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GOLfa

Bavaria

109 posts in this topic

What do you think about that? They plan to get 25 boats on the water in 2012...

LOA: 7m

Beam: 2.45m

Displ: 1000 kg

Design: Farr

Crew-Weight-Limit: 285 kg

 

Price: 27.250 EUR (with sails and everything)

 

I think it is ugly and too fat. But on the other hand...

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1000kg?? bloody hell that heavy. Even the old Hunter 707 shitters don't weigh that much. It must be so expensive to build because they put so much material into it! Once again Barvaria have no clue what they are doing.

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wow, another heavy, expense Euro sport-boat with no dealer support outside some hamlet in Bavaria. Where can we line to make a fleet purchase?

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Yawn. But I'll bet they sell a few. Sort of like the J 70. Brand ID and predictable dealer service. Performance? not so much.

 

i550 plan set #439 went out the door recently. We will take over the world.

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wow, another heavy, expense Euro sport-boat with no dealer support outside some hamlet in Bavaria. Where can we line to make a fleet purchase?

 

Fleet purchase???? Contact Timber via PM.

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way too heavy for a 7m trailerable. but that's the result of back to the 70's non cored construction.

it's almost twice the weight of an SB3 but has only marginally more sail area with same size asym.

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no sportsboat @ 1000

 

can we move this to the same forum as Mac26s and Colgate26/ 7.9s2 etc

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looks ok for a change with bavaria, but 1000 kgs? Damn that polyester must be so thick it exotherms in the mould.

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OK it's 1000kg on paper. But it will go a fuck of a lot faster when that Bavaria keel falls off.

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i bet you these will replace the bavaria 42s in the WMRT in germany

 

hopefully! IMO it cannot get any worse than the 40S for match racing.

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Where did the single skin polyester info come from? So the competitive lifespan will be, what, 1 race?

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Where did the single skin polyester info come from? So the competitive lifespan will be, what, 1 race?

 

there is an article in german which has all those facts. sorry you will have to believe me ;)

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no sportsboat @ 1000

 

can we move this to the same forum as Mac26s and Colgate26/ 7.9s2 etc

 

1+

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BAVARIA and Sportboat is a thing that will not work. Instead of get a feed inside the sub 28 feet cruiser range with a smart weekender like the Elan 210 or a little Daysailer like the VA 18 by Hanse they decided to go for a sporty as appitizer and entry modell for new clients. With the BAVARIA knowhow of boatbuilding at industrial level and Farr Design it should be no problem to create and build a much better sportboat than the B/one. Imagine a 7 m sporty build from epoxy, corecell, lift keel, carbon mast, chines, 3-4 crew with 750 kg wight ready to sail for 25.000 EUR ex VAT. That would be nice for Clubs and sailors and could be a real change for BAVARIA too to open their brand. But even than it would be a long distance run for BAVARIA as you can see as one of the first post here was the "Bavaria keel lost desaster".

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I cannot believe that Farr is givin his name to such a hopeless product. For that amount you buy a real second hand sportboat like the Melges.It must be a marketing idiot saying we must make something for the younger public because they are the future clients of the big boats. HOPELESS!!!!!

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Ive really got my hopes up on this one, even if SA/DSPL 4% higher on the j70 the bavaria should be a keeper =)) (hoping) ... I think bavarias keel is deeper as well!

And you might get two bavaria for the price of one j70.

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(British) Hunter sold around 120 707s at a size, displacement, SA, rig spec and price all similar to this. Bavaria has a marketing machine and sells shed-loads of boats. Scoffers can and will scoff but I wonder how many of them have ever signed a cheque for a boat.

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Ive really got my hopes up on this one, even if SA/DSPL 4% higher on the j70 the bavaria should be a keeper =)) (hoping) ... I think bavarias keel is deeper as well!

And you might get two bavaria for the price of one j70.

 

 

Lets see, Euro to dollar is 1.305 to 1 so 27250 Euros is 35566 dollars. Base J/70 is 39,850 (in the US). Not sure how that works out to 2 Bavarias for the price of one J/70?

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Ive really got my hopes up on this one, even if SA/DSPL 4% higher on the j70 the bavaria should be a keeper =)) (hoping) ... I think bavarias keel is deeper as well!

And you might get two bavaria for the price of one j70.

 

 

Lets see, Euro to dollar is 1.305 to 1 so 27250 Euros is 35566 dollars. Base J/70 is 39,850 (in the US). Not sure how that works out to 2 Bavarias for the price of one J/70?

 

You cant count it straight like that...

 

J/80 costs 40k$ with sails in Us, BUT it also costs 40k€ with sails in europe.

So i think if you want to buy a j/70 in Europe you will have to put up 1:1 $:€

 

 

 

So lets seee...........

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Ive really got my hopes up on this one, even if SA/DSPL 4% higher on the j70 the bavaria should be a keeper =)) (hoping) ... I think bavarias keel is deeper as well!

And you might get two bavaria for the price of one j70.

 

 

Lets see, Euro to dollar is 1.305 to 1 so 27250 Euros is 35566 dollars. Base J/70 is 39,850 (in the US). Not sure how that works out to 2 Bavarias for the price of one J/70?

 

You cant count it straight like that...

 

J/80 costs 40k$ with sails in Us, BUT it also costs 40k€ with sails in europe.

So i think if you want to buy a j/70 in Europe you will have to put up 1:1 $:€

 

 

 

So lets seee...........

 

 

Good point about not being able to directly compare pricing in the US to pricing in Europe.

 

OBTW, think you J/80 pricing is off. Current special is: "For J/80s ordered in the next 60 days (prior to February 1st), the special program is: 2011 Model US Watercraft J/80 for $53,900 USD with a Waterline Systems faired keel and Triad tandem axle galvanized trailer." That makes it something like $45k fob for the base J/80 and doesn't include the sails either....

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1328112653[/url]' post='3569721']
1328052051[/url]' post='3568884']
1328041446[/url]' post='3568678']
1328030614[/url]' post='3568466']

Ive really got my hopes up on this one, even if SA/DSPL 4% higher on the j70 the bavaria should be a keeper =)) (hoping) ... I think bavarias keel is deeper as well!

And you might get two bavaria for the price of one j70.

 

 

Lets see, Euro to dollar is 1.305 to 1 so 27250 Euros is 35566 dollars. Base J/70 is 39,850 (in the US). Not sure how that works out to 2 Bavarias for the price of one J/70?

 

You cant count it straight like that...

 

J/80 costs 40k$ with sails in Us, BUT it also costs 40k€ with sails in europe.

So i think if you want to buy a j/70 in Europe you will have to put up 1:1 $:€

 

 

 

So lets seee...........

 

 

Good point about not being able to directly compare pricing in the US to pricing in Europe.

 

OBTW, think you J/80 pricing is off. Current special is: "For J/80s ordered in the next 60 days (prior to February 1st), the special program is: 2011 Model US Watercraft J/80 for $53,900 USD with a Waterline Systems faired keel and Triad tandem axle galvanized trailer." That makes it something like $45k fob for the base J/80 and doesn't include the sails either....

 

Sorry, my fault. I think the j80 was 40k€ including sails was 2008 so it might differ from now.

Anyone got info about what the j70 will be priced at in europe?

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(British) Hunter sold around 120 707s at a size, displacement, SA, rig spec and price all similar to this. Bavaria has a marketing machine and sells shed-loads of boats. Scoffers can and will scoff but I wonder how many of them have ever signed a cheque for a boat.

 

The 707's I saw were all well put together (like the reast of Hunter's - not the american Hunter I must add), and I think there's Kevlar in the laminate too. Bavarias are not exactly in the same league for construction. I'm a bit at a loss to this one too as you could get a decent used Melges 24 for the same money, its not far off Shaw 6.5 money, and there are others that would run rings around this for a similar price (Viper, used Bene 25 etc). And I'm not sure that a polyester skin skin boat is going to stay competitive for long - it's chopped strand mat and other stuff. I say this as I'm currently helping some friends out with a single skin/coremat FD and compared with my laminated wood one its got all the rigidity of cooked lasagne. Maybe the marketing machine will work, but when they go soft in 2 years will they be worth anything? Seems a false economy to me.

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(British) Hunter sold around 120 707s at a size, displacement, SA, rig spec and price all similar to this. Bavaria has a marketing machine and sells shed-loads of boats. Scoffers can and will scoff but I wonder how many of them have ever signed a cheque for a boat.

 

The 707's I saw were all well put together (like the reast of Hunter's - not the american Hunter I must add), and I think there's Kevlar in the laminate too. Bavarias are not exactly in the same league for construction. I'm a bit at a loss to this one too as you could get a decent used Melges 24 for the same money, its not far off Shaw 6.5 money, and there are others that would run rings around this for a similar price (Viper, used Bene 25 etc). And I'm not sure that a polyester skin skin boat is going to stay competitive for long - it's chopped strand mat and other stuff. I say this as I'm currently helping some friends out with a single skin/coremat FD and compared with my laminated wood one its got all the rigidity of cooked lasagne. Maybe the marketing machine will work, but when they go soft in 2 years will they be worth anything? Seems a false economy to me.

 

Yes, but the bavaria has 4 berths, wc and other stuff.

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Yes, but the bavaria has 4 berths, wc and other stuff.

 

Fast, 4 Berths, room for other stuff? Compare it to this beast.

Pros: LOA: 7.5m, Weight 850 kg (400 in keel), draft 2m, 90 sqm Downwind

Cons: Costs twice as much as the b/one.

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1329666247[/url]' post='3591628']
1329648806[/url]' post='3591475']

Yes, but the bavaria has 4 berths, wc and other stuff.

 

Fast, 4 Berths, room for other stuff? Compare it to this beast.

Pros: LOA: 7.5m, Weight 850 kg (400 in keel), draft 2m, 90 sqm Downwind

Cons: Costs twice as much as the b/one.

 

Yes, ive seen it. 50k€ the first five boats, after that it will be more expensive, if you want the carbon rig you will have to add some.I think you got the downwind sail area wrong, its 103sqm compared to b/ones 80sqm.Nice boat but the b/one will have a bigger fleet and 25k€ extra is too much for me right now...

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Yes, but the bavaria has 4 berths, wc and other stuff.

 

Fast, 4 Berths, room for other stuff? Compare it to this beast.

Pros: LOA: 7.5m, Weight 850 kg (400 in keel), draft 2m, 90 sqm Downwind

Cons: Costs twice as much as the b/one.

 

Yes, ive seen it. 50k€ the first five boats, after that it will be more expensive, if you want the carbon rig you will have to add some.I think you got the downwind sail area wrong, its 103sqm compared to b/ones 80sqm.Nice boat but the b/one will have a bigger fleet and 25k€ extra is too much for me right now...

 

I think the numbers are right: 28 sqm main plus 60 sqm spinnaker.

B/one: 21+46=67 sqm.

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1329675526[/url]' post='3591731']
1329674946[/url]' post='3591722']
1329666247[/url]' post='3591628']
1329648806[/url]' post='3591475']

Yes, but the bavaria has 4 berths, wc and other stuff.

 

Fast, 4 Berths, room for other stuff? Compare it to this beast.

Pros: LOA: 7.5m, Weight 850 kg (400 in keel), draft 2m, 90 sqm Downwind

Cons: Costs twice as much as the b/one.

 

Yes, ive seen it. 50k€ the first five boats, after that it will be more expensive, if you want the carbon rig you will have to add some.I think you got the downwind sail area wrong, its 103sqm compared to b/ones 80sqm.Nice boat but the b/one will have a bigger fleet and 25k€ extra is too much for me right now...

 

I think the numbers are right: 28 sqm main plus 60 sqm spinnaker.

B/one: 21+46=67 sqm.

 

A sorry, im used to sailing skiffs - we use the jib on the downwind hehe

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how heavy is this thing?

 

is it ramp launchable ?

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Think it is 1070kg all up excl crew. Yes its on the heavy side, but it will handle off shore sailing a bit better than j70.

Compared, the Elan 210 is 1260kg all up.

 

 

Farr's designer comments says that the b/one will be ramp launchable.

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Not sure this is a sports boat, possibly a coastal racer? This thin has less waterline, sail area and twice the weight of an average sports boat in todays terms. Maybe Im wrong?:rolleyes: Interesting concept OD sporties, shaw 650 $46,000.00 AUD, Sports 8 ?? $50,000?? AUD, Bavaria $33,600.00 AUD trailers for Shaw and Sports 8 about 3 grand Bavaria $5K plus trailer brakes! Shaw and sports 8 in the pub by 3pm Bavaria has to have accommodation for the extra hours it will take to get around a course. I reckon a J24 would give them a run for their money!!:lol:

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You are right on, the Bavaria is much cheaper and you can sleep in it. Just imagine all the Vegemite you can buy for 10kAUD.

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These are not a sports boat and to be very blunt they are actually in no mans land, at best they will possibly be a coastal racer but with their weight they will not plane without planing they are subject to displacement theory, 7.5 meter yacht wont even keep up with the slowest coastal racers in Australia so looks liemk it will be a boat with no wheer to go, hope they sell heaps so atleast they have a class. I assumme they are a polyester boat in glass. You need to be realistic when comparing them to any sports boat which are generally all carbon and epoxy or Vinyal ester which are much better products and not subject to osmosis! I reckon a sports 8 could be almost built to match their price in poly. Also this thing is 7.5 meters with what looks like a pretty low freeboard, how good is the accommodation? If you look at the web site the accommodation is also an extra 4K euro for the pipe bunks so is the cruising one even heavier for the assumed increased freeboard?

 

 

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You think you know more than Farr?

Im from Sweden so I dont fully understand the language in your theory about the planing. I have been planing Elan 210 in 15 knots, that thing is 1260kg and 6,35meters with a 50sqm kite.

 

But I fully agree with you that the berth kit is way too expensive, also the extra money for pentex and kite sails.

 

I should explain that Im most likely not a buyer of this boat, Im just here to even out the "we all hate Bavaria comments".

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These are not a sports boat and to be very blunt they are actually in no mans land, at best they will possibly be a coastal racer but with their weight they will not plane without planing they are subject to displacement theory, 7.5 meter yacht wont even keep up with the slowest coastal racers in Australia so looks liemk it will be a boat with no wheer to go, hope they sell heaps so atleast they have a class. I assumme they are a polyester boat in glass. You need to be realistic when comparing them to any sports boat which are generally all carbon and epoxy or Vinyal ester which are much better products and not subject to osmosis! I reckon a sports 8 could be almost built to match their price in poly. Also this thing is 7.5 meters with what looks like a pretty low freeboard, how good is the accommodation? If you look at the web site the accommodation is also an extra 4K euro for the pipe bunks so is the cruising one even heavier for the assumed increased freeboard?

 

Did you Daddy just buy you a sports 8? You pricing on a sports 8 is way off the mark. Ring up and order a new carbon rig for it will set you back 20k. You could not get a builder to build you one the same as Pierres and put it on the start line for under 120k. We priced a similar one up a couple of years ago. shit you wouldn't get a new shaw 650 to the start line for less than 60k. 52k including gst plus trailer, outboard small jib, small kite. The Bavaria is half that, so you can't expect it to be the same.

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Hi Frank. While I appreciate your comments you are way off the mark. A carbon rig prodder and boom is $13K from CST retail! Nonetheless I would assume that you would order a sports 8 then at around 50K, given you were looking to buy one a few years ago??? This may be an interesting discussion and a forum in its own right. What pricing structures would be fair market price to generate sports boast sales. My Shaw price is from Shaw themselves so again you are wrong on this account. Sounds to me like you would be a great customer for anyone looking to sell to as your pay way too much!!! No offence, things have changed in the past few years mate, prices are tumbling and as Asia boats are coming online builders have no choice but to compete or die.

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ECO, Not at all mate, no doubt Farr has been given a brief and the engineers

have created a laminate schedule that is way too heavy. maybe if it were 5-600

Kgs might be worth looking at. Dont think that Farr hasnt had his fair share of

design errors, not that I am saying this is a bad design I am saying it is not a

sports boat in todays terms. We are currently in consultation with an equally

talented naval architect for a coastal racer. This boat will be a ULBD at 30

feet designed to be trailered to the start and then back home yet race in

coastal races such as the Brisbane to Gladstone. This thing has all but twice the sail

area, is 31 feet long and displaces 1430 kgs, it sleeps 4 also :P . At the end of the day a 7 meter yacht will go to windward at a maximum speed, if it is heavier it takes more power to get to hull speed than a lighter yacht which then also equates to down wind sailing you will need more power to allow the boat to cl;imb over its bow wave and plane beyond hull speed. Please dont get me wrong, this thing may be a great boat, just not a sports boat.

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Shouldn't this forum be renamed to 'Extreme sportboats', because everything that doesn't plane at 10kts is being bashed? Like it or not but 99% of the people will consider this boat to be a sports boat, and according to ORC defenitions it is one.

 

In North Europe a boat that's not seaworthy just doesn't sell. You can be sure Bavaria and Farr did their homework, just as we can expect from J with the J70.

 

 

 

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Its not a sports boat its a trailer sailor or coastal racer! Just because it looks like a sports boat doesnt mean it is one! In Europe you build kit cars that look like a ferrari or lamborghini, exact replicas, sorry they are not sports boats either. I think you need to understand that you would NOT be granted entry into any REAL sports boat fleet anywheer in the world. Maybe one of you guys can bring one of thezse things to Australia and race in our Sports boat fleet or NZ or US then you will understand what a SB is. Under ORCI an etchells, j24 are also considered a Sports boat! Ironically a J24 was considered a Sports boat when it was designed and in its day probably was. Farr would probably admit that this thing isnt a sports boat although can be called one by its design parameters, again we are using the term Sports boat loosly to do this. Bit like all the J70 owners and the planing to windward in 12 knots, use planing term loosly and you might be right!

 

I am not bagging this boat at all, it is probably a great boat and is very well priced. Build it composite ant it will weight 1/2 as much and yes it will be a sports boat, maybe a little more spinaker needed. There is a Sports 8 in Europe, this is the slow version of the Sports 8XX. This thing will do 7.5 knots in 8 knots true and 14.7 knots in 15 downwind, the Sports 8xx is faster around the course as it is a full carbon lighter non canting keel version, race it and tell me the bavaria is a sports boat!!

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I BET FARR DESIGNED IT AS A COMPOSITE BOAT!!! I WILL GIVE HIM A CALL AND FIND OUT.

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Its not a sports boat its a trailer sailor or coastal racer! Just because it looks like a sports boat doesnt mean it is one!
It's not a sports boat according to your terms. But the type of boats you think of as being sports boats just aren't popular in North Europe, so we are using different standards. (For example in Holland there are > 100.000 sail yachts, 19 of them are Melges 24...).

 

I think you need to understand that you would NOT be granted entry into any REAL sports boat fleet anywheer in the world.
The B1 has comparable S/D and D/L to a Beneteau/Platu 25, so over here you can be sure you're gone end up in a sports boats class.

 

Maybe one of you guys can bring one of thezse things to Australia and race in our Sports boat fleet or NZ or US then you will understand what a SB is.
I'm not saying the B1, or other boats like a J80 or SB3 that regularly are being laughed at, have comparable performance as a Shaw 650 for example. Maybe you should bring one of your sports boats to attend a season of racing on the North Sea. Than you'll understand why the J80 or SB3 or popular sports boats over here (SB3 > 600 in Europe).

 

Farr would probably admit that this thing isnt a sports boat although can be called one by its design parameters
According to their design whitepaper they do: http://bavariaone.fi...s-08feb2012.pdf. (It also confirms the hull was designed to be build in fiberglass).

 

I am not bagging this boat at all, it is probably a great boat and is very well priced.
I wasn't reacting on you personally. I just thinks it's a shame this forum has no place for people racing high performance boats. There are a lot of boat types between a Shaw 650 and an Hallberg-Rassy...

 

(And in Europe we build and drive the real Ferrari's and Lamborghini's, the replicas are for export to the US ;) .

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Think it is 1070kg all up excl crew. Yes its on the heavy side, but it will handle off shore sailing a bit better than j70.

Compared, the Elan 210 is 1260kg all up.

 

 

Farr's designer comments says that the b/one will be ramp launchable.

 

 

In Dutch ramp means disaster, that is exactly what this is

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The boat is extremely low tech acoording designers comments out of the webside: The hull shell is hand laminated using E-glass chopped strand mat and multi-axial fabrics over Coremat with additional uni-directional reinforcements used in high stress areas.

Coremat: that is the lowest tech core material one can find, it soacks full with resin like a sponge (actually it is a sort of sponge)

But neverteless it will sell good I think as a lot of nit wits are only looking at prices but on the other hand there are a lot of boats for sale second hand for that price (30K€)which are much better.

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Benetau Platu

Hull Length7.51 mBeam Length2.56 mDraught Length1.58 mMainsail Area21.2 m2Headsail Area12.6 m2Spinnaker Area44.5 m2Boat Weight1240 kgBallast Weight520 kg

 

B1 (Sports 8 XX)

Length 8.0

Beam 3.5

Draft 2.4

Displacenment 525 KGS

Main area 30 Sqm

Jib 19 SQm

Spinnaker Area 95 SQm

 

 

Similar performance vessels? Doubt it.

Maybe you can send me info on race results where Benetau has raced B1? And as far as SB3, it is literally half as fast and capable as B1.

>100K sb no doubt, you have >100K X the population! on per capita basis Europe has less Sports boats than Aus and NZ:lol: CLEARLY EUROPE HAS DIFFERENT STANDARDS!

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Shouldn't this forum be renamed to 'Extreme sportboats', because everything that doesn't plane at 10kts is being bashed? Like it or not but 99% of the people will consider this boat to be a sports boat, and according to ORC defenitions it is one.

 

 

More time and energy is spent debating whether something is or isn't a sportboat than anything else. It seems to give people a feeling of purpose. For those who are not concerned with a title or designation it sometimes provides insight into performance characteristics, but those times are rare.

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B1 (Sports 8 XX)

Length 8.0

Beam 3.5

Draft 2.4

Displacenment 525 KGS

Main area 30 Sqm

Jib 19 SQm

Spinnaker Area 95 SQm

With B1 I meant the Bavaria B/one. I don't see the link to a Sports 8XX.

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B1 (Sports 8 XX)

Length 8.0

Beam 3.5

Draft 2.4

Displacenment 525 KGS

Main area 30 Sqm

Jib 19 SQm

Spinnaker Area 95 SQm

With B1 I meant the Bavaria B/one. I don't see the link to a Sports 8XX.

 

 

www.sports8.com.au check it out. And please dont get me wrong, I understand how the Bavaria can be called a sports boat, BUT this is what it would be up against in the sports boat fleets in t eSouthern hemisphere. The B1 (Bethwaite 1 is the sports 8 that was sent to England, it was also known as the 79er).

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CLEARLY EUROPE HAS DIFFERENT STANDARDS!

 

Yeah, Europeans are stuck with boats like this. Bummer. From http://www.sebschmidt.ch/portfolio/01194/

 

01194_06_schiller_390.jpg

 

 

01194_20_390.jpg

 

 

Different tradition mate. There are mad lake sailors like this Psaros 40. As for sportsboats, that's an OD scene in most European countries.

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CLEARLY EUROPE HAS DIFFERENT STANDARDS!

 

Yeah, Europeans are stuck with boats like this. Bummer. From http://www.sebschmid...ortfolio/01194/

 

01194_06_schiller_390.jpg

 

 

01194_20_390.jpg

 

 

Different tradition mate. There are mad lake sailors like this Psaros 40. As for sportsboats, that's an OD scene in most European countries.

 

There are some nice boats there! The 26 looks nice, probably a little on the heavy side but looks like it would perform well. The original production sports 8 had a canting keel and were around this weight, unfortunatly they were left behind in teh Aussie SB fleets. Then the Sports 8 xx was produced in full carbon without canter, many consider this the fastest sports boat currently going around that is until someone trys to defend the Bavaria again as a legit sports boat!. If I were based in europe and were attending a SB world title (hypothetical) from what has been shown to me so far I would look at the 26 in the link you provided, however I would also struggle against most southern hemisphere sports boats. I would love to see what is considered the fastest sports boat in the Northern hemisphere/europe (non foiler :))

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The 26 looks nice, probably a little on the heavy side but looks like it would perform well.

 

LOA: 8m

Draft: 2.5m

Displacement: 840 kg (350 kg in bulb, 90 kg finkeel)

Crew Weight: 225 kg

36sqm Main, 30sqm Genoa, 112sqm Kite

 

You call that a little heavy? Doesn't need that much railmeat like the 8.

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The 26 looks nice, probably a little on the heavy side but looks like it would perform well.

 

LOA: 8m

Draft: 2.5m

Displacement: 840 kg (350 kg in bulb, 90 kg finkeel)

Crew Weight: 225 kg

36sqm Main, 30sqm Genoa, 112sqm Kite

 

You call that a little heavy? Doesn't need that much railmeat like the 8.

Rail meat is fast, everyone who has a good grasp on racing sail boats understands this. The fastest boats in the world all rely on crew weight at BMAX. This applies to ALL raceboats including Ocean. This is why boats like TP52 ect all have as large area of BMAX as possible. With a crew weight of only 250 Kgs thats about 3.5 crew, wont run a boat like that in race mode with 3.5 crew so a more realistic crew weight would be 360 KGs. But what do I know :) . Also the S/D of this boat is quite large so would be an interesting balance to sail, The genoa is HUGE!

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Rail meat is fast, everyone who has a good grasp on racing sail boats understands this. The fastest boats in the world all rely on crew weight at BMAX. This applies to ALL raceboats including Ocean. This is why boats like TP52 ect all have as large area of BMAX as possible. With a crew weight of only 250 Kgs thats about 3.5 crew, wont run a boat like that in race mode with 3.5 crew so a more realistic crew weight would be 360 KGs. But what do I know :) . Also the S/D of this boat is quite large so would be an interesting balance to sail, The genoa is HUGE!

Railmeat is fast - obviously. But on the other side: Railmeat sucks. Specially on a boat which has only jobs for 3. The rest is expensive, hard to find, hard to keep motivated.

 

The W26 can be sailed singlehanded - it is just a totally other concept of a sport boat then your 8.

 

But I don't want to interrupt your commercial campaign here on SA - so please carry on. biggrin.gif

 

 

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Rail meat is fast, everyone who has a good grasp on racing sail boats understands this. The fastest boats in the world all rely on crew weight at BMAX. This applies to ALL raceboats including Ocean. This is why boats like TP52 ect all have as large area of BMAX as possible. With a crew weight of only 250 Kgs thats about 3.5 crew, wont run a boat like that in race mode with 3.5 crew so a more realistic crew weight would be 360 KGs. But what do I know :) . Also the S/D of this boat is quite large so would be an interesting balance to sail, The genoa is HUGE!

Railmeat is fast - obviously. But on the other side: Railmeat sucks. Specially on a boat which has only jobs for 3. The rest is expensive, hard to find, hard to keep motivated.

 

The W26 can be sailed singlehanded - it is just a totally other concept of a sport boat then your 8.

 

But I don't want to interrupt your commercial campaign here on SA - so please carry on. biggrin.gif

 

 

Gee thanks for that!! According to the FT thread SA is a great forum to turn 100 sales into 1000!!!!! Only 3 jobs, please explain spinnaker drops to me with three crew in a race fleet? I guess at a pinch the skipper can do main, you preset jib, one does halyard/outhaul and the other hauls kite into bag and hopefully nothing goes wrong, we used to do this in the etchells, however we were not doing 15 knots! On another note does anyone have any info on the Sports 8 that went to England? I would love to see how its going.

 

With your enthusiasm to the Bavaria Golfa i'd love for you to be selling the sports 8 for me!

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Only 3 jobs, please explain spinnaker drops to me with three crew in a race fleet?

I guess at a pinch the skipper can do main, you preset jib, one does halyard/outhaul and the other hauls kite into bag and hopefully nothing goes wrong.

Someway like that. No problems at all. "Every crew member you add to a boat squares the potential problems." (Gary Jobson)

 

With your enthusiasm to the Bavaria Golfa i'd love for you to be selling the sports 8 for me!

If you give me one boat for free, I will be happy to promote it. But where in this thread can you find one single line from me being enthusiastic about B/One? Before you start building you should invest in contact lenses. biggrin.gif

 

 

I am sailing a 7m sportboat constructed for a crew of 3. Maybe not the fastest, but it suits my expectations.

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On another note does anyone have any info on the Sports 8 that went to England? I would love to see how its going.

Looks like it attended the famous Round The Isle regatta in 2007 and 2008: http://www.roundtheisland.org.uk (sail number GBR7958R, boat name G'DAY M8).

 

It was also competing in the Frostbite Series 2007 but that was bit of a disaster, probably because of the insane IRC rating (a rating system which doesn't like extreme sports boats).

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On another note does anyone have any info on the Sports 8 that went to England? I would love to see how its going.

Looks like it attended the famous Round The Isle regatta in 2007 and 2008: http://www.roundtheisland.org.uk (sail number GBR7958R, boat name G'DAY M8).

 

It was also competing in the Frostbite Series 2007 but that was bit of a disaster, probably because of the insane IRC rating (a rating system which doesn't like extreme sports boats).

 

 

Thanks GEERT. WOW they did hit it with a stupid IRC rating. This is a canter version of the Sports 8 and is about 350 kgs heavier than the XX (current) model. I wonder if it is the canter that has hit it so hard? There is a T7 dowm here IRC rated at 1.05 and when consideration is given to s/D etc a Sports 8 would rate 1.15 - 1.2 ish, but IRC is proving very unpopular down here as it seems to be somewhat biased :) in the keel boat fleet. Still when you look at the results they are pretty good considering! Again thanks for the links

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It was also competing in the Frostbite Series 2007 but that was bit of a disaster, probably because of the insane IRC rating (a rating system which doesn't like extreme sports boats).

More likely 5xDNC in 8 races.

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It was also competing in the Frostbite Series 2007 but that was bit of a disaster, probably because of the insane IRC rating (a rating system which doesn't like extreme sports boats).

More likely 5xDNC in 8 races.

 

 

I think it is the IRC rating! Would you want to race giving everyone 50 min in the hundred? Seems to be a pretty common thread DNC in this regatta????

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Anyway, it grabbed line honours on every race (also in the Round The Isle).

 

IRC and ORC are the main rating systems over here. Only some main events have a separate sports boat class. The rest of the season you'll be sailing IRC or ORC, which partly explains why extreme sports boats don't sell over here.

 

 

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Anyway, it grabbed line honours on every race (also in the Round The Isle).

No. Demarches Marketing (open 7.50) was 5 minutes faster in "Round the isle".

IRC and ORC are the main rating systems over here. Only some main events have a separate sports boat class. The rest of the season you'll be sailing IRC or ORC, which partly explains why extreme sports boats don't sell over here.

You come from NL? Take a look at the bigger Lakes. There are quite a few races for orc sportboats. For example Kreuzlingen with 50 boats.

 

 

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You come from NL?
Close :-)

 

Take a look at the bigger Lakes. There are quite a few races for orc sportboats. For example Kreuzlingen with 50 boats.
That's an 800km drive (through the mountains). I think I'll stay with IRC/ORC. Lot's of great events in close vicinity.

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Anyway, it grabbed line honours on every race (also in the Round The Isle).

 

IRC and ORC are the main rating systems over here. Only some main events have a separate sports boat class. The rest of the season you'll be sailing IRC or ORC, which partly explains why extreme sports boats don't sell over here.

 

 

 

 

Right, that explains alot! I am an IRC measurer in Aus, I am suprised at the number that has come back on S8 on IRC, maybe some development work needed in this regard, With only one S8 in Europe it will be hard to get IRC rating sorted and we have a very strong SB fleet down here so no one eneter IRC. I might have a discussion with RORC regarding a OD rating. Thanks for the heads up. I love this debate its healthy :D . Oh I may well be looking for an agent in Eurpoe if anyone is out there;)

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On another note does anyone have any info on the Sports 8 that went to England? I would love to see how its going.

Looks like it attended the famous Round The Isle regatta in 2007 and 2008: http://www.roundtheisland.org.uk (sail number GBR7958R, boat name G'DAY M8).

 

FWIW the race is called the "Round the Island". That result would have been in SBR not IRC, Not actually a bad result at 11th out of 36 but not in fact the fastest boat around in the class. That was a UFO 28.

 

14856.jpg

 

It was also competing in the Frostbite Series 2007 but that was bit of a disaster, probably because of the insane IRC rating (a rating system which doesn't like extreme sports boats).

 

I have friends who belong to the Cardiff Bay Yacht Club but not even they would say it would be the first choice of venue to publicise a new sports boat. Slightly amusing that owner Tony Rayer has more often been seen sailing an SB3.

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I actually understand racing an SB3, OD, plenty of numbers and great fun!!! I would love to see some more Sports 8 out there obviously and the S8XX model which is full carbon, 350 Kgs lighter, twin rudder, new keel is heaps faster and more user friendly than the Production S8. I am enjoying the feedback and great rivarly, keep it coming!!! What I would be really ineterested in is whether or not the Eurpoean market would be interested in Sports 8XX at a reasonable price, then Tony who seems to be handicapped to the hilt (50 in 100 come on) may start racing his S8 more, he would probably order one of the new ones from me then as well:D , although I diod read that he didnt get his boat on time or something and was a bit pissed about it???? Anyway that was another builder many moons ago.

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Gee thanks for that!! According to the FT thread SA is a great forum to turn 100 sales into 1000!!!!! Only 3 jobs, please explain spinnaker drops to me with three crew in a race fleet? I guess at a pinch the skipper can do main, you preset jib, one does halyard/outhaul and the other hauls kite into bag and hopefully nothing goes wrong, we used to do this in the etchells, however we were not doing 15 knots!

 

What does 15 knots have to do with the takedown. Most entry level match racing is tighter than this and runs a 3 man crew. What is so hard?

 

Driver does main and drive.

Foredeck

Presents jib sheet into cleat

Hoists jib

Takes toppy in hand and goes fwd to the halyard

 

on skipper call, blows Toppy and drops pole to deck. In an asso, you don't need to do this so skip this step

Trimmer

Blows Loaded sheet and starts hauling on lazy sheet to get it to weather (weather takedown - on a Mexican, trimmer just locks the sheet in the jib cleat and goes to trimming the jib)

Foredeck

helps haul around to weather

Blows halyard and stuffs kite in launcher bag

Trimmer

On asso - blows tack line- on Symm overhauls guy.

Helps stuff kite in launcher bag until Jib trim is needed then switches to jib trim

Fordeck

Finishes stuffing kite in launcher bag,

Cleans up pole (clears toppy if sym, releases pole-line on Asso)

Comes back and takes over main from Driver.

 

What is so bloody hard about that?

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What I would be really ineterested in is whether or not the Eurpoean market would be interested in Sports 8XX at a reasonable price
Like Golfa said, maybe at the bigger lakes like Bodensee (Germany/Switserland), Lago di Garda (Italy), Lago Maggiore (Italy/Switserland), or the French or Italian coasts of the Mediterranean Sea.

More to the North of Europe I don't think so; in general weather's too bad, regularly rough sea conditions, mostly OD or IRC/ORC racing, competition of local builders like http://www.stimsonyachts.com, second hand SB's remain unsold for >1 year (at low prices)...

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What I would be really ineterested in is whether or not the Eurpoean market would be interested in Sports 8XX at a reasonable price
Like Golfa said, maybe at the bigger lakes like Bodensee (Germany/Switserland), Lago di Garda (Italy), Lago Maggiore (Italy/Switserland), or the French or Italian coasts of the Mediterranean Sea.

More to the North of Europe I don't think so; in general weather's too bad, regularly rough sea conditions, mostly OD or IRC/ORC racing, competition of local builders like http://www.stimsonyachts.com, second hand SB's remain unsold for >1 year (at low prices)...

 

 

Thanks for that GEERT, This is very much appreciated. We would love to get some boats over there, however sounds like a very difficult market, that said the Sports 8XX would probably be the fastest SB over there as it is in AUS and NZ. I base this assumption on the few results you sent to me of the old heavy production version that is already over there, the XX model is HEAPS faster :D

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I thought this was a topic to hammer down the Bavaria.

Now we are talking about one of the better sportboats instead of talking on one of the worst boats.

Lets bash the Bavaria!

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What I would be really ineterested in is whether or not the Eurpoean market would be interested in Sports 8XX at a reasonable price
...maybe at the bigger lakes like Bodensee (Germany/Switserland)...

... We would love to get some boats over there, however sounds like a very difficult market, that said the Sports 8XX would probably be the fastest SB over there as it is in AUS and NZ....

I thought this was a topic to hammer down the Bavaria.

Lets bash the Bavaria!

 

 

For both we need data!

 

Bodensee= Lake Constance

Sportboat Division (from fast to slow):

 

Wilke 26

8m long, 2.55 m wide, 2.50m draft - 840 kg - 36m2 Main, 30m2 Genoa, 112m2 asymmetric kite

 

 

UFO 28 OD

8,6m, 3,6m, 1,9m - 1226 kg - 27, 20, 66 asymmetric

 

 

Onyx (no hiking allowed)

8,5m, 2,2m, 1,8m - 1025 kg - 25, 14, 72 asymmetric

 

 

Joker (Trapez)

8,1m, 2,7m, 1,6m - 830 kg - 23, 17, 41 symmetric

 

Longtze (Hiking straps)

6,8m, 2,56m, 1,77m - 650 kg - 22, 12, 60 asymmetric

 

Esse 850 (no hiking allowed)

8,5m, 2,2m, 2,0m - 1300 kg - 27, 17, 72 asymmetric

 

Jantar 26 Race (hiking straps)

7,8m, 2,5m, 1,6m - 1090 kg - 23,16, 67 asymmetric

 

8m OD

8m, 2,5m, 1,65m - 1185 kg - 24, 16, 80 symmetric

 

Melges 24

7,5m, 2,5 m, 1,5m - 860 kg - 21, 12, 56 asymmetric

 

Delphia 24 Sport

 

Mono 22 (hiking straps)

6,7m, 2,44m, 1,70m - 700 kg - 21, 9, 56 asymmetric

 

CQ-6 (no "real" sportboat per definition because too short)

5,8m, 2,3m, 1,7m - 508 kg - 21, 8, 46 asymmetric

 

Platu 25

7,5m, 2,55m, 1,57m - 1300 kg - 21, 13, 45 symmetric

 

First Class 8

7,8m, 2,5m, 1,8m - 1444 kg - 21, 18, 45 symmetric

 

J-80

8m, 2,5m, 1,5m - 1650 kg - 21, 13, 64 asymmetric

 

Scholz 22

6,8m, 2,5m, 1,4m - 750 kg - 18, 8, 41 asymmetric

 

 

Those are some of the boats which are racing under "sportboat category" (6-9m, <2k).

But you may not forget, that this area has quite a few lake racers which are no sportboats in this definition:

Asso 99, CR950, Libera, ...

 

If you want to sell a sportboat over here (more than one time) you have to mind some key points:

- MB over 2.55: you need an extra permission to get the trailer street legal for every ride or you have to put your boat tilted on the trailer

- MB over 3: you need an extra extra permission to get the trailer street legal for every ride

- Draft over 1.6: you need a lifting keel

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What I would be really ineterested in is whether or not the Eurpoean market would be interested in Sports 8XX at a reasonable price
...maybe at the bigger lakes like Bodensee (Germany/Switserland)...

... We would love to get some boats over there, however sounds like a very difficult market, that said the Sports 8XX would probably be the fastest SB over there as it is in AUS and NZ....

I thought this was a topic to hammer down the Bavaria.

Lets bash the Bavaria!

 

 

For both we need data!

 

Sports 8XX

525 kgs including ob, sails (in complete sail trim)

Draft 2.5 (yes lifting keel)

Trailer beam 2.4M, fold out wings 3.5M when sailing

Main 30 M2 +/- 2-3 m2

Jib (smallest) 19 M2, Genoa can be up to code zero so you figure out size, HUGE!

Spinake rMH 95 M2 assym

Fract 80 M2

Twin rudder

 

last sports boat race results see link http://www.topyacht....orts/SGrp18.htm

post-59603-012086400 1332321884_thumb.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

Bodensee= Lake Constance

Sportboat Division (from fast to slow):

 

Wilke 26

8m long, 2.55 m wide, 2.50m draft - 840 kg - 36m2 Main, 30m2 Genoa, 112m2 asymmetric kite

 

 

UFO 28 OD

8,6m, 3,6m, 1,9m - 1226 kg - 27, 20, 66 asymmetric

 

 

Onyx (no hiking allowed)

8,5m, 2,2m, 1,8m - 1025 kg - 25, 14, 72 asymmetric

 

 

Joker (Trapez)

8,1m, 2,7m, 1,6m - 830 kg - 23, 17, 41 symmetric

 

Longtze (Hiking straps)

6,8m, 2,56m, 1,77m - 650 kg - 22, 12, 60 asymmetric

 

Esse 850 (no hiking allowed)

8,5m, 2,2m, 2,0m - 1300 kg - 27, 17, 72 asymmetric

 

Jantar 26 Race (hiking straps)

7,8m, 2,5m, 1,6m - 1090 kg - 23,16, 67 asymmetric

 

8m OD

8m, 2,5m, 1,65m - 1185 kg - 24, 16, 80 symmetric

 

Melges 24

7,5m, 2,5 m, 1,5m - 860 kg - 21, 12, 56 asymmetric

 

Delphia 24 Sport

 

Mono 22 (hiking straps)

6,7m, 2,44m, 1,70m - 700 kg - 21, 9, 56 asymmetric

 

CQ-6 (no "real" sportboat per definition because too short)

5,8m, 2,3m, 1,7m - 508 kg - 21, 8, 46 asymmetric

 

Platu 25

7,5m, 2,55m, 1,57m - 1300 kg - 21, 13, 45 symmetric

 

First Class 8

7,8m, 2,5m, 1,8m - 1444 kg - 21, 18, 45 symmetric

 

J-80

8m, 2,5m, 1,5m - 1650 kg - 21, 13, 64 asymmetric

 

Scholz 22

6,8m, 2,5m, 1,4m - 750 kg - 18, 8, 41 asymmetric

 

 

Those are some of the boats which are racing under "sportboat category" (6-9m, <2k).

But you may not forget, that this area has quite a few lake racers which are no sportboats in this definition:

Asso 99, CR950, Libera, ...

 

If you want to sell a sportboat over here (more than one time) you have to mind some key points:

- MB over 2.55: you need an extra permission to get the trailer street legal for every ride or you have to put your boat tilted on the trailer

- MB over 3: you need an extra extra permission to get the trailer street legal for every ride

- Draft over 1.6: you need a lifting keel

For both we need data!

 

Sports 8XX

525 kgs including ob, sails (in complete sail trim)

Draft 2.5 (yes lifting keel)

Trailer beam 2.4M, fold out wings 3.5M when sailing

Main 30 M2 +/- 2-3 m2

Jib (smallest) 19 M2, Genoa can be up to code zero so you figure out size, HUGE!

Spinake rMH 95 M2 assym

Fract 80 M2

Twin rudder

 

last sports boat race results see link http://www.topyacht.net.au/results/2012/fos/sports/SGrp18.htm pic is Pierre Gals Kiss the latest build Sports 8xx

attachicon.gifsplash%201.jpg

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Sports 8XX

525 kgs including ob, sails (in complete sail trim)

Draft 2.5 (yes lifting keel)

Trailer beam 2.4M, fold out wings 3.5M when sailing

Main 30 M2 +/- 2-3 m2

Jib (smallest) 19 M2, Genoa can be up to code zero so you figure out size, HUGE!

Looks extreme. How would it sail upwind in 25 knots wind speed? How many people in the rail to handle it?

 

Is this the boat which was shipped to England:

? I guess about 14 knots wind speed and it looks like they don't dare to pull the chute :)

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Sports 8XX

525 kgs including ob, sails (in complete sail trim)

Draft 2.5 (yes lifting keel)

Trailer beam 2.4M, fold out wings 3.5M when sailing

Main 30 M2 +/- 2-3 m2

Jib (smallest) 19 M2, Genoa can be up to code zero so you figure out size, HUGE!

Looks extreme. How would it sail upwind in 25 knots wind speed? How many people in the rail to handle it?

 

Is this the boat which was shipped to England:

? I guess about 14 knots wind speed and it looks like they don't dare to pull the chute :)

 

 

Only a pussy wouldnt pull the chute! 25 knots is fine, 6 crew on the rail, however the one you see in england is I believe the older canter one, they should be fine with 4. On the East coats of Australia whwer theer are a half a dozen of these we regurarly race in the 15 -15 knot range. Airlie Beach Race week last year was a regatta of 20 plus knots, results were the same S8xx line honors every race!

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Shouldn't this forum be renamed to 'Extreme sportboats', because everything that doesn't plane at 10kts is being bashed? Like it or not but 99% of the people will consider this boat to be a sports boat, and according to ORC defenitions it is one.

 

 

More time and energy is spent debating whether something is or isn't a sportboat than anything else. It seems to give people a feeling of purpose. For those who are not concerned with a title or designation it sometimes provides insight into performance characteristics, but those times are rare.

 

 

Simple: EU and Rockall - sports boats forum (plane sometimes maybe if it blows ) Aussie, NZ, Map of Taz Sports boat Forum ( weight assisted dinghies. C'mon the water's warm buy an 18)

 

Looks like many producers are scaling down their anticipations of what new owners are going to buy /spend on racing.

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Looks like they scaled down the Soto 30/40and borrowed some excess bow volume from a Farr 400

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What I would be really ineterested in is whether or not the Eurpoean market would be interested in Sports 8XX at a reasonable price
Like Golfa said, maybe at the bigger lakes like Bodensee (Germany/Switserland), Lago di Garda (Italy), Lago Maggiore (Italy/Switserland), or the French or Italian coasts of the Mediterranean Sea.

More to the North of Europe I don't think so; in general weather's too bad, regularly rough sea conditions, mostly OD or IRC/ORC racing, competition of local builders like http://www.stimsonyachts.com, second hand SB's remain unsold for >1 year (at low prices)...

 

 

Thanks for that GEERT, This is very much appreciated. We would love to get some boats over there, however sounds like a very difficult market, that said the Sports 8XX would probably be the fastest SB over there as it is in AUS and NZ. I base this assumption on the few results you sent to me of the old heavy production version that is already over there, the XX model is HEAPS faster :D

We don't know how the sports 8 would go against the 4 up shaw 750 and 7. So I wouldn't jump to the conclusion it is the fastest in nz just yet.

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Sports 8XX

525 kgs including ob, sails (in complete sail trim)

Draft 2.5 (yes lifting keel)

Trailer beam 2.4M, fold out wings 3.5M when sailing

Main 30 M2 +/- 2-3 m2

Jib (smallest) 19 M2, Genoa can be up to code zero so you figure out size, HUGE!

Looks extreme. How would it sail upwind in 25 knots wind speed? How many people in the rail to handle it?

 

Is this the boat which was shipped to England:

? I guess about 14 knots wind speed and it looks like they don't dare to pull the chute :)

 

 

Only a pussy wouldnt pull the chute! 25 knots is fine, 6 crew on the rail, however the one you see in england is I believe the older canter one, they should be fine with 4. On the East coats of Australia whwer theer are a half a dozen of these we regurarly race in the 15 -15 knot range. Airlie Beach Race week last year was a regatta of 20 plus knots, results were the same S8xx line honors every race!

 

When will the first one hit the water?

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The 97th boat is delivered....

Fast growing class!

Where have they been sold? How many in EU? How many in US?

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Hey guys, when talking about numbers and the Euro sportboat scene don't forget about:

 

Thompson T8 - Code7

Sailing trim: 850 kg

Keel: 500kg

Draft: 2,2 m

Main: 36 m2

Jib: 21 - Fly genoa 30 m2

TM asymmetric 110 m2

Sleeps 4, squeezes 5 :)

 

Centomiglia del Garda class winner.

Barcolana class winner three years in a row...this year we finished 8.overall among 1800 boats!

...and raced on loads of long distance and double handed coastal races with success ...wet and fun on the 8m sportboat ;)

https://www.facebook.com/code7marine

 

Team, 7,5 knots upwind sounds impressive! What is the keel weight and cant angle?

 

Any pics of Seb Schmidt Wilke26?

 

 

 

Anarchist SiM (can't log in with the old acc)

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Where have they been sold? How many in EU? How many in US?

I just read about the fact, that they rolled the 97th boat out of the shipyard and sent it to the new owner.

IDK but I suppose the most of them are sold in EU. And I guess, that the most new owner orderd more than one (Charter, Clubs, ...).

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Hard to find out the number sold direct ot sailors. Bavaria - afaik - regular sells to their local / national distributers. Maybe they decided to go a different way on the B/one as they keep this boat off their regulair business model

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I now look after and sail the sports 8 xx talked about in thread and yes it does easy sevens uphill in fuckall breeze. Goes downhill like a tram ,it is the definition of sports boat. We have to sail 6 up for best performance uphill but you could sail 4 up if needed ,just would be a little undercooked grunt wise. Bavaria and sports boat should never be used in the same sentence let alone the same thread unless stating a fact about how you just lapped one.

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Goes downhill like a tram ,it is the definition of sports boat.

Which or whose Definition of Sport boat?

 

I don't see the point of the 8xx and it totally sucks to read about this spam here all the time.

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but we are reading about a 1000kg 23 footer in a sports boats thread

 

I agree it sucks you have to read the Bethwaite

 

post-3212-0-40787200-1351933003_thumb.jpg

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I would love to sail the Bethwaite once - that's for sure. But why do you try to occupy this thread here?

 

The B/one is an obese tank, but it fits in European's crappy definition of a sportboat (at least we do have a definition). It will be a big class and so it imho deserves an own thread here or elsewhere.

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I do hope you sell heaps and have great one design fleet. I just hope we don't have to sail on the same coarse as we ve had enough issues waiting for other so called sportsboats to finish so we can resume racing , how is this going to be any different to the other homeless boats in the marina namely sb3 , b one and the vx one etc at least the viper measures SMS so can actually sail as a sports boat in aus.

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