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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  

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CARBONINIT

VOR Leg 5

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In the past, when pushed too hard, boats would lose the rig. Not a great experience, but a LOT better than losing the hull, particularly at 50S. That's part of the machine taking care of the people in good design and construction that give the people Graceful Failure Modes, those which may disable the boat, but take care of the people by preventing still worse failures.

 

 

This is simply not true. The rigs for VOR or Whitbread boats have never been designed to be break away or serve as a "weak link." By the way, a falling rig is an extremely good way to kill crew or create an unrecoverable MOB situation. It would be foolish to ever design the rig to break even at sustained max GZ.

 

I think one thing you need to consider when slagging on these boats is that the structural requirements for the boats in this edition of the race are every bit as high has for the last edition, which did not have this level of failure. Moreover, these structural requirements are more stringent than either the Open 60 or the old Whitbread 60 boats. These are not weak boats by any conventional measure. They substantially exceed the structural requirements for all other racing classes in the world as well as all standard industry guidelines.

 

So why have they had these specific hull problems in this edition of the race and not the prior editions using substantially similar structures? I don't really have an answer, but can think of several possibilities:

 

(1) The first is that this race has featured an unusually amount of beating/close reaching in large seas and gale+ winds. This is pretty brutal on boats, and has been known to cause serious hull failures even on large ships. I don't remember this many days of abuse on any prior VOR.

(2) The second possibility is that there are new loads on these boats from the rigging that create additional stresses that we haven't seen in the past. The peak luff tension on these new head sails (particularly in large seas) may be forces we haven't seen before.

(3) The third is that the boats are marginally faster in big seas than in the past. Slamming loads increase at something greater than velocity cubed, so small differences in speed may create deceptively large differences in loads.

(4) Finally, it is possible that there are changes in the construction materials or methods that have unanticipated negative effects on fatigue properties. For example, the fleet may have moved to a different grade of carbon fiber, but the change did not increase the strength as much as expected because the failure is now in the resin not the fiber. I don't know enough about the precise materials used over time to evaluate this possibility.

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Hull delamination and structural failures in this race are nothing new. Off the top of my head (and I'm sure there have been other cases), in 1985 Drum had to divert to Namibia with serious hull delamination issues (having previously lost its keel in the Fastnet), and in 1993 half the W60 fleet (and, iirc one of the maxis) had major delamination problems. There has always been a requirement to throttle back, in some conditions, to avoid risk of hull damage.

 

 

No rigs have fallen in this leg. But, Ador and Puma both lost rigs in leg one and Sanya almost lost hers later. Telephonica even had standing rigging issues. So, by your logic they should not have gone back to a proven dependable set of standing rigging. They should have just replaced with what they had and figured they over pushed the capabitlity of the entire design.

 

The failures race only stopped teams from racing or slowed them down. They have not required rescue. Previous iterations have required rescue and far more IMOCA boats have had to have their skippers rescued than Volvo or Whitbread boats.

 

It's about competition and how hard the teams are willing to push. If you don't like the risks these guys are taking, you don't have to sign up for a VO70 program. But, these guys keep coming back and are more than happy to push to and occassionaly beyond the edge. They are willing to accept that if they do need rescue, it's more than likely going to come from one of their competitors.

 

You both miss the point:

 

First, I'd like to say I'm fine with the guys taking the the usual and customary risks of offshore racing. What I'm talking about is inflicting risks they didn't know they were taking when they stepped aboard.

 

They didn't knowingly take on a substantial risk of floating bulkheads, separating longitudinals and delaminating oil-canning panels. (Those are always risks, sure, ones that should rank right alongside the risk of being struck by a falling meteor. Well, almost alongside.) KR is quite right about the need to watch the hull for damage - now that the issue has come to light. It would be stupid not to. But did he or anyone else expect to lose hull integrity under conditions that leave the rig standing when they started? I think not. Did KR set a "ring frame-bulkhead-hull panel watch" from the start of leg 5? I think not. Did KR learn from the experience of others? Thanks, yes. G4 same, I'm sure.

 

And are we to accept Drum as the benchmark for good design/engineering/construction practice? That's plainly absurd. Bad boats have been with us before. They will again. My point is that they are here now.

 

It is a credit to the sailors that they haven't come to greater harm. I salute them. I wish them fair winds and following seas. I celebrate their achievements. I hold my breath for their well-being in the face of considerable additional risks they didn't expect to accept. Pushing the boat until you lose the rig is going to result in a miserable, wet, battered existence until rescued, but there's a reasonable likelihood that rescue will, in time, come. And they do have engines and at least some fuel. That's a level risk these sailors know and choose to accept. Stepping into a life raft because the hull has come apart shouldn't be in the cards (unless there's a collision). These guys aren't that far, at this point, from that life raft and all the hazards of that step at 45-55S in 2 degree water - or lower. Until their recent deterioration, we've heard that ADOR has been watching Camper (and maybe even shadowing them) in case things got to that point. Can't say yet that they are still able to rescue themselves, much less Camper.

 

One of the four cripples has made it to a port. That leave three still facing the risk of further deterioration. A cascade failure would not be fun for the crew.

 

This is messy business, boys and girls, and not what anyone had in mind back in NZ and certainly not back in Spain.

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I said, " Bad boats have been with us before. They will again. My point is that they are here now." I should have said they're at 50S now. That's a far different thing than being "here."

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I'd argue based upon the history of racing in the Southern Ocean, if you didn't figure that there was a risk of losing a keel, a rudder, tearing the coach roof off, a dismasting, broken secondary bonds or even broken primary bonds, then you haven't been paying attention to the history of all the boats that have sailed in the Southern Ocean. There is definitely a very high probability that such events could occur. They could have chosen to to put more structure in the bows. They could have gone for the less sail area option. Heck, when you enter your local coastal race you could choose to race a Swan 56 over a TP52. And, there could be conditions where that option might win you a first to finish in conditions like say 79 FastNet. But, in a race without handicap, odds are the TP52 is going to beat that Swan almost every single time.

 

It's pretty simple. They are competing at the highest offshore level. That competition caused them to keep more sail area up and drive hotter angles in a sea state that ultimately broke. Puma had taken a go at your own pace strategy as soon as they caught up to the low. Groupama started to back off a couple days later. Telephonica even had not pressed as hard as Camper. Now, who is in the worst shape? Who is continuing on but at a much reduced rate. And, the two boats that backed off earliest. Well, they're the owns managing their boats the best. Could they still break? Of course. But, that's why rounding Cape Horn is the penultimate achievement of offshore sailing. It is a huge risk to even attempt to do it, let alone in competition.

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What I'm talking about is inflicting risks they didn't know they were taking when they stepped aboard.

 

You might have a point if it weren't for the fact that these guys have been around the block a few times. Look up the failures/breakages in just the last VOR alone.

 

Breaking boats is a fairly "usual and customary" risk at this level of racing.

 

I think Tom and Dave are making way more sense than you. Just sayin'.

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In the past, when pushed too hard, boats would lose the rig. Not a great experience, but a LOT better than losing the hull, particularly at 50S. That's part of the machine taking care of the people in good design and construction that give the people Graceful Failure Modes, those which may disable the boat, but take care of the people by preventing still worse failures.

 

 

This is simply not true. The rigs for VOR or Whitbread boats have never been designed to be break away or serve as a "weak link." By the way, a falling rig is an extremely good way to kill crew or create an unrecoverable MOB situation. It would be foolish to ever design the rig to break even at sustained max GZ.

 

I think one thing you need to consider when slagging on these boats is that the structural requirements for the boats in this edition of the race are every bit as high has for the last edition, which did not have this level of failure. Moreover, these structural requirements are more stringent than either the Open 60 or the old Whitbread 60 boats. These are not weak boats by any conventional measure. They substantially exceed the structural requirements for all other racing classes in the world as well as all standard industry guidelines.

 

So why have they had these specific hull problems in this edition of the race and not the prior editions using substantially similar structures? I don't really have an answer, but can think of several possibilities:

 

(1) The first is that this race has featured an unusually amount of beating/close reaching in large seas and gale+ winds. This is pretty brutal on boats, and has been known to cause serious hull failures even on large ships. I don't remember this many days of abuse on any prior VOR.

(2) The second possibility is that there are new loads on these boats from the rigging that create additional stresses that we haven't seen in the past. The peak luff tension on these new head sails (particularly in large seas) may be forces we haven't seen before.

(3) The third is that the boats are marginally faster in big seas than in the past. Slamming loads increase at something greater than velocity cubed, so small differences in speed may create deceptively large differences in loads.

(4) Finally, it is possible that there are changes in the construction materials or methods that have unanticipated negative effects on fatigue properties. For example, the fleet may have moved to a different grade of carbon fiber, but the change did not increase the strength as much as expected because the failure is now in the resin not the fiber. I don't know enough about the precise materials used over time to evaluate this possibility.

 

 

(5) The southern ocean has been a real mess (washing machine) for these teams. They talk about organized seas very little in this leg...Big waves + confused seas + high bost speeds = VO 70 carnage.

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VOR Webite latest headline:

Groupama and PUMA in tactical battle on approach to Horn ....NO SHIT!!!!!!!

 

 

 

Talk about summarizing the obvious...why not some predictions about how close in they might go?? Or if the 50 mi. that Puma is behind will compress with the light air ahead?? If they think the seas will be different by going in close?? The info on this forum might be a good starting point for the authors who write these lame news pieces....what a joke.

 

 

 

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so how much has the short stopovers (especially auckland) had an effect? That is a significant change from the last race.

 

have checks been missed by the shor crews? Tired sailing crews making mistakes?

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so how much has the short stopovers (especially auckland) had an effect? That is a significant change from the last race.

 

have checks been missed by the shor crews? Tired sailing crews making mistakes?

 

It's possible that the short stop over may contribute to the attrition rate. But, Groupama had time to successfully do major hull repair right in the area that these problems are occurring. I'm pretty sure the shore crews would all have been looking quite hard at these areas.

I'd also contend that the short stop over is probably easier on the crews. Once you've gotten your sea legs, short periods ashore don't make you go through as much readjustment as longer periods would. So, while the first couple nights out were incredibly hard on the crew, it could have been worse acclimatization wise.

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Interesting tactics between G4 & Puma. G4 doing a couple of gybes whilst Puma sails a graceful arc smile.gif Doesn't look like the extra speed from the tighter angles for Groupama paid off though.

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After watching these boats race around the harbor the other day I couldn't help but think that in big steep waves there was going to be problems with stuffing the bow and sticking that downward pointing sprit into the backs of the waves in front. The side bending forces between the rudders,keel,dagger boards and bow creates a chain and the weak link will always break. Some may break their rudders some may break their bows. The same thing can happen when you try and bend the boat in two dropping off a wave and bending the bow up while the rest if the boat wants to go down. There are some reasons these boats struggled in the southern ocean. That they are giant flat bottom planing surfboards with multiple appendages from front to back and a giant mast is not a help when you are pushing hard down.through,over, or around southern ocean monsters.

The cabin tops look like they were designed for maximum exposure to the crew on deck. It is amazing that no one has been washed into the briny blue yet. Isn't it time to design a boat that is ergonomic for the type of racing you encounter sailing around the world? These are just some observations from a retired ocean racing wanker that has a LOT of ocean racing miles under their belt.

 

On a positive the boats do look bad ass sitting at the dock.

 

A word for Dalt's or whoever (I havn't seen him in an interview yet) about blaming the designer for Team New Zealands poor performance Next time put together something we can be proud of here in NZ. When you point your finger at someone you have three fingers pointing back at yourself. We pay you a lot of money to be in the game and up front. Don't take it for granted that we don't notice or care.

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So why have they had these specific hull problems in this edition of the race and not the prior editions using substantially similar structures? I don't really have an answer, but can think of several possibilities:

 

(1) The first is that this race has featured an unusually amount of beating/close reaching in large seas and gale+ winds. This is pretty brutal on boats, and has been known to cause serious hull failures even on large ships. I don't remember this many days of abuse on any prior VOR.

(2) The second possibility is that there are new loads on these boats from the rigging that create additional stresses that we haven't seen in the past. The peak luff tension on these new head sails (particularly in large seas) may be forces we haven't seen before.

(3) The third is that the boats are marginally faster in big seas than in the past. Slamming loads increase at something greater than velocity cubed, so small differences in speed may create deceptively large differences in loads.

(4) Finally, it is possible that there are changes in the construction materials or methods that have unanticipated negative effects on fatigue properties. For example, the fleet may have moved to a different grade of carbon fiber, but the change did not increase the strength as much as expected because the failure is now in the resin not the fiber. I don't know enough about the precise materials used over time to evaluate this possibility.

 

 

(5) The southern ocean has been a real mess (washing machine) for these teams. They talk about organized seas very little in this leg...Big waves + confused seas + high bost speeds = VO 70 carnage.

 

To your point, it seems that they are rounding the cape very late in the season. I remember thinking the same thing in 2009, and they are about two weeks later this year than in 2009. They are four weeks later than in 2006. They are 6 weeks later than the rounding in 2002. Why do they keep pushing the Cape Horn leg into the southern winter? April 1st is too late to be sailing at 57 South.

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Any new news on ADOR? They look hove-to on the tracker.

 

oh no...ADOR latest sched, heading 53, average speed 9.3 knots, instant speed 5.0 knots....all in 26 knots of breeze and 5.77m waves. Hope their problems have not gone to extreme!

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Yeah Abba Dabba is up to some strange stuff heading NNW according to the tracker.

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Interesting tactics between G4 & Puma. G4 doing a couple of gybes whilst Puma sails a graceful arc smile.gif Doesn't look like the extra speed from the tighter angles for Groupama paid off though.

 

I don't think it really would have mattered what either of them did.

They're sailing into a hole and the new breeze is coming from behind.

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Yeah Abba Dabba is up to some strange stuff heading NNW according to the tracker.

 

OUCH this is not looking good for Abu Dhabi

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http://www.thedailysail.com/offshore/12/61582/0/60-cities-apply-to-host-volvo-ocean-race-stopovers

 

"The contest to host stopovers in the next two editions of the Volvo Ocean Race is running hot with Expressions of Interest from 60 cities in 27 countries looking to stage the race, making it one of the largest host city bidding processes in sport."

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The drivel that's posted in this thread for the past several days has been hilarious. The post from TLS is a nice change to that trend. Noteably missing from that post is the fact that this is the latest seasonal Southern Ocean jaunt ever. There's less day light, the weather is colder and the air is denser, although they've perhaps not ventured sufficiently far south for that to be a major factor.

 

No one has every sailed in the deep south with boats as powerful or as strongly built as this fleet of 3rd generation V70s. The talk about designed-in fuses and improvements to crew protection on deck are lunacy. Every ounce of weight is applied to integrity and performance potential. The design parameters of appendages, hull, rigging and sails are optimized for balance - each component being designed to first comply with the Rule requirements and then designed to provide the best return on weight for the structural integrity offered and the highest performance potential.

 

The notion that a 2-year design cycle might not allow for sufficient FEA, is similarly off base. Hundreds of analysis are performed on components, assemblies and the entire design. The improvements in modeling tools and massively parallel computation solutions have completely changed what's possible over the last ~10 years. One might question the assumptions used for modeling - it's a bit surprising that there's been so much slamming-related failure but absolutely no canting-mechanism failure and that might suggest that too much weight is in the rams and bulkheads that accept those loads and the weight throughout the forward panels ought to have been moderately increased. Clearly the balance between the two is off a bit. If the V70 concept is used again in four years, I'd expect that we might see a modest increase in the minimum hull weight to give the designers an opportunity to do more about the slamming resistance.

 

The Volvo has had a remarkable safety record, mostly as a result of its remarkably conservative approach to scantlings, medical training, communication and safety-equipment requirements. It's that combination that allows unbelievably aggressive sailing in the worst conditions on earth. Talk that Camper pushed too hard is just silly. They were, as I recall, only ~20nm in first place, sailing a boat that's at best the same performance as the competition. Tucking in a reef or dropping from a C to a J would have lost that lead in one 3-hour sched. The Telefonica protest not withstanding, Camper needed a leg win to have a chance at winning the regatta and they're a frightfully competitive crew. No one remembers who finishes 2nd. No one who stood a single watch on Groupama would ever thing that Cammas was sailing conservatively - just take a look at the videos. If G4 has a delamination problem is everyone going to start ragging on Cammas given that Puma is only 50nm back? Please.

 

The V70 is a development class. Rather than slagging the organizers, crews, builders, architects and engineers who are making this remarkable entertainment possible, it might be better to give pause to the fact that this race, more than any other, has produced unbelievable depth of understanding of loads, stresses and capabilities of composite boat construction. The VOR is the toughest event in all of sailing if not all of sport. If you've got so much to offer it, why not sign on with a team? Otherwise, all this shooting from the hip on a couch is just silly.

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Yeah Abba Dabba is up to some strange stuff heading NNW according to the tracker.

 

OUCH this is not looking good for Abu Dhabi

 

Tracker is showing that ADOR is making 5.5 knots in 6m waves. That's got to be harrowing - and not very comfortable, either. Bow? We don't need no steenking bow!

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http://www.thedailys...-race-stopovers

 

"The contest to host stopovers in the next two editions of the Volvo Ocean Race is running hot with Expressions of Interest from 60 cities in 27 countries looking to stage the race, making it one of the largest host city bidding processes in sport."

 

With extra $ from Middle east & Asia plus the boats breaking apart in the southern ocean, I wouldn't be surprised if the next VOR take a route say from Japan to San Francisco, then SF to Panama and ship through the canal to the Atlantic. Hell they may even go from Alicante to middle east via ship on the Suez canal... it's all about $$$ now!

 

Sadly I do not see the VOR stopping again in Australia anytime soon mad.gif

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So the latest sched shows ADOR at 4kts in 27kts of breeze and 5.28m waves - does not look good at all.

Kenny is doing his best to get within visual of G4 and I think he'll just about manage it in the next 1 or 2 scheds; the light patch seems to be hanging around longer as each successive forecast comes out.

The pressure is definitely off Tele now but at the same time they must be ruing their problem as they are really not that far off the pace.

Given what we know about the speeds Puma and G4 were happy to push, could someone see if there was an alternative route that avoided the worst of the depression everyone immersed themselves in?

Was there an available northerly route with minimal time losses?

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The drivel that's posted in this thread for the past several days has been hilarious. The post from TLS is a nice change to that trend. Noteably missing from that post is the fact that this is the latest seasonal Southern Ocean jaunt ever. There's less day light, the weather is colder and the air is denser, although they've perhaps not ventured sufficiently far south for that to be a major factor.

 

No one has every sailed in the deep south with boats as powerful or as strongly built as this fleet of 3rd generation V70s. The talk about designed-in fuses and improvements to crew protection on deck are lunacy. Every ounce of weight is applied to integrity and performance potential. The design parameters of appendages, hull, rigging and sails are optimized for balance - each component being designed to first comply with the Rule requirements and then designed to provide the best return on weight for the structural integrity offered and the highest performance potential.

 

The notion that a 2-year design cycle might not allow for sufficient FEA, is similarly off base. Hundreds of analysis are performed on components, assemblies and the entire design. The improvements in modeling tools and massively parallel computation solutions have completely changed what's possible over the last ~10 years. One might question the assumptions used for modeling - it's a bit surprising that there's been so much slamming-related failure but absolutely no canting-mechanism failure and that might suggest that too much weight is in the rams and bulkheads that accept those loads and the weight throughout the forward panels ought to have been moderately increased. Clearly the balance between the two is off a bit. If the V70 concept is used again in four years, I'd expect that we might see a modest increase in the minimum hull weight to give the designers an opportunity to do more about the slamming resistance.

 

The Volvo has had a remarkable safety record, mostly as a result of its remarkably conservative approach to scantlings, medical training, communication and safety-equipment requirements. It's that combination that allows unbelievably aggressive sailing in the worst conditions on earth. Talk that Camper pushed too hard is just silly. They were, as I recall, only ~20nm in first place, sailing a boat that's at best the same performance as the competition. Tucking in a reef or dropping from a C to a J would have lost that lead in one 3-hour sched. The Telefonica protest not withstanding, Camper needed a leg win to have a chance at winning the regatta and they're a frightfully competitive crew. No one remembers who finishes 2nd. No one who stood a single watch on Groupama would ever thing that Cammas was sailing conservatively - just take a look at the videos. If G4 has a delamination problem is everyone going to start ragging on Cammas given that Puma is only 50nm back? Please.

 

The V70 is a development class. Rather than slagging the organizers, crews, builders, architects and engineers who are making this remarkable entertainment possible, it might be better to give pause to the fact that this race, more than any other, has produced unbelievable depth of understanding of loads, stresses and capabilities of composite boat construction. The VOR is the toughest event in all of sailing if not all of sport. If you've got so much to offer it, why not sign on with a team? Otherwise, all this shooting from the hip on a couch is just silly.

 

 

 

Very insightful and articulate post. Food for thought.

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Hull delamination and structural failures in this race are nothing new. Off the top of my head (and I'm sure there have been other cases), in 1985 Drum had to divert to Namibia with serious hull delamination issues (having previously lost its keel in the Fastnet), and in 1993 half the W60 fleet (and, iirc one of the maxis) had major delamination problems. There has always been a requirement to throttle back, in some conditions, to avoid risk of hull damage.

 

 

No rigs have fallen in this leg. But, Ador and Puma both lost rigs in leg one and Sanya almost lost hers later. Telephonica even had standing rigging issues. So, by your logic they should not have gone back to a proven dependable set of standing rigging. They should have just replaced with what they had and figured they over pushed the capabitlity of the entire design.

 

The failures race only stopped teams from racing or slowed them down. They have not required rescue. Previous iterations have required rescue and far more IMOCA boats have had to have their skippers rescued than Volvo or Whitbread boats.

 

It's about competition and how hard the teams are willing to push. If you don't like the risks these guys are taking, you don't have to sign up for a VO70 program. But, these guys keep coming back and are more than happy to push to and occassionaly beyond the edge. They are willing to accept that if they do need rescue, it's more than likely going to come from one of their competitors.

 

You both miss the point:

 

First, I'd like to say I'm fine with the guys taking the the usual and customary risks of offshore racing. Nothing that has transpired so far has been at all unusual or not customary for offshore racing. What I'm talking about is inflicting risks they didn't know they were taking when they stepped aboard. All the crew were/are very well aware of the risks.

 

They didn't knowingly take on a substantial risk of floating bulkheads, separating longitudinals and delaminating oil-canning panels. Yes, they did. (Those are always risks, sure, ones that should rank right alongside the risk of being struck by a falling meteor. Well, almost alongside.) KR is quite right about the need to watch the hull for damage - now that the issue has come to light. It would be stupid not to. But did he or anyone else expect to lose hull integrity under conditions that leave the rig standing when they started? Yes, they did. I think not. You think wrong. Did KR set a "ring frame-bulkhead-hull panel watch" from the start of leg 5? Yes, he did. I think not. You think wrong, again. Did KR learn from the experience of others? Thanks, yes. G4 same, I'm sure.

[/Quote]

 

Stepping into a life raft because the hull has come apart shouldn't be in the cards (unless there's a collision). These guys aren't that far, at this point, from that life raft and all the hazards of that step at 45-55S in 2 degree water - or lower.

 

Nobody is close to stepping into their life rafts.

 

Until their recent deterioration, we've heard that ADOR has been watching Camper (and maybe even shadowing them) in case things got to that point. Nobody was shadowing anybody. They are all watching each other (and watching out for each other). Can't say yet that they are still able to rescue themselves, much less Camper. No boat is close to requiring rescue.

 

Some people just have no clue...

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Just hope ADOR does not start to take on water and needs to be abandoned [thinking about Moviestar] and the crew rescued. Is there anyone out there at all who could come to their rescue?

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Ocean going ships? I don't know what the routes are relative to the position of the VO70s.

 

Don't know of too many commercial ships that would go around the horn. Isn't there normally a Chilean naval vessel around when the boats go past doing conveniently times 'exercises'

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Heading NNW at 4 knots when the breeze is coming from the west at 30 knots with a 5 mtr swell doesn't really suggest a pleasant experience...especially since they boat has been like that for the past 4 hrs at a minimum.

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Heading NNW at 4 knots when the breeze is coming from the west at 30 knots with a 5 mtr swell doesn't really suggest a pleasant experience...especially since they boat has been like that for the past 4 hrs at a minimum.

 

 

So how long does it take to "Assess damage"? Anyone have an idea?

 

Bueller?

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Just hope ADOR does not start to take on water and needs to be abandoned [thinking about Moviestar] and the crew rescued. Is there anyone out there at all who could come to their rescue?

campers only 300 miles away.....

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Abu Dhabi is definately hurting. For the 3rd report in a row, they are doing only 10-12 knots, in 34 knots wind. Must have broken something in their night crash.

 

 

Damn - I was looking forward to the race between them and Tele.

 

If that is true that is also going to be bad news for Camper. AD were there safety card.

 

 

Bit of delamination and there's a surprise. Looks like their best option will be join up with Camper on a ship and avoid any more nasty rough stuff. Won't be any confidence in the boat by now. So any bets on who does make it around without hopping onto a ship for leg?

Time to pull the plug on the race or rejig it with more sensible boats for the job - or even maybe force the crews to have some decent protection! The hard-ass attitude of 'we can take it' is plain dumb but then can't feel much sympathy seeing as they are getting good wedges out of it.

 

Agree 100%. What a joke this Volvo has been. So many breakages and issues. The boats if anything have gotten faster and less reliable, nothing learned so it seems. From whats left this leg I will enjoy watching G4 vs Puma in a match race to the finish..!

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Crap - that's scary. I hope ADOR's okay.

 

One only has to remember Movistar taking on water near Cape Horn, the boys putting on their survival suits, Chris Nich diving under the water to fuse some water pumps to keep them afloat. At least 2 of the Movistar crew said they would never sail on this boat again. There were some hard questions asked, not sure they have to this day been answered..! :ph34r:

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Just hope ADOR does not start to take on water and needs to be abandoned [thinking about Moviestar] and the crew rescued. Is there anyone out there at all who could come to their rescue?

campers only 300 miles away.....

 

I doubt they could turn around given that they have to avoid any slamming. Would be hard going into 30 knots of breeze without slamming.

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Thinking hypothetically regarding ADOR’s situation:

 

Broken mast: I don’t think you would drift to windward with a broken mast, especially at 4 knots.

Rudder Damage: Unless they broke both rudders, you would hope that after 6 hours they would be under some sort of control by now

MOB: You would see some sort of tracking, not just a constant drift NNW at 4 knots

Major personnel or hull/keel problem: Boat ‘hove to’ while they assess or rectify the situation. Storm jib on one side and rudder on full lock to the other with the boat trying to go to windward (NNW)

 

Unsure where the comms are located on Assam, but we saw a communication failure on Sanya when their rear section had water ingress.

 

Just throwing suggestions out the window here. Really keen to know WTF is going on.

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Just hope ADOR does not start to take on water and needs to be abandoned [thinking about Moviestar] and the crew rescued. Is there anyone out there at all who could come to their rescue?

campers only 300 miles away.....

 

With significant damage of their own, 300 nm to windward the the roaring forties would be a challenge. Let's hope they aren't needed.

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from VOR facebook page 13 hours ago.

 

Abu Dhabi Ocean Racing have slowed down to give themselves an opportunity to make a damage assessment after the team's racing yacht Azzam suffered some delamination to the hull. All crew are safe and well.

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Just hope ADOR does not start to take on water and needs to be abandoned [thinking about Moviestar] and the crew rescued. Is there anyone out there at all who could come to their rescue?

campers only 300 miles away.....

 

With significant damage of their own, 300 nm to windward the the roaring forties would be a challenge. Let's hope they aren't needed.

 

I spoke in haste. By the tracker, Camper is 466 nm to the east of ADOR at last report. That's a long beat! One they aren't well prepared to make.

 

Just saying.

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"Abu Dhabi suffered hull damage overnight and are expected to head to South Africa to make repairs"

 

 

I m sure they mean South America!!

 

 

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=10795588

 

 

Crap VOR site. always 24 hrs late.

 

That doesnt give a huge amout of information. South America is a big place. Dont forget the race finishes in South America.

 

The VOR website suggests they were slowing to look at damage but nothing more.

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"Abu Dhabi suffered hull damage overnight and are expected to head to South Africa to make repairs"

 

 

I m sure they mean South America!!

 

 

http://www.nzherald....jectid=10795588

 

 

Crap VOR site. always 24 hrs late.

 

And now the race site takes a crap on the data for wind and instant speed. Shit, Abu Dhabi is floundering around in the southern ocean in the middle of no where better than 1500 NM from land and the VOR site can't tell us anything?

 

This is a pile of crap! Knute ought to go into the web guys hut and crush his gameboy/X-box 360 and tell him he better do his job of informing the world!

 

The world waits Mr. Frostad!

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now ADOR showing 0.00 kn for instant speed...hope it is just their instruments malfunctioning!

 

 

So is everyone else. VOR site is totally unreliable. The families of the Abu Dhabi guys must be terribly worried at this point.

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now ADOR showing 0.00 kn for instant speed...hope it is just their instruments malfunctioning!

The families of the Abu Dhabi guys must be terribly worried at this point.

 

Do you really think so?

 

VOR HQ & ADOR HQ would be informed first if any problems then their people would speak to families, and then the journo's

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"Abu Dhabi suffered hull damage overnight and are expected to head to South Africa to make repairs"

 

I m sure they mean South America!!

 

http://www.nzherald....jectid=10795588

 

Crap VOR site. always 24 hrs late.

 

Nico seems to be getting the hang of this PR thing.;)

I think fighting for 3rd is a bit of s stretch though...

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ADOR will be waiting until first light to assess the damage and that will not be for another 6 hours.

 

They crash tacked last night. They have been heading the wrong direction for the last three schedules before the latest update. They have had all day to assess damage. Again I ask, how long does this assessment take?

 

I think they hove too and coordinated with their shore crew about fixes and repairs ashore possibilities. I hate to see this unfolding in such slow motion, there is nothing we can do but wait and hope for the best for Ian and his men.

 

So sad, so very, very sad.

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ADOR will be waiting until first light to assess the damage and that will not be for another 6 hours.

 

When the 'damage' was done it was well and truly light.

They may be waiting to assess a repair, but with multiple communication methods on board I seriously doubt that the no-one knows what is happening.

While I kind of wish I knew more about their status I can understand why entertaining the masses is the last thing anyone might be worried about.

9.3kts suggests they have at least got a sail up.

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"Abu Dhabi suffered hull damage overnight and are expected to head to South Africa to make repairs"

 

I m sure they mean South America!!

 

http://www.nzherald....jectid=10795588

 

Crap VOR site. always 24 hrs late.

 

Nico seems to be getting the hang of this PR thing.;)

I think fighting for 3rd is a bit of s stretch though...

 

Yeah 3rd is a far stretch....I think abu will also be heading for Porto Mont. There is not much between there and cape horn. Might be a race for 4th and 5th.

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The VOR site shows ADOR on a heading of 032 deg. on what appears to a beam reach. What's that all about? Trying to get north of the wx systems? At least they are showing some movement, at around 10 kt. It doesn't look good for them yet. Until they can head east, they can't make way toward a port.

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ADOR will be waiting until first light to assess the damage and that will not be for another 6 hours.

 

AFIK, they were waiting for "first light" 14 hours ago and when they were stopped on the tracker it should have been light. https://www.facebook.com/AbuDhabiOceanRacing

 

In the list of VOR priorities getting word out to the general public may be a bit down the list. But, I don't think I'm alone in being worried about the health and welfare of the ADOR crew. An "all is well" tweet or something would be very nice to see.

 

The data is a bit messy on the tracker at the moment but ADOR is underway again according to it.

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Reuters UK and NZ report:

 

...

The other four other boats in the fleet have or will need pitstops at safe haven ports in New Zealand, Chile and Argentina for urgent repairs.

 

Abu Dhabi (hull and sail mounting), Telefonica (hull), Camper (hull) and China's Team Sanya (rudder) are all out of contention to win the leg, with the latter already retiring to return to New Zealand for major work.

 

 

 

http://www.euronews.com/sport/1462422-battered-volvo-race-survivors-approach-cape-horn/

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The world waits Mr. Frostad!

 

shirley yer not cereus?

 

Pro athletes = Entertainers

 

Show promoters are conduits to information and results. Knute is a promoter of the VOR and a good one at that.

 

I just want more information when it is available. Not every 12 hours or whenever VOR headquarters sees fit.

 

And quit calling me "Shirley". LOL

 

 

 

P.S. I am sure everything on ADOR is under control............or at least I hope so.

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"More to come shortly… we may have a little situation. Nick"

 

Attn Nick,

 

I could have told you there was a problem 9 hours ago when you were POINTING NORTH NORTH WEST DOING 4 KNOTS.

 

Regards

 

Mr Shore

 

 

But in all seriousness, i wonder if the front fell off?

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http://new.livestrea...statuses/395283

"More to come shortly… we may have a little situation. Nick"

41.5kts before the fun stopped - crazy.

 

I know that's brand new on "Live stream" but it only makes sense to me if it's yesterday's report... We had the "big speed" report about 24 hours ago and the "suspect a problem with the port midships" a few hours after than and they've been slow or hove to for much of the remaining time. All a bit confusing. Good to see them underway again on the tracker at least though.

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http://new.livestrea...statuses/395283

"More to come shortly… we may have a little situation. Nick"

41.5kts before the fun stopped - crazy.

 

I know that's brand new on "Live stream" but it only makes sense to me if it's yesterday's report... We had the "big speed" report about 24 hours ago and the "suspect a problem with the port midships" a few hours after than and they've been slow or hove to for much of the remaining time. All a bit confusing. Good to see them underway again on the tracker at least though.

 

We are now Day 12 so yes, it's yesterday's report.

I wonder how much the boats really know about what the other are up to - less than us keen observers?

Would anyone here think 41.5kts was a good idea yesterday?

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Just caught up on the last 12 hours of comments.

It amazes me that we have one report from ADOR that they are slowing to assess a delam and the resulting speculation is anything from MOB to the boat sinking. In all likelyhood it will be damage forward of the forward watertight bulkhead. In a worst case scenario that can be sealed off and the emergency bilge pumps connected through the bulkhead skin fittings and up to 500 litres per minute pumped overboard. Move all the weight aft and head for a safe haven.

From memory Brian Thompson said that on BPV they had to back off throughout the Southern Ocean and keeping the boat under 40 knots was a priority. It seems insane that ADOR seemed to ignore this and with a boat 60ish feet shorter with a far bigger slamming area just went gungho into it! Of course the boat will break!! what do they expect?

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Just caught up on the last 12 hours of comments.

It amazes me that we have one report from ADOR that they are slowing to assess a delam and the resulting speculation is anything from MOB to the boat sinking. In all likelyhood it will be damage forward of the forward watertight bulkhead. In a worst case scenario that can be sealed off and the emergency bilge pumps connected through the bulkhead skin fittings and up to 500 litres per minute pumped overboard. Move all the weight aft and head for a safe haven.

From memory Brian Thompson said that on BPV they had to back off throughout the Southern Ocean and keeping the boat under 40 knots was a priority. It seems insane that ADOR seemed to ignore this and with a boat 60ish feet shorter with a far bigger slamming area just went gungho into it! Of course the boat will break!! what do they expect?

 

There was some post somewhere talking about a problem "midships" which would lead to a different scenario fitting with their "addiction" to port tack.

 

Edit: this is on their facebook account and they say "port-side mid-ship" !

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Just caught up on the last 12 hours of comments.

It amazes me that we have one report from ADOR that they are slowing to assess a delam and the resulting speculation is anything from MOB to the boat sinking. In all likelyhood it will be damage forward of the forward watertight bulkhead. In a worst case scenario that can be sealed off and the emergency bilge pumps connected through the bulkhead skin fittings and up to 500 litres per minute pumped overboard. Move all the weight aft and head for a safe haven.

From memory Brian Thompson said that on BPV they had to back off throughout the Southern Ocean and keeping the boat under 40 knots was a priority. It seems insane that ADOR seemed to ignore this and with a boat 60ish feet shorter with a far bigger slamming area just went gungho into it! Of course the boat will break!! what do they expect?

 

From FB page:

 

News Update: We have slowed to inspect an area of the hull where some suspected delamination had occurred port side mid-ship. With 35 knots winds, four-metre seas and pitch black conditions, we've decided to wait until fully light to assess the extent of any damage and what actions, if any, will be taken.

 

All are safe and well onboard. We will provide further information as it becomes available. Wish us luck!

 

end quote

 

OK, old news by now, but still obviously very pertinent. They are sailing (with the front still on) so this is not a dismasting or MOB. Nico seems to indicate he is aware of their plight and has not been rerouted by HQ. Yes, they would reroute a boat if lives were in danger. And yes, Camper would not hesitate to act. The may or may not be staying on one tack, my feeling is that is probably a very insightful observation.

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Just caught up on the last 12 hours of comments.

It amazes me that we have one report from ADOR that they are slowing to assess a delam and the resulting speculation is anything from MOB to the boat sinking. In all likelyhood it will be damage forward of the forward watertight bulkhead. In a worst case scenario that can be sealed off and the emergency bilge pumps connected through the bulkhead skin fittings and up to 500 litres per minute pumped overboard. Move all the weight aft and head for a safe haven.

From memory Brian Thompson said that on BPV they had to back off throughout the Southern Ocean and keeping the boat under 40 knots was a priority. It seems insane that ADOR seemed to ignore this and with a boat 60ish feet shorter with a far bigger slamming area just went gungho into it! Of course the boat will break!! what do they expect?

 

+1!

Finally a voice of sanity amidst all those SA drama queens.

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Just caught up on the last 12 hours of comments.

It amazes me that we have one report from ADOR that they are slowing to assess a delam and the resulting speculation is anything from MOB to the boat sinking. In all likelyhood it will be damage forward of the forward watertight bulkhead. In a worst case scenario that can be sealed off and the emergency bilge pumps connected through the bulkhead skin fittings and up to 500 litres per minute pumped overboard. Move all the weight aft and head for a safe haven.

From memory Brian Thompson said that on BPV they had to back off throughout the Southern Ocean and keeping the boat under 40 knots was a priority. It seems insane that ADOR seemed to ignore this and with a boat 60ish feet shorter with a far bigger slamming area just went gungho into it! Of course the boat will break!! what do they expect?

 

There was some post somewhere talking about a problem "midships" which would lead to a different scenario fitting with their "addiction" to port tack.

 

Edit: this is on their facebook account and they say "port-side mid-ship" !

 

 

Thanks for the update. After the Movistar issues in the 2005-2006 race the rule was modified so that if the mid compartment flooded the watertight doors either side could be closed and they would cope with the water pressures and free surface effect from either side of the hatches. I believe the hatch requirements were based on the design criteria for the RNLI lifeboats. If the compartment aft of the mast is the one that is breached then the hatches to the aft compartment and at the mast can be closed. The generator is in the front so the pumps can be kept running and power to the systems maintained. Not comfortable, but not close to time to step up into the life rafts.

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Just caught up on the last 12 hours of comments.

It amazes me that we have one report from ADOR that they are slowing to assess a delam and the resulting speculation is anything from MOB to the boat sinking. In all likelyhood it will be damage forward of the forward watertight bulkhead. In a worst case scenario that can be sealed off and the emergency bilge pumps connected through the bulkhead skin fittings and up to 500 litres per minute pumped overboard. Move all the weight aft and head for a safe haven.

From memory Brian Thompson said that on BPV they had to back off throughout the Southern Ocean and keeping the boat under 40 knots was a priority. It seems insane that ADOR seemed to ignore this and with a boat 60ish feet shorter with a far bigger slamming area just went gungho into it! Of course the boat will break!! what do they expect?

 

+1!

Finally a voice of sanity amidst all those SA drama queens.

From here

 

41.5 KNOTS. New top speed for Azzam set by Rob Greenhalgh today. Two reefs, the J4 and one huge mother of a wave made up the recipe for our top speed. “It was not really our intention to be hitting speeds like this, we have at least another 4 days of this weather and we certainly do not want to damage the boat or people right now.” said Rob while eating his lunch. The conditions that Rob is referring to are similar to what the rest of the fleet has been seeing for almost a week now. ... More to come shortly… we may have a little situation. Nick

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Just caught up on the last 12 hours of comments.

It amazes me that we have one report from ADOR that they are slowing to assess a delam and the resulting speculation is anything from MOB to the boat sinking. In all likelyhood it will be damage forward of the forward watertight bulkhead. In a worst case scenario that can be sealed off and the emergency bilge pumps connected through the bulkhead skin fittings and up to 500 litres per minute pumped overboard. Move all the weight aft and head for a safe haven.

From memory Brian Thompson said that on BPV they had to back off throughout the Southern Ocean and keeping the boat under 40 knots was a priority. It seems insane that ADOR seemed to ignore this and with a boat 60ish feet shorter with a far bigger slamming area just went gungho into it! Of course the boat will break!! what do they expect?

 

There was some post somewhere talking about a problem "midships" which would lead to a different scenario fitting with their "addiction" to port tack.

 

Edit: this is on their facebook account and they say "port-side mid-ship" !

 

 

Thanks for the update. After the Movistar issues in the 2005-2006 race the rule was modified so that if the mid compartment flooded the watertight doors either side could be closed and they would cope with the water pressures and free surface effect from either side of the hatches. I believe the hatch requirements were based on the design criteria for the RNLI lifeboats. If the compartment aft of the mast is the one that is breached then the hatches to the aft compartment and at the mast can be closed. The generator is in the front so the pumps can be kept running and power to the systems maintained. Not comfortable, but not close to time to step up into the life rafts.

 

Good info thks, "midships" is not very precise and there are some complicated areas nearby where a delam may hamper sailing without affecting integrity too much.

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Aft of keel, port side. Not sure how close to keel.

Strange part of the boat to impact. As STYacht notes, they were apparently trying to back off, but having the same speed limit on a V70 as on BPV seems a little extreme to me.

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now ADOR showing 0.00 kn for instant speed...hope it is just their instruments malfunctioning!

 

 

So is everyone else. VOR site is totally unreliable. The families of the Abu Dhabi guys must be terribly worried at this point.

 

Where have you been since the start? Off course it's not reliable, thats why you jump on SA to get the real updates. Have you been watching the Simpsons.? LOL :rolleyes:

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The most likely outcome here is Groupama 1st, Puma 2nd, Telefonica 3rd, Camper 4th, Epic Fail Abu Dhabi last (Not counting Sanya, who don't count). Great to see G4 and Puma close the gap to make this an interesting race, when really it's a huge failure.

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http://www.volvoocea...n-business.html

 

Abu Dhabi Ocean Racing pulled off a heroic repair operation in the depths of the Southern Ocean after discovering delamination in their hull.

In order to carry out the repair, the crew had to slow the boat to a standstill and tilt it onto its side in heavy weather so bowman Justin Slattery, lowered overboard secured to a rope and in full safety gear, could tighten the bolts on the outside of the hull.Skipper Ian Walker supervised an incredible five-hour job that saw 30 bolts screwed through the hull of Abu Dhabi's boat Azzam (which means 'determination' in Arabic) to prevent further damage.

 

Inside the hull, boat captain Wade Morgan and watch leader Craig Satterthwaite braced the damaged section with parts ripped from the boats bunks, stacking system and lockers.

 

"We've basically joined the skins back together with a mechanical fixing," Walker said.

 

"At the moment it's been much improved, we've got much less noise and it seems fairly strong.

 

"We're still taking it quite easy right now."

 

The damage was discovered in darkness, so the crew waited for daylight to effect repairs.

 

Walker praised the work of his crew, who carried out the repair in 30-knot winds and big seas, around 1,700 miles from land.

 

"Like always, these things bring the best out in the team and everybody played a role," he added.

 

"Rob Greenhalgh ran everything on deck keeping everything steady.

 

"Wade and Craig oversaw the repairs down below and Justin Slattery was the man over the side on the halyard tightening the bolts.

 

"Everyone else was helping, there was a lot of stuff going on."

 

It's the second major repair the Abu Dhabi crew have had to carry out in Leg 5 from Auckland, New Zealand, to Itajaí, Brazil.

 

The team chose to return to Auckland within hours of starting the leg to repair structural damage to a bulkhead in the bow.

 

Walker said he was in talks with his team about how to progress, and that all options were open.

 

"The message is we're in good shape," he said.

 

"Right now we're sailing with two people on deck, everyone else is down below resting.

 

"We're making good progress towards the Chilean coast at the moment, north east away from the worst of the incoming weather."

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http://www.volvoocea...n-business.html

 

Abu Dhabi Ocean Racing pulled off a heroic repair operation in the depths of the Southern Ocean after discovering delamination in their hull.

In order to carry out the repair, the crew had to slow the boat to a standstill and tilt it onto its side in heavy weather so bowman Justin Slattery, lowered overboard secured to a rope and in full safety gear, could tighten the bolts on the outside of the hull.Skipper Ian Walker supervised an incredible five-hour job that saw 30 bolts screwed through the hull of Abu Dhabi's boat Azzam (which means 'determination' in Arabic) to prevent further damage.

 

Inside the hull, boat captain Wade Morgan and watch leader Craig Satterthwaite braced the damaged section with parts ripped from the boats bunks, stacking system and lockers.

 

"We've basically joined the skins back together with a mechanical fixing," Walker said.

 

"At the moment it's been much improved, we've got much less noise and it seems fairly strong.

 

"We're still taking it quite easy right now."

 

The damage was discovered in darkness, so the crew waited for daylight to effect repairs.

 

Walker praised the work of his crew, who carried out the repair in 30-knot winds and big seas, around 1,700 miles from land.

 

"Like always, these things bring the best out in the team and everybody played a role," he added.

 

"Rob Greenhalgh ran everything on deck keeping everything steady.

 

"Wade and Craig oversaw the repairs down below and Justin Slattery was the man over the side on the halyard tightening the bolts.

 

"Everyone else was helping, there was a lot of stuff going on."

 

It's the second major repair the Abu Dhabi crew have had to carry out in Leg 5 from Auckland, New Zealand, to Itajaí, Brazil.

 

The team chose to return to Auckland within hours of starting the leg to repair structural damage to a bulkhead in the bow.

 

Walker said he was in talks with his team about how to progress, and that all options were open.

 

"The message is we're in good shape," he said.

 

"Right now we're sailing with two people on deck, everyone else is down below resting.

 

"We're making good progress towards the Chilean coast at the moment, north east away from the worst of the incoming weather."

 

Great to hear but when you are coming last and have already returned to port one must question the management of the boat in these conditions. Other than some of the in port races, Abu Dhabi have been a failure. Without pointing the finger it's clear the boat is not as fast as the opposition and despite having some very good guys on board will be deemed a dissappointment from within the educated sailing circles. Huge Kudos to the guys on board who have kept this boat in the race despite the consistent dissappointments.

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Great to hear but when you are coming last and have already returned to port one must question the management of the boat in these conditions. Other than some of the in port races, Abu Dhabi have been a failure. Without pointing the finger it's clear the boat is not as fast as the opposition and despite having some very good guys on board will be deemed a dissappointment from within the educated sailing circles. Huge Kudos to the guys on board who have kept this boat in the race despite the consistent dissappointments.

 

 

have to say they have shown they have no idea of how to look after the boat - its got to be the worst boat for slamming in the entire fleet and dropped its mast out from possibly not backing off first night out, now this from doing the yeehaars down the S Ocean when they've already had a structural failure. Ballsy maybe, but no brains involved. Now they are paying for it.

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