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    • UnderDawg

      A Few Simple Rules   05/22/2017

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punter

VOR Leg 4

1,281 posts in this topic

How do VO70s do 14knots upwind in big seas? Unbelievable...

 

Not quite hard to the wind (more believable) and easier to keep the boat moving.

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Did you click "Live" on the tracker? Looks like they've lost a bit since then to me.

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Puma lead on Tele more like 6 miles I believe.

 

Click the 'LIVE' button up the top left of the tracker page.

I think Puma lost ~5nm since the last crossing

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My guess is that P is about three miles ahead of T. So, probably a pretty big loss on the split. From a warm, stable, quiet, well rested place it's hard to see why they didn't cover and keep the left in a persistent left shift.

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I think the loss per boat has more to do with the board they are on. Each boat seems to have lost while on the starboard tack compared to the competition on the other tack at the same time. I am guessing the waves while heading NE really suck.

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My guess is that P is about three miles ahead of T. So, probably a pretty big loss on the split. From a warm, stable, quiet, well rested place it's hard to see why they didn't cover and keep the left in a persistent left shift.

 

My guess is that they were looking for G4's wind which would have been advantageous on their next (current) tack.

Didn't happen.

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My guess is that P is about three miles ahead of T. So, probably a pretty big loss on the split. From a warm, stable, quiet, well rested place it's hard to see why they didn't cover and keep the left in a persistent left shift.

 

My guess is that they were looking for G4's wind which would have been advantageous on their next (current) tack.

Didn't happen.

 

Yet more Puma 'bad luck' right?

 

I like where Camper is.

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I think the loss per boat has more to do with the board they are on. Each boat seems to have lost while on the starboard tack compared to the competition on the other tack at the same time. I am guessing the waves while heading NE really suck.

 

Its just their VMG is better on PT tack than on Stb, meaning their destination is not directly into the wind.

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^^^It does look line a long port tack, but I think they've lost ground with respect to the wind. But just now there was a right shift so they got some back...

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Did you click "Live" on the tracker? Looks like they've lost a bit since then to me.

 

agreed, looks like about 4.5nm now. We will know in a short while as they cross.

post-8534-000148900 1331262596_thumb.jpg

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Sure is fun watching and calling shots sitting a home with a "Full Sail" Amber (Beer) in my hands. I'm nearly godlike from this position.:)

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They must see each other... But will T tack when P tacks?

 

 

Live tracker showing P approx 5.5mi's ahead, right on T's bow now.

 

would like to see P get a bit of east gage & tack. Port is certainly favored board to the tip now.

Old addage, tight cover on favored board to the mark, loose cover out to the layline.

 

Those boys are earning their pay out there now, brutal conditions! 5.5 to 6 m swell on the nose!!

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Should they take the inside lane on Tele to keep some sort of loose cover on Camper? I keep thinking, TACK!, TACK now!

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Gotta love it! Seems to me that P went from 3 and a bit to 4 with the shift so a mileish which they consolidate now. But if they're going to have a talking duel all the way to AKL I'll need to get in a bigger supply of beer.

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How do VO70s do 14knots upwind in big seas? Unbelievable...

 

Not quite hard to the wind (more believable) and easier to keep the boat moving.

 

They are pretty hard on the wind. They tack through about 93 degrees with boat speed close to windspeed. The apparent wind is further forward than any boat I've ever sailed on. It is hard to see how sailing with an apparent wind 25 degrees off the bow is not hard on the wind.

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Finally a covering tack.

 

Edit: They're not laying the north island but it's a good step.

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Tacked... Now, my second guess would have been to hold until T crossed their wake... Hmmm... Now does Tele answer?

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How bloody good is this.

 

 

 

It is Friday afternoon. The work week is over. It is beer time. and there is a great race for the 2nd place between 3 boats - the leader, the local and the underdog.

 

There will be absolutely no lack of motivation on Camper to squeeze every last bit out of their boat down the coast.

 

 

Good on you Groupama - but go Camper

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If so I'm not sure what P could do about it. They're in a pretty strong position now. If T sails right on by that would be soul destroying. But lots more racing to Auckland.

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How bloody good is this.

 

 

 

It is Friday afternoon. The work week is over. It is beer time. and there is a great race for the 2nd place between 3 boats - the leader, the local and the underdog.

 

There will be absolutely no lack of motivation on Camper to squeeze every last bit out of their boat down the coast.

 

 

Good on you Groupama - but go Camper

 

Don't you mean undercat?

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Any local knowledge on the board?

Is there any reason not to go south of the Three Kings islands?

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that's pretty crazy after so many fucking miles.

Screen shot 2012-03-08 at 10.44.42 PM.png

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Any local knowledge on the board?

Is there any reason not to go south of the Three Kings islands?

 

 

depends on where the current is at - pretty decent current. The tide was just low (an hour ago) and is rising - I forget, which way does that make the current run there? Full moon!

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Any local knowledge on the board?

Is there any reason not to go south of the Three Kings islands?

 

Wouldn't want to go too far south of the TK as the water to north of CReg is pretty heavy and confused most of the time.

Would love to see them shoot the gap.

 

Fark! Teles tacked.

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It is interesting to note that Puma have recorded the highest 24 hour run in two legs (this being the second)

 

In leg 2 they were only 15nm off and leg 1 it was a substantial chunk so they do have the ability to go very fast.

 

Another interesting thing is that Camper has the lowest run out of the highest 24 hour distance. Even Sanya covered more miles in their fastest 24 hour run.

 

http://www.volvoocea...4hsrun/rdc.html

 

But Camper have the highest overall 24 hour run, therefore also have the ability to go very fast.

What's your point?

 

point was that Puma have recorded the highest 24 hour run in two legs so they are clearly fast, and cover alot of miles, but it may be boat placement that is hurting them?

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Well, their current speed is reading at 7.7kts - make that 4.5kts as I check again - so unless they're tacking RIGHT NOW, boat placement seems to be an issue.

 

edit: ok, it's back up now, but that was enough to make a Puma fan shudder.

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Making for for an interesting final stretch on this leg....and how it'll play out is anybody's guess.

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It is interesting to note that Puma have recorded the highest 24 hour run in two legs (this being the second)

 

In leg 2 they were only 15nm off and leg 1 it was a substantial chunk so they do have the ability to go very fast.

 

Another interesting thing is that Camper has the lowest run out of the highest 24 hour distance. Even Sanya covered more miles in their fastest 24 hour run.

 

http://www.volvoocea...4hsrun/rdc.html

 

But Camper have the highest overall 24 hour run, therefore also have the ability to go very fast.

What's your point?

 

point was that Puma have recorded the highest 24 hour run in two legs so they are clearly fast, and cover alot of miles, but it may be boat placement that is hurting them?

 

Puma definitely look fast, but I have never really understood why they either 1) go for huge separation from the rest of the fleet, or 2) fail to pick so many holes or shifts.

 

 

For example on this leg how many extra miles did they initially sail simply to be back with everyone else (excl G4) .

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With 400 miles of brutal upwind sailing, I suspect that second place may go to the boat that does not break anything. Even a damaged sail would send you from 2nd to 4th pretty fast.

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Speaking of breaking bits, are they on their J2s now?

 

And Azzam had better watch out back there, the Sanya-van is coming too!

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Forecast for the NE coast of NZ tomorrow.........................Forecast: Southeast 30 knots easing to 20 knots tonight, becoming northeast 15 knots Saturday afternoon...

 

 

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Wow, check back in and lots is happening... The T&P duel has got to look good from Camper's deck.

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For sure..

But is the East gonna pay off again...?

Would have thought the French may have thrown in a tack by now....

Some sort of cover at least!

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Didn't I tell you blokes last night, prediction: Camper overtakes Puma and has a go at Telefonica - well, they can blow a kiss at the disappearing ass of the red fire engine right now because it goes to windward like a witch. And high too, compared to the others, they'll lay through past North Cape in one go. Sorry Puma followers.

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they'll lay through past North Cape in one go. Sorry Puma followers.

 

That's a big call bro, but they do seem to be coming up all the time.

You getting down to the Viaduct?

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Interesting that two boats Camper and Sanya, are foot down heading on the favoured port tack toward NZ as fast as possible.

Could be they know something the others do not?

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I can see why getting North early before the wind backs could be attractive as long as they don't over do it and run out of wind.

post-41116-030829000 1331272675_thumb.png

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Didn't I tell you blokes last night, prediction: Camper overtakes Puma and has a go at Telefonica - well, they can blow a kiss at the disappearing ass of the red fire engine right now because it goes to windward like a witch. And high too, compared to the others, they'll lay through past North Cape in one go. Sorry Puma followers.

 

 

 

I like Tele's position. KR should not, in my view, have let Tele get to his left, because the wind seems forecast to back markedly over the next few hours, and Tele will have some gauge on Puma that is a little worrisome. Anyhow, it's not a disaster and maybe KR can catch Tele with their pants down, banging the corner and then way overstanding to TK. Just go fast, Puma.

 

I don't know squat about currents in that area but I know there are a lot. Anyone care to explain?

 

These poor guys must be absolutely knackered -- 22 foot seas!?!??!! -- and they have quite a bit more sailing to do. And they have been tacking like crazy -- and I'm sure that the skips make them move the entire stack over even for short tacks. Whoa. What a brutally hard leg. Then in a couple days, they do it all over again!!!

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^^^ Yes, much as I hate to say it it looks to me like Tele has taken a bit more out of Puma (maybe down 1.5ish miles now?) and they are on the left with a back expected. Gotta just be hellish out there. At least they have a moon.

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Still 400 miles to go but wow 3 boats within a few miles of each other, somebody is going to miss out on a podium, why does my gut feeling say Puma 4th? Love to see them come in 2nd but a few days to do at this rate.

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Did the groupies forget what side of the island Aukland is on?

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Did the groupies forget what side of the island Aukland is on?

 

If there is a tidal gate east of the island they better hope they make it.

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With 400 miles of brutal upwind sailing, I suspect that second place may go to the boat that does not break anything. Even a damaged sail would send you from 2nd to 4th pretty fast.

+1

 

Amazing how close theses boats are after so many miles. Groupama has really had an excellent race. The front four teams on this leg deserve to be there. They are very closely matched, though still.

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Looks like a nice right shift for Puma. Funny to be thinking "T tacked out of phase, P makes a bit..." 400 miles out.

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What are Groupama up to? They do know that you can't get to Auckland via the Kipara Harbor don't they?

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Don't you think Camper will overtake Puma and Tele? They can take advantege of the battle, and now seem to point slighty higher in the tracker. And this with a slower boat ... ;)

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Don't you think Camper will overtake Puma and Tele? They can take advantege of the battle, and now seem to point slighty higher in the tracker. And this with a slower boat ... ;)

 

Idk, almost seems to good to be true for Camper.

 

Camper has been riding a hell of a lift for the past 30 mins.

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Go back and look at the forecast. Easing to 15 and going NE...........

 

 

 

Don't you think Camper will overtake Puma and Tele? They can take advantege of the battle, and now seem to point slighty higher in the tracker. And this with a slower boat ... ;)

 

Idk, almost seems to good to be true for Camper.

 

Camper has been riding a hell of a lift for the past 30 mins.

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What are Groupama up to? They do know that you can't get to Auckland via the Kipara Harbor don't they?

 

I'd say they were getting south to stay in the breeze. They've tacked now, heading 056, almost straight at the islands.

 

Nico and his boys must be loving Campers speed and height compared to Puma and Tele right now.

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Looks like Tele is passing Puma, again.

They just seem to be around 1 kn faster.

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G4 considered that they could afford to spend a few hours in smaller waves and save the boat. Why not. They didnt ever loose mile

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It's going to be close when camper goes back at them.

Just hope it's a beat the whole way to Tiri.

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G4 considered that they could afford to spend a few hours in smaller waves and save the boat. Why not. They didnt ever loose mile

Sounds reasonable. Also seems to me G4 is positioning themselves in favourable current. Their SOG has been 1-1.5 knots faster than their SOW (speedowater) for at least 24 hours. I've seen this tendency for at least 48hrs. Not same tendency for the other boats.

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Can anyone explain what's going on as between Tele and Puma. I realize it is a non-starter for Puma to slap a tight cover on Tele for a zillion reasons. But is there different thinking in ocean racing than inshore buoy racing as far as a loose cover? If Puma is solely concerned with beating Tele, why do they not simply stay upwind of them instead of ~15 miles to the side and allowing significant leverage -- and, accordingly, risk -- to develop? I assume that they, like us, are now getting position reports once a minute, and alternatively that even in the huge waves they should be able to pick up Tele at least intermittently on radar. Thanks if anyone can clarifiy.

 

They can not receive outside routing assistance, can they?

 

No way they have access to the tracker. They only know where everybody is every 3 hours when they get their scheds. I think it was KR who said this is a series of 3 hour races, lots of them!

 

All you would need is an ipod touch with access to the boats internet.

 

There are limits on routing and weather. I think they have at least a 3 hour resolution on exactly where the other boats are. Probably more than that.

 

But they get outside assist all the time. They are in constant contact with the shore team for all the little issues on the boat. Remember the videos of BB calling Russel Bowler etc. last go round?

 

Puma and Tele are match racing and have let Camper slip by on a nice lift for the RHS of the course (southern position).

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What are Groupama up to? They do know that you can't get to Auckland via the Kipara Harbor don't they?

 

I'd say they were getting south to stay in the breeze. They've tacked now, heading 056, almost straight at the islands.

 

Nico and his boys must be loving Campers speed and height compared to Puma and Tele right now.

they will be lifted on starboard tack all the way as they round the headland.

don't know how it is called in english but in french it is "effet éventail" = fan effect

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Sad for GP4 it will be longer to reach 2nd overall...

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Sad for GP4 it will be longer to reach 2nd overall...

 

No-one remembers who came second.

I'd wager their target is a little higher than that.

If anyone gets between them and Tele I'd say they'd be very happy.

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Great race and coverage.

 

 

For the overall win it looks like we have 3 serious candidates. Camper has a small speed handicap under certain condition. But if tomorrow they finish second they remain a strong candidate for overall win.

 

To win a leg or two in remaining legs Puma is in the game as well.

 

Four boats capable to win a leg.... we had that in the last edition of the race, but now both crews and boats look closer to each other.

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Sad for GP4 it will be longer to reach 2nd overall...

 

From their perspective, they need puma 2nd, Camper third and Telefonica 4th but if Telefonica ends up in 3rd or 4th, that's good for them in the long term.

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Amazing after 19 days of racing 5 boats are within 100 miles of each other

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Group tacked

 

Looks like they are planing to use a wind rotation to sneak down on the same tack close to shore.... around 200 miles ... 20+ hours of sailing?.... hmm

10+ hours more for the rest of the bunch

 

 

 

 

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Amazing after 19 days of racing 5 boats are within 100 miles of each other

 

Don't think Camper will be in second anymore at the next cross. Good stuff.

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Amazing after 19 days of racing 5 boats are within 100 miles of each other

 

Don't think Camper will be in second anymore at the next cross. Good stuff.

 

It's going to be another tight cross for those boys.

 

Imho I think that boat design is going to take a back seat in the result of this drag race for 2nd to 4th. These guys have been pushing hard for close to 20 days and now that they're in sight of each other you know they'll be pushing even harder. Keeping the big sails up longer, pushing for horsepower, grinding down the crew. At some point fatigue is going to become a major factor so the team that has been able to stay the best rested will probably come out on top.

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Amazing after 19 days of racing 5 boats are within 100 miles of each other

 

Don't think Camper will be in second anymore at the next cross. Good stuff.

 

It's going to be another tight cross for those boys.

 

Imho I think that boat design is going to take a back seat in the result of this drag race for 2nd to 4th. These guys have been pushing hard for close to 20 days and now that they're in sight of each other you know they'll be pushing even harder. Keeping the big sails up longer, pushing for horsepower, grinding down the crew. At some point fatigue is going to become a major factor so the team that has been able to stay the best rested will probably come out on top.

 

Camper tacked; cross coming up. Looks like they will trail, but will round Cape Reinga close enough to Puma and Tele to make the last few hundred miles a 3-boat battle for 2-4. Gonna be a nail-biter and even minor breakdowns or problems will be a killer.

 

Amazing how closely PUMA and Tele are matching one another.

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where is the rock that Mike Golding hit many years ago in one of his Group 4 IMOCA 60's - isn't that somewhere near the northern tip of NZ? Imagine these guys are a bit smarter than he was.....

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Amazing after 19 days of racing 5 boats are within 100 miles of each other

 

Don't think Camper will be in second anymore at the next cross. Good stuff.

 

It's going to be another tight cross for those boys.

 

 

 

Camper tacked; cross coming up. Looks like they will trail, but will round Cape Reinga close enough to Puma and Tele to make the last few hundred miles a 3-boat battle for 2-4. Gonna be a nail-biter and even minor breakdowns or problems will be a killer.

 

Amazing how closely PUMA and Tele are matching one another.

 

Imho I think that boat design is going to take a back seat in the result of this drag race for 2nd to 4th. These guys have been pushing hard for close to 20 days and now that they're in sight of each other you know they'll be pushing even harder. Keeping the big sails up longer, pushing for horsepower, grinding down the crew. At some point fatigue is going to become a major factor so the team that has been able to stay the best rested will probably come out on top.

 

*********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************

 

I would be shocked if they take it to the line of Puma...the wind is predicted to go left before any of these 3 boats make the point. IF Camper sees they will be taking sterns...which is most likely the case, they will tack short by 10 or 15 miles and bank on the lift...it is predicted to be over 10 degres. Plus Camper seems to be able to point a degree or 2 higher...only time will tell.

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Just catching up. Great racing! But, with all respect, the headline on the VOR would be correct if it read "Most of North Island Has disappeared: Camper Rally in Race for Second Place". Given the wind and the need to beat the positions look the same so far (G, P, T C) but with lots of racing yet for all the places are up for grabs except maybe G4's. I understand that some kind of in race ranking is needed and it isn't trivial, but distance to the finish over stuff that can't be sailed on is a bit simple. Not to count results before they're in, but particularly given the competition, G4 has been just superb.

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looks like everyone after GP4 will compress like crazy after Poor Knights based on the windspeed forecast. It'll be fun watching the tacking dual once they get around Tiri! I think any of the 3 can have a shot at podiums, and if they play their cards right, AD can also get in on the game.

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this is terrific.

 

Looks like tele puma is now about 1.8m, was 3 miles last night. So tele looks to be very slowly closing the gap.

 

Camper looks the be 5 miles further back, in fourth rather than 2nd as shown on the website, but they also did a good job overnight.

 

 

post-8534-087788400 1331317467_thumb.jpg

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Camper is set to cross about 15NM behind Puma and 10 behind Telefonica. Puma seems to manage to keep the Spaniards behind for now.

 

Can Puma manage to catch Telefonica with their local knowledge? That would be perfect for Groupama!

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this is terrific.

 

Looks like tele puma is now about 1.8m, was 3 miles last night. So tele looks to be very slowly closing the gap.

 

Camper looks the be 5 miles further back, in fourth rather than 2nd as shown on the website, but they also did a good job overnight.

 

 

post-8534-087788400 1331317467_thumb.jpg

 

Freakin' epic! So do you think Camper will tack in behind them or keep pushing a bit to clear the point?

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I think Camper are more likely 10 miles behind Tele, considering they have to get to their level to be able to lay the northern cape.

 

This is thrilling!

 

camper%20back.jpg

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Camper has certainly gained a lot... FWIW, I make P +3 on T and T +7 on C wrt my guess at the true wind...

post-41116-060041100 1331318756_thumb.png

post-41116-042661900 1331318770_thumb.png

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Tele should be able too see Camper by now. If the +6hr wind forecasts are close, Camper can't afford to tack anytime soon but they just did. Yikes! Looks like Puma has about a mile or so on Tele to Cape Reinga.

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Camper tacked to leeward. If they lay from there they will neck and neck with PUMA and Camper. If they don't, they won't have lost much more than if they had sailed to their line now.

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Either Telefonica is trying to foot away from Puma and Puma is covering, or Sanya and AD are in different breeze and lifted a good bit compared to the Telefonica/Puma course.

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Tele is in their fast footing mode and Puma is thinking about going above the islands to gain separation and not get stuck in one of their famous wind holes on the leward side.

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Right now PUMA, TELE, and CAMPER all show a heading of 135 and speed of 14.0. Quite a drag race. Latest Volvo HQ vid shows some of the sea state, and indicates that the boats were more than aware of each other's positions through the night:

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