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sarah0809

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In the UnCut video with NO and LP talking about LP's progression learning to sail Moths, NO suggests that after 15 days LP can do some of the maneuvers but is still not race-ready; and he likens it to the time it will take the team to learn to foil their AC72 properly.

 

I bet they go out in only light conditions during their first several sail days, perhaps get a couple of morning hours in before it starts to really kick out there.

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In the UnCut video with NO and LP talking about LP's progression learning to sail Moths, NO suggests that after 15 days LP can do some of the maneuvers but is still not race-ready; and he likens it to the time it will take the team to learn to foil their AC72 properly.

 

I bet they go out in only light conditions during their first several sail days, perhaps get a couple of morning hours in before it starts to really kick out there.

There are 20 days before the start of the Semis. So if they need 15 days to get ready they will need to launch soon and use EVERY day to train. Right now they have 5 days to burn, and I know that there is not a 15 days = "some set of skills to sail an AC72 in race ready mode" But assuming the time line from above, they have no time to be picky. I am sure they will be, can't take the boat out in 22+ the first day, but IMO they have very little time to waste and will still very likely be far from ready to race.

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In the UnCut video with NO and LP talking about LP's progression learning to sail Moths, NO suggests that after 15 days LP can do some of the maneuvers but is still not race-ready; and he likens it to the time it will take the team to learn to foil their AC72 properly.

 

I bet they go out in only light conditions during their first several sail days, perhaps get a couple of morning hours in before it starts to really kick out there.

There are 20 days before the start of the Semis. So if they need 15 days to get ready they will need to launch soon and use EVERY day to train. Right now they have 5 days to burn, and I know that there is not a 15 days = "some set of skills to sail an AC72 in race ready mode" But assuming the time line from above, they have no time to be picky. I am sure they will be, can't take the boat out in 22+ the first day, but IMO they have very little time to waste and will still very likely be far from ready to race.

Yep, I doubt we will see them pulling off flybes any time soon... Just finishing a race while showing respectable speed would or will be a victory for them.

 

Anyway, the '15 days' for 'the time it will take the team to learn to foil their AC72 properly' may well have been a jump by me above. Here it is in case it was not posted yet.

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XG02E04Oc60

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This boat will go down as one of the most scrutinized in AC history, and for good reason. Just hope its fast as well.

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The quote on FB was that they were load testing for a single hull PP. Doesn't the load on the hull go the other way in a port hull PP? Or are they saying this is the load on the port hull when the starboard hull PP's? And if so how does the load get all the way out there?

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I think they should just go out and race instead of just sailing by themselves.

What better practice is there than sailing against your competitors?

Every coach out there will say sailing is the sport where we practice less and compete more than any other sport. Racing is terrible for practice. Practice is doing the same thing over and over.

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In the UnCut video with NO and LP talking about LP's progression learning to sail Moths, NO suggests that after 15 days LP can do some of the maneuvers but is still not race-ready; and he likens it to the time it will take the team to learn to foil their AC72 properly.

 

I bet they go out in only light conditions during their first several sail days, perhaps get a couple of morning hours in before it starts to really kick out there.

 

Comparing the learning curves of a single-handed, debugged Moth against a unique and untested wingsailed AC72 having 11+ crew and systems 100x more complex is ridiculous.

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This boat will go down as one of the most scrutinized in AC history, and for good reason. Just hope its fast as well.

 

I reckon it's still got a bit to go to catch up with KZ-7... how many holes did they drill in that hull during competition?

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From the race commentary today;

AR have finished their load testing

Looking at going racing next week

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In the UnCut video with NO and LP talking about LP's progression learning to sail Moths, NO suggests that after 15 days LP can do some of the maneuvers but is still not race-ready; and he likens it to the time it will take the team to learn to foil their AC72 properly.

 

I bet they go out in only light conditions during their first several sail days, perhaps get a couple of morning hours in before it starts to really kick out there.

 

Comparing the learning curves of a single-handed, debugged Moth against a unique and untested wingsailed AC72 having 11+ crew and systems 100x more complex is ridiculous.

As is learning to sail an AC72 from videos.

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Yet they were able to design and launch a foiling AC45 in a month and within 2 weeks were schooling Oracle, boat to boat, who had theirs over a year. Now I would never say that they are going to win this thing, and they will not be ready to defeat ENTZ, but I think they will surprise a lot a people in just how fast they get a handle on the blue boat. And LP is not Moth race ready compared to what? The 2011 Moth World Champion? The smile on LP's face leads me to believe NO may be down playing LP's skills just a bit.

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13_041006_LVC2013.jpg

 

Same photo from AR website.

 

O

Looks like a Dart on this side :)

^^^ :)

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Notice that the Dart logo is the right side. Learning from experience ? :huh:

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Launch on 22nd implies that MM needs to polish his lens; AR must be righting the boat this week.

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I hope the AR team is able to redeem themselves at least somewhat and put on a good showing.

 

I don't understand the hatred for AR here. Blame the generals for leading them into a trap, and outfitting them with guns that misfire, but you can't hate on the foot solders caught in that situation.

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I hope the AR team is able to redeem themselves at least somewhat and put on a good showing.

 

I don't understand the hatred for AR here. Blame the generals for leading them into a trap, and outfitting them with guns that misfire, but you can't hate on the foot solders caught in that situation.

 

got me beat as well?? It sounds to me like most people on this forum are far better sailors than this "PC fellow"

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Launch on 22nd implies that MM needs to polish his lens; AR must be righting the boat this week.

 

They re-flipped it over the weekend.

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Have we seen AR's W3? I'm hoping it has an interesting feature that I suggested to one of their designers (doubt it, but I can hope).

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the description text:

--

Artemis Racing AC72 Update 11 - Structural Testing

by artemisteam

 

Throughout the last week we flipped our second AC72, completed comprehensive structural testing, turned it back upright and we're now into the final stages of assembling the boat for its debut next week.

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Just heard a few bits of info from two different sources:

 

The blue boat was built exactly like the red boat

The crew is afraid to sail on it (or wont sail on it unitl it is proven structurally sound)

To reinforce the boat, the hulls have been covered with two layers of carbon, re-faired and painted.

The boat won't meet the minimum weight. (was the added weight in the safety rule written speciffically for this reason)

Just about every good carbon race boatbuilder has been involved in the reinforcement job.

The boat doesn't have a chance of being competitive and probably won't measure in.

Juan K was fired.

The team is a mess and people are pretty much done with the whole thing.

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The big surprise is why TT is still dipping into his wallet this late in the piece. Unless he's laundering money :ph34r:

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I don't think its a given that this has been more extreme testing than others.

I thought the gist of the 'give AR your load cases' was that others had been doing much more thorough testing than Artemis had done.

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Just heard a few bits of info from two different sources:

 

The blue boat was built exactly like the red boat

The crew is afraid to sail on it (or wont sail on it unitl it is proven structurally sound)

To reinforce the boat, the hulls have been covered with two layers of carbon, re-faired and painted.

The boat won't meet the minimum weight. (was the added weight in the safety rule written speciffically for this reason)

Just about every good carbon race boatbuilder has been involved in the reinforcement job.

The boat doesn't have a chance of being competitive and probably won't measure in.

Juan K was fired.

The team is a mess and people are pretty much done with the whole thing.

That agrees with previous scuttlebutt. What a complete and total disaster.

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Plenty of room for knockers to take their best shot at Artemis.

 

And they clearly are.

 

I'm happy to wait and see how the new boat performs.

 

However, with the clock running out, it's clear than Don Paulo Cayardi is on a quest that will eclipse the exploits of Alonso Quijano and his buddy Sancho Panza.

 

What I really want to comment on though is this video.

 

Big-time props to Artemis for a nifty production and the best behind-the-scenes expose we've seen from any team.

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Could you imagine the wailing if AR put a whuppin' on ETNZ in a race right out of the box?

 

DB is too good a match racer to let them get him on the start, like the schooling he gave to CD the other day.

 

 

But it would be fun to see...................................

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Just amazing how f'd up the Artemis program has been. Wrong wing. Wrong platform. Wrong assumption about foiling. Wrong foils. Firing Hutch. Bad beam construction. Disaster on the water. Hopelessly late for LVC. Even the wrong color for chrissakes. Total cluster fuck.

 

That said, I still hope they go out for a good showing. But not holding my breath...

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Could you imagine the wailing if AR put a whuppin' on ETNZ in a race right out of the box?

 

DB is too good a match racer to let them get him on the start, like the schooling he gave to CD the other day.

 

 

But it would be fun to see...................................

Not as much of a wailing as when LR puts the whupping on OR! The difference is, though, I can see LR doing it to OR before hell freezes over to let AR get near ETNZ.

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Just amazing how f'd up the Artemis program has been.

Wrong wing.

Wrong platform.

Wrong assumption about foiling.

Wrong foils.

Firing Hutch.

Bad beam construction.

Disaster on the water.

Hopelessly late for LVC.

Even the wrong color for chrissakes.

Total cluster fuck.

 

......

 

as they used to say about Idi Amin "nobodies perfect"

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Yes it would be great to see AR back on the water and racing but is just non sensical drivel to think that they can get the practice in and the refinement to systems etc done before the start of the LVC semifinals.

 

The scariest thing was that video of NO talking about how he learnt to sail the Moth via video in the first instance and was able to put that into practice very quickly on the water. The comparison of learning to sail a foiling moth and an AC72 beggars belief and really points to an immature guy a long way out of his depth...yes he is the standout helm of his generation but the step from a 49er to helm (while IP might be the skipper once the boat is racing it is the helm who is driving the bus) of a fully crewed, wing masted, foiling AC 72 is some quantums....yes I know he has been sailing around in a semi foiler for a few weeks but we saw where that finished up, the AC 45"s are a grat trainer but clearly have much greater safety margins than a 72...and the thing about learning to sail the Moth is that any errors just result in a swim.

 

The idea that the sailors will know if they are ready and are professinals and will make the right call sounds great but is it true and do they have the competnece to make that call because you don" t know what you don"t know?

 

If reports are to be believed the AR 1 failure was not structural or anything to do with gear failure, so in pretty benign 18 kts (may be a puff to 23kts) they tip it in, they weren't foiling, just a bearaway....so therefore it was helm/crew error i.e. a training accident...where were the professionals recognising the dangers of their programme then?

 

 

So they go from that, straight to the full kit, and are going to step it up slowly (are they heading down to San Diego or Valencia for the first week?) then slowly build to 10-15 knots ( from afar it looks like there might of been two days in the last ten with those conditions wre in SF) them wammo all good to enter a start box in 18- 20 kts, it is a laughable strategy if the stakes were not so high

 

It easy to see why IM put the whole LVC/AC programme at risk and to some serious loss of credibility and put in place his 37 point plan which it is now clear was all to the feet of trying to save AR from themselves

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Can someone tell me why these guys ar even bothering? Do they really have a realistic chance? GD doesn't even rate then, heck even giving them their allowance to use those funny rudders.

 

So why are they here then?

 

Are they the work of Larry to do his dirty work?

Are they really a formidable team?

 

I just don't understand why they are even bothering now or ever unless there is something deeper going on here

 

Go on, shoot me down call me stupid but I just don't get it. They just seem hopeless forfeiting all these races?

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Yes it would be great to see AR back on the water and racing but is just non sensical drivel to think that they can get the practice in and the refinement to systems etc done before the start of the LVC semifinals.

 

The scariest thing was that video of NO talking about how he learnt to sail the Moth via video in the first instance and was able to put that into practice very quickly on the water. The comparison of learning to sail a foiling moth and an AC72 beggars belief and really points to an immature guy a long way out of his depth...yes he is the standout helm of his generation but the step from a 49er to helm (while IP might be the skipper once the boat is racing it is the helm who is driving the bus) of a fully crewed, wing masted, foiling AC 72 is some quantums....yes I know he has been sailing around in a semi foiler for a few weeks but we saw where that finished up, the AC 45"s are a grat trainer but clearly have much greater safety margins than a 72...and the thing about learning to sail the Moth is that any errors just result in a swim.

 

The idea that the sailors will know if they are ready and are professinals and will make the right call sounds great but is it true and do they have the competnece to make that call because you don" t know what you don"t know?

 

If reports are to be believed the AR 1 failure was not structural or anything to do with gear failure, so in pretty benign 18 kts (may be a puff to 23kts) they tip it in, they weren't foiling, just a bearaway....so therefore it was helm/crew error i.e. a training accident...where were the professionals recognising the dangers of their programme then?

 

 

So they go from that, straight to the full kit, and are going to step it up slowly (are they heading down to San Diego or Valencia for the first week?) then slowly build to 10-15 knots ( from afar it looks like there might of been two days in the last ten with those conditions wre in SF) them wammo all good to enter a start box in 18- 20 kts, it is a laughable strategy if the stakes were not so high

 

It easy to see why IM put the whole LVC/AC programme at risk and to some serious loss of credibility and put in place his 37 point plan which it is now clear was all to the feet of trying to save AR from themselves

+1

 

Too late with too little which I say with a heavy heart and the utmost respect.

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Reasons to bother for the crew(in no particular order)

 

1. In a couple of months time the 72' foiling cats will be grounded and the chance to sail anything like it will realistically be a professional lifetime away.

2. They get paid a lot of money to sail.

 

Reasons to continue for Cayard.

 

1. He gets paid to sail.

2. His contract probably gives him a bonus if the make the LVC final and there is always a chance LR will have a problem

3. Dropping out would mean taking responsibility for his poor management.

 

Reasons to continue for Tornqvist.

 

1. Ego

2. Its only money and the cost to play for a few more weeks pales in proportion to what has already been spent/wasted.

3. Because he has been feed a line that they can still be competitive (hard to believe)

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From GD's point of view it's all about goodwill .. if AR get this boat going they are more likely to turn up when the next contest is held in Auckland ..

 

Aside from that it's just possible that AR will have some feature that no one else thought of and that can be used in the next cup also .. better to have such features on the table now than be surprised in 3 or 4 years ..

 

I see no downside if AR competes .. they clearly wont get close enough to cause any trouble .

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Launch on 22nd implies that MM needs to polish his lens; AR must be righting the boat this week.

They re-flipped it over the weekend.

Thanks. Looking fwd to seeing (video/pics) of it.

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The AR program has been an utter disaster from the beginning

1. Design

2. Build

3. Sail

4. Personnel

 

So why should they continue?

 

Bart.

 

It was his dream to sail these. They are doing it for him. And for that they have my total support

 

We all know they will not be competitive. LR and TNZ will toast them.

 

But they will be on the course sailing, and maybe a bit of foiling. It will be a very short sailing campaign with just a handful of races. It will be tough for them, but they will go around the course and then hold their heads high. Yes there is no second, but to honor a mate by finishing means more than anything else.

 

They will finish the regatta and then TT will slash and burn and put the right people in place for AC35.

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Given the hate in here I can only assume PC has done to you what RC did to EB. Now watch the kiwi hate machine firing on all twelve...

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Just heard a few bits of info from two different sources:

 

The blue boat was built exactly like the red boat

The crew is afraid to sail on it (or wont sail on it unitl it is proven structurally sound)

To reinforce the boat, the hulls have been covered with two layers of carbon, re-faired and painted.

The boat won't meet the minimum weight. (was the added weight in the safety rule written speciffically for this reason)

Just about every good carbon race boatbuilder has been involved in the reinforcement job.

The boat doesn't have a chance of being competitive and probably won't measure in.

Juan K was fired.

The team is a mess and people are pretty much done with the whole thing.

What exactly does wrapping the hulls in 2 more 'layers' of carbon do?

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Given the hate in here I can only assume PC has done to you what RC did to EB. Now watch the kiwi hate machine firing on all twelve...

There's nothing to hate about AR. We just want them to fade away and disappear before they become a danger to someone else...

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These guys are sailors. That's why.

 

What high performance sailor wouldn't give their left nut to sail one of these beasts? Even if you are 5kts off the pace - it still would be a ride to remember. And, on someone else's wallet!

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Given the hate in here I can only assume PC has done to you what RC did to EB. Now watch the kiwi hate machine firing on all twelve...

No hate at all. Do you think PC has done a good job running AR ??

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Just heard a few bits of info from two different sources:

 

The blue boat was built exactly like the red boat

The crew is afraid to sail on it (or wont sail on it unitl it is proven structurally sound)

To reinforce the boat, the hulls have been covered with two layers of carbon, re-faired and painted.

The boat won't meet the minimum weight. (was the added weight in the safety rule written speciffically for this reason)

Just about every good carbon race boatbuilder has been involved in the reinforcement job.

The boat doesn't have a chance of being competitive and probably won't measure in.

Juan K was fired.

The team is a mess and people are pretty much done with the whole thing.

What exactly does wrapping the hulls in 2 more 'layers' of carbon do?

Quick weight calc on two extra layers...

 

- Rough (and conservative) guess of 100m2 surface area for the two hulls.

- say 300gsm carbon x 2

- 40% resin

= ~90kg before fairing and painting

 

Why you would do this around a aluminium honeycomb core, which would have been designed with a balanced laminate, who knows. I would be guessing they would need more than 100kg extra weight allowance if the story is true.

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Just heard a few bits of info from two different sources:

 

The blue boat was built exactly like the red boat

The crew is afraid to sail on it (or wont sail on it unitl it is proven structurally sound)

To reinforce the boat, the hulls have been covered with two layers of carbon, re-faired and painted.

The boat won't meet the minimum weight. (was the added weight in the safety rule written speciffically for this reason)

Just about every good carbon race boatbuilder has been involved in the reinforcement job.

The boat doesn't have a chance of being competitive and probably won't measure in.

Juan K was fired.

The team is a mess and people are pretty much done with the whole thing.

What exactly does wrapping the hulls in 2 more 'layers' of carbon do?

Quick weight calc on two extra layers...

 

- Rough (and conservative) guess of 100m2 surface area for the two hulls.

- say 300gsm carbon x 2

- 40% resin

= ~90kg before fairing and painting

 

Why you would do this around a aluminium honeycomb core, which would have been designed with a balanced laminate, who knows. I would be guessing they would need more than 100kg extra weight allowance if the story is true.

Exactly my point, I'm gonna call bullshit on that one.

 

Re-inforcing the skins all over will be pretty pointless, beefing up round the beam connections however?? :)

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The AR program has been an utter disaster from the beginning

1. Design

2. Build

3. Sail

4. Personnel

I don't really believe they could be so wrong in every aspect. I suspect that either design or built was a complete mess, leading to sailing, personnel, schedule issues... etc..

I think that poor design was the starting point of all their problems: The whole project definitively failed when JK put his final signature to the drawings.

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Given the hate in here I can only assume PC has done to you what RC did to EB. Now watch the kiwi hate machine firing on all twelve...

No hate at all. Do you think PC has done a good job running AR ??

Exactly my point, the focus is on PC, why must the Artemis sailing crew endure quotes like "We just want them to fade away and disappear before they become a danger to someone else..."?

 

The Artemis sailing crew skill exceeds most if not all the other teams. DB, JS and BA doesn't have shit on NO when it comes to apparent wind sailing, add the multihull background of LP.

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Given the hate in here I can only assume PC has done to you what RC did to EB. Now watch the kiwi hate machine firing on all twelve...

No hate at all. Do you think PC has done a good job running AR ??

Exactly my point, the focus is on PC, why must the Artemis sailing crew endure quotes like "We just want them to fade away and disappear before they become a danger to someone else..."?

 

The Artemis sailing crew skill exceeds most if not all the other teams. DB, JS and BA doesn't have shit on NO when it comes to apparent wind sailing, add the multihull background of LP.

 

I don't think people are picking on the crew .. you are right .. they are a very talented group of sailors but the Artemis team has let them down by delivering their complex boat just too late for them to learn how to sail it to it's full potential ..

 

PC happens to be the leader of that team so it is inevitable that he will be held responsible .

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The hope is if they can string a few good things in a row. A good launch, a good sail, some foiling, maybe they hit 40knots, than they race and hope they can make around the course. If they can finish a race within 5mins of LP or ETNZ its a win. If they can do all that they will turn some heads because of potential. That will scare some people, because they have nothing to lose.

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Given the hate in here I can only assume PC has done to you what RC did to EB. Now watch the kiwi hate machine firing on all twelve...

 

No hate at all. Do you think PC has done a good job running AR ??
Exactly my point, the focus is on PC, why must the Artemis sailing crew endure quotes like "We just want them to fade away and disappear before they become a danger to someone else..."?

 

The Artemis sailing crew skill exceeds most if not all the other teams. DB, JS and BA doesn't have shit on NO when it comes to apparent wind sailing, add the multihull background of LP.

Yep well plenty of people are very unhappy with AR, Andrew Simpson should not have died and Paul Cayard has blood on his hands.

 

As for the AR crew, yes they are probably the equal of the other teams but when compared to those teams AR has had almost no time on the water and no time foiling an AC 72 and they are now required to get up to speed with about 10-12 days practice....who is the genius that thinks that is a reakistic strategy?

 

Although OR have RC, JS and Murray Jones a pretty pwerful triumverant, ETNZ have the kiwi team thing going on with help from Glen Ashby and both ETNZ and OR have dezigned and built brilliant boats.

 

As for Nathan, yes he is a great helm, but it is light years from running around two handed in a 49 er, and there are many brilliant apparent wind helms around considering most of the grand prix classes are all in that state now, VOR, OMRA, varios multis, skiffs, melges, soto, Vendee, etc, etc. JS, RC, DB all come via the centreboards, but now have 10-20 years experience on big boats, with large crews in full on development mode, NO might make it bit it won't be this year

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I have been offline for almost the past week (traveling to San Francisco) and have a question. First, let me apologize for this request if the answer is easily available here or in another thread. Now that I have access to the internet again I have tried to wade through most of the relevant threads and have not found the answer. I am posting my question here because I believe the biggest source of confusion or the biggest impact lies with Artemis.

 

What is the current state of the rudder requirements? Do the parties have to have rudder elevators that meet the larger area requirements put in by Iain Murray or are the original class rules in effect? IIRC, Paul Cayard indicated that Artemis has foiling rudders that meet the original class rules (and eric e posted a nice confirming picture of that). Can Artemis use those rudders or must they come up with foils that do not exceed Bmax but that also meet Iain Murray's larger area requirements (what Paul Cayard referred to as the "third option")

 

Again, my apologies if this has already been answered.

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Just heard a few bits of info from two different sources:

 

The blue boat was built exactly like the red boat

The crew is afraid to sail on it (or wont sail on it unitl it is proven structurally sound)

To reinforce the boat, the hulls have been covered with two layers of carbon, re-faired and painted.

The boat won't meet the minimum weight. (was the added weight in the safety rule written speciffically for this reason)

Just about every good carbon race boatbuilder has been involved in the reinforcement job.

The boat doesn't have a chance of being competitive and probably won't measure in.

Juan K was fired.

The team is a mess and people are pretty much done with the whole thing.

What exactly does wrapping the hulls in 2 more 'layers' of carbon do?

I'm calling BS on this. I could understand adding some longitudinal stiffeners and maybe some extra bulkheads, but wrapping the hulls in new layers makes no sense to me.

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Given the hate in here I can only assume PC has done to you what RC did to EB. Now watch the kiwi hate machine firing on all twelve...

No hate at all. Do you think PC has done a good job running AR ??
Exactly my point, the focus is on PC, why must the Artemis sailing crew endure quotes like "We just want them to fade away and disappear before they become a danger to someone else..."?

 

The Artemis sailing crew skill exceeds most if not all the other teams. DB, JS and BA doesn't have shit on NO when it comes to apparent wind sailing, add the multihull background of LP.

Yep well plenty of people are very unhappy with AR, Andrew Simpson should not have died and Paul Cayard has blood on his hands.

 

As for the AR crew, yes they are probably the equal of the other teams but when compared to those teams AR has had almost no time on the water and no time foiling an AC 72 and they are now required to get up to speed with about 10-12 days practice....who is the genius that thinks that is a reakistic strategy?

 

Although OR have RC, JS and Murray Jones a pretty pwerful triumverant, ETNZ have the kiwi team thing going on with help from Glen Ashby and both ETNZ and OR have dezigned and built brilliant boats.

 

As for Nathan, yes he is a great helm, but it is light years from running around two handed in a 49 er, and there are many brilliant apparent wind helms around considering most of the grand prix classes are all in that state now, VOR, OMRA, varios multis, skiffs, melges, soto, Vendee, etc, etc. JS, RC, DB all come via the centreboards, but now have 10-20 years experience on big boats, with large crews in full on development mode, NO might make it bit it won't be this year

Tell me JS "centreboard" results? Oh that is right. None.

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I went to base show and tell let me say this to all the Go homers here . No one said they would be competitive , Cayard and Outteridge both strongly noted they are not fooling themselves .

The Boat must pass the stress data before floating or sailing .

 

They have a foiling attitude simulator they have been practicing on . Something other teams didn't have . Watching the last Race between LR and NZ its not impossible to win a flight .

Speed is the key in Gybes and Tacks .

 

The Team is a competitive bunch of world class triple A sailors . From observations Cayard is more involving the whole team in decisions.Management , Build , Etc.

I would not be surprised they beat LR in at least one .

 

Lets remember as well he who pushes harder may be pushing carbon back into a plane and not challenging for any cups.

this design the AC 72 forgives no one and will most likely see a failure before all this is over and I doubt it will be the big blue boat .

 

My visit gave me new insights to the Ar teams efforts, and believe me they are not in vain and should gather respect from all sailors worldwide . As well as their new almost open door policy at base camp .

No one is forgiving or forgetting the lose of bart this effort almost and you can feel it is in his honor and memory . There doing things right there doing it better and they're doing it safer .

 

And if you were not there first hand to see it keep your comments in your hat . Been enough AR bashing and its now time to support some world class guys .

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Don't hold your breath. The AR bashing will most likely continue until they get themselves over a finish line within 5 minutes of ETNZ or LR.

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The AR program has been an utter disaster from the beginning

1. Design

2. Build

3. Sail

4. Personnel

 

So why should they continue?

 

Bart.

 

It was his dream to sail these. They are doing it for him. And for that they have my total support

 

We all know they will not be competitive. LR and TNZ will toast them.

 

But they will be on the course sailing, and maybe a bit of foiling. It will be a very short sailing campaign with just a handful of races. It will be tough for them, but they will go around the course and then hold their heads high. Yes there is no second, but to honor a mate by finishing means more than anything else.

 

They will finish the regatta and then TT will slash and burn and put the right people in place for AC35.

+1, says it all!

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Given the hate in here I can only assume PC has done to you what RC did to EB. Now watch the kiwi hate machine firing on all twelve...

I think that a lot of us are frustrated from AR not being able to present a decent challenge. What good have we seen serious yet ?

Waiting to see B2 on the water:

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Calico Jack, on 17 Jul 2013 - 14:10, said:

Yep well plenty of people are very unhappy with AR, Andrew Simpson should not have died and Paul Cayard has blood on his hands.

 

I think that is very unfair. I'm no fan of Cayard, but the boat failed, and outside of perhaps two or three designers who worked in that area, and who were working with only educated guesses as to loads, I don't think you can point the finger at people who didn't do the analysis and design. No project outside of moonshots, cars and commercial aircraft can afford multiple analyses and reviews of every area. And in a development class it is just not possible to do exhaustive analysis of all possible failure modes.

 

Andrew Simpson was really unlucky, probably no one else aboard with worse than bruises. It could have happened (and still could) to an Oracle or LR or ETNZ team member just as easily.

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I went to base show and tell let me say this to all the Go homers here . No one said they would be competitive , Cayard and Outteridge both strongly noted they are not fooling themselves .

The Boat must pass the stress data before floating or sailing .

 

They have a foiling attitude simulator they have been practicing on . Something other teams didn't have . Watching the last Race between LR and NZ its not impossible to win a flight .

Speed is the key in Gybes and Tacks .

 

The Team is a competitive bunch of world class triple A sailors . From observations Cayard is more involving the whole team in decisions.Management , Build , Etc.

I would not be surprised they beat LR in at least one .

 

Lets remember as well he who pushes harder may be pushing carbon back into a plane and not challenging for any cups.

this design the AC 72 forgives no one and will most likely see a failure before all this is over and I doubt it will be the big blue boat .

 

My visit gave me new insights to the Ar teams efforts, and believe me they are not in vain and should gather respect from all sailors worldwide . As well as their new almost open door policy at base camp .

No one is forgiving or forgetting the lose of bart this effort almost and you can feel it is in his honor and memory . There doing things right there doing it better and they're doing it safer .

 

And if you were not there first hand to see it keep your comments in your hat . Been enough AR bashing and its now time to support some world class guys .

ICUP

 

thanks for report and glad to hear it -I wish them the best of luck and respect them for moving forward -

 

as best they can after that tragic accident -

 

I support their efforts and I think all here do also -I believe the bashing has been on ceo cayard or things

 

he did or didnt do -or from his lack of performance/ duties as ceo etc which I do agree he hasnt done properly -

 

so any artemis bashing wasnt directed at ''TEAM'' as much as the cayard -juan k - failure

 

we are not always specific on posts but I can assure you most here dont fault the sailors or team at all

 

the so called ''team leadership'' under cayard just looks pathetic -and gets hammered here accordingly -

 

team deserves all the respect -maybe cayard has a better direction as you state -

 

thanks -cheers

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Just heard a few bits of info from two different sources:

 

The blue boat was built exactly like the red boat

The crew is afraid to sail on it (or wont sail on it unitl it is proven structurally sound)

To reinforce the boat, the hulls have been covered with two layers of carbon, re-faired and painted.

The boat won't meet the minimum weight. (was the added weight in the safety rule written speciffically for this reason)

Just about every good carbon race boatbuilder has been involved in the reinforcement job.

The boat doesn't have a chance of being competitive and probably won't measure in.

Juan K was fired.

The team is a mess and people are pretty much done with the whole thing.

 

Well, that is a hell of a reference. MUST all be true.

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Yes it would be great to see AR back on the water and racing but is just non sensical drivel to think that they can get the practice in and the refinement to systems etc done before the start of the LVC semifinals.

 

The scariest thing was that video of NO talking about how he learnt to sail the Moth via video in the first instance and was able to put that into practice very quickly on the water. The comparison of learning to sail a foiling moth and an AC72 beggars belief and really points to an immature guy a long way out of his depth...yes he is the standout helm of his generation but the step from a 49er to helm (while IP might be the skipper once the boat is racing it is the helm who is driving the bus) of a fully crewed, wing masted, foiling AC 72 is some quantums....yes I know he has been sailing around in a semi foiler for a few weeks but we saw where that finished up, the AC 45"s are a grat trainer but clearly have much greater safety margins than a 72...and the thing about learning to sail the Moth is that any errors just result in a swim.

 

The idea that the sailors will know if they are ready and are professinals and will make the right call sounds great but is it true and do they have the competnece to make that call because you don" t know what you don"t know?

 

If reports are to be believed the AR 1 failure was not structural or anything to do with gear failure, so in pretty benign 18 kts (may be a puff to 23kts) they tip it in, they weren't foiling, just a bearaway....so therefore it was helm/crew error i.e. a training accident...where were the professionals recognising the dangers of their programme then?

 

 

So they go from that, straight to the full kit, and are going to step it up slowly (are they heading down to San Diego or Valencia for the first week?) then slowly build to 10-15 knots ( from afar it looks like there might of been two days in the last ten with those conditions wre in SF) them wammo all good to enter a start box in 18- 20 kts, it is a laughable strategy if the stakes were not so high

 

It easy to see why IM put the whole LVC/AC programme at risk and to some serious loss of credibility and put in place his 37 point plan which it is now clear was all to the feet of trying to save AR from themselves

 

I don't believe that you can say that the Artemis crash did not have to do with structural failure. It did, whether or not the actual crash was caused by gear failure, or the crash caused the failure, either way, that boat absolutely should not have broken apart as it did, and it was the break-apart that killed Simpson.

 

From the sounds of it, the Blue Boat has been engineered (either originally, or after the crash) to be much stronger, and has been tested much more, to the point where it has been tested beyond any likely on-water action. So, with that in mind, I believe the crew's opinion of whether they would be ready to race or not is absolutely good.

 

By the way, I don't believe the BS that the crew is universally/or nearly universally afraid to sail this boat, or whatever Mister Authority JohnMoon and others like him have said. There are enough guys on this team that were very close friends with Simpson that are forging on, having seen what that disaster did, and I do not believe those guys would be going on if they were truly afraid to sail on the boat.

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The AR program has been an utter disaster from the beginning

1. Design

2. Build

3. Sail

4. Personnel

 

So why should they continue?

 

Bart.

 

It was his dream to sail these. They are doing it for him. And for that they have my total support

 

We all know they will not be competitive. LR and TNZ will toast them.

 

But they will be on the course sailing, and maybe a bit of foiling. It will be a very short sailing campaign with just a handful of races. It will be tough for them, but they will go around the course and then hold their heads high. Yes there is no second, but to honor a mate by finishing means more than anything else.

 

They will finish the regatta and then TT will slash and burn and put the right people in place for AC35.

 

^This.

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Just heard a few bits of info from two different sources:

 

The blue boat was built exactly like the red boat

The crew is afraid to sail on it (or wont sail on it unitl it is proven structurally sound)

To reinforce the boat, the hulls have been covered with two layers of carbon, re-faired and painted.

The boat won't meet the minimum weight. (was the added weight in the safety rule written speciffically for this reason)

Just about every good carbon race boatbuilder has been involved in the reinforcement job.

The boat doesn't have a chance of being competitive and probably won't measure in.

Juan K was fired.

The team is a mess and people are pretty much done with the whole thing.

What exactly does wrapping the hulls in 2 more 'layers' of carbon do?

 

Are you actually believing this guy?

 

First of all, the very first line completely discounts any validity for the rest of his post: "The blue boat was built exactly like the red boat". The only line with any potential validity from his post is that JuanK may have been canned.

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Reasons to bother for the crew(in no particular order)1. In a couple of months time the 72' foiling cats will be grounded and the chance to sail anything like it will realistically be a professional lifetime away.2. They get paid a lot of money to sail.Reasons to continue for Cayard.1. He gets paid to sail.2. His contract probably gives him a bonus if the make the LVC final and there is always a chance LR will have a problem3. Dropping out would mean taking responsibility for his poor management.Reasons to continue for Tornqvist.1. Ego2. Its only money and the cost to play for a few more weeks pales in proportion to what has already been spent/wasted.3. Because he has been feed a line that they can still be competitive (hard to believe)

what about the fact that they're not quitters? Everything we've all been saying for the last 6 weeks?

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How is this for a scenario?

1. TNZ wins AC34

2. LE decides he has done his time in the AC world (must have splashed $700m+ over some years)

3. OR disband

4. TT hires RC

5. AR is reborn for AC35

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Just heard a few bits of info from two different sources:

 

The blue boat was built exactly like the red boat

The crew is afraid to sail on it (or wont sail on it unitl it is proven structurally sound)

To reinforce the boat, the hulls have been covered with two layers of carbon, re-faired and painted.

The boat won't meet the minimum weight. (was the added weight in the safety rule written speciffically for this reason)

Just about every good carbon race boatbuilder has been involved in the reinforcement job.

The boat doesn't have a chance of being competitive and probably won't measure in.

Juan K was fired.

The team is a mess and people are pretty much done with the whole thing.

What exactly does wrapping the hulls in 2 more 'layers' of carbon do?

 

Are you actually believing this guy?

 

First of all, the very first line completely discounts any validity for the rest of his post: "The blue boat was built exactly like the red boat". The only line with any potential validity from his post is that JuanK may have been canned.

 

One of the sources is at the very top of the build team for another syndicate.

 

The other source was brought in and worked on the project for several weeks and was one of the head builders that built all the A Cubed boats, Pact 95 and Young America.

 

Lines 1, 2 3, 4 and 5 are exact quotes.

 

Forgot another quote - "dozens of people are out in Alemeda from King Marine, the original builder".

 

Why shouldnt any of the the above be true? You can see the length of delay for yourself. The boat was delivered right before Bart was killed. What have they been doing? It has to be reinforcement of the platform.

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How is this for a scenario?

1. TNZ wins AC34

2. LE decides he has done his time in the AC world (must have splashed $700m+ over some years)

3. OR disband

4. TT hires RC

5. AR is reborn for AC35

 

 

I'm cool with that, but wouldn't be surprised if GD shuts RC out with the nationality card.

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Exactly my point, the focus is on PC, why must the Artemis sailing crew endure quotes like "We just want them to fade away and disappear before they become a danger to someone else..."?

 

The Artemis sailing crew skill exceeds most if not all the other teams. DB, JS and BA doesn't have shit on NO when it comes to apparent wind sailing, add the multihull background of LP.

Don't confuse the foot soldiers with the generals in AR who should be whipped and put in jail for failing as CoR. The sailors are getting paid under employment contracts which are likely to be very penal if they withdrew or spoke out. Looking at those videos and pictures, who is building the boats - are the sailors also doubling as boat builders? Who's in charge of the design mods if JK is not around? Or are the other 3 Competitors providing all the necessary technical input and advice on what to do and how to do it?

 

If that's the case, it simply reinforces the criticism that they should just retire gracefully now: it's simply too pathetic to contemplate the other Competitors helping them out in a manner totally alien to the cut-throat world of America's Cup. What next - swap boards, rudders, wings?!!? How-to notes from Barker and Max?? Fucking pathetic...

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What is the current state of the rudder requirements? Do the parties have to have rudder elevators that meet the larger area requirements put in by Iain Murray or are the original class rules in effect? IIRC, Paul Cayard indicated that Artemis has foiling rudders that meet the original class rules (and eric e posted a nice confirming picture of that). Can Artemis use those rudders or must they come up with foils that do not exceed Bmax but that also meet Iain Murray's larger area requirements (what Paul Cayard referred to as the "third option")

 

it looks like AR are now free to use the small assyms seen in the NO video

 

IM would like them to use bigger ones but as LR won't budge on the exemption and AR are happy to use the smaller ones

 

if AR sign all the disclaimers taking any heat off IM in the event of another PP

 

they are all go for rudders!

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hat is the current state of the rudder requirements? Do the parties have to have rudder elevators that meet the larger area requirements put in by Iain Murray or are the original class rules in effect? IIRC, Paul Cayard indicated that Artemis has foiling rudders that meet the original class rules (and eric e posted a nice confirming picture of that). Can Artemis use those rudders or must they come up with foils that do not exceed Bmax but that also meet Iain Murray's larger area requirements (what Paul Cayard referred to as the "third option")

 

Again, my apologies if this has already been answered.

The original AC72 Class Rules are now in force, so no minimum areas, 1-metre rudder stock maximum distance from stern restored, symmetric or assymetric but no sticking outside beam, etc. According to Cayard they have CR-compliant rudders, Murray Class Rules-compliant rudders, but not "ETNZ"-third-mode-unfriendly-fucking-Dalton-just-wants-to-eliminate-us rudders. Oh, and when unfriendly-just-wants-to-eliminate-us-fucking-Dalton offered special dispensation for them to race with the Murray-Class-Rules rudders, LR said "Non!!, you thinka we AR stupida!?!"

In short, AR ar a bit fucked - still.

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I went to base show and tell let me say this to all the Go homers here . No one said they would be competitive , Cayard and Outteridge both strongly noted they are not fooling themselves .

The Boat must pass the stress data before floating or sailing .

 

They have a foiling attitude simulator they have been practicing on . Something other teams didn't have . Watching the last Race between LR and NZ its not impossible to win a flight .

Speed is the key in Gybes and Tacks .

 

The Team is a competitive bunch of world class triple A sailors . From observations Cayard is more involving the whole team in decisions.Management , Build , Etc.

I would not be surprised they beat LR in at least one .

 

Lets remember as well he who pushes harder may be pushing carbon back into a plane and not challenging for any cups.

this design the AC 72 forgives no one and will most likely see a failure before all this is over and I doubt it will be the big blue boat .

 

My visit gave me new insights to the Ar teams efforts, and believe me they are not in vain and should gather respect from all sailors worldwide . As well as their new almost open door policy at base camp .

No one is forgiving or forgetting the lose of bart this effort almost and you can feel it is in his honor and memory . There doing things right there doing it better and they're doing it safer .

 

And if you were not there first hand to see it keep your comments in your hat . Been enough AR bashing and its now time to support some world class guys .

r

 

 

I sure hope you are right and I be very happy to be wrong....it will be a triumph for the team, particularly the guys on the boat if they can get to a start line in a fully tricked boat, and sail her as these boats need and deserve to be sailed

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How is this for a scenario?

1. TNZ wins AC34

2. LE decides he has done his time in the AC world (must have splashed $700m+ over some years)

3. OR disband

4. TT hires RC

5. AR is reborn for AC35

 

 

I'm cool with that, but wouldn't be surprised if GD shuts RC out with the nationality card.

 

I did wonder if TT might target RC for the next cup.

Even if OR remains in the next cycle, TT probably has enough money to make RC an offer he can't refuse.

 

Difficult to exclude RC with nationality rules because:

 

1. The rules are likely to apply to designers and sailors rather than management (could be wrong), and

2. They are likely to specify some time resident in country (perhaps 2 years such as in '95) in which case RC can simply shift there like he did for Ernie.

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13_041006_LVC2013.jpg

 

Same photo from AR website.

 

O

 

I do not think it is the angle or my eyes that make the near hull flexed down quite a ways from its static position. That seems to be quite a bit of flex in there.

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hat is the current state of the rudder requirements? Do the parties have to have rudder elevators that meet the larger area requirements put in by Iain Murray or are the original class rules in effect? IIRC, Paul Cayard indicated that Artemis has foiling rudders that meet the original class rules (and eric e posted a nice confirming picture of that). Can Artemis use those rudders or must they come up with foils that do not exceed Bmax but that also meet Iain Murray's larger area requirements (what Paul Cayard referred to as the "third option")

 

Again, my apologies if this has already been answered.

The original AC72 Class Rules are now in force, so no minimum areas, 1-metre rudder stock maximum distance from stern restored, symmetric or assymetric but no sticking outside beam, etc. According to Cayard they have CR-compliant rudders, Murray Class Rules-compliant rudders, but not "ETNZ"-third-mode-unfriendly-fucking-Dalton-just-wants-to-eliminate-us rudders. Oh, and when unfriendly-just-wants-to-eliminate-us-fucking-Dalton offered special dispensation for them to race with the Murray-Class-Rules rudders, LR said "Non!!, you thinka we AR stupida!?!"

In short, AR ar a bit fucked - still.

At this point isn't IM still warranting to the USCG that the boats on the race course are also complying with the 37 point safety plan?

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13_041006_LVC2013.jpg

 

Same photo from AR website.

 

O

 

I do not think it is the angle or my eyes that make the near hull flexed down quite a ways from its static position. That seems to be quite a bit of flex in there.

 

It does seem a lot, but then again the question is more about whether it is too much.

We can also assume that this weight represents the maximum expected load plus a bit more as a safety margin.

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The video is extraordinary for its detail, really great stuff. That stress to the bow is amazing (and the platform doesn't even have a balancing 'top strut' on it during any of the load tests) but cool too are the massive forces they subject the boards, and board cases, to. Nice CAD displays too, reflecting in 3D exactly what the scene behind them is. Those board positions are great too, you can even see the hull-bottom slots if you watch carefully.

 

I think Beau O produced this one. Hats off to whoever all, it's terrific.

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13_041006_LVC2013.jpg

 

Same photo from AR website.

 

O

 

I do not think it is the angle or my eyes that make the near hull flexed down quite a ways from its static position. That seems to be quite a bit of flex in there.

agreed

 

and the load weights and test frame is loaded on bow - hooked up to servers

 

thats a torsion load / test on cross beams right ?

 

crane is holding up opposite side hull

 

and without under riggings and mast bearing post that was under cross beams

 

[ maybe its there I can barely see something there]

 

your the engineer -I defer to your terms /expertise

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13_041006_LVC2013.jpg

 

Same photo from AR website.

 

O

 

I do not think it is the angle or my eyes that make the near hull flexed down quite a ways from its static position. That seems to be quite a bit of flex in there.

agreed

 

and the load weights and test frame is loaded on bow - hooked up to servers

 

thats a torsion load / test on cross beams right ?

 

crane is holding up opposite side hull

 

and without under riggings and mast bearing post that was under cross beams

 

[ maybe its there I can barely see something there]

 

your the engineer -I defer to your terms /expertise

The sling on the opposit hull is slack

The port hull has a 10t weight at the rear cross beam. I'm guessing its loaded as the two observers at the stern are keeping a respectful distance.

Not visable in the photo is an a-frame jig at the mast step

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^ The under-rigging is all there, watch more closely

 

Agreed, it's there, it's just far less substantial than other teams so a little less noticeable.

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^ The under-rigging is all there, watch more closely

Agreed, it's there, it's just far less substantial than other teams so a little less noticeable.
The CAD rotations are especially good for showing it, as you likely see too.

 

Like some posters have noticed, the ties from the king post to the beams are still to mid-beam; but it may not be what contributed to the break and actually looks reasonable from a structural pov, the angle being more vertically decent than if they were attached all the way out at the hulls. Those hollows (holes, presumably to be filled? inspection holes?) are sorta interesting too.

 

It's a very transparent look at their testing; would be a great demonstration for everyone on AR but its cool we get to see it too.

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Given the hate in here I can only assume PC has done to you what RC did to EB. Now watch the kiwi hate machine firing on all twelve...

No hate at all. Do you think PC has done a good job running AR ??

With all due respect you didn't answer the question

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http://chevaliertaglang.blogspot.fr/2013/07/artemis-racing-ac72-second-boat.html

 

Chevailier/Taglang have the drawings up of the blue boat.

 

"Once again Artemis designer Juan Kouyoumdjian has designed a fairly special AC72. He has promoted lightness and simplicity, and the hull lines are very sophisticated in their pear shape."

 

pear shape....

 

He couldn't have picked a better word for the Artemis designs if he'd been actually trying!

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America's Cup: Artemis is alive and well - Bob Fisher exclusive

 

Alt_1048572_10151497392386087_1431732923 'Paul Cayard (left) and Loick Peyron - Artemis Racing - Media Tour of Alameda base, July 7, 2013' Sander van der Borch / Artemis Racing © Click Here to view large photo

In a vast hangar (formerly part of the Pan Am Seaplane base) on West Tower Avenue in Alameda, the Artemis Phoenix is arising from the ashes of the May 9th accident that took the life of Andrew Simpson.

 

It hasn’t been an easy process, as Paul Cayard, the CEO of the Swedish team pointed out. 'Quitting or retiring was not an option, but every one of the 130 people in this team has had different agenda to satisfy.'

 

Med_920311_10151509567941087_171350477_o

Artemis Racing undergoes stress testing. In the photo the team is simulating a single bow-down pitchpole. The port bow deflecs with the weights pulling on it compared to the starboard one. - Sander van der Borch_- Artemis Racing © Click Here to view large photo
From his office on the first floor, Paul can keep a wary eye on the progress on the team’s second boat. The blue hulls, bearing the three crowns (Tre Kronor) of Sweden, are now upright, after the exhaustive stress tests that took the best part of a week, the trampoline is in place and many of the control systems were fixed. 'We aim to put her in the water on Monday,' said Paul.

 

It will have been just over two months since the tragic accident before the Challenger of Record is sailing again, but it should be remembered that Oracle Team USA to more than three and a half months to be back on the water after its capsize. Both boats suffered catastrophic damage, but the heavier demands of taking part in the Louis Vuitton Cup has required round-the-clock working for Artemis.

 

Paul shrugged off the 'elevator' issue – 'We will conform to the class rules when we re-launch,' - as being a non-issue. As the holder of a pilot’s license, he is perhaps more aware than most of the technology involved and said that many hours of design and building time had been expended on the rudder stabilisers, as they might be more properly called.

 

Just when Artemis will be ready to race remains a matter solely for the team and while Cayard points to August 6th as a realistic date (the start of the Louis Vuitton semi-finals) there is every chance that the racing crew could push to meet the last two of their scheduled Round Robin races – against Emirates Team New Zealand on July 30th and Luna Rossa on August 1st.

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