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Tony-F18

Italian cruise ship tragedy

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BBC News - Italy cruise ship Costa Concordia aground near Giglio:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16558910

 

_57885802_013702767-1.jpg

_57886451_013702797-1.jpg

 

 

 

Just unbelievable that something like this could happen in a time where you can run a chartplotter on an iphone. :(

 

HORRIBLE.

 

Don't forget where this happened. Colombus was a Spainiard.

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BBC News - Italy cruise ship Costa Concordia aground near Giglio:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16558910

 

_57885802_013702767-1.jpg

_57886451_013702797-1.jpg

 

 

 

Just unbelievable that something like this could happen in a time where you can run a chartplotter on an iphone. :(

 

HORRIBLE.

 

Don't forget where this happened. Colombus was a Spainiard.

um Colombus was an Italian.

 

However this is horrible. there are still 69 people not accounted for.

 

from the images I looks like the she ran over a rock and at the bottom of a wave landed on top of it.

 

the articles state a 20 degree list but those photos look over 60 degrees to me. ah never mind I found an image from the night that showed a 20 degree list

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BBC News - Italy cruise ship Costa Concordia aground near Giglio:

http://www.bbc.co.uk...europe-16558910

 

_57885802_013702767-1.jpg

_57886451_013702797-1.jpg

 

 

 

Just unbelievable that something like this could happen in a time where you can run a chartplotter on an iphone. :(

 

Analysis

Richard Westcott BBC transport correspondent

 

....

All ships have to meet safety standards set out by the International Maritime Organisation. Crews are trained to deal with emergency and cruise companies stress this kind of accident is rare.

 

A reef? In the ocean? Chance in a million.

 

Sorry, but it had to be done.

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How do you say "would you like fries w/ your meal" in Italian?

 

cause that's about the only job "Capt" will be able to get now!

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I reckon there had to have been a major power loss on the bridge for this to happen.

 

Friday 13th, Italian Officers? Nahhh wouldn't have wanted to be there....

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Terrible, 69 people unaccounted for.

 

Interview with a crewman said it was during the dinner service 2 hours out from the mainland, boat definitely hit something very hard with near immediate list. He reported panic and fighting amongst passengers. The captain turned the ship towards the island to attempt to get it into shallow water. Reports of many passengers jumping into the water as launching the lifeboats was slow and difficult with listing.

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I was on a Navy ship that bumped the bottom pretty good (no one hurt).

 

Groundings of large ships are rare events that are usually attributed to some bizarre combination of failures. Someone not paying as much attention as they should. A burned out lightbulb. Something else shut down for maintenance. Mistaking one lighthouse for another. Individually, all minor things but catastrophic when they all occur at the same time.

 

No it should not happen but it does. The cause(s) of this will probably be made clear in time.

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From the photos I've seen, and looking at my Italian Waters Pilot, it looks like the ship ended up at the port of Giglio Porto, aka Giglio Marina. It's on the east side of Isola Giglio. Google maps is grainy on this port, but also looks like the same photos in the media.

 

A terrible, wasteful tragedy. I hope that the loss of life is not as great as is first reported - 70 people missing.

 

And totally preventable. I'll wager the bridge officers are found to have been negligent.

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Terrible, 69 people unaccounted for.

 

Interview with a crewman said it was during the dinner service 2 hours out from the mainland, boat definitely hit something very hard with near immediate list. He reported panic and fighting amongst passengers. The captain turned the ship towards the island to attempt to get it into shallow water. Reports of many passengers jumping into the water as launching the lifeboats was slow and difficult with listing.

 

Just as I suspected.

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Remember the Andrea Doria? The Italian crew fought the passengers for space on the lifeboats.

 

A ship with an Italian crew and Italian passengers would have been a monkey house.

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Terrible, 69 people unaccounted for.

 

Interview with a crewman said it was during the dinner service 2 hours out from the mainland, boat definitely hit something very hard with near immediate list. He reported panic and fighting amongst passengers. The captain turned the ship towards the island to attempt to get it into shallow water. Reports of many passengers jumping into the water as launching the lifeboats was slow and difficult with listing.

 

Absolutely unbelievable - what a horrible event.

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Remember the Andrea Doria? The Italian crew fought the passengers for space on the lifeboats.

 

A ship with an Italian crew and Italian passengers would have been a monkey house.

 

How about the Greek cruise ship Oceanus?

 

The captain was one of the first ashore while hundreds of passengers were still on the stricken vessel.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MTS_Oceanos

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I just viewed a video showing the gash in the bottom of the ship...and there is a HUGE rock embedded in the bottom. Was not a sand bar that ship hit, was a rock, and it broke it off!

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Avranas (Kaptain of the Oceanus) stated, "When I give the order abandon ship, it doesn't matter what time I leave. Abandon is for everybody. If some people want to stay, they can stay."

 

Forgot about the Oceanus. Thanks!

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While all the experts are speculating let's throw in a collision with a (pick you nationality) submarine conspiracy theory. Condolennces to those lost.

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While all the experts are speculating let's throw in a collision with a (pick you nationality) submarine conspiracy theory. Condolennces to those lost.

What, a submarine continent? Atlantis? There is a huge rock embedded in the bottom of that ship.

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And totally preventable. I'll wager the bridge officers are found to have been negligent.

 

 

yuh think...?

 

it was either the officer in charge, or the rock that was negligent..., and my money's on the officer.

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Hey, that'll buff out.

 

Had to be said.

 

Really hope she doesn't start leaking fuel oil or other nasties. Giglio is a lovely and quite pristine little island. Would hate to see it mucked up.

 

Any salvage operators here? How the heck to you get this one righted and away, then?

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While all the experts are speculating let's throw in a collision with a (pick you nationality) submarine conspiracy theory. Condolennces to those lost.

 

Doubt a submarine. But those Mediterranean rocks are stealthy, and are always moving around.

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"Earlier Saturday Francesco Schettino, captain of the Costa Concordia, had told Italian television that the vessel had hit a rocky spur while cruising in waters which, according to the charts, should have been safe.

 

"As we were navigating at cruise speed, we hit a rocky spur," he told Tgcom24 television station:

 

"According to the nautical chart, there should have been sufficient water underneath us," he added."

 

 

I also heard the crew failed to Tebow....

 

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"Earlier Saturday Francesco Schettino, captain of the Costa Concordia, had told Italian television that the vessel had hit a rocky spur while cruising in waters which, according to the charts, should have been safe.

 

"As we were navigating at cruise speed, we hit a rocky spur," he told Tgcom24 television station:

 

"According to the nautical chart, there should have been sufficient water underneath us," he added."

 

I dunno, there certainly seems to be another rock pointing out of the water really close to the ship:

 

_57886451_013702797-1.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

 

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"Earlier Saturday Francesco Schettino, captain of the Costa Concordia, had told Italian television that the vessel had hit a rocky spur while cruising in waters which, according to the charts, should have been safe.

 

"As we were navigating at cruise speed, we hit a rocky spur," he told Tgcom24 television station:

 

"According to the nautical chart, there should have been sufficient water underneath us," he added."

 

I dunno, there certainly seems to be another rock pointing out of the water really close to the ship:

 

_57886451_013702797-1.jpg

 

 

there's a report that he purposely altered course toward shallow water after the initial grounding.

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My take, that the captain was making for shore after the encounter with the rock. Was attempting to keep the ship from sinking in deep water, with a much bigger loss of life.

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This is a kinda wait before passing judgement thing. Most will not like this post but we are very lucky that it may turn out to be under 100 dead. That ship can carry I believe 3700 passengers plus crew. It appears to me that the ship has completely rolled and is not floating on its side. The side of the ship appears to be resting on the bottom. When this has happened even on naval ships the loss of crew is very large. If this stays around 100 dead then it barely ranks an entry. So if the story is true that they kept it afloat long enough to run it aground that action saved the vast majority of the people aboard. When ships have rolled in the past the passengers are by then above deck. Very ugly.

 

Too bad that it did not sink on an even keel. The captain needed some form of flat bottom not one of these med rock islands that slope down to the bottom.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Here is another modern sinking with large loss of life. MS Estonia

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My take, that the captain was making for shore after the encounter with the rock. Was attempting to keep the ship from sinking in deep water, with a much bigger loss of life.

Yep. An initial report was he hit 'something' not necesssarily a rock, and headed for shallow water to beach her.

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http://italychronicl...ordia-accident/

 

 

Update 20:20 January 14th, 2012:

 

The captain of the Costa Concordia cruise ship has been arrested and accused of abandoning the ship while passengers were still aboard. Passengers have talked of chaos aboard in the moments after the ship hit a submerged rocky outcrop. It has been reported that there were not enough lifebelts and lifeboats. It is suspected that passengers and crew may still be in the hull of the ship. Rescuers have not yet reached all areas of the liner which is resting on the sea bed just off the Italian island of Giglio. Scuba divers exploring the ship have stopped searching for survivors owing to lack of light.

 

Update 18:47 January 14th, 2012:

 

Apparently 60 people are still missing after the Costa Concordia disaster. The death toll remains at 3 for the moment. The number of those reported injured has risen from the initial figure of 14 to 67. It appears as if the Costa Concordia was sailing far too close to land although it is not clear why. Investigators are trying to establish whether the disaster was caused by human error or malfunctioning instrumentation. The ship's captain claims that the craft was following an approved route and that the rocks the boat struck were not shown on charts.The Costa Concordia has the marine equivalent of a 'black box' and this will be analyzed to discover the cause of the incident.

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UFO theorist's concluding that

 

 

the ship was taken out

 

 

 

 

 

by a RockHitShip ohmy.gif

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Coat and Hat Please blink.gif

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From the second video, it appears that the ship spent quite some time at only a moderate list (20 degrees or so) and with decks well out of the water, rather than going over at-all quickly.

 

So as to why anyone would be trapped below would seem a question.

 

Hopefully it will turn out that most or all of the unaccounted-for persons simply never were aboard, or were aboard but escaped safely and, well, just haven't been accounted for.

 

As for the captain being arrested, my understanding is that this has no real implication: it's just what they do there in cases at all like this.

 

I do have to say that it's a poor show of him to have left the ship so long as there was any rescuing to be done that he could direct or aid. What was his rush? Was starting to get hungry, and the food service staff had already vamoosed?

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From the second video, it appears that the ship spent quite some time at only a moderate list (20 degrees or so) and with decks well out of the water, rather than going over at-all quickly.

 

So as to why anyone would be trapped below would seem a question.

 

Hopefully it will turn out that most or all of the unaccounted-for persons simply never were aboard, or were aboard but escaped safely and, well, just haven't been accounted for.

 

As for the captain being arrested, my understanding is that this has no real implication: it's just what they do there in cases at all like this.

 

I do have to say that it's a poor show of him to have left the ship so long as there was any rescuing to be done that he could direct or aid. What was his rush? Was starting to get hungry, and the food service staff had already vamoosed?

Looking at the photos of it on the 20 deg list looks like the power was out, No lights inside seem to be going. Only the lights that you want for using the life rafts are going and they should be able to be supplied from a deck level emergency generator.

 

The boat went down in hours, I actually think they did a fairly good job of getting 4000+ of in the dark.

 

The news reports keep metioning the "Icy waters" Does anyone know what water temps are there? Cold yes but icy?

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Water temp is around 10c, which is quitle cold if all you're wearing is a tshirt.

Still 40 people missing though, reports said crew was in full panic mode with few of them speaking italian or english (probably filipino etc).

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I have spent alot of time on the water near there, Italian coast charts are very accurate. Un less the chart plotter and paper charts were not corrected up to date? My guess is they were WAY inside of the intended navigation track. The bridge watch clearly was not navigating... never should have happened.

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Reports said the damage section extended 50 meters, I want to see the ship plans to see how many bulkhead compartments that can flood.

 

Without a doubt, these ships are top heavy, and with such a high center of gravity it's almost a godsend that it didn't capsize faster.

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You would think the boat would list to the side with the biggest hole in it.

 

Given the boulder sticking out of the Port side, you have to wonder what the Starboard side must look like.

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Reports said the damage section extended 50 meters, I want to see the ship plans to see how many bulkhead compartments that can flood.

 

Without a doubt, these ships are top heavy, and with such a high center of gravity it's almost a godsend that it didn't capsize faster.

actually on ships and boats it is medicentric height.

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post-39772-017570000 1326588435_thumb.jpg

 

Interestingly the stabiliser fin further forward appears to be undamaged.... which appears to indicate they steered hard to starboard before sideswiping the rock with the stern.

 

Also looking at the map, the wreck is now on a heading south, while they were sailing northwards. The crew actually turned the ship around after the incident and headed for the island to get the passengers as close to help as possible - must have saved a number of lives.

 

So yes, major stupidity hitting the rock in the first place, but good points for getting the ship as close as possible to help afterwards

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Reports said the damage section extended 50 meters, I want to see the ship plans to see how many bulkhead compartments that can flood.

 

Without a doubt, these ships are top heavy, and with such a high center of gravity it's almost a godsend that it didn't capsize faster.

actually on ships and boats it is medicentric height.

 

The metacentric height is a measurement of the initial static stability of a floating body. Only applies at zero, or small angles of heel. At larger angles, CG comes into play.

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And totally preventable. I'll wager the bridge officers are found to have been negligent.

 

 

yuh think...?

 

it was either the officer in charge, or the rock that was negligent..., and my money's on the officer.

this could be the post of the year :lol:

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Love the interview with 'industry expert' on the BBC

"these ships are built for revenue generation not safety"

How is the ship at fault?

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No hint of an oil protection boom around the wreck. Isn't that standard practice? With holes below the waterline, and the ship lying on her side it's only a matter of time before something leaks out.

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post-39772-017570000 1326588435_thumb.jpg

 

Interestingly the stabiliser fin further forward appears to be undamaged.... which appears to indicate they steered hard to starboard before sideswiping the rock with the stern.

 

Also looking at the map, the wreck is now on a heading south, while they were sailing northwards. The crew actually turned the ship around after the incident and headed for the island to get the passengers as close to help as possible - must have saved a number of lives.

 

So yes, major stupidity hitting the rock in the first place, but good points for getting the ship as close as possible to help afterwards

 

I'm sure that's going to be the but of a joke around here soon, It's just too soon at the moment.

 

No hint of an oil protection boom around the wreck. Isn't that standard practice? With holes below the waterline, and the ship lying on her side it's only a matter of time before something leaks out.

After following the Rena incident here it seems that those oil booms really only work on the flat water of a harbor, Still I'm surprised that there isn't an oil slick coming out of that thing.

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post-39772-017570000 1326588435_thumb.jpg

 

Interestingly the stabiliser fin further forward appears to be undamaged.... which appears to indicate they steered hard to starboard before sideswiping the rock with the stern.

 

Also looking at the map, the wreck is now on a heading south, while they were sailing northwards. The crew actually turned the ship around after the incident and headed for the island to get the passengers as close to help as possible - must have saved a number of lives.

 

So yes, major stupidity hitting the rock in the first place, but good points for getting the ship as close as possible to help afterwards

 

I'm sure that's going to be the but of a joke around here soon, It's just too soon at the moment.

 

No hint of an oil protection boom around the wreck. Isn't that standard practice? With holes below the waterline, and the ship lying on her side it's only a matter of time before something leaks out.

After following the Rena incident here it seems that those oil booms really only work on the flat water of a harbor, Still I'm surprised that there isn't an oil slick coming out of that thing.

 

I'm pretty surprised there is no boom around the ship as well. With that much of a list I can't imagine she's not leaking fuel/lube oil

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journalist who saw the ship

 

said cruise ships often pass closely by at speed

 

said he was surprised to see it SO close

 

and then it got ripped open

 

 

how long have italian sailors been sailing the coast of italy?

 

4000, 3000 years?

 

captains says the charts showed it was safe to go so close

 

what kind of chart was he using

 

1 written for caesar's triremes BC?

 

or did that rock spur start growing....

 

 

 

 

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have another look at the rip in the bottom and the embedded rock

 

is the bow on the right ?

 

was the ship going backwards at the time of contact ?

 

could this indicate an azimuthing problem ? .............. ie some sort of electrical control or power clusterfuck ?

 

 

did the drives go out of control AFTER the initial grounding ? ..... before they lost driving power ?

 

 

 

seems like the skipper did the best thing he could by attempting to beach the ship after the first " touch "

 

 

a sideways jump is possible ( rocky horror ) if these drives blow their mind .............................................

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Don't all Italians go by feel ..... you can always tell which one they are a start line just listen for the grinding of f/glass ....

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have another look at the rip in the bottom and the embedded rock

 

is the bow on the right ?

 

was the ship going backwards at the time of contact ?

 

could this indicate an azimuthing problem ? .............. ie some sort of electrical control or power clusterfuck ?

 

 

did the drives go out of control AFTER the initial grounding ? ..... before they lost driving power ?

 

 

 

seems like the skipper did the best thing he could by attempting to beach the ship after the first " touch "

 

 

a sideways jump is possible ( rocky horror ) if these drives blow their mind .............................................

 

Bow's to the left.

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Making 15.4 knots at contact,with no sign of any avoidance before hand although the refresh rate may not allow for that kind of granulatiry. Then they came starboard and traveled at least a little distance to the island. They may have screwed up their read of the charts, but certainly seemed to do the right thing after the collision.

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"Interestingly the stabiliser fin further forward appears to be undamaged.... which appears to indicate they steered hard to starboard before sideswiping the rock with the stern." (alpha)

 

Looks to me as though there was an avoidance maneuver in progress when contact was made. All contact with the rock was port side aft of the fore and aft mid point of the ship. Indicating there was a hard turn to starboard, causing the aft, port side to contact (collect) the rock.

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Hmmm, pretty close in, looks like a case of "let's give the passengers a nice close look at the harbour, just like we did last year." A bit too close, maybe had the GPS zoomed out a little too much, and oops.

 

Not funny though.

 

dash

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If the Aegis-class guided missle frigate USS Port Royal could run agound 100 yards from the mouth of Pearl Harbor, then ANY navigational error IS entirely possible when enough disregard for margin of error is present.

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16 minutes of no AIS position, I reckon this is what happened

Very good assessment, I'm supprised that they didn't hail that funny object and request that it move out her way .....

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16 minutes of no AIS position, I reckon this is what happened

Let's wait until we get some facts aye.

 

You may be right on the money but people have died, let's, just for once break SA tradition and wait for the facts.

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Water temp is around 10c, which is quitle cold if all you're wearing is a tshirt.

 

Where do you get that?15C according to http://www.eurometeo.com/english/meteomar/id_tce

 

Predicted survival time - 6 hours at 15C, 2 hours at 10C http://www.answers.com/topic/survival-at-sea Quite a difference.

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Water temp is around 10c, which is quitle cold if all you're wearing is a tshirt.

 

Where do you get that?15C according to http://www.eurometeo.com/english/meteomar/id_tce

You are right, 15c it is, apparently there is a place in France with the same name.

 

Two survivors rescued from inside the ship:

http://edition.cnn.com/2012/01/14/world/europe/italy-cruise-deaths/index.html

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These things are top-heavy. There was a cruise ship a few years ago that had an autopilot malfunction in the straights of Juan de Fuca that turned the ship so hard that it listed to within a few degrees of going over. An N A told me that the CG is something like a third the way up the hull from the WL on these things. Rocks do move because of earthquakes. We slid up on a rock in BC a few years ago. CTow puled us off, tied us to his boat, and then rammed us right back on the rock. "that's not supposed to be there". he said. And according to the charts it wasn't. But there it was. Is this island an active earthquake zone?

 

Loss of life sucks. Poseidon adventure. God help anyone disabled on that ship.

 

Kind of wonder if the charts had been updated with all the budget problems in Italy. Surveys cost euros.

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There are a lot of earthquakes (generally but not always small) in Italy, but from some data from the US Geological Survey, this seems not to be near any centers of activity.

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I looked but could not find the basis for those times. The last time I checked was over twenty years ago and they were based on studies involving males of a rather young age. My guess (MD's who post here would have a much better opinion) is that age, medication (blood thinners) and fat percentage as well as perhaps other factors will wildly change those times.

 

I would suspect that some deaths deal with falling once the ship was listed at an extreme angle. I believe this is how one of the salvage crew died on that car carrier that was floating on its side off of Alaska.

 

I have not been aboard any of these ships that have been built in the last twenty years. But with 4000 people on board and the amount of actual trained sailors as a small percentage of the crew these ships seem to be a ripe terrorist targets or accidents waiting to happen.

 

I can not even imagine trying to evacuate a cruise ship. So many people who have very little ability to move themselves in anything other than normal circumstances. Try moving an overweight elderly person up an incline. Just getting the person standing up is tough enough. If they lost less than 100 ( aprox. 4 percent) we are very lucky.

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A chart -- with no source provided -- appears again and again in various webpages with the same claimed figures. On the chance it might (might) originate from a valid source, its figures are below.

 

As you say the numbers vary widely.

 

Temperature F / Temperature C / Time to exhaustion or unconsciousness / Expected survival time

50–60° 10–15.6° ... 1–2 hours ... 1–6 hours

60–70° 15.6–21.1° ... 2–7 hours ... 2–40 hours

 

So reading with huge margin for variation, one might give for expected survival time 2-6 hours for 60 F (15.6 C) and very slightly shorter for 59 F.

 

However, if reaching unconsciousness in the water with no PFD, death might occur at that point rather than what might be true if drowning were prevented. So in that case, perhaps even as little as one hour, or possibly even less for the frail.

 

The site that Dogwatch gives reports 50% death rate "in the order of 6 hours" at 15 C. ("On the order of" has the scientific meaning of margin of error being several or many times.)

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Remember the Andrea Doria? The Italian crew fought the passengers for space on the lifeboats.

 

A ship with an Italian crew and Italian passengers would have been a monkey house.

 

How about the Greek cruise ship Oceanus?

 

The captain was one of the first ashore while hundreds of passengers were still on the stricken vessel.

 

http://en.wikipedia....iki/MTS_Oceanos

 

There was a joke going around after this incident; What is the difference between a boat and a goat? A greek will go down on a goat!

Hat , coat etc etc

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From the second video, it appears that the ship spent quite some time at only a moderate list (20 degrees or so) and with decks well out of the water, rather than going over at-all quickly.

 

So as to why anyone would be trapped below would seem a question.

 

Hopefully it will turn out that most or all of the unaccounted-for persons simply never were aboard, or were aboard but escaped safely and, well, just haven't been accounted for.

 

As for the captain being arrested, my understanding is that this has no real implication: it's just what they do there in cases at all like this.

 

I do have to say that it's a poor show of him to have left the ship so long as there was any rescuing to be done that he could direct or aid. What was his rush? Was starting to get hungry, and the food service staff had already vamoosed?

Looking at the photos of it on the 20 deg list looks like the power was out, No lights inside seem to be going. Only the lights that you want for using the life rafts are going and they should be able to be supplied from a deck level emergency generator.

 

The boat went down in hours, I actually think they did a fairly good job of getting 4000+ of in the dark.

 

The news reports keep metioning the "Icy waters" Does anyone know what water temps are there? Cold yes but icy?

 

passenger ships are designed so that they can be kept reasonably upright even with a majot hole in one side, by progressive flooding of the other side. this is critcal as passenger vessels need all the boats on BOTH sides in order to take of the passengers and crew. cargo vessels on the other hand have sufficient life boat capacity of EACH side for the full crew (obviously a lot easier for 25 instead of say 4000)

 

the first question i'd be asking is why the ship has gone right over in the way she has ? maybe the crew didn't hang around to manage the flooding properly ?

 

cheers,

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If they lost less than 100 ( aprox. 4 percent) we are very lucky.

 

I agree with this.

 

Over 4000 people successfully deployed to lifeboats and safely moved to shore - that's a huge achievement. An accurate count of survivors and suspected count of the missing immediately after the disaster - bravo. That is no small task.

 

In any emergency there are going to be some people who go to the wrong places and end up in the drink or down below. If it's only a few people or even a few dozen, that has to be expected, I would think.

 

There will also be survivors who complain about chaos. Yeah, your fucking ship got holed and sank! Did you expect it would be like a ride at Disneyland with an organized que, step on, sit down and step off with a happy voice over the intercom telling you what to do at every step of the way?

 

There's a lot of information still to come but from what I see so far, well done to the crew who got so many people successfully onto dry land.

 

Looks like every lifeboat on the side above water was successfully deployed.

 

As to why this happened, I look at it this way: thousands of these big shitters plying the waters of all corners of the planet. What could possibly go wrong, right? Some of these cattle barges are going down to Davy Jones's Locker, no matter what.

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Hacks on the Tv news are 'astounded' that this should happen in the 21st century.

 

The sea is under-estimated by 90% of the population

 

Passengers ask for their money back when it is rough and it spoils their holiday!

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