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Catfan

Project 14 by BIMARE

18 posts in this topic

Surfing on beach cats' websites I just found an interesting new.

At BIMARE they are working on a new 14' design to be offered in two different versions:

"basic" intended for sailing schools and recreational use and "racing" aimed to prepare youngsters to A cat sailing.

I avoid to spend more words to clarify the concept behind the two boats beacause they are clearly explained on BIMARE website at the link:

http://www.bimare.org/enproject14.htm

It is worth saying also that BIMARE is asking opinions from the beachcat community in order to set the main design parameters of the racing version, (width, mast lenght, mainsail area, weight, etc) together with the fundamental marketing decisions such as name and retail price.

Apparently the first to put forward some proposals was BIMARE Benelux, the official Bimare distributor for Netherlands and Belgium, which already posted on its website a few specifications concerning the 14 Project:

http://www.bimarecats.blogspot.com/2012/02/project-14.html#comment-form

What do you think?

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Lets not pretend that you were just "surfing along" and just "found" something "new".

 

You're the unofficial official mouthpiece of Bimare and you got this in your inbox.

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Except where dealing with quite sophisticated customers, for example high level competitors, designing by survey is pretty sad.

 

I think that if Bimare doesn't know more about it than the average beach cat buyer, then something is wrong. The company should know how to satisfy their needs better than the average potential buyer can put into numbers (width, mainsail area, etc.)

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Maybe they should think about making the beem small enough that it can fit inside/underneath a F18 or similar so that children can travel to regattas with parents. Also the boat may be cartopable. If you think about singlehand kids boats. They don't often have a dedicated trailer.

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Will it be price competitive with my A$600 Maricat (14'), it's only 25-30 years old but is quite competitive against other, newer 14' cats.

 

Car top - definitely no - my mast must be 7m, beam is 2.4m. Weight would need to be in the moth region to be easily thrown onto a car.

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Except where dealing with quite sophisticated customers, for example high level competitors, designing by survey is pretty sad.

 

I think that if Bimare doesn't know more about it than the average beach cat buyer, then something is wrong. The company should know how to satisfy their needs better than the average potential buyer can put into numbers (width, mainsail area, etc.)

===============

I disagree emphatically: I think it is a class act for a company to actively seek feedback from high or low level customers! Thats one of the good things about SA..... It is blockheaded companies that make all that investment with no feedback that create problems for themselves and their customers. The "we know it all" attitude is a bad one and I wouldn't want to deal with such a company. These guys deserve a lot of credit for , at least, trying.

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Well, personally I'd rather for example have Goran Marstrom come up with sail area, beam, etc, than have him query me and follow my advice of what I think would be best for each design parameter of the boat.

 

I know what my priorities are -- and if numbers are well off of what makes sense for me I'll know it -- but if I thought my design ability matched let alone exceeded that of a top designer and wanted to substitute my numbers to achieve my priorities instead of him making the call, I'd be deceiving and shorting myself.

 

Let each designer do his best to fit each market niche, let each buyer decide for himself which builder he thinks is best matching his own needs and desires.

 

Design by survey? Not for me. But if you like it, then that's fine too. Do you think you are likely to buy it?

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Will it be price competitive with my A$600 Maricat (14'), it's only 25-30 years old but is quite competitive against other, newer 14' cats.

 

" a new 14 feet aimed to replace the fat, heavy and slow boats presently used by many clubs"

and that doesn't include the nut on the tiller extension.

there is no doubt a 14 footer designed in 2012 could lap you over 3

 

as for comparing the price of 30yo giveaways against a new showroom product perhaps you could show that with cars or bikes ?

 

 

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can't see it being but a few bucks less than the full sized boats...all carbon, high tech sails, etc... not sure dads want to spend that kind of cash for toys they can't play on. think hobie wave, bravo, rotomolded hulls-alum. mast-cheaper sails. something clubs could afford to buy more than one of...and something they could tear up that's cheap to fix.

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Except where dealing with quite sophisticated customers, for example high level competitors, designing by survey is pretty sad.

 

I think that if Bimare doesn't know more about it than the average beach cat buyer, then something is wrong. The company should know how to satisfy their needs better than the average potential buyer can put into numbers (width, mainsail area, etc.)

 

I do believe that BIMARE know how to design and build its catamarans.

According to me they are asking for feedbacks in order to ascertain if the MINI A cat "concept" they thought of has some kind of marketing appeal.

They seek for opinions about the best, let's say, "cost to hi-tech feature" option:

in other terms what we catamaran enthusiasts would like to have on this particular boat and how much we are ready to pay for it.

A similar attempt was succesfully brought forward on SA with the Flying Tiger project a couple of years ago.

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Oh, so then they are asking what beam to use, what size main to use, etc without intending to actually change their decisions based on Internet opinions?

 

I suspect that that actually is indeed the case -- I do know that they know how to design a catamaran.

 

My point is that this survey is likely more of a show than a reality. Most likely they are not really going to base their mainsail size, for example, off of an Internet survey. Or at least one would hope not.

 

It's to make people feel positive about the approach Bimare is taking, as Doug describes. But, I would hope, they're really going to set mainsail size, beam, weight, etc according to their own judgment, not Internet survey results.

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Oh, so then they are asking what beam to use, what size main to use, etc without intending to actually change their decisions based on Internet opinions?

 

I suspect that that actually is indeed the case -- I do know that they know how to design a catamaran.

 

My point is that this survey is likely more of a show than a reality. Most likely they are not really going to base their mainsail size, for example, off of an Internet survey. Or at least one would hope not.

 

It's to make people feel positive about the approach Bimare is taking, as Doug describes. But, I would hope, they're really going to set mainsail size, beam, weight, etc according to their own judgment, not Internet survey results.

==============

Thats a highly simplistic and unrealistic view of the process, Trenace! The participation of potential owners(high and low level) made history here on SA not too long ago with the Flying Tiger. It's not just a "show"- it is give and take and can produce outstanding results.

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I don't think Bob was asking anyone or the group to tell him the mainsail size, beam, etc.

 

Or if he did set the beam (for example) differently than he thought best for those in the market for the boat, on account of what people posted, then the boat IMO would have been the worse for it. It would have been better to go with his judgment. But I expect that's what was done anyway. (It would take too long to go through the entire thread to verify, but please feel free if you like and I'll take your word for your findings.)

 

If using that example.

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Oh, so then they are asking what beam to use, what size main to use, etc without intending to actually change their decisions based on Internet opinions?

 

I suspect that that actually is indeed the case -- I do know that they know how to design a catamaran.

 

My point is that this survey is likely more of a show than a reality. Most likely they are not really going to base their mainsail size, for example, off of an Internet survey. Or at least one would hope not.

 

It's to make people feel positive about the approach Bimare is taking, as Doug describes. But, I would hope, they're really going to set mainsail size, beam, weight, etc according to their own judgment, not Internet survey results.

==============

Thats a highly simplistic and unrealistic view of the process, Trenace! The participation of potential owners(high and low level) made history here on SA not too long ago with the Flying Tiger. It's not just a "show"- it is give and take and can produce outstanding results.

It has also been known to produce a camel.

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I don't think Bob was asking anyone or the group to tell him the mainsail size, beam, etc.

 

Or if he did set the beam (for example) differently than he thought best for those in the market for the boat, on account of what people posted, then the boat IMO would have been the worse for it. It would have been better to go with his judgment. But I expect that's what was done anyway. (It would take too long to go through the entire thread to verify, but please feel free if you like and I'll take your word for your findings.)

 

If using that example.

a bloody shipping container set the beam

 

 

topic drift

 

back to the 14' multi

 

 

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There's a cat in Oz, Glider - 13' - one of the guys at our club bought one for his youngster (who wanted to trap but not big enough for sloop rigged 14') - the kids were out on it all morning having a whale of a time.

 

Looks a little like a small Taipan. Slow as a dog if the driver is too big (as we mostly are these days unfortunately).

 

(least I thought it was a Glider, maybe some other name - ie can't find it on google)

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Just my opinion, but I think the time is dead right to start introducing trainer classes that demand more sailing finesse. Truth is the racing boats of today are getting pretty good: design and materials are superb and demand a higher level of training. In just 50 years we have gone from cotton & flax sails with cane battens to extraordinary laminates and membranes, designed and cut on computers with advanced fluid dynamic understanding.

 

Hulls have gone from planks to ply to grp to Kevlar & carbon. Spars have gone from timber to metal to carbon.

 

It is consistent then to address the training of the crew in the new orders of technology, and the Bimare concept is a great step in that direction.

 

And I don't see any problem with a manufacturer having the insight to seek community input into a concept. One suggestion was great - carry it along inside another cat by reducing it's beam. OK I know that is not needed because they can be double or triple stacked, but out come the ideas - dad can take his kids sailing on their own boat.

 

Give the idea some clear air guys, I think there are some really good points to kick around.

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This is an update regarding the latest design of the Italian boatyard.

Actually only one of the three different versions of the 4-Teen BIMARE anticipated was finalized (I suppose for lack of time):

the sloop rigged (with gennaker) double crew "family version" fitted either with curved daggerboards or with the round, self-rising boards originally intended for the sailing school version.

At EUR 7,900 plus VAT (with carbon mast) it seems a very good value for money (at 88 kg ready to sail is also quite light).

The UNIRIG, much lighter (60 Kg), "mini A class version" with a taller mast and a bigger mainsail is expected to be lunched early in 2013 along with a true "full flagged" school version.

Let's wait and see if BIMARE with its 14' range is going to discover a new market niche.

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