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      A Few Simple Rules   05/22/2017

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Seascape 27

823 posts in this topic

Thought The boat warranted its own thread http://www.biehlmarin.com/mediapool/3/35906/data/Seascape_27/2x-stage2_ver6.pdf

Seems to tick a lot of the boxes i am interested in. I would consider the elan 210, but it seems a bit small for what i want.

Looking for a boat thatI can trailer ( which practically speaking means less than 2500kg including trailer)I can go away with the family (in a camping stylee) for a weekThat i can race round the cans three up Can do short 150mile plus coastal racesIs quick, fun, modern. Od racing in europe a bonus, sensible irc handicap a nice to have but not essential

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Pogo 30 is very much the same type of concept. Swing keel, light displacement sport boat with simple cabin accomidations and probably trailerable given the 10.5 pogo is trailerable with permits etc.

 

I find the combo of using the new large cockpit Asymmetric sport boat hulls with a swing keel concept pretty refreshing given this opens up a whole new range of sailing for a performance type boat with a deep keel. Swing the keel and you can tuck into shallow estuaries and marinas with zero issues and in the case of a hull narrow enough to trailer easy trailering without running into height restrictions etc.

 

http://www.pogostructures.com/en/cruising-sailboats/pogo-30-in-development/

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Uh huh uh huh uh huh

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I think this boat looks quite nice. May not appeal to the floating caravan group and that is fine. Not sure why there was all the hate on the other thread.

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I think this boat looks quite nice. May not appeal to the floating caravan group and that is fine. Not sure why there was all the hate on the other thread.

According to my CEO, hate makes the world go round. From what I've seen it certainly makes these forums move.

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When you release a new product, it attracts a certain degree of skepticism if your photographs are extensively photoshopped.

here is one of the photographs extensively photoshopped

 

post-14539-046115600 1333186857_thumb.jpg

 

How do you think you can sell a product, with photos like that where you cut and paste people into and out of your photograph...

 

Its not hate you are seeing here. Its skepticism in the face of dishonesty, because such crude photoshopping to conceal, doesnt engender faith in your cnc cutting accuracy or honesty. Sorry if you misinterpret that as hate already. Not a good reasonable, honest or careful beginning guys...

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The overall package looks good, except the swinging keel. The mechanism controlling the swing is going to have to be incredibly robust. Imagine running aground while running downwind under assymetrical spinnaker and praying that the hydraulic ram, or worm drive winch doesnt blow up.. And you will need to pin it in the down position so it doesnt slam back and forward when punching into a seaway. You run aground with the locking pin in place, the locking pin bends so it cant be retrieved, and you are in trouble. Smaller trailable yachts absorb grounding impacts by submerging their bow. This length boat just suffers major damage and the keel head area needs to be massively engineered. If the keel lifts for shallow water operation, the rudder blades need to also. Ramp launching a 27 footer that sits so high above the trailer, is going to be very hard, even with a trailer drawbar extension. Ive seen big trailable yachts with keels like these on trailers where their wheels drop off the end of launching ramps, with the hulls still not in the water. The keel design is bad. It needs to be a drop keel that retracts into a case that enables the boat to sit flat on a beach. Think about the average height of a domestic carport. It helps if it can fit under that when on the trailer. Its annoying to get your crutch wet walking out to your boat which has to be anchored so much further out than all the other boats, when the campfire is over and you are heading off to bed. In the Goolwa to Meningie race, where the weather deteriorated and everybody wanted to retrieve at the end of the race, rather than sail back, there was a First 21 with a keel like this. They had to take the trailer out into the lake with a huge farmers tractor to retrieve it, because the ramp was not steep enough to get the boat onto the trailer. At Sale, in the Marlay Point overnighter, they cancelled the race because gale force winds blew the wind out of the lake, exposing the ramp end at Sale, which sits at the upwind end of the lake. With a design like this, youd have no choice but sail the course to get to Paynesville to a ramp that you could use, or anchor far out in the lake in horrific conditions while everyone else with fully retractable keels could nestle amongst the reeds... trailable yachts of this size, with protruding keels like this, are frankly a laughingstock. I know its difficult for keelboat guys to understand this, but powerboaters gun their motors and drive their boats onto their trailers. When they do that, they blow all the sand away from the end of the concrete ramp underwater. Thats why you see signs asking them not to do it, but they ignore them. Keel boats like this are prone to having their trailer wheels drop off the end of the concrete ramp, into that hole, so now the trailer bed sits flat on the concrete ramp, with the boat still out of the water. And as the wheel rolls over the edge, its taking the rig another 2 feet into the water whether you would like it or not. Suddenly your exhaust pipe and trailer electrical coupling are now underwater. What do you do then ??? Get a dozen blokes with levers to try and lift the trailer and boat back up onto the ramp again ? Or hook up another 4wd to try and tow your rig out of the water ? And even if the boat floats off as a result of the trailer dropping so far, and then you manage to lift the trailer up so the wheels are back on the ramp, how in the hell do you plan to retrieve the boat ??? Scrap the protruding keel, its a disaster because most ramps arent long enough underwater to accommodate boats that sit so high on a trailer. The external keel also requires the hull to be rotated to fit into a container.?? What condition will the battery and cabin contents and glossy side of the hull be in after a thousand miles of having to rest on its side on a trailer pad ??? Love the mini, love keel boats, but there is a serious lack of maxi trailable yacht practical expertize in the design of this trailable yacht.

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The overall package looks good, except the swinging keel. The mechanism controlling the swing is going to have to be incredibly robust. Imagine running aground while running downwind under assymetrical spinnaker and praying that the hydraulic ram, or worm drive winch doesnt blow up.. And you will need to pin it in the down position so it doesnt slam back and forward when punching into a seaway. You run aground with the locking pin in place, the locking pin bends so it cant be retrieved, and you are in trouble. Smaller trailable yachts absorb grounding impacts by submerging their bow. This length boat just suffers major damage and the keel head area needs to be massively engineered. If the keel lifts for shallow water operation, the rudder blades need to also.

 

I dunno... Pogo structures seem to have managed fine with it...

 

Pogo 30 (only concept right now)

Pogo 10,50 (built)

Pogo 12,50 (built)

and now the Pogo 50 (under development)

 

I'n not completely sure on this but I think the keel on the Seascape 27 could be rope and pulley to lift it up meaning that if you hit ground it wont be pushing against a ram to swing up.

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The overall package looks good, except the swinging keel. The mechanism controlling the swing is going to have to be incredibly robust. Imagine running aground while running downwind under assymetrical spinnaker and praying that the hydraulic ram, or worm drive winch doesnt blow up.. And you will need to pin it in the down position so it doesnt slam back and forward when punching into a seaway. You run aground with the locking pin in place, the locking pin bends so it cant be retrieved, and you are in trouble. Smaller trailable yachts absorb grounding impacts by submerging their bow. This length boat just suffers major damage and the keel head area needs to be massively engineered. If the keel lifts for shallow water operation, the rudder blades need to also.

 

I dunno... Pogo structures seem to have managed fine with it...

 

Pogo 30 (only concept right now)

Pogo 10,50 (built)

Pogo 12,50 (built)

and now the Pogo 50 (under development)

 

I'n not completely sure on this but I think the keel on the Seascape 27 could be rope and pulley to lift it up meaning that if you hit ground it wont be pushing against a ram to swing up.

 

This boat isnt like a 3.9 metre beam "sometimes trailable with special permit and always launch in protected conditions with the club crane type of boat." Its designed to be a street legal towable with the family 4wd, with a maximum beam of 2.54m and usable at most boat ramps. No doubt there are some premium boatramps in the world that can accommodate it with extendable trailer drawbar when the tide is right, but there are serious disadvantages in thinking that trailable yachts this big dont exert huge forces. For example, I saw a duncanson 25 that was trying to be launched at Snowdens Beach once. The trailer bogged quickly, so he uncoupled, approached the trailer from an angle, with a long rope, gunned the 4wd, and promptly ripped all 4 boat trailer tyres off their rims... They were well and truly bogged. When you design a trailable yacht this size, you need to talk to guys who have built, owned, cruised and raced them in all conditions, including shallow water. Theres enough of us around, and if you want to sell us one, you need to be able to answer the tough questions...

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When you release a new product, it attracts a certain degree of skepticism if your photographs are extensively photoshopped.

here is one of the photographs extensively photoshopped

 

post-14539-046115600 1333186857_thumb.jpg

 

How do you think you can sell a product, with photos like that where you cut and paste people into and out of your photograph...

 

Its not hate you are seeing here. Its skepticism in the face of dishonesty, because such crude photoshopping to conceal, doesnt engender faith in your cnc cutting accuracy or honesty. Sorry if you misinterpret that as hate already. Not a good reasonable, honest or careful beginning guys...

 

Your comments were not the ones I meant, although it does seem like you are pretty fired up about this boat.

 

Agreed the bad photoshop pic is pretty strange, I do wonder if it was a stitched together pic and the people moved between frames. That might be too simple of an explanation for the tin foil hat brigade though.

 

Pogo/Structures uses a pressure relief valve on a hydraulic ram that allows the keel to move when it hits something. Is pretty simple technology. And the published number of 85cm of draft with the keel up doesn't seem like much. Guessing the J70 almost has that.

 

As I said, this won't be a boat for everyone but does look like a potentially nice boat fitting into an open niche in the market.

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When you release a new product, it attracts a certain degree of skepticism if your photographs are extensively photoshopped.

here is one of the photographs extensively photoshopped

 

post-14539-046115600 1333186857_thumb.jpg

 

How do you think you can sell a product, with photos like that where you cut and paste people into and out of your photograph...

 

Its not hate you are seeing here. Its skepticism in the face of dishonesty, because such crude photoshopping to conceal, doesnt engender faith in your cnc cutting accuracy or honesty. Sorry if you misinterpret that as hate already. Not a good reasonable, honest or careful beginning guys...

Not sure if I would call that "extensive" photoshopping. It doesn't really seem like much time was taken at all.

 

Yes, I know that my faith in accuracy of CNC cutting, like yours, depends keenly on accuracy of photoshopping. We think much alike, you and I (Balok to Kirk, some Star Trek episode.)

 

It must have been painful, being so deceived by that picture! Do you think you can sue for damages? There's this fellow Kithcart who knows a lawyer who will take just about any case: give him a ring!

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The overall package looks good, except the swinging keel. The mechanism controlling the swing is going to have to be incredibly robust. Imagine running aground while running downwind under assymetrical spinnaker and praying that the hydraulic ram, or worm drive winch doesnt blow up.. And you will need to pin it in the down position so it doesnt slam back and forward when punching into a seaway. You run aground with the locking pin in place, the locking pin bends so it cant be retrieved, and you are in trouble. Smaller trailable yachts absorb grounding impacts by submerging their bow. This length boat just suffers major damage and the keel head area needs to be massively engineered. If the keel lifts for shallow water operation, the rudder blades need to also.

 

I dunno... Pogo structures seem to have managed fine with it...

 

Pogo 30 (only concept right now)

Pogo 10,50 (built)

Pogo 12,50 (built)

and now the Pogo 50 (under development)

 

I'n not completely sure on this but I think the keel on the Seascape 27 could be rope and pulley to lift it up meaning that if you hit ground it wont be pushing against a ram to swing up.

 

This boat isnt like a 3.9 metre beam "sometimes trailable with special permit and always launch in protected conditions with the club crane type of boat." Its designed to be a street legal towable with the family 4wd, with a maximum beam of 2.54m and usable at most boat ramps. No doubt there are some premium boatramps in the world that can accommodate it with extendable trailer drawbar when the tide is right, but there are serious disadvantages in thinking that trailable yachts this big dont exert huge forces. For example, I saw a duncanson 25 that was trying to be launched at Snowdens Beach once. The trailer bogged quickly, so he uncoupled, approached the trailer from an angle, with a long rope, gunned the 4wd, and promptly ripped all 4 boat trailer tyres off their rims... They were well and truly bogged. When you design a trailable yacht this size, you need to talk to guys who have built, owned, cruised and raced them in all conditions, including shallow water. Theres enough of us around, and if you want to sell us one, you need to be able to answer the tough questions...

 

I wasn't commenting on the practicality of it, if you read my post again you will notice that I was talking about the mechanism to lift the keel. You seemed very against this type of keel on this type of boat and I was merely saying that 50fters use it so it must work pretty bloody well.

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Empty 1150 kg. Ballast 550 kg. That leaves 600 kg for everything else,

 

I wonder how they plan to do it ???

 

 

That very near GP26 weights.

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Empty 1150 kg. Ballast 550 kg. That leaves 600 kg for everything else,

 

I wonder how they plan to do it ???

 

 

That very near GP26 weights.

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Le Mach 30 a collaboration between verdier and jps productions is my favorite ride but have to go to france OK when do i go ????!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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There are literally thousands of swing keel boats out there. Most use some kind of cable and winch set up and most, if not all, have some kind of shear pin to hold the keel down. The shear pin simply has to be strong enough to prevent the keel from swinging back into the boat during a broach but is of a material that pretty easily shears or cut through when the boat grounds. If you have an issue with bent shear pins, all one has to do is crank the keel up and shear than pin to get it out. Pretty simple and basic really. Just ask the thousands who deal with them daily.

 

Ramps are always an issue. Most are never maintained well enough and at least in the US, most are geared towards small power boats so they are seldom laid out to work well for sailboats. Years ago, we used to launch boats off the embankment beside the ramp as it worked better than the ramp itself. When you travel with a trailerable boat of this size, you do need to plan well.

 

This boat looks good and will hopefully fill a need to enough buyers that they are successful.

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The overall package looks good, except the swinging keel. The mechanism controlling the swing is going to have to be incredibly robust. Imagine running aground while running downwind under assymetrical spinnaker and praying that the hydraulic ram, or worm drive winch doesnt blow up.. And you will need to pin it in the down position so it doesnt slam back and forward when punching into a seaway. You run aground with the locking pin in place, the locking pin bends so it cant be retrieved, and you are in trouble. Smaller trailable yachts absorb grounding impacts by submerging their bow. This length boat just suffers major damage and the keel head area needs to be massively engineered. If the keel lifts for shallow water operation, the rudder blades need to also.

 

I dunno... Pogo structures seem to have managed fine with it...

 

Pogo 30 (only concept right now)

Pogo 10,50 (built)

Pogo 12,50 (built)

and now the Pogo 50 (under development)

 

I'n not completely sure on this but I think the keel on the Seascape 27 could be rope and pulley to lift it up meaning that if you hit ground it wont be pushing against a ram to swing up.

 

This boat isnt like a 3.9 metre beam "sometimes trailable with special permit and always launch in protected conditions with the club crane type of boat." Its designed to be a street legal towable with the family 4wd, with a maximum beam of 2.54m and usable at most boat ramps. No doubt there are some premium boatramps in the world that can accommodate it with extendable trailer drawbar when the tide is right, but there are serious disadvantages in thinking that trailable yachts this big dont exert huge forces. For example, I saw a duncanson 25 that was trying to be launched at Snowdens Beach once. The trailer bogged quickly, so he uncoupled, approached the trailer from an angle, with a long rope, gunned the 4wd, and promptly ripped all 4 boat trailer tyres off their rims... They were well and truly bogged. When you design a trailable yacht this size, you need to talk to guys who have built, owned, cruised and raced them in all conditions, including shallow water. Theres enough of us around, and if you want to sell us one, you need to be able to answer the tough questions...

 

Launching a 2.5 tonnes (Duncanson 25) on a soft mud beach (not ramp) ie Snowdens is just bloody daft. The bloke deserves to have that fuck up. There is plenty of room for a swing keel boat like this, biggest issue would be having enough ballast in the keel to keep it powerful enough to sail how it looks otherwise it will be seen as a dog

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There are literally thousands of swing keel boats out there. Most use some kind of cable and winch set up and most, if not all, have some kind of shear pin to hold the keel down.... Pretty simple and basic really. Just ask the thousands who deal with them daily.

 

I'm dubious of a swing keel on a performance boat. Yeah there are tens of thousands out there, but 'asking the thousands who deal with them daily' is a better counterpoint considering that most owners of these boats (the older Catalina 22s and Ventures 21s, V24s etc etc) have said "screw that" and taken up a different hobby while leaving the boat parked forever in the back yard.

 

Alway check the tally from those who vote with their feet. They are always silent and sometimes a majority.

B)

 

 

Ramps are always an issue. Most are never maintained well enough and at least in the US, most are geared towards small power boats so they are seldom laid out to work well for sailboats. Years ago, we used to launch boats off the embankment beside the ramp as it worked better than the ramp itself. When you travel with a trailerable boat of this size, you do need to plan well.

 

This boat looks good and will hopefully fill a need to enough buyers that they are successful.

 

Agreed... actually I agree on both points but I just can't help being skeptical with the swing keel... the French have specialzed in this and they are great under some circumstances but they give up some righting moment (ie performance) and I don't see the advantages... and they don't hold up well in service. Maybe they are designed to be replaced every so often, like centerboard cables & sheaves?

 

Very interested and following the news, thanks you all!

 

FB- Doug

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I'm amazed about your attention to details. The photo from the CnC is actually stitched with Photoshops automated algorithm since the place is to small to show what's going on with 28mm lens. Guys on the left became collateral damage.

Boat is otherwise coming together. Hull and deck are demoulded and structure is getting in. We are so far keeping to our target weight - it does require some amount of UDs and almost race grade scantlings. Having Sam Manuard on board for that and our experience from Mini Prototypes help as well.

Keel - as someone said - works well for Pogos, so no reason it will not here. It is hydraulic operated so it is quite easy to add safety valve that releases the pressure in case of grounding.

Mast is Southern, about 1kg/m with 2 spreaders@28deg.

And since the boat is a crossover between a sportboat, offshore racer an a cruiser, swing keel is part of the equation necessary to make her work in the last role. Keep in mind that keel still has almost 400kg lead @-150cm VCG. And with no bulb she gets considerable lift (no drag).

Prototype should start sea trials in less then a month and if all goes well production should start in about 4 months.

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I'm amazed about your attention to details. The photo from the CnC is actually stitched with Photoshops automated algorithm since the place is to small to show what's going on with 28mm lens. Guys on the left became collateral damage.

 

That's what I was thinking all along. Hoped someone would chime in from the company. lots of photo stitch applications end up doing this. It actually makes for some pretty interesting photos...

 

Check out Photosynth app for mobile phone cameras put out by microsoft. These programs make perspective a lot easier to achieve for large objects like boats...

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I'm amazed about your attention to details. The photo from the CnC is actually stitched with Photoshops automated algorithm since the place is to small to show what's going on with 28mm lens. Guys on the left became collateral damage.

Boat is otherwise coming together. Hull and deck are demoulded and structure is getting in. We are so far keeping to our target weight - it does require some amount of UDs and almost race grade scantlings. Having Sam Manuard on board for that and our experience from Mini Prototypes help as well.

Keel - as someone said - works well for Pogos, so no reason it will not here. It is hydraulic operated so it is quite easy to add safety valve that releases the pressure in case of grounding.

Mast is Southern, about 1kg/m with 2 spreaders@28deg.

And since the boat is a crossover between a sportboat, offshore racer an a cruiser, swing keel is part of the equation necessary to make her work in the last role. Keep in mind that keel still has almost 400kg lead @-150cm VCG. And with no bulb she gets considerable lift (no drag).

Prototype should start sea trials in less then a month and if all goes well production should start in about 4 months.

 

So I was right about the mold pic, what are the conspiracy folks going to talk about now?

 

Andraz, please keep posting pics as they come available. Looks like a great boat.

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1334257232[/url]' post='3669992']

I'm amazed about your attention to details. The photo from the CnC is actually stitched with Photoshops automated algorithm since the place is to small to show what's going on with 28mm lens. Guys on the left became collateral damage.

Boat is otherwise coming together. Hull and deck are demoulded and structure is getting in. We are so far keeping to our target weight - it does require some amount of UDs and almost race grade scantlings. Having Sam Manuard on board for that and our experience from Mini Prototypes help as well.

Keel - as someone said - works well for Pogos, so no reason it will not here. It is hydraulic operated so it is quite easy to add safety valve that releases the pressure in case of grounding.

Mast is Southern, about 1kg/m with 2 spreaders@28deg.

And since the boat is a crossover between a sportboat, offshore racer an a cruiser, swing keel is part of the equation necessary to make her work in the last role. Keep in mind that keel still has almost 400kg lead @-150cm VCG. And with no bulb she gets considerable lift (no drag).

Prototype should start sea trials in less then a month and if all goes well production should start in about 4 months.

 

Good luck with the boat. Will be interested to see how it develops. Definately ticks a lot of boxes for me. Hopefully in a year or two i will go for a test sail with money in my pocket.

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When you release a new product, it attracts a certain degree of skepticism if your photographs are extensively photoshopped.

here is one of the photographs extensively photoshopped

 

post-14539-046115600 1333186857_thumb.jpg

 

How do you think you can sell a product, with photos like that where you cut and paste people into and out of your photograph...

 

Its not hate you are seeing here. Its skepticism in the face of dishonesty, because such crude photoshopping to conceal, doesnt engender faith in your cnc cutting accuracy or honesty. Sorry if you misinterpret that as hate already. Not a good reasonable, honest or careful beginning guys...

 

Your comments were not the ones I meant, although it does seem like you are pretty fired up about this boat.

 

Agreed the bad photoshop pic is pretty strange, I do wonder if it was a stitched together pic and the people moved between frames. That might be too simple of an explanation for the tin foil hat brigade though.

 

Pogo/Structures uses a pressure relief valve on a hydraulic ram that allows the keel to move when it hits something. Is pretty simple technology. And the published number of 85cm of draft with the keel up doesn't seem like much. Guessing the J70 almost has that.

 

As I said, this won't be a boat for everyone but does look like a potentially nice boat fitting into an open niche in the market.

 

Not to mention that all the new lighter built boats fixed keel, vertical lifting do not fair very well at all if they get grounded hard at speed. Simply not a whole lot of heavy structure built into them to absorb the impact or withstand the impact. With the vertical lifting keels you get extensive damage to the top of the keel box where the keel is locked into place and can see damage at the trailing edge and back side of the keel box down low at the hull. Fixed keel its pretty easy to figure damage is hard to see and failures later are known to happen.

 

Of all the choices a swing keel with a relief mechanism is far superior heck that even applies to dinghy sailing.

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How will the swing keel work on a crane hoist for launching? I am used to boats like a melges 24 were the keel is attached to the lifting bridle when launching the boat.

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This is in fact dead simple since hydraulic is holding the keel in any given position. Lift point is off course positioned in the keel-up balance.

 

This photo is from last week - structure going in Monday, deck on Friday (if you have all of the components milled, assembly is almost fun :)

Metal tapes on the bulkhead are for the magnetic panel doors (not entirely dissimilar to Ipad cover)

 

post-31226-069902700 1334349755_thumb.jpg

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There are literally thousands of swing keel boats out there. Most use some kind of cable and winch set up and most, if not all, have some kind of shear pin to hold the keel down.... Pretty simple and basic really. Just ask the thousands who deal with them daily.

 

I'm dubious of a swing keel on a performance boat. Yeah there are tens of thousands out there, but 'asking the thousands who deal with them daily' is a better counterpoint considering that most owners of these boats (the older Catalina 22s and Ventures 21s, V24s etc etc) have said "screw that" and taken up a different hobby while leaving the boat parked forever in the back yard.

 

Alway check the tally from those who vote with their feet. They are always silent and sometimes a majority.

B)

 

 

Ramps are always an issue. Most are never maintained well enough and at least in the US, most are geared towards small power boats so they are seldom laid out to work well for sailboats. Years ago, we used to launch boats off the embankment beside the ramp as it worked better than the ramp itself. When you travel with a trailerable boat of this size, you do need to plan well.

 

This boat looks good and will hopefully fill a need to enough buyers that they are successful.

 

Agreed... actually I agree on both points but I just can't help being skeptical with the swing keel... the French have specialzed in this and they are great under some circumstances but they give up some righting moment (ie performance) and I don't see the advantages... and they don't hold up well in service. Maybe they are designed to be replaced every so often, like centerboard cables & sheaves?

 

Very interested and following the news, thanks you all!

 

FB- Doug

 

 

Pogo offers this type of swinging keel on the Pogo 12.50, which is the new cruising version of their Class 40.

 

I think it's safe to say that Pogo know a thing or two about performance boats...

 

They are also offering the swinging keel on the new 50ft version of the boat.

 

It's not clear that there is any loss in righting moment, as on the 12.50, the draft of their standard fixed keel is 2.2m, while the draft of the swinging keel is 1.2m up, and 3.0m down.

 

If you can't see any advantage to a 41ft cruising boat with a 1.2m draft, you either haven't done much cruising, or you live somewhere with really deep water...

 

 

image.jpg

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The RM curves for the Pogo 12.50 both keel up and keel down.

 

post-15809-068198700 1334366871_thumb.jpg

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Prototype should start sea trials in less then a month and if all goes well production should start in about 4 months.

 

Cool. Keep us updated.

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1335862255[/url]' post='3694412']

Latest from the yard...

 

Cool, keep us updated. Whats the outside looking like?

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I like it! Will be watching this boat as it progresses.

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Any updates and more photos Andraz? Very keen to see how she is shaping up :)

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Any updates and more photos Andraz? Very keen to see how she is shaping up :)

 

+1

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I have done the search but have not found the expected price. Great looking boat and with the Seascape people doing it it looks to be the real thing. Is it going to be available in the U.S.? How much for one delivered to the west coast?

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1338259554[/url]' post='3730245']

I have done the search but have not found the expected price. Great looking boat and with the Seascape people doing it it looks to be the real thing. Is it going to be available in the U.S.? How much for one delivered to the west coast?

 

You'll find on google.de a preliminary Price of 40'000 - 45'000 Euro (w/o sails) or about 60'000 delivered and ready to go. Perhaps Andraz can confirm, that this s still correct.

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Reminds me of the first boat i sailed, except that had less head room. You had to open the hatch to sit down and have a dump, facing aft you carried on the conversation with the helm, who was only about 10ft away...

 

 

 

060812_pisser.jpg

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The Seascape is far better looking, but I can't help thinking that Bieker's Shilshole 27 is going to beat the pants off this boat in both performance and cruising comfort.

 

Looks cool though, and kudos on making a more unique keel configuration work.

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The Seascape is far better looking, but I can't help thinking that Bieker's Shilshole 27 is going to beat the pants off this boat in both performance and cruising comfort.

 

Looks cool though, and kudos on making a more unique keel configuration work.

 

 

the seascape appears to have a bigger sailplan, and the hull is undoubtedly a much more powerful shape, when compared with the shilshole.

 

the shilshole may have a slight edge in light breeze, because of reduced surface area, but in most windy conditions, i would put my money on the seascape.

 

i agree that the seascape is better looking.

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Very nice looking boat, indeed. Light wind performance seems to be o.k. from what could be seen on the video (3-5 kts of wind). Very clean water runoff at the stern. Looking forward to more info about performance (and price :-)).

So far I'm quite impressed.

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looking good, just shown the video to the wife, she seems interested :-)

now all i need is the cash :-(

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Great little teaser vid on the first day of trials. As some others have mentioned, the boat "checks off a lot of boxes" for me as well. One big thing for me though would be a roller furler for the jib. I did not see it looking at the vid. This would be a big miss if there is none! Also the thought of a dousing system for the chute so no one has to go in front of the mast. Thoughts anyone, Andraz?

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it is true, at the moment there is no jib furler. We were following the line of thought that it is better for performance to keep the big (and therefore) heavy jib on deck when it blows the tits off, since stability is something that you never have enough. With this you effectively lower the vertical CoG when the sail is not in use. Initial tests show that with crew you can sail fully powered up to 18-20kts, then you need to change jib for a inner staysail. This one is on furler and closer to the mast in order to keep proper ballance of the boat.

However, for those more concerned about the ease of handling than performance, it is possible to use furlers; Facnor's STG-3 continuous line furler would be a nice add-on.

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Congrats to all at Seascape !I would like to know when and where it would be possible to see the boat in personThanks & fair windsLukas

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Hi all!

 

I don't know but did you see this vid

? Very nice performance! Definitely a boat to think about!

 

 

Rumors are saying that it will not be finished thisyear due to some open interior issues and sales with all the options is starting not this year. But for a boat like thisI could wait. I really like the hidden engine J.

 

 

Bonky

 

 

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Its been quiet Andraz and team...give us some more.....lol. I hope all is going well.

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Any idea of what sort of wind speeds they had for that last video to reach 14knts of boat speed??

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i like it

Clean, modern, fast and chick friendly

Certainly more versatile than most sport boats and probably not much slower.

At least it looks like you can do some long distance races unlike most sportier boats

Wouldnt want to do a 300 miler on a Viper or even a J80 ( not comparing the two but they are both about the same length and have a sprit)

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I agree. I think the boat looks sexy. Different strokes for different folks I guess

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i like it

Clean, modern, fast and chick friendly

Certainly more versatile than most sport boats and probably not much slower.

At least it looks like you can do some long distance races unlike most sportier boats

Wouldnt want to do a 300 miler on a Viper or even a J80 ( not comparing the two but they are both about the same length and have a sprit)

Not sure I'd want to do 300 on this boat either, as nice as it looks.

 

I would probably rather do it on the Viper - at least it will be a fair bit faster..........as long as we are talking about the 830

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When an 830 passed us one slow morning offshore Texas @ 8am on the Harvest Moon, I thought I wouldn't be caught dead offshore on that thing. Of course, they finished in under the 30 hour time limit while the marvelous 8ksb Santana 35 I was on didn't. There's something to be said for maximum speed and minimum accommodations.

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When an 830 passed us one slow morning offshore Texas @ 8am on the Harvest Moon, I thought I wouldn't be caught dead offshore on that thing. Of course, they finished in under the 30 hour time limit while the marvelous 8ksb Santana 35 I was on didn't. There's something to be said for maximum speed and minimum accommodations.

 

Off course they are not ocean boats - but they are tougher than you think. Guess you must have encountered the Rented Mule?

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I agree with the minimum accomadations and max speed

How much faster the Viper would be is the question

Especially if 250 of the 300 miles ends up being upwind in in more than 15 knots

I really like the 830 and thjnk it's very cool but for double handed racing I think the SEascape 27 has some sold qualities

I have done quite a few distance races on 30 footers so 27 wouldn't e a big difference and definitely faster

(unless I had a Mumm 30;)

 

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Any idea of what sort of wind speeds they had for that last video to reach 14knts of boat speed??

 

If I'm reading the multi-display correctly, it looks like 22knots TWS

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I agree with the minimum accomadations and max speed

How much faster the Viper would be is the question

Especially if 250 of the 300 miles ends up being upwind in in more than 15 knots

I really like the 830 and thjnk it's very cool but for double handed racing I think the SEascape 27 has some sold qualities

I have done quite a few distance races on 30 footers so 27 wouldn't e a big difference and definitely faster

(unless I had a Mumm 30;)

 

You wouldn't do 250 miles upwind on the V in 15+ unless you are a masochist - or stupid :P

I am not sure that the Seascape would be mucho different in that regards............

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When an 830 passed us one slow morning offshore Texas @ 8am on the Harvest Moon, I thought I wouldn't be caught dead offshore on that thing. Of course, they finished in under the 30 hour time limit while the marvelous 8ksb Santana 35 I was on didn't. There's something to be said for maximum speed and minimum accommodations.

 

Off course they are not ocean boats - but they are tougher than you think. Guess you must have encountered the Rented Mule?

Yup it be Rented Mule...

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Long distance duh

You get what u get

Nobody is stupid or a masochist but you cannot pick the conditions

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Long distance duh

You get what u get

Nobody is stupid or a masochist but you cannot pick the conditions

Well you are not prevented from looking at a weather outlook before pushing off

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So I don't like the conditions and I don't Want to play ? Kind of sucks.

Why bother paying a couple of hundred bucks entry fee and get crew if you not going to compete?

 

 

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See you don't like the GP 26 either lol

The only boat is the Viper 830!

 

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Any idea of what sort of wind speeds they had for that last video to reach 14knts of boat speed??

 

If I'm reading the multi-display correctly, it looks like 22knots TWS

Yea, thanks. I was on a computer that i could not read it the fist time.

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Any idea of what sort of wind speeds they had for that last video to reach 14knts of boat speed??

 

If I'm reading the multi-display correctly, it looks like 22knots TWS

Yea, thanks. I was on a computer that i could not read it the fist time.

a little slower than a M24!

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i like it

Clean, modern, fast and chick friendly

Certainly more versatile than most sport boats and probably not much slower.

At least it looks like you can do some long distance races unlike most sportier boats

Wouldnt want to do a 300 miler on a Viper or even a J80 ( not comparing the two but they are both about the same length and have a sprit)

Not sure I'd want to do 300 on this boat either, as nice as it looks.

 

I would probably rather do it on the Viper - at least it will be a fair bit faster..........as long as we are talking about the 830

Come on guys, you all need to step up. We are doing 500+ on an Antrim 27s down south. You could easily do that on the Seascape 27.

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Very very very nice performance !

 

 

I hope the cruising performance will only remotely as good as the sailing performance.

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i like it

Clean, modern, fast and chick friendly

Certainly more versatile than most sport boats and probably not much slower.

At least it looks like you can do some long distance races unlike most sportier boats

Wouldnt want to do a 300 miler on a Viper or even a J80 ( not comparing the two but they are both about the same length and have a sprit)

Not sure I'd want to do 300 on this boat either, as nice as it looks.

 

I would probably rather do it on the Viper - at least it will be a fair bit faster..........as long as we are talking about the 830

Come on guys, you all need to step up. We are doing 500+ on an Antrim 27s down south. You could easily do that on the Seascape 27.

no

would have no problem doing 500 in a Seascape

No way in a Viper lol

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i like it

Clean, modern, fast and chick friendly

Certainly more versatile than most sport boats and probably not much slower.

At least it looks like you can do some long distance races unlike most sportier boats

Wouldnt want to do a 300 miler on a Viper or even a J80 ( not comparing the two but they are both about the same length and have a sprit)

Not sure I'd want to do 300 on this boat either, as nice as it looks.

 

I would probably rather do it on the Viper - at least it will be a fair bit faster..........as long as we are talking about the 830

Come on guys, you all need to step up. We are doing 500+ on an Antrim 27s down south. You could easily do that on the Seascape 27.

Dont think it would be that much faster but certainly faster

Tough to sleep in though :)

Even tougher to get ladi in

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The overall package looks good, except the swinging keel. The mechanism controlling the swing is going to have to be incredibly robust. Imagine running aground while running downwind under assymetrical spinnaker and praying that the hydraulic ram, or worm drive winch doesnt blow up..

 

The first class 8m was this size and had a screw - winch system: Probably a lot of prangs, and probably the rather over engineered looking set up held while the hull cracked!

 

Not a bad way of doing things and making some more space in the cabin. You have to ask though is this not a regatta racer sleeper and not an off shore proposal ? I've slept on smaller sb's often: crawl in, fall asleep on the bench or the sails.

 

This type of economics is going to become more prominent IMHO, as it was in days gone by with Quarter Tonners and the various day boats which got "lids" like the squib and the H boat, BB10m etc. A lot more people will maybe get a loan on a boat soon, but they are going to be looking at making the monthly payments, sails and insurance rather than hotels and jet flights.

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The mechanism controlling the swing is going to have to be incredibly robust. Imagine running aground while running downwind under assymetrical spinnaker and praying that the hydraulic ram, or worm drive winch doesnt blow up...

 

there is an easy away around that - simply do not get aground while running downwind under spi. Not running aground while sailing upwind or reaching would also help keeping the structure of your boat healthier. You will not sink, but you simply can't expect to rih aground udner big speed and walk away like nothing has happened.

 

I am always amazed how normal it seems for the people to run aground with big speeds and expecting to keep on sailing like nothing has happened. Try hitting the 10cm high pavement with a car driving at 80kph and see what happends - tyres exploding, wheel rims busted, drive axles cracked, compression zones in the car, air bags will go off, etc.

And BTW this is not the fault of car design or pavement...

 

ISO standards are defining the conditions the boats must endure for those who can't read nautical charts. For classic boats with sharp bows, lots of energy is dissipated with the sinking of the bow, while for the new breed of blut nosed boats, the bow just doesn't want to sink (after all it is designed not to do so) and thus loading the structure much much more.

Back to ISO, in our case, if we would have fixed keel, the structure must withstand 3200 kgm of torque at the keel/hull joint. This is design limit, but since we're using hydraulic with release walve, this will never be reached as the release walve is set to relatively small value and the keel will move and dissipate most of the energy.

 

However, nothing is idiotproof...

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However, nothing is idiotproof...

 

top post :)

 

any pics of the finsihed interior?

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This is what I've found so far. Doesn't look like the final state but gives a good clue about the space on-board. I know you'll kill me but I wonder if they also fit a kitchen below as stated in the project sheet.

 

 

 

Download (16)

Download (20)

Download (26)

Download (25)

Download (24)

Download (23)

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Boat si off course not 100% finished but you can get the feel for most of the interior concepts. Front cabin got another hatch, utility room with doors function as planned, we peaketd at 19kts boatspeed WITH ceramic toilet inside, etc. As the design team iconsists of only Andraz and me, so we handle the projects in some order of importance. As the boat sails nice and fast, we are focusing on other stuff that will be installed as the boat comes back from Grand Pavois boat show in France (before the boat of the year trials in mid october). Interior is close but some essential things are missing like back rests, storage bags, modular kitchen (yes, we'll fit one inside), etc...

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However, nothing is idiotproof...

 

top post :)

 

any pics of the finsihed interior?

 

You know it is not about idiocy I think it is about life matters. Sorry I have a concern where this leads in terms of hazard survival when comparing sail to cars. Actually no one wants such massive death loss, people harm and such things which are consequences of cars involved in accidents on our streets everyday. People should not be allowed to compare sailing industry to car sector. Sailors should not push harm while sailing to be comparable to massive scale in car harm, but on restoring safety after any traumatic accident. This attempt of comparison is just wrong. You have to remember you never know the depth underneath and there is no guarantee the actual depth one day is likely to be the same the next. My view is designers should use their knowledge to build boats which are better than the actual iso standard instead of just look to satisfy demands of standard burdens. Next time designers will compare their boat with risk that only could happen in some potential science fiction disaster for obvious marketing reasons.

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Everyone has a choice. You can have a bullet proof boat with a top speed of 5kts and won't sail in under 10kts of breeze or you can have a high speed, light weight flyer that requires some care and respect to use safely. Some people chose the tank, others the sports car.

The energy from a keel strike at 20kts has to be absorbed somewhere, if not in damage to the keel it will be somewhere else.

Cheers

Mojo

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I think the comparison with the car industry in terms of security is not so bad. If you buy a very safe and brand new Audi or BMW with the newest safety devices on board and believe me there are a lot and many only because of some ISO Standards. They all can't help you when the car suddenly hits a partially iced road in the middle of a mountain curve. The only thing which helps you to drive or sail safely is with your brain switched on.

 

Bonk

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Everyone has a choice. You can have a bullet proof boat with a top speed of 5kts and won't sail in under 10kts of breeze or you can have a high speed, light weight flyer that requires some care and respect to use safely.

...

 

IMHO it is wrong to say that heavy, slow boats are safer. Plenty of stuff to go wrong, plenty of ways to hurt yourself on -any- boat.

 

FB- Doug

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I think the comparison with the car industry in terms of security is not so bad. If you buy a very safe and brand new Audi or BMW with the newest safety devices on board and believe me there are a lot and many only because of some ISO Standards. They all can't help you when the car suddenly hits a partially iced road in the middle of a mountain curve. The only thing which helps you to drive or sail safely is with your brain switched on.

 

Bonk

 

guys, it's a rather old philosophical dispute i don't want to endure again; to put it briefly: some assert it is all in our heads (idealists) other say the opposite, everything exist in the world outside (materialists) I guess it's a bit eclectic being an idealist with interests in materialism...i love seascape27...nothing else to say

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However, nothing is idiotproof...

 

top post :)

 

any pics of the finsihed interior?

 

You know it is not about idiocy I think it is about life matters. Sorry I have a concern where this leads in terms of hazard survival when comparing sail to cars. Actually no one wants such massive death loss, people harm and such things which are consequences of cars involved in accidents on our streets everyday. People should not be allowed to compare sailing industry to car sector. Sailors should not push harm while sailing to be comparable to massive scale in car harm, but on restoring safety after any traumatic accident. This attempt of comparison is just wrong. You have to remember you never know the depth underneath and there is no guarantee the actual depth one day is likely to be the same the next. My view is designers should use their knowledge to build boats which are better than the actual iso standard instead of just look to satisfy demands of standard burdens. Next time designers will compare their boat with risk that only could happen in some potential science fiction disaster for obvious marketing reasons.

 

you're seriously trying to say that the bottom could just reach up and grab you, and so your safety margins should be such that you can't get hurt or your boat won't sink? Certainly, there are some areas I sail in where the contours shift - winter storms move boulders around the SW and SE corners of Block Island all the time. But if I worried that suddenly I was going to run aground in 80' of water then I better take up a different sport. You're making a strawman argument about whether auto-boat comparisons are valid, while ignoring the fact that the Seascape is designed to provide safety in excess of the ISO standards.

 

also trying to express interest for differences…don’t like to land a car in a mooring and to park a boat in a parking lot, of course you can park your boat on trailer

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Can't believe this thread was sarted in March...

 

What's it rate? :o

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Can't believe this thread was sarted in March...

 

What's it rate? :o

 

if you are talking IRC, my guess is badly.

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The people from bielmarin have posted their first impressions on their website: http://www.biehlmari...eindruecke.html

Mind you, they're the distrubutor for Germany and therefore even less impartial than the usual journal-test-crew.

For those Anarchists who don't speak German I took the liberty to translate (no warranty here):

 

On the water: We have sailed the prototype of the 27 on teh mediterranean in light to moderate winds (8-15 kts).

 

Stable: The first thing that stands out when you come aboard, is how incredibly stable she lies in the water. This is confirmed immediately while sailing. Even if provoked, the 27 will not broach. Whit every degree of heeling she becomes more stable. She's got high initial stability because of the beam and the distinct chines, as well as impressive final stability thanks to the long lever of the swing keel and the lead bulb, the light carbonrigg and lightweight build of deck and hull with a low center of gravity.

 

Fast: All our expectations were fulfilled or surpassed! Under gennaker 9kts boatspeed at 8 kts wind, 14 kts boatspeed in 13kts of wind... over 20 kts in higher winds - no problem!

On a beat in 12 kts of wind under full sail between 6.5 and 7 kts (with a professional crew, however). The 27 beats well to wind too, because below the waterline she's rounder and slimmer than suggested by the chines above water- she even resembles our daysailor, if with an other lenght to beam ratio. This makes for good light wind capabilities, cf. videos in light wind. She can be steered exceptionally easily and precisely. Absolutely addictive!!!

 

Solid: We sailed the prototype, which we knew from the building phase. So there's always room for improvement - thats what prototypes are for. Nonetheless is was evident that the hull is stiff, the rigg stable and the keel solid as a rock. It is the result of not only the good building material and production but also the experience of designer Manuard and the guys at Seascape.

 

Inside: Well thought out! Big double birth in front, then a multipurpose room, which contains the head. This room can be separated by a very handy magnet folding door in many ways: either you only hide the head and leave evrything alse open, or you speerate the front cabin or the salon. Very cool!

The salon seats 6 or sleeps 2. The trunk of teh keel does not disturb at all. There is space for a nav computer in a PeliCase and below the companion way there is a cooler for the real important stuff.

There is no "kitchen" - a picknickbasket and a portable cooker are recommended.

 

Finish of the interior: Well, it was a prototype...But seriously: you wont get smooth and shiny wihtout seams [?] out of the shipyard. It will be technical and rough, in order to conserve weight and to fit the carbon rigg and the keel mechanics into the budget. That's the concept - take it or leave it.

 

To me this is still a very interesting boat, possibly my next one. Hope this helps - enjoy!

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hi guys,

I do not fancy getting into the debate whether the ISO standards are adequate or not, because they are accepted as a bechmark by guys who are more experienced than us However, I do have some comments about abovementioned replies...

IRC - in this config., forget about it. Boat is simply too light and too stable for IRC and you'll get the get a very punishing numbers. We tried to optimize the boat for IRC but the people in charge looked at teh concept and said "forget about it". In the last years we saw a move in rating that punishes light and fast boats, because after all, bhe big boys investing some serious cash in their big toys, cannot afford not to come home without some silverware. So if you're shorter than let's say 50 ft, your chances of winning an IRC event are fairly slim.

Regarding the upwind speeds, we just observed what we got, without too much optimizing: in powered up conditions, the boat can sail at 5.8kt @ 40° or 6-6.2kt@ 45°making roughly the same VMG. in strong conditions (25kts) with staysail and 1st reef, the boat will sail at 6,2kt. Tacking angle is strongly dependant on the waves and sea state.

And as always with the fast boats, if you crack the sheets a bit, not very careful driver can quickly start chasing numbers by bearing away...

 

http://postimage.org/image/br07ribhx/

http://postimage.org/image/rhgqor8a1/

http://postimage.org/image/my4i38qeh/

 

p.s. And yes, we plan to have a kitchen using the JetBoil burners...

Edited by Kristian Seascape

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hi guys,

I do not fancy getting into the debate whether the ISO standards are adequate or not, because they are accepted as a bechmark by guys who are more experienced than us However, I do have some comments about abovementioned replies...

IRC - in this config., forget about it. Boat is simply too light and too stable for IRC and you'll get the get a very punishing numbers. We tried to optimize the boat for IRC but the people in charge looked at teh concept and said "forget about it". In the last years we saw a move in rating that punishes light and fast boats, because after all, bhe big boys investing some serious cash in their big toys, cannot afford not to come home without some silverware. So if you're shorter than let's say 50 ft, your chances of winning an IRC event are fairly slim.

Regarding the upwind speeds, we just observed what we got, without too much optimizing: in powered up conditions, the boat can sail at 5.8kt @ 40° or 6-6.2kt@ 45°making roughly the same VMG. in strong conditions (25kts) with staysail and 1st reef, the boat will sail at 6,2kt. Tacking angle is strongly dependant on the waves and sea state.

And as always with the fast boats, if you crack the sheets a bit, not very careful driver can quickly start chasing numbers by bearing away...

 

http://postimage.org/image/br07ribhx/

http://postimage.org/image/rhgqor8a1/

http://postimage.org/image/my4i38qeh/

 

p.s. And yes, we plan to have a kitchen using the JetBoil burners...

So how would it fair in the US market in regards to PHRF? Rating? What boat/boats would it measure up against?

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> So how would it fair in the US market in regards to PHRF? Rating? What boat/boats would it measure up against?

this has to be answered by somebody who is familiar with PHRF, as nobody over here is using anything similar...

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> So how would it fair in the US market in regards to PHRF? Rating? What boat/boats would it measure up against?

this has to be answered by somebody who is familiar with PHRF, as nobody over here is using anything similar...

 

If its been rated, there are some baseline conversions. Like here:

 

http://www.phrfne.or...ersion_formulae

 

That would be a starting point. PHRF numbers adjust over time (so they say) based on actual on the water performance. Sportboats are harder because of the speed potential off the wind under the right conditions. If you're really interested ship one over and I'll drive it around for a few seasons.

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> So how would it fair in the US market in regards to PHRF? Rating? What boat/boats would it measure up against?

this has to be answered by somebody who is familiar with PHRF, as nobody over here is using anything similar...

Have you all had the chance to have the boat measured for any of the other performance rating systems more prevelant to Europe? IRC etc?

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