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    • UnderDawg

      A Few Simple Rules   05/22/2017

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Fritz

Chicago Mac

472 posts in this topic

Some friends just got a phone call from the CYC. There boat no longer qualfys for the Mac, due to Mininum stability Index. I have heard J 29, J 30, Soverell 33, Antrim 27, Mirage 335

Anyone have more info?

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I'd ask Snaggletooth....

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Please understand I heard this 2nd hand, but I trust there word. I think its a bunch of bull and I disagree if they are tossing these boats.

 

On the other hand the Hook Race might be Growing by leeps and bounds in 2012,

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Our daughter's boat, Rafiki, yep a J30, can't go, sadly. I can't get Quicksilver Mac ready, so...perhaps they can go on our former Mumm 36 Mrs.Jones with Mike Jones? Whitney sailed with them last year and loved it and of course knew the boat! If not, here is their resume:

- both have been sailing since birth

- Whitney has 8 Macs under her belt (Quicksilver, C&C 41, and Mrs. Jones, Mumm 36)

- Gator (Alison) has 6 Macs under her belt, same as above)

- both have 12+ Queen's Cups

- both went through the SSYC junior program, out of town regattas and such

- both were sailing instructors last summer

- Boat of the year on Mrs. Jones

- Boat of the year on Rafiki

- great crew members, good on watches, weather, and doing what it takes

- Gator is a great a bow chick, Whit is a great driver, but both can work all positions

 

Yea, I know I am sounding like the proud Mom (and I am), but the above is true. I'm not looking for a spot myself, just for my girls. I'm done with Macs and going to the ladies cocktail party. Any ideas for them are welcome and don't tell them that I put this "ad" out. They will kill me. But, I need to know what the options are and make sure it is a good fit. PM me is you have ideas. Thanks,

 

Mrs. Jones

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Some friends just got a phone call from the CYC. There boat no longer qualfys for the Mac, due to Mininum stability Index. I have heard J 29, J 30, Soverell 33, Antrim 27, Mirage 335

Anyone have more info?

OUCH - That sucks

After reading the Wingnuts report and its discussion of the boats stability (especially the LPS and SI numbers)I expected to see some boats given extra scrutiny in the "invitation" process. Especially the sportboat class. Call it guilt by association or whatever. Right or wrong, I expect all sportboats to get the spanish inquisition.

 

But I am surprised. I wouldn't have put some of the designs you named on my short list for extra stability scrutiny. It will be interesting to see where the lines are drawn.

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Right or wrong, I expect all sportboats to get the spanish inquisition.

 

 

Not sure if you mean the sportboat class, or specifically boats you consider sportboats. We were in sportboat with our Farr 36, and we were one of the highest stability boats in the race.

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If their going by SI, most of the boats that were in the sportboat class should be fine. They won't be able to touch the Flying Tiger 10 with a stability index of 126!

 

After going over the list, it looks like the J29s and J30s are going to get the shaft. Santana 35s have pretty low SI's around 103...

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Our daughter's boat, Rafiki, yep a J30, can't go, sadly. I can't get Quicksilver Mac ready, so...perhaps they can go on our former Mumm 36 Mrs.Jones with Mike Jones? Whitney sailed with them last year and loved it and of course knew the boat! If not, here is their resume:

- both have been sailing since birth

- Whitney has 8 Macs under her belt (Quicksilver, C&C 41, and Mrs. Jones, Mumm 36)

- Gator (Alison) has 6 Macs under her belt, same as above)

- both have 12+ Queen's Cups

- both went through the SSYC junior program, out of town regattas and such

- both were sailing instructors last summer

- Boat of the year on Mrs. Jones

- Boat of the year on Rafiki

- great crew members, good on watches, weather, and doing what it takes

- Gator is a great a bow chick, Whit is a great driver, but both can work all positions

 

Yea, I know I am sounding like the proud Mom (and I am), but the above is true. I'm not looking for a spot myself, just for my girls. I'm done with Macs and going to the ladies cocktail party. Any ideas for them are welcome and don't tell them that I put this "ad" out. They will kill me. But, I need to know what the options are and make sure it is a good fit. PM me is you have ideas. Thanks,

 

Mrs. Jones

 

Eh, you forgot contenders at the J/30 North Americans last year.

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Soverel 33? Really I own one and would not have thought it to be an issue. I do not race my own boat in the CHI MAC, but feel bad for the guys from ZOT, they have been racing it for years and have done well.

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I would feel safer on a J30 going to mac than all the boats listed below that went last year. i think it's great that CYC is adopting a policy for safety and stability, however, lets not get carried away with it. The J30 has been doing Macs for what, 30+ years or so. i've been on one in 30-40 kts with no problem.

 

T-10

J92

S2 9.2

Farr 30

J100

Flying Tiger 10

Express 27

Antrim 27

Olson 30

Synergy 1000

Henderson 30

Super Ray 33

Express 34

 

I'm not sure of the SIs for the boats listed, however after 18 macs I can judge for my self if I think a boat is safe for mac and the J30 is, IMHO. (not very fast...but safe;-)

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If their going by SI, most of the boats that were in the sportboat class should be fine. They won't be able to touch the Flying Tiger 10 with a stability index of 126!

 

After going over the list, it looks like the J29s and J30s are going to get the shaft. Santana 35s have pretty low SI's around 103...

 

is there a list of the SIs out there?

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If their going by SI, most of the boats that were in the sportboat class should be fine. They won't be able to touch the Flying Tiger 10 with a stability index of 126!

 

After going over the list, it looks like the J29s and J30s are going to get the shaft. Santana 35s have pretty low SI's around 103...

 

is there a list of the SIs out there?

 

Windward Leeward 50 50

 

Stability Index in the far right column..

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The arbitrary stability cutoff terrorists have won! Awesome! We surely will never see anything bad happen again. Arbitrary VPP stability number sof course are the most important factor in safety and heaven forfend educated, experience-based udgements of a yachts seaworthiness be used.

 

Advocates for seamanship meanwhile, lose.

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Our daughter's boat, Rafiki, yep a J30, can't go, sadly. I can't get Quicksilver Mac ready, so...perhaps they can go on our former Mumm 36 Mrs.Jones with Mike Jones? Whitney sailed with them last year and loved it and of course knew the boat! If not, here is their resume:

- both have been sailing since birth

- Whitney has 8 Macs under her belt (Quicksilver, C&C 41, and Mrs. Jones, Mumm 36)

- Gator (Alison) has 6 Macs under her belt, same as above)

- both have 12+ Queen's Cups

- both went through the SSYC junior program, out of town regattas and such

- both were sailing instructors last summer

- Boat of the year on Mrs. Jones

- Boat of the year on Rafiki

- great crew members, good on watches, weather, and doing what it takes

- Gator is a great a bow chick, Whit is a great driver, but both can work all positions

 

Yea, I know I am sounding like the proud Mom (and I am), but the above is true. I'm not looking for a spot myself, just for my girls. I'm done with Macs and going to the ladies cocktail party. Any ideas for them are welcome and don't tell them that I put this "ad" out. They will kill me. But, I need to know what the options are and make sure it is a good fit. PM me is you have ideas. Thanks,

 

Mrs. Jones

 

Bump for the girls on Rafiki. Met/Raced against them at the 2011 NA's and they're a good, smart bunch.

 

Agree that it's kind of lame that they bumped the J/30's... they're still one of my favorite boats to sail. Though I can see that after wingnuts a more careful look at stability is warranted.

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Right or wrong, I expect all sportboats to get the spanish inquisition.

 

 

Not sure if you mean the sportboat class, or specifically boats you consider sportboats. We were in sportboat with our Farr 36, and we were one of the highest stability boats in the race.

 

Sportboat Class. My personal definition is (of course) irrelevant.

 

No, I don't think all "sportboats" are evil. I just expect that type(cast) group of boats to receive extra scrutiny. Just like the Multihulls got extra attention after the Caliente episode.

 

I think we're going to see some sportboats (like yours) come out very well. And I expect some bad surprises from the 30 year IOR warhorses as well. Because we've never really looked at these numbers.

Yes, I have emailed my skipper to get our SI and LPS numbers, because I didn't have a clue as to what they were.

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anyone know what the SI magic number is for the mac?

110 degrees seemed to be the magic/minimum number reading the Wingnuts report. Wingnuts was at 100.7

 

But if you dig into Appendix B, Vessel Design Comments by Ralph Naranjo and Jim Teeters, you learn about the capsize increment, and the lower limit that the ORR applied. Without the lower limit, Wingnuts dropped from 100.7 degrees to only 74.4. That's a scary number.

 

Question for the design geeks: How can I (as crew) know if my boat's rating is benefiting/being camouflaged by the lower limit on the capsize limit?

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The boats suggested above support a minimum 105 SI or Cat 3. Most of the boats in the sportboat class have the SI to be able to race Cat 1 or 2 or over 110. Earlier the better so boats can modify and remeasure.

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Many thanks to Bow Movement for the link.

Very interesting.

 

I agree, anyone under 105 degrees seems to be (understandably) in danger of not making the cut. 100 degrees or lower, and you're out of here.

Can't tell if CYC is making the decision with or without the Capsize Increment lower limit.

 

Question: Is there room for appeal of the decision to uninvite?

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Just start your race to Mackinac in Port Huron. No silly stability numbers needed.

 

Just be ready to sail upwind.

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To ChiGuy,

Yea, the minute I hit reply I knew missed the J30 nationals , how could I miss that ? ......just a bit stressed with this story! GreAt grown-ups with the teenagers to bring home a fourth place; outstanding!

 

Also in looking through these stability factors tonight, it appears that Rafiki is 102.6 and you need to be 103. A big ouch to the J/30 group after all these races and all the years. I suppose that each J/30 will be a click different but each is so close!,,

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What would it take to get that extra .4?

port and starboard tapticians-it's a long race

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To ChiGuy,

Yea, the minute I hit reply I knew missed the J30 nationals , how could I miss that ? ......just a bit stressed with this story! GreAt grown-ups with the teenagers to bring home a fourth place; outstanding!

 

Also in looking through these stability factors tonight, it appears that Rafiki is 102.6 and you need to be 103. A big ouch to the J/30 group after all these races and all the years. I suppose that each J/30 will be a click different but each is so close!,,

 

Where did you get the 103 number?

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Image9.jpg

 

Can anyone explain the story about this J/30 jumping a wave?

 

Was it a previous Mackinac race?

 

Sad that CYC is heading in the wrong direction.

 

Leaping out of Michigan City Monday morning after a Tri State

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If their going by SI, most of the boats that were in the sportboat class should be fine. They won't be able to touch the Flying Tiger 10 with a stability index of 126!

 

After going over the list, it looks like the J29s and J30s are going to get the shaft. Santana 35s have pretty low SI's around 103...

 

Wow, talk about an overreaction. I sailed a Santana 35 for years, including a couple Chi Macs in the early 90's. It's a damn stable boat. Excluding the J29's and 30's, also stable boats, suggests the metrics for stability ratings are out of whack.

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Ted Turner Lost at Sea

 

Maybe us J/30 sailors should shift gears to Fastnet?

 

Maybe the boat is so dry inside because all of the water gets sponged into the hull core?

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I downloaded the index as an Excel file and re-sorted it by stability index numbers. This may make it easier to identify which boats may be at risk for exclusion from the race. SA web site won't let me upload it as an Excel file - so PDF was the best I could do.

StabIndexList.pdf

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I went through that US Sailing list looking for the boats that wouldn't make the cut. I think their calculation for stability is flawed. The numbers varied significantly between same hull design. The one that surprised me the most was the Hans Christian 43 with SI @ 84, thought that boat would have no problems going anywhere.

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of all the boats to not make the stability index, I don't think a J30 would have ever been on my list of "questionable" boats...

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Nothing in the MSR 2012 about stability index...I suspect this will be in the NOR?

 

Hrothgar

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To ChiGuy,

Yea, the minute I hit reply I knew missed the J30 nationals , how could I miss that ? ......just a bit stressed with this story! GreAt grown-ups with the teenagers to bring home a fourth place; outstanding!

 

Also in looking through these stability factors tonight, it appears that Rafiki is 102.6 and you need to be 103. A big ouch to the J/30 group after all these races and all the years. I suppose that each J/30 will be a click different but each is so close!,,

 

Where did you get the 103 number?

 

If 103 is the number, than make it comply. It won't take much to get those four clicks. Maybe just a proper measurement, would do it without any changes at all.

Like in the BDA race. Several boats made the number with a small amount of work. You're down, but not out.

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of all the boats to not make the stability index, I don't think a J30 would have ever been on my list of "questionable" boats...

 

I think one of the reasons its stability index is low is its beam to lenght ratio. Same with the J 29, which actually has a lower CG than a J30, but actually has a lower SI, according to the charts I've seen.

 

I can personally attest to being well beyond 100 degrees knocked down(we wiped the windex off the mast) in my J29, and she sprung right back up(after the spin halyard was eased!)

 

Olson 30's and Moore 24's also have a relatively low SI number and they are both proven offshore boats.

 

Any NA out there care to explain how these SI numbers are figured? Are they measured? Computed?

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To ChiGuy,

Yea, the minute I hit reply I knew missed the J30 nationals , how could I miss that ? ......just a bit stressed with this story! GreAt grown-ups with the teenagers to bring home a fourth place; outstanding!

 

Also in looking through these stability factors tonight, it appears that Rafiki is 102.6 and you need to be 103. A big ouch to the J/30 group after all these races and all the years. I suppose that each J/30 will be a click different but each is so close!,,

 

Where did you get the 103 number?

 

If 103 is the number, than make it comply. It won't take much to get those four clicks. Maybe just a proper measurement, would do it without any changes at all.

Like in the BDA race. Several boats made the number with a small amount of work. You're down, but not out.

 

That's what I was thinking.

 

Perhaps a keel shoe? :ph34r:

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To ChiGuy,

Yea, the minute I hit reply I knew missed the J30 nationals , how could I miss that ? ......just a bit stressed with this story! GreAt grown-ups with the teenagers to bring home a fourth place; outstanding!

 

Also in looking through these stability factors tonight, it appears that Rafiki is 102.6 and you need to be 103. A big ouch to the J/30 group after all these races and all the years. I suppose that each J/30 will be a click different but each is so close!,,

 

Where did you get the 103 number?

 

If 103 is the number, than make it comply. It won't take much to get those four clicks. Maybe just a proper measurement, would do it without any changes at all.

Like in the BDA race. Several boats made the number with a small amount of work. You're down, but not out.

 

That's what I was thinking.

 

Perhaps a keel shoe? :ph34r:

Yes. A keel shoe that is 1 design compliant. I hear it is a very expensive thing to have done. At leat on the east coast. City Island. Under the Shadow.

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So boats try to get there SI changed, OK it fits right in with CYC program! As I set it SPEND MORE $$$$$$. CYC should have done there job last year looking at suspect boat!

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Right or wrong, I expect all sportboats to get the spanish inquisition.

 

 

Not sure if you mean the sportboat class, or specifically boats you consider sportboats. We were in sportboat with our Farr 36, and we were one of the highest stability boats in the race.

 

 

The invited list does not include a single boat from the 2011 Sportboat catagory.

The Hook just gained a new catagory.

 

"This is the real time list of Invited Competitors for this year's Race To Mackinac." CYC

 

http://competitor.cycracetomackinac.com/invitees.cfm

http://competitor.cycracetomackinac.com/scratchbyclass.cfm?class=Sportboat

 

One of three Mumm 36's on the list?

Half the J35's, Tripp 33's? T10's gone?

Peerless made the list of invites? If a crane can't kill him no little Mac race should either!

Cones on the list! Thats two for the Sportboat catagory.(both boats did not participate in the 2011 race, now they have there own catagory!)

 

No phone call here? Reach around at least?

Did I miss something? I hate being on Port tack!

Ticklish

 

Stability issue? We had a full main in the big blow (three miles leeward of Wingnuts) hitting mid fifteens in a lightning storm was a trip!

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If 103 is the number, than make it comply. It won't take much to get those four clicks. Maybe just a proper measurement, would do it without any changes at all.

Like in the BDA race. Several boats made the number with a small amount of work. You're down, but not out.

 

That's what I was thinking.

 

Perhaps a keel shoe? :ph34r:

Yes. A keel shoe that is 1 design compliant. I hear it is a very expensive thing to have done. At leat on the east coast. City Island. Under the Shadow.

 

What is the definition of "one design compliant" anyways?

 

Lead bolted into the bilge that can be removed afterwards for OD events? I know the J/30 needs all the help it can get in light air but it seems like an easy way to get those 4 tenths and then lose them right after the race. Just pretend you're cheating in the J/24 class!

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Right or wrong, I expect all sportboats to get the spanish inquisition.

 

 

Not sure if you mean the sportboat class, or specifically boats you consider sportboats. We were in sportboat with our Farr 36, and we were one of the highest stability boats in the race.

 

 

The invited list does not include a single boat from the 2011 Sportboat catagory.

The Hook just gained a new catagory.

 

"This is the real time list of Invited Competitors for this year's Race To Mackinac." CYC

 

http://competitor.cycracetomackinac.com/invitees.cfm

http://competitor.cycracetomackinac.com/scratchbyclass.cfm?class=Sportboat

 

One of three Mumm 36's on the list?

Half the J35's, Tripp 33's? T10's gone?

Peerless made the list of invites? If a crane can't kill him no little Mac race should either!

Cones on the list! Thats two for the Sportboat catagory.(both boats did not participate in the 2011 race, now they have there own catagory!)

 

No phone call here? Reach around at least?

Did I miss something? I hate being on Port tack!

Ticklish

 

Stability issue? We had a full main in the big blow (three miles leeward of Wingnuts) hitting mid fifteens in a lightning storm was a trip!

 

It also doesn't include ANY of the boats that sailed in last years race. That's because it's the 2011 invitation list, once a boat signed up for the race they are taken off the invitation list.

 

I made the same mistake. It will interesting to see what the 2012 list will look like.

 

mak

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Right or wrong, I expect all sportboats to get the spanish inquisition.

 

 

Not sure if you mean the sportboat class, or specifically boats you consider sportboats. We were in sportboat with our Farr 36, and we were one of the highest stability boats in the race.

 

 

The invited list does not include a single boat from the 2011 Sportboat catagory.

The Hook just gained a new catagory.

 

"This is the real time list of Invited Competitors for this year's Race To Mackinac." CYC

 

http://competitor.cycracetomackinac.com/invitees.cfm

http://competitor.cycracetomackinac.com/scratchbyclass.cfm?class=Sportboat

 

One of three Mumm 36's on the list?

Half the J35's, Tripp 33's? T10's gone?

Peerless made the list of invites? If a crane can't kill him no little Mac race should either!

Cones on the list! Thats two for the Sportboat catagory.(both boats did not participate in the 2011 race, now they have there own catagory!)

 

No phone call here? Reach around at least?

Did I miss something? I hate being on Port tack!

Ticklish

 

Stability issue? We had a full main in the big blow (three miles leeward of Wingnuts) hitting mid fifteens in a lightning storm was a trip!

 

It also doesn't include ANY of the boats that sailed in last years race. That's because it's the 2011 invitation list, once a boat signed up for the race they are taken off the invitation list.

 

I made the same mistake. It will interesting to see what the 2012 list will look like.

 

mak

 

Well that was quick.

Just got a phone call from Ron White who told me to "Untie the knot in my underwear"

103 is the Magic number, we rate 107.5 so we are safe.(110 was a number discussed and quickly thrown out)

 

Maybe CYC should spend some of there Mac monies and UPDATE the site!

 

So much for this years excuse to do the Hook.

T.

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Since I've been quoted (and the quote was accurate), the new version of the Stability Index discussed in the Wimgnuts report is what will be used, and the minimum is 103. This index will be on the 2012 certificates. The impacted boats/owners have been contacted.

 

Please don't confuse LPS with Stability Index. If you have specific questions about your boat either contact me directly or the Offshore Office at US Sailing.

 

Ron White

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Since I've been quoted (and the quote was accurate), the new version of the Stability Index discussed in the Wimgnuts report is what will be used, and the minimum is 103. This index will be on the 2012 certificates. The impacted boats/owners have been contacted.

 

Please don't confuse LPS with Stability Index. If you have specific questions about your boat either contact me directly or the Offshore Office at US Sailing.

 

Ron White

 

 

Could you please provide a list of the types of boats that have been notified of their non-acceptable Stability Index for th 2012 CYC Mac.

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My yacht, my crew, and myself easily survived the worst of a downburst Lake Superior wall cloud storm with winds recorded 1/2 mile away of over 100mph. This storm lasted over 20 minutes for us and is the worst conditions I have ever seen in nature. We were knocked down maybe six times (as many yachts were in the 2011 incident), and came back up every time. My yacht is a 30-foot ULDB, with a calculated (though unmeasured) ORR SI of 99. So in other words, my boat has already proven itself in the exact same freak conditions as contemplated here. In addition, I have spent thousands of dollars preparing my boat for a Mac race. Wasted money and effort?

 

Tens of thousands of offshore racing miles have been completed uneventfully by hundreds, even thousands of yachts with SI numbers less than 103. Were they all just accidents waiting to happen? Were they just lucky?

 

With all due respect for all of CYC's hard work, your 103 cutoff is a major over-reaction to an outlier tragedy that occured to an outlier boat that many feel could have been excluded for a host of other reasons. This is what the phrase "throwing the baby out with the bathwater" was invented to describe. Hopefully you will devise an appeals process to review seaworthy boats that fall afoul of this one lone number criteria. For example, there is no reason why an under-canvassed, and historically capable J30 shouldn't be allowed to compete as they have uneventfully for dozens of years.

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This may be a really dumb question but I am going to ask it anyway.

 

If your SI is 103 or lower could you be allowed to add weight to the keel and be remeasured under ORR? I mean, the ORR should be able to producer a weight number that would put a boat in compliance for the Mac.

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For as long as I remember (and possibly from the beginning) they also have a minimum length requirement. "Boats shall be of a seaworthy offshore type construction of at least twenty-six (26) feet LOA."

 

Question: Why choose 26 feet for length? Are there not great offshore competitors under that length? (Thinking about a whole fleet of Mini-Transat 6.5's and Personally I think the Chi-Mac would be a blast in a Mini 6.5!)

 

Answer: They had to choose a specific length number and stick to it, otherwise anything under the number would be a valid exception.

 

The same applies to the SI number of 103. The race committee found a need to choose a number and they have done it, regardless of whether there are specific rides we think should be allowed due to past safe passages or not.

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If everyone agrees, we are not debating Ron White's/US Sailing definition of stability index.

 

The debate on the table, is CYC over reacting by choosing the Stability index cut off at 103?

 

The obvious answer is YES.

 

I suspect Chicago to Mackinac will quickly become the next Key West Race Week.

 

Hook 'em CYC

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If everyone agrees, we are not debating Ron White's/US Sailing definition of stability index.

 

The debate on the table, is CYC over reacting by choosing the Stability index cut off at 103?

 

The obvious answer is YES.

 

I suspect Chicago to Mackinac will quickly become the next Key West Race Week.

 

Hook 'em CYC

 

Are you the Wisco Clean? :P

 

I doubt that these new rules are going to kill the Chi-Mac.

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Image9.jpg

 

Can anyone explain the story about this J/30 jumping a wave?

 

Was it a previous Mackinac race?

 

Sad that CYC is heading in the wrong direction.

There's a Russian alpha squirtin torps at it

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I really do agree that it would suck (badly) to have no invitation, especially if you had been competing in past years' races. Putting myself in their shoes, I would be extremely unhappy.

 

That said, they cut off the entries every year pretty early due to hitting the max number of participants. So, does anyone think that the stability index requirement will kill the race?

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Image9.jpgThat's Tom Edman at the helm of his boat pronto come out of MI on Monday of a Tristate. Tom and Marilyn currently are partners in the J111 Night Hawk

Can anyone explain the story about this J/30 jumping a wave?

 

Was it a previous Mackinac race?

 

Sad that CYC is heading in the wrong direction.

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For as long as I remember (and possibly from the beginning) they also have a minimum length requirement. "Boats shall be of a seaworthy offshore type construction of at least twenty-six (26) feet LOA."

 

Question: Why choose 26 feet for length? Are there not great offshore competitors under that length? (Thinking about a whole fleet of Mini-Transat 6.5's and Personally I think the Chi-Mac would be a blast in a Mini 6.5!)

 

Answer: They had to choose a specific length number and stick to it, otherwise anything under the number would be a valid exception.

 

The same applies to the SI number of 103. The race committee found a need to choose a number and they have done it, regardless of whether there are specific rides we think should be allowed due to past safe passages or not.

 

I don't think that is a valid comparison at all. This stability index number does not seem to mesh, if you have the same boat with various SI numbers. At the 103 cut off, based on that US sailing ORR list there would be 2 Soverel 33-2 able to race and 2 that do not meet the 103 SI. This doesn't make sense. There must be an error in the calculation or an error in the measurement. Going through that list, the numbers are all over the place for the same boat. I know that there are boats out there with multiple configurations, but the ones i am looking at don't fall in that category either.

Setting a minimum SI may not have much affect on the race participation, but I feel the CYC has sorely missed on their attempt to improve safety regulations.

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J29 and J30 will be tough to alter design to meet the requirement. They would have to either replace keels to one with a bulb or go CF on their masts to be SI legal. Other boats that are close could just throw some weight in their bilge and be remeasured. It's all mathematics at this point, somebody with ORR knowledge would be able to help them solve the problem, or if it was me, I would talk to the Johnstone directly. They have plenty of time.

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Excellent point damcoyote... It would be interesting to see where the differences are on the S-33's and if there is a measurement problem.

I also know that I would hate to have done all my Mac races on a boat that had an SI of 102, only to have no invite this year! Hell, I didn't even know what my boat's SI was until I looked it up when they started discussing this topic this year.

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This year someone will hit a large log on the lake and next year all boats will have to get ultrasounds to ensure their hulls can take the beating.

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So...here is Spar Wars...Olson 30 Inboard. Stability index 100.7 and LPS of 107.5 in 2010.

 

Olson 30's have won TransPac's...talk about offshore! They've raced single handed.

 

There are lot's of knockdown pictures of Olson's...they race San Francisco Bay. Most are spin run's with a smaller rudder. NONE have ever capsized. My boat has an optional elliptical rudder, much deeper and prevents wild wipeouts. Olson's never reef...they don't need to, the small main allows plenty of drive.

 

The 103 number means nothing from what I can figure. I have a 9' beam, yet the J/29 is 12'...and the J/29 gets a penalty for beam.

 

I'm talking to ORR/USSA to see if the 2012 numbers will be different from prior.

 

Olson's do not capsize.

 

Anybody want to buy some SOLAS flares/parachutes? Looks like I don't need an EPIRB. The new MOB pole...only used one in 2010. Gee..can I return the NEW main & Genoa bought to win the ChiMac this year?

 

Sure hoping ORR does some magic with the numbers. I can't believe this boat doesn't qualify.

 

When we tied up at Mackinac Island last year (raced on a Bene 36.7) I had a gut feeling the knee jerk reaction would cut my boat out in 2012. I posted that after the race on SA and was assured by someone at CYC 'that won't happen''the O30 will be fine'.

 

We'll see...I'm the one knee jerking at the moment. I can only hope the numbers are fixed for my boat.

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Fellow Mac Sailors and Friends:

 

On behalf of the Chicago Yacht Club Race to Mackinac Committee, I am pleased to announce that the Notice and Conditions of Race (NOR) for the 2012 Chicago Yacht Club Race to Mackinac, presented by Veuve Clicquot, is now available on our website. Simply go to www.cycracetomackinac.com, click on Race Documents, and click on Notice of Race (2012). The committee has been very hard at work in the off season preparing the infrastructure for the 104th. The volunteer hours are already off the charts!

 

It goes without saying that we had to make some difficult decisions in organizing the 104th running. The changes that we have implemented were made with careful cooperation and consultation with naval architects and US Sailing. As it has always been, our goal is to run a safe, quality event for all yet preserving the tradition of the MAC. We will be releasing a Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) guide to the changes implemented, and we will be running a couple of seminars that we will host to answer some of your questions.

 

One of the many areas that we have addressed is the issue of minimum stability for a boat’s eligibility to compete in the race. ORR has adopted the new version of the Stability Index discussed in the US Sailing report of the 2011 Race, and this will appear on your 2012 ORR certificate. The minimum Stability Index required has been established at 103. Owners of boats from the 2011 race affected by this requirement have already been contacted. If you have specific questions about the Stability Index for your boat for 2012, these should be directed to the Offshore Office at US Sailing.

 

The Mackinac Safety Regulations (MSRs) have been published and are available on the Race Documents tab of the website as well. Automatic Invitations which, with a few exceptions, go to competitors who have competed in at least one of the last four races, will go out on or about February 5, 2012. We encourage you to accept your invitation and pay your entry to assure your place on the 2012 race. Invitations to those going through the RFI process will start going out on or about February 20, 2012. If you are Requesting an Invitation, please be sure your information is as complete as possible so that the Selections Committee can review your request without delays and without having to come back to you for more information. Pleas also make sure that you have reviewed the NOR for eligibility requirements.

 

As previously mentioned we will be hosting two seminars at Strictly Sail his weekend to help guide you through the changes for 2012. Don't forget Strictly Sail this weekend in Chicago, at Navy Pier and the Pink Pony Party at the CYC clubhouse in Belmont Harbor on Saturday, January 22, 2012 from 6:00PM till Midnight.

 

As always, if you have any questions, please contact our Race Coordinator at racecoordinator@chicagoyachtclub.org

 

We look forward to seeing quite a few of you this weekend and in the months to come.

 

Best Regards,

 

Lou Sandoval

Chairman

104th Chicago Yacht Club Race to Mackinac presented by Veuve Clicquot

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The stability index presented in this thread also eliminates J35's at a 102 measurement. WTF somethings cocked.

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The people that bitch about the cost of a life raft are going to spend how much money to modify their boat to make the ORR magic number?

 

Very little I would guess.

 

And what will those mods do to their ratings?

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So...here is Spar Wars...Olson 30 Inboard. Stability index 100.7 and LPS of 107.5 in 2010.

 

Olson 30's have won TransPac's...talk about offshore! They've raced single handed.

 

There are lot's of knockdown pictures of Olson's...they race San Francisco Bay. Most are spin run's with a smaller rudder. NONE have ever capsized. My boat has an optional elliptical rudder, much deeper and prevents wild wipeouts. Olson's never reef...they don't need to, the small main allows plenty of drive.

 

The 103 number means nothing from what I can figure. I have a 9' beam, yet the J/29 is 12'...and the J/29 gets a penalty for beam.

 

I'm talking to ORR/USSA to see if the 2012 numbers will be different from prior.

 

Olson's do not capsize.

 

Anybody want to buy some SOLAS flares/parachutes? Looks like I don't need an EPIRB. The new MOB pole...only used one in 2010. Gee..can I return the NEW main & Genoa bought to win the ChiMac this year?

 

Sure hoping ORR does some magic with the numbers. I can't believe this boat doesn't qualify.

 

When we tied up at Mackinac Island last year (raced on a Bene 36.7) I had a gut feeling the knee jerk reaction would cut my boat out in 2012. I posted that after the race on SA and was assured by someone at CYC 'that won't happen''the O30 will be fine'.

 

We'll see...I'm the one knee jerking at the moment. I can only hope the numbers are fixed for my boat.

 

 

JUST GOT A REPLY FROM ORR TECH:

 

Currently “Spar Wars III” does not qualify with the new stability requirements. However it needs to be noted that the stability of the boat is being calculated from sister ship values. In reality there is a high probability the boat will have a higher stability if she were measured. Of the Olson 30’s we have on file they currently range in Stability Indices with a high at 106.2 to a low ( your boat) at 100.9. If you do decide to have the boat measured, we are happy to work with you, and the measurers to aid in set up of the boat for measurement, and complete real time calculations to make sure the boat can meet the new stability index requirements.

 

 

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So...here is Spar Wars...Olson 30 Inboard. Stability index 100.7 and LPS of 107.5 in 2010.

 

Olson 30's have won TransPac's...talk about offshore! They've raced single handed.

 

There are lot's of knockdown pictures of Olson's...they race San Francisco Bay. Most are spin run's with a smaller rudder. NONE have ever capsized. My boat has an optional elliptical rudder, much deeper and prevents wild wipeouts. Olson's never reef...they don't need to, the small main allows plenty of drive.

 

The 103 number means nothing from what I can figure. I have a 9' beam, yet the J/29 is 12'...and the J/29 gets a penalty for beam.

 

I'm talking to ORR/USSA to see if the 2012 numbers will be different from prior.

 

Olson's do not capsize.

 

Anybody want to buy some SOLAS flares/parachutes? Looks like I don't need an EPIRB. The new MOB pole...only used one in 2010. Gee..can I return the NEW main & Genoa bought to win the ChiMac this year?

 

Sure hoping ORR does some magic with the numbers. I can't believe this boat doesn't qualify.

 

When we tied up at Mackinac Island last year (raced on a Bene 36.7) I had a gut feeling the knee jerk reaction would cut my boat out in 2012. I posted that after the race on SA and was assured by someone at CYC 'that won't happen''the O30 will be fine'.

 

We'll see...I'm the one knee jerking at the moment. I can only hope the numbers are fixed for my boat.

 

 

JUST GOT A REPLY FROM ORR TECH:

 

Currently “Spar Wars III” does not qualify with the new stability requirements. However it needs to be noted that the stability of the boat is being calculated from sister ship values. In reality there is a high probability the boat will have a higher stability if she were measured. Of the Olson 30’s we have on file they currently range in Stability Indices with a high at 106.2 to a low ( your boat) at 100.9. If you do decide to have the boat measured, we are happy to work with you, and the measurers to aid in set up of the boat for measurement, and complete real time calculations to make sure the boat can meet the new stability index requirements.

 

 

 

 

How did my boat get so lucky? Looks like I'll be getting measured after I find out how the 106 boat got to that rating vs mine being the rock bottom. Maybe I'll get a better rating out of this!!!

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Boats float higher in salt water.

 

Does fresh water increase a boats stability index?

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So...here is Spar Wars...Olson 30 Inboard. Stability index 100.7 and LPS of 107.5 in 2010.

 

Olson 30's have won TransPac's...talk about offshore! They've raced single handed.

 

There are lot's of knockdown pictures of Olson's...they race San Francisco Bay. Most are spin run's with a smaller rudder. NONE have ever capsized. My boat has an optional elliptical rudder, much deeper and prevents wild wipeouts. Olson's never reef...they don't need to, the small main allows plenty of drive.

 

The 103 number means nothing from what I can figure. I have a 9' beam, yet the J/29 is 12'...and the J/29 gets a penalty for beam.

 

I'm talking to ORR/USSA to see if the 2012 numbers will be different from prior.

 

Olson's do not capsize.

 

Anybody want to buy some SOLAS flares/parachutes? Looks like I don't need an EPIRB. The new MOB pole...only used one in 2010. Gee..can I return the NEW main & Genoa bought to win the ChiMac this year?

 

Sure hoping ORR does some magic with the numbers. I can't believe this boat doesn't qualify.

 

When we tied up at Mackinac Island last year (raced on a Bene 36.7) I had a gut feeling the knee jerk reaction would cut my boat out in 2012. I posted that after the race on SA and was assured by someone at CYC 'that won't happen''the O30 will be fine'.

 

We'll see...I'm the one knee jerking at the moment. I can only hope the numbers are fixed for my boat.

 

 

JUST GOT A REPLY FROM ORR TECH:

 

Currently “Spar Wars III” does not qualify with the new stability requirements. However it needs to be noted that the stability of the boat is being calculated from sister ship values. In reality there is a high probability the boat will have a higher stability if she were measured. Of the Olson 30’s we have on file they currently range in Stability Indices with a high at 106.2 to a low ( your boat) at 100.9. If you do decide to have the boat measured, we are happy to work with you, and the measurers to aid in set up of the boat for measurement, and complete real time calculations to make sure the boat can meet the new stability index requirements.

 

 

 

 

How did my boat get so lucky? Looks like I'll be getting measured after I find out how the 106 boat got to that rating vs mine being the rock bottom. Maybe I'll get a better rating out of this!!!

This looks more like a money grab then a safety measure.

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This looks more like a money grab then a safety measure.

 

 

Yeah - thanks Obama!

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The stability index presented in this thread also eliminates J35's at a 102 measurement. WTF somethings cocked.

 

 

I saw that...crazy. Read the reply I got from ORR tech: probably a penalty stability (?) if using sistership details?

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If everyone agrees, we are not debating Ron White's/US Sailing definition of stability index.

 

The debate on the table, is CYC over reacting by choosing the Stability index cut off at 103?

 

The obvious answer is YES.

 

I suspect Chicago to Mackinac will quickly become the next Key West Race Week.

 

Hook 'em CYC

 

Are you the Wisco Clean? :P

 

I doubt that these new rules are going to kill the Chi-Mac.

 

Yes, I believe that attendance at Hook will increase and attendance at Chicago to Mackinac will decrease. Let's compare notes after both regattas.

 

CYC is most likely doing this to protect against legal risks. Sometimes the priority is not always about sailing and safety.

 

In my opinion, the requirement for 30% of the crew to pass the Safety at Sea training is RIGHT ON TARGET. This is the solution vs. tossing boats with proven safety records.

 

Peace Out,

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Thats only one J35 that raced double handed last year. The rest of the J35s are ok at 111.5

 

The stability index presented in this thread also eliminates J35's at a 102 measurement. WTF somethings cocked.

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The Chicago to Mac entry is at capacity every year, The RC turns away entries every year. There will be sufficient interest to fill in the spots of boats that can no longer compete.

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Thats only one J35 that raced double handed last year. The rest of the J35s are ok at 111.5

 

The stability index presented in this thread also eliminates J35's at a 102 measurement. WTF somethings cocked.

 

OMG!!!!

 

And they didn't even know they were taking their own lives into their hands!!!???!!!!!

 

Danger, danger, Will Robinson!!!!! Must. Save. Them. From. Selves.

 

I especially like how they pass the buck to Jim Teeters. Don't like it? Talk to ORR about your index.

 

Sorry REW, but you all must have known the ridicule this would enflame. People who have sunk a lot of money in race prep and now are blindsided are going to be rightly angered. And yes, we all know this is about the lawyers, not actual safety. What a joke this country is becoming, and multihulls are next. First they came for the small boats, then they came for the light boats, then they came for the beamy boats, next they'll come for the multihulls. "I understand when they flip, they don't come back upright, isn't that true?", asks the lawyer in risk analysis.

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The Chicago to Mac entry is at capacity every year, The RC turns away entries every year. There will be sufficient interest to fill in the spots of boats that can no longer compete.

 

Irrelevant.

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Right or wrong, I expect all sportboats to get the spanish inquisition.

 

 

Not sure if you mean the sportboat class, or specifically boats you consider sportboats. We were in sportboat with our Farr 36, and we were one of the highest stability boats in the race.

 

 

The invited list does not include a single boat from the 2011 Sportboat catagory.

The Hook just gained a new catagory.

 

"This is the real time list of Invited Competitors for this year's Race To Mackinac." CYC

 

http://competitor.cy...om/invitees.cfm

http://competitor.cy...class=Sportboat

 

One of three Mumm 36's on the list?

Half the J35's, Tripp 33's? T10's gone?

Peerless made the list of invites? If a crane can't kill him no little Mac race should either!

Cones on the list! Thats two for the Sportboat catagory.(both boats did not participate in the 2011 race, now they have there own catagory!)

 

No phone call here? Reach around at least?

Did I miss something? I hate being on Port tack!

Ticklish

 

Stability issue? We had a full main in the big blow (three miles leeward of Wingnuts) hitting mid fifteens in a lightning storm was a trip!

 

I'm pretty sure that invited list was for 2011 as the invitations have not yet been sent out for the 2012 event.

 

Also, boats disappear from that list as they sign up for this year's event so those that list would be the the invited competitors for 2011 that didn't actually signed up which would explain why none of the Sport boats are listed - all invited registered in 2011.

 

I'll get it cleaned up for 2012.

 

LZ

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The Chicago to Mac entry is at capacity every year, The RC turns away entries every year. There will be sufficient interest to fill in the spots of boats that can no longer compete.

 

Irrelevant.

 

Whatever it is it doesn't matter. CYC has set the bar, they know people will be upset and rightfully so. This will blow over and come July 21st 355 boats will be racing North.

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The Chicago to Mac entry is at capacity every year, The RC turns away entries every year. There will be sufficient interest to fill in the spots of boats that can no longer compete.

 

Irrelevant.

 

Whatever it is it doesn't matter. CYC has set the bar, they know people will be upset and rightfully so. This will blow over and come July 21st 355 boats will be racing North.

 

Bullshit.

 

How's that sweet ride that somebody else pays for going for you?

 

Buy your own boat, then we'll talk.

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The Chicago to Mac entry is at capacity every year, The RC turns away entries every year. There will be sufficient interest to fill in the spots of boats that can no longer compete.

 

Irrelevant.

 

Whatever it is it doesn't matter. CYC has set the bar, they know people will be upset and rightfully so. This will blow over and come July 21st 355 boats will be racing North.

 

Bullshit.

 

How's that sweet ride that somebody else pays for going for you?

 

Buy your own boat, then we'll talk.

 

Careful herbito,

 

You are starting sound like AKAGP. Not good.

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How's that sweet ride that somebody else pays for going for you?

 

It's going great! It's never felt better to have a fatter ass.

 

Thanks for asking. ;)

 

Oh and by the way I do own my own boat.

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Hey Heriberto, which part of Sailor90's comment was BS in your opinion? Was it the statement that CYC set the bar or that there will be 355 boats racing North?

Sailor90 said nothing here that would warrant the Bullshit call. There are a number of boatowners and sailors who will be unhappy and call BS on CYC, but Sailor90 was fine with what he said.

 

As for the buy a boat thing, he certainly has the right to comment on a sailing forum without owning. What's more, how great it can be when you are good enough and prove yourself on the water. The boat owners seek you out to play with their expensive floating toys... All you gotta do is show up with a lifejacket. Foulies and boots are optional. Those are the days right there!

 

oops too slow, I see he is an owner.

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I have to agree with Herbito, Money has been spent by these boat owners, A good percent for the Mac year after year. They keep coming back, they love the race! Now they been thrown out with the bath water. There baby just lost resale value. The Mac Req. equipment ( great for safety), but no longer needed, zero value. Its easy for some of you to say others will fill the spots, they will. But CYC and US sailing just dumped on a whole lot of OUR friends and fellow competors.

 

Personaly it pisses me off, My boat is safe, but if this happend to me, words could not describe my anger!

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I wonder if the boat in the ad for non-skid on the front page meets the stability index minimum?

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How are multi-hulls still able to race? They capsize on a regular basis and cannot right themselves. If that is what this new rule is all about.

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We did get a call from Ron White yesterday about the girl's J/30 Rafiki not being invited. Bummer, just .4 off making entry. We appreciated his advance warning and that is where we got the 103 (someone asked). Someone else asked if there wasn't a way to modify for that difference. Yes there is, but it requires time and money, something we don't have a lot of right now. I also have the option of putting my boat Quicksilver in the race, which I have times before, but there is a discrepancy with my sister ships (Hasten, Titan, all C&C 41s). Again, just can't swing the financial part of modification, measureing, etc.

 

In any case, it is just a bummer that the J/30s which often include sailing families have been put out of business, so to speak. The girls have had great opportunites through the J/30 and perhaps you saw NOYC's post photo of the five plaques he has on his J/30. He is the passionate guy that arranged the girls going to the nationals, can't thank him enough. Great stuff and he is out too.

 

Safety is key, no doubt. Some of you may have read my post about the girls doing the double-handed Queen's Cup on Rafiki. Man, scary as a Mom, but we went through a lot of safety talk and such. I wonder what trickle down this may have on races like that. They want to double again, but perhaps rules will rule them out. We'll see.

 

This basically comes down to money. I'm not going to spend anything to modify, measure, etc. With the loss of the small boats, it will not be a big deal to the race. They always fill and will fill with the big boats with big budgets. The little boats are passionate about the sport but don't have big budgets. They won't spend the same dollars for registration or at the club. It won't hurt the race, event, or incoming revenue. It just hurts the sport, the excitment, and at least on my end, the family opportunities to do a great event that we love. For the record, here's our family stats on the Mac races (Eric Jones - 36ish Macs, Cheri - 6, Whitney - 8, Gator (Alison) - 6. Clearly, we are passionate. Thanks for reading,

 

Mrs.Jones (Cheri Kent Jones)

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Bullshit number one: 355 boats. I seriously doubt that is going to happen. The boats that are on the waiting list are typically smaller and third tier already. The first year I was on the list, I got on.

 

 

Bullshit number two: saying this will "blow over", like the people who have gotten screwed are little children who will just forget about it. Not going to happen. There is no reason for this aside from ass-covering.

 

 

Yes, people without boats are free to comment, what they aren't free to do is imply that people who invested a lot of time and money in their boats and program to do this race should just suck it up and get over themselves. As for my assumption that he doesn't own a boat affected by this, well, maybe I'm wrong. He has been talking a lot about this 86-footer program, and I see he is also an A-boater and TP52 guy, so hey, good on ya, at 23 years old you must be a financial genius. Or lucky sperm club. Same thing really, so I'm told.

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one last thing...my stability index is 103 right now, but I am going to SSYC for Taco Thursday and I will soon be at a stability index of 75. Just needed to add a light note here! PS, the margs are great at taco nights!

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What's more, how great it can be when you are good enough and prove yourself on the water. The boat owners seek you out to play with their expensive floating toys... All you gotta do is show up with a lifejacket. Foulies and boots are optional. Those are the days right there!

 

 

Good god. Are you for real?

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Cheri, the girls would always be welcome on my boat and I'm sure would never have a problem finding a ride. Hope they don't mind racing with Billy W occasionally.

 

I'm really bummed for you and for them.

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Bullshit number one: 355 boats. I seriously doubt that is going to happen. The boats that are on the waiting list are typically smaller and third tier already. The first year I was on the list, I got on.

 

 

Bullshit number two: saying this will "blow over", like the people who have gotten screwed are little children who will just forget about it. Not going to happen. There is no reason for this aside from ass-covering.

 

 

Yes, people without boats are free to comment, what they aren't free to do is imply that people who invested a lot of time and money in their boats and program to do this race should just suck it up and get over themselves. As for my assumption that he doesn't own a boat affected by this, well, maybe I'm wrong. He has been talking a lot about this 86-footer program, and I see he is also an A-boater and TP52 guy, so hey, good on ya, at 23 years old you must be a financial genius. Or lucky sperm club. Same thing really, so I'm told.

 

I didn't tell you to suck it up, truly I’m sorry you can no longer compete in such a great race.

 

You have plenty of options though

 

A.) Shorten you rig

 

B.) Lengthen your boat

 

C.) Organize your own race

 

I am where I am in this sport because I am so passionate about it. My passion and hard work has awarded me the opportunity to rise to higher levels in this sport. Say what you like I’d still buy you a beer and listen to you’re grievances.

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Simply re-posting this file for those who don't want to go all the way back to page 4 to find it. It is the 50/50 scratch sheet re-sorted according to Stability Index ratings. This makes it quick and easy to see which boats could be impacted by this rule.

StabIndexList.pdf

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Bullshit number one: 355 boats. I seriously doubt that is going to happen. The boats that are on the waiting list are typically smaller and third tier already. The first year I was on the list, I got on.

 

 

Bullshit number two: saying this will "blow over", like the people who have gotten screwed are little children who will just forget about it. Not going to happen. There is no reason for this aside from ass-covering.

 

 

Yes, people without boats are free to comment, what they aren't free to do is imply that people who invested a lot of time and money in their boats and program to do this race should just suck it up and get over themselves. As for my assumption that he doesn't own a boat affected by this, well, maybe I'm wrong. He has been talking a lot about this 86-footer program, and I see he is also an A-boater and TP52 guy, so hey, good on ya, at 23 years old you must be a financial genius. Or lucky sperm club. Same thing really, so I'm told.

 

I didn't tell you to suck it up, truly I’m sorry you can no longer compete in such a great race.

 

You have plenty of options though

 

A.) Shorten you rig

 

B.) Lengthen your boat

 

C.) Organize your own race

 

I am where I am in this sport because I am so passionate about it. My passion and hard work has awarded me the opportunity to rise to higher levels in this sport. Say what you like I’d still buy you a beer and listen to you’re grievances.

 

Wow.

 

You are truly an inspiration to all of the rest of us who have never been able to match your level of passion and hard work for sailing.

 

But you do make me laugh "buy you a beer and listen to you're(sic) grievences." Man that, plus your ridiculous A, B, C options are pure comedy.

 

So A, shorthen your mast, you know that wouldn't have squat to do with your SI as it is measured and calculated, right? And anyway, whaaaaa? Why ever in the fuck would you do that? So then B, what, with an enlarged board stretcher? And finally C, well, I'm guessing that out of the two of us, one of us has actually run regattas, and that would be me. Not interested in doing it again, but my guess is you will see regattas to fill the gap.

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It's a shame your so bitter.

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Agree with Cheri, this only hurts the sport. The grass roots races like club racing, solo and double-handed events, Queens Cup, HOOK seem a lot more appealing.

 

 

The June 23rd, 2012 Solo Chicago-Mac - unsanctioned since 1997. Visit us in booth 599 at Strictly Sail. J/30s, J/29s, Olson 30s, etc. are welcome.

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It's a shame your so bitter.

 

Its a shame you are so immature. Nobody needs your pompous condescension.

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Thanks jwmc. Do you run a doublehanded?

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