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    • UnderDawg

      A Few Simple Rules   05/22/2017

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punter

VOR Leg 4

1,281 posts in this topic

Interesting course going over the top of the Flips but will at least take some of the risk of grounding, catching nets etc out if it somewhat. Pity they didn't put a turning mark off Hong Kong in the harbour though!

I reckon Tele will have their work cut out this time but do think it is wide open still. Be interesting to see if some of the local knowledge from the people that come from a land down under will pay off.

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Who was it last time that went between the islands?

In the Fijian group i think... :unsure:

They'll be well off to the West of them this time i take it?

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From Aksel's twitter - Forecast for leg 4 start: NE 40 knots, 6 meter waves and maybe a cyclone just to the south adding heaps to this

 

Now that looks like a nice ride.

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From Aksel's twitter - Forecast for leg 4 start: NE 40 knots, 6 meter waves and maybe a cyclone just to the south adding heaps to this

 

Now that looks like a nice ride.

 

Oh hell yeah!

 

(I'll be glad to be following it from my nice cozy office - with a scotch in hand.)

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Shite....!!Pity they can't go around the South of the Phillipines....

Only take half a day.

EEEEASE !!! :ph34r:

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Iker & Xabi have spent most of their time in Spain between legs 3 & 4 training their 49er for the Olympics... I think they deserve what they have!

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Iker & Xabi have spent most of their time in Spain between legs 3 & 4 training their 49er for the Olympics... I think they deserve what they have!

 

that's dedication....they should give up 49er as no-one will beat the aussies :D

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Iker & Xabi have spent most of their time in Spain between legs 3 & 4 training their 49er for the Olympics... I think they deserve what they have!

 

that's dedication....they should give up 49er as no-one will beat the aussies :D

 

Just a friendly reminder :D

 

Iker & Xabi:

2001 World Championship 2nd

2001 European Championship 2nd

2002 World Championship 1st

2002 European Championship 1st

2003 European Championship 3rd

2004 Athens Olympics Gold

2004 World Championship 1st

2006 European Championship 3rd

2007 European Championship 1st

2008 European Championship 1st

2008 Beijin Olympics Silver

2010 World Championship 1st

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Iker & Xabi have spent most of their time in Spain between legs 3 & 4 training their 49er for the Olympics... I think they deserve what they have!

 

that's dedication....they should give up 49er as no-one will beat the aussies :D

 

Just a friendly reminder :D

 

Iker & Xabi:

2001 World Championship 2nd

2001 European Championship 2nd

2002 World Championship 1st

2002 European Championship 1st

2003 European Championship 3rd

2004 Athens Olympics Gold

2004 World Championship 1st

2006 European Championship 3rd

2007 European Championship 1st

2008 European Championship 1st

2008 Beijin Olympics Silver

2010 World Championship 1st

 

boom.

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Iker & Xabi have spent most of their time in Spain between legs 3 & 4 training their 49er for the Olympics... I think they deserve what they have!

 

that's dedication....they should give up 49er as no-one will beat the aussies :D

 

Just a friendly reminder :D

 

Iker & Xabi:

2001 World Championship 2nd

2001 European Championship 2nd

2002 World Championship 1st

2002 European Championship 1st

2003 European Championship 3rd

2004 Athens Olympics Gold

2004 World Championship 1st

2006 European Championship 3rd

2007 European Championship 1st

2008 European Championship 1st

2008 Beijin Olympics Silver

2010 World Championship 1st

A bit slack in 2005??

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Iker & Xabi have spent most of their time in Spain between legs 3 & 4 training their 49er for the Olympics... I think they deserve what they have!

 

that's dedication....they should give up 49er as no-one will beat the aussies :D

 

Just a friendly reminder :D

 

Iker & Xabi:

2001 World Championship 2nd

2001 European Championship 2nd

2002 World Championship 1st

2002 European Championship 1st

2003 European Championship 3rd

2004 Athens Olympics Gold

2004 World Championship 1st

2006 European Championship 3rd

2007 European Championship 1st

2008 European Championship 1st

2008 Beijin Olympics Silver

2010 World Championship 1st

A bit slack in 2005??

 

That's when the Aussies were unbeatable?

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Lucky they're not racing 49ers then, or it would be the Martinez vs. Nicholson show and daylight back to the others.

 

Getting back to Leg 4 - Hopefully this will be another very competitive leg like the previous one and we're going to see some high-quality racing.

 

There's not much local knowledge I can see being beneficial to Camper. You'd think the real minefields will be further north - but time will tell.

 

Telefonica, Camper & Groupama are where they are on the table because of organisation and preparation. They haven't had breakdowns and they're all quick boats. There's no question that Telefonica have sailed better - particularly in the last leg where they had flawless strategy. Groupama take high risk - high reward options and so far they haven't come off, but I'm sure it will work for them at one point. That's not a race-winning stratgey though.

 

There's a lot of talk in the forums about which boat is quicker, etc. The differences in the boats performance aren't that significant - in the race so far it has not been out-and-out speed that has determined any of the leg winners, it's been race management and routing. I get the impression sometimes that many of the people posting here must do fuck-all in the way of offshore racing. If you've done it you'll know that you can have the fastest yacht in the universe and still get worked over if you sail to the wrong corner of the ocean. When you get the morning scheds you can be five miles in front because you've been in favourable current, or five miles behind because boats have picked up a land-breeze up the shore. Sometimes you make decisions which don't seem like a major at the time, but end up being race-winning (or losing) moments. Telefonica have been on the right side of those decisions, not by accident or just by good luck, and they're seeing the rewards. Sometimes for Telefonica the differences and the timing have been really subtle and it's been all they needed.

 

I don't reckon any of Telefonica, Puma, Groupama or Camper would nominate boatspeed as the defining factor in the results to date (same can't be said for the other two).

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Iker & Xabi have spent most of their time in Spain between legs 3 & 4 training their 49er for the Olympics... I think they deserve what they have!

 

that's dedication....they should give up 49er as no-one will beat the aussies :D

 

Just a friendly reminder :D

 

Iker & Xabi:

2001 World Championship 2nd

2001 European Championship 2nd

2002 World Championship 1st

2002 European Championship 1st

2003 European Championship 3rd

2004 Athens Olympics Gold

2004 World Championship 1st

2006 European Championship 3rd

2007 European Championship 1st

2008 European Championship 1st

2008 Beijin Olympics Silver

2010 World Championship 1st

that score card might even make espo jealous.

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Interesting note at the bottom of the SI's:

 

7. WEATHER DOWNLOAD

For Leg 4 the download quota per Boat is 0.5 GB.

 

500MB over ~15 days (?) 500MB = 30ish MB per day. Plenty for us mortals but with a 24hr navstation, downloading large gribs, sat photos and so on I imagine that they need to keep an eye on the download cap.

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Interesting note at the bottom of the SI's:

 

7. WEATHER DOWNLOAD

For Leg 4 the download quota per Boat is 0.5 GB.

 

500MB over ~15 days (?) 500MB = 30ish MB per day. Plenty for us mortals but with a 24hr navstation, downloading large gribs, sat photos and so on I imagine that they need to keep an eye on the download cap.

 

Same quota for leg 3, so must be standard for each leg.

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Lucky they're not racing 49ers then, or it would be the Martinez vs. Nicholson show and daylight back to the others.

 

Getting back to Leg 4 - Hopefully this will be another very competitive leg like the previous one and we're going to see some high-quality racing.

 

There's not much local knowledge I can see being beneficial to Camper. You'd think the real minefields will be further north - but time will tell.

 

Telefonica, Camper & Groupama are where they are on the table because of organisation and preparation. They haven't had breakdowns and they're all quick boats. There's no question that Telefonica have sailed better - particularly in the last leg where they had flawless strategy. Groupama take high risk - high reward options and so far they haven't come off, but I'm sure it will work for them at one point. That's not a race-winning stratgey though.

 

There's a lot of talk in the forums about which boat is quicker, etc. The differences in the boats performance aren't that significant - in the race so far it has not been out-and-out speed that has determined any of the leg winners, it's been race management and routing. I get the impression sometimes that many of the people posting here must do fuck-all in the way of offshore racing. If you've done it you'll know that you can have the fastest yacht in the universe and still get worked over if you sail to the wrong corner of the ocean. When you get the morning scheds you can be five miles in front because you've been in favourable current, or five miles behind because boats have picked up a land-breeze up the shore. Sometimes you make decisions which don't seem like a major at the time, but end up being race-winning (or losing) moments. Telefonica have been on the right side of those decisions, not by accident or just by good luck, and they're seeing the rewards. Sometimes for Telefonica the differences and the timing have been really subtle and it's been all they needed.

 

I don't reckon any of Telefonica, Puma, Groupama or Camper would nominate boatspeed as the defining factor in the results to date (same can't be said for the other two).

 

Good breakdown dude.

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that score card might even make espo jealous.

 

nah...firstly it's OD and then it's 49ers....you actually have to know a bit to sail them. too hard basket for the blowhard

 

that said espo on a 49er would be bloody funny for the first couple of minutes

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Looks like fun for Saturday....

 

msw-surf-charts2.php.htm

 

boat breaking stuff....it's a pretty crappy piece of water when it's like that. reckon they'll be the best part of a couple of days getting around the top of Luzon. how many will make it?

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Looks like fun for Saturday....

 

msw-surf-charts2.php.htm

 

boat breaking stuff....it's a pretty crappy piece of water when it's like that. reckon they'll be the best part of a couple of days getting around the top of Luzon. how many will make it?

 

Could be a case of the leg win decided in the first 24-48 hrs by who actually survives.

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Looks like fun for Saturday....

 

msw-surf-charts2.php.htm

 

boat breaking stuff....it's a pretty crappy piece of water when it's like that. reckon they'll be the best part of a couple of days getting around the top of Luzon. how many will make it?

 

Could be a case of the leg win decided in the first 24-48 hrs by who actually survives.

 

am guessing it may be a big issue for as much as the first 4 days....there maybe a softer option down the east coast of Luzon??? but the need to get east is going to keep them in plenty of pressure for a while. frikkin rugged stuff at the start of a fairly long leg

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Telefonica decided to swap rigs.

 

Full article on VOR site:Clicky

 

“We want to be super safe," said the skipper. "We found something that we didn’t like much so we’ve decided to replace the rigging for the next leg, and we have a spare rig here that we’ve used already and we’re very confident with.

 

“We’re probably a little bit too sensitive with this but after two masts were broken during this race we’re going to take the mast down, change the rigging and put the mast up again.

 

Martínez explained that the rig had failed return to its typical tensions since the mast was stepped after a full service by the shore crew last week.

 

The Spanish Olympic gold medallist said the team were yet to pin down exactly what the problem was, but he hoped they would have more insight by tomorrow.

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yeah i twas a big surprise to come down to the marina and see the crane above Telefonica.

 

Better safe than sorry though ands they didn't miss all that much as the practice race didn't complete although until the wind shut down Sanya had dne a homey and was at one point a full leg clear of Camper befoe the tise gently carried them away from the finish line. there were more holes in the wind than a hobo's vest and Azzan, mar Mosto and Groupama all spent time parked.

 

Let's hop ethat's the windless day out of the way for the next few days.

 

Hopefull something nice for you guys on the front page before too long.

 

See ya on the water

 

Shanghai Sailor

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Looks like fun for Saturday....

 

msw-surf-charts2.php.htm

 

No doubt eh Somtam. Ferk me.

 

And we're trying to move Foxy6 from HKG to Subic on Monday *gulp* (thanks for the heads up Punter).

 

Hope that shit blows through HKG before Benny & Co. shove off or we're likely to be late for the start.

 

Gonna be survival mode right off the blocks for the VORs though.

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Basically Tele decided to change their mast after seeing what they are in for with the forecast biggrin.gif

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Martínez explained that the rig had failed return to its typical tensions since the mast was stepped after a full service by the shore crew last week.

 

Ok you clever chaps, what would cause that? Broken strands? stretched fitting? something flexing where it shouldnt, Faulty tension gauge?

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must have walked under a ladder indoors with an umbrella which had pictures of a black cat on a green boat eating a banana.

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post-26739-070132300 1329470520_thumb.jpg

Groupama is using old ericsson sails?? or just for pro ams?

I suspect just for pro ams. No point in wearing out race sails

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They used them for the round Britain race as well- they have a few miles on them!

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Sailed those waters in the Rolex 2010 South China Race from HK to Subic. Bit of a ENE blow on night 2 created massive squared waves -- no chance we could stay on the NW / SE rhumb line on our First 34.7. We joked that Bali wasn't too bad either - due South. The VOR guys will be tacking into the winds and waves for a few good days; with all brakes applied they'll still hit 10 knots probably? Will be like slamming into a wall time and time again -- and there's no escape, first need to go out over the top of Luzon. Not sure you can design / built for this.

 

Chance is that the skipper who starts and anchors in a sheltered spot for two or three days before taking it on, will be guaranteed a top 3 spot -- cause the other half of the fleet will sink.

 

Volvo should delay the start. No sense risking lives. What do you guys think?

 

EDIT -- I may have exagerated a bit, but not by much. We'll see.

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Saw a comment somewhere that the Pro-Am races are mandatory for all boats, any truth to this?

 

Odd that a practice race would be mandatory for anything other than the spectators, but would Tele face any repurcussions?

 

HW

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In port race looking pretty good . Halfway thru the race and Tele first per usual , puma close behind and camper is going to skuttle the boat instead of facing GD back on shore . WTF ?

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I would hate to see the first ever postponement to a VOR leg start. If you don't want the bashing, anchor.

 

Tele just looks special. Reminds me of Alinghi in AC32. They didn't look that much faster until they had to live in someone's bad air or recover from a fuckup - and in those instances, they just seemed to have something the other guys didn't, and it always got them the win. Tele just has something a little special, whether it is hull or foils or sails or just Iker and Xabi and Jordi and Capey firing on all cylinders...who knows.

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And Camper and the Goose look all wrong. Dalton has put those guys under such pressure it is ridiculous. A sad day for NZ yachting. Heads will roll in NZ

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A sad day for NZ yachting. Heads will roll in NZ

 

Seems a bit much for one race. Tele's had a couple of sinkers in the in ports as well. And NZ is doing pretty well all told. Even if Puma hadn't dropped their rig in leg 1 Camper would be doing well. Where's the disgrace?

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Firstly "if" is hindsight. Secondly if you live in NZ then you would have seen the press about Dalton and the "tactical errors" and Davis and Allen going to Sanya to rectify the "problems in communication and decision making". As for Goose 4 lenghts behind at the gun? Yeah the guy is a legend.......not

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And Camper and the Goose look all wrong. Dalton has put those guys under such pressure it is ridiculous. A sad day for NZ yachting. Heads will roll in NZ

 

Camper do seem to put a lot of public pressure on themselves compared to the other teams, whether or not it comes from Dalts or Nico, I don't know. Given they have had a relatively breakage free Volvo so far compared to Sanya/Puma/Abu Dhabi you would think they would look more relaxed than those teams who have had to play catch up. I enjoy watching Sanya/Puma/Abu Dhabi, after the set backs they have had they still seem to stay positive, have a bit of a laugh at they shit they have gone through and get on with the job. But to me Camper sound like a bunch of whining bitches. Maybe they need a massive night on the piss and start the next leg hungover, they need to loosen up a bit.

 

Do the crews get paid bonus payments based on performance?

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Volvo should delay the start. No sense risking lives. What do you guys think?

 

That it's supposed to be ocean racing and these are supposed to be the biggest toughest ocean racers out there. Start it on schedule and let each skipper make his call.

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Volvo should delay the start. No sense risking lives. What do you guys think?

 

That it's supposed to be ocean racing and these are supposed to be the biggest toughest ocean racers out there. Start it on schedule and let each skipper make his call.

 

Indeed- it blows harder in the Southern Ocean and the single-handed guys in Class 40s manage to come out the other side. There are no surprises in this weather at this time of year on that stretch of water.

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Volvo should delay the start. No sense risking lives. What do you guys think?

 

That it's supposed to be ocean racing and these are supposed to be the biggest toughest ocean racers out there. Start it on schedule and let each skipper make his call.

 

Indeed- it blows harder in the Southern Ocean and the single-handed guys in Class 40s manage to come out the other side. There are no surprises in this weather at this time of year on that stretch of water.

Not really relevant that it blows harder in the SOuthern Ocean, look back at the first leg. It is not the high winds that cause the problem but the sea state in shallower water.

 

Also worth pointing out that 2 of the Class 40s had to pull out of the current leg (both of them had Whitbread crews), and i believe they are far more seaworthy boats than the VO70s.

 

That being said I truly believe that they should start on time. I believe that this should always be the case and that when RORC delayed the start of the Fastnet a few years they set a dangerous precedent of the organisers becoming responsible for the safety decisions of the fleet. If all the skippers ask for a delay is one things, but the RC making the decision is wrong.

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^

 

Fastnet is a different proposition in that there are many sub-40 footers and crews and skippers who are recreational sailors. I think that RORC did the right thing there (although conditions at the postponed start weren't exactly friendly either).

 

Not really relevant that it blows harder in the SOuthern Ocean

 

Agree with that.....also last time the boats pretty much sailed around areas of strongest wind and, of course, it's basically downwind. The boats are now fast enough and weather information good enough for them to be able to do that. It's where the course forces them to be somewhere and upwind that's the issue.

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Between the split legs, the stealth zones, the drifing conditions of some legs and now a start postponment I imagine that interest will drop pretty quick.

This time it seems more like a dog and pony show for the sponsors with the actual ocean racing being secondary.

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Between the split legs, the stealth zones, the drifing conditions of some legs and now a start postponment I imagine that interest will drop pretty quick.

This time it seems more like a dog and pony show for the sponsors with the actual ocean racing being secondary.

 

 

How much interest you think there would be to a non existing race? I cannot see any interest in Kenwood cup or Admiral cup nowdays. And if its not a race anymore, why do you still folow it? I am certanly more interested now, than I was when Merit got to finish 4 days ahead of everyone else.

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VOLVO OCEAN RACE DEPARTURE FROM SANYA DELAYED

 

The VOR Leg from Sanya to Auckland will start on time at 1400 local time. However, the fleet will sail the planned course off the marina then across Sanya Bay to a huge Buddah to the West and back to a timed finish off the marina.

 

Some 12-15 hours later the race will restart with the boats starting in individual timed starts and then on to Auckland.

 

Now I know some of you will throw your hands up in horror, quote “Rule 4” and all the rest of it but all I would say to you is you have obviously never lost a friend to the sea – I have!

 

I am sure all would agree only an idiot would go out sailing into a sea area where there is a tropical depression lurking and it is not a big step to state that only an idiot would knowingly send a bunch of sailors out into one.

 

Thankfully the Volvo Ocean Race team are not idiots and the decision above has not been made, I am sure, lightly.

 

Add to the weather that is actually out there – it is not a prediction – the fact that the Luzon Strait produces the sort of shallow water, rough weather wave pattern that in some way or form almost did for the whole fleet last time round, only a fool, whether sailor, organizer, sponsor or supporter would knowingly send people – not just boats remember – into such conditions.

 

Now, it could be that you are not a proper sailor or have never experienced conditions that have you reaching to text “I love you” to your nearest and dearest or simply have an unhealthy desire to see others get hurt.

 

If you don’t fit into any of the above categories you, with a little bit of thought, should see that – although we would all love to see them blasting straight off to the Land of the long White Cloud – the only possible sensible decision has been made.

 

See ya on the water

 

Shanghai Sailor

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^

 

I think you are correct and fwiw I withdraw my earlier remarks regarding the start schedule.

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The 2010 Vineyard Race was postponed because a full blown hurricane tracked just south of the racecourse and left severe, boat-braking, conditions in LIS and the shallow part of the North Atlantic in it's wake. I did not question the race committee one iota back then and I don't question the VOR RC at all now either. Yes they are professionals and yes it is the skippers decision to race but none of these guys want to head out and break something major (or someone) their first night out and be out for the next 2 legs. The potential gains just don't outweigh the risks. Remember it was the Luzon Strait which took out E4, Delta Lloyd, Green Dragon and Telefonica Black during the last race.

 

No, this isn't pussification. It's just good plain sense.

 

 

 

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SS I can say that I have unfortunately had all the experiences you quote. That is precisely why I believe it should remain the skippers decision, I believe that is safer for the sport in the long term.

I am not saying they should set off, looking at the forecast I think the correct decsion has been made. I just think it should not be a decision made by the race committee but by the skippers. I am not jumping up and down about it because there are more factors that need to be taken into account (eg keeping the fleet sailing), but that is kind of my point; in such an instance the skippers seamanship decisions should be the only things that count.

 

I guess from a commercial aspect they need to mitigate the risk of losing half the fleet so early in a leg. The race committee making the decision would, I suppose, take the pressure off the skippers having to explain to sponsors.

Like I said, I think the correct decision has been made, it is just my personal belief that in the long run these decsions being laid at the feet of the Race Committee will lead to a COmmittee being held responsible when something horrible happens. You know there will always be someone out there that will look to lay blame at someone elses feet.

 

Hopefully the race will get back underway soon, and we can have more great racing to follow. Despite the lack of fluidity caused by leg 1 and 2 I am actually really enjoying this race. Loving the fact that Iker and Xavi (who very kindly helped my Mum when she was mugged in Barcelona) are sailing a phenomenal race.

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I still have to say I disagree with an official postponement. What I would like to see is the race committee go out there, set a startline and no boats cross it, or the fleet crosses it and immediately goes off and anchor or stop somewhere. As they are perfectly allowed to under the rules for no penalty. Then each skipper/crew decide when they think it is safe to leave. People seem to be under the misapprehension that running a start = forcing the boats to go out into those conditions.

 

Under this system crews and skippers can make their own decisions and assess the risk Vs reward of setting off 1, 2 or 6hrs ahead of their opposition. It adds an exciting element into the race and should not put anyone in danger assuming that the guys on these boats are competent seamen, which I dont think anyone could disagree with.

 

This is the way the rules are written and this should be the way its done. Skippers take responsibility no one else. Ive seen club racing starts at home where not a single boat showed up, the committee still did the start then buggered off to the bar. This is no different just because this is pro event, no one forces them to start.

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Having competed in round the world races and seen people die I strongly disagree. Rules are in place for this situation and decisions like this only confuse the public we are trying to reach even more. Turn it around and lets say they start in ideal conditions and then 48 hours they are in 60-70 knots, what then the abandonment flag?

 

 

So much for all the hype and bullshit of "Volvo, life at the extreme". Yet another nail in the coffin........................

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Between the split legs, the stealth zones, the drifing conditions of some legs and now a start postponment I imagine that interest will drop pretty quick.

This time it seems more like a dog and pony show for the sponsors with the actual ocean racing being secondary.

 

Yes, wow, back in your day, Brutus. Real blood spraying up past the fifth seat row in the circus!

 

Get over it.

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Why is it old fashioned to trust in the good sense and seamanship of professional skippers?

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Why is it old fashioned to trust in the good sense and seamanship of professional skippers?

 

 

I think the question is if we wanna watch a demolition derby or a high tech yacht race. you would not send F1 on ice either, telling the drivers "man up my mother can drive on snow"

 

You probably would not watch Wimbledon finales when it rains and balls are bouncing everywhere, nor Tour de France on snow.

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Quagers: It's not old fashioned, but luckily dispensible as this race director has the good sense your club race committee seems to lack.

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What about a show of seamanship? Start then anchor, or go to storm jib and trysail? What happens if it blows 70 when they are 48 hours from Sanya??

 

 

 

 

 

Why is it old fashioned to trust in the good sense and seamanship of professional skippers?

 

 

I think the question is if we wanna watch a demolition derby or a high tech yacht race. you would not send F1 on ice either, telling the drivers "man up my mother can drive on snow"

 

You probably would not watch Wimbledon finales when it rains and balls are bouncing everywhere, nor Tour de France on snow.

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What about a show of seamanship? Start then anchor, or go to storm jib and trysail? What happens if it blows 70 when they are 48 hours from Sanya??

 

 

 

 

 

Why is it old fashioned to trust in the good sense and seamanship of professional skippers?

 

 

I think the question is if we wanna watch a demolition derby or a high tech yacht race. you would not send F1 on ice either, telling the drivers "man up my mother can drive on snow"

 

You probably would not watch Wimbledon finales when it rains and balls are bouncing everywhere, nor Tour de France on snow.

 

No thanks...wanna watch high tech boats capable of beating 24 hour record. Competing on an even field.

 

BT challenge is probably what you are after.

 

Maybe they could have some other disciplines then, not just best anchoring. Dig out captains Hook tresure could be one of them.

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Why is it old fashioned to trust in the good sense and seamanship of professional skippers?

 

Okay Quagers. Lets send you out for 48-72 hours of beating upwind in bad chop and huge breeze in a volvo 70. If you can do it without breaking something or someone then you're allowed to say things like that.

 

Until then I would keep quiet.

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Why is it old fashioned to trust in the good sense and seamanship of professional skippers?
I think the question is if we wanna watch a demolition derby or a high tech yacht race. you would not send F1 on ice either, telling the drivers "man up my mother can drive on snow"You probably would not watch Wimbledon finales when it rains and balls are bouncing everywhere, nor Tour de France on snow.

 

 

Quagers: It's not old fashioned, but luckily dispensible as this race director has the good sense your club race committee seems to lack.

 

Can you please stop equating not wanting an official postponement and wanting them to sail into this. If you actually read anything I posted you will have seen that I think it would be stupid for ANY SKIPPER TO DECIDE to sail into the forecast weather. But it is still their choice not the race office.

 

People have raised very good points, had this weather suddenly appeared mid leg what would they do, call the coast guard? No they would throw up storm sails, anchor in the lee of an island, find a safe haven or whatever then continue racing when it passed. This shouldn't be any different. Where has this idea come from that just because this is a professional race they are incapable of stepping back from the edge, pushing less hard for their own safety?

 

F1 has become the same, safety cars are coming out way too early in wet conditions, to the point where people are changing to intermediate tyres before the race even restarts. Let the drivers(skippers) manage the risk, its what they are paid and trained to do.

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Why is it old fashioned to trust in the good sense and seamanship of professional skippers?
Okay Quagers. Lets send you out for 48-72 hours of beating upwind in bad chop and huge breeze in a volvo 70. If you can do it without breaking something or someone then you're allowed to say things like that.Until then I would keep quiet.

 

Love to, as long as I got to do the rest of the race. See above post for an actual reply.

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Why is it old fashioned to trust in the good sense and seamanship of professional skippers?
I think the question is if we wanna watch a demolition derby or a high tech yacht race. you would not send F1 on ice either, telling the drivers "man up my mother can drive on snow"You probably would not watch Wimbledon finales when it rains and balls are bouncing everywhere, nor Tour de France on snow.

 

 

Quagers: It's not old fashioned, but luckily dispensible as this race director has the good sense your club race committee seems to lack.

 

Can you please stop equating not wanting an official postponement and wanting them to sail into this. If you actually read anything I posted you will have seen that I think it would be stupid for ANY SKIPPER TO DECIDE to sail into the forecast weather. But it is still their choice not the race office.

 

People have raised very good points, had this weather suddenly appeared mid leg what would they do, call the coast guard? No they would throw up storm sails, anchor in the lee of an island, find a safe haven or whatever then continue racing when it passed. This shouldn't be any different. Where has this idea come from that just because this is a professional race they are incapable of stepping back from the edge, pushing less hard for their own safety?

 

F1 has become the same, safety cars are coming out way too early in wet conditions, to the point where people are changing to intermediate tyres before the race even restarts. Let the drivers(skippers) manage the risk, its what they are paid and trained to do.

 

Someone has to organise it. Its their job to create even field. I am sure they asked all skippers what they want, after all there is only six of them.

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The weather creates an even field (haha if only), its the skippers choice when to leave just as its their choice which side of a weather system to go.

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An even field? How do you draw that opinion? The reality is that two teams lobbied VERY hard for the postponement and the organisers folded. Not sure who but my guess is TELE and PUMA. I know Camper wanted to go.......................................I wonder what would happen if a team decided not to sail today because they felt it was unsafe? No points on offer.........

 

 

 

 

 

Why is it old fashioned to trust in the good sense and seamanship of professional skippers?
I think the question is if we wanna watch a demolition derby or a high tech yacht race. you would not send F1 on ice either, telling the drivers "man up my mother can drive on snow"You probably would not watch Wimbledon finales when it rains and balls are bouncing everywhere, nor Tour de France on snow.

 

 

Quagers: It's not old fashioned, but luckily dispensible as this race director has the good sense your club race committee seems to lack.

 

Can you please stop equating not wanting an official postponement and wanting them to sail into this. If you actually read anything I posted you will have seen that I think it would be stupid for ANY SKIPPER TO DECIDE to sail into the forecast weather. But it is still their choice not the race office.

 

People have raised very good points, had this weather suddenly appeared mid leg what would they do, call the coast guard? No they would throw up storm sails, anchor in the lee of an island, find a safe haven or whatever then continue racing when it passed. This shouldn't be any different. Where has this idea come from that just because this is a professional race they are incapable of stepping back from the edge, pushing less hard for their own safety?

 

F1 has become the same, safety cars are coming out way too early in wet conditions, to the point where people are changing to intermediate tyres before the race even restarts. Let the drivers(skippers) manage the risk, its what they are paid and trained to do.

 

Someone has to organise it. Its their job to create even field. I am sure they asked all skippers what they want, after all there is only six of them.

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An even field? How do you draw that opinion? The reality is that two teams lobbied VERY hard for the postponement and the organisers folded. Not sure who but my guess is TELE and PUMA. I know Camper wanted to go.......................................I wonder what would happen if a team decided not to sail today because they felt it was unsafe? No points on offer.........

 

 

 

 

Buddy, "the reality is" you don't have a clue!!!! In fact Iker was one of those who who phlegmatic about conditions.

 

For someone who seems to have done everything and knows everybody you actually appear to know very little.

 

Your comment "I wonder what would happen if a team decided not to sail today because they felt it was unsafe? No points on offer........." shows you just didn't read or listen before commenting. Of course there are points on offer.

 

If a team didn't sail today they would have not sailed the course as published and would score a DSQ UNLESS 'tomorrow' they sailed first the short course outside the harbour then across the bay to the buddah and back through the finish line.

 

They would then be re-started that elepsed time (from 1400 start time today until they finished tomorrow) after the official re-start time likely to be some time tomorrow (Monday) morning.

 

Just remember guys, no ROI = no sponsors, no sponsors = no race, no race = nothing for us to talk about :-)

 

See ya on the water

 

Shanghai Sailor

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And just for your information

 

 

he fleet will then wait until conditions are deemed safe enough for them to sail. The delay will not be for more than 24 hours.

 

The re-start will be staggered, with the boats leaving in the order they finish Stage 1. No points will be awarded for Leg 4 Stage 1.

 

 

On the Volvo website. Think before you write. And when did you become an expert on sailing around the world?

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I understand the decision, based on the boat breakages so far in the race, and sure if I had my choice I would not go out tomorrow. But this is an 'adventure extreme race'. I would have thought the audience (and thus sponsors) would be interested in the boats sailing in medium strong stuff. So I am curious - what I see in the forecast is a simple gale (not even a strong gale much less a storm and certainly not a hurricane). Has this race really come to the point where they will not start with a simple gale forecast - or do they believe there is more wind out there than is in the forecast? Yes, I know this piece of ocean has nasty waves (looking like 3-6m), but the boat designers all knew the route and I would have thought the boats and sailors should have been able to handle a gale. Was there some sort of understanding at the beginning about max wind ranges for starts?

 

1004HPA AT 9.8N 112.4E MOVING WLY 5KM/H

AND MAX WINDS 15M/S NEAR CENTER (SEAS UP TO 5.0M)

AND FORECAST FOR 191800UTC AT 9.5N 110.8E 1004HPA

MAX WINDS 15M/S NEAR CENTER

 

PRATAS= NE 6-7, OCNL 8. RAIN PATCHES. SEA 3-6 M. SWELL NE 3 M

BALINTANG= NE 7-8. DOWN TO 4000 M IN MIST OR RAIN PATCHES. SEA 4-6 M. SWELL NE 3 M

 

post-8534-018714700 1329617970_thumb.jpg

 

.

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It's difficult to exaggerate the wave state there in anything over 30kts....it's simply awful. You can't drive to it....you are going to get slammed every few seconds no matter what you do.

 

Doesn't have to be a large swell either....i could easily imagine that sea state maybe a bigger factor than the strength of the breeze in this particular location??

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Lads - this is about sponsors and that's it. Ask any of the skippers what their priorities are and its safety, then the sponsors. W/O the sponsors, the race does not happen (why else would they go to Abu Dubai). Knut knows this, and knows that if he loses boats, sponsors are not happy. It all comes back to money. Take your rules and spirit of racing bitching to the etchells forum. The VOR is a product meant to drive consumption for the sponsor's product. Wake up.

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Lads - this is about sponsors and that's it. Ask any of the skippers what their priorities are and its safety, then the sponsors. W/O the sponsors, the race does not happen (why else would they go to Abu Dubai). Knut knows this, and knows that if he loses boats, sponsors are not happy. It all comes back to money. Take your rules and spirit of racing bitching to the etchells forum. The VOR is a product meant to drive consumption for the sponsor's product. Wake up.

 

We all (mostly) get that. But there is some sponsor driven logic to running the race in difficult/exciting conditions - #1 the audience would be more excited and involved and paying closer attention if they went out in difficult conditions, so #2 the sponsors would get both more media exposure and audience involvement, so #3 Knut should have clearly told the teams he would run the race in difficult/exciting conditions and the had better design the boats to hold together.

 

Given the boats don't seem to have been designed so strong, I understand the decision to protect the fleet, but that does just leads to a design 'race to the bottom' (lighter and lighter boats designed for lighter and lighter conditions), which in the end is not good for the sponsors because you lose the adventure aspect of the race..

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And what gets column inches and TV time? Sadly not the current situation. Why do people go to watch motor racing? The slogan for this race is "Life at the Exctreme". It would be far more interesting and insighful into the pyche and determination of each team/crew to make there own decisions on starting/anchoring or waiting.

 

 

 

Lads - this is about sponsors and that's it. Ask any of the skippers what their priorities are and its safety, then the sponsors. W/O the sponsors, the race does not happen (why else would they go to Abu Dubai). Knut knows this, and knows that if he loses boats, sponsors are not happy. It all comes back to money. Take your rules and spirit of racing bitching to the etchells forum. The VOR is a product meant to drive consumption for the sponsor's product. Wake up.

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Given the boats don't seem to have been designed so strong, I understand the decision to protect the fleet, but that does just leads to a design 'race to the bottom' (lighter and lighter boats designed for lighter and lighter conditions), which in the end is not good for the sponsors because you lose the adventure aspect of the race..

 

That would be my concern - and from the breakages on leg 1 we already seem to be seeing designers follow that logic. But on balance here, I'm listening to the people who knows these waters and are telling us it's no place to be in the next 24 hours.

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Ni hao Truth mate but just how would you propose keeping spectactors interested again? By having five or six ducks in a row of anchor in front of an effing Buddha? That's even worse for conveying a "life to the extreme" message don't you think? Yes I hear your point -- shouldn't be the race committee calling the shots, but the skippers. Perhaps I agree. But let's assume that the earlier comment was correct and Camper wanted to go (obviously I don't have a clue on whether that's correct) and let's assume that at least some of the others didn't -- then why should the committee chose to start and leave it up to the skippers? THEIR Interest is of importance too -- an interesting race (and let's not count sinking boats as something of interest), with as many of the already small number of participants engaged at maximum. Chasing daredevils isn't part of that routine. Too bad for the daredevils that would like to go out -- but there's a larger interest here that wins over theirs, I'd say.

 

 

 

 

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Not designed so strong? What are you talking about?

 

Ignoring Sanya, which is a boat from the last go round, none of the boats has had any structural issues whatsoever. The only problems have been limited to Future Fibres and some low cost rigging components. Adding Sanya to the mix, the only thing that changes is running into some debris in the Med.

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Ive seen club racing starts at home where not a single boat showed up, the committee still did the start then buggered off to the bar.

 

Have you? Recently? I see you are UK based. Well so I am, with some exposure to the risk management processes that some major UK clubs have put in place in the last decade. If I run a club race, I need to fill in a form certifying that I've checked the forecast, the adequacy of safety cover etc. Happily afaik the extent to which RRS4 would protect a club and its race officer from a negligence suit or in the worst case a charge or corporate manslaughter hasn't been tested. Most clubs would rather keep it that way.

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The only problems have been limited to Future Fibres and some low cost rigging components.

 

Oh well that's all right then.

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No one wants to see anyone get hurt. I have alot of friends sailing in this race. My point is, and you now seem to agree is that it is the skippers decision. They are all married with children so they all have a great deal to lose. My other argument is that what does the committe do when 3 days in it starts blowing 60-70 knots with 12m seas, pull the pin? There has to be consistency in decision making and on that basis there can't be. The skippers and crews are all grown, highly accomplished yachtsman who have all sailed through much worse.

 

 

 

Ni hao Truth mate but just how would you propose keeping spectactors interested again? By having five or six ducks in a row of anchor in front of an effing Buddha? That's even worse for conveying a "life to the extreme" message don't you think? Yes I hear your point -- shouldn't be the race committee calling the shots, but the skippers. Perhaps I agree. But let's assume that the earlier comment was correct and Camper wanted to go (obviously I don't have a clue on whether that's correct) and let's assume that at least some of the others didn't -- then why should the committee chose to start and leave it up to the skippers? THEIR Interest is of importance too -- an interesting race (and let's not count sinking boats as something of interest), with as many of the already small number of participants engaged at maximum. Chasing daredevils isn't part of that routine. Too bad for the daredevils that would like to go out -- but there's a larger interest here that wins over theirs, I'd say.

 

 

 

 

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doggie,

 

It's not that it's "all right", it's that all those failures really haven't been the result of high loads. Puma's rig fell over in relatively flat stuff. No one has said the failures are acceptable, but no one has suggested that they happened because of excessive loads, either.

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No one wants to see anyone get hurt. I have alot of friends sailing in this race. My point is, and you now seem to agree is that it is the skippers decision. They are all married with children so they all have a great deal to lose. My other argument is that what does the committe do when 3 days in it starts blowing 60-70 knots with 12m seas, pull the pin? There has to be consistency in decision making and on that basis there can't be. The skippers and crews are all grown, highly accomplished yachtsman who have all sailed through much worse.

 

Graham...Graeme...however it's spelled...i actually agree with much you are saying. However the chances of 60 to 70kts and 12 mtre seas won't be an issue until they are approaching Auckland and then perhaps on the following leg when going downhill. That's not what is going to happen in the China Sea.

 

They would have a large routing window in which to accomodate that possibility on approach to NZ....if a boat was caught the wrong side of an EAC bomb there would be a good reason to question navigation sanity. The window they have to run this and the angles they must sail to complete the course to the North of Luzon are far more limiting. It would be a boat busting snotting of the highest order. Tomorrow not so much.

 

Have to agree with you there should be seamanship shown in a prudent decision as to whether to race and what that would show the audience....have to also agree with others that they don't need to kill the golden goose so they won't risk it. Just saying that imho there's a very limiting situation in play right now.

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Puma's rig fell over in relatively flat stuff. No one has said the failures are acceptable, but no one has suggested that they happened because of excessive loads, either.

 

I thought that was exactly the suggestion as far as Sanya's rig failure on leg 2 was concerned and that Andrew Cape believed Sanya had been foolish to put themselves into that piece of weather.

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A fucking milestone.......you actually can agree with something I say. As far as the audience?? Have a look at the viewers watching the feed as we speak...3,500 and alledgedly 12,000 elsewhere. So with AUS, NZ, ASIA in perfect time zones (and not bad in Europe) why can't we even get sailors watching? 3,500 is about 4 decent sized yacht clubs..............

 

 

 

No one wants to see anyone get hurt. I have alot of friends sailing in this race. My point is, and you now seem to agree is that it is the skippers decision. They are all married with children so they all have a great deal to lose. My other argument is that what does the committe do when 3 days in it starts blowing 60-70 knots with 12m seas, pull the pin? There has to be consistency in decision making and on that basis there can't be. The skippers and crews are all grown, highly accomplished yachtsman who have all sailed through much worse.

 

Graham...Graeme...however it's spelled...i actually agree with much you are saying. However the chances of 60 to 70kts and 12 mtre seas won't be an issue until they are approaching Auckland and then perhaps on the following leg when going downhill. That's not what is going to happen in the China Sea.

 

They would have a large routing window in which to accomodate that possibility on approach to NZ....if a boat was caught the wrong side of an EAC bomb there would be a good reason to question navigation sanity. The window they have to run this and the angles they must sail to complete the course to the North of Luzon are far more limiting. It would be a boat busting snotting of the highest order. Tomorrow not so much.

 

Have to agree with you there should be seamanship shown in a prudent decision as to whether to race and what that would show the audience....have to also agree with others that they don't need to kill the golden goose so they won't risk it. Just saying that imho there's a very limiting situation in play right now.

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And just for your information

 

 

he fleet will then wait until conditions are deemed safe enough for them to sail. The delay will not be for more than 24 hours.

 

The re-start will be staggered, with the boats leaving in the order they finish Stage 1. No points will be awarded for Leg 4 Stage 1.

 

 

On the Volvo website. Think before you write. And when did you become an expert on sailing around the world?

 

I do think before i write, the time difference from the short race - that is still in progress with Telefonica leading - will determine the start times at some point inthe next few hours.

 

Ipso facto, their perfomance WILL Count towards the leg points with the early finishers being the early starters for leg 4 part 2.

 

So there will be no ADDITIONAL points for this small part of the leg but it most certainly DOES count towards the point of leg 4

 

Sheesh, some people are so thick!!

 

Anyway got ago see them finish and say hi to Iker, Frank, Ken, Ian, Nico & Moose

 

See ya on the water

 

SS

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Lads - this is about sponsors and that's it. Ask any of the skippers what their priorities are and its safety, then the sponsors. W/O the sponsors, the race does not happen (why else would they go to Abu Dubai). Knut knows this, and knows that if he loses boats, sponsors are not happy. It all comes back to money. Take your rules and spirit of racing bitching to the etchells forum. The VOR is a product meant to drive consumption for the sponsor's product. Wake up.

 

Man, you are so right. I don't see any these naysayers putting their hands in their pockets to fund the race or giving up their time to help run a stopover or drive RIBs to get the shots out.

 

If a private individual doesn't buy a boat at least 50% of the world's sailors wouldn't get wet and if sponsors don't anti-up because they see a decent ROI there would be no VOR, No America's Cup, no Vendee Globe, No eXtreme 40's - you get my drift?

 

Wake up guys

 

SS

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Tele wins P1 of L4. In the interview to Iker he said he was very sorry for Puma, they had terrible luck, wind shift killed them. Tele escaped by meters when they realized the situation of the following boats.

 

Anyway little impact to L4 overall, except the psicollogical effect...

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It's a cruel sport bad luck to Puma who sailed a flawless first half.

 

Really feel sorry for Kenny and the guys. They sailed a good race round the cans and blew everyone away when they left the in-port part of the course. They were shifting and to fall into the transition hole quite as badly as that was cruel luck

 

Their boat speed thes past couple of days has been a revelation thouigh and they will be back, sure of it

 

See ya on the water

 

Shanghai Sailor

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And what gets column inches and TV time? Sadly not the current situation. Why do people go to watch motor racing? The slogan for this race is "Life at the Exctreme". It would be far more interesting and insighful into the pyche and determination of each team/crew to make there own decisions on starting/anchoring or waiting.

 

 

 

Lads - this is about sponsors and that's it. Ask any of the skippers what their priorities are and its safety, then the sponsors. W/O the sponsors, the race does not happen (why else would they go to Abu Dubai). Knut knows this, and knows that if he loses boats, sponsors are not happy. It all comes back to money. Take your rules and spirit of racing bitching to the etchells forum. The VOR is a product meant to drive consumption for the sponsor's product. Wake up.

 

Motor racing involves dozens of cars, so losing 3-4/race does not keep it from still being a race. Lost 3-4 here, and its no longer a product. VOR is not even close to being as developed as motor racing, probably never will be, so you can't compare the two.

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Puma's rig fell over in relatively flat stuff. No one has said the failures are acceptable, but no one has suggested that they happened because of excessive loads, either.

 

I thought that was exactly the suggestion as far as Sanya's rig failure on leg 2 was concerned and that Andrew Cape believed Sanya had been foolish to put themselves into that piece of weather.

 

If it was load related, it would have been the windward, not leeward, side. With the predictable outcome. Andrew cape has made no mistakes, but that statement and a parted element are unrelated. So maybe if he had connected the two, he made one.

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I watched the start up until 2:30 EST and PUMA were leading by a mile so I figured "what the hell, I need my sleep" and logged off.

 

Come back this morning to find they blew it all... wow.

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For a website with a "NEWS" tab, Volvo sure don't make it easy to find the main point of the story. Do better, Rick. Don't bury the lead.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This was buried at the bottom of one of many stories about the leg 4 start:

 

 

 

 

 

"The teams will restart racing from Sanya at the following times:

 

Team Telefónica: 2300 UTC, Sunday February 19

 

Groupama sailing team: 23:02:34

 

Abu Dhabi Ocean Racing: 23:03:36

 

Team Sanya: 23:07:32

 

CAMPER with Emirates Team New Zealand: 23:09:13

 

PUMA Ocean Racing powered by BERG: 23:39:17"

 

 

 

 

So I guess I can infer that the first 5 boats finished within 10 minutes of each other. Puma almost 40 back. Owch.

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Gov Christy of NJ commended Puma on their tribute to Whitney Houston...."In true Whitney style they started out with great promise, had a great first 2/3rds and then, to the surprise of many, ended up floating dead in the water"

 

no comment has been made as to who will step up to pay Kenny's Parking ticket....Sanya animal control was called to investigate reports of a dead cat floating in the bay.....

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Not designed so strong? What are you talking about?

 

The only problems have been limited to Future Fibres and some low cost rigging components. Adding Sanya to the mix, the only thing that changes is running into some debris in the Med.

 

You will remember that the French also had a major hull crack that they fixed on the transport ship.

 

So, 4 (S, P, G, A) out of 6 boats have had significant (public) problems in only 3 legs.

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race cars break, race bikes break....why is it so surprising to some that a race boat breaks over the course of tens of thousands of miles of open ocean racing?

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race cars break, race bikes break....why is it so surprising to some that a race boat breaks over the course of tens of thousands of miles of open ocean racing?

 

Or three within the first few days of racing on the first leg. One of which was in the first few hours.

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Not designed so strong? What are you talking about?

 

The only problems have been limited to Future Fibres and some low cost rigging components. Adding Sanya to the mix, the only thing that changes is running into some debris in the Med.

 

You will remember that the French also had a major hull crack that they fixed on the transport ship.

 

So, 4 (S, P, G, A) out of 6 boats have had significant (public) problems in only 3 legs.

 

Major hull crack due to their batteries not being held properly and bouncing on the hull, apparently due to some modifications from original design, so nothing to worry about here...

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