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    • UnderDawg

      A Few Simple Rules   05/22/2017

      Sailing Anarchy is a very lightly moderated site. This is by design, to afford a more free atmosphere for discussion. There are plenty of sailing forums you can go to where swearing isn't allowed, confrontation is squelched and, and you can have a moderator finger-wag at you for your attitude. SA tries to avoid that and allow for more adult behavior without moderators editing your posts and whacking knuckles with rulers. We don't have a long list of published "thou shalt nots" either, and this is by design. Too many absolute rules paints us into too many corners. So check the Terms of Service - there IS language there about certain types of behavior that is not permitted. We interpret that lightly and permit a lot of latitude, but we DO reserve the right to take action when something is too extreme to tolerate (too racist, graphic, violent, misogynistic, etc.). Yes, that is subjective, but it allows us discretion. Avoiding a laundry list of rules allows for freedom; don't abuse it. However there ARE a few basic rules that will earn you a suspension, and apparently a brief refresher is in order. 1) Allegations of pedophilia - there is no tolerance for this. So if you make allegations, jokes, innuendo or suggestions about child molestation, child pornography, abuse or inappropriate behavior with minors etc. about someone on this board you will get a time out. This is pretty much automatic; this behavior can have real world effect and is not acceptable. Obviously the subject is not banned when discussion of it is apropos, e.g. talking about an item in the news for instance. But allegations or references directed at or about another poster is verboten. 2) Outing people - providing real world identifiable information about users on the forums who prefer to remain anonymous. Yes, some of us post with our real names - not a problem to use them. However many do NOT, and if you find out someone's name keep it to yourself, first or last. This also goes for other identifying information too - employer information etc. You don't need too many pieces of data to figure out who someone really is these days. Depending on severity you might get anything from a scolding to a suspension - so don't do it. I know it can be confusing sometimes for newcomers, as SA has been around almost twenty years and there are some people that throw their real names around and their current Display Name may not match the name they have out in the public. But if in doubt, you don't want to accidentally out some one so use caution, even if it's a personal friend of yours in real life. 3) Posting While Suspended - If you've earned a timeout (these are fairly rare and hard to get), please observe the suspension. If you create a new account (a "Sock Puppet") and return to the forums to post with it before your suspension is up you WILL get more time added to your original suspension and lose your Socks. This behavior may result a permanent ban, since it shows you have zero respect for the few rules we have and the moderating team that is tasked with supporting them. Check the Terms of Service you agreed to; they apply to the individual agreeing, not the account you created, so don't try to Sea Lawyer us if you get caught. Just don't do it. Those are the three that will almost certainly get you into some trouble. IF YOU SEE SOMEONE DO ONE OF THESE THINGS, please do the following: Refrain from quoting the offending text, it makes the thread cleanup a pain in the rear Press the Report button; it is by far the best way to notify Admins as we will get e-mails. Calling out for Admins in the middle of threads, sending us PM's, etc. - there is no guarantee we will get those in a timely fashion. There are multiple Moderators in multiple time zones around the world, and anyone one of us can handle the Report and all of us will be notified about it. But if you PM one Mod directly and he's off line, the problem will get dealt with much more slowly. Other behaviors that you might want to think twice before doing include: Intentionally disrupting threads and discussions repeatedly. Off topic/content free trolling in threads to disrupt dialog Stalking users around the forums with the intent to disrupt content and discussion Repeated posting of overly graphic or scatological porn content. There are plenty web sites for you to get your freak on, don't do it here. And a brief note to Newbies... No, we will not ban people or censor them for dropping F-bombs on you, using foul language, etc. so please don't report it when one of our members gives you a greeting you may find shocking. We do our best not to censor content here and playing swearword police is not in our job descriptions. Sailing Anarchy is more like a bar than a classroom, so handle it like you would meeting someone a little coarse - don't look for the teacher. Thanks.

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CARBONINIT

VOR Leg 5

2,151 posts in this topic

"My understanding is that the bulkhead in question is not structural to the boat per se, rather it just gives the the requisite strongpoint"

 

In other words, it's an essential structural element... if you want to use that sail as intended

 

I think it would have been a very hard repair to effect at sea in those conditions. It's the roughest part of the boat, and bailing wire and duct tape won't do when carefully laid up carbon fiber and epoxy are called for...

 

No matter what other drivel we might read on here, this comment is right on. There is just no way that Groupama or even Tele would have turned around and taken all that mileage on the chin. No way. They want to win too goddamned much to just fork over free miles without a fight. Cammas is an engineer and they would have gotten out the duct tape and bailing wire and made do.

 

My understanding is that the bulkhead in question is not structural to the boat per se, rather it just gives the the requisite strongpoint, via a strop up to the deck, to mount the tack of the much-desired-on-this-leg J4. Yes, it sucks that it popped out. But for thousands of years sailors have jury-rigged stuff at sea. Worst comes to worse, carry the J4 on the regular jib tack -- it's only 3-4 feet forward of the J4 tack -- while the epoxy dries. Yes, ADOR would have gone a little slower with their sail rigged incorrectly for those hours. They were not in physical danger as a result of the failure (which would always be cause for heading for port); the boat just wouldn't go as fast without the J4 set up correctly. And yes, the boat is hugely bouncing around and effecting a repair up in the bow would have been a huge pain in the neck.

 

But for crying out loud, they have just given up 600 MILES!!! That is insane. It's not even yacht racing. I don't know what to call it. I mean, literally, why even bother?

 

 

 

As one of the other posters said, they could have used another tack fitting. The J4 tack fitting is a couple/few feet back from the stem. They could have used the fitting right at the stem, and hoisted the J4 from there. Sure, it is not the correct way to fly the sail and it will be angled back a few degrees and the lead position has to be moved forward somehow, but you have to be kidding if they thought it was worth 600 miles. If they lost one knot of boat speed and used the J4 constantly, 600 miles is almost a month of sailing. Additionally, they have several other sails to choose from. Anyhow, surely there would be at least one relatively smooth day and they could have glued the bulkhead back in. To your question, the boat doesn't need one of those bulkheads in order to stay together, it just transfers the load for the tack fitting there into the hull. I realize this is a pretty scary leg, but that's just hyperconservatism on Abu Dhabi's part -- not even close to a good enough reason to turn back and lose so much mileage.

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As one of the other posters said, they could have used another tack fitting. The J4 tack fitting is a couple/few feet back from the stem. They could have used the fitting right at the stem, and hoisted the J4 from there. Sure, it is not the correct way to fly the sail and it will be angled back a few degrees and the lead position has to be moved forward somehow, but you have to be kidding if they thought it was worth 600 miles. If they lost one knot of boat speed and used the J4 constantly, 600 miles is almost a month of sailing. Additionally, they have several other sails to choose from. Anyhow, surely there would be at least one relatively smooth day and they could have glued the bulkhead back in. To your question, the boat doesn't need one of those bulkheads in order to stay together, it just transfers the load for the tack fitting there into the hull. I realize this is a pretty scary leg, but that's just hyperconservatism on Abu Dhabi's part -- not even close to a good enough reason to turn back and lose so much mileage.

 

Wow, thanks for sharing your brilliance with us!

 

/Didn't realize I'd asked a question.

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What a manic couple of days. Crazy sailing.

 

I hope the Puma blokes are OK.

 

It will be interesting to see how far south they get before they get to turn the corner.

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That's only the distance from Lands End to John o Groats!

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Abu back on track ,from 600 to 400 thats more like it. Now get that friggin hammer down.

 

Yesterday night the deficit was up to something like 750 miles, now it seems to be something like 400 - is this the f****d up way VOR report these things, because it doesn't look like they have been going 29kts quicker than the other boats overnight?!

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Abu back on track ,from 600 to 400 thats more like it. Now get that friggin hammer down.

 

Yesterday night the deficit was up to something like 750 miles, now it seems to be something like 400 - is this the f****d up way VOR report these things, because it doesn't look like they have been going 29kts quicker than the other boats overnight?!

Whatever the actual truth of the matter I have never yet seen a Round the World Race that gets it completely right. I can only guess that the maths is pretty complex, adn obviously always depends upon where they are mesuring to.

 

Looking at the weather I think Abu may have just caught a break and will have a faster next 24 hours than the rest of the fleet with an easier transition. We could see that mileage drop dramatically in the next 24 hrs. That said, when you are chasing it is always likely that they will get away again, and Abu Dhabi have not exactly shown that they are likely to catch up and lead...

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Abu will win this leg ,does it matter if I get it wrong ! does it shit.And while we are on the subject of shit,It must be very hard to have a dump at those speeds.Would you go over the back or down below.Over the back does have its advantages , no paper required. Film that Volvo.

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Abu Dhabi will be loving this. There's a 1000 mile long high pressure road block in front of the fleet. It's a dream come true if you're trying to play catch up. By the time they get to where the fleet is now the high will have moved north and they can cut the corner in a big way.

 

Camper and Telefonica should slowly dial up to keep rumble on as the pressure drops. It'll be interesting to see if either Groupama or Puma try to cut the corner.

 

Camper are taking the longer, faster route - might work, might not. It's very hard to judge how fast a system like that is moving. The Kiwis will be able to heat up a bit as the breeze drops off and may gain some miles back. Once on the other side of the system they'll also be able to put the bow down more. Trade off is that they sail further.

 

I'd say there will be some big losers and winners in the next 12 hours.

 

Telefonica are very well positioned, as lead boat they have to aim for the point where they can make the best transition and hope for the best. They handle the pressure of these situations very well - a bit of a tactical education for those of us that love our ocean racing.

 

It's fun to follow this race.

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As one of the other posters said, they could have used another tack fitting. The J4 tack fitting is a couple/few feet back from the stem. They could have used the fitting right at the stem, and hoisted the J4 from there. Sure, it is not the correct way to fly the sail and it will be angled back a few degrees and the lead position has to be moved forward somehow, but you have to be kidding if they thought it was worth 600 miles. If they lost one knot of boat speed and used the J4 constantly, 600 miles is almost a month of sailing. Additionally, they have several other sails to choose from. Anyhow, surely there would be at least one relatively smooth day and they could have glued the bulkhead back in. To your question, the boat doesn't need one of those bulkheads in order to stay together, it just transfers the load for the tack fitting there into the hull. I realize this is a pretty scary leg, but that's just hyperconservatism on Abu Dhabi's part -- not even close to a good enough reason to turn back and lose so much mileage.

 

 

The reason for turning back as explained by Ian Walker; http://www.thenation...and-for-repairs

Only the finish line will show if it was a right decision...

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Posted on Facebook 7mins ago from VOR:

 

Race followers may have noted some anomalies in race data today. The sea state has affected the transmission of data from Abu Dhabi Ocean Racing, resulting in inaccurate measurements overnight. In combination with this an adjustment of the ice limits distorted the distance to leader and finish data. We have since amended the way we calculate this data, which should solve the problem.

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As one of the other posters said, they could have used another tack fitting. The J4 tack fitting is a couple/few feet back from the stem. They could have used the fitting right at the stem, and hoisted the J4 from there. Sure, it is not the correct way to fly the sail and it will be angled back a few degrees and the lead position has to be moved forward somehow, but you have to be kidding if they thought it was worth 600 miles. If they lost one knot of boat speed and used the J4 constantly, 600 miles is almost a month of sailing. Additionally, they have several other sails to choose from. Anyhow, surely there would be at least one relatively smooth day and they could have glued the bulkhead back in. To your question, the boat doesn't need one of those bulkheads in order to stay together, it just transfers the load for the tack fitting there into the hull. I realize this is a pretty scary leg, but that's just hyperconservatism on Abu Dhabi's part -- not even close to a good enough reason to turn back and lose so much mileage.

 

 

The reason for turning back as explained by Ian Walker; http://www.thenation...and-for-repairs

Only the finish line will show if it was a right decision...

 

Well there you go, Bubsy wasn't confident about glueing it back in at sea in the conditions, it had damaged systems around the area, likely to be in the J4 for 80% of the leg. Had they been a week in, they'd have (had to) carried on.

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Well there you go, Bubsy wasn't confident about glueing it back in at sea in the conditions, it had damaged systems around the area, likely to be in the J4 for 80% of the leg. Had they been a week in, they'd have (had to) carried on.

 

After breaking a mast in Leg1 with the J4 up... would you tackle the southern ocean with J4 bulkhead glued back in place in those sea conditions?

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Hi Paradox or Expedition, can you please do another Expedition run with the current (present) forecast and positions. Inquiring minds and all that... Very keen to see what the ridge means for ADOR and what impact the new ice sidelines mean routing-wise.

 

Thanks very much. :)

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Well there you go, Bubsy wasn't confident about glueing it back in at sea in the conditions, it had damaged systems around the area, likely to be in the J4 for 80% of the leg. Had they been a week in, they'd have (had to) carried on.

 

After breaking a mast in Leg1 with the J4 up... would you tackle the southern ocean with J4 bulkhead glued back in place in those sea conditions?

 

I have to agree with you, you'd have to be pretty certain it was a spot on job to trust it if done at sea and as we know, it's never that when done in those conditions.

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Hi Paradox or Expedition, can you please do another Expedition run with the current (present) forecast and positions. Inquiring minds and all that... Very keen to see what the ridge means for ADOR and what impact the new ice sidelines mean routing-wise.

 

Thanks very much. :)

 

Are you sure you need it? You can't just picture them sailing through the soft zone and then tearing off to the ice gate?

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Ok - here is Camper route. Same caveat - dodgy polars, no currents, GFS model, etc.

 

It's going to be awesome once they break through the light patch.

 

The route is still saying to skirt the ice gate. Going more north will force them to sail further at hotter angles.

 

post-8605-031820800 1332241381_thumb.jpg

 

Edit - wind shown is now, look at the barbs on the route for the predicted weather.

 

Usually any forecast outside of 2 days is complete fantasy!

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Iker & Xabi training 49er just 2 days after arrival in Auckland... (sorry in spanish) http://nauta360.expansion.com/2012/03/16/volvo_ocean_race/1331903365.html

 

This may be their last olympics and they are doig their best to be there in good condition. Even if your body ask for some rest after Leg 4 :blink:

One of the dudes who beat Iker and Xabi to the gold the last go in China just hopped on Sanya for the in-port and leg 4.

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Stu Bannatyne: "Without a shadow of a doubt that was the hardest opening night of a Volvo leg I have ever done."

from here. OK, so it was pretty full on.

 

He actually said one of the toughest, not the toughest.

 

Right, went back and heard same. I named my source at least...

I think somebody else was quoted as saying it was the worst 24 hr period he'd had. Yep, it was Nico here

 

Just sayin' it has been pretty full on. I can tell you few boats in the world can take that kind of beating.

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Anyone agrees that if Groupama wins this leg from Telephonica they make a good chance for the overall win?

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Anyone agrees that if Groupama wins this leg from Telephonica they make a good chance for the overall win?

 

Agreed and hope so!

 

My bet for first to Western Ice Limit:

1. Tele

2. Groupama

3. Puma

4. Camper (- and there will be NO excuse of a slower boat)

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Tompe Johanson has a dislocated shoulder on Puma. What a bummer and probably quite hard to relocate while the boat is banging in heavy seas!

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Tompe Johanson has a dislocated shoulder on Puma. What a bummer and probably quite hard to relocate while the boat is banging in heavy seas!

 

He's back and at it actually. Saw a report where he actually went back on the helm. That's some grit.

 

Casey Smith, though, doesn't sound so good. Backs don't usually heal up that quickly. So, apparently, he may be chucked at the Horn.

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Camper seems to be better positioned going into the high. Be interesting to see the next couple of scheds, see what position they are in when the breeze kicks in 12-18 hours from now.

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Anyone agrees that if Groupama wins this leg from Telephonica they make a good chance for the overall win?

 

Agreed and hope so!

 

My bet for first to Western Ice Limit:

1. Tele

2. Groupama

3. Puma

4. Camper (- and there will be NO excuse of a slower boat)

 

Yep, I think they are the best bet to beat Tlf for the overall. Cool, low-key crew.

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Telefonica would have broken the masthead but has repaired this morning.

Cape: "...We broke our masthead unit and lost windspeed and direction and stuff for a bit, but we replaced that today, but that was no problem."

 

Edit: and added: "We’ve been very lucky"

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Camper will soon have to start picking fights with Sanya instead of the pack. They can't be THAT bad sailors. Some of it has to be the boat! This is just plain sad :(

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Abu will win this leg ,does it matter if I get it wrong ! does it shit.And while we are on the subject of shit,It must be very hard to have a dump at those speeds.Would you go over the back or down below.Over the back does have its advantages , no paper required. Film that Volvo.

 

Baring ones behind over the back of a VOR 70 in those conditions would take some kahunas. Mind you at least you would'nt have to worry about ending up with clagnuts...... or your kahunas either for that matter. laugh.gif

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Anyone get the inside info on the report sent from Measurers to Jury the other day? Something about Telefonica using one too many headsails on Leg 4...

 

Two teams confirmed they 'are aware of it' but would say nada besides that.

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The last 10 hours seem to have been excellent for Camper. They have gained a lot of miles south over Tele, and now look to be in very good position.

Or maybe, the last hours have been very bad for Tele, as they have been losing ground over everyone else! ;) Is it because of their masthead problem?

 

Anyway, the start of the leg has really been tough for all teams!

 

Abu Dhabi: broken J4 bulkhead

G4 : broken J4 clew

Puma : two serious injuries

Tele: broken masthead

Camper: ?

 

PS: Clean, keep us infomed, it could be serious!

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looking good alright, they are far enough west to skirt around that light patch and are the furtherest south to get into some decent running around the ice zone first.

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Camper will soon have to start picking fights with Sanya instead of the pack. They can't be THAT bad sailors. Some of it has to be the boat! This is just plain sad :(

Are you looking at the tracker or the volvo front page

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Looking at Camper's track in the last few hours, there's a period where she comes up a number of degrees, more so than the others, then pays off and goes deeper than the rest = maybe a lighter patch earlier - but anyway, agreed, looking very good at the moment. Still believe Camper has the legs on rest gong down, (look how she hauled in Telefonica end of last leg) maybe sweeter hull lines, less drag than the more powerful Juan Kouyoumdjian designs. Think Dalton has shot off somewhat prematurely, may have some regrets - many miles to go yet.

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Seems Puma is crawling back a bit. Go MarMo!

 

+1

 

and have picked up more ground.

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Telefonica blind in the night, Puma healing people. Both up to speed with Groupama now. Sanya profit on fleet compression. Camper south first normally pays off. Light patch joker.

 

Interesting! Am I missing something? :)

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Camper will soon have to start picking fights with Sanya instead of the pack. They can't be THAT bad sailors. Some of it has to be the boat! This is just plain sad :(

 

Camper are in a good position. They have got furthest south and will be very close to Telefonica. Do you follow the weather or just look at the DTF figures and jump to conclusions?

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Anyone get the inside info on the report sent from Measurers to Jury the other day? Something about Telefonica using one too many headsails on Leg 4...

 

Two teams confirmed they 'are aware of it' but would say nada besides that.

 

 

Que...? It sounds rather serious. What are your sources? Are we talking potential DQ of Telefonica for using too many sails?

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RE Telefonica's sails:

Is that normal to carry the extra sails and presumably decide which ones to use/exclude depending on the leg conditions?

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I have confirmed with multiple teams that Telefonica was reported to have used an extra sail on Leg 4. My sources are 'lick me" and EMF.

 

I am getting close to running a story, but trying to give VOR HQ and Tele a little time to explain. They're running out though!

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Sounds pretty serious! If its true then i can only assume they will be dsq. Even a 2hr time penalty will put them back to 6th

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Couldn't it just be a points deduction? There were a few instances of that last time though maybe that was around measurement issues.

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VOR BREAKING

 

 

 

 

A Two Sail Reach?

 

 

 

 

 

Reports from multiple sources have surfaced alleging that Telefonica used more than their allowed headsail allotment during Leg 3 of the Volvo Ocean Race. While no formal protests were filed, we've confirmed with sources inside the VOR that Measurers forwarded a report on the situation to the Jury on the Sunday of the Auckland re-start, though there’s nothing official posted anywhere we can find. Some say Tele used an extra staysail, some say an extra storm jib, though until we get an official comment, its all just speculation. Penalties will certainly apply if indeed the sail rules were broken, and if they were broken on one leg, they might've been broken on others.

 

 

 

 

 

VOR officials have not returned our emails by press time, but given the VOR staff’s usual transparency, we expect a comment soon.

 

 

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I have confirmed with multiple teams that Telefonica was reported to have used an extra sail on Leg 4. My sources are 'lick me" and EMF.

 

I am getting close to running a story, but trying to give VOR HQ and Tele a little time to explain. They're running out though!

 

Don't lie to us, we all know that your source is deep throat.

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It looks like VOR will need to deploy a committee boat to the south pacific to keep an eye on the traffic jam out there at the moment.

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I have confirmed with multiple teams that Telefonica was reported to have used an extra sail on Leg 4. My sources are 'lick me" and EMF.

 

I am getting close to running a story, but trying to give VOR HQ and Tele a little time to explain. They're running out though!

 

Don't lie to us, we all know that you deep throat.

 

Fixed

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I have confirmed with multiple teams that Telefonica was reported to have used an extra sail on Leg 4. My sources are 'lick me" and EMF.

 

I am getting close to running a story, but trying to give VOR HQ and Tele a little time to explain. They're running out though!

 

Threaten them with "negative PR" - that always works.

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Oh... A breaking news story complete with verified facts?

 

 

C'mon.... April 1 is weeks away..

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It's been very very tough out there and I think all of the boats are playing survival rather than much else. There's nothing wrong with dropping a few miles if you are keeping the boat safe, you can't win if you keep breaking things. Too early to criticise some of the boats, such as Camper, it's early days and this race needs boats finishing rather than breaking.

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Unless the RC or a boat protests it is all hearsay. Hard to prove now.

 

 

 

VOR BREAKING

 

 

 

 

A Two Sail Reach?

 

 

 

 

 

Reports from multiple sources have surfaced alleging that Telefonica used more than their allowed headsail allotment during Leg 3 of the Volvo Ocean Race. While no formal protests were filed, we've confirmed with sources inside the VOR that Measurers forwarded a report on the situation to the Jury on the Sunday of the Auckland re-start, though there's nothing official posted anywhere we can find. Some say Tele used an extra staysail, some say an extra storm jib, though until we get an official comment, its all just speculation. Penalties will certainly apply if indeed the sail rules were broken, and if they were broken on one leg, they might've been broken on others.

 

 

 

 

 

VOR officials have not returned our emails by press time, but given the VOR staff's usual transparency, we expect a comment soon.

 

 

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Unless the RC or a boat protests it is all hearsay. Hard to prove now.

VOR BREAKING

A Two Sail Reach?

Reports from multiple sources have surfaced alleging that Telefonica used more than their allowed headsail allotment during Leg 3 of the Volvo Ocean Race. While no formal protests were filed, we've confirmed with sources inside the VOR that Measurers forwarded a report on the situation to the Jury on the Sunday of the Auckland re-start, though there's nothing official posted anywhere we can find. Some say Tele used an extra staysail, some say an extra storm jib, though until we get an official comment, its all just speculation. Penalties will certainly apply if indeed the sail rules were broken, and if they were broken on one leg, they might've been broken on others.

VOR officials have not returned our emails by press time, but given the VOR staff's usual transparency, we expect a comment soon.

 

 

Leg 3 or 4? Either way, skippers declaration at the end of the leg would have showed it up much earlier than now.

These guys are pros - an 'oops, too many sails' story doesn't make any sense - they know their gear inside out.

 

Skipper - 'should we put up the J3 or J4?'

Trimmer - 'I just found a J3.5 down here. Want that?'

Skipper - 'Perfect. Send it up'.

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Unless the RC or a boat protests it is all hearsay. Hard to prove now.

 

I would have thought it's very easy to prove with an image.

Sightings from two separate boats would make it pretty conclusive too.

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If it was protested (and proven) what would/should the penalty be? In my head it would be a DSQ for that leg so they would loose 20 points and Clifford would gain 5. If that were to happen Clifford would be on 109 Groupama on 107 and Tele on 102. Would make for a very interesting second half of the race.

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Unless the RC or a boat protests it is all hearsay. Hard to prove now.

Which is why we are so interested in what was in the document the measurement group forwarded to the Jury.

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Unless the RC or a boat protests it is all hearsay. Hard to prove now.

VOR BREAKING

A Two Sail Reach?

Reports from multiple sources have surfaced alleging that Telefonica used more than their allowed headsail allotment during Leg 3 of the Volvo Ocean Race. While no formal protests were filed, we've confirmed with sources inside the VOR that Measurers forwarded a report on the situation to the Jury on the Sunday of the Auckland re-start, though there's nothing official posted anywhere we can find. Some say Tele used an extra staysail, some say an extra storm jib, though until we get an official comment, its all just speculation. Penalties will certainly apply if indeed the sail rules were broken, and if they were broken on one leg, they might've been broken on others.

VOR officials have not returned our emails by press time, but given the VOR staff's usual transparency, we expect a comment soon.

 

 

Leg 3 or 4? Either way, skippers declaration at the end of the leg would have showed it up much earlier than now.

These guys are pros - an 'oops, too many sails' story doesn't make any sense - they know their gear inside out.

 

Skipper - 'should we put up the J3 or J4?'

Trimmer - 'I just found a J3.5 down here. Want that?'

Skipper - 'Perfect. Send it up'.

 

Na, it's more esoteric. Has to do with what is a storm jib and what is a staysail, and how many of each you can fly, and there already has been a clarification about it issued the other day.

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Jesus Clean there is a much better story with your beloved GD'S fuck ups than this.

 

 

 

Unless the RC or a boat protests it is all hearsay. Hard to prove now.

VOR BREAKING

A Two Sail Reach?

Reports from multiple sources have surfaced alleging that Telefonica used more than their allowed headsail allotment during Leg 3 of the Volvo Ocean Race. While no formal protests were filed, we've confirmed with sources inside the VOR that Measurers forwarded a report on the situation to the Jury on the Sunday of the Auckland re-start, though there's nothing official posted anywhere we can find. Some say Tele used an extra staysail, some say an extra storm jib, though until we get an official comment, its all just speculation. Penalties will certainly apply if indeed the sail rules were broken, and if they were broken on one leg, they might've been broken on others.

VOR officials have not returned our emails by press time, but given the VOR staff's usual transparency, we expect a comment soon.

 

 

Leg 3 or 4? Either way, skippers declaration at the end of the leg would have showed it up much earlier than now.

These guys are pros - an 'oops, too many sails' story doesn't make any sense - they know their gear inside out.

 

Skipper - 'should we put up the J3 or J4?'

Trimmer - 'I just found a J3.5 down here. Want that?'

Skipper - 'Perfect. Send it up'.

 

Na, it's more esoteric. Has to do with what is a storm jib and what is a staysail, and how many of each you can fly, and there already has been a clarification about it issued the other day.

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Maybe Clean could get Nicole Scott to take some photos

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Jesus Clean there is a much better story with your beloved GD'S fuck ups than this.

 

 

 

I make no apologies for liking Grant Dalton for exactly the reason people are so pissed at him: Because he says shit no one else will. Maybe he shouldn't, but I'm certainly not the judge of what to say and what not to.

 

Regardless, a possible penalty or even DSQ (though I have NO information if that is even an option) is a far bigger story than Dalts running his mouth again. To me, anyway.

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Sanya is doing REALLY well in the light stuff! Camper however isn't really impressing anybody with their positioning. They say they are further south and that everything is dandy but it's just a couple of miles...

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Me neither and you know the past. Seems he is losing the plot on this one though. Most disappointing thing is his latest rant on the sport. Fucks sake the sport is fucked because of people like Dalts. If people have balls you would tell Russell et al to fuck off, the rest of the world are not playing. Jesus it is not Larry, it is a drunken, egotistical prick called Sir Russell having a cock off with that the most egotistical loser of all time...Cayard

 

 

 

Jesus Clean there is a much better story with your beloved GD'S fuck ups than this.

 

 

 

I make no apologies for liking Grant Dalton for exactly the reason people are so pissed at him: Because he says shit no one else will. Maybe he shouldn't, but I'm certainly not the judge of what to say and what not to.

 

Regardless, a possible penalty or even DSQ (though I have NO information if that is even an option) is a far bigger story than Dalts running his mouth again. To me, anyway.

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Jesus Clean there is a much better story with your beloved GD'S fuck ups than this.

 

 

 

Unless the RC or a boat protests it is all hearsay. Hard to prove now.

VOR BREAKING

A Two Sail Reach?

Reports from multiple sources have surfaced alleging that Telefonica used more than their allowed headsail allotment during Leg 3 of the Volvo Ocean Race. While no formal protests were filed, we've confirmed with sources inside the VOR that Measurers forwarded a report on the situation to the Jury on the Sunday of the Auckland re-start, though there's nothing official posted anywhere we can find. Some say Tele used an extra staysail, some say an extra storm jib, though until we get an official comment, its all just speculation. Penalties will certainly apply if indeed the sail rules were broken, and if they were broken on one leg, they might've been broken on others.

VOR officials have not returned our emails by press time, but given the VOR staff's usual transparency, we expect a comment soon.

 

 

Leg 3 or 4? Either way, skippers declaration at the end of the leg would have showed it up much earlier than now.

These guys are pros - an 'oops, too many sails' story doesn't make any sense - they know their gear inside out.

 

Skipper - 'should we put up the J3 or J4?'

Trimmer - 'I just found a J3.5 down here. Want that?'

Skipper - 'Perfect. Send it up'.

 

Na, it's more esoteric. Has to do with what is a storm jib and what is a staysail, and how many of each you can fly, and there already has been a clarification about it issued the other day.

 

More to do with how many Storm Jibs you can have on board during a leg. On VO70s because the measurement of Storm Jibs is only (Luff x LP)/2 < 35m2, anything outside the triangle is free area. So by adding a square top the Storm Jib becomes a pretty effective staysail. Trouble is they aren't great in 45knots upwind, the square tops flap violently, so you have to decide; either take a dedicated Storm Jib or a Storm Jib Staysail. Both are not included in the 17 race sails allowed for the race.

 

The last edition of the race allowed a maximum of 2 x SJs onboard, so all options covered. This edition, although the NOR is not written very clearly, you are only allowed to take one SJ. If you take additional then you must drop one of your other Headsails off the boat. Apparently Tele may have had both on board, a dedicated SJ and a SJ Staysail + their 2 x allowable head sails.

 

Read the VO70 rules on Storm sails and NOR and decide for yourself.

 

Some might say no great advantage, but if you look at how close the finish was between CAMPER and TELE in Auckland and the amount of time spent reaching where the SJ Staysail fits very nicely inside the J2, a SJ Staysail vs a SJ might very well be 90s quicker over 5000nm.

 

RC have sail lists and the boats are checked before and after a leg, so it's all quite easy to prove if in fact someone does breach sail limits.

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Sanya is doing REALLY well in the light stuff! Camper however isn't really impressing anybody with their positioning. They say they are further south and that everything is dandy but it's just a couple of miles...

 

Have you looked at the weather? Do you understand why they have been sailing south? Do you know what a high pressure ridge does and that the southern boat will be the windward boat on the other side? Reading the DTF figures means nothing - it's all about positioning relative to the next weather system.

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Me neither and you know the past. Seems he is losing the plot on this one though. Most disappointing thing is his latest rant on the sport. Fucks sake the sport is fucked because of people like Dalts. If people have balls you would tell Russell et al to fuck off, the rest of the world are not playing. Jesus it is not Larry, it is a drunken, egotistical prick called Sir Russell having a cock off with that the most egotistical loser of all time...Cayard

 

 

 

Jesus Clean there is a much better story with your beloved GD'S fuck ups than this.

 

 

 

I make no apologies for liking Grant Dalton for exactly the reason people are so pissed at him: Because he says shit no one else will. Maybe he shouldn't, but I'm certainly not the judge of what to say and what not to.

 

Regardless, a possible penalty or even DSQ (though I have NO information if that is even an option) is a far bigger story than Dalts running his mouth again. To me, anyway.

 

 

The Truth....

Whatever you are taking ..it is too strong....get a life and lighten up...

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Sanya is doing REALLY well in the light stuff! Camper however isn't really impressing anybody with their positioning. They say they are further south and that everything is dandy but it's just a couple of miles...

 

Have you looked at the weather? Do you understand why they have been sailing south? Do you know what a high pressure ridge does and that the southern boat will be the windward boat on the other side? Reading the DTF figures means nothing - it's all about positioning relative to the next weather system.

 

 

must be a troll, he cannot be this stupid just ignore

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Read the VO70 rules on Storm sails and NOR and decide for yourself.

 

 

From the NOR

 

5.2 WHILE RACING

 

5.2.1

 

(a) A Boat shall have on board 1 storm trysail, 1 storm jib and1 heavy weather jib

(HWJ).

 

(B) In an In-Port Race. Boats shall also have on board an In Port race spinnaker as

described in NOR APPENDIX E.

 

© The storm trysail shall only be used in case of safety or emergency and sheeted

without a mainsail.

 

 

5.2.2 In addition to the sails required to be on board in NOR 5.2.1(a) a Boat may carry on

board sails to a maximum of:

 

(a) 1 Mainsail

 

(B) 2 Headsails (which may include additional HWJ’s and storm jibs)

 

© 3 Spinnakers including 1 fractional spinnaker, which complies with Volvo Open 70 Rule

v.3. Section 11.3.9. None of these 3 additional spinnakers can be an In Port race

spinnaker as described in NOR APPENDIX E

 

(d) 1 Staysail (SS). Only permitted on a leg.

 

The VO70 rule states

 

11.4.2 A headsail shall be declared as a headsail at the time of measurement.

11.5.2 An SS shall be declared as an SS at the time of measurement.

11.6.2 A HWJ shall be declared as a HWJ at the time of measurement.

11.7.2 A storm jib shall be declared as a storm jib at the time of measurement.

 

 

Therefore - you have to declare what the sail is for. As a minium you have to carry 1xSJ and 1xHWJ

you can then add 2 more headsails (which may be Headsail, HWJ or SJ)

Reading it the grey area is the Staysail? Is this included in the allowance for Headsails or is it outside? I would read it as outside.

 

 

 

Therefore boat would have as a 1xSJ, 1xHWJ,1xSS and two others (i guess what in old money would be a light and heavy jib?)

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Some onboard stuff from the fleet, note at the end, ADOR are in the J4. :ph34r:

Also from VOR this morning news that Camper had an issue with a cracked fwd bulkhead, now fixed by Mike and Salty.

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And which ones did they have on leg 4?

 

Read the VO70 rules on Storm sails and NOR and decide for yourself.

 

 

From the NOR

 

5.2 WHILE RACING

 

5.2.1

 

(a) A Boat shall have on board 1 storm trysail, 1 storm jib and1 heavy weather jib

(HWJ).

 

(B) In an In-Port Race. Boats shall also have on board an In Port race spinnaker as

described in NOR APPENDIX E.

 

© The storm trysail shall only be used in case of safety or emergency and sheeted

without a mainsail.

 

 

5.2.2 In addition to the sails required to be on board in NOR 5.2.1(a) a Boat may carry on

board sails to a maximum of:

 

(a) 1 Mainsail

 

(B) 2 Headsails (which may include additional HWJ's and storm jibs)

 

© 3 Spinnakers including 1 fractional spinnaker, which complies with Volvo Open 70 Rule

v.3. Section 11.3.9. None of these 3 additional spinnakers can be an In Port race

spinnaker as described in NOR APPENDIX E

 

(d) 1 Staysail (SS). Only permitted on a leg.

 

The VO70 rule states

 

11.4.2 A headsail shall be declared as a headsail at the time of measurement.

11.5.2 An SS shall be declared as an SS at the time of measurement.

11.6.2 A HWJ shall be declared as a HWJ at the time of measurement.

11.7.2 A storm jib shall be declared as a storm jib at the time of measurement.

 

 

Therefore - you have to declare what the sail is for. As a minium you have to carry 1xSJ and 1xHWJ

you can then add 2 more headsails (which may be Headsail, HWJ or SJ)

Reading it the grey area is the Staysail? Is this included in the allowance for Headsails or is it outside? I would read it as outside.

 

 

 

Therefore boat would have as a 1xSJ, 1xHWJ,1xSS and two others (i guess what in old money would be a light and heavy jib?)

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VOR BREAKING

 

 

 

 

A Two Sail Reach?

 

 

 

 

 

Reports from multiple sources have surfaced alleging that Telefonica used more than their allowed headsail allotment during Leg 3 of the Volvo Ocean Race. While no formal protests were filed, we've confirmed with sources inside the VOR that Measurers forwarded a report on the situation to the Jury on the Sunday of the Auckland re-start, though there’s nothing official posted anywhere we can find. Some say Tele used an extra staysail, some say an extra storm jib, though until we get an official comment, its all just speculation. Penalties will certainly apply if indeed the sail rules were broken, and if they were broken on one leg, they might've been broken on others.

 

 

 

 

 

VOR officials have not returned our emails by press time, but given the VOR staff’s usual transparency, we expect a comment soon.

 

 

So those "multiple sources" are starting to get nervous with Tele performance? they should ask Mr. Bertarelli for help, he is very experienced in trying to win races from the desk office. Well, maybe they shuould make some training with a 49er between stopovers instead of licking their wounds or criticizing their designer. :P funny to see this kind of bullshit gossip news in Sailing ¿Anarchy? ;)

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Any one have the positions of the ice gates the fleet have to pass through . Come on Abu go left and cut the fleet off as the wind builds. Wheres those bloody ice gates ? Volvo put them up.

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Any one have the positions of the ice gates the fleet have to pass through . Come on Abu go left and cut the fleet off as the wind builds. Wheres those bloody ice gates ? Volvo put them up.

 

There are not gates like the Vendee uses but rather an exclusion zone. The exclusion zone is displayed in the tracker and the sailing instructions for leg 5 are online on the VOR homepage. Do not blame the Volvo organisers for your incompetence.

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so do tele regard camper as more of a threat than the rest of the fleet, although camper appeard to be in a great position with leverage its a big call to leave the fleet and join one boat on a flyer thats coming third rather than covering groupama, aside from reaching i think camper has the ability and speed to win this race

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Sanya is doing REALLY well in the light stuff! Camper however isn't really impressing anybody with their positioning. They say they are further south and that everything is dandy but it's just a couple of miles...

 

 

 

Sanya's doing great. But you can't say that Camper's position is impressive or unimpressive -- way too close of a horse race at this stage. Hey, if nothing else, at least we can see that Camper is keeping up just fine on reaches. Surely they tweaked a few things, probably including sails, in that shed in Auckland.

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Grant Dalton has said the boat is a dog so they now have an open book to go where ever they want....

 

 

 

so do tele regard camper as more of a threat than the rest of the fleet, although camper appeard to be in a great position with leverage its a big call to leave the fleet and join one boat on a flyer thats coming third rather than covering groupama, aside from reaching i think camper has the ability and speed to win this race

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Grant Dalton has said the boat is a dog so they now have an open book to go where ever they want....

 

 

 

so do tele regard camper as more of a threat than the rest of the fleet, although camper appeard to be in a great position with leverage its a big call to leave the fleet and join one boat on a flyer thats coming third rather than covering groupama, aside from reaching i think camper has the ability and speed to win this race

 

Thanks for your insight. You don't like Dalton, we grt it. Fuck off.

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The high looks to be moving away a little quicker than the GFS forecast says, boats in the south in 15 knots, in the north slightly less.

 

I looked at the routing and at the moment they are in a race to the top of the ice gate - it may be a bit of a procession after that.

 

It's going to get heinous again. I know the ice gate is there for safety, but I reckon the boats will take a hiding bean reaching in 30+ knots, where they would have set themselves up for a quicker and smoother ride going south.

 

Here is the expedition routing for Camper.

 

post-8605-049175300 1332331761_thumb.jpg

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I do actually like the old prick and unlike you have actually sailed around the world a few times. But up to you as the weather router..........

 

 

 

Grant Dalton has said the boat is a dog so they now have an open book to go where ever they want....

 

 

 

so do tele regard camper as more of a threat than the rest of the fleet, although camper appeard to be in a great position with leverage its a big call to leave the fleet and join one boat on a flyer thats coming third rather than covering groupama, aside from reaching i think camper has the ability and speed to win this race

 

Thanks for your insight. You don't like Dalton, we grt it. Fuck off.

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So those "multiple sources" are starting to get nervous with Tele performance? they should ask Mr. Bertarelli for help, he is very experienced in trying to win races from the desk office. Well, maybe they shuould make some training with a 49er between stopovers instead of licking their wounds or criticizing their designer. :P funny to see this kind of bullshit gossip news in Sailing ¿Anarchy? ;)

 

There's a difference between dock talk and something submitted to the jury.

 

It would be a shame if Telefonica broke the rules. They are good guys and no one would suggest they have got to the lead by cheating.

 

If they have to take a penalty they will be good sports.

 

Other teams would be surprised, maybe disappointed if a competitor has broken the rules. None of them are going 'Bertarelli' on us.

 

You're being hysterical.

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I do actually like the old prick and unlike you have actually sailed around the world a few times. But up to you as the weather router..........

 

Ok, good comeback. Dont fuck off.

 

I have not sailed around the world. Did you sail around Cape Horn?

 

Weather routing shows a profound impact on the leg by raising the ice gate.

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I do actually like the old prick and unlike you have actually sailed around the world a few times. But up to you as the weather router..........

 

 

 

Grant Dalton has said the boat is a dog so they now have an open book to go where ever they want....

 

 

 

so do tele regard camper as more of a threat than the rest of the fleet, although camper appeard to be in a great position with leverage its a big call to leave the fleet and join one boat on a flyer thats coming third rather than covering groupama, aside from reaching i think camper has the ability and speed to win this race

 

Thanks for your insight. You don't like Dalton, we grt it. Fuck off.

 

What was your name in the last version of the VOR game

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yes and yes and if Cape Horn is involved yes yet again

 

I do actually like the old prick and unlike you have actually sailed around the world a few times. But up to you as the weather router..........

 

Ok, good comeback. Dont fuck off.

 

I have not sailed around the world. Did you sail around Cape Horn?

 

Weather routing shows a profound impact on the leg by raising the ice gate.

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How much interest in sailing after P2011?. Hey it only cost $21 MILLION

 

I do actually like the old prick and unlike you have actually sailed around the world a few times. But up to you as the weather router..........

 

 

 

Grant Dalton has said the boat is a dog so they now have an open book to go where ever they want....

 

 

 

so do tele regard camper as more of a threat than the rest of the fleet, although camper appeard to be in a great position with leverage its a big call to leave the fleet and join one boat on a flyer thats coming third rather than covering groupama, aside from reaching i think camper has the ability and speed to win this race

 

Thanks for your insight. You don't like Dalton, we grt it. Fuck off.

 

Me too, once on the Barcelona round the world race game, and in the last version of the VOR game

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post-2250-015104500 1332332876_thumb.png

 

Interesting that Telefonica took a gybe down to Camper's line. Both are in a little more pressure now.

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Never played. Always found the real thing so much better

 

I do actually like the old prick and unlike you have actually sailed around the world a few times. But up to you as the weather router..........

 

 

 

Grant Dalton has said the boat is a dog so they now have an open book to go where ever they want....

 

 

 

so do tele regard camper as more of a threat than the rest of the fleet, although camper appeard to be in a great position with leverage its a big call to leave the fleet and join one boat on a flyer thats coming third rather than covering groupama, aside from reaching i think camper has the ability and speed to win this race

 

Thanks for your insight. You don't like Dalton, we grt it. Fuck off.

 

What was your name in the last version of the VOR game

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Jesus Clean there is a much better story with your beloved GD'S fuck ups than this.

 

 

Regardless, a possible penalty or even DSQ (though I have NO information if that is even an option) is a far bigger story than Dalts running his mouth again. To me, anyway.

 

Agreed, far bigger. But Dalton running his mouth is also a story.

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Anyone agrees that if Groupama wins this leg from Telephonica they make a good chance for the overall win?

 

Agreed and hope so!

 

My bet for first to Western Ice Limit:

1. Tele

2. Groupama

3. Puma

4. Camper (- and there will be NO excuse of a slower boat)

 

Yep, I think they are the best bet to beat Tlf for the overall. Cool, low-key crew.

 

And (Badluck for Telphonica with mastfailure) Groupama now leading...

Fleet is close to each other now: distance first and last 11 Nm.

Except for Abu Dhabi then with their busted J4 bulkhead.

 

I saw in the wheather report that there are stronger winds ahead.

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From Frostad, explaining why nothing has been posted about this yet. That's all from me for a bit. Off to the Caribbean!

 

It is the jury that decides when a report or a finding or a hearing is posted in the public domain and that depends on when they decide to have a hearing, if they decide to have a hearing. As said the issue related to a storm jib and Leg 4 only.

 

Jack is the best to fill you in on any other details.

 

The reason why we have not proactively posted anything yet, is that we did not know at the time we left Auckland if there was a case or not.

 

Cheers

 

Knut

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Update: Confirmed that the IJ have lodged a protest against Tele. More when I land hopefully

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Weather routing shows a profound impact on the leg by raising the ice gate.

Maybe you could do the same analysis ignoring the ice gates? Would be interesting to get a real idea about the impact.

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Update: Confirmed that the IJ have lodged a protest against Tele. More when I land hopefully

 

Giggity

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Anyone agrees that if Groupama wins this leg from Telephonica they make a good chance for the overall win?

 

Agreed and hope so!

 

My bet for first to Western Ice Limit:

1. Tele

2. Groupama

3. Puma

4. Camper (- and there will be NO excuse of a slower boat)

 

Yep, I think they are the best bet to beat Tlf for the overall. Cool, low-key crew.

 

And (Badluck for Telphonica with mastfailure) Groupama now leading...

Fleet is close to each other now: distance first and last 11 Nm.

Except for Abu Dhabi then with their busted J4 bulkhead.

 

I saw in the wheather report that there are stronger winds ahead.

 

Telefonica did not have any mast failure, just the electronics "wand" I understand;

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Ouch for tele, a disqualification could really cost them overall...

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If the said protest was actually in play, I would have thought that it would have hit VOR news by now. So far, all we have is a speculation on this site, hardly an official, or perhaps even reliable, source of information. I certainly wouldn't be making a lot of predictions based on the current level of information. But then again, logic doesn't always sell newspapers...

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From the VOR Site:

 

The International Jury will schedule a hearing during the next stopover in Itajaí after receiving a report from the head of the Measurement Group over the sails carried by Team Telefónica during Leg 4 from Sanya to Auckland.

 

No date has yet been set for the hearing into the protest, which concerns an alleged breach of the notice of race 5.2.2.

 

Full article here: Clicky

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From the VOR Site:

 

The International Jury will schedule a hearing during the next stopover in Itajaí after receiving a report from the head of the Measurement Group over the sails carried by Team Telefónica during Leg 4 from Sanya to Auckland.

 

No date has yet been set for the hearing into the protest, which concerns an alleged breach of the notice of race 5.2.2.

 

Full article here: Clicky

 

So it's now official! Well done Clean for the scoop!

 

What's the possible penalty for Telefonica if they are found guilty?

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Puma and Group just took a hitch south. Looks more costly for Puma than Groupama. Is there better breeze down there?

 

Puma seemed to go too far while Groupama picked the perfect time to gybe back. Still, a close boat race by any definition.

 

post-2250-012726000 1332354596_thumb.png

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From the VOR Site:

 

The International Jury will schedule a hearing during the next stopover in Itajaí after receiving a report from the head of the Measurement Group over the sails carried by Team Telefónica during Leg 4 from Sanya to Auckland.

 

No date has yet been set for the hearing into the protest, which concerns an alleged breach of the notice of race 5.2.2.

 

Full article here: Clicky

 

So it's now official! Well done Clean for the scoop!

 

What's the possible penalty for Telefonica if they are found guilty?

 

One thing is for sure they will not get a DSQ - even if found guilty of the most henious crime - this is a sponsor led parade of sail. Remember a few races ago, Illbruck were found to have contravened the class rules, and the boat was essentially out of class - their punishment....a $1000 fine or similar. I remember thinking what a joke that was - do not be surprised if something similar happens here!

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Anyone agrees that if Groupama wins this leg from Telephonica they make a good chance for the overall win?

 

Agreed and hope so!

 

My bet for first to Western Ice Limit:

1. Tele

2. Groupama

3. Puma

4. Camper (- and there will be NO excuse of a slower boat)

 

Yep, I think they are the best bet to beat Tlf for the overall. Cool, low-key crew.

 

And (Badluck for Telphonica with mastfailure) Groupama now leading...

Fleet is close to each other now: distance first and last 11 Nm.

Except for Abu Dhabi then with their busted J4 bulkhead.

 

I saw in the wheather report that there are stronger winds ahead.

 

Telefonica did not have any mast failure, just the electronics "wand" I understand;

sail

""We broke the masthead (headsail) a bit," reported helmsman Pablo Arrarte. "A piece of the tack broke. It flew away and broke the tensor (tensioning connector) down to the bowsprit. "

source: http://www.volvoocea...l-breakage.html

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