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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  

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Nessun Dorma

CATARI/PACIFIC SEACRAFT BUILD

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Well, we started, if a detailed mockup made of plywood and balsa counts ...

 

Earlier this week I was at Pacific Seacraft to finalize some details on CATARI and see the aft cockpit mock up they'd built based on Bob's latest drawings. We had about 5 of us sitting and walking through the cockpit for almost 6 hours. We actually ate lunch in it which was pretty cool. We had a little guy about my wife's height (5'5"), me, Thumper at 6'2" (the yard manager and yes that's his name), Beefy Victor, Raul the carpenter and Steve Brodie, the owner. We looked over the house from the wheel, sat 5 for a meal at a mock aft cockpit table, and walked in and out of the aft cabin with steps and cockpit soles of various depths. We were able to sit on watch under the hood and look at and test the aft decks and side decks and see how the winch placement felt. The coffee cans are the winches, although the 72s will obvious be larger in real life.

 

The PSC guys had done, I think, a great job of building a wooden model that was not just accurate but had some gracious details, like the shot below with the curved coaming. The day resulted in some suggested changes that Bob is mulling over. Nothing big, just small things that as you sit in the mock up you see better and want to change. One significant change is adding another 12" of aft deck space.

 

Bob has been telling me for almost a year to stop editing drawings and wait to see it in mock up. So I will say "he told me so" for him so he doesn't have to.

 

Based on how my photos turned out I brought the wrong lens and need some practice at this. But we'll try to get better with time. It was hard to get photos with enough angle to show details -- unless I went up on the overhead catwalks and shot from above. Next time I will be better equipped. PSC has also agreed to put in a webcam system and there will be still shots from that I can share (with PSC prior approval). Steve Brodie is shown seated "on watch" in the aft house overhang and watch-cubby (what his crew calls it), with his brand new 'summer buzz' haircut that he gets with his boys and that makes him look like a 20 year old. He really is a grown man in his 40s, honest.

 

The wheel in most of these is smaller than the 36" wheel spec'd, although later in the afternoon they replaced it with the larger one. I asked to try a 42" wheel and they accommodated me, but the 36 bob drew was just perfect. Go figure.

 

Note that the pilot house does not overhang on the sides on the real boat/ drawings, they just had not trimmed those side boards off yet -- where the clamps are. We extended the overhang a few inches aft and the clamps are holding the latest extension on.

 

All in all a great day for me and I think PSC did a wonderful job. The crew there is very proud and looks forward to the work.

 

I mentioned it in my Spike thread but I want everyone to know again that PSC and the guys there are making a generous gift this year in support of the Spike Memorial Fund. They're great guy so thank them if you can.

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Very exciting. Looks like a proper, businesslike and comfortable seagoing cockpit. It appears this "Bob" knows what he is doing.

 

How did you find an outboard steering position? It looks like the corners of the "aft, aft cockpit" close it off somewhat.

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The outboard steering is perfect actually -- you can't really see the angles with the shots but the seats are angled and set back and you can reach the wheel and brace easily for at least 6 positions. Remember we're looking at a 28" wheel in that photo as well. The corners look larger than they are.

 

Very exciting. Looks like a proper, businesslike and comfortable seagoing cockpit. It appears this "Bob" knows what he is doing.

 

How did you find an outboard steering position? It looks like the corners of the "aft, aft cockpit" close it off somewhat.

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There will be wire runs and things in there but no structure. They look larger on the photos when they are. Big Victor has big legs and he easily passes by. They are mostly to dilineate the business end from the rest. As in "stay out of here please." Mostly its a look I like as it reminds me of my dad's boat.

 

Is there a structural reason why the helms seeting and cockpit seating have that little "wall" pinched between them?

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WOW! The helm area looks like a lounge as well as a helm station. Going to be a sexy boat!

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The outboard steering is perfect actually -- you can't really see the angles with the shots but the seats are angled and set back and you can reach the wheel and brace easily for at least 6 positions. Remember we're looking at a 28" wheel in that photo as well. The corners look larger than they are.

 

Very exciting. Looks like a proper, businesslike and comfortable seagoing cockpit. It appears this "Bob" knows what he is doing.

 

How did you find an outboard steering position? It looks like the corners of the "aft, aft cockpit" close it off somewhat.

 

 

Thanks. It's one hell of a sexy look.

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Mostly its a look I like as it reminds me of my dad's boat.

Cool. You're the dad now, and your dad a proud one, I'm sure. Enjoy the build. A shitload of fun.

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A lot of hours have gone into designing and redesigning that cockpit. It makes me happy to see the shapes actually working and the design objectives met. So far.

I was no aware that Folgers made winches.

 

What strikes me when I look at those pics is what a nice job they have done on the mock up.

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I agree Bob -- the three guys who did the work on the mock up were very proud of what they'd done, and were making on the spot changes and bending wood into curves and stuff. They didn't want to just build a box that showed rough shapes, they wanted to build a pretty boat cockpit. I'll pass your compliments on to the PSC guys Bob, that will mean a lot coming from you.

 

A lot of hours have gone into designing and redesigning that cockpit. It makes me happy to see the shapes actually working and the design objectives met. So far.

I was no aware that Folgers made winches.

 

What strikes me when I look at those pics is what a nice job they have done on the mock up.

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I was no aware that Folgers made winches.

Oh yes, they have been making "Coffee Grinders" for quite a while, and using advanced lightweight plastics, much like that big black Harken in your office... tongue.gif

 

How well they work is another issue.

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It's nice to know they're not wasting money on the shop coffee budget.

 

I look at that mock-up and think you just need to fillet the joints, lay on some cloth, and glass it up.

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It's nice to know they're not wasting money on the shop coffee budget.

 

I look at that mock-up and think you just need to fillet the joints, lay on some cloth, and glass it up.

 

 

complete with super, extra large, 2 story condo-saloon just forward of the PH ;) (mockup for engine room I suppose)

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Very nice mockup. That is going to be one sweet boat.

 

As accurate and detailed as drawings and 3D models may be it nearly always helps to build a full size mockup. You discover things to tweak to make the boat perfect.

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Funny you say that -- yeah, it is the engine room mock up box, and it basically is up on a platform. The center cockpit mockup will be built next and then placed on top of the ER mockup. Basically they are building the boat in pieces.

 

It's nice to know they're not wasting money on the shop coffee budget.

 

I look at that mock-up and think you just need to fillet the joints, lay on some cloth, and glass it up.

 

 

complete with super, extra large, 2 story condo-saloon just forward of the PH ;) (mockup for engine room I suppose)

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Very nice mockup. That is going to be one sweet boat.

 

As accurate and detailed as drawings and 3D models may be it nearly always helps to build a full size mockup. You discover things to tweak to make the boat perfect.

 

yeah, I suppose if you wanted to fork out the dough for a virtual reality holodeck sort of thing you could get close. But nothing beats the real thing.

 

At least, that's what she said.

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when you say you are adding 12" to the aft deck, does that mean you are adding 12" to the LOA?

 

the one concern i always had when looking at the diagrams was whether the cockpit was big enough - i think the mock up shows that it will work fine, although if it were my boat, i'd probably go slightly bigger.

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ND,

 

This looks GREAT!!! The overhang cuddy is particularly SWEET! You'll spend a lot of time in there watching the wake slowly disappear behind you.

 

A few of very minor thoughts, which I'm certain you've already thought of. First, if there can be a place to put a book or iPad - which one would be reading while on watch and have to stash when duty calls - someplace inside the cuddy I think you'd find it handy. Similarly, if there's a place to quickly put a beer/wine/coffee/tea container that you're holding and drinking when once again duty calls, I think you'd find these very useful. The Bill Lee molded beer holders, built right into the deck of Merlin, were always a wonderful feature.

 

I'm sure you've tested this, but get Thumper to lay down on the cockpit seat and insure one can sleep there. My absolute favorite place to sleep during a passage is on the lee-side cockpit seat. You feel, hear and sense everything even when you're not on watch and the crew knows you're right there if they need you. Your cockpit is so luxo-amazing that there'd be plenty of room for a sleeping skipper if the seat is long enough. (I even put a seat-belt on Saga so I wouldn't get rolled off the seat in a round-down.)

 

It wouldn't be in the mock-up, I'm guessing, but hand-holds that are integrated into the aft edge of the cock-pit cuddy roof are terrific, provided they don't catch lines. I was always amazed at how happy my crew was to stand behind the cuddy roof and only have their head out in the weather.

 

Finally, while we all love to sail from the rail, and far be it from me to discourage it, most cruising is on autopilot and I found that sitting on he windward rail amidships with the rest of the crew while steering with the autopilot remote control satisfied my desire to "sail" from the rail without needing to build a cockpit and wheel that let me get that far outboard. The wheel really does take a lot of space, which you undoubtedly found when you tried the "big" wheel in your mock up and it's so rarely used that I've reversed my earlier opinion that one should always be able to do it. On a daysailer - you must do it, on a beautiful cruising boat like yours - not so much.

 

Just my 2cents, and stuff I'm pretty sure you would have already thought of. (Or, that Bob guy would have thought of it.)

 

Really, a TERRIFIC start to what is going to be a STUNNING boat!

 

Congratulations!

 

Beau

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The cockpit is large now. Those benches are 7'6" long ahead of the curvy part. The boat is 9'6" wide at the wheel. Any larger and (for me) it would not be as well suited for heavy weather offshore. We like it the way it is and if anything PSC is concerned it might be too big. I say its perfect - for me. Very personal. Plus there is a center cockpit for day lounging and dining, and when needed reefing the sails and operating halyards.

 

Yes, we are adding 12" LOA -- the starn just tapers more and ends 12" aft to create more deck but very little additional displacement. So now we are officially 60' LOA, 50 LWL and 15" max beam.

 

when you say you are adding 12" to the aft deck, does that mean you are adding 12" to the LOA?

 

the one concern i always had when looking at the diagrams was whether the cockpit was big enough - i think the mock up shows that it will work fine, although if it were my boat, i'd probably go slightly bigger.

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The cockpit is large now. Those benches are 7'6" long ahead of the curvy part. The boat is 9'6" wide at the wheel. Any larger and (for me) it would not be as well suited for heavy weather offshore. We like it the way it is and if anything PSC is concerned it might be too big. I say its perfect - for me. Very personal. Plus there is a center cockpit for day lounging and dining, and when needed reefing the sails and operating halyards.

 

Yes, we are adding 12" LOA -- the starn just tapers more and ends 12" aft to create more deck but very little additional displacement. So now we are officially 60' LOA, 50 LWL and 15" max beam.

 

when you say you are adding 12" to the aft deck, does that mean you are adding 12" to the LOA?

 

the one concern i always had when looking at the diagrams was whether the cockpit was big enough - i think the mock up shows that it will work fine, although if it were my boat, i'd probably go slightly bigger.

 

i meant longer, not wider..., but if the benches are 7'6" long, i probably agree that it is long enough.

 

looks great!

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ND. Does the coach roof and sides in the mockup represent the molded line (outside face) of the surfaces or the inside face with part thickness and liner, if any, taken into account? If not the latter you my find the headroom in the cockpit a bit lower than represented in the mockup. I assume the sole, deck and seats are to the molded line..

 

 

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BV-- Great minds (meaning yours, Bobs and PSCs and not mine) think alike - see below in CAPS.

 

ND,

 

This looks GREAT!!! The overhang cuddy is particularly SWEET! You'll spend a lot of time in there watching the wake slowly disappear behind you.

 

A few of very minor thoughts, which I'm certain you've already thought of. First, if there can be a place to put a book or iPad - which one would be reading while on watch and have to stash when duty calls - someplace inside the cuddy I think you'd find it handy. YES THERE WILL BE A POCKET DOOR IN THE RECESS THAT IS WATERPROOF AND SIZED FOR A LAPTOP OR AN IPAD. ONE ON EACH SIDE OF THE CUBBY, WITH A POWER ADAPTER INSIDE. Similarly, if there's a place to quickly put a beer/wine/coffee/tea container that you're holding and drinking when once again duty calls, I think you'd find these very useful. The Bill Lee molded beer holders, built right into the deck of Merlin, were always a wonderful feature. THUMPER EWAS ON THAT LIKE A DOG WITH A BONE. BUILT IN HOLDERS WITHIN REACH, SUITABLE FOR STEMWARE OR A CAN OR GLASS.

 

I'm sure you've tested this, but get Thumper to lay down on the cockpit seat and insure one can sleep there. My absolute favorite place to sleep during a passage is on the lee-side cockpit seat. You feel, hear and sense everything even when you're not on watch and the crew knows you're right there if they need you. Your cockpit is so luxo-amazing that there'd be plenty of room for a sleeping skipper if the seat is long enough. THOSE SEATS ARE 7/6" LONG AND WE TOOK TURNS LYING ON THEM. ONE THING NOT MOTED IS THAT THE COCKPIT AFT TABLE WILL RCESS (A TEAK GRATE) INTO THE SOLE AT THAT PART AND RAISE UP AND DOWN TO CREATE A TABLE OR SOLE. (I even put a seat-belt on Saga so I wouldn't get rolled off the seat in a round-down.)WE HAVE TWO SEATBELTS SPEC'D PER SIDE IN BOTH THE AFT AND CENTER COCKPIT - FOR ROLLINGA DULTS AND CARSEATS FOR LITTLE ONES.

 

It wouldn't be in the mock-up, I'm guessing, but hand-holds that are integrated into the aft edge of the cock-pit cuddy roof are terrific, provided they don't catch lines. THE FIRST THING BIG VICTOR SAID WHEN WE WERE STANDING AT THEA FT EDGE WAS 'WE NEED AM INTERGATED HAND HOLD OR STAINLESS BAR HERE, THEN TOOK ME TO SEE ONE ON A PSC 40 THATW AS NEARBY FOR REFIT WORK. I was always amazed at how happy my crew was to stand behind the cuddy roof and only have their head out in the weather.

 

Finally, while we all love to sail from the rail, and far be it from me to discourage it, most cruising is on autopilot and I found that sitting on he windward rail amidships with the rest of the crew while steering with the autopilot remote control satisfied my desire to "sail" from the rail without needing to build a cockpit and wheel that let me get that far outboard. The wheel really does take a lot of space, which you undoubtedly found when you tried the "big" wheel in your mock up and it's so rarely used that I've reversed my earlier opinion that one should always be able to do it. On a daysailer - you must do it, on a beautiful cruising boat like yours - not so much. I AM VERY HAPPY WITH 36", WHICH FOR A BOAT THIS SIZE IS SMALL. ANY SMALLER LOOKS ODD. I MIGHT GO TO 42" BUT I FEAR IT WILL CROWD AND DWARF MY WIFE. SO YES YES, WE AGREE.

 

Just my 2cents, and stuff I'm pretty sure you would have already thought of. (Or, that Bob guy would have thought of it.)

 

Really, a TERRIFIC start to what is going to be a STUNNING boat! THANK YOU -- COMING FROM THE OWNER OF SAGAPO THAT IS QUITE THE COMPLIMENT !!!

 

Congratulations!

 

Beau

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They built to the interior lines so we could test headroom. When looking over the PH we added (visually) a 4" crown to represent line of sight over it due to depth. Does that answer the question?

 

ND. Does the coach roof and sides in the mockup represent the molded line (outside face) of the surfaces or the inside face with part thickness and liner, if any, taken into account? If not the latter you my find the headroom in the cockpit a bit lower than represented in the mockup. I assume the sole, deck and seats are to the molded line..

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They built to the interior lines so we could test headroom. When looking over the PH we added (visually) a 4" crown to represent line of sight over it due to depth. Does that answer the question?

 

ND. Does the coach roof and sides in the mockup represent the molded line (outside face) of the surfaces or the inside face with part thickness and liner, if any, taken into account? If not the latter you my find the headroom in the cockpit a bit lower than represented in the mockup. I assume the sole, deck and seats are to the molded line..

 

Yep.

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ND, you guys are way ahead of me. I'm going to have to find SOMETHING obscure that you haven't thought of. Geeesh!! B-))

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The credit is 80% Bob and 15% PSC. I get the remaining 5%.

 

ND, you guys are way ahead of me. I'm going to have to find SOMETHING obscure that you haven't thought of. Geeesh!! B-))

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The credit is 80% Bob and 15% PSC. I get the remaining 5%.

 

ND, you guys are way ahead of me. I'm going to have to find SOMETHING obscure that you haven't thought of. Geeesh!! B-))

WLYDO gets maybe a .01%.

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+1

 

The credit is 80% Bob and 15% PSC. I get the remaining 5%.

 

ND, you guys are way ahead of me. I'm going to have to find SOMETHING obscure that you haven't thought of. Geeesh!! B-))

WLYDO gets maybe a .01%.

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The credit is 80% Bob and 15% PSC. I get the remaining 5%.

 

ND, you guys are way ahead of me. I'm going to have to find SOMETHING obscure that you haven't thought of. Geeesh!! B-))

WLYDO gets maybe a .01%.

 

 

Hang on there: Maestro IS THE founding member of The WLYDO, and as such THE WLYDO gets 80.01% of the credit! :P

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This looks GREAT!!! The overhang cuddy is particularly SWEET! You'll spend a lot of time in there watching the wake slowly disappear behind you.

 

A few of very minor thoughts, which I'm certain you've already thought of. First, if there can be a place to put a book or iPad - which one would be reading while on watch and have to stash when duty calls - someplace inside the cuddy I think you'd find it handy. Similarly, if there's a place to quickly put a beer/wine/coffee/tea container that you're holding and drinking when once again duty calls, I think you'd find these very useful. The Bill Lee molded beer holders, built right into the deck of Merlin, were always a wonderful feature.

 

It wouldn't be in the mock-up, I'm guessing, but hand-holds that are integrated into the aft edge of the cock-pit cuddy roof are terrific, provided they don't catch lines. I was always amazed at how happy my crew was to stand behind the cuddy roof and only have their head out in the weather.

 

I think Beau hit some great points. We found that little ledge behind the benches to be useful for all kinds of little stuff. Everything from iPods to eye glasses and binoculars. We put a small fiddle on that ledge so that stuff stays up there. And as Beau suggests, we found the hand holds on the trailing edge of the dodger to be very useful. Great when you get up to scan the horizon with a pair of binoculars in one hand and really welcome when leaving the cockpit for the side deck.

 

Also, we found the two most popular seating positions while on watch are either sitting on the leward side facing aft, or sitting athwartship with our legs braced on the opposite bench. You might want to check those two positions for comfort.

 

Do you plan to put some nav instruments, like an MFD with radar, AIS, TWS, TWA, etc in the cuddy?

 

One other thing to think about with the cockpit layout is sheet tails, where will they go?

 

You're getting in the fun part as the 2D drawings become a 3D mockup. Enjoy!

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"We found that little ledge behind the benches to be useful for all kinds of little stuff. Everything from iPods to eye glasses and binoculars. We put a small fiddle on that ledge so that stuff stays up there. And as Beau suggests, we found the hand holds on the trailing edge of the dodger to be very useful. Great when you get up to scan the horizon with a pair of binoculars in one hand and really welcome when leaving the cockpit for the side deck." There will be fiddles and an enclosed door.

 

"Also, we found the two most popular seating positions while on watch are either sitting on the leward side facing aft, or sitting athwartship with our legs braced on the opposite bench. You might want to check those two positions for comfort." Both work well and have been designed for a 5'5" woman to 6'2" man, without the need for a center brace, etc.That's one reason I said to someone earlier we did not want to make anything wider than it was aft.

 

"Do you plan to put some nav instruments, like an MFD with radar, AIS, TWS, TWA, etc in the cuddy?" Yes, but we are waiting tos ee where technology lands when we get there in 20 months. Now it would be an MFD for radar/AIS charting under the cuddy with the sailing instruments at the mizzen. In 20 months we may just velcro Ipad's all over the place and throw them overboard when the batteries die, as thats eems to be 1/2 the price of custom marine isntallations. But there will be something at the cuddy for sure, as I tolerate nothing at the helm other than a compas and the AP control.

 

"One other thing to think about with the cockpit layout is sheet tails, where will they go?" We will have two deep well vertical line bins at the coaming between the winches; they drop down to a segregated sshaft with a fabric mesh bag that drains. When not in use they will have teak plugs that cover the bins and match the coaming.

This looks GREAT!!! The overhang cuddy is particularly SWEET! You'll spend a lot of time in there watching the wake slowly disappear behind you.

 

A few of very minor thoughts, which I'm certain you've already thought of. First, if there can be a place to put a book or iPad - which one would be reading while on watch and have to stash when duty calls - someplace inside the cuddy I think you'd find it handy. Similarly, if there's a place to quickly put a beer/wine/coffee/tea container that you're holding and drinking when once again duty calls, I think you'd find these very useful. The Bill Lee molded beer holders, built right into the deck of Merlin, were always a wonderful feature.

 

It wouldn't be in the mock-up, I'm guessing, but hand-holds that are integrated into the aft edge of the cock-pit cuddy roof are terrific, provided they don't catch lines. I was always amazed at how happy my crew was to stand behind the cuddy roof and only have their head out in the weather.

 

I think Beau hit some great points. We found that little ledge behind the benches to be useful for all kinds of little stuff. Everything from iPods to eye glasses and binoculars. We put a small fiddle on that ledge so that stuff stays up there. And as Beau suggests, we found the hand holds on the trailing edge of the dodger to be very useful. Great when you get up to scan the horizon with a pair of binoculars in one hand and really welcome when leaving the cockpit for the side deck.

 

Also, we found the two most popular seating positions while on watch are either sitting on the leward side facing aft, or sitting athwartship with our legs braced on the opposite bench. You might want to check those two positions for comfort.

 

Do you plan to put some nav instruments, like an MFD with radar, AIS, TWS, TWA, etc in the cuddy?

 

One other thing to think about with the cockpit layout is sheet tails, where will they go?

 

You're getting in the fun part as the 2D drawings become a 3D mockup. Enjoy!

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All I did was interprit ND's ideas. It was the most drawn out preliminary design process I have ever done. We explored just about anything ND could think of. It was challenging and very rewarding.

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WLYDO gets maybe a .01%.

Hang on there: Maestro IS THE founding member of The WLYDO, and as such THE WLYDO gets 80.01% of the credit! :P

I like you, Greevs.

 

I tolerate nothing at the helm other than a compas and the AP control.

+1

 

All I did was interpret ND's ideas. It was the most drawn out preliminary design process I have ever done. We explored just about anything ND could think of. It was challenging and very rewarding.

Thank you both for sharing.

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HEY! Does this mean that we, here on the forum, are the 0.01%??? How cool is that???

 

Does it mean that the 1% will be really jealous and someone will come and OCCUPY Bob's front lawn or something fun!!??!!

 

Does it mean that we're 100 times "better" than those 1% guys??

 

B-))

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ND,

 

You know I'm a real curmudgeon about instruments - I actually hate them. (Grump mode going on) That said, be really careful with how much light gets generated (even when the interments are "off") in your cockpit. I can't tell you how many times I've ended up duct taping bags over instruments on deliveries to keep them from blinding me. It has made me the grumpy guy I am on this topic.

 

Boats managed to explore almost ever inch of the known world without GPS, RADAR, AIS, and Chart Plotters. Yes, they did have to actually look out over the bow to see what they were about to sail over or run into, but it does work. There is almost nothing as USELESS as a rich owner of a boat who is completely night-blind from having looked into electronic displays when it's time to go onto the foredeck and deal with a gear failure on a dark and stormy night. We had to tell one owner he wasn't allowed to EVER leave the cockpit after dark because he was constantly destroying his night vision with his iPhone and the various displays in his Command Center. Pitiful, he couldn't sail, he was effectively blind.

 

So..... I wouldn't put anything in the cockpit except a compass with a very dim light. Navigation instruments belong in that beautiful navigation station you're building down below, where the night-blind people live. Let the real sailor sail the boat in peace and in the dark. Geeesh next thing you know folks will want to turn on the spreader lights just to trim the sails.... geeesh!

 

Just my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

 

B

 

Grump mode off now.

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1333071793[/url]' post='3649983']

ND,

 

You know I'm a real curmudgeon about instruments - I actually hate them. (Grump mode going on) That said, be really careful with how much light gets generated (even when the interments are "off") in your cockpit. I can't tell you how many times I've ended up duct taping bags over instruments on deliveries to keep them from blinding me. It has made me the grumpy guy I am on this topic.

 

Boats managed to explore almost ever inch of the known world without GPS, RADAR, AIS, and Chart Plotters. Yes, they did have to actually look out over the bow to see what they were about to sail over or run into, but it does work. There is almost nothing as USELESS as a rich owner of a boat who is completely night-blind from having looked into electronic displays when it's time to go onto the foredeck and deal with a gear failure on a dark and stormy night. We had to tell one owner he wasn't allowed to EVER leave the cockpit after dark because he was constantly destroying his night vision with his iPhone and the various displays in his Command Center. Pitiful, he couldn't sail, he was effectively blind.

 

So..... I wouldn't put anything in the cockpit except a compass with a very dim light. Navigation instruments belong in that beautiful navigation station you're building down below, where the night-blind people live. Let the real sailor sail the boat in peace and in the dark. Geeesh next thing you know folks will want to turn on the spreader lights just to trim the sails.... geeesh!

 

Just my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

 

B

 

Grump mode off now.

 

+1

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+2 -- BV, Not sure where if anywhere I suggested that I disagreed but I agree 100% -- compass; AP controller (pocket); Cigar lighter (other pocket). Too much light? Don't think so.

 

1333071793[/url]' post='3649983']

ND,

 

You know I'm a real curmudgeon about instruments - I actually hate them. (Grump mode going on) That said, be really careful with how much light gets generated (even when the interments are "off") in your cockpit. I can't tell you how many times I've ended up duct taping bags over instruments on deliveries to keep them from blinding me. It has made me the grumpy guy I am on this topic.

 

Boats managed to explore almost ever inch of the known world without GPS, RADAR, AIS, and Chart Plotters. Yes, they did have to actually look out over the bow to see what they were about to sail over or run into, but it does work. There is almost nothing as USELESS as a rich owner of a boat who is completely night-blind from having looked into electronic displays when it's time to go onto the foredeck and deal with a gear failure on a dark and stormy night. We had to tell one owner he wasn't allowed to EVER leave the cockpit after dark because he was constantly destroying his night vision with his iPhone and the various displays in his Command Center. Pitiful, he couldn't sail, he was effectively blind.

 

So..... I wouldn't put anything in the cockpit except a compass with a very dim light. Navigation instruments belong in that beautiful navigation station you're building down below, where the night-blind people live. Let the real sailor sail the boat in peace and in the dark. Geeesh next thing you know folks will want to turn on the spreader lights just to trim the sails.... geeesh!

 

Just my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

 

B

 

Grump mode off now.

 

+1

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ND & Bob, That cotpit is something else, I'm still getting my head around it!

First impresion was WTF! then the more I look at the more I like it!

I remember seeing the renderinds of it and liking it but even the photoes of the mock-up change the prespictive.

 

I have some thoughts on what I think but I need to digest what I have seen before I can make constructive comments.

 

One thing that sticks out like dog's ball's is that the builders are taking this build on like one of their babies, "This is a build we will be proud of".

 

Thank you to Nessun Dorma for taking us along this build and Thanks to the builders for letting you post photoes as you go.

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Thank you for the kind words. Please feel free to pass on any comments or thoughts, that's why we have the WLYDO up and running. :D PM me if you wish as well.

 

+1 to the Pacific Seacraft guys being proud and treating this project like it's their own baby. That's the way they do things, you can feel it when you're in the shop. Most of the workers and their families were moved by the current owners, the Brodie's, from California to North Carolina to come build boats side by side with Carolina traditional boat guys. Maybe there's some healthy competition, but mostly I think its that, while the existing PSC line has great Crealock boats and a superb reputation for high quality, PSC hasn't had a new model for more than 20 years. They're honored to be working with Bob and the guys look at this project as a kind of new beginning, if that makes sense, so yes, all of them are really into the boat.

 

ND & Bob, That cotpit is something else, I'm still getting my head around it!

First impresion was WTF! then the more I look at the more I like it!

I remember seeing the renderinds of it and liking it but even the photoes of the mock-up change the prespictive.

 

I have some thoughts on what I think but I need to digest what I have seen before I can make constructive comments.

 

One thing that sticks out like dog's ball's is that the builders are taking this build on like one of their babies, "This is a build we will be proud of".

 

Thank you to Nessun Dorma for taking us along this build and Thanks to the builders for letting you post photoes as you go.

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I agree Beau, except for a depth sounder, we live in a world where deep water is scarce. An mfd at the helm is handy, it doesn't need to be bright. We'll re-anchor the boat at the drop of a hat if the wind goes around. We also have an mfd above our bunk.

 

ND,

 

You know I'm a real curmudgeon about instruments - I actually hate them. (Grump mode going on) That said, be really careful with how much light gets generated (even when the interments are "off") in your cockpit. I can't tell you how many times I've ended up duct taping bags over instruments on deliveries to keep them from blinding me. It has made me the grumpy guy I am on this topic.

 

Boats managed to explore almost ever inch of the known world without GPS, RADAR, AIS, and Chart Plotters. Yes, they did have to actually look out over the bow to see what they were about to sail over or run into, but it does work. There is almost nothing as USELESS as a rich owner of a boat who is completely night-blind from having looked into electronic displays when it's time to go onto the foredeck and deal with a gear failure on a dark and stormy night. We had to tell one owner he wasn't allowed to EVER leave the cockpit after dark because he was constantly destroying his night vision with his iPhone and the various displays in his Command Center. Pitiful, he couldn't sail, he was effectively blind.

 

So..... I wouldn't put anything in the cockpit except a compass with a very dim light. Navigation instruments belong in that beautiful navigation station you're building down below, where the night-blind people live. Let the real sailor sail the boat in peace and in the dark. Geeesh next thing you know folks will want to turn on the spreader lights just to trim the sails.... geeesh!

 

Just my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

 

B

 

Grump mode off now.

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ND - Thanks for taking us along on the build process. You mentioned discussion with PSC on the cockpit size while looking over the mock-up. Made me think about cockpit drainage. Where are the drains going to be situated? How does the cockpit sole slope? Looks like there is a step up from the cuddy area to the helm section, and a step at the companionway entrance. So would any boarding water end up in the cuddy area footwell to drain out?

 

BTW that curved helm area seating looks like it will work very well for sundowners.

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1333071793[/url]' post='3649983']

ND,

 

You know I'm a real curmudgeon about instruments - I actually hate them. (Grump mode going on) That said, be really careful with how much light gets generated (even when the interments are "off") in your cockpit. I can't tell you how many times I've ended up duct taping bags over instruments on deliveries to keep them from blinding me. It has made me the grumpy guy I am on this topic.

 

Boats managed to explore almost ever inch of the known world without GPS, RADAR, AIS, and Chart Plotters. Yes, they did have to actually look out over the bow to see what they were about to sail over or run into, but it does work. There is almost nothing as USELESS as a rich owner of a boat who is completely night-blind from having looked into electronic displays when it's time to go onto the foredeck and deal with a gear failure on a dark and stormy night. We had to tell one owner he wasn't allowed to EVER leave the cockpit after dark because he was constantly destroying his night vision with his iPhone and the various displays in his Command Center. Pitiful, he couldn't sail, he was effectively blind.

 

So..... I wouldn't put anything in the cockpit except a compass with a very dim light. Navigation instruments belong in that beautiful navigation station you're building down below, where the night-blind people live. Let the real sailor sail the boat in peace and in the dark. Geeesh next thing you know folks will want to turn on the spreader lights just to trim the sails.... geeesh!

 

Just my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

 

B

 

Grump mode off now.

 

...OR you can just put the instument covers on.

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That's the plan yes, although there will be drains aft as well. The "step" at the companionway is a sill that will be as tall as we can make it without posing a tripping hazard or restricting height overhead. When we left the mockup that seemed to be around 5", maybe 6" (you step over it then down one step). There also are two watertight drop boards planned that slide in front of the companionway doors. One or both will be in place whenever it's warranted. If (when) we get surprised the sill is the first line of defense. We debated a full raised bridge deck and may yet go that way, but for now we are leaning against it. Hope that makes sense.

 

ND - Thanks for taking us along on the build process. You mentioned discussion with PSC on the cockpit size while looking over the mock-up. Made me think about cockpit drainage. Where are the drains going to be situated? How does the cockpit sole slope? Looks like there is a step up from the cuddy area to the helm section, and a step at the companionway entrance. So would any boarding water end up in the cuddy area footwell to drain out?

 

BTW that curved helm area seating looks like it will work very well for sundowners.

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ND, I didn't mean to imply you were a instrument nut in my grumpy post. I was just mouthing off on something I feel strongly about.

 

Joli, I understand that one needs to know how deep it is, and there are places (mostly bays and in the dark) where it's not possible to just look at the water color, but I've found that a lot of the instruments are quite bright at night even with the display turned into the "off" position. Little monitor lights, lit keys etc..., and many of them turn "off" by simply setting the LCD (better with LED displays) to "block" the back-light rather than actually turning it off. This allows a LOT of light leakage around the edges; and while the screen looks "black" during the day, on a pitch black night you can practically read by the thing.

 

Regarding re-anchoring, my worst events have been some clown turning on a light below or flicking on the display of the RADAR so they can "look at where we are" and destroying my night vision as a problem is developing. My practice is to get up, get dressed in the dark, go on deck and look around. If I think there's a need for a nav instrument, then terrific I'll turn one on and in shallow water that will certainly be a depth finder. But, once those things are on, you've removed the option of just looking around and really inhibited your ability to function well on deck in the dark.

 

Guys, I know I'm a little extreme about all this, but it comes from experiences like having to sort out a wrapped chute in the dark and being unable to see the damn thing because some idiot couldn't find his socks without turning on a light as he was getting up.

 

I really will stop being grumpy now.

 

B-)

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ND, I didn't mean to imply you were a instrument nut in my grumpy post. I was just mouthing off on something I feel strongly about.

 

Joli, I understand that one needs to know how deep it is, and there are places (mostly bays and in the dark) where it's not possible to just look at the water color, but I've found that a lot of the instruments are quite bright at night even with the display turned into the "off" position. Little monitor lights, lit keys etc..., and many of them turn "off" by simply setting the LCD (better with LED displays) to "block" the back-light rather than actually turning it off. This allows a LOT of light leakage around the edges; and while the screen looks "black" during the day, on a pitch black night you can practically read by the thing.

 

Regarding re-anchoring, my worst events have been some clown turning on a light below or flicking on the display of the RADAR so they can "look at where we are" and destroying my night vision as a problem is developing. My practice is to get up, get dressed in the dark, go on deck and look around. If I think there's a need for a nav instrument, then terrific I'll turn one on and in shallow water that will certainly be a depth finder. But, once those things are on, you've removed the option of just looking around and really inhibited your ability to function well on deck in the dark.

 

Guys, I know I'm a little extreme about all this, but it comes from experiences like having to sort out a wrapped chute in the dark and being unable to see the damn thing because some idiot couldn't find his socks without turning on a light as he was getting up.

 

I really will stop being grumpy now.

 

B-)

 

I also like it dark- remember the thread about pirate eye patches? Maybe you should have one.

 

 

 

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...

Guys, I know I'm a little extreme about all this, but it comes from experiences like having to sort out a wrapped chute in the dark and being unable to see the damn thing because some idiot couldn't find his socks without turning on a light as he was getting up.

 

I really will stop being grumpy now.

 

B-)

 

At least you weren't hanging half off the foredeck wrestling with a spinnaker wrap ... at night of course... when a dumbass in the cockpit decides to take a flash picture of the action.

 

The photo didn't turn out, either.

 

FB- Doug

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ND, I didn't mean to imply you were a instrument nut in my grumpy post. I was just mouthing off on something I feel strongly about.

 

Joli, I understand that one needs to know how deep it is, and there are places (mostly bays and in the dark) where it's not possible to just look at the water color, but I've found that a lot of the instruments are quite bright at night even with the display turned into the "off" position. Little monitor lights, lit keys etc..., and many of them turn "off" by simply setting the LCD (better with LED displays) to "block" the back-light rather than actually turning it off. This allows a LOT of light leakage around the edges; and while the screen looks "black" during the day, on a pitch black night you can practically read by the thing.

 

Regarding re-anchoring, my worst events have been some clown turning on a light below or flicking on the display of the RADAR so they can "look at where we are" and destroying my night vision as a problem is developing. My practice is to get up, get dressed in the dark, go on deck and look around. If I think there's a need for a nav instrument, then terrific I'll turn one on and in shallow water that will certainly be a depth finder. But, once those things are on, you've removed the option of just looking around and really inhibited your ability to function well on deck in the dark.

 

Guys, I know I'm a little extreme about all this, but it comes from experiences like having to sort out a wrapped chute in the dark and being unable to see the damn thing because some idiot couldn't find his socks without turning on a light as he was getting up.

 

I really will stop being grumpy now.

 

B-)

 

That's what eyelids are for. You close them before your night vision is wrecked.

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Guys, I know I'm a little extreme about all this, but it comes from experiences like having to sort out a wrapped chute in the dark and being unable to see the damn thing because some idiot couldn't find his socks without turning on a light as he was getting up.

 

I really will stop being grumpy now.

 

B-)

 

Your real problem there is that your on a boat with some fellow who thinks he need to put his fucking socks on before he can get his arse on deck to deal with a wrap.

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+1

Or the foreguy that's parted.

 

 

Guys, I know I'm a little extreme about all this, but it comes from experiences like having to sort out a wrapped chute in the dark and being unable to see the damn thing because some idiot couldn't find his socks without turning on a light as he was getting up.

 

I really will stop being grumpy now.

 

B-)

 

Your real problem there is that your on a boat with some fellow who thinks he need to put his fucking socks on before he can get his arse on deck to deal with a wrap.

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All,

 

OK, I think we're all in violent agreement that when all hell breaks loose you should run barefooted onto the foredeck with your pirate eyepatch on and deal with it! Also, that we should keep it dark aboard so we can avoid stubbing our toes on those pesky cleats while we're dashing around barefoot. :D

 

I'll stop hijacking ND's thread now and return to our regularly scheduled programming. (I do love Steam Flyer's comment about the Flash Photo :unsure: Geeesh!!)

 

Beau

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...

Guys, I know I'm a little extreme about all this, but it comes from experiences like having to sort out a wrapped chute in the dark and being unable to see the damn thing because some idiot couldn't find his socks without turning on a light as he was getting up.

 

I really will stop being grumpy now.

 

B-)

 

At least you weren't hanging half off the foredeck wrestling with a spinnaker wrap ... at night of course... when a dumbass in the cockpit decides to take a flash picture of the action.

 

The photo didn't turn out, either.

 

FB- Doug

 

Is that because you threw his camera overboard?

 

 

 

 

 

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Guys, I know I'm a little extreme about all this, but it comes from experiences like having to sort out a wrapped chute in the dark and being unable to see the damn thing because some idiot couldn't find his socks without turning on a light as he was getting up.

Or when the skipper insists that the spreader lights need to be turned on so when we look up to try to untangle halyards all we can see is the lights glaring in our eyes!

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ND and Bob,

 

I have been having a long debate with some folks about cockpit drain size. Could either of you opine on the ration of cubic feet of water to drain cross sectional area. Given the size of Catari's cockpit, I'm guessing you had that conversation.

 

BV

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Kdh,

 

It occurred to me that ND could just open the transom swim-step to let the water out. I can't and I'm a little worried about the weight aboard when we get buried. It's blowing 30-40 knots today, gusts to 55k, swell is NW at 20' and a S wind chop on top of it of about 7'. Of course we're holding the Double Handed Farallon's Race today and there will be a lot of FULL cockpits on the tight reach home from the island. Sadly, I'll miss the fun as we're fixing a bent prop shaft.

 

Beau

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kdh:

I think that is a butt ugly cabin trunk. You think they could go back and look at some of their old desgins and see at what made a good looking cabin trunk.

Nice cover stripe though.

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1333207637[/url]' post='3651860']

Kdh,

 

It occurred to me that ND could just open the transom swim-step to let the water out. I can't and I'm a little worried about the weight aboard when we get buried. It's blowing 30-40 knots today, gusts to 55k, swell is NW at 20' and a S wind chop on top of it of about 7'. Of course we're holding the Double Handed Farallon's Race today and there will be a lot of FULL cockpits on the tight reach home from the island. Sadly, I'll miss the fun as we're fixing a bent prop shaft.

 

Beau

 

BV, how did you bent the shaft? Kim

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I like how that 'wing deck' or whatever it's called aft is perfectly aligned with the back of the skippers knees. Get knocked back a few steps by a wave and you're clipped like a rookie quarterback.

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1333207637[/url]' post='3651860']

Kdh,

 

It occurred to me that ND could just open the transom swim-step to let the water out. I can't and I'm a little worried about the weight aboard when we get buried. It's blowing 30-40 knots today, gusts to 55k, swell is NW at 20' and a S wind chop on top of it of about 7'. Of course we're holding the Double Handed Farallon's Race today and there will be a lot of FULL cockpits on the tight reach home from the island. Sadly, I'll miss the fun as we're fixing a bent prop shaft.

 

Beau

 

BV, how did you bent the shaft? Kim

 

K,

 

It seems to have been bent since before we bought her. We attributed excessive motor vibration to worn mounts, wrong diagnosis. While we're in there we re-doing isolator as well.

 

B

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1333207948[/url]' post='3651873']
1333207758[/url]' post='3651866']
1333207637[/url]' post='3651860']

Kdh,

 

It occurred to me that ND could just open the transom swim-step to let the water out. I can't and I'm a little worried about the weight aboard when we get buried. It's blowing 30-40 knots today, gusts to 55k, swell is NW at 20' and a S wind chop on top of it of about 7'. Of course we're holding the Double Handed Farallon's Race today and there will be a lot of FULL cockpits on the tight reach home from the island. Sadly, I'll miss the fun as we're fixing a bent prop shaft.

 

Beau

 

BV, how did you bent the shaft? Kim

 

K,

 

It seems to have been bent since before we bought her. We attributed excessive motor vibration to worn mounts, wrong diagnosis. While we're in there we re-doing isolator as well.

 

B

 

smart move

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kdh:

I think that is a butt ugly cabin trunk. You think they could go back and look at some of their old desgins and see at what made a good looking cabin trunk.

Nice cover stripe though.

To my eye now that I look I agree with you, Bob. Especially aft it's too bulky, with too much curvature. It's generally not harmonious with the hull.

 

I can't imagine building a boat without a real transom anyway.

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kdh:

I think that is a butt ugly cabin trunk. You think they could go back and look at some of their old desgins and see at what made a good looking cabin trunk.

Nice cover stripe though.

To my eye now that I look I agree with you, Bob. Especially aft it's too bulky, with too much curvature. It's generally not harmonious with the hull.

 

I can't imagine building a boat without a real transom anyway.

 

With my little boat, Moore-24, folks are cutting the transoms out. Reasons: lets water out faster than 2x2" drains, you can get yourself back aboard, looks more "modern". The second reason is the good one, although the last one is probibly compelling the behavior. BV

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At first glance I understand the open cockpit idea on that S&S boat, but many of these designs look too open. It is easy to see how something important like a child, or a beer, could fly right out the back. I also think that although they let a lot of water out fast, a moderate wave could let a lot in and then wash you out the stern. Although sugar scoop sterns are about the worst look for a boat, they seem to be a good compromise for boarding and security for cruising.

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kdh:

I think that is a butt ugly cabin trunk. You think they could go back and look at some of their old desgins and see at what made a good looking cabin trunk.

Nice cover stripe though.

 

It looks like the side of the cabin trunk has *less* slope as you go forward.

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Slap:

I agree but I think that is an illusion. I think the slope is the samne as it goes forward. And there lies the problem. If you do that you create the effect that there is less slope foward. I learned that on the Valiant 40. I looked at the V40 cabin trunk and ask4ed myself, "Did I draw it like that?" I said back to myself, "Yes you did. You idiot. Now, never do that again." I was 29 years old.

 

I think some of the very best looking cabin trunks were built by Jerry Driscol when he built a series of S&S boats all around 46 to 50' BRUSHFIRE is a boat name that comes to mind. I was never sure of how much of it was Driscol's eye and how much was the S&S drawings. I suspect the nuances of those shape is more Driscol's responsability. Jerry Driscol once lectured me on cabin trun design and I listened. Mt feelings were hurt but I knew I was learning something from a master.

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Personally, I think the trunk is too high forward. Like the eyebrow is almost parallel to the sheer, and I don't think it should be like that. Or at least, it should taper more. But I'm not yacht designer.

 

Sorry I keep using this as an example, but it's all I know. :) I'm sure someone can provide a better example.

 

BABA%2030-003-thumb-400x537-308.jpg

 

edit:

 

Maybe this is a better example

 

Tartan 37

 

tartan37-sailplan.gif

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Now that's a fine little looking hooker.

 

Nice post to land at the top of a page.....thought i'd fallen into the GA rabbit hole and had to go take a look.

 

 

 

I have to say Bob, I'm a little disappointed.

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Sons,

 

My "rule-of-thumb" with respect to truck cabins etc... has been that the lines they appear to create with their eyebrow, top edge, top and bottom edge of ports and windows, etc.... should all intersect the tip of the bow of the boat if that line was extended forward. Boats that do this, I seem to like the look of.

 

 

 

Bob,

 

As to the Valiant-40 cabin sides, I'd never been able to put my finger on what it was I didn't like about the shape. Now I know and you're exactly right. Thanks!

 

Beau

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kdh:

I think that is a butt ugly cabin trunk. You think they could go back and look at some of their old desgins and see at what made a good looking cabin trunk.

Nice cover stripe though.

 

Cabin trunk? I didn't get that far because the off-center companionway stopped me cold. You'd think a firm like S&S would know better. smile.gif

 

 

 

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ND - I am excited for you that your dream boat Catari, is starting to take wing on a physical level now. All your thorough planning and prep, and an incredible design. I look forward to watching the build through your posts and photos. Thanks for sharing

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Back to the cotpit.

 

ND & Bob, Do the two + two seats in the forward part of the cotpit have to be parallel or could they be made to face aft slightly, opening up the area slightly? (increasing the gap in the aft end between the seats)

 

One reason I give for this change (and you may find this a little silly) is that that is a place where people feeling a little green around the gills are going to go for fresh air and shelter, facing the seats aft a little will help them to look at the horizon.

 

Other reasons too, just that one was a bit, well, maybe unthought of.

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