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      A Few Simple Rules   05/22/2017

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reis123

Anyone know much about the designs from the board of Henry A. Scheel?

48 posts in this topic

He was the NA that developed the "Sheel Keel", but, other than this, what comprised his body of work?

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Bob will know - - -

 

was Van der Staadt his apprentice ?

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He worked all over the place. S&S for while (I think he left because it was too boring, nothing but masts). He also worked for Morgan for a while (I think he did the 46), and also did a bunch of boats for Disneyworld (including getting them built).

 

 

They published a book of his contemporary designs, I think he had a really good eye. Normally his hulls tended toward the narrow side, graceful but modern overhangs, good proportions.

 

I stole this photo from Yachtworld.

post-2611-009050900 1331260536_thumb.jpg

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A Ketch built by Royal Huisman...

post-59551-063904800 1331262304_thumb.jpg

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I believe he designed the Mystic Whaler, which is not whaler but a schooner, and which is dressed up with faux gun port paint. On the bright side, it's been a going business for quite a while.

 

post-5724-034694200 1331303183_thumb.jpg

 

I think his work for Disney included the subs for the 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea Exhibit (not gone, I believe), which were not boats at all, of course.

 

He was an experimenter of the "tow the model around the swimming pool" type.

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I believe he designed the Mystic Whaler, which is not whaler but a schooner, and which is dressed up with faux gun port paint. On the bright side, it's been a going business for quite a while.

 

post-5724-034694200 1331303183_thumb.jpg

 

I think his work for Disney included the subs for the 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea Exhibit (not gone, I believe), which were not boats at all, of course.

 

He was an experimenter of the "tow the model around the swimming pool" type.

 

So, assuming you aren't a man of means, and your profession was as a naval architect, would you turn down a paying commission from one of America's greatest entertainer's, Walt Disney?

 

 

 

 

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He worked all over the place. S&S for while (I think he left because it was too boring, nothing but masts). He also worked for Morgan for a while (I think he did the 46), and also did a bunch of boats for Disneyworld (including getting them built).

 

 

They published a book of his contemporary designs, I think he had a really good eye. Normally his hulls tended toward the narrow side, graceful but modern overhangs, good proportions.

 

I stole this photo from Yachtworld.

 

That book is one of the coolest design books because of it's size and format. It's like looking through a sheaf of design drawings, about what , 3/4 size? Not like looking through a book. Neat. Big, but light. Not hardback. It seems to invite tearing out the designs you really like, tablet style, and putting them on a wall. Thick drawing type paper. Tactile delight. Designs have an, um, relentless quality. Belongs next to Bobs book, IMHO. One of the few.

 

Paul

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So, assuming you aren't a man of means, and your profession was as a naval architect, would you turn down a paying commission from one of America's greatest entertainer's, Walt Disney?

 

Absolutely not. It might have paid better than anything else he ever did. No criticism meant. It's just sort of interesting in an ironic way.

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Henry A. Scheel worked in Germany, pre WW2 for Arthur Tiller in Berlin (1936). He was found of Bell bottom shape on powerboats. Try a few sailboats with the configuration.

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So, assuming you aren't a man of means, and your profession was as a naval architect, would you turn down a paying commission from one of America's greatest entertainer's, Walt Disney?

 

Absolutely not. It might have paid better than anything else he ever did. No criticism meant. It's just sort of interesting in an ironic way.

 

Yea, I see your point. I wonder how, while a person desiring a new commission can pick a naval architect, it likely is the very rare bird of a naval architect that can choose a client. I'd imagine it is an interesting dynamic of sorts. A real litmus test of patience, ability to educate a client as well as listen, and "interpersonal" skill, on the na's part, to convey aspects of what trade offs are concerned for the end product - a new boat.

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I always got the feeling Scheel was one of those people who didn't set his sails and turn on the autopilot, if you get the metaphor. I think he also did stints in the family textile business, moved to Europe, started a boat building company in Maine, and probably never sat still for very long. I think that probably brought an interesting perspective to his work.

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Mystic Whaler Says Mystic Whaler was designer by Chubb Crockett (I think that's V.B. Crockett) of Camden, Maine.

 

By the way there used to be a "Henry Scheel" table or room or corner in a waterfront restaurant in Camden (I've forgotten the name of the place, across the harbour from Wayfarer)......It had some pictures and a model or two on display......This was after he died in 1993...was nice. Mystic Seaport has 250 designs by Henry in their collection.

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Mystic Whaler Says Mystic Whaler was designer by Chubb Crockett (I think that's V.B. Crockett) of Camden, Maine.

 

By the way there used to be a "Henry Scheel" table or room or corner in a waterfront restaurant in Camden (I've forgotten the name of the place, across the harbour from Wayfarer)......It had some pictures and a model or two on display......This was after he died in 1993...was nice. Mystic Seaport has 250 designs by Henry in their collection.

 

Thanks. Wow, you worked in Bruce King's office...did you have any input into the Hinckley 70?

 

 

 

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Thanks. Wow, you worked in Bruce King's office...did you have any input into the Hinckley 70?

 

Sou'wester 70, yes.......

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Mystic Whaler Says Mystic Whaler was designer by Chubb Crockett (I think that's V.B. Crockett) of Camden, Maine.

 

Oops. Apologies to Mr. Crockett.

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Thanks. Wow, you worked in Bruce King's office...did you have any input into the Hinckley 70?

 

Sou'wester 70, yes.......

 

 

And Here's the story.......

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Thanks. Wow, you worked in Bruce King's office...did you have any input into the Hinckley 70?

 

Sou'wester 70, yes.......

 

 

And Here's the story.......

 

Some real sailing legends are mentioned here, great fun, and description, thanks. You've given me pause about the accommodations below decks, the SW '42 looks shippy, the SW '70 more like a Roman Palace, but, just my opinion and I certainly haven't seen all of the 70's produced. I think the Alerion 28 by TPI came out around the time you are speaking of, maybe Hinckley should have brought out the "day sailor" sooner then they did! :)

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There was an 8-page article on Scheel in the Jan/Feb 1985 issue of Woodenboat (Vol #62). It's by Jim Brown who was editor of Downeaster Magazine at the time.

 

Sheel felt that one of his best and most popular designs was the Stonington motorsailer, shown here on the right.

 

post-5724-075480800 1331425922_thumb.jpg

 

No mention of the Mystic Whaler. I wonder what I read, where I read it, and how I got confused. Not that he didn't design some big schooners, like this one.

 

post-5724-051499400 1331425992_thumb.jpg

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There was an 8-page article on Scheel in the Jan/Feb 1985 issue of Woodenboat (Vol #62). It's by Jim Brown who was editor of Downeaster Magazine at the time.

 

Sheel felt that one of his best and most popular designs was the Stonington motorsailer, shown here on the right.

 

post-5724-075480800 1331425922_thumb.jpg

 

No mention of the Mystic Whaler. I wonder what I read, where I read it, and how I got confused. Not that he didn't design some big schooners, like this one.

 

post-5724-051499400 1331425992_thumb.jpg

 

You wonder how many of these schooner designs from the 1920's - 1930's were drawn back then, let alone how many were built. I know Alden drew thirteen Malabars, and probably a few more without the Malabar name. Someone somewhere probably has an estimate of these that are still sailing, I'd imagine, not many I'd wager. Alden dominated the big ocean races with these designs in the 20's, until Stephens came along, I've read. These schooners are dinosaurs today to most people that can afford 60' + yachts, but still, what could be more graceful then coming in under sail at the end of the day on one of these schooners!

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Eventually a customer for Sou’wester 7001 came along, he was an art gallery owner from New York City and she would be called Avatar. He and his wife had very elaborate requirements for the interior, which was designed by Bruce and drawn by Chris. I thought it was horrible. Typical of Bruce it’s very formal with fluted columns everywhere, including the steering binnacle. There were specific requirements for spaces to display various fabulously valuable pieces of art, such as a Picasso plate.

 

On a boat? Insuring it must have caused some interesting conversations.

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Thanks. Wow, you worked in Bruce King's office...did you have any input into the Hinckley 70?

 

Sou'wester 70, yes.......

 

 

And Here's the story.......

 

Some real sailing legends are mentioned here, great fun, and description, thanks. You've given me pause about the accommodations below decks, the SW '42 looks shippy, the SW '70 more like a Roman Palace, but, just my opinion and I certainly haven't seen all of the 70's produced. I think the Alerion 28 by TPI came out around the time you are speaking of, maybe Hinckley should have brought out the "day sailor" sooner then they did! smile.gif

 

Did a search. Here's reis's thing in the Hinckley 42 thread..

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Thanks. Wow, you worked in Bruce King's office...did you have any input into the Hinckley 70?

 

Sou'wester 70, yes.......

 

 

And Here's the story.......

 

Some real sailing legends are mentioned here, great fun, and description, thanks. You've given me pause about the accommodations below decks, the SW '42 looks shippy, the SW '70 more like a Roman Palace, but, just my opinion and I certainly haven't seen all of the 70's produced. I think the Alerion 28 by TPI came out around the time you are speaking of, maybe Hinckley should have brought out the "day sailor" sooner then they did! smile.gif

 

Did a search. Here's reis's thing.

 

LOL, you guys have an unhealthy and unsure fixation upon me, but no matter, you guys need a fixation to pass the days, apparently...

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I met Mr. Scheel once. He was a nice gentleman and a very skilled designer. He could do it all.

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I met Mr. Scheel once. He was a nice gentleman and a very skilled designer. He could do it all.

 

I asked this about a Royal Huisman build now on the market, it seems a terrific boat, a schooner, as I recall.

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I asked this about a Royal Huisman build now on the market, it seems a terrific boat, a schooner, as I recall.

 

Is it your intention to place a contract on it?

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Bob, please send bmiller to his room.

 

I was wondering about something.

 

The patent on the Scheel Keel.

 

1978. You get 20 years, right? So that has been fair game for some time now?

 

Bolger was impressed by the ability of an end plate on a rudder to make a shoal rudder effective. His explanation was basically that if you can stop the flow from spilling around the bottom of the rudder, you force it along the rudder, making the rudder effective.

 

I'd think the same would apply to keels.

 

The big builders usually offer a fin and a wing if they have a shoal option, but people don't like wings for various reasons. If they're buying a shoal draft sailboat, it's because they're in a place where inches matter.

 

So why don't we see Scheel Keels on more boats?

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License fees to the Henry Scheel estate and designers using bulbs of their own design.

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License fees to the Scheel estates and designers using bulbs of their own design.

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I think if you want to reduce draft and at the same time keep your VCG down wings work better than a Scheel keel. The Scheel keel has vestigial wings, kinda, sorta but there is not the aspect ratio to them to make those edges really work like a real wing. In the end the Scheel keel is just a lump with a lot of shape that lowers VCG. It may in some minute way improve the apparent aspect ratio of the fin through some endplating effect and that might help offset the loss of clear span that the lump takes up. It was a good idea but we now know there are better ways to do it.

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Where's Reis?

 

I have a contract on him...............................by him........................dont ask.

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I think if you want to reduce draft and at the same time keep your VCG down wings work better than a Scheel keel. The Scheel keel has vestigial wings, kinda, sorta but there is not the aspect ratio to them to make those edges really work like a real wing. In the end the Scheel keel is just a lump with a lot of shape that lowers VCG. It may in some minute way improve the apparent aspect ratio of the fin through some endplating effect and that might help offset the loss of clear span that the lump takes up. It was a good idea but we now know there are better ways to do it.

 

I have seen one Scheel Keel in person, on a Com-Pac 35. I'm not even sure I'd call them vestigal wings. More like little bumps.

 

By contrast, the wings on Benehuntalinas look bulky to me.

 

That's what had me wondering. They just look like a lot to drag through the water. The relatively unobtrusive Scheel Keel seems like less to drag around.

 

So is it your opinion that the Com-Pac 35, for example, could do better with the same draft and/or do as well with less draft using a wing?

 

The other thing about wings is, people think they are like giant magnets that will stick to the bottom if they contact it. Heeling to get off doesn't work. Of course, this also means that if you sail aground while heeling, you can drop sails and float level, but few mention that aspect. Basically, some are scared to death of running a wing keel aground. Something more conventional, but with similar performance, would make them happy.

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I think the phrase is, 'no substitute for draft'.

 

As for wing keels, I will happily admit to running aground several times. In our case, it's been the silting muck of the Mississippi River. Other boats have also encountered this stuff. Wing keels get stuck. Bad. A friend of mine calls them 'danforth keels'.

 

Lots of gimicky things have been tried on keels it seems. But even for a knucklehead like me, I think the bottom line is that water is water. Properties of water haven't changed for billions of years. The parameters of an appendage on a sailboat moving through the water are pretty narrow. What really happens in that narrow band of 0 - 10 mph? There are solid characteristics established of foil shapes at various angles of attack through a medium. Plenty of experiments have been done with modifications of foil shapes, depth of the appendage, cord length, etc. All of the evidence concludes that no mater what the shape, a short, stubby keel will not provide the same kind of performance as a deep, high aspect keel.

 

Is that good or bad? I think that's the problem. Folks think a shoal keel like a Scheel keel is 'bad' and a 9' fin keel is 'good'. Just depends on what you're after. Would you cry if you raced a 35' Compac against a J22 and got your ass handed to you? If so then the problem isn't a bad keel, it's poor expectations. The only real way to improve a short stubby shoal keel is to perhaps put a swing keel or daggerboard in it. But that's a whole 'nother can o' worms. Not sure how much wings help on a small-ish boat other than perhaps adding ballast. My understanding is that they keep down the tip vortexes (which induces drag) but that's only an issue at high speeds, isn't it?

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Having owned a Capri 22WK, and being the current owner of a boat with the infamous Hunter bulb-wing keel (see below), I have opinions. Also a little experience.

 

The only point of sail on which deep draft is a huge benefit is hard on the wind. If you crack off even as little as 10 degrees, the loads are the keel are much reduced. I race against a C&C 25, giving him about 30 sec/mile. He beats me up wind (he's a better sailor than I am) but I walk away from him on a close reach. I suspect one reason the designers at Hunter were willing to give my boat a lot of beam and a pretty wide staying base was they knew the keel would frustrate trying to point high.

 

The shoal draft is also big handicap beating in rough water. There are places (e.g. Charlotte harbor) where shallow water seems to pile up in waves in a moderate breeze. The wings would be more of a handicap there than where I sail in WLIS. Here we only get waves in easterlies, or in actually breezy conditions.

 

It's also true that keels with a long span and very short chord, i.e. deep and slender, present problems too, because they lose lift quickly as the boat speed drops. For cruising boats, there is a happy middle ground.

 

I think there is a length/disp ratio below which wings don't make much sense. The extra drag is not as big a factor in a heavy boat with lots of drag from the hull. For a light boat, it matters more. I think even the Capri 22 is below the limit from a racing performance point of view though its a great boat for daysailing.

 

post-5724-0-17998900-1350308083_thumb.jpg

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If I remember correctly the Cherubini 48' schooners have Scheel Keels. They are lovely looking boats, but they go sideways like a drunk towards a bar.

 

There are MUCH better solutions to shoal draft. My favorite is a centerboard that is housed in the fixed keel, below the cabin.

 

BV

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The reason Scheel keels disappeared is that it was a bad idea. The shape increased drag and reduced lift, so it is actually worse than a standard fin of the same depth. VCG is a bit lower so stability is a little better than a standard fin of that depth. Even small wings (short span/cord) work much better.

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Beau, that's what my little catboat has and it's a good answer but moving parts have a lot of vulnerabilities.

 

Tad, worse than a fin without bumps? DOH!

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Tom,

 

Henry's claim was that the shape increased lift, it did not.

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Tom,

 

Henry's claim was that the shape increased lift, it did not.

 

Tad, that certainly fits with my experience with the Cherubini designs that used it. Sideways was a big factor in sailing them. BV

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If I remember correctly the Cherubini 48' schooners have Scheel Keels. They are lovely looking boats, but they go sideways like a drunk towards a bar.

 

There are MUCH better solutions to shoal draft. My favorite is a centerboard that is housed in the fixed keel, below the cabin.

 

BV

 

Joe Adams in Oz designed the Adams 13 for himself, long waterline, narrow beam 43' 13000lb cruiser.

Draws under 4' with a lead stub keel and a vertical unballasted centreboard with a trunk that goes right through the main cabin and opens above the cabin roof.

Very popular here both as a long distance and a shoal draft cruiser, you just use a halyard to pull the board out of its slot if you want to fix it or clean it.

Unfortunately Joe was pretty short, so I bought his 36 footer instead ....

 

Sad news, Joe passed away today.

Story on SA

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If I remember correctly the Cherubini 48' schooners have Scheel Keels. They are lovely looking boats, but they go sideways like a drunk towards a bar.

 

There are MUCH better solutions to shoal draft. My favorite is a centerboard that is housed in the fixed keel, below the cabin.

 

BV

 

Joe Adams in Oz designed the Adams 13 for himself, long waterline, narrow beam 43' 13000lb cruiser.

Draws under 4' with a lead stub keel and a vertical unballasted centreboard with a trunk that goes right through the main cabin and opens above the cabin roof.

Very popular here both as a long distance and a shoal draft cruiser, you just use a halyard to pull the board out of its slot if you want to fix it or clean it.

Unfortunately Joe was pretty short, so I bought his 36 footer instead ....

 

Sad news, Joe passed away today.

Story on SA

 

Might be splitting hairs, but what you described is a dagger board, not a centreboard. Dagger boards are ideal from a functional standpoint but the trunk you mention is a real downer for some folks. The biggest problem with centerboards is the lifting mechanism as the centerboard (aka 'swing keel') is usually lifted with a cable of some kind. Jackdaw posted a pic of a Bendytoi that had a mechanical lifting mechanism that seemed less prone to failure.

 

RIP Joe

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Tom,

 

Henry's claim was that the shape increased lift, it did not.

 

Tad, that certainly fits with my experience with the Cherubini designs that used it. Sideways was a big factor in sailing them. BV

 

In the 1980's Prof. Gerritsma and others ran a series of tank tests on a bunch of keel concepts at the Delft University of Technology. There were at least two seperate studies and papers published. All keels were fitted to the same hull and run with the same VCG (this was trying to isolate the keel's effects but not reflecting reality). The plain deep fin (Petersen) and deep elliptical(mouse ear) fin were best on a triagular course(no surprise). The much shallower upside down wing (Miller) (large span wings) was as good as the deep fins and had potential to be better with some development (which we did at BKYD in the late 80's early 90's). A larger keel with short wings, a stub keel/centerboard, the Scheel, and a long shallow fin were all not so good. Of course most have seen development since.

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... The biggest problem with centerboards is the lifting mechanism as the centerboard (aka 'swing keel') is usually lifted with a cable of some kind. ...

 

Even for boards that are not heavy and are lifted by hand using a line, there are various ways for it to fail.

 

The other problem is that an open trunk when the centerboard is down is like dragging a bucket along.

 

Mine mitigates this problem somewhat because the board is a flat slab of metal. It fits in a skinny trunk. Probably not the fastest answer to that problem. ;)

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If I remember correctly the Cherubini 48' schooners have Scheel Keels. They are lovely looking boats, but they go sideways like a drunk towards a bar.

 

There are MUCH better solutions to shoal draft. My favorite is a centerboard that is housed in the fixed keel, below the cabin.

 

BV

 

Joe Adams in Oz designed the Adams 13 for himself, long waterline, narrow beam 43' 13000lb cruiser.

Draws under 4' with a lead stub keel and a vertical unballasted centreboard with a trunk that goes right through the main cabin and opens above the cabin roof.

Very popular here both as a long distance and a shoal draft cruiser, you just use a halyard to pull the board out of its slot if you want to fix it or clean it.

Unfortunately Joe was pretty short, so I bought his 36 footer instead ....

 

Sad news, Joe passed away today.

Story on SA

 

Might be splitting hairs, but what you described is a dagger board, not a centreboard. Dagger boards are ideal from a functional standpoint but the trunk you mention is a real downer for some folks. The biggest problem with centerboards is the lifting mechanism as the centerboard (aka 'swing keel') is usually lifted with a cable of some kind. Jackdaw posted a pic of a Bendytoi that had a mechanical lifting mechanism that seemed less prone to failure.

 

RIP Joe

 

I was sailing last weekend with a friend who had never sailed a boat with modern foils before. He was shocked at the light helm and precise control of my boat. I can brag about the rudder but having a daggerboard is a major plus- there is nothing like a foil designed only to do the hydrodynamic job with no ballast requirement. My daggerboard trunk also takes the mast compression loads, supports the cabin table and keeps me in my berth. Yes it does make the cabin tiny and the passage forward narrow and the starboard berth narrow, and the berths at different heights, but those are mere trifles when you are sailing.

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There are MUCH better solutions to shoal draft. My favorite is a centerboard that is housed in the fixed keel, below the cabin.

 

BV

 

Hey, my boat resembles that remark. 1970 Soverel 33-1, draws 3'6" (3'8" when I have ALL my liveaboard shit on board) with the board up, all, or practically all, the ballast in the stub keel, draws 9' with the board down. The "cable" is Amsteel Blue. I'm still learning this boat (and have LOTS to learn...) but so far I'm liking the options this arrangement presents for the kind of sailing I do and the places I do it in...

post-47517-0-09501500-1350403143_thumb.jpg

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If I remember correctly the Cherubini 48' schooners have Scheel Keels. They are lovely looking boats, but they go sideways like a drunk towards a bar.

 

There are MUCH better solutions to shoal draft. My favorite is a centerboard that is housed in the fixed keel, below the cabin.

 

BV

 

Joe Adams in Oz designed the Adams 13 for himself, long waterline, narrow beam 43' 13000lb cruiser.

Draws under 4' with a lead stub keel and a vertical unballasted centreboard with a trunk that goes right through the main cabin and opens above the cabin roof.

Very popular here both as a long distance and a shoal draft cruiser, you just use a halyard to pull the board out of its slot if you want to fix it or clean it.

Unfortunately Joe was pretty short, so I bought his 36 footer instead ....

 

Sad news, Joe passed away today.

Story on SA

 

Might be splitting hairs, but what you described is a dagger board, not a centreboard. Dagger boards are ideal from a functional standpoint but the trunk you mention is a real downer for some folks. The biggest problem with centerboards is the lifting mechanism as the centerboard (aka 'swing keel') is usually lifted with a cable of some kind. Jackdaw posted a pic of a Bendytoi that had a mechanical lifting mechanism that seemed less prone to failure.

 

RIP Joe

 

I used to race an Adams 13 out of St Kilda and found it to be not quite as weatherly as the Admiral's Cup boats of the time (Mid 80's) and had the expected challenges going upwind in a blow (narrow boat, relatively high VCG so balancing power with stability made it a very active boat to sail to weather thast needed to shorten sail fairly early). Off the wind it would fly. Logged a point to point average of about 20 knots with a storm kite and 3 reefs off SW Cape one Westcoaster. Highest I saw was about 24 knots with the runner up during a frontal passage.

 

Daggerboard trunk was not too much in the way. Head was to stbd of it and the fore and aft passageway to port.

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