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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  

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INTER 20

PV race cheaters

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Not the best wording due to the ambiguous use of 'ballast' and undefined 'properly stowed'. However, sense makes sense!

 

Here:

 

1. Sails are not ballast.

 

2. In rule 51 only, sails are included as moveable ballast. Hence, the rule indicates that you can move them, so long as you properly stow them.

 

3. "Shall be properly stowed" is not defined. This should be people's problem... However, it must mean (since you can move it - 'moveable') that whatever moveable ballast you have, is properly secured and locked down in whatever position you have moved it to. It just can't be bouncing around below decks, or if you have moved it up on deck it is lashed. There is nothing saying where you can move the ballast to or can't move ballast to.

 

4. Second sentence of rule 51 is the problem. Here it mentions ballast again. Since 'moveable ballast' has already been dealt with, we must consider that 'ballast' in the second sentence means 'any ballast which is not moveable'. e.g. you can't send a diver down to take your keel off, and hang it off the windward rail. You can't take the water tank and pull it up to the high side of the cabin. You can't unbolt your inboard engine from the normal engine mounts and heave it up to weather.

 

i.e. ALL OTHER BALLAST must be left in the position they are meant to be in.

 

5. Internal fixtures must be left in place.

 

Hope that helps.

 

DW

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Not the best wording due to the ambiguous use of 'ballast' and undefined 'properly stowed'. However, sense makes sense!

 

Here:

 

1. Sails are not ballast.

 

2. In rule 51 only, sails are included as moveable ballast. Hence, the rule indicates that you can move them, so long as you properly stow them.

 

3. "Shall be properly stowed" is not defined. This should be people's problem... However, it must mean (since you can move it - 'moveable') that whatever moveable ballast you have, is properly secured and locked down in whatever position you have moved it to. It just can't be bouncing around below decks, or if you have moved it up on deck it is lashed. There is nothing saying where you can move the ballast to or can't move ballast to.

 

4. Second sentence of rule 51 is the problem. Here it mentions ballast again. Since 'moveable ballast' has already been dealt with, we must consider that 'ballast' in the second sentence means 'any ballast which is not moveable'. e.g. you can't send a diver down to take your keel off, and hang it off the windward rail. You can't take the water tank and pull it up to the high side of the cabin. You can't unbolt your inboard engine from the normal engine mounts and heave it up to weather.

 

i.e. ALL OTHER BALLAST must be left in the position they are meant to be in.

 

5. Internal fixtures must be left in place.

 

Hope that helps.

 

DW

before you move any ballast, a question to be asked is "IS THE BOAT RATED WITH MOVEABLE BALLAST ?"

 

if the answer is NO then you can't move anything that can act as ballast and all the convoluted debate about RRS does not mean a thing

 

just thought i'd point that out...

 

cheers,

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Not the best wording due to the ambiguous use of 'ballast' and undefined 'properly stowed'. However, sense makes sense!

 

Here:

 

1. Sails are not ballast.

 

2. In rule 51 only, sails are included as moveable ballast. Hence, the rule indicates that you can move them, so long as you properly stow them.

 

3. "Shall be properly stowed" is not defined. This should be people's problem... However, it must mean (since you can move it - 'moveable') that whatever moveable ballast you have, is properly secured and locked down in whatever position you have moved it to. It just can't be bouncing around below decks, or if you have moved it up on deck it is lashed. There is nothing saying where you can move the ballast to or can't move ballast to.

 

4. Second sentence of rule 51 is the problem. Here it mentions ballast again. Since 'moveable ballast' has already been dealt with, we must consider that 'ballast' in the second sentence means 'any ballast which is not moveable'. e.g. you can't send a diver down to take your keel off, and hang it off the windward rail. You can't take the water tank and pull it up to the high side of the cabin. You can't unbolt your inboard engine from the normal engine mounts and heave it up to weather.

 

i.e. ALL OTHER BALLAST must be left in the position they are meant to be in.

 

5. Internal fixtures must be left in place.

 

Hope that helps.

 

DW

before you move any ballast, a question to be asked is "IS THE BOAT RATED WITH MOVEABLE BALLAST ?"

 

if the answer is NO then you can't move anything that can act as ballast and all the convoluted debate about RRS does not mean a thing

 

just thought i'd point that out...

 

cheers,

 

Not sure about that.

 

Are boats rated for 'moveable ballast'? I thought a boat is rated for specific moveable ballast. e.g. is rated for its canting keel. That does not mean every cup, saucer, pot or pan or sail not set must be left in the same position on the boat for the race!

 

 

 

Clarification:

 

'Properly stowed'

 

"Properly' as per its intended design OR in a sensible and safe manner."

 

IF there is a purposefully designed means of securing, then it should be used

 

ELSE properly stowed must mean something like,'secured in a sensible and seamanlike way' so its shifting cannot increase risk or cause damage to people or property.

 

Hence a sail on deck, in its bag and lashed down is acceptable. A sail on deck with a couple of sail ties flapping around and about to blow off, is not acceptable.

 

An anchor securely fixed so it can't move or risk puncturing the hull is acceptable. An anchor which could slide around is not acceptable

 

An inboard engine attached to a specially designed engine mount is acceptable. An inboard engine lashed to the floor when there is a specially designed engine mount available is not acceptable

 

SECOND SENTENCE OF RULE 51. Water, dead weight or ballast.

 

Water - self-explanatory

Dead Weight - The fixed Weight which serves no specific purpose during the race. e.g. An inboard engine required by Cat 1. The hull structure of the boat.

*Ballast - In this sentence, it means Weight specifically INSTALLED / attached / added to influence the stability, flotation or total weight of the boat. e.g. a keel.

 

So in the second sentence, ballast is used in its purest form as weight specifically for that purpose, rather than say weight of any general object.

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cheating is cheatin'

 

it is what it is... despite the attempts to spin it

 

 

everyone who broke the rule should RAF.

 

 

i didn't participate in this race, and am not in any way an interested party.

 

my comments in this thread were mostly in response to those who though that rules banning access to tracker data are the norm.

 

they are not.

 

in fact, as i mentioned, expedition has a built-in tool for displaying tracking data.

 

many races go so far as to provide the data in a format suited to low bandwidth connections, in the expedition format.

 

here is the link for low bandwidth access to tracking of the Cabo race, which started yesterday.

 

http://yb.tl/links/cabo2012

 

i'm not sure why, but a few seem to think that by pointing out that tracking is not banned in other races, i am somehow excusing it in this race...

 

i am not - everyone who broke the rule should RAF.

 

while i might feel sorry for a navigator who didn't read the emails or the SI's, and now has to retire, that doesn't mean they should be excused.

 

the SI's do not permit an alternate penalty for this, and they have no choice but to retire.

 

anyone who accessed the tracking data, knowing it was not allowed, cheated. there is no other word for it.

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4. Second sentence of rule 51 is the problem. Here it mentions ballast again. Since 'moveable ballast' has already been dealt with, we must consider that 'ballast' in the second sentence means 'any ballast which is not moveable'. e.g. you can't send a diver down to take your keel off, and hang it off the windward rail. You can't take the water tank and pull it up to the high side of the cabin. You can't unbolt your inboard engine from the normal engine mounts and heave it up to weather.

 

 

DW

 

why? Why do he have to consider that ballast in the second sentence means any ballast that is not moveable... if we do the sentence makes no sense.

 

"Ballast which is not moveable shall not be moved......". pretty damn redundant.

 

what part of this excludes moveable ballast?

why does the syndey hobart include an SI chnaging RRS 51 to allow you to move moveable ballast for the purposed of altering trim and stability?

 

 

the first sentence includes sails not set as moveable ballast, there is nothing in the second sentence which excludes moveable ballast. (which is defined in the equipment rules as a type of ballast.)

 

Moveable ballast is not ballast which may be moved without breaking a rule, it is ballast which it is possible to move. And sure you are allowed to move moveable ballast in the race as long as you don't do so for the purposed of altering trim or stability.

you can move the anchor to kedge, but you can't move it to trim the boat.

 

.

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before you move any ballast, a question to be asked is "IS THE BOAT RATED WITH MOVEABLE BALLAST ?"

 

if the answer is NO then you can't move anything that can act as ballast and all the convoluted debate about RRS does not mean a thing

 

just thought i'd point that out...

 

cheers,

 

I would agree with this you cant move anything that can act as ballast for the purpose of altering trim or stability.

you can move if for any activity associated with its function

 

you cant move the anchor on every tack, you cant reposition that big box of tools to the high side on the high side each tack, You cant carry an 80lb bag of potatoes and move that each time you tack

 

 

you can move them as often as you want as long as you are doing it for some reason associated with their function, if you do it to alter the trim or stability of the boat... and you put them in a specific place for the purpose of altering trim or stability then the count as moveable ballast, and unless the SI's say otherwise (which many do) you cant move them around to alter the trim or stability of the boat.

 

 

Classes which allow moveable ballast to be used have class rules which change R51 to allow you to move moveable ballast to alter the trim or stability of the boat, as do races.,

 

here what the syndey hobart SI's include

Sydney Hobart 2011 SI's

35.3 Changes to RRS

.........

RRS 51: A boat with movable or variable ballast (within the meaning of those terms in the Special Regulations) may move that ballast for the purpose of changing trim or stability.

 

but of course according to DW that's totally unnecessary because all we have to do is assume that R51 doesn't actually mean moveable ballast when it says Ballast.

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Okay from my point of view only:

 

Before expedition and other routing software, just a couple of years ago for most boats, there was visual, radar and knowing your competion.

On Blue Blazes, we don't run radar because of the weight and energy consumption. So we rely on visual and knowing the sailing tendencies of our competors.

 

This is a 5 to 7 night race.

 

It's likely that after two nights the fleet is pretty spread out. Once the fleet is spread out is when we like to make a move. We make these moves based on the conditions we are seeing and what we think we know about the personalities and capabilities of our competion.

 

I guess with the tracking, it takes a lot of that away. That really changes the whole game. If you are going to make fundamental changes to the game that's cool, just be ware of unintended consequences.

 

I know that expedition has a way to have low bandwidth info sent to to the fleet. It also has a way for me to email Nick or any other on shore weather guy. Should we say that's just the way it is now? Like it or not.

 

Maybe I'm getting older, but I look at navigators like 7070 who by his profile is 21 years old. That's great, congratulations on being a navigator. But no offense you haven't lived long enough to have sailed as many miles and in as many long distance races to have a history to tell us how common something is or is not in ocean sailboat racing.

 

When you have many races under your belt you have some things you know that the other guys don't. If the next generation of navigators can track us from 35 miles behind us and just let the guys in front be the canary in the coal mine, what does he learn about the course? What does learn about his competition? What knowledge will he pass on to the next generation?

 

PAC cup, PV, islands race, ensenada, the other cabo race, are all races that do not allow the use of the tracker to preserve the style of ocean racing that we have here.

 

In the interest of safety, we carry the tracker. My mom loves it. But it should not be used by the boats on the course. Certainly not if the si's don't permit it.

 

7070, come sailing with us sometime. We are fun. Sorry again about attributing the j/35 stuff to you.

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Here's what the PV SI's say

 

1.9 RRS 51 (Movable Ballast) and RRS 52 (Manual Power) are modified as follows:

1.9.1 The movement of sails not in use while racing is allowed. However all gear and sails not being flown must remain within a boat's lifelines.

1.9.2 RRS 51 Movable Ballast and RRS 52 Manual Power are modified to permit powered winches and the positioning of hull appendages, specifically adjustable keels, or water ballast by hydraulic or electric power only on boats so designed and so rated by the Rating Authority. All powered systems shall be capable of manual operation if powered systems are inoperable. All other boats shall comply with RRS 51 and RRS 52.

1.9.3 Movable ballast systems designed and rated for the boat (excluding canting ballast strut and bulb) including reservoirs, pipes, tubes, tackle, etc. shall be positioned inside the hull and shall be firmly and indefectibly integrated with the structure of the boat. Movable ballast shall only be used within such systems and shall be seawater only, to the exclusion of all other liquids.

 

again all totally unnecessary?

are these guys all fools, don't they understand that all of this is allowed by R51 anyway, we just have to read it the way we want to....?? really?

 

I'm sure there are plenty of other examples out there

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Okay from my point of view only:

 

Before expedition and other routing software, just a couple of years ago for most boats, there was visual, radar and knowing your competion.

On Blue Blazes, we don't run radar because of the weight and energy consumption. So we rely on visual and knowing the sailing tendencies of our competors.

 

This is a 5 to 7 night race.

 

It's likely that after two nights the fleet is pretty spread out. Once the fleet is spread out is when we like to make a move. We make these moves based on the conditions we are seeing and what we think we know about the personalities and capabilities of our competion.

 

I guess with the tracking, it takes a lot of that away. That really changes the whole game. If you are going to make fundamental changes to the game that's cool, just be ware of unintended consequences.

 

I know that expedition has a way to have low bandwidth info sent to to the fleet. It also has a way for me to email Nick or any other on shore weather guy. Should we say that's just the way it is now? Like it or not.

 

Maybe I'm getting older, but I look at navigators like 7070 who by his profile is 21 years old. That's great, congratulations on being a navigator. But no offense you haven't lived long enough to have sailed as many miles and in as many long distance races to have a history to tell us how common something is or is not in ocean sailboat racing.

 

When you have many races under your belt you have some things you know that the other guys don't. If the next generation of navigators can track us from 35 miles behind us and just let the guys in front be the canary in the coal mine, what does he learn about the course? What does learn about his competition? What knowledge will he pass on to the next generation?

 

PAC cup, PV, islands race, ensenada, the other cabo race, are all races that do not allow the use of the tracker to preserve the style of ocean racing that we have here.

 

In the interest of safety, we carry the tracker. My mom loves it. But it should not be used by the boats on the course. Certainly not if the si's don't permit it.

 

7070, come sailing with us sometime. We are fun. Sorry again about attributing the j/35 stuff to you.

 

Just ot be clear you're argument boils down to:

 

People can't learn things about the course or their competitors from a source of information that provides information on both of those things because that source is new-fangled and not your old, grizzled, sea-salted style. At the same time, the things competitor can learn, you don't want them to know because it takes away your secret sauce.

 

IfThe second point I find especially interesting because if the rest of the fleet is so spread out that the only way they will know you "made a move" is with the tracker, it would stand to reason that their going to be far enough away that chasing you down would almost certainly be foolhardy. That is unless you are so superior to every other navigator on the west coast, with such in depth knowledge of the Pacific Ocean, that chasing you and hoping for the best is the only way they can hope for a win.

 

Now unless your name is Stan Honey,and I don't think we can make that claim, especially given his far-reaching embrace of technology, this all smacks of technophobia just as the arguments against GPS, LORAN and everything else before turned out to be.

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Okay from my point of view only:

 

Before expedition and other routing software, just a couple of years ago for most boats, there was visual, radar and knowing your competion.

On Blue Blazes, we don't run radar because of the weight and energy consumption. So we rely on visual and knowing the sailing tendencies of our competors.

 

This is a 5 to 7 night race.

 

It's likely that after two nights the fleet is pretty spread out. Once the fleet is spread out is when we like to make a move. We make these moves based on the conditions we are seeing and what we think we know about the personalities and capabilities of our competion.

 

I guess with the tracking, it takes a lot of that away. That really changes the whole game. If you are going to make fundamental changes to the game that's cool, just be ware of unintended consequences.

 

I know that expedition has a way to have low bandwidth info sent to to the fleet. It also has a way for me to email Nick or any other on shore weather guy. Should we say that's just the way it is now? Like it or not.

 

Maybe I'm getting older, but I look at navigators like 7070 who by his profile is 21 years old. That's great, congratulations on being a navigator. But no offense you haven't lived long enough to have sailed as many miles and in as many long distance races to have a history to tell us how common something is or is not in ocean sailboat racing.

 

When you have many races under your belt you have some things you know that the other guys don't. If the next generation of navigators can track us from 35 miles behind us and just let the guys in front be the canary in the coal mine, what does he learn about the course? What does learn about his competition? What knowledge will he pass on to the next generation?

 

PAC cup, PV, islands race, ensenada, the other cabo race, are all races that do not allow the use of the tracker to preserve the style of ocean racing that we have here.

 

In the interest of safety, we carry the tracker. My mom loves it. But it should not be used by the boats on the course. Certainly not if the si's don't permit it.

 

7070, come sailing with us sometime. We are fun. Sorry again about attributing the j/35 stuff to you.

 

 

i'm not 21...

 

nor am i really taking a position on whether or not looking at the tracking data _should_ be allowed.

 

i understand your position, and it has some merit.

 

i was just saying that it is permitted in most races, and is a normal part of offshore racing today.

 

 

now before someone accuses me again of being soft on cheaters, i will state again that anyone who looked at the tracking data should RAF.

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comes a time in SA where every debait becomes like

 

GoldfishBowl.gif

 

 

so is it swimming clockwise or counterclockwise

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comes a time in SA where every debait becomes like

 

GoldfishBowl.gif

 

 

so is it swimming clockwise or counterclockwise

Debait meaning removing the worm from the hook. In your case letting the rule breakers off the hook.

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comes a time in SA where every debait becomes like

 

GoldfishBowl.gif

 

 

so is it swimming clockwise or counterclockwise

Debait meaning removing the worm from the hook. In your case letting the rule breakers off the hook.

 

so your saying counter clockwise

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comes a time in SA where every debait becomes like

 

GoldfishBowl.gif

 

 

so is it swimming clockwise or counterclockwise

Debait meaning removing the worm from the hook. In your case letting the rule breakers off the hook.

 

so your saying counter clockwise

It's now clear why you chose photography over writing. Good job! Northern or southern hemisphere?

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comes a time in SA where every debait becomes like

 

GoldfishBowl.gif

 

 

so is it swimming clockwise or counterclockwise

Debait meaning removing the worm from the hook. In your case letting the rule breakers off the hook.

 

No one, not a single person, in this thread has argued for letting rule breakers off the hook, it's unanimous that they should RAF.

 

The only things that have been up for debate are whether or not it's a silly rule and just what exactly RRS 51 has to say about sails.

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I have a few points:

 

1) Race organizers should promote enforcing penalties against rule breakers.

2) Race organizers should not write rules into S.I.s that are not enforceable.

3) Mini racing has enforceable rules that prohibit downloadable information from getting to the competitors. (They prohibit any communication equipment aboard except epirb, and short range vhf)

4) Most modern ocean racers want to carry onboard computers and transceivers that they want to use to send and receive all kinds of information.

5) With said capability aboard, there is no way to enforce a communication ban for certain (banned) types of information.

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CD, you're right. However, I felt that some posts were trying to steer the topic away from it's intended course. I'm not sure why. All of us who love this sport don't like this situation. My hope that the end result of these discussions will be to prevent this from reoccurring.

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What's the intended course of this discussion?

 

1) Voluntary RAF?

 

2) Anonymous ratting out?

 

3) Named ratting out?

 

4) PRO inquisition?

 

I don't think any of these are likely. I agree with you that it's a bad situation. Problem is you need to separate the "rule breaking" with actual advantage gained by said rule breaking. Was an advantage gained by breaking the rule? Was it tangible?

What was the tangible gain? If you can prove that, you have a case for DSQ.

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What's the intended course of this discussion?

 

1) Voluntary RAF?

 

2) Anonymous ratting out?

 

3) Named ratting out?

 

4) PRO inquisition?

 

I don't think any of these are likely. I agree with you that it's a bad situation. Problem is you need to separate the "rule breaking" with actual advantage gained by said rule breaking. Was an advantage gained by breaking the rule? Was it tangible?

What was the tangible gain? If you can prove that, you have a case for DSQ.

 

I'm sure I misunderstood, but are you saying there isn't a case for DSQ if there is no tangible gain

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What I said was:

 

"What was the tangible gain? If you can prove that, you have a case for DSQ."

 

Is that clear now?

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The S.I.s contain an unenforceable rule. The PRO probably recognizes that the rule can't be enforced without playing u-tube whack-a-mole. That's not a consistent method of enforcement.

 

If you can prove there was an advantage gained...with evidence...make a case.

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Many rules in SIs don't address any inherent potential for gain but if broken still are subject to some form of penalty. I don't think one can only use gain or no gain as the determining factor in validating the violation of a SI rule. A rule is a rule unless they are called guidelines. Rules are black and white while guidelines are gray. I'm not aware of any guidelines that govern our sport.

I don't expect any DSQs. A RAF may happen but don't count on it. Keeping this SI conflict from reoccurring should be our goal. The past really can't be changed but we can easily correct this going forward.

Lastly, if a rule isn't easily enforceable doesn't neccessarily make it a flawed rule.

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"I'm not aware of any guidelines that govern our sport." (Inter 20)

 

I think our sport's guideline is self enforcement. If you feel that a rule is broken, withdraw, or file a protest, don't call it out on a popular forum.

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I don't have a dog in this fight but I do know there is proof of yellowbrick monitoring within the youtube videos from the race...wink wink

 

is it this (at 2 min)?

 

heh heh heh :o

 

we have indisputable evidence of Karl Kwok confessing to breaking the rule. will he RAF?

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Karl's the guy with the power winches. Don't you think he would say bent, but not broken? Or, wait the rules say he is entitled use power winches, but not his comms system to follow yellow brick. He will surely see the distinction, and bow to the wisdom of the S.I.'s author! After all once it's in black and white there is no question of fairness, only of the letter of the law...

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What I said was:

 

"What was the tangible gain? If you can prove that, you have a case for DSQ."

 

Is that clear now?

 

 

So a boat can break any rule it wants, and if there is no tangible gain, it can't be DSQ'd

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"I'm not aware of any guidelines that govern our sport." (Inter 20)

 

I think our sport's guideline is self enforcement. If you feel that a rule is broken, withdraw, or file a protest, don't call it out on a popular forum.

Really ... what's the point of an internet forum like this if we can't discuss the problems?

 

It would have been an interesting protest to file. Unless you get get a witness from the crew of a boat that looked at the tracker to admit that, you couldn't provide enough evidence to bother with a protest.

 

And, for the most part, nobody in this thread has really drawn down on any particular boat. KK brought the attention on himself.

 

What do you think someone should do if they accessed YB Tracking during the race? Are you saying if they feel that breaking that particular rule was harmless, it's OK to just slide?

 

This really is just a discussion concerning integrity. It is a self enforcing sport, as you point out. And a rule's a rule, no matter how you feel about it.

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What I said was:

 

"What was the tangible gain? If you can prove that, you have a case for DSQ."

 

Is that clear now?

 

 

So a boat can break any rule it wants, and if there is no tangible gain, it can't be DSQ'd

 

You said that, I didn't.

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this is ritch

 

an Inter 20 and a laser (pair of socks) ranting on about the PV race that included neither

 

swimming laps and getting the same new idea to share each time round

 

you 2 are a perfect match like you were joined at the hip (or more likely the lips)

 

I just swam another lap and re-thought this idea

 

 

as for the Damning YouTube Video

 

what was the context of the filming

 

did "Bo Jest" ?????

 

I didn't hear him say we were tracking the tracking

 

he said something to the effect "Something went down" and the only way to know the others was using YB = Did NOT Say They DID use it !!!!!!

 

 

like saying the Breeze was 28 true then died and the only way we could kept moving was to run the engine = [WOODY-Translate] "We Just Facking Sat There"

 

What he said was NOT an answer to a Question asked

 

If you want to take some words spoken by someone from another country (who may group words differently)

 

and then put it with your question - it's entertainment at best

 

"If" You want to get to the bottom of an issue Just Ask the Guy what you want to know

 

 

have either of "YOU" an interest (vested or not)

 

State your Real name - State your case - Tell us why you didn't properly file a protest

 

AND send a "Proper Question" to the person who is possibly being slandered (If he didn't view YB underway)

 

by anonymous posers on an international internet forum

 

WE by now know who you are talking about and what you are accusing them of having done

 

If you have any media savvy you will know that is a dangerous route to take

 

as the intent is ridicule rather than jurisprudence wink.gif

 

 

Everyone is in agreement except the 2 of "You" as you are here for something completely different = vengance

 

At least that is what it looks like to me smile.gif

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

GoldfishBowl.gif

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"I'm not aware of any guidelines that govern our sport." (Inter 20)

 

I think our sport's guideline is self enforcement. If you feel that a rule is broken, withdraw, or file a protest, don't call it out on a popular forum.

Really ... what's the point of an internet forum like this if we can't discuss the problems?

 

It would have been an interesting protest to file. Unless you get get a witness from the crew of a boat that looked at the tracker to admit that, you couldn't provide enough evidence to bother with a protest.

 

And, for the most part, nobody in this thread has really drawn down on any particular boat. KK brought the attention on himself.

 

What do you think someone should do if they accessed YB Tracking during the race? Are you saying if they feel that breaking that particular rule was harmless, it's OK to just slide?

 

This really is just a discussion concerning integrity. It is a self enforcing sport, as you point out. And a rule's a rule, no matter how you feel about it.

 

I am saying that the people who broke the rule feel that breaking that rule is harmless. If someone wants to impress upon them that it harms someone, they should make their point. I don't think what I have read in this forum does that.

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"I'm not aware of any guidelines that govern our sport." (Inter 20)

 

I think our sport's guideline is self enforcement. If you feel that a rule is broken, withdraw, or file a protest, don't call it out on a popular forum.

Really ... what's the point of an internet forum like this if we can't discuss the problems?

 

It would have been an interesting protest to file. Unless you get get a witness from the crew of a boat that looked at the tracker to admit that, you couldn't provide enough evidence to bother with a protest.

 

And, for the most part, nobody in this thread has really drawn down on any particular boat. KK brought the attention on himself.

 

What do you think someone should do if they accessed YB Tracking during the race? Are you saying if they feel that breaking that particular rule was harmless, it's OK to just slide?

 

This really is just a discussion concerning integrity. It is a self enforcing sport, as you point out. And a rule's a rule, no matter how you feel about it.

 

I am saying that the people who broke the rule feel that breaking that rule is harmless. If someone wants to impress upon them that it harms someone, they should make their point. I don't think what I have read in this forum does that.

I've got a problem with the 'cheaters' provocation in the title ... it's inflammatory, and this site hardly needs that to explode into nonsense!

 

I also have a problem with 'the people who broke the rule feel that breaking that rule is harmless'. Where does THAT slope end? I was half a leg ahead and barely touched that mark ...

 

Someone said it earlier (I paraphrase): I'd be WAY more impressed with somebody stepping up and doing the right thing than I am by somebody winning the race.

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So, what's the right thing?

 

Making a de facto statement of dis-regard for a rule they consider superfluous? (like the boston tea party)

 

Or, giving up an 'entitled' position to stand up for the status quo? (like rumsfeld: "mistakes were made")

 

I think to cry foul, the point needs to be made that enforcing the rule benefits the group. The racers. That the racers have a say. As far as I can tell the racers have spoken with their silence. No protest, despite evidence. No harm is perceived. No ruling to be made.

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No protest, despite evidence. No harm is perceived. No ruling to be made.

Amen.

Maybe Woody can call the ed to close this thread?

So you believe in freedom of speech as long as you agree with it.

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No protest, despite evidence. No harm is perceived. No ruling to be made.

Amen.

Maybe Woody can call the ed to close this thread?

So you believe in freedom of speech as long as you agree with it.

 

 

 

State your Real name - State your case - Tell us why you didn't properly file a protest

AND send a "Proper Question" to the person who is possibly being slandered (If he didn't view YB underway)

keep us posted wink.gif

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No protest, despite evidence. No harm is perceived. No ruling to be made.

Amen.

Maybe Woody can call the ed to close this thread?

So you believe in freedom of speech as long as you agree with it.

 

 

 

State your Real name - State your case - Tell us why you didn't properly file a protest

AND send a "Proper Question" to the person who is possibly being slandered (If he didn't view YB underway)

keep us posted wink.gif

 

This is relevent. If one does not file a protest when one knows someone has infringed - then that is an infringement.

 

post-1322-091454700 1333241722_thumb.png

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No protest, despite evidence. No harm is perceived. No ruling to be made.

Amen.

Maybe Woody can call the ed to close this thread?

So you believe in freedom of speech as long as you agree with it.

 

 

 

State your Real name - State your case - Tell us why you didn't properly file a protest

AND send a "Proper Question" to the person who is possibly being slandered (If he didn't view YB underway)

keep us posted wink.gif

 

This is relevent. If one does not file a protest when one knows someone has infringed - then that is an infringement.

 

post-1322-091454700 1333241722_thumb.png

 

No

 

Everyone picks and chooses their Favorite Rules to Ignore or Call-Out others for Ignoring

 

Pretty Funny in this case with a finger pointing from each hand dry.gif

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Seems to me that to have filed a protest you'd have needed to have reasonably conclusive evidence within the protest time limit. Sometimes these things come to light after that window's closed.

 

These situations are instructive to tear apart and get different viewpoints on. It's obvious quite a few people feel 'no harm, no foul', other, not so much ... no surprises there, pretty diverse bunch here.

 

Haz

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Question:

 

Concerning an alledeged Violation of the SI's of a Past Race

 

What's the Statute of Intimidations ohmy.giflaugh.giflaugh.gifcool.gif

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

GoldfishBowl.gif

 

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No

 

Everyone picks and chooses their Favorite Rules to Ignore or Call-Out others for Ignoring

 

Pretty Funny in this case with a finger pointing from each hand dry.gif

 

SA is certainly used regularly by people to bad mouth other competitors who have probably beaten them in a race, and accuse them of cheating, but WILL not protest, or have no grounds for protesting. Best done anonymously. That way you don't have to produce any evidence.

 

 

EDIT...... Cheating could be considered a gross breach of sportsmanship, therefore a report from anyone who knows the facts could be lodged with the event jury in accordance with RRS69. There is no time limit on that report like there is on protests.

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No protest, despite evidence. No harm is perceived. No ruling to be made.

Amen.

Maybe Woody can call the ed to close this thread?

So you believe in freedom of speech as long as you agree with it.

 

My bad - thought irony was obvious without an emoticon.

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I don't have a dog in this fight but I do know there is proof of yellowbrick monitoring within the youtube videos from the race...wink wink

 

is it this (at 2 min)?

"..... as it got dark we can only follow the on the tracker ....." Said with a big smile -- The fist smile during the interview. Just me, but from the body language of the gentleman in the interview, I got the impression he knew he was breaking the rules using and electronic tracker to keep himself informed of the fleet's position.

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I don't have a dog in this fight but I do know there is proof of yellowbrick monitoring within the youtube videos from the race...wink wink

 

is it this (at 2 min)?

"..... as it got dark we can only follow the on the tracker ....." Said with a big smile -- The fist smile during the interview. Just me, but from the body language of the gentleman in the interview, I got the impression he knew he was breaking the rules using and electronic tracker to keep himself informed of the fleet's position.

 

No, bending...

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Golf is loaded with "unenforceable rules". You're just expected to play by them. If you don't, you run out of friends and playing partners pretty quickly. Integrity isn't a "slippery slope", it's a cliff.

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I hear all owners received *something post race

 

yet not brought up once

 

 

* hint there are 26 of them in the Queens Language blink.gif

 

Hmmmm

 

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

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WHAT A CROCK OF SHIFE !!

 

Only YellowBrick would have an interest in bringing up this matter (to make its self sound better than it is/was)

 

 

We really didn't have any interest in bringing this up... it's caused us a load of grief, and we're quite busy enough with our jobs to do that sort of thing...!

 

Nick @ YB

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WHAT A CROCK OF SHIFE !!

 

Only YellowBrick would have an interest in bringing up this matter (to make its self sound better than it is/was)

 

 

We really didn't have any interest in bringing this up... it's caused us a load of grief, and we're quite busy enough with our jobs to do that sort of thing...!

 

Nick @ YB

 

Apologies as deserved !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

that's the problem with people hiding behind sock puppets on the grassy knoll of vengance

 

MUCH better for someone to just "MAN-UP" with whatever the issue (if they are a Man as Jenner says they are Not)

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Apologies as deserved !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

 

No worries rolleyes.gif

 

 

 

 

just one more thing - have you posted the nOOb-requisite Tit's Yet ohmy.gifohmy.gifblink.gif

 

And Welcome !!! cool.gif

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I hear all owners received *something post race

 

yet not brought up once

 

 

* hint there are 26 of them in the Queens Language blink.gif

 

Hmmmm

 

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

I am sure they are on the way to Shred-Ex. Kind of like what happens to jury duty notices. If they were sent via email, those Delete buttons certainly took a pounding. As Sargeant Schultz said, "I hear nothing, I see nothing, I know nothing!"

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I hear all owners received *something post race

 

yet not brought up once

 

 

* hint there are 26 of them in the Queens Language blink.gif

 

Hmmmm

 

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

I am sure they are on the way to Shred-Ex. Kind of like what happens to jury duty notices. If they were sent via email, those Delete buttons certainly took a pounding. As Sargeant Schultz said, "I hear nothing, I see nothing, I know nothing!"

 

It's better to remain quiet and thought a fool than to speak thus removing all doubt.

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I'm not a technology genius by any stretch of the imagination but getting over 2000 satellite hits to YB during the race period seems rather suspicious if indeed this is really true. Maybe it was some rich guy finding an expensive way to impress his date by watching the race on his Sat phone. There's the possibility that the VOR guys were bored and decided to follow the PV race. It's the commercial fishermen out at Tanner Banks. Drug smugglers in pangas trying to avoid detection. I know,it was the escort boat,that's it. Problem solved. This finally may be the smoking gun that will initiate the RAFs to materialize. Come on Woodster, what ya got for me now!

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I'm not a technology genius by any stretch of the imagination but getting over 2000 satellite hits to YB during the race period seems rather suspicious if indeed this is really true. Maybe it was some rich guy finding an expensive way to impress his date by watching the race on his Sat phone. There's the possibility that the VOR guys were bored and decided to follow the PV race. It's the commercial fishermen out at Tanner Banks. Drug smugglers in pangas trying to avoid detection. I know,it was the escort boat,that's it. Problem solved. This finally may be the smoking gun that will initiate the RAFs to materialize. Come on Woodster, what ya got for me now!

 

The chance to give your real name rather than "Star of another Puppet Show"

 

or would your Real Name bring less Cred than a sock puppet ?

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Your constant personal attacks on me indicates that you're trying to hide something. It's called the art of misdirection. Is it SDYC's reputation you're protecting? Or some of your sailing buddies? I thought that you would want this mess cleaned up instead of being swept under the rug.

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I'm not a technology genius by any stretch of the imagination but getting over 2000 satellite hits to YB during the race period seems rather suspicious if indeed this is really true. Maybe it was some rich guy finding an expensive way to impress his date by watching the race on his Sat phone. There's the possibility that the VOR guys were bored and decided to follow the PV race. It's the commercial fishermen out at Tanner Banks. Drug smugglers in pangas trying to avoid detection. I know,it was the escort boat,that's it. Problem solved. This finally may be the smoking gun that will initiate the RAFs to materialize. Come on Woodster, what ya got for me now!

 

The chance to give your real name rather than "Star of another Puppet Show"

 

or would your Real Name bring less Cred than a sock puppet ?

 

"Sock Puppet" - that's funny. Also, Dennis, why are you so wrapped up in this thread. You are like a dog with a bone who won't give it up and/or a broken record. Did you bet on a boat in the race and are now afraid you bookie wants his money back?

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Your constant personal attacks on me indicates that you're trying to hide something. It's called the art of misdirection. Is it SDYC's reputation you're protecting? Or some of your sailing buddies? I thought that you would want this mess cleaned up instead of being swept under the rug.

 

HA I'm attacking a nameless sock puppet ohmy.giflaugh.gif

 

 

 

let's put this into perspective

 

you create a sock puppet and think that you then appear to the world as

 

I+rock+the+socks.jpg

 

 

 

when in reality you are known as nothing more than a hiding sorry sock at best

 

1840599409_e83307a564.jpg

 

 

 

and posting things against real people while hiding behind a sock puppet is no better than just sniffing other sock puppets Sock-Arse

 

tumblr_l70lnjR5Gb1qzpwi0o1_500.jpg

 

 

 

Want some respect?

 

Post your Real Name and you shall be given All Due Respect

 

or just ride the angry bus with DoRag who is more defining in his/her anger and at least knows how to long-board a J-105

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I'm not a technology genius by any stretch of the imagination but getting over 2000 satellite hits to YB during the race period seems rather suspicious if indeed this is really true. Maybe it was some rich guy finding an expensive way to impress his date by watching the race on his Sat phone. There's the possibility that the VOR guys were bored and decided to follow the PV race. It's the commercial fishermen out at Tanner Banks. Drug smugglers in pangas trying to avoid detection. I know,it was the escort boat,that's it. Problem solved. This finally may be the smoking gun that will initiate the RAFs to materialize. Come on Woodster, what ya got for me now!

 

The chance to give your real name rather than "Star of another Puppet Show"

 

or would your Real Name bring less Cred than a sock puppet ?

 

"Sock Puppet" - that's funny. Also, Dennis, why are you so wrapped up in this thread. You are like a dog with a bone who won't give it up and/or a broken record. Did you bet on a boat in the race and are now afraid you bookie wants his money back?

 

No

 

I just have a distaste for sock puppets that hide and sling shife at real people

 

If this thread started

 

"I'm __________ and I have proof that _______________ did ___________________ and I think _____________ should be done"

 

it would be much different

 

Yet still not the best way to handle it till all else failed wink.gif

 

My bet was who would come in last and the Check Cleared the Bank just fine laugh.gif

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sign_right_direction_wrong_direction.png

 

 

 

 

 

 

While+on+Reddit.+Stuck+on+Reddit+because+someone+is+wrong_7db740_3459448.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

GoldfishBowl.gif

 

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Enough of the puppet crap. My uncle entertained children with puppets made from scraps at a concentration camp. He never made it out. I know it's cool internet lingo but " Please let it go."

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Enough of the puppet crap. My uncle entertained children with puppets made from scraps at a concentration camp. He never made it out. I know it's cool internet lingo but " Please let it go."

 

so your getting close to ending the disgracing of sock puppets in the respect of your "Uncle" (to whom I gave a Cap "U" yet you did not )

 

Do you belong to the SP-CLU (like the ACLU but for sock puppets???) Ahhhh You are the 99% = Mass - just like like DoRag ?

 

except DoRag knows how to Long-Board a J-105 and to the best of my knowledge has NEVER asked for "sock-puppet respect" ohmy.giflaugh.gifunsure.gif

 

 

 

 

I REALLY could care less if you vindicate yourself or not

 

still, you should only hope others might heap you in with DoRag (at best)

 

(Sorry DoRag just tryin to make a point, no offence to your abusive sock puppet persona intended wink.gif)

 

I'm sure that if you think anything positive about your self you won't be able to tie yourself to this sock puppet in public

 

PLEASE Keep in mind - you have posted as a Troll "Not Yourself"

 

not saying that is any better for you - Jus Sayin dry.gif

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Enough of the puppet crap. My uncle entertained children with puppets made from scraps at a concentration camp. He never made it out. I know it's cool internet lingo but " Please let it go."

 

This thread is so nutso, including the players. I'm so confused. It's a combination of Judge Judy, Dr, Phill, the Muppets, Fox news and Shindler's list meet the sailing world. The Inter joker standing on a doc somewhere getting info from the Mother ship that they are loosing because all the other MFer's are cheating. Inter & Wood mud wrestling and slinging like serious cock fighters as if they were arguing over something real. Time to change the channel. Boring. Maybe Fantasy Island is on.

post-42145-036738100 1333478098_thumb.jpg

 

Where's the fuckn money Lebowski?

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Enough of the puppet crap. My uncle entertained children with puppets made from scraps at a concentration camp. He never made it out. I know it's cool internet lingo but " Please let it go."

 

This thread is so nutso, including the players. I'm so confused. It's a combination of Judge Judy, Dr, Phill, the Muppets, Fox news and Shindler's list meet the sailing world. The Inter joker standing on a doc somewhere getting info from the Mother ship that they are loosing because all the other MFer's are cheating. Inter & Wood mud wrestling and slinging like serious cock fighters as if they were arguing over something real. Time to change the channel. Boring. Maybe Fantasy Island is on.

post-42145-036738100 1333478098_thumb.jpg

 

Where's the fuckn money Lebowski?

Your antiquated cloaking device has sustained a major malfunction. Make a call to the warranty department for a replacement.

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I go work in the fields for a few days, come back, and what happens? Nothing! Anybody drop? No. Why not? Just a bunch of chickens I guess. Not the egg layin' kind either. You know what happens to chickens that don't lay eggs? They get sent to California to become some rich guy's pet. Some even learn to sail and race to PV. So why did the chickens cross the yellowbrick road? Because they thought they wouldn't get caught.

 

it's "Dirty-Sock" Laundry-Day again I see ohmy.giflaugh.giflaugh.giflaugh.gif

 

Don't forget the Spin-Cycle cool.gif

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As a couple of people just won't let this thread go away - a question for someone who was in the race (or might know the answer) - did the tracker show any info from boats such as wind speed, direction, course, boat speed etc?

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Golf is loaded with "unenforceable rules". You're just expected to play by them. If you don't, you run out of friends and playing partners pretty quickly. Integrity isn't a "slippery slope", it's a cliff.

 

This.

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At the risk of a thread hijack, let me describe a hypothetical situation, for everyone to think about how they would react:

 

You've just finished a distance race, and are enjoying the 'after party'. You find yourself at a table of another boat in your class, someone you've just raced against, but are now sharing some camradarie. The subject of rules comes up, and you say "sure was frustrating, not being able to log on and find everyone's position", and the whole table goes quiet. The crew gives each other nervous glances, some suddenly decide their shoes need retying, but the captain smiles, laughs and belts out 'YEA, wasn't that a pain!"

 

What do you do? What can you do?

 

- Call them on it, and make them answer a direct question, watching for signs of a lie?

- Hurl an insult (and your drink) at them and leave?

- slink off and 'prank' (sink?) their boat?

- Start a formal protest with the RC?

- Decide that if the rules don't apply to them, then they don't apply to you either?

- Campaign to get the rules changed for the next time?

- Go whine on an internet forum?

- Quit racing and buy a 'sunseeker'; go slowly and drink heavily?

 

 

Me, I've left racing programs that were too full of just those sorts of azzholes. Integrity is more important to me than winning.

 

 

 

Disclaimer: I live in SD, and have met Woody on occasion - he's not as crazy as many of you would think. Other than that, I don't know anything about this race other than what's in this very thread. I really did make up the scenario, but wouldn't be surprised if this whole thing started like that.

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At the risk of a thread hijack, let me describe a hypothetical situation, for everyone to think about how they would react:

 

You've just finished a distance race, and are enjoying the 'after party'. You find yourself at a table of another boat in your class, someone you've just raced against, but are now sharing some camradarie. The subject of rules comes up, and you say "sure was frustrating, not being able to log on and find everyone's position", and the whole table goes quiet. The crew gives each other nervous glances, some suddenly decide their shoes need retying, but the captain smiles, laughs and belts out 'YEA, wasn't that a pain!"

 

What do you do? What can you do?

 

- Call them on it, and make them answer a direct question, watching for signs of a lie?

- Hurl an insult (and your drink) at them and leave?

- slink off and 'prank' (sink?) their boat?

- Start a formal protest with the RC?

- Decide that if the rules don't apply to them, then they don't apply to you either?

- Campaign to get the rules changed for the next time?

- Go whine on an internet forum?

- Quit racing and buy a 'sunseeker'; go slowly and drink heavily?

 

 

Me, I've left racing programs that were too full of just those sorts of azzholes. Integrity is more important to me than winning.

 

 

 

Disclaimer: I live in SD, and have met Woody on occasion - he's not as crazy as many of you would think. Other than that, I don't know anything about this race other than what's in this very thread. I really did make up the scenario, but wouldn't be surprised if this whole thing started like that.

 

It might seam crazy ohmy.gif But in that situation,

 

I would "Just Ask the Captain" whatever question it was that I was wondering

 

It would be the perfect time and place to get the issue resolved

 

How many times does one need to tap-dance around the same subject before they feel like they won something

 

Obviously they didn't Win the PV race cool.gif

 

as the entertainment value of this thread had a 1/2 life of 4 posts

 

and given the fact that it's swirling the loo once again I thought some mood music would be nice:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LA2k2594B1c

 

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. *Is there a time limit on RAFs?

Epilog... I'm getting my stopwatch ready. I am going to measure the time from when I hit ADD REPLY to when some San Diego dude shoots me down. Here goes...

 

*YES - You can not RAF until you have finished

 

So I guess that would mean a bunch of sock puppets shall never be able to RAF from beating this dead horse ohmy.giflaugh.giflaugh.giflaugh.gifrolleyes.gif

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Just got a text from a sailing bud in Newport Beach and he said that one of the PV class winners has submitted a RAF to SDYC. Could this be true? He wouldn't name the boat even after I pressed him. Maybe he's full of bullbutter. Is there a time limit on RAFs? Does the race sponsor have to accept RAFs? Looks like the chickens have finally come home to roost after having crossed the yellowbrick road.

 

Epilog... I'm getting my stopwatch ready. I am going to measure the time from when I hit ADD REPLY to when some San Diego dude shoots me down. Here goes...

A sundial might have been a better choice than a stopwatch. Being a supposed puppet makes me wonder why I haven't heard about this rumor. Some on this thread think I have more strings attached to me than a guitar factory. That is not true. I started this thread with the idea of exposing a potential problem in our sport but it seems to me that you're now just making stuff up. Looking at some of your past posts, it appears you don't like DoRag and Jesposito very much. I'll give you a pass, for now. Most Anarchists will agree that they are annoying at best. If you really know more, break with it. I'll add a picture since you don't seem to know how.

post-1988-087716700 1334181555_thumb.jpg

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I will wait for jesposito and D Rag to clear this whole mess up. Giving the spring thaw coming, soon they should be out of their waders and onto more seasonal activities.

Bolt action or auto, not sure which

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Life is full of rules. Most make sense and a few obviously do not. Just because a rule may make no sense in someone's view, shouldn't justify them to break it and then get away with it. It becomes a slippery slope. What is the next rule to be ignored? "I'll run the engine if boatspeed drops below 6 knots when nobody can see or hear us." "This sail is just a little bigger, it's not that big of a deal." "Those lead bricks? How did they get there?" "The prop was there when we left the dock." "We touched the mark, we really didn't hit it." Does this selective morality sound familiar?

 

Repeat Offender..really don't go there. We know you are the real life sock puppet for someone with the moral antennae of the average Artic musk ox, prone to flipping people off on the race course, offensive confrontations, and excessive use of the N Word. Talk about selective morality. She takes the cake. Blaming others because she lost a yacht race. UGH. Typical but uncalled for..

 

Wow, Janer. What a pompous windbag asshole you are. Your post had no intellectual point; just a chance for you to spew vitriolic personal insults.

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Is there a time limit on RAFs? Does the race sponsor have to accept RAFs?

 

Race sponsor has nothing to do with RRS, it's not their business, even if they think that it is.

As to the time limit on RAF, search SA for Monica Wilson / Nancy Rios, in that case 5 months were OK.

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Just got a text from a sailing bud in Newport Beach and he said that one of the PV class winners has submitted a RAF to SDYC. Could this be true? He wouldn't name the boat even after I pressed him. Maybe he's full of bullbutter. Is there a time limit on RAFs? Does the race sponsor have to accept RAFs? Looks like the chickens have finally come home to roost after having crossed the yellowbrick road.

 

Epilog... I'm getting my stopwatch ready. I am going to measure the time from when I hit ADD REPLY to when some San Diego dude shoots me down. Here goes...

I don't think there is a time limit on RAfs. From a practical standpoint there might very well be, but suppose you found out the prior owner added a shoe to the keel when you haul it 2 years later? You might very well notify & RAF to avoid allegations of cheating.

 

I could be way off here but a RAF should be a badge of honor, not an exemplar of dishonesty.

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