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muppet

North 3Di

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Looking for feedback on this kit. Has anyone had extended experience with them? Are they holding their shape and not delaminating?

 

Cheers.

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Great product if cut and finished correctly.... In my opinion the sails are only as good as the designers.

 

They had problems with them early on, but they have been more solid now.

 

I used to work at norths and I would make sure you get them made in a loft who do grand prix sails, the loft I worked at were pretty poor with how they treated them on the floor. Sailmakers are not often sailors, bad combination! One thing which the sailmakers should be aware of is not to use acitone on them and also use as little stitching as possible.

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we found the best way to repair 3di was to use sikaflex. (you can make a mean wallet out of the stuff as well)

from what i've heard you may have to upgrade halyards because the sail is so stiff the load is transferred to the boat

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we found the best way to repair 3di was to use sikaflex. (you can make a mean wallet out of the stuff as well)

from what i've heard you may have to upgrade halyards because the sail is so stiff the load is transferred to the boat

 

 

Yeah Sikaflex is ideal, all the volvo guys are doing it; especially camper cough cough cough

 

I am intrigued by the wallet?!!? photo please

 

As for the loading, I had to replace clew and tack rings because there were not up to the job. I had to do this three times on one sail, so go titanium..... saves money in the future. (depends on boat)

 

As for the rig load and load on all other boat gear, it would need consideration. The sails may be x% more but the cost of a damaged boat because of them would be pretty irritating. I doubt Norths will help ;)

 

What boat are they for?

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ditto on the loading on your gear. sheets, rings, halyards, clips, mast and rigging need to be upto the task, there are a few cases of boats putting the 3DI sails on and then the gear not handling the loads too well.

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ditto on the loading on your gear. sheets, rings, halyards, clips, mast and rigging need to be upto the task, there are a few cases of boats putting the 3DI sails on and then the gear not handling the loads too well.

 

Obvious point, but it very much depends on boat size, as loads on a TP are so much more than on a 35 footer.

 

We had 3Di as a no 2 jib on a 30 footer and were very impressed at the extra power/acceleration in any puffs, and although their ability to keep their shape in wind velocity changes makes your jib trimmer lazy (as they need little re-trimming), it means there's less movement on and off the rail, so better sailing upwind as a result.

 

We upgraded our jib car purchase and tack fitting, but halyard shackle and jammers remained as is, and nothing broke in the time we used them, even though one race was 18-25 kts upwind into 2m seas.

 

The fabric also semed pretty robust, and whilst we are all used to laminate type sails loking a bit tired or patched after a year of racing, I think these will last longer.

 

I would buy again.

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We have a full set on one of the boats I race on and they have done well for us.

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How does it like being bunched up on the foredeck. I sail on a 52 footer which is having a heavy 1 (155%) built for this season and I'm wondering what that mess of sail will be like.

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How does it like being bunched up on the foredeck. I sail on a 52 footer which is having a heavy 1 (155%) built for this season and I'm wondering what that mess of sail will be like.

 

not too much different than the 3DLs

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How does it like being bunched up on the foredeck. I sail on a 52 footer which is having a heavy 1 (155%) built for this season and I'm wondering what that mess of sail will be like.

 

not too much different than the 3DLs

 

 

Dont bunch up any sail if possible..... drop and tidy,..... you can put in a rough flake easily enough....

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we found the best way to repair 3di was to use sikaflex. (you can make a mean wallet out of the stuff as well)

from what i've heard you may have to upgrade halyards because the sail is so stiff the load is transferred to the boat

 

 

Yeah Sikaflex is ideal, all the volvo guys are doing it; especially camper cough cough cough

 

I am intrigued by the wallet?!!? photo please

 

As for the loading, I had to replace clew and tack rings because there were not up to the job. I had to do this three times on one sail, so go titanium..... saves money in the future. (depends on boat)

 

As for the rig load and load on all other boat gear, it would need consideration. The sails may be x% more but the cost of a damaged boat because of them would be pretty irritating. I doubt Norths will help ;)

 

What boat are they for?

 

 

Titanium not always the answer.

 

Halyard pulled straight through the new titanium main headboard after a day & a bit of 15- 25 on the nose, Sail was still fine & rehoused on a couple of masthead kite halyards through the alternative hole.

 

This was on a 43 footer.

 

TUBBY

 

 

 

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we found the best way to repair 3di was to use sikaflex. (you can make a mean wallet out of the stuff as well)

from what i've heard you may have to upgrade halyards because the sail is so stiff the load is transferred to the boat

 

 

Yeah Sikaflex is ideal, all the volvo guys are doing it; especially camper cough cough cough

 

I am intrigued by the wallet?!!? photo please

 

As for the loading, I had to replace clew and tack rings because there were not up to the job. I had to do this three times on one sail, so go titanium..... saves money in the future. (depends on boat)

 

As for the rig load and load on all other boat gear, it would need consideration. The sails may be x% more but the cost of a damaged boat because of them would be pretty irritating. I doubt Norths will help ;)

 

What boat are they for?

 

 

Titanium not always the answer.

 

Halyard pulled straight through the new titanium main headboard after a day & a bit of 15- 25 on the nose, Sail was still fine & rehoused on a couple of masthead kite halyards through the alternative hole.

 

This was on a 43 footer.

 

TUBBY

 

 

 

 

Wow a titanium headboard..... what sail and what boat? that is something which is pretty random.... Was is a titanium ring? Head boards on swan45, corel 45s and other boats are just ally...

 

My point was more about tack rings and clew rings though.

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I've seen carbon headboards and carbon clew boards go on a wally 80 3dl sails before, the flew board was for a self tacking jib. Pretty surprised the titanium failed, it must have been A) underspecced or B) faulty material, I mean after all titanium is scientifically proven to be the toughest metal on earth

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I've seen carbon headboards and carbon clew boards go on a wally 80 3dl sails before, the flew board was for a self tacking jib. Pretty surprised the titanium failed, it must have been A) underspecced or B) faulty material, I mean after all titanium is scientifically proven to be the toughest metal on earth

 

That's it, inconel hardware for everyone

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How does it like being bunched up on the foredeck. I sail on a 52 footer which is having a heavy 1 (155%) built for this season and I'm wondering what that mess of sail will be like.

 

Talk to M__1, he has perspective on these things.

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they're good bits of kit, you don't get delamination as there is no film, the only thing is that they can crack a little bit after alot of use but other wise last much better than film sails. Their lack of stretch is there only problem for some boats as the boat breaks rather than the sail

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The Soto40 boys in South America are mostly running 3Di. But the boat NOT using them (using Q sails) seems to be going quicker. LongTim probably has more info and perspective on this.

 

I know one of the better Melges 32 teams didn't think they were as fast as the 3DL and left them on the dock at the San Fran worlds. But they've probably got the designs better sorted and use of the 3Di better dialled in since then. Plenty of 32's seem to be using 3Di jibs, but less have gone for 3Di main. Anyone in Miami this weekend confirm the latest vibe for using 3Di on the Melges 32?

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The Soto40 boys in South America are mostly running 3Di. But the boat NOT using them (using Q sails) seems to be going quicker. LongTim probably has more info and perspective on this.

 

I know one of the better Melges 32 teams didn't think they were as fast as the 3DL and left them on the dock at the San Fran worlds. But they've probably got the designs better sorted and use of the 3Di better dialled in since then. Plenty of 32's seem to be using 3Di jibs, but less have gone for 3Di main. Anyone in Miami this weekend confirm the latest vibe for using 3Di on the Melges 32?

 

From the water today: in general most of the boats had a 3Di sail up, either main or jib. Probably 5 or 6 with both 3Di main and Jib. Conditions were light borderline medium though , might see more 3Di jibs as the breeze increases

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one of the M/F30's had a 3di main up this year and was considerably faster than last year, but there are a number of factors that can contribute to that.

 

 

in my limited experience they are a bit tougher to deal with on the fordeck. I was working with non overlapping sails, but its tough to work with. It doesnt like to stack into the pulpit like 3dl does and doesnt like to get bunched up. its definitely not as easy to force as 3dl.

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one of the M/F30's had a 3di main up this year and was considerably faster than last year, but there are a number of factors that can contribute to that.

 

 

in my limited experience they are a bit tougher to deal with on the fordeck. I was working with non overlapping sails, but its tough to work with. It doesnt like to stack into the pulpit like 3dl does and doesnt like to get bunched up. its definitely not as easy to force as 3dl.

 

 

I disagree, I think the 3DI is better to work with on the foredeck.... The sail is not shiney and slippery like a 3DL and is easier to grab hold of. As for storing during the downwind legs, its easy you just need to do exactly the same as the 3DL and tidy it up when the time is right...

 

I think it is also fair to say that the product has now been proven as a good one, look at all the gear that use them now...... RC44s, Melges, TPs, Maxis (Speedboat has a 3DI Main £££££), Soto 40s. I have even seen boats like 6Mtrs with the new gear. Also another valid point is that if you get caught out with the wrong sail up, you stand a much better chance of this not being so much of a problem...... everyone has been there and its a pain in the ass!

 

Like most things in life, sails have developed but need to be looked after in an ever so slightly different way.

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we found the best way to repair 3di was to use sikaflex. (you can make a mean wallet out of the stuff as well)

from what i've heard you may have to upgrade halyards because the sail is so stiff the load is transferred to the boat

 

 

Yeah Sikaflex is ideal, all the volvo guys are doing it; especially camper cough cough cough

 

I am intrigued by the wallet?!!? photo please

 

As for the loading, I had to replace clew and tack rings because there were not up to the job. I had to do this three times on one sail, so go titanium..... saves money in the future. (depends on boat)

 

As for the rig load and load on all other boat gear, it would need consideration. The sails may be x% more but the cost of a damaged boat because of them would be pretty irritating. I doubt Norths will help ;)

 

What boat are they for?

 

 

Titanium not always the answer.

 

Halyard pulled straight through the new titanium main headboard after a day & a bit of 15- 25 on the nose, Sail was still fine & rehoused on a couple of masthead kite halyards through the alternative hole.

 

This was on a 43 footer.

 

TUBBY

 

 

 

 

Wow a titanium headboard..... what sail and what boat? that is something which is pretty random.... Was is a titanium ring? Head boards on swan45, corel 45s and other boats are just ally...

 

My point was more about tack rings and clew rings though.

 

 

Sorry brain not in gear. too many drinks post race & too late at night posting.

 

It was of course a CARBON Headboard!!!

 

Think fool BEFORE typing!

 

TUBBY

 

 

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Just asking, because I want to know, no axe to grind:

 

Anyone got any carbon rash from them, once they have been used for a while?

 

Thanks

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Just asking, because I want to know, no axe to grind:

 

Anyone got any carbon rash from them, once they have been used for a while?

 

Thanks

 

 

Man up!!! lol

 

 

no not that I have heard of or had any experience with.... Besides if it is that bad it needs replacing...

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How does it like being bunched up on the foredeck. I sail on a 52 footer which is having a heavy 1 (155%) built for this season and I'm wondering what that mess of sail will be like.

 

what a complete utter waste of money. I would have bought a new tactician..... B)

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I think one comes with the package.

 

I find all the comments interesting. Sounds like Sikaflex should be added to the ditty bag.

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I think one comes with the package.

 

I find all the comments interesting. Sounds like Sikaflex should be added to the ditty bag.

 

 

A repair on a 3DI is easy enough, I think we are all looking way too much into it.

 

 

Sikaflex or any polyurethane adhesive is just used to manufacture the sail... and yes or course repair.

 

 

In fairness, I think it is tougher to repair a 3DL properly. If a sail is broken badly as in torn it is going to be very unlikely that a repair will ever be good.

 

 

3DI is awesome and we should not be scared of development, especially when it has been developed!

 

 

PS I am not a north guy, I cant stand the company... but they do have a good product...

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one of the M/F30's had a 3di main up this year and was considerably faster than last year, but there are a number of factors that can contribute to that.

 

 

in my limited experience they are a bit tougher to deal with on the fordeck. I was working with non overlapping sails, but its tough to work with. It doesnt like to stack into the pulpit like 3dl does and doesnt like to get bunched up. its definitely not as easy to force as 3dl.

 

 

I disagree, I think the 3DI is better to work with on the foredeck.... The sail is not shiney and slippery like a 3DL and is easier to grab hold of. As for storing during the downwind legs, its easy you just need to do exactly the same as the 3DL and tidy it up when the time is right...

 

I think it is also fair to say that the product has now been proven as a good one, look at all the gear that use them now...... RC44s, Melges, TPs, Maxis (Speedboat has a 3DI Main £££££), Soto 40s. I have even seen boats like 6Mtrs with the new gear. Also another valid point is that if you get caught out with the wrong sail up, you stand a much better chance of this not being so much of a problem...... everyone has been there and its a pain in the ass!

 

Like most things in life, sails have developed but need to be looked after in an ever so slightly different way.

 

i thought it was tougher since you couldnt realy have a bunch of real small flakes as you just pushed it straight down into the pulpit, it wants to be sort of flaked. i dunno, dropping it at a high AWA angle while its blowing, it was more difficult to work with than i think 3dl is. but, that was just my one experience with it.

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one of the M/F30's had a 3di main up this year and was considerably faster than last year, but there are a number of factors that can contribute to that.

 

 

in my limited experience they are a bit tougher to deal with on the fordeck. I was working with non overlapping sails, but its tough to work with. It doesnt like to stack into the pulpit like 3dl does and doesnt like to get bunched up. its definitely not as easy to force as 3dl.

 

 

I disagree, I think the 3DI is better to work with on the foredeck.... The sail is not shiney and slippery like a 3DL and is easier to grab hold of. As for storing during the downwind legs, its easy you just need to do exactly the same as the 3DL and tidy it up when the time is right...

 

I think it is also fair to say that the product has now been proven as a good one, look at all the gear that use them now...... RC44s, Melges, TPs, Maxis (Speedboat has a 3DI Main £££££), Soto 40s. I have even seen boats like 6Mtrs with the new gear. Also another valid point is that if you get caught out with the wrong sail up, you stand a much better chance of this not being so much of a problem...... everyone has been there and its a pain in the ass!

 

Like most things in life, sails have developed but need to be looked after in an ever so slightly different way.

 

i thought it was tougher since you couldnt realy have a bunch of real small flakes as you just pushed it straight down into the pulpit, it wants to be sort of flaked. i dunno, dropping it at a high AWA angle while its blowing, it was more difficult to work with than i think 3dl is. but, that was just my one experience with it.

 

That is fair enough, I never found it a problem. But a high AWA while its blowing, anyone will struggle... Grab it, pull it into the boat and tidy, job done!

 

I do see your point though, but this is something the crew have to develop to deal with in order to have the good gear to get you your boat speed.....

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I think one comes with the package.

 

I find all the comments interesting. Sounds like Sikaflex should be added to the ditty bag.

 

 

A repair on a 3DI is easy enough, I think we are all looking way too much into it.

 

 

Sikaflex or any polyurethane adhesive is just used to manufacture the sail... and yes or course repair.

 

 

In fairness, I think it is tougher to repair a 3DL properly. If a sail is broken badly as in torn it is going to be very unlikely that a repair will ever be good.

 

 

3DI is awesome and we should not be scared of development, especially when it has been developed!

 

 

PS I am not a north guy, I cant stand the company... but they do have a good product...

 

 

The benefit with 3DI, due to the orthogonal (i think thats right) construction method, is that damage doesn't grow as easily as a tear does in other materials. As a result the repair is normally small and able to be repaired to aan 'as new' sstandard. Obviously the experience with the Camper J2 splitting in half doesn't fit into this category but, apart from numerous green waves, I haven't seen the cause of the failure reported.

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I think one comes with the package.

 

I find all the comments interesting. Sounds like Sikaflex should be added to the ditty bag.

 

 

A repair on a 3DI is easy enough, I think we are all looking way too much into it.

 

 

Sikaflex or any polyurethane adhesive is just used to manufacture the sail... and yes or course repair.

 

 

In fairness, I think it is tougher to repair a 3DL properly. If a sail is broken badly as in torn it is going to be very unlikely that a repair will ever be good.

 

 

3DI is awesome and we should not be scared of development, especially when it has been developed!

 

 

PS I am not a north guy, I cant stand the company... but they do have a good product...

 

 

The benefit with 3DI, due to the orthogonal (i think thats right) construction method, is that damage doesn't grow as easily as a tear does in other materials. As a result the repair is normally small and able to be repaired to aan 'as new' sstandard. Obviously the experience with the Camper J2 splitting in half doesn't fit into this category but, apart from numerous green waves, I haven't seen the cause of the failure reported.

 

I would agree with that, either yes you get a small tear which is easily repaired.

 

But i think it has been seen often enough that some 3DI sails have had huge faliures.... this is not to say that its been caused by the sail material, but it is probably not helped.

 

I suppose any sail without seems 3DL or 3DI will have the same problem, if it goes bad it goes really bad....

 

Any thoughts?

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I think one comes with the package.

 

I find all the comments interesting. Sounds like Sikaflex should be added to the ditty bag.

 

 

A repair on a 3DI is easy enough, I think we are all looking way too much into it.

 

 

Sikaflex or any polyurethane adhesive is just used to manufacture the sail... and yes or course repair.

 

 

In fairness, I think it is tougher to repair a 3DL properly. If a sail is broken badly as in torn it is going to be very unlikely that a repair will ever be good.

 

 

3DI is awesome and we should not be scared of development, especially when it has been developed!

 

 

PS I am not a north guy, I cant stand the company... but they do have a good product...

 

 

The benefit with 3DI, due to the orthogonal (i think thats right) construction method, is that damage doesn't grow as easily as a tear does in other materials. As a result the repair is normally small and able to be repaired to aan 'as new' sstandard. Obviously the experience with the Camper J2 splitting in half doesn't fit into this category but, apart from numerous green waves, I haven't seen the cause of the failure reported.

 

Case in point below :o For those not in the know, that is where the 3Di-Sikaflex reference originated.

post-33020-058934300 1330739880_thumb.jpg

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Obviously the experience with the Camper J2 splitting in half doesn't fit into this category but, apart from numerous green waves, I haven't seen the cause of the failure reported.

 

 

3di are made from panels that are laid up on a flat surface and then transferred to the 3d mold and the panel edges are joined with (glued) scarf joints. Those scarf joints can (and have) zipper apart if there is any imperfection or contaminant. North has successfully repaired a few of these failures using 3M 5200.

 

That sort of failure is not very possible in 3DL, with its continuous strings.

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Obviously the experience with the Camper J2 splitting in half doesn't fit into this category but, apart from numerous green waves, I haven't seen the cause of the failure reported.

 

 

3di are made from panels that are laid up on a flat surface and then transferred to the 3d mold and the panel edges are joined with (glued) scarf joints. Those scarf joints can (and have) zipper apart if there is any imperfection or contaminant. North has successfully repaired a few of these failures using 3M 5200.

 

That sort of failure is not very possible in 3DL, with its continuous strings.

 

Knowing you to be a man of pretty serious intent, i have to believe what you say. But really, they are fixing the sail with 5200? What's that say about the glue they are using initially?

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Knowing you to be a man of pretty serious intent, i have to believe what you say. But really, they are fixing the sail with 5200? What's that say about the glue they are using initially?

 

Just to be clear, I do not know that's how Camper fixed their sail (I actually guess they used a hempel product), but I do know North has fixed a few that way. Surprisingly 5200, properly applied to a prepped surface has an extremely high bond strength. I am sure the psi is somewhere on the web, but North tested a dozen different possible repair glues and 5200 came out very high - especially in humid environments (like on board sail repairs). They used to have an article on their website about the repair glue tests but I can't find it now.. . . .edit here is a story that mentions the testing and results

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Obviously the experience with the Camper J2 splitting in half doesn't fit into this category but, apart from numerous green waves, I haven't seen the cause of the failure reported.

 

 

3di are made from panels that are laid up on a flat surface and then transferred to the 3d mold and the panel edges are joined with (glued) scarf joints. Those scarf joints can (and have) zipper apart if there is any imperfection or contaminant. North has successfully repaired a few of these failures using 3M 5200.

 

That sort of failure is not very possible in 3DL, with its continuous strings.

 

 

3M 5200 is the stuff, but I've only used it for patching repairs. Haven't seen any sails 'zipping apart' though - was this an early issue?

 

 

Yes, the Camper J2 and Loki main are extreme failures. I don't know enough about either to comment.

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How quickly does 5200 fast cure, get to full strengthor at least usable strength??

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How quickly does 5200 fast cure, get to full strengthor at least usable strength??

 

It's 'tack free' in 1 hr, and 'fully cured' in 24hrs (faster in the tropics).

 

So it depends how you are using it. It's usable within 1hr, if it's just a patch which is not loaded, or if you can add stitching which will clamp and hold the load for the first 24 hours.

 

But if you expect the bond to hold structural load from the minute you hoist it, then you probably need to clamp and cure for at least 12 hrs.

 

There are some other products with faster cure time, but there are trade-offs - mostly they depend on a more perfect environment..

 

Haven't seen any sails 'zipping apart' though - was this an early issue?

 

There were early corner issues, which (as I understand it) were tape design problems, that seem to have mostly been sorted out. The panel bond issue is essentially integral to the manufacturing process, until they build tape laying robots that can run continuous tapes right on the mold (rather than on a flat table as now). For two reasons: First, when a sail is overloaded, beyond design loads, something is going to break, and that is very likely to be these panel bond lines, as the panels themselves are very tough. Second, structural scarf bond lines are very sensitive to QA. Just as an example, when aerospace guys do these sort of structural scarf joins they do then in a near clean room environment. But North Minden is a factory/sail loft and not a clean room. There are going to be defects (there are in all manufacturing processes) and probably they will show up in these loaded bond lines.

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Obviously the experience with the Camper J2 splitting in half doesn't fit into this category but, apart from numerous green waves, I haven't seen the cause of the failure reported.

 

 

3di are made from panels that are laid up on a flat surface and then transferred to the 3d mold and the panel edges are joined with (glued) scarf joints. Those scarf joints can (and have) zipper apart if there is any imperfection or contaminant. North has successfully repaired a few of these failures using 3M 5200.

 

That sort of failure is not very possible in 3DL, with its continuous strings.

 

 

That is great to know how they repair the sails now, very interesting! I cant imagine that camper had enough gear to clean the sail like you would be able to in a loft to get a great bond, i reckon they nailed it together to get them to Auckland.... then the boys will do a decent repair there. Or can they get a new sail? Sorry i am not clued up on replacement sail rules in the Volvo.

 

As for this sort of faliure not happening in 3DL, I do disagree.... the faliure would be different but the result could be the same, a tear could easily follow a individual strand... A light lib for example without the kevlar behind it too would easily tear apart. I think the J109s had a problem with their light jibs for a few seasons because of this? But certainly on the Swan45 and Swan42 I have seen jibs fail horizontally.

 

There is so much room for all kinds of error, user error is probably the most problematic...

 

That Loki picture is very very old, that was quite an origional 3DI, much development has gone into it since then and I have no doubt that that was a warranty job...... Id hope so

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As for this sort of faliure not happening in 3DL, I do disagree.... the faliure would be different but the result could be the same, a tear could easily follow a individual strand... A light lib for example without the kevlar behind it too would easily tear apart. I think the J109s had a problem with their light jibs for a few seasons because of this?

 

OK, If the 3DL string design had all or mostly load parallel strings, then I agree it could zipper down those strings. The 3DLs I have used all had 'bias' strings, which opperated very effectively as 'rip stops' .

But certainly on the Swan45 and Swan42 I have seen jibs fail horizontally.

 

Do you have a pic? Did the strings break or pull away from the film and bunch up with the film tearing? I am having trouble seeing how you could rip across the strings, unless the sail was massively underspec or overloaded.

 

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Obviously the experience with the Camper J2 splitting in half doesn't fit into this category but, apart from numerous green waves, I haven't seen the cause of the failure reported.

 

 

3di are made from panels that are laid up on a flat surface and then transferred to the 3d mold and the panel edges are joined with (glued) scarf joints. Those scarf joints can (and have) zipper apart if there is any imperfection or contaminant. North has successfully repaired a few of these failures using 3M 5200.

 

That sort of failure is not very possible in 3DL, with its continuous strings.

 

 

That is great to know how they repair the sails now, very interesting! I cant imagine that camper had enough gear to clean the sail like you would be able to in a loft to get a great bond, i reckon they nailed it together to get them to Auckland.... then the boys will do a decent repair there. Or can they get a new sail? Sorry i am not clued up on replacement sail rules in the Volvo.

 

As for this sort of faliure not happening in 3DL, I do disagree.... the faliure would be different but the result could be the same, a tear could easily follow a individual strand... A light lib for example without the kevlar behind it too would easily tear apart. I think the J109s had a problem with their light jibs for a few seasons because of this? But certainly on the Swan45 and Swan42 I have seen jibs fail horizontally.

 

There is so much room for all kinds of error, user error is probably the most problematic...

 

That Loki picture is very very old, that was quite an origional 3DI, much development has gone into it since then and I have no doubt that that was a warranty job...... Id hope so

 

 

The Loki pic is from Hamilton Island Race Week, August 2011. I wouldn't call that very very old!

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Obviously the experience with the Camper J2 splitting in half doesn't fit into this category but, apart from numerous green waves, I haven't seen the cause of the failure reported.

 

 

3di are made from panels that are laid up on a flat surface and then transferred to the 3d mold and the panel edges are joined with (glued) scarf joints. Those scarf joints can (and have) zipper apart if there is any imperfection or contaminant. North has successfully repaired a few of these failures using 3M 5200.

 

That sort of failure is not very possible in 3DL, with its continuous strings.

 

 

That Loki picture is very very old, that was quite an origional 3DI, much development has gone into it since then and I have no doubt that that was a warranty job...... Id hope so

 

Fucking up a gybe and jamming a spreader through the sail would hardly be grounds for a warranty job I would have thought...

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As for this sort of faliure not happening in 3DL, I do disagree.... the faliure would be different but the result could be the same, a tear could easily follow a individual strand... A light lib for example without the kevlar behind it too would easily tear apart. I think the J109s had a problem with their light jibs for a few seasons because of this?

 

OK, If the 3DL string design had all or mostly load parallel strings, then I agree it could zipper down those strings. The 3DLs I have used all had 'bias' strings, which opperated very effectively as 'rip stops' .

But certainly on the Swan45 and Swan42 I have seen jibs fail horizontally.

 

Do you have a pic? Did the strings break or pull away from the film and bunch up with the film tearing? I am having trouble seeing how you could rip across the strings, unless the sail was massively underspec or overloaded.

 

It's common to break across the strings. Just like a piece of paper, carbon and kevlar can only take so many bend cycles before it breaks at a reduced load.

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It's common to break across the strings.

 

How common - any pics? Honest question - I am surprised to hear it stated as a common failure. I can understand carbon strings being vulnerable, but vectran strings would I think be quite resistant to that sort of fatigue failure. We had film and glue and taffeta failure but never any string failure. We had the sail stings setting in perfect shape with no membrane left - big holes in the sail that birds could fly thru but the strings still set perfectly across those holes.

 

I saw a comment that Puma also had a J2 problem - anyone know any details - similar big failure or a smaller problem?

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It's common to break across the strings.

 

How common - any pics? Honest question - I am surprised to hear it stated as a common failure. I can understand carbon strings being vulnerable, but vectran strings would I think be quite resistant to that sort of fatigue failure. We had film and glue and taffeta failure but never any string failure. We had the sail stings setting in perfect shape with no membrane left - big holes in the sail that birds could fly thru but the strings still set perfectly across those holes.

 

I saw a comment that Puma also had a J2 problem - anyone know any details - similar big failure or a smaller problem?

 

From what I remember (watched one of the boatfeed videos) they just put a stanchion through the foot.

 

HW

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It's common to break across the strings.

 

How common - any pics? Honest question - I am surprised to hear it stated as a common failure. I can understand carbon strings being vulnerable, but vectran strings would I think be quite resistant to that sort of fatigue failure. We had film and glue and taffeta failure but never any string failure. We had the sail stings setting in perfect shape with no membrane left - big holes in the sail that birds could fly thru but the strings still set perfectly across those holes.

 

I saw a comment that Puma also had a J2 problem - anyone know any details - similar big failure or a smaller problem?

 

From what I remember (watched one of the boatfeed videos) they just put a stanchion through the foot.

 

HW

 

They did put a stantion through it. What really did it in though was the tack strop broke on the sail, it unzipped up the luff and tore from luff to leach under one of the upper battens. All repaired and back up a few days later.

 

 

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It's common to break across the strings.

 

How common - any pics? Honest question - I am surprised to hear it stated as a common failure. I can understand carbon strings being vulnerable, but vectran strings would I think be quite resistant to that sort of fatigue failure. We had film and glue and taffeta failure but never any string failure. We had the sail stings setting in perfect shape with no membrane left - big holes in the sail that birds could fly thru but the strings still set perfectly across those holes.

 

I saw a comment that Puma also had a J2 problem - anyone know any details - similar big failure or a smaller problem?

 

From what I remember (watched one of the boatfeed videos) they just put a stanchion through the foot.

 

HW

 

Sounds like Puma had a very similar problem to Camper. The jib strop broke the, the J2 went up the forestay and then split under pressure just beneath the top batten.

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It's common to break across the strings.

 

How common - any pics? Honest question - I am surprised to hear it stated as a common failure. I can understand carbon strings being vulnerable, but vectran strings would I think be quite resistant to that sort of fatigue failure. We had film and glue and taffeta failure but never any string failure. We had the sail stings setting in perfect shape with no membrane left - big holes in the sail that birds could fly thru but the strings still set perfectly across those holes.

 

I saw a comment that Puma also had a J2 problem - anyone know any details - similar big failure or a smaller problem?

 

From what I remember (watched one of the boatfeed videos) they just put a stanchion through the foot.

 

HW

 

Sounds like Puma had a very similar problem to Camper. The jib strop broke the, the J2 went up the forestay and then split under pressure just beneath the top batten.

 

Video with footage of the sail going here. Look at 2:27.

 

 

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Obviously the experience with the Camper J2 splitting in half doesn't fit into this category but, apart from numerous green waves, I haven't seen the cause of the failure reported.

 

 

3di are made from panels that are laid up on a flat surface and then transferred to the 3d mold and the panel edges are joined with (glued) scarf joints. Those scarf joints can (and have) zipper apart if there is any imperfection or contaminant. North has successfully repaired a few of these failures using 3M 5200.

 

That sort of failure is not very possible in 3DL, with its continuous strings.

 

 

That Loki picture is very very old, that was quite an origional 3DI, much development has gone into it since then and I have no doubt that that was a warranty job...... Id hope so

 

Fucking up a gybe and jamming a spreader through the sail would hardly be grounds for a warranty job I would have thought...

 

Fair enough, my info was given to me while working for Norths.... Thank you both for the update, I heard a completely different story!

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Anyone had any experience with 760 construction for a 3Di jib?

 

760 is spectra/kevlar. (UHMWPE / Aramid if you want to be technical.)

780 is spectra/carbon.

 

I have 780 for a main and I'm very happy with it. I got talked into 780 for a genoa. Sailhandling for 780 is a lot more difficult and I'm thinking that it would be easier for 760. Also, 780 is so strong that giving up some of that strength for easier sail handling seems worthwhile.

 

But I haven't seen any 760 in the wild. Everything I've seen is gray 780 spectra/carbon. Anyone out there with 760 experience?

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It's common to break across the strings.

 

How common - any pics? Honest question - I am surprised to hear it stated as a common failure. I can understand carbon strings being vulnerable, but vectran strings would I think be quite resistant to that sort of fatigue failure. We had film and glue and taffeta failure but never any string failure. We had the sail stings setting in perfect shape with no membrane left - big holes in the sail that birds could fly thru but the strings still set perfectly across those holes.

 

I saw a comment that Puma also had a J2 problem - anyone know any details - similar big failure or a smaller problem?

 

From what I remember (watched one of the boatfeed videos) they just put a stanchion through the foot.

 

HW

 

Sounds like Puma had a very similar problem to Camper. The jib strop broke the, the J2 went up the forestay and then split under pressure just beneath the top batten.

 

Video with footage of the sail going here. Look at 2:27.

 

 

Great vid stubby, how's the mini campaign coming along?

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Anyone had any experience with 760 construction for a 3Di jib?

 

760 is spectra/kevlar. (UHMWPE / Aramid if you want to be technical.)

780 is spectra/carbon.

 

I have 780 for a main and I'm very happy with it. I got talked into 780 for a genoa. Sailhandling for 780 is a lot more difficult and I'm thinking that it would be easier for 760. Also, 780 is so strong that giving up some of that strength for easier sail handling seems worthwhile.

 

But I haven't seen any 760 in the wild. Everything I've seen is gray 780 spectra/carbon. Anyone out there with 760 experience?

 

All the Volvo's are 760. 760 seems to have a higher durability, with high resistance to stretch than most 3DL's. As a Genoa beats across the rig, the aramid doesn't fracture like Carbon.

 

But saying that the the RC44'S use, 780.

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We've a 780 main and 870 headsails. Both are doing well after 1/2 a season. No signs of delimitation or fracturing of any kind. The medium/heavy #1 with 870 mix and 19600 fibre count is stiff and somewhat difficult to deal with on the foredeck - it's strong as hell; but the light/medium #1 with 870 mix and 14700 fibre count is a beauty and easy to deal with all around. There's more to this than the aramid/carbon mix, you need to consider the fibre count or weight of the cloth. Difficulty changes a LOT with increases in cloth weight.

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We've been using 3Di for 3 years (2 seasons on a J/109 and now 1 season on the new J/111). Now 780 14,700 Dpi main and #2 and a 10,850 Dpi #1.

 

Besides keeping it's shape and having a wider sweet spot (all the usual marketing yada yada), I'm most impressed with the longevity. After two tough seasons with the first generation 3Di, we could hardly see any wear/tear on the laminate itself. I'm sure they will be great racing sails for the new owner for at least two years. This easily justifies the extra $.

 

Talking to the Volvo guys in Lorient (both Groupama's crew and Telefonica's sail designer), they expect 3Di to last twice as long as 3DL (or similar film laminates).

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BV, a #3 would need a higher thread count leading to the heavier/stiffer unmanageable sail I'm trying to avoid.

 

Strong doesn't even begin to describe these sails. Consequently giving up some strength for manageability seems reasonable.

 

Good to know about the Volvo use.

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Olsonist,

 

I think the North guys went overboard on the strength for my sails. But, that said, you never know when the sail is going to be too weak they (reportedly) just go "bang" and are broken; I've never seen it. No stretch means no warning. I think my sails could be MUCH lighter but the North guys are being conservative. It's not in their interest for this technology to get a reputation for blowing up while it's new. You should have a long chat about what you want with the Rep.

 

When I say our heavy #1 is a bit difficult, it means a single hander trying to flak it etc... It's fine for handling with respect to hanking it on etc... Someone mentioned "stuffing" the sail up in the bow when it's down. We simply don't do that to any sail so I've never tried. If one wants the sail on the other side of the boat I'd suggest moving it (or moving the foreguy across) rather than cramming the sail up in the bow pulpit. I always wince when I see that.

 

As to durability, everyone I talked to before ordering the suite of sails said that they would last more than twice what 3DL did. As a boat I crew on is now on her third season for 3DL and I've seen them take some pretty hard use, I am guessing I'll see at least 3 or 4 seasons out of the 3Di.

 

Finally, I'm guessing from your screen-name that you might be considering this for a #3 on an Olson 30 or 911, if so you should be able to get VERY light cloth as the boat hasn't got the stability to ever load the sail up even in the #3's wind range. Handling shouldn't be a problem. PM me if you'd like a reference on a rep to talk to in the SF Bay area.

 

BV

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Stealing said, " 3DI... has these ugly bias wrinkles that I don't dig."

 

That's bad. Bias wrinkles are usually caused by over-bending the rig, or result when the luff curve of the sail doesn't match the mast bend. Time to get a good North Sails rep on board to diagnose and fix the problem, and don't fall for "that's what they're supposed to look like" BS. Luff curve can be re-done, even if it means having a strip of cloth added to the luff and re-applying the luff tape on a new luff curve.

 

Battens could also be wrong (too soft, too stuff, not tight enough), but that's unusual. Top batten(s) need(s) to be stiff enough so it/ they can be put in with enough tension to avoid buckling wrinkles coming out of the head of the sail, without inducing too much fullness.

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Stealing said, " 3DI... has these ugly bias wrinkles that I don't dig."

 

That's bad. Bias wrinkles are usually caused by over-bending the rig, or result when the luff curve of the sail doesn't match the mast bend. Time to get a good North Sails rep on board to diagnose and fix the problem, and don't fall for "that's what they're supposed to look like" BS. Luff curve can be re-done, even if it means having a strip of cloth added to the luff and re-applying the luff tape on a new luff curve.

 

Battens could also be wrong (too soft, too stuff, not tight enough), but that's unusual. Top batten(s) need(s) to be stiff enough so it/ they can be put in with enough tension to avoid buckling wrinkles coming out of the head of the sail, without inducing too much fullness.

 

Various 3Di sails have demonstrated a dislike for being recut - gotta be careful with this.

 

Agree that the batten tension in the sail is a big deal. Sizing and installation are key in 3Di sails and the shape is very sensitive to leech batten tension.

 

Definitely get a NS guy to come out, look at your setup and see if there's anything more to get out of the sail.

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Stealing said, " 3DI... has these ugly bias wrinkles that I don't dig."

 

That's bad. Bias wrinkles are usually caused by over-bending the rig, or result when the luff curve of the sail doesn't match the mast bend. Time to get a good North Sails rep on board to diagnose and fix the problem, and don't fall for "that's what they're supposed to look like" BS. Luff curve can be re-done, even if it means having a strip of cloth added to the luff and re-applying the luff tape on a new luff curve.

 

Battens could also be wrong (too soft, too stuff, not tight enough), but that's unusual. Top batten(s) need(s) to be stiff enough so it/ they can be put in with enough tension to avoid buckling wrinkles coming out of the head of the sail, without inducing too much fullness.

 

When we first got our 3Di main it had a few wrinkles that were the results of the idiot who set up the main (me) not getting the pin lengths right on the full battens where they link to the Harken Bat Cars and the tension on the battens set right. All it took was 5 minutes in the bosun's chair to fix it so that the sail was nice and smooth. Now, it's like a solid non-stretching wing. We love it.

 

BV

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Anyone had any experience with 760 construction for a 3Di jib?

 

760 is spectra/kevlar. (UHMWPE / Aramid if you want to be technical.)

780 is spectra/carbon.

 

I have 780 for a main and I'm very happy with it. I got talked into 780 for a genoa. Sailhandling for 780 is a lot more difficult and I'm thinking that it would be easier for 760. Also, 780 is so strong that giving up some of that strength for easier sail handling seems worthwhile.

 

But I haven't seen any 760 in the wild. Everything I've seen is gray 780 spectra/carbon. Anyone out there with 760 experience?

 

All the Volvo's are 760. 760 seems to have a higher durability, with high resistance to stretch than most 3DL's. As a Genoa beats across the rig, the aramid doesn't fracture like Carbon.

 

But saying that the the RC44'S use, 780.

 

760 is used in the Volvo and IMOCA 60's due to the ban of carbon in the sails. The 3Di sails held up much better in this race than the past 3Dl's. Sail for sail, the 3Di is heavier, but better in the UV and much better shape holding

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The benefit of 3DI sails on a boat with a tin rig and / or wire rigging is somewhat reduced. Even using 3DI sails on a fiberglass boat reduces their effectiveness. Why use low stretch sails on a boat that is inherently flexible.

 

My only other thought would be don't invest in 3DI for light air sails.

 

Otherwise, I think they're a fantastic product.

 

Mex

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The benefit of 3DI sails on a boat with a tin rig and / or wire rigging is somewhat reduced. Even using 3DI sails on a fiberglass boat reduces their effectiveness. Why use low stretch sails on a boat that is inherently flexible.

 

My only other thought would be don't invest in 3DI for light air sails.

 

Otherwise, I think they're a fantastic product.

 

Mex

 

You're still going to see an improvement over other more flexible products. You could extend your logic to any other part of the boat, "Why bother with low stretch halyards, the boat is just gonna flex underneath 'em?"

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Yes, but this has been going on for awhile. My boat started life with dacron sails and wire halyards. It has progressed through kevlar, carbon and 3Di and Spectra and Dux. And I've refitted the rigging to keep up with the loads.

 

In our fleet, we've had mast turning blocks just rip right out of the mast. The bracket on this thing is pathetic. It's countersunk. The lowest hole takes all of the load and there's just not that much metal. My were bent. I've fabricated replacements and upsided the fasteners. I also went to a 2:1 main. But the boat is still gonna flex beneath and so you have to look at that too.

 

32_17.jpg

 

But I also like 3Di for the promise of durability. String sails don't last. Maybe 3Di will.

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The problem I have seen is the "Compression wrinkles" you get on all batten pockets where the Main layer of tapes join. People say "put more batten tension on and you will get rid of them"... Negative.. When you do that on a leech batten you get a huge bump/kick to windward on the inboard end and then concave section aft of that.. no pretty or fast. I have seen Full batten sails just wind up the tension to get rid of them, sure it gets rid of the wrinkles, but the leach gets so much return it is faster with less tension..

I have also seen the luff curve issues.. This is my conclusion and verified by 2 North Sails reps

 

In theory, a rigid sail that holds its shape perfectly, that is designed for a set wind range and angle is great... The problem is theory isn't always reality.. A J1 designed for a TWA of 34 and TWS of 8 knots of breeze... Fine in 8 @ 34.. Under that its to straight in the back and you cant deepen the whole sail profile while maintaining the right entry angle and camber for the situation, Get caught up-range, good luck trying to get the mid leech to stand up correctly for the twist you need.

 

It might work well on an AC72 where the the AWS and angle is accurately defined but I am not seeing the benefit on anything under 65 feet. Over 65 feet we aren't talking standard sails anyway, no matter what brand you use.

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The benefit of 3DI sails on a boat with a tin rig and / or wire rigging is somewhat reduced. Even using 3DI sails on a fiberglass boat reduces their effectiveness. Why use low stretch sails on a boat that is inherently flexible.

 

My only other thought would be don't invest in 3DI for light air sails.

 

Otherwise, I think they're a fantastic product.

 

Mex

 

You're still going to see an improvement over other more flexible products. You could extend your logic to any other part of the boat, "Why bother with low stretch halyards, the boat is just gonna flex underneath 'em?"

So, you're agreeing with me, I think.

 

I've sailed on a Beneteau 45 with a Hall Spars carbon rig (ex-Poppy of Portland) and when we were cranking up the backstay, we weren't bending the mast as much as we were bending the boat. Now, the boat was faster the the same boat with a tin rig so there was a benefit.

 

I now sail on a Cookson 50 (full carbon) with 3DI and the investment in low stretch sails has much greater return that on a Beneteau 40 with a tin rig.

 

Mex

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