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Keysrock35

Calling bottom paint experts

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I know there have been many topics on here about bottom paint, but specifically I am curious about paints that are good in both saltwater AND freshwater. I am currently in the great lakes and am used to using VC17 (which IMO, applies very easily, requires minimal sanding, and rarely needs to be cleaned).

 

I have stripped the bottom and am applying fresh barrier coat. I would not like to have to do this again, if in the near future I move to a saltwater location.

 

So, I have heard that VC offshore is a great option, but my concern is that it needs to be cleaned regularly. I would prefer to not have to do this. Also, I have heard it requires post-application sanding and can be difficult to apply. Not to mention it is $$$ - so I'd love to hear thoughts on that

 

I have also read about micron CSC which seems like it might have what I am looking for.

 

Any other thoughts?

 

(The boat is in the water 6 months of the year and on the hard 6 months of the year)

 

Thanks!

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if your in fresh water, and going to be in fresh water for at least anther few years dont stray from VC-17 you have the best possible bottom paint for fresh water period! VC Offshore is a great paint but yes it will need cleaning on the regular, and if you are rolling it on, even when thinned out, it will require a good burnishing. I am not sure how big your boat is, but if its say under 35' feet I would stay with VC-17 and then just plan on doing a quick sand on the bottom to remove any old 17 if you move to salt water. It wont take that long to sand off the 17, heck it will be less time sanding off the 17 then you will burnishing the off shore for the next two seasons. Or you could go to the extreme other end of things and go check out Intersleek from interlux. lasts 5-10 years slippery as shit and no burnishing required! however plan on around a $600-700 a gallon all up between barrier coat, tie coat, and the intersleek

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So, I have heard that VC offshore is a great option, but my concern is that it needs to be cleaned regularly. I would prefer to not have to do this.

There is no anti fouling paint available in this country that does not require periodic cleaning when used in a saltwater environment 24/7/365. Just how frequent that cleaning is largely depends on where the boat lives.

 

The boat is in the water 6 months of the year and on the hard 6 months of the year

You need an ablative paint to do this. Micron CSC would probably be a good choice. Interlux has a forum, if you want to ask questions about their products:

 

http://www.yachtpaintforum.com/antifouling_forum7&SID=62c7dce7495af5f9e41z897d93e3bd9a.html

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Any experience with Epaint ZO-Hp?

To my knowledge, I have not personally come across that product. However, I have serviced boats with photo-reactive paints that did not perform particularly well in the Bay Area, possibly because of the relatively turgid conditions found here. Not a knock against Zinc Omadine paints, just pointing out the possibility that they may perform better in clearer waters.

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That is good advice.

 

The boat is 35' (C&C 35)

 

I guess what I mean to say is: I'd like a paint that does not need to be cleaned while in freshwater, and in saltwater I just want a decent paint (but I will expect to have to clean it occasionally).

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You haven't said if you're racing your boat or mostly cruising/occasionally racing. If you're racing, a hard paint is the only answer. That leaves Offshore/Baltoplate (same formulation). Ablatives become rough/grainy over a period of time. The vinyl paint stays smooth - albeit with regular scrubbing (in salt water). Some years ago we had a Hobie 33 and for the sake of comparison motored at full throttle with an old but clean ablative paint bottom. Two weeks later with a new Baltoplate bottom, sanded to 800, we motored again at full throttle and were .1kn faster. I'm not sure how scientific we were, conditions were both calm, but a .1kn increase at 6kn is pretty huge. We continue to use the Baltoplate and now sand to 1000 or 1200 on a 38'boat. It's all in what you want to do and whether you're happy with your place in the fleet. We try to leave excuses at the dock. VC

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If you're racing, a hard paint is the only answer. That leaves Offshore/Baltoplate (same formulation). Ablatives become rough/grainy over a period of time.

Several issues with your statement;

 

1.- To say that ablative paints are the only answer for racers is a gross (and inaccurate, IMHO) generalization. Many successful racers swear by particular ablative paints and most of them can be used in either fresh or saltwater.

 

2.- While VC Offshore and Baltoplate are very similar, they are not identical products. Further, they both have really poor anti fouling properties and are not suitable for boats that live in regions of moderate to high fouling.

 

3.- I don't believe I have ever seen a properly applied and maintained ablative bottom become "rough and grainy".

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If you're racing, a hard paint is the only answer. That leaves Offshore/Baltoplate (same formulation). Ablatives become rough/grainy over a period of time.

Several issues with your statement;

 

1.- To say that ablative paints are the only answer for racers is a gross (and inaccurate, IMHO) generalization. Many successful racers swear by particular ablative paints and most of them can be used in either fresh or saltwater.

 

2.- While VC Offshore and Baltoplate are very similar, they are not identical products. Further, they both have really poor anti fouling properties and are not suitable for boats that live in regions of moderate to high fouling.

 

3.- I don't believe I have ever seen a properly applied and maintained ablative bottom become "rough and grainy".

 

Interlux now lists Baltoplate as just another color of Offshore. I think it used to be different, had Molybdenum or somesuch in it, now the same to my knowledge. It is shitty nonfouling, we race in the Chesapeake Bay. So is most all of the other stuff out there. But I stand by my "rough/grainy" comment. COMPARED to highly burnished hard vinyl, all the ablatives I've seen in the yard are comparatively rough by the middle of the season.Yer racin' or you ain't. And if you're racing against me, I hope you're using an ablative.

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Interlux now lists Baltoplate as just another color of Offshore. I think it used to be different, had Molybdenum or somesuch in it, now the same to my knowledge.

I don't believe that is the case and it also doesn't jibe with what Interlux Technical Sales Rep Stan Sussman told me when we discussed it last month.

 

From the VC Offshore product datasheet:

 

VC® Offshore for racing, sailing and performance power boats is formulated with Fluoro microadditive for a hard, smooth low friction surface that can be burnished to a very low profile. When polished, VC® Offshore yields a very hard finish for maximum durability and reduced friction for increased performance. VC® Offshore is suitable for use in fresh and salt water.

•For racing, sailing and power boats

•Suitable for salt and freshwater

•Formulated with Fluoro microadditive for a low friction surface

•Hard, smooth finish can be burnished to a very low profile

 

http://www.yachtpaint.com/usa/diy/products/antifouling/vc-offshore.aspx

 

From the Baltoplate product datasheet:

 

VC® Offshore Baltoplate is specialized antifouling bottom paint for the serious racer. It combines the fouling resistance of an antifouling finish with the smoothness and lubricity of a superior racing bottom finish in one coating. Baltoplate racing finish antifouling is unlike any bottom paint you have ever used. It dries to a dull finish. Sand and polish it and watch an amazing change take place. What was a dull finish is now a gleaming metallic finish. Baltoplate is recommended for use in all waters.

 

http://www.yachtpaint.com/usa/diy/products/antifouling/baltoplate.aspx

 

From the Interlux forum:

 

There is very little difference between the two products. VC Offshore is available in 3 colors (Red, Black and Blue) and contains a fluoromicroadditive which makes the coating that much easier to wet sand and burnish. Baltoplate is available in just 1 color which will apply and dry to a Brick Red color which will then change to a Gray Metallic finish after the wet sanding and burnishing. Even without the fluorormicroadditive the Baltoplate is fairly easy to wet sand, but it would be best to start sooner then later to make the job easier.

 

http://www.yachtpaintforum.com/baltoplate-vs-vc-offshore_topic580.html

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Interlux now lists Baltoplate as just another color of Offshore. I think it used to be different, had Molybdenum or somesuch in it, now the same to my knowledge.

I don't believe that is the case and it also doesn't jibe with what Interlux Technical Sales Rep Stan Sussman told me when we discussed it last month.

 

From the VC Offshore product datasheet:

 

VC® Offshore for racing, sailing and performance power boats is formulated with Fluoro microadditive for a hard, smooth low friction surface that can be burnished to a very low profile. When polished, VC® Offshore yields a very hard finish for maximum durability and reduced friction for increased performance. VC® Offshore is suitable for use in fresh and salt water.

•For racing, sailing and power boats

•Suitable for salt and freshwater

•Formulated with Fluoro microadditive for a low friction surface

•Hard, smooth finish can be burnished to a very low profile

 

http://www.yachtpaint.com/usa/diy/products/antifouling/vc-offshore.aspx

 

From the Baltoplate product datasheet:

 

VC® Offshore Baltoplate is specialized antifouling bottom paint for the serious racer. It combines the fouling resistance of an antifouling finish with the smoothness and lubricity of a superior racing bottom finish in one coating. Baltoplate racing finish antifouling is unlike any bottom paint you have ever used. It dries to a dull finish. Sand and polish it and watch an amazing change take place. What was a dull finish is now a gleaming metallic finish. Baltoplate is recommended for use in all waters.

 

http://www.yachtpaint.com/usa/diy/products/antifouling/baltoplate.aspx

 

From the Interlux forum:

 

There is very little difference between the two products. VC Offshore is available in 3 colors (Red, Black and Blue) and contains a fluoromicroadditive which makes the coating that much easier to wet sand and burnish. Baltoplate is available in just 1 color which will apply and dry to a Brick Red color which will then change to a Gray Metallic finish after the wet sanding and burnishing. Even without the fluorormicroadditive the Baltoplate is fairly easy to wet sand, but it would be best to start sooner then later to make the job easier.

 

http://www.yachtpaintforum.com/baltoplate-vs-vc-offshore_topic580.html

 

Thanks for the research. No argument here. I know you know your bottoms. From my position, objectively, empirically, I think the Vinyl paints are smoother throughout the season than other paints, especially ablatives. Do you make service calls to the East Coast? I need a bottom cleaner. Leroi

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From my position, objectively, empirically, I think the Vinyl paints are smoother throughout the season than other paints, especially ablatives.

Out here, vinyl paints fail so quickly that they soon (well inside of a year, typically) become almost uncleanable, at least by racing standards. So your super-smooth vinyl bottom is now covered in a thin layer of algae that almost literally defies removal. How fast is that? :P

 

P.S.- I'll go anywhere to clean bottoms. Standard commercial dive rates apply. $1000/day plus roundtrip airfare. ;)

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If you come down to San Diego Make sure You have your San Diego Port athority Permit

You ain't tellin' me anything I don't already know. In point of fact, I support the Divers Permit, in theory. It's just that the Port fucked it up in practice. But that shouldn't be a surprise to anybody.

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Any experience with Epaint ZO-Hp?

 

I use it and am happy with it- a trailerable multihull It works well in salt water during a new england summer, and is not made ineffective by being out of the water. My understanding is fresh water causes it no problems. It doesn't work as well, as the chemistry wants salt water, but then fresh water doesn't have as much growth.

 

It wants to be sprayed to be really smooth. I roll and tip, and then periodically scotchbrite during the summer. The finish is pretty sweet by fall.

 

 

 

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Any experience with Epaint ZO-Hp?

 

I use it and am happy with it- a trailerable multihull It works well in salt water during a new england summer, and is not made ineffective by being out of the water. My understanding is fresh water causes it no problems. It doesn't work as well, as the chemistry wants salt water, but then fresh water doesn't have as much growth.

 

It wants to be sprayed to be really smooth. I roll and tip, and then periodically scotchbrite during the summer. The finish is pretty sweet by fall.

 

 

I'm going be doing my Hobie 33 bottom this spring and have decided to roll the dice and use the white ZO-HP. I chose based Practical Sailor results, being able to haul out in the offseason without loss of effectiveness, wanting a hard ablative, less dense than Cu, and I think I've got a sporting chance of getting 2-3 seasons out of it. Here's my limited contribution:

 

I'll be keeping the boat moored (considered a slip but figured that water would be cleaner and more oxygen rich on a mooring) on the Susquehanna River (freshwater, northernmost tip of the Ches. Bay). We've got a local NOAA buoy that reports water temp, O2 concentration, salinity, etc. (I find this terribly fascinating as a Chem. E.) which may be useful for future reference if the ZO-HP does/doesn't work. It would be nice if Epaint had quantitative performance data based water chemistry/concentrations/temps, but they don't.

 

I've done some roll-and-tip test applications using different roller/brush combinations on glass. I max-thinned the paints - 10:1 for the EPPrime 1000 and 4:1 for the ZO-HP. I tried 1/8" and 3/16" mohair, a white soft-bristled roller, and yellow West foam rollers. Smoothness/coverage were best for the EP1000 barrier coat with the white, soft-bristled roller (3/16" nap bristles sticking straight up off of the roller surface) and foam brush to tip. It DID leave brush marks and sanding gummed up the paper very badly. (Application guide says to apply antifouling onto fresh EPPrime anyhow) However, there was no print through of the EPPrime brush marks after 1-2 ZO-HP coats.

 

The ZO-HP went on best with a 1/8" pink mohair roller and foam brush to tip. Again, there were brush marks after 4-5 coats (*neither* of these paints flows out after tipping), but 2 sqft wet-sanded smooth in a couple of minutes with a 150 grit sanding sponge. After sanding the ZO-HP remained opaque - i.e. underlying EPPrime/brush marks were not visible. I haven't tried going to finer grits yet to max out the smoothness.

 

So...no *actual* performance data yet...but hope this is useful for someone somewhere in some way.

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I think he should just take the orange gelcoat approach that he knows. After all, orange is fast!

 

Trust me, I have considered it. Doing the hull next year, stay tuned...

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Perhaps one of the new Econea (sp?) based bottom paints such as Pettit Ultima Eco or Interlux Pacifica? Had not had firsthand experience with either but they might both fill the fresh water/salt water need with the perhaps caveat being what salt water region/how heavy the fouling is there.

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[

I've done some roll-and-tip test applications using different roller/brush combinations on glass. I max-thinned the paints - 10:1 for the EPPrime 1000 and 4:1 for the ZO-HP. I tried 1/8" and 3/16" mohair, a white soft-bristled roller, and yellow West foam rollers. Smoothness/coverage were best for the EP1000 barrier coat with the white, soft-bristled roller (3/16" nap bristles sticking straight up off of the roller surface) and foam brush to tip. It DID leave brush marks and sanding gummed up the paper very badly. (Application guide says to apply antifouling onto fresh EPPrime anyhow) However, there was no print through of the EPPrime brush marks after 1-2 ZO-HP coats.

 

The ZO-HP went on best with a 1/8" pink mohair roller and foam brush to tip. Again, there were brush marks after 4-5 coats (*neither* of these paints flows out after tipping), but 2 sqft wet-sanded smooth in a couple of minutes with a 150 grit sanding sponge. After sanding the ZO-HP remained opaque - i.e. underlying EPPrime/brush marks were not visible. I haven't tried going to finer grits yet to max out the smoothness.

 

So...no *actual* performance data yet...but hope this is useful for someone somewhere in some way.

 

Thanks a lot for that- I've never done the experimentation and have been using a fine bristle brush with ok results. I've thinned the ZO-HP a little- did you. My multihull is U shaped so keeping a wet edge is a problem.

 

 

 

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Its the same only worse on the East Coast. My boat lives in a harbor where the water gets to between 70-80 degrees during the summer. It is also an estuary which has alot of runoff with plenty of nitrates in it which tend to increase marine growth.

 

I do my bottom once every 4-5 years with VC offshore. My boat is in the water 4 months out of the year, but requires weekly cleaning which I do myself. Cleaning it weekly, all is required is a wipedown with a sponge to keep it perfectly clean.

 

The boat could not be left without cleaning for a month, or even two weeks.(I always clean it weekly and if I'm not around my nephew does it)

 

I actually notice very little difference between fresh VC offshore and paint that is 4 years old as far as antifouling performance. I swear they put fertilizer in that paint!

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[

I've done some roll-and-tip test applications using different roller/brush combinations on glass. I max-thinned the paints - 10:1 for the EPPrime 1000 and 4:1 for the ZO-HP. I tried 1/8" and 3/16" mohair, a white soft-bristled roller, and yellow West foam rollers. Smoothness/coverage were best for the EP1000 barrier coat with the white, soft-bristled roller (3/16" nap bristles sticking straight up off of the roller surface) and foam brush to tip. It DID leave brush marks and sanding gummed up the paper very badly. (Application guide says to apply antifouling onto fresh EPPrime anyhow) However, there was no print through of the EPPrime brush marks after 1-2 ZO-HP coats.

 

The ZO-HP went on best with a 1/8" pink mohair roller and foam brush to tip. Again, there were brush marks after 4-5 coats (*neither* of these paints flows out after tipping), but 2 sqft wet-sanded smooth in a couple of minutes with a 150 grit sanding sponge. After sanding the ZO-HP remained opaque - i.e. underlying EPPrime/brush marks were not visible. I haven't tried going to finer grits yet to max out the smoothness.

 

So...no *actual* performance data yet...but hope this is useful for someone somewhere in some way.

 

Thanks a lot for that- I've never done the experimentation and have been using a fine bristle brush with ok results. I've thinned the ZO-HP a little- did you. My multihull is U shaped so keeping a wet edge is a problem.

 

Yeah - I maxed out the thinner for both paints according to the spec sheet. 4:1 for the ZO-HP, and 10:1 for the EPPrime. I tried a $10 badger hair brush as well as the foam brush and thought the foam gave a better "feel" for angle and pressure. Cheap and disposable ain't bad, either.

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I know there have been many topics on here about bottom paint, but specifically I am curious about paints that are good in both saltwater AND freshwater. I am currently in the great lakes and am used to using VC17 (which IMO, applies very easily, requires minimal sanding, and rarely needs to be cleaned).

 

I have stripped the bottom and am applying fresh barrier coat. I would not like to have to do this again, if in the near future I move to a saltwater location.

 

So, I have heard that VC offshore is a great option, but my concern is that it needs to be cleaned regularly. I would prefer to not have to do this. Also, I have heard it requires post-application sanding and can be difficult to apply. Not to mention it is $$$ - so I'd love to hear thoughts on that

 

I have also read about micron CSC which seems like it might have what I am looking for.

 

Any other thoughts?

 

(The boat is in the water 6 months of the year and on the hard 6 months of the year)

 

Thanks!

 

 

I'v used both baltoplate and vc offshore. Both great paints for racing, both lousy for antifouling, and unless cleaned every couple of weeks minimum, your boat bottom will look like the Everglades by mid season. I switched to sprayed Vivid, cleaned about every 3 weeks on average- over 6 months in the water -Decent paint.. just my.02

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