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    • UnderDawg

      A Few Simple Rules   05/22/2017

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Nessun Dorma

Used Boat Bid and Ask

47 posts in this topic

I have a good friend who is getting ready to purchase a 1989 Sabre MkII. The boat's in great condition and has been well cared for and shows well.

 

The current owner is a neighbor of the buyer, and he would like to sell the boat quickly and without a broker. They both agree on what the "average asking price" for a Sabre in the condition and with the extras this one has should be. My buyer buddy say there's a lot of data on that, or if there isn't, the two of them at least think so and agree on the right ask.

 

What neither knows is what the usual difference between asking price and sales price is on a 20 year old "superior" design such as a Sabre. As a percentage of what we all see listed, is the discount 15%, 20% or more? I told them I'd post here becuase the guys on CA know everything, and if they don't they'll make shit up.

 

Seriously, these two are close to an agreemernt but need this one data point. In a soft market like this, boats sit listed for YEARS, so who knows the actual sales price?

 

I know some of you are brokers or close to the business. If I can give these guys credible evidence or help, they both will be happy.

 

Thanks in advance. And both they and the boat are in the Baltimore area, if that matters.

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I did this with a friend of mine a few years ago when I sold him my boat without a broker. We agreed on the price, knocked off 10% for the usual negotiation, and then knocked off another 5% to split the savings on the broker's commission that I was not going to have to pay.

 

Net, net was 15% off the price we saw in Yachtworld for a comparable boat.

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I have to agree. These days, I think the hardball negotiation starts at 50% of 'first attempt' listing price. Between friends, a 25% discount should make them both unhappy.

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ND, why not call a friendly broker, if someone knows one?

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It sounds like they are pretty close... maybe they should just flip a coin. :)

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ND is this boat kept at a marina? Is it a plywood boat? I spend 10% (or there abouts) on the value of my boat just to park it. If one or both of the previous questions is answered yes then 60% is a low bit, 80% is to high as a starting bid for a buyer who is realistic.

 

It's an old boat (O.K. a lot newer than mine but..) and the new owner in some ways is taking the responsibilty of paying the marina fees of said boat.

 

It's just a crappy market for somone wanting to sell but that is how it is.

 

My 2c

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This is a difficult situation to try and get a specific answer. I just sold a 6 year old production boat fairly quickly and for 10% under my asking price. I looked at prices of where boats like mine had actually sold in the past six to twelve months, and priced my boat ten percent over that. My price probably looked agressive, but my boat sold for no less than any others that had sold in the prior year. At the same time there were unrealistic sellers who were listing similar boats for much more.

Like with houses, people will ask crazy amounts for their boats. Brokers have little ability to influence the unreasonable seller, so these boats sit on yacht world for ever. Very little info can be gleaned from their asking prices. Sailboats can be a unique and illiquid market.

Maybe your friend can pay a nominal amount to a local broker just to get a listing of the actual sale prices of similar boats. All brokers have access to this info.

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What neither knows is what the usual difference between asking price and sales price is on a 20 year old "superior" design such as a Sabre. As a percentage of what we all see listed, is the discount 15%, 20% or more? I told them I'd post here becuase the guys on CA know everything, and if they don't they'll make shit up.

 

Seriously, these two are close to an agreemernt but need this one data point. In a soft market like this, boats sit listed for YEARS, so who knows the actual sales price?

 

 

Asking prices are not a great predictor. As a broad average, I saw that boats tended to sell about 10% below their asking price. But that same boat may have had two previous (higher) asking prices. It did not sell at those prices.

 

So I guess one reasonable answer would be 10% below a good asking price, as in, for a boat that is seriously for sale at a price reflecting condition.

 

A better answer would be: go ask a broker to price it. Work your way around behind his desk as he goes to soldboats.com and make sure he enters appropriate search criteria. It's just like a yachtworld search, but searches the sold boat database. You can learn the reported selling prices of all the recent brokerage sales. Keep in mind that brokers do not always report the selling price accurately, and that there are plenty of sales that do not go through a brokerage, so a soldboats.com valuation is a data point, not an absolute answer. I found it to be a good predictor of selling price if there were at least 5 recent comparable sales.

 

An even better answer would be to get boat-specific and hire a good surveyor to look at the boat. They inevitably find things that even the owner did not know about. They also miss stuff and get things wrong. Still, if these people are neighbors and are friendly, future boat problems might go over easier if it can be said that, "Well, the surveyor you hired missed it and I sure didn't know about it."

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+1 - There is a portion of Yachtworld called YachtWizard where the brokers can see the final sales price on boats sold. When I sold my last boat (fall 2010), I priced based on recent sales and similar boats still listed. Sold within 5% of my ask. Similarly, when I bought my most recent boat (Spring 2011) I used the same to figure out what people had actually paid and started from there.

 

If you know a friendly broker, you can call and ask for the favor... then take off all or part of the 10% commission.

 

Also, friendly or not, hope they get a good survey!

 

This is a difficult situation to try and get a specific answer. I just sold a 6 year old production boat fairly quickly and for 10% under my asking price. I looked at prices of where boats like mine had actually sold in the past six to twelve months, and priced my boat ten percent over that. My price probably looked agressive, but my boat sold for no less than any others that had sold in the prior year. At the same time there were unrealistic sellers who were listing similar boats for much more.

Like with houses, people will ask crazy amounts for their boats. Brokers have little ability to influence the unreasonable seller, so these boats sit on yacht world for ever. Very little info can be gleaned from their asking prices. Sailboats can be a unique and illiquid market.

Maybe your friend can pay a nominal amount to a local broker just to get a listing of the actual sale prices of similar boats. All brokers have access to this info.

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Surveyors have access to the services listing actual selling prices, too. If you have a friend who is a broker or surveyor, he'll probably help you out.

 

Problem is that the actual prices generally fall in a wide range between the guy who paid too much for a boat in good condition to the guy who took a loser off someone's hands at a "cash now, immediate sale, as is" price.

 

I don't think there is a "standard markup" in the way you envision.

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No commission to pay and the boat goes away NOW??

 

Having just sold my boat, I'd say 30-35% is reasonable.

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I don't think you really need a broker who is a friend, just one with a brain.

 

Let's suppose I'm sitting there in the office, not selling a boat. Two guys come in, one of whom is selling a boat and the other is buying. These are my kind of guys! They say they don't want my services right now, but does that mean neither of them ever will? Does it mean they have no friends who might want to use a broker? I say no to both, and taking a few minutes to do a little market research for them would be time well spent. But I don't work in a brokerage any more.

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I just tentatively sold my boat for around 50% of what I paid for a year and a half ago. That's after shitloads of work on my part recoring decks, fiberglass, paint, etc. I'll make up a bit of the difference by selling it before I have to put it in the water, and that saves me the cost of travel lift, mast stepping, slip fees, etc, prolly around 20% of the value of the boat right there.

 

But then last year I sold the folkboat for the same price I had bought it for the year prior to that. Way too many variables at play imo :)

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I just tentatively sold my boat for around 50% of what I paid for a year and a half ago. That's after shitloads of work on my part recoring decks, fiberglass, paint, etc. I'll make up a bit of the difference by selling it before I have to put it in the water, and that saves me the cost of travel lift, mast stepping, slip fees, etc, prolly around 20% of the value of the boat right there.

 

But then last year I sold the folkboat for the same price I had bought it for the year prior to that. Way too many variables at play imo :)

 

How did that "no surveyor" boat work out?

 

Sorry, couldn't resist the dig. Ouch.

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I just tentatively sold my boat for around 50% of what I paid for a year and a half ago. That's after shitloads of work on my part recoring decks, fiberglass, paint, etc. I'll make up a bit of the difference by selling it before I have to put it in the water, and that saves me the cost of travel lift, mast stepping, slip fees, etc, prolly around 20% of the value of the boat right there.

 

But then last year I sold the folkboat for the same price I had bought it for the year prior to that. Way too many variables at play imo :)

 

How did that "no surveyor" boat work out?

 

Sorry, couldn't resist the dig. Ouch.

 

 

haha no worries. Kind of stings, alot. Unfortunately i burned myself out doing all the work to it last winter. Had fun with it this summer, but found out 99.9% of the time I'm sailing i just go out for an our or two and screw around in the harbour or bay. I don't need a boat with a cabin, galley, etc for that. Will miss having a place to hangout on the water this summer :( Also just bought a house on an inland lake and i'm enjoying working on house projects for now, even less time for boat work. All adds up :D But yes, I overpayed for the boat by a shitload because I was an idiot and didn't have it surveyed ;)

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I suggest the following flow chart to gauge the ethics of your offer, keeping in mind that the used boat market sucks and if someone really needs to get rid of a boat they will take peanuts for it rather than continue to hemorrhage money for storage and upkeep :P This is mostly about deciding how much you are willing to offend the seller though, most boats will sell for a lot less than yachtworld list:

 

Is this a purchase between good friends?

If yes then you need to come to a price jointly and amicably by looking at the options out there together and comparing prices vs time on market

If no:

Is this your dream boat and no other boat will ever fill the hole in your heart left by not getting it? If yes then 10-15% below ask and be ok with paying full ask because you might be a sucker and the seller will see the gleam of love in your eyes :)

If no:

Is this the best of several options you want? If yes 20-25% below ask to start negotiation

If no

Is this just one of the thousands of used boats for sale and you would be happy with a number of different options If yes: offer 50% of ask to start negotiation be willing to walk away if you get beyond 15% in your bargaining

If no

then this is just a boat that for the right price you would buy but otherwise don't care about and you should offer 25% of ask and not pay a penny more. You may end up with the boat if the seller really wants to sell but if you don't who cares

 

 

In my view all boats are "just another used boat" and I would never pay first asking price. I think 25% under is entirely reasonable, although it pains me because I want to sell my boat too...

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The answer is 10-15% below a valid and fair asking price. The problem is that the actual selling price will vary considerably above and below that value depending on actual condition, equipment, and the value of the boat and equipment to the buyer. We saw sales pricing up to 40% below the average asking price, but would not have purchased those boats. Also, I really do like the Sabre line, but an example that a friend purchased new was on the market when we were looking. It required a $14K yard bill to put it in reasonable condition and the cosmetics were not addressed. Even good boats get neglected, sometimes in ways you can't see if you don't know where to look. Solution........find a good surveyer. Have him look over the boat and identify any issues. The surveyer can show you examples of what the boat has sold for recently. Then sit down and establish a reasonable value that both friends agree is fair. Final thought.......most boats need 10-30% of the purchase price to upgrade stuff the new owner wants to change. That and any sales tax due is part of the purchase price. Boats, cars, horses....buyer beware...a good way to make or lose a friend.

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The answer is 10-15% below a valid and fair asking price. The problem is that the actual selling price will vary considerably above and below that value depending on actual condition, equipment, and the value of the boat and equipment to the buyer. [snip]

 

You, sir, have a credibility problem.

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i don't think this question has an answer...

 

i frequently see 50% or more variation in asking price for a given boat, and it's not always the case that the boat with the higher asking price is newer/better than the one with the lower price.

 

this sounds like the kind of situation where each party ends up thinking they got the worse end of the deal.

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The answer is 10-15% below a valid and fair asking price. The problem is that the actual selling price will vary considerably above and below that value depending on actual condition, equipment, and the value of the boat and equipment to the buyer. [snip]

 

You, sir, have a credibility problem.

 

 

Thank you for the "Sir" - and I take your point. What I should have said was that the actual selling price will vary considerably above and below the average selling price for a given boat model.

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The answer is 10-15% below a valid and fair asking price. The problem is that the actual selling price will vary considerably above and below that value depending on actual condition, equipment, and the value of the boat and equipment to the buyer. [snip]

 

You, sir, have a credibility problem.

 

 

Thank you for the "Sir" - and I take your point. What I should have said was that the actual selling price will vary considerably above and below the average selling price for a given boat model.

 

Yes its Cherie,Sir from now on.

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Thanks for all the good data and suggestions. I have passed them on to the buyer (he actually visited here). He and the Seller are not good friends, but casual ones. The boat is in pristine condition; I have sailed on it with the both of them. They both want to be fair to one another but dont know what thay means. They have agreed to a survey, but there is a 5 year old survey and a stack of yard bills and notebook detailing all the work and maintenance done the past 5 years. The risk there is small i think. The missing piece for them is how far off the list prices they now see is fair. I LOVE Tom's idea of walking into a good broker's office and just asking. Love it. My guess reading all the comments, and what I've told them, is that they should assume a discopunt range of between 15 and 20% in this market, since this is an immediate CASH buyer -- then take the 10% commision and split it, so that's 5% less. That yields a range of 20% to 25% below the "listed price" they seem to both think is the norm. I suggested they take that to a broker for "verification", and do as Tom suggests.

 

Does that all make sense?

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But yes, I overpayed for the boat by a shitload because I was an idiot and didn't have it surveyed ;)

 

LOL - me too, and my boat was about $22.75 including a tip for the waitress after I bought lunch. :D

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This should give you the spread on Sabers...

 

 

 

 

Sold Boat Data Sabre

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Wow kid, thanks a lot for that -- I'm onna look like a hero now. Really, thanks, very very helpful.

 

This should give you the spread on Sabers...

 

 

 

 

Sold Boat Data Sabre

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Thanks for all the good data and suggestions. I have passed them on to the buyer (he actually visited here). He and the Seller are not good friends, but casual ones.

 

... ...

 

I suggested they take that to a broker for "verification", and do as Tom suggests.

 

Does that all make sense?

 

Tom's idea makes the most sense IMHO but another idea that can cut the process short and arrive at the same (hopefully mutual) satisfaction- a game we call 2-card poker. The buyer writes how much he wants to pay on a slip of paper. The seller writes how much he wants to get on another slip of paper. Neither can see what the other is writing. Then they either trade paper, or hand the slips to a trusted 3rd person. Split the difference. Takes less than a minute.

 

I have done this with cars but not with boats.

 

FB- Doug

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your welcome

 

 

 

Wow kid, thanks a lot for that -- I'm onna look like a hero now. Really, thanks, very very helpful.

 

This should give you the spread on Sabers...

 

 

 

 

Sold Boat Data Sabre

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In consideration of another possible data point, how well do the NADA bluebook prices reflect reality?

 

That depends on the boat. The NADA, Buc, and ABOS blue books are all pretty good on "commodity boats" and especially powerboats. Sailboats, not so much. Rare sailboats, they are all over the board, can be way high or way low.

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How confident are we in that sold.com data? The numbers are self-reported by brokers who might have an interest in being optimistic. Are they verifiable?

 

I'm too effing cynical.

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How confident are we in that sold.com data? The numbers are self-reported by brokers who might have an interest in being optimistic. Are they verifiable?

 

I'm too effing cynical.

 

For four posts you are. It's supposed to be all positive vibrations until at least your 40th post. Now Happy The Fuck Up.

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How confident are we in that sold.com data? The numbers are self-reported by brokers who might have an interest in being optimistic. Are they verifiable?

 

I'm too effing cynical.

 

During my time at a brokerage, I found it to be pretty reliable if you have enough boats in the report. Brokers have conflicting interests when it comes to that data. I would use it to show owners just how little their boats were worth when listing a boat. At that time, you want reliable data. I also found it pretty easy to filter out broker reports that were obviously false. It sat overpriced on the market for a year and then sold for the asking price, huh? Yeah, right. If I could get a list of a dozen comparables, toss any obvious lies, then maybe toss the highest and/or lowest because those often reflect some perfect boat or some absolute piece of junk, neither of which I was listing, I could get a pretty good idea where a boat would actually sell.

 

If what they were selling was so uncommon that there were only three soldboats listed, one an obvious lie and two others far away on fresh water, blue books and/or closely related (but more common) soldboats were useful.

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Rare sailboats, they are all over the board, can be way high or way low.

 

Tom, would you put Corsair 24's into the rare category?

 

Looking at YW, the prices seem incredibly high - to the point where 5 year old boats are asking the same price as a new (introductory sale when new) model!

 

Example - a 2003-2005 Corsair 24 MKII may be listed at 37 to 47K - those are close the prices when new!

NADA shows 23-26K. Yet none are anywhere near this price nor them seem to be looking for such offers. One did lower from 45K to 40K, but that's a long way from 30K.

 

Oh - although there are not dozens of these for sale, there are quite a few and in general they are not selling fast. Some have been around a year or so, it seems.

 

It's just hard to fathom why someone would spend 40's for a 5-8 year old boat when the spanking new one was introduced for 50K with sails and trailer (FOB Vietnam, so add 6K or so).

 

Scratching my head........

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Rare sailboats, they are all over the board, can be way high or way low.

 

Tom, would you put Corsair 24's into the rare category?

 

 

Yes, but not for the reason you are asking. What is rare about the Corsair tri's is that they do not go down in dollar value. Their value is only eaten away by inflation.

 

For example, my F-27 originally sold for about $35k. 15 years later, I bought it for $35k. A steal from a friend. A few years later (and with a new engine), I sold it for $39k. If I wanted it, or one like it, back today, I'd budget $35-40k. If I had to take a wild guess as to what I could sell it for in 5 years, I'd say about $35-40k.

 

The value of a dollar might change, but the dollar value of a Corsair tri changes little. It will change a bit in response to new sails, new trailer, or other expensive additions.

 

The same is true for the F-24's. Yes, they sell for about what they sold for new. That's a rare thing in boats.

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If you are good neighbors, i suggest you pay him 30%

of the asking price and you both jointly own the boat.

Neither of you will have the time to sail her enough anyway... :-)) Howz that for an idea?

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this week, it bought a boat, it was listed at 79,900, I offered the owner $60,000, he countered at 63,500 and that is what we agreed on. The BUC value is 67,000 for "average retail" and new price is $127,000. So 80% of asking is about right...

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The value of a dollar might change, but the dollar value of a Corsair tri changes little. It will change a bit in response to new sails, new trailer, or other expensive additions.

 

The same is true for the F-24's. Yes, they sell for about what they sold for new. That's a rare thing in boats.

 

Interesting..........

 

So when NADA states their values are based on nationwide actual sales prices....and one would assume enough F-24's are sold to have some sort of "base" - they are completely off?

 

A quick study of the Corsairs seems to show that the boats were very expensive (initial sales price) for some periods - maybe when the economy was going gangbusters and they were made in CA.

But now, for instance, they had a special on a brand new boat with trailer and sails for 50K (FOB Vietnam) last year! That's about 15K or more under what the equiv. boat was new a couple years ago. In addition, the prospect of the new Farrier coming out someday...at a projected 40K or so, has obviously affected the price and market - in addition to the economy!

 

It's very confusing. I don't need to steal a boat - but I don't want to pay more than I need to either. Most owners should expect to lose a bundle in the short term (3-7 years old), although inflation and costs of materials and labor may make the boat stabler after that.

 

Just for a little chuckle....I inquired about two 20+ year old 24's listed near me - these were for sale by the owners. I asked a couple question, including what their bottom line might be. One of them warned me that F-boat sellers don't like such things (as daring to ask what they would sell the boat for) and the other simply didn't answer.

I'm only used to that sort of behavior when chasing women (and that was a LONG time ago). I don't get offended when people ask me my bottom line and don't expect others to take it personally either.

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Craig, I was talking only about the older, American-made Corsair boats. I don't know anything about the newer ones.

 

What someone else, owner or not, thinks a boat is worth is not really relevant, is it? It's worth a certain amount to you. Offer that amount. You'll find out all you need to know when the owner says yes or no.

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Craig, I was talking only about the older, American-made Corsair boats. I don't know anything about the newer ones.

 

What someone else, owner or not, thinks a boat is worth is not really relevant, is it? It's worth a certain amount to you. Offer that amount. You'll find out all you need to know when the owner says yes or no.

 

Yep...I'm this close to being an F-24 owner........maybe in the next day or two!

 

Tell you this much - having just looked at one (American made).

That is one heavy duty well made piece of resin! I can see why the value holds and why Ian is a bit crazy as to QC.........it shows in the finished product!

 

Well, keeping my fingers crossed.........

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Yep...I'm this close to being an F-24 owner........maybe in the next day or two!

 

Tell you this much - having just looked at one (American made).

That is one heavy duty well made piece of resin! I can see why the value holds and why Ian is a bit crazy as to QC.........it shows in the finished product!

 

Well, keeping my fingers crossed.........

 

Good luck! I raced in the Corsair Tri Nationals in an F-24 Mk 1 named Tango and had a blast.

 

They're very strong and hard to break, but keep in mind that they tend to die on the road, not on the water. Be careful trailering. Not as relevant up where you are, but don't let a hurricane hit it. Most in this area were destroyed by Charlie and we were very lucky our F-27 survived unharmed. They go flying and die on landing.

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Craig, I was talking only about the older, American-made Corsair boats. I don't know anything about the newer ones.

 

What someone else, owner or not, thinks a boat is worth is not really relevant, is it? It's worth a certain amount to you. Offer that amount. You'll find out all you need to know when the owner says yes or no.

 

Yep...I'm this close to being an F-24 owner........maybe in the next day or two!

 

Tell you this much - having just looked at one (American made).

That is one heavy duty well made piece of resin! I can see why the value holds and why Ian is a bit crazy as to QC.........it shows in the finished product!

 

Well, keeping my fingers crossed.........

 

Best of luck to you. I bought my used F-27 for $40,000 and sold it for $45,000 after improving it a little. Paid $90,000 for my F-31 and figure I'd do a little better now, because I've improved it as well. The track record of these boats on the used market is impressive, but it is a down market and folks need to be realistic.

 

Jesse Deupree (outing myself this being a New England discussion and all)

 

 

 

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Just for a little chuckle....I inquired about two 20+ year old 24's listed near me - these were for sale by the owners. I asked a couple question, including what their bottom line might be. One of them warned me that F-boat sellers don't like such things (as daring to ask what they would sell the boat for) and the other simply didn't answer.

I'm only used to that sort of behavior when chasing women (and that was a LONG time ago). I don't get offended when people ask me my bottom line and don't expect others to take it personally either.

It think the fact that they can sit on a trailer also changes the situation. When you can park it in your driveway you can afford to be more patient in waiting for the right price than if you are facing yard storage fees.

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Well, having a tough time buying the one I wanted...but not because of the price! Turns out it's another guy who lists his boat with the broker, then even lowers the price...and then, when money is given, starts delaying......for reasons a normal human being (one who works for money) could not understand....so I won't kiss and tell.

 

Suffice it to say some people enjoy the chase more than the capture.

 

But, hark, another one rears up.........might have to "settle" for a Sprint instead. It might be better anyway since I am a day sailer, but I really didn't need to go that fast!

 

Yeah, my wife said it looked like an airplane. I guess it is in a hurricane!

 

I'm going to moor, so that trailer will get no use except to store it.

 

The admiral is going to come with me on the next trip this week....maybe we can finally force someone to take our money. I'm starting to feel bad for boat dealers and brokers! It should not be that hard to make the seller say yes or no, but it appears many like hemming and hawing (and, as I said, not for money....more for indecision and playing with people).

 

Well, I guess all people are strange. I've run into the same situations in Real Estate....probably even been on the other end (the guy hemming and hawing when someone accepts my offer).

 

Such is life.

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Just a couple of random thoughts.

 

Back when I was a kid, way too long ago, you could buy a bottle of Coke for a nickle; now a Coke costs a buck. The price of gas has been bouncing around even more and has doubled in the last couple of years. The price of a gallon of milk or a loaf of bread has also gone up a lot over the past few years.

 

Saying you bought an Fboat for $US40k and sold it for $US45K may well only be the result of inflation.

 

I would also point to the housing market, which lots of folks say the boat market follows. In 2007 the condo next to mine sold for close twice what it would sell for now, if (and that's a big if, you could sell it.

 

On a more practical note the NADA values are what banks use to determine how much to lend a boat buyer. To some extent they are used to make sure the buyer has some skin in the game. I have been advised to take the NADA values and add 20% to get a somewhat fair offer for craft like Fboats.

 

Of course you have to keep in mind that the condition of the boat is everything, and this includes the trailer on an Fboat. I just looked at an F24 and the owner had removed the rusted out breaks from the trailer. Later in the week I saw a Telstar T2 that had just had new pads put on its breaks. The Telstar had a nice chart plotter with cards for most of the places I will be sailing.

 

Even almost OD boats like Fboats usually have enough differences that it is not easy to come up with a one size fits all price.

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