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      A Few Simple Rules   05/22/2017

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Tejano

VX. Deal killer for used Vipers

23 posts in this topic

Is it just me, or do the used Vipers seem to be piling up in the want ads while the VX is the new girl on the block?

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Just you.... boats come up in packs from time to time. Always have, and I do not believe it has anything at all to do with other boat options out there.

 

New VX's seem to cost quite a bit more than the majority of used Vipers, so I do not see it as a deal killer.

 

Is it just me, or do the used Vipers seem to be piling up in the want ads while the VX is the new girl on the block?

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Its just you! (maybe you're trollin')

 

Just checked the SA Classified and didn't see a single Viper 640 listed.

 

Where are you "finding" all of the bodies that are supposedly piling up?

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Is it just me, or do the used Vipers seem to be piling up in the want ads while the VX is the new girl on the block?

 

Can you race a VX OD in the Viper Fleets? Guessing not - so why would they be related?

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Its just you! (maybe you're trollin')

 

Just checked the SA Classified and didn't see a single Viper 640 listed.

 

Where are you "finding" all of the bodies that are supposedly piling up?

 

 

He's a lying pimp employing some Nicole Scott 'Astro-turfing' to try and create a truth

 

 

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Perhaps he just got the boats mixed up in the title of the post? tongue.gif Seriously though, isn't that an equally valid question? Used Viper. Deal Killer for VX. A used Viper costs less than a new VX, and you get an active racing calendar for your money, just about anywhere in North America. 40+ racing in Charleston in 2 weeks, 50+ expected for the North Americans in September in Marblehead. And oh, there is in fact a market for used Vipers. Heck, a NEW Viper is only about $5K more than a VX, not a big cost premium to have the ability to race one-design the day your new boat is delivered.

 

There are 3 Rondar Vipers listed as of today, and 6 of the 15 year old Performance Boats Vipers (and one of those is actually sold). 8 for sale is low single digits percentage of the entire population of Vipers, <5% turning over at the beginning of the sailing season. I don't see that as a big deal.

 

I personally think what you're seeing is that asking prices for the old Performance Boats Vipers may be rather on the inflated side at the moment. $20K for a 15 year old boat with used sails? When a new one with new sails, new running rigging, no gelcoat to epoxy bonding concerns, no leaking keelbox, no dings & scratches can be yours for <$35K? The old boats at these sorts of prices may not be a compelling enough value at those prices vs. a new or newer used Viper, particularly when a buyer factors in the cost of a new suit of sails at close to $5K. I would think that if those sellers were anxious to cash out of those boats, we'd see asking price adjustments in the next month or two, if they don't start moving.

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Troll?

 

Is it just me, or do the used Vipers seem to be piling up in the want ads while the VX is the new girl on the block?

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This BS Original post needs to be consigned to the trash can. at the ministry of disinformation.

 

 

Used Vipers are too expensive because they hold their value. I have never been in a class where used boats are so sought after and values remain stubbornly high. For used raceboats to be selling for between 17% less than the price the owner paid to in many cases premiums ( a boat that actually appreciates in value!!!!) is virtually unheard of.

 

From my selfish perspective, it is not neccesarily helping the class, because I want to move a generation of sailors into less expensive used Vipers. As the guy who helps prospective owners find used boats, I WISH they would come down in price more like a Melges . The fact is the class is still growing and motivated sellers get their prices, so less motivated ones hold out for a fancy price. I saw several move very quickly this year when the sellers priced them to go. Jep's will go very quickly because its a great boat and he has priced it well. I will have folks fighting over that boat.

 

I had thought that as the total fleet grew in size, and the total pool of boats grew, and age of ownership expanded, we would see a greater number of boats for sale. But the class is still relatively young and the number of used boats for sale has not grown as fast as the fleet has grown. As we approach 200 boats, I am not seeing twice as many boats to sell as when there were 100 boats. I have a blast email list of people who want to be told about used boats. I am constantly whittling it down to get rid of tire kickers and only have serious prospects, but it keeps going up. When I ask them why dont they buy the remaining boats on classified? With some justification, they point out that they haven't depreciated as much as one would expect. Then they kick themselves when there are none for sale as we approach NAs.

 

I sincerely expect the supply of used Vipers to gradually improve as the size of the total fleet continues to expand. However the value of the used boats is not determined just by the age of boats, it also reflects the one design nature of a succesful class.

An SB3 cost more in 2007 than a new Viper but now sells for a fraction of the price because the class went pear shaped. I paid less for my Viper than I sold my J24, and I bet I could sell my Viper today and buy back 4 J24s of that vintage.

 

Mambo Out.

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Dan, i cant believe you replied to this garbage.

 

VX owners dont support this nonsense, you shouldn't perpetuate it.

 

 

Perhaps he just got the boats mixed up in the title of the post? tongue.gif Seriously though, isn't that an equally valid question? Used Viper. Deal Killer for VX. A used Viper costs less than a new VX, and you get an active racing calendar for your money, just about anywhere in North America. 40+ racing in Charleston in 2 weeks, 50+ expected for the North Americans in September in Marblehead. And oh, there is in fact a market for used Vipers. Heck, a NEW Viper is only about $5K more than a VX, not a big cost premium to have the ability to race one-design the day your new boat is delivered.

 

There are 3 Rondar Vipers listed as of today, and 6 of the 15 year old Performance Boats Vipers (and one of those is actually sold). 8 for sale is low single digits percentage of the entire population of Vipers, <5% turning over at the beginning of the sailing season. I don't see that as a big deal.

 

I personally think what you're seeing is that asking prices for the old Performance Boats Vipers may be rather on the inflated side at the moment. $20K for a 15 year old boat with used sails? When a new one with new sails, new running rigging, no gelcoat to epoxy bonding concerns, no leaking keelbox, no dings & scratches can be yours for <$35K? The old boats at these sorts of prices may not be a compelling enough value at those prices vs. a new or newer used Viper, particularly when a buyer factors in the cost of a new suit of sails at close to $5K. I would think that if those sellers were anxious to cash out of those boats, we'd see asking price adjustments in the next month or two, if they don't start moving.

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Dan, i cant believe you replied to this garbage.

 

VX owners dont support this nonsense, you shouldn't perpetuate it.

 

 

 

 

Amen Brother.

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Vipers seem to be piling up in the want ads

 

 

Yup the want ads (or at least the folks looking for that reasonably priced used Viper) continue to grow.

 

 

Unfortunately, there are only 9 Vipers advertized for sale nationwide.

1 of these is sold

6 are advertized for a HIGHER price than they cost when the boat was new (sigh)

 

To cap it all, I thought I had an addition to our local fleet for one reasonably priced used boat. We offered the full asking price but the existing owner decided "Nah. Im going to keep it" because he wants to do the NAs at Marblehead. :angry: .

 

 

I'm going to try and put together a "kick ass" new boat fleet deal and challenge Rondar to provide the Viper fleet with a fleet deal equivalent to their aggresive pricing on the K6 ahead of our NAs. They owe us ! Hopefully this will do two things:-

1. Get a price that tempts all those folks who keep calling me looking for a "nearly new" boat. There are only two used Rondar boats on the market anywhere in the country and only one that is a Mark III .

2. Create some movement on the prices of the older used boats, so we can have some more entry level pricing.

 

The simple fact is that we need more boats.......and the only way to create a bigger supply of used boats is to have a bigger pool of new boats. Because as we roll towards September folks will be looking to beg, buy, charter and steal boats.

 

Anyone interested in a fleet deal for Vipers.....PM me. I'm aiming for such a good deal that Rondar wont dare publish the price.

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Just a side note here. I bought Viper #29 (built in 1997) back in October of 2010. While she was in her original form and required some work, all the upgrades are now complete and I now have a dry boat that I would argue is just as fast (and pretty) as any of the new boats on the line. I have enjoyed the time I've spent working on my boat and the compliments it gets at regattas only make it all that much better. People can't believe it's a very early Viper.

 

If anyone out there has any reservations of buying an old Bennett boat, please send me a message to talk about it. If you're in the area and want to go for a sail on my 'old' boat, I'd be happy to try to work something out. Our fleet in Ontario/Michigan is now up to 9 boats, and continues to grow.

 

My fellow owners/sailors in the Viper class are fantastic people. There is typically an organized 'chalk talk' after racing to share go fast tips and to help bring newbie's along (like me). In the beer tents everyone is friendly too.

 

This season I'm looking forward to racing in Charleston, Detroit, Toronto, Sarnia, Newport, and hopefully a few more (Rye, Ottawa, ...). Even getting a few local boats together for tuning day is something we've talked about.

 

I have no regrets about buying this boat and joining the Viper class. The boat has been EXACTLY what I was looking for:

- One Design

- Trailerable with a small V6 (One of the local owners can tow his boat with his honda civic hatch back)

- Ramp launchable

- Simple enough to take out my non sailing wife or beginner 12 year old nephew (raced HPDO with him and my brother)

- Sizeable class that has both large National and Regional regattas and fun smaller local events.

- Fast

Seems to check all those boxes. I can't see my boat listed on the 'for sale' forum any time soon!

post-2197-068243400 1334075813_thumb.jpg

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Giby, youve done a fantastic job on that boat. It's rock solid and will be competitive for many years to come.

 

Id go so far as to say these "old" boats are better than the current ones from a longevity standpoint and if anything we will see some of these rondars skip on below bennetts as they get some years on them.

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Giby's boat is gorgeous. And there is no doubt that ANY Viper is capable of winning ANY race. In the Pan Am series last year, there were something like 29 different race winners over 46 races in 4 regattas (paraphrasing, don't have time to look it up right now). The oldest boat actively racing (#18) regularly wins races. The newest boat that has ever raced (#178) won the final race of Bacardi with a brand new owner steering. #179 & #180 will be joining the fun at Charleston.

 

Go ahead and PM Mambo Kings for a fleet package deal, he's a tough negotiator. What's the over/under MK? 8? 12? Make me work, I challenge you! tongue.gif

 

Or PM me directly, someone here did just a few minutes ago. You won't be alone!

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Just out of curiousity, is the concensus on how the Performance Boats (Bennetts) compare to the Rondars?

 

Has Rondar started producing boats in the US? If so, are they building Vipers here?

 

Without pouring through the forums, what are the known issues with older boats, Rondars or Performance Boats?

 

Is there any market for the Alum. rigs and sails?

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They all have one common problem, sailing them will cause a phenomenon called "permagrin"

 

Theres medication, you order it online at www.jboats.com

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Lots of race data to back up that there is little difference between Rondar and Performance Boats that are well maintained.

Keel boxes leaking are an issue on older boats but that has now been figured out.

All the boats until the latest generation had leaky built in lockers, again lots of info on how to stop that.

There appears to be a market for the old rigs with the i550 crowd, sail, have em made into bags...

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They all have one common problem, sailing them will cause a phenomenon called "permagrin"

 

Theres medication, you order it online at www.jboats.com

 

There's the Ultra we all know and love!

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Lakeboy, yes, we're building boats in the USA. So far 20 Firefly dinghies, a few sample collegiate 420s and we're buried in large order of Tech dinghies. Impossible to convey in words and pictures how solid these boats are. All resin infused, foam cored, lightweight brick shithouses.

 

Viper tooling is built, but not arrived from the home office yet.

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Don't spoil it

 

They all have one common problem, sailing them will cause a phenomenon called "permagrin"

 

Theres medication, you order it online at www.jboats.com

 

There's the Ultra we all know and love!

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Vipers seem to be piling up in the want ads

 

 

Yup the want ads (or at least the folks looking for that reasonably priced used Viper) continue to grow.

 

 

Unfortunately, there are only 9 Vipers advertized for sale nationwide.

1 of these is sold

6 are advertized for a HIGHER price than they cost when the boat was new (sigh)

 

To cap it all, I thought I had an addition to our local fleet for one reasonably priced used boat. We offered the full asking price but the existing owner decided "Nah. Im going to keep it" because he wants to do the NAs at Marblehead. :angry: .

 

 

I'm going to try and put together a "kick ass" new boat fleet deal and challenge Rondar to provide the Viper fleet with a fleet deal equivalent to their aggresive pricing on the K6 ahead of our NAs. They owe us ! Hopefully this will do two things:-

1. Get a price that tempts all those folks who keep calling me looking for a "nearly new" boat. There are only two used Rondar boats on the market anywhere in the country and only one that is a Mark III .

2. Create some movement on the prices of the older used boats, so we can have some more entry level pricing.

 

The simple fact is that we need more boats.......and the only way to create a bigger supply of used boats is to have a bigger pool of new boats. Because as we roll towards September folks will be looking to beg, buy, charter and steal boats.

 

Anyone interested in a fleet deal for Vipers.....PM me. I'm aiming for such a good deal that Rondar wont dare publish the price.

FWIW, once you get in the 500+ range, prices stabilize really damned well. When the Russians were buying M24s a few years ago to ship to Odessa (yep, they have a 1D fleet), I helped them buy four early hulls for around $25k. Each seller had paid 25k or less for their boat, sometimes a decade before. Try that with a sportscar!

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