Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Hard On The Wind

Colregs required at night by sailing instructions.

Recommended Posts

In a situation where the colregs are indicated at night rather than the RRS what are the rights and duties of the boats in an overtaking situation?

 

The colregs say the the stand-on vessels must hold their course. So if you're being overtaken down wind you have to hold your course and you can't defend yourself by heading up. On the other hand the colregs say that the overtaking vessel must "keep out of the way of the vessel being overtaken". I would read that to mean that if the overtaking vessel blocks the wind of the vessel being overtaken that they break this rule. How are these cases decided? Precedent?

 

colregs rule 13

 

Related questions:

 

1) The colregs define overtaking just as the angle relative to the stern of the boat. It does not indicate how far aft. So reading the rules would indicate that a boat a mile back would cause the boat ahead to not change course even if the wind direction changes. That is absurd but there is nothing in the rules to help that. At what distance or closing time does the rule cause the overtaken boat to stop turning?

 

2) The colregs require to boat being over taken to hold their speed. If the wind dies does that require them to put their motor on to hold the speed? If the wind increases do you have to luff your sails to keep your speed constant?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In a situation where the colregs are indicated at night rather than the RRS what are the rights and duties of the boats in an overtaking situation?

 

The colregs say the the stand-on vessels must hold their course. So if you're being overtaken down wind you have to hold your course and you can't defend yourself by heading up. On the other hand the colregs say that the overtaking vessel must "keep out of the way of the vessel being overtaken". I would read that to mean that if the overtaking vessel blocks the wind of the vessel being overtaken that they break this rule. How are these cases decided? Precedent?

 

colregs rule 13

 

"keep out of the way of the vessel being overtaken". Means what it says. Does not mean ""keep out of the way of the wind of the vessel being overtaken".

 

edit.... could apply to vessels on the wind.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In a situation where the colregs are indicated at night rather than the RRS what are the rights and duties of the boats in an overtaking situation?

 

The colregs say the the stand-on vessels must hold their course. So if you're being overtaken down wind you have to hold your course and you can't defend yourself by heading up. On the other hand the colregs say that the overtaking vessel must "keep out of the way of the vessel being overtaken". I would read that to mean that if the overtaking vessel blocks the wind of the vessel being overtaken that they break this rule. How are these cases decided? Precedent?

 

colregs rule 13

 

"keep out of the way of the vessel being overtaken". Means what it says. Does not mean ""keep out of the way of the wind of the vessel being overtaken".

 

edit.... could apply to vessels on the wind.

The "way" of a sailboat is the wind. Everyone knows that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

a reasonable interpretation of colregs would allow the stand-on vessel to alter course provided she does not interfer with the overtaking vessel (and there is a heavy onus on the vessel so altering)

 

iow, if you have an overtaking vessel taking (or likely to take) your wind, gybe and get outa the way

 

imho it will be very close to a breach of colregs if the overtaking vessel then gybes after you.

 

frankly, it's also close to a breach of colregs if the other vessel gets near enough at night to blanket you. this may be a bit subjective, but i find RC take a very strict view on any funny business at night and will probably err towards penalising rather than ignoring.

 

cheers,

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In a situation where the colregs are indicated at night rather than the RRS what are the rights and duties of the boats in an overtaking situation?

 

The colregs say the the stand-on vessels must hold their course. So if you're being overtaken down wind you have to hold your course and you can't defend yourself by heading up. On the other hand the colregs say that the overtaking vessel must "keep out of the way of the vessel being overtaken". I would read that to mean that if the overtaking vessel blocks the wind of the vessel being overtaken that they break this rule. How are these cases decided? Precedent?

 

colregs rule 13

 

"keep out of the way of the vessel being overtaken". Means what it says. Does not mean ""keep out of the way of the wind of the vessel being overtaken".

 

edit.... could apply to vessels on the wind.

The "way" of a sailboat is the wind. Everyone knows that.

Try that in the room and see how you go - or has that already happened?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The major difference between colregs and racing rules is that all the stuff about defending your position, overlaps and all the rest of it is completely out of the window. They are intended to make collisions impossible by stopping potential close quarters situations developing.

IRPCAS 16. Every vessel which is directed to keep out of the way of another vessel shall, so far as possible, take early and substantial action to keep well clear.

IRPCAS 17. Where one of two vessels is to keep out of the way the other shall keep her course and speed.

 

So early and substantial action to keep well clear in my mind precludes taking anyone's wind, and keeping course and speed absolutely precludes "defending" yourself. Keep well clear is something entirely different to the RRS definition of keep clear.

 

See case 38 in the case book.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The major difference between colregs and racing rules is that all the stuff about defending your position, overlaps and all the rest of it is completely out of the window. They are intended to make collisions impossible by stopping potential close quarters situations developing.

IRPCAS 16. Every vessel which is directed to keep out of the way of another vessel shall, so far as possible, take early and substantial action to keep well clear.

IRPCAS 17. Where one of two vessels is to keep out of the way the other shall keep her course and speed.

 

So early and substantial action to keep well clear in my mind precludes taking anyone's wind, and keeping course and speed absolutely precludes "defending" yourself. Keep well clear is something entirely different to the RRS definition of keep clear.

 

See case 38 in the case book.

If the wind changes direction and you have to change heading to keep your speed constant, which of the two imperatives in "keeping course and speed absolutely" takes priority?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Course. Speed is only a consideration at large angles anyway. Remember the only object of the exercise is to avoid collisions.

 

And if you're even thinking about tactical situations then you're way out of line.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Course. Speed is only a consideration at large angles anyway. Remember the only object of the exercise is to avoid collisions.

 

And if you're even thinking about tactical situations then you're way out of line.

And where in the colregs did you read that?

 

A sailboat needs to make adjustments to the wind. If another boat comes from behind so close that it doesn't allow the sailboat to keep their way on then it is to close?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And where in the colregs did you read that?

The preamble to Case 38 will do.

I suspect you're trolling to make some kinda dumb point. But a boat that approaches that close is not keeping well clear.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Rule 13 (Colregs) applies to power & sail. No exceptions - no differences. A sailing vessel overtaking a power vessel must keep out of the way of the power vessel.

 

The overtaking boat must keep out of the way of the boat being overtaken (a boat is overtaking another if at night it would see the stern light - ie. from dead astern to 65 degrees on either side). The vessel being overtaken must maintain it's course & speed UNLESS action is required to avoid a collision. The Colregs contain no exceptions for wind shifts.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And where in the colregs did you read that?

The preamble to Case 38 will do.

I suspect you're trolling to make some kinda dumb point. But a boat that approaches that close is not keeping well clear.

Where can I find case 38?

 

I'm making no point. I'm trying to understand how the rule works.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Rule 13 (Colregs) applies to power & sail. No exceptions - no differences. A sailing vessel overtaking a power vessel must keep out of the way of the power vessel.

 

The overtaking boat must keep out of the way of the boat being overtaken (a boat is overtaking another if at night it would see the stern light - ie. from dead astern to 65 degrees on either side). The vessel being overtaken must maintain it's course & speed UNLESS action is required to avoid a collision. The Colregs contain no exceptions for wind shifts.

But if the wind changes how can a sailboat maintain it's course and speed?

 

And at what separation distance must the stand-on boat start to maintain course and speed. A mile? A boat length? 60 seconds before overlapped. AT WHAT DISTANCE?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Rule 13 (Colregs) applies to power & sail. No exceptions - no differences. A sailing vessel overtaking a power vessel must keep out of the way of the power vessel.

 

The overtaking boat must keep out of the way of the boat being overtaken (a boat is overtaking another if at night it would see the stern light - ie. from dead astern to 65 degrees on either side). The vessel being overtaken must maintain it's course & speed UNLESS action is required to avoid a collision. The Colregs contain no exceptions for wind shifts.

But if the wind changes how can a sailboat maintain it's course and speed?

 

Serioulsy

 

your objective is to avoid a collision, if you are the stand on vessel, and you are unable to maintain both course and speed, you need to take the action which is most easily predicted by the give way vessel and least likely to cause a collision.

what that is will depend on circumstances.

 

but as JimC says if you are trying to play this for strategic advantage you are totally missing the point. the Objective of the Colregs is to avoid collision.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Rule 13 (Colregs) applies to power & sail. No exceptions - no differences. A sailing vessel overtaking a power vessel must keep out of the way of the power vessel.

 

The overtaking boat must keep out of the way of the boat being overtaken (a boat is overtaking another if at night it would see the stern light - ie. from dead astern to 65 degrees on either side). The vessel being overtaken must maintain it's course & speed UNLESS action is required to avoid a collision. The Colregs contain no exceptions for wind shifts.

But if the wind changes how can a sailboat maintain it's course and speed?

 

And at what separation distance must the stand-on boat start to maintain course and speed. A mile? A boat length? 60 seconds before overlapped. AT WHAT DISTANCE?

Let me guess. You were being overtaken by another boat and you luffed them, they protested, and you were disqualified and don't like it.

 

No distance or time is laid down. If you hindered the overtaking boat in it's attempts to keep clear - you're fucked! That simple.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In a situation where the colregs are indicated at night rather than the RRS what are the rights and duties of the boats in an overtaking situation?

 

The colregs say the the stand-on vessels must hold their course. So if you're being overtaken down wind you have to hold your course and you can't defend yourself by heading up. On the other hand the colregs say that the overtaking vessel must "keep out of the way of the vessel being overtaken". I would read that to mean that if the overtaking vessel blocks the wind of the vessel being overtaken that they break this rule. How are these cases decided? Precedent?

 

colregs rule 13

 

Related questions:

 

1) The colregs define overtaking just as the angle relative to the stern of the boat. It does not indicate how far aft. So reading the rules would indicate that a boat a mile back would cause the boat ahead to not change course even if the wind direction changes. That is absurd but there is nothing in the rules to help that. At what distance or closing time does the rule cause the overtaken boat to stop turning?

 

2) The colregs require to boat being over taken to hold their speed. If the wind dies does that require them to put their motor on to hold the speed? If the wind increases do you have to luff your sails to keep your speed constant?

Ask Evo, I am sure he will have the answer, and if not he will make something up that sounds good :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Rule 13 (Colregs) applies to power & sail. No exceptions - no differences. A sailing vessel overtaking a power vessel must keep out of the way of the power vessel.

 

The overtaking boat must keep out of the way of the boat being overtaken (a boat is overtaking another if at night it would see the stern light - ie. from dead astern to 65 degrees on either side). The vessel being overtaken must maintain it's course & speed UNLESS action is required to avoid a collision. The Colregs contain no exceptions for wind shifts.

But if the wind changes how can a sailboat maintain it's course and speed?

 

And at what separation distance must the stand-on boat start to maintain course and speed. A mile? A boat length? 60 seconds before overlapped. AT WHAT DISTANCE?

Let me guess. You were being overtaken by another boat and you luffed them, they protested, and you were disqualified and don't like it.

 

No distance or time is laid down. If you hindered the overtaking boat in it's attempts to keep clear - you're fucked! That simple.

That's completely wrong. Please reconsider my questions.

 

The circumstance was where a boat 4 boat lengths behind our boat when our driver came up. The boat behind started to call the colregs and demand the the driver come down. So in this case there was no luffing involved at all. When our driver came down to the original heading the boat behind jibed away immediately.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Rule 13 (Colregs) applies to power & sail. No exceptions - no differences. A sailing vessel overtaking a power vessel must keep out of the way of the power vessel.

 

The overtaking boat must keep out of the way of the boat being overtaken (a boat is overtaking another if at night it would see the stern light - ie. from dead astern to 65 degrees on either side). The vessel being overtaken must maintain it's course & speed UNLESS action is required to avoid a collision. The Colregs contain no exceptions for wind shifts.

But if the wind changes how can a sailboat maintain it's course and speed?

 

And at what separation distance must the stand-on boat start to maintain course and speed. A mile? A boat length? 60 seconds before overlapped. AT WHAT DISTANCE?

Let me guess. You were being overtaken by another boat and you luffed them, they protested, and you were disqualified and don't like it.

 

No distance or time is laid down. If you hindered the overtaking boat in it's attempts to keep clear - you're fucked! That simple.

That's completely wrong. Please reconsider my questions.

 

You have received several answers from several people - you just don't want to accept those answers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Rule 13 (Colregs) applies to power & sail. No exceptions - no differences. A sailing vessel overtaking a power vessel must keep out of the way of the power vessel.

 

The overtaking boat must keep out of the way of the boat being overtaken (a boat is overtaking another if at night it would see the stern light - ie. from dead astern to 65 degrees on either side). The vessel being overtaken must maintain it's course & speed UNLESS action is required to avoid a collision. The Colregs contain no exceptions for wind shifts.

But if the wind changes how can a sailboat maintain it's course and speed?

 

And at what separation distance must the stand-on boat start to maintain course and speed. A mile? A boat length? 60 seconds before overlapped. AT WHAT DISTANCE?

Let me guess. You were being overtaken by another boat and you luffed them, they protested, and you were disqualified and don't like it.

 

No distance or time is laid down. If you hindered the overtaking boat in it's attempts to keep clear - you're fucked! That simple.

That's completely wrong. Please reconsider my questions.

 

You have received several answers from several people - you just don't want to accept those answers.

There is no answer to the question of "how much separation is there when the boat ahead has to hold their course". If the closing speed is .5knots and the boat is 10 boat lengths behind there is no chance of a collision but the regs would require you to hold your course at that time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Rule 13 (Colregs) applies to power & sail. No exceptions - no differences. A sailing vessel overtaking a power vessel must keep out of the way of the power vessel.

 

The overtaking boat must keep out of the way of the boat being overtaken (a boat is overtaking another if at night it would see the stern light - ie. from dead astern to 65 degrees on either side). The vessel being overtaken must maintain it's course & speed UNLESS action is required to avoid a collision. The Colregs contain no exceptions for wind shifts.

But if the wind changes how can a sailboat maintain it's course and speed?

 

And at what separation distance must the stand-on boat start to maintain course and speed. A mile? A boat length? 60 seconds before overlapped. AT WHAT DISTANCE?

Let me guess. You were being overtaken by another boat and you luffed them, they protested, and you were disqualified and don't like it.

 

No distance or time is laid down. If you hindered the overtaking boat in it's attempts to keep clear - you're fucked! That simple.

That's completely wrong. Please reconsider my questions.

 

The circumstance was where a boat 4 boat lengths behind our boat when our driver came up. The boat behind started to call the colregs and demand the the driver come down. So in this case there was no luffing involved at all. When our driver came down to the original heading the boat behind jibed away immediately.

 

case 38

 

if as stand on vessel you act to change your course in any way which hinders the give way vessel from keeping clear then you are in the wrong.

 

Your driver coming up.... is what is known as luffing.

Their driver gybing away meets their colregs requirements of giving way

 

Any action you take which increases the chance of collision, or makes it harder for the give way vessel to figure out what you are doing is the wrong choice

 

any action you take to helps the give way boat overtake you cleanly and easily with minimum confusion meets your obligations.

the whole concept here is that they are moving faster than you... they are expected to go past you, you are expected to make it easy for them to do so.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Course. Speed is only a consideration at large angles anyway. Remember the only object of the exercise is to avoid collisions.

 

And if you're even thinking about tactical situations then you're way out of line.

 

And where in the colregs did you read that?

 

Where in the colregs do they hand out trophies for getting ahead?

 

A vessel deliberately maneuvering closer to another vessel is a violation of the very purpose of colregs in the first place. In a collision under those circumstances the Admiralty court would dig up your momma and bitch-slap her

 

 

A sailboat needs to make adjustments to the wind. If another boat comes from behind so close that it doesn't allow the sailboat to keep their way on then it is to close?

 

Yes

 

Did you really have to ask this question?

 

FB- Doug

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Rule 13 (Colregs) applies to power & sail. No exceptions - no differences. A sailing vessel overtaking a power vessel must keep out of the way of the power vessel.

 

The overtaking boat must keep out of the way of the boat being overtaken (a boat is overtaking another if at night it would see the stern light - ie. from dead astern to 65 degrees on either side). The vessel being overtaken must maintain it's course & speed UNLESS action is required to avoid a collision. The Colregs contain no exceptions for wind shifts.

But if the wind changes how can a sailboat maintain it's course and speed?

 

And at what separation distance must the stand-on boat start to maintain course and speed. A mile? A boat length? 60 seconds before overlapped. AT WHAT DISTANCE?

Let me guess. You were being overtaken by another boat and you luffed them, they protested, and you were disqualified and don't like it.

 

No distance or time is laid down. If you hindered the overtaking boat in it's attempts to keep clear - you're fucked! That simple.

That's completely wrong. Please reconsider my questions.

 

The circumstance was where a boat 4 boat lengths behind our boat when our driver came up. The boat behind started to call the colregs and demand the the driver come down. So in this case there was no luffing involved at all. When our driver came down to the original heading the boat behind jibed away immediately.

 

case 38

 

if as stand on vessel you act to change your course in any way which hinders the give way vessel from keeping clear then you are in the wrong.

 

Your driver coming up.... is what is known as luffing.

Their driver gybing away meets their colregs requirements of giving way

 

Any action you take which increases the chance of collision, or makes it harder for the give way vessel to figure out what you are doing is the wrong choice

 

any action you take to helps the give way boat overtake you cleanly and easily with minimum confusion meets your obligations.

the whole concept here is that they are moving faster than you... they are expected to go past you, you are expected to make it easy for them to do so.

A driver coming up when boats are not overlapped is not known as luffing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

case 38

 

if as stand on vessel you act to change your course in any way which hinders the give way vessel from keeping clear then you are in the wrong.

 

Your driver coming up.... is what is known as luffing.

Their driver gybing away meets their colregs requirements of giving way

 

Any action you take which increases the chance of collision, or makes it harder for the give way vessel to figure out what you are doing is the wrong choice

 

any action you take to helps the give way boat overtake you cleanly and easily with minimum confusion meets your obligations.

the whole concept here is that they are moving faster than you... they are expected to go past you, you are expected to make it easy for them to do so.

A driver coming up when boats are not overlapped is not known as luffing.

 

Yeah I wouldn't generally use it that way either, but it is somewhat loosely used in that sense in case 38

W was to windward and clear astern of L and steadily closing up on her.......

 

It is this rule that prohibits the racing manoeuvre known as 'luffing' while the boats are so close that L's luff forces W to change course to avoid contact

Note in case 38 W is described as clear astern of L.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

OK, I got my answer in the case 38. Thanks

 

Case 38 states that:

 

Rule 17, which states in part, ‘Where one of two vessels is to keep out of the way, the other shall keep her course and

speed.’ It is this rule that prohibits the racing manoeuvre known as ‘luffing’ while the boats are so close that L’s luff forces W to change course to avoid

contact

 

If a boat clear ahead by a few boat lengths comes up then that is not known as luffing and is therefore ok by the wording in this case.

 

It also introduces the concept of "so close" which suggest that there is in fact a distance ahead where rule 17 is not active.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The discussion about using ColRegs is interesting especially when posters here are talking about taking cases to the 'room' and quoting RRS cases. If you think a boat has broken a ColReg, a Club's Protest Panel have no juristiction over these rules. A Protest Panel can only ajudicate on the Racing Rules of Sailing. A Col Reg issue would need to be taken to court with marine lawyers. Once the SIs state ColRegs to used at night, the organising authority have given away the opportunity for boats to protest over incidents during the hours of darkness.

 

There are many reasons not to use the ColRegs at night when you go through them, including but not limted to, rounding marks, overtaking boats, sailing in shipping channels etc. The VOR realised these problems a few races a go and got rid of the requirement. Subsequently a number of race organisers have also decided ColRegs are unworkable whilst racing. This a hangover from a few rule books ago when a boat could "luff as she pleases" to protect herselve from being overtaken. This no longer the case and a boat must give room to the other boat, therefore no need to revert to ColRegs at night.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

OK, I got my answer in the case 38. Thanks

 

Case 38 states that:

 

Rule 17, which states in part, 'Where one of two vessels is to keep out of the way, the other shall keep her course and

speed.' It is this rule that prohibits the racing manoeuvre known as 'luffing' while the boats are so close that L's luff forces W to change course to avoid

contact

 

If a boat clear ahead by a few boat lengths comes up then that is not known as luffing and is therefore ok by the wording in this case.

 

You have some serious reading comprehension issues.

 

Note

 

so close can be a very long way away here.

it is merely close enough that when clear ahead changed course to windward if was no longer possible for W to keep clear by maintaining her course.

 

If at any point while you skipper was coming up you where on a collision course with W you where not meeting your obligations as stand on vessel

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Rule 13 (Colregs) applies to power & sail. No exceptions - no differences. A sailing vessel overtaking a power vessel must keep out of the way of the power vessel.

 

The overtaking boat must keep out of the way of the boat being overtaken (a boat is overtaking another if at night it would see the stern light - ie. from dead astern to 65 degrees on either side). The vessel being overtaken must maintain it's course & speed UNLESS action is required to avoid a collision. The Colregs contain no exceptions for wind shifts.

But if the wind changes how can a sailboat maintain it's course and speed?

 

And at what separation distance must the stand-on boat start to maintain course and speed. A mile? A boat length? 60 seconds before overlapped. AT WHAT DISTANCE?

 

 

At a distance and speed where the possibility of collision exist given the relative speed, proximity, and manuverability of the vessels in questions. That is as precise as the rules will ever get. They are design to avoid collisions, period.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The discussion about using ColRegs is interesting especially when posters here are talking about taking cases to the 'room' and quoting RRS cases. If you think a boat has broken a ColReg, a Club's Protest Panel have no juristiction over these rules. A Protest Panel can only ajudicate on the Racing Rules of Sailing. A Col Reg issue would need to be taken to court with marine lawyers. Once the SIs state ColRegs to used at night, the organising authority have given away the opportunity for boats to protest over incidents during the hours of darkness.

 

There are many reasons not to use the ColRegs at night when you go through them, including but not limted to, rounding marks, overtaking boats, sailing in shipping channels etc. The VOR realised these problems a few races a go and got rid of the requirement. Subsequently a number of race organisers have also decided ColRegs are unworkable whilst racing. This a hangover from a few rule books ago when a boat could "luff as she pleases" to protect herselve from being overtaken. This no longer the case and a boat must give room to the other boat, therefore no need to revert to ColRegs at night.

 

Absolutely a club's protest panel can adjudicate the Right of Way between boats racing. The only penalty they can apply is either an alternate penalty like Time or a DSQ. They are not adjudicating damages or loss of life, that will be in the hands of the courts.

 

The RRS ROW rules phail at night time. There is absolutely no sense to using rules that allow contact between boats with the reduced visibility and reduced ability to judge distance during night hours. Replacing them with ColReg ROW rules where contact is banned makes complete sense.

 

Please cite other examples of night races that had ColRegs and now us RRS.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

OK, I got my answer in the case 38. Thanks

 

Case 38 states that:

 

Rule 17, which states in part, 'Where one of two vessels is to keep out of the way, the other shall keep her course and

speed.' It is this rule that prohibits the racing manoeuvre known as 'luffing' while the boats are so close that L's luff forces W to change course to avoid

contact

 

If a boat clear ahead by a few boat lengths comes up then that is not known as luffing and is therefore ok by the wording in this case.

 

You have some serious reading comprehension issues.

 

Note

 

so close can be a very long way away here.

it is merely close enough that when clear ahead changed course to windward if was no longer possible for W to keep clear by maintaining her course.

 

If at any point while you skipper was coming up you where on a collision course with W you where not meeting your obligations as stand on vessel

That clearly can't be correct. If skipper comes up to a course where a collision would occur in 45 minutes assuming the boats then held the same course then your statement applies. It is not as straight forward as you want to make it sound.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How can a Club Protest Panel possibly know the nuances of Marine Law and the ColRegs, The ajudication of Right of Way between boats racing is judged by protest panels interpreting the RRS which are quite different to ColRegs (see the discussion here on 'overtaking boats'} RRS quite different to ColRegs yet posters are trying to put RRS cases to ColRegs, it doesnt work.

 

Brisbane to Keppell SIs which has similar wording in a number of other events on the east coast of Australia.

1. RULES

1.1 The race will be governed by the rules as defined in the 2009 - 2012 Racing Rules of Sailing (RRS) of The International Sailing Federation (ISAF), the Special Regulations of Yachting Australia (YA), The Rules of IRC Parts 1, 2 and 3, except as any of these are modified by the Sailing Instructions.

1.2 Nothing in the Notice of Race or Sailing Instructions relieves a boat of her responsibility under civil law to comply with the International Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea or local regulations.

1.3 Between sunset and sunrise, when a boat cannot determine with certainty what tack the other boat is on, she shall keep clear of that boat. Competitors are reminded that part of the definition of “room” includes taking into account the existing conditions (including visibility).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

HardonThinking, who was it said that a good definition of stupidity was repeating the same question in the hope of getting a different answer?

 

Oh and TRT. Go and read Case 38. It specifically addresses the use of Colregs in protest hearings.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

HardonThinking, who was it said that a good definition of stupidity was repeating the same question in the hope of getting a different answer?

 

Oh and TRT. Go and read Case 38. It specifically addresses the use of Colregs in protest hearings.

Calling people stupid is a good definition of being an ass-hole. Use your critical reading skills douche and you will see that I didn't ask the same question. I said that the statement must be incorrect.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Oh and TRT. Go and read Case 38. It specifically addresses the use of Colregs in protest hearings.

 

I am familiar with case 38 obviously, however that is very reason race organisers should get rid of ColRegs from sailing instructions.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree with Hardon that the colregs are so ambiguous in this case that it's hard to know what to do. Being frozen out of making course adjustments while another boat is overtaking has to have a limit as to how far back the overtaking boat is. The safe distance has to (by a reason of safety) have something to do with the overtaking speed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The preamble to case 38 says:

 

IRPCAS right-of-way rules replace the rules of Part 2, they effectively prohibit a right-of-way boat from changing course towards
the boat obligated to keep clear when she is close to that boat. 

 

If you're ahead by a few boat lengths it would be hard to argue that turning a few degrees is changing course "toward" a boat behind. If you are a few boat lengths ahead and you change your course by say 10 degrees and the other boat has to change heading to accommodate your change then they will pass too close anyway.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

HardonThinking, who was it said that a good definition of stupidity was repeating the same question in the hope of getting a different answer?

Einstein said "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

 

einstein14.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The preamble to case 38 says:

 

IRPCAS right-of-way rules replace the rules of Part 2, they effectively prohibit a right-of-way boat from changing course towards
the boat obligated to keep clear when she is close to that boat. 

 

If you're ahead by a few boat lengths it would be hard to argue that turning a few degrees is changing course "toward" a boat behind. If you are a few boat lengths ahead and you change your course by say 10 degrees and the other boat has to change heading to accommodate your change then they will pass too close anyway.

 

Under ColRegs, the stand-on vessel should keep her course, it's hard to argue that turning a few degrees is OK no matter what. There is a big difference between "a few degrees" and 10 degrees. Even if the other boat is coming closer than you'd like, that in NO way justifies turning toward them.

 

I'm getting tired of people thinking they can/should drive their boats into a game of chicken. If you feel your manhood is threatened, take up ultimate fighting or something.

 

FB- Doug

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

OK, I got my answer in the case 38. Thanks

 

Case 38 states that:

 

Rule 17, which states in part, ‘Where one of two vessels is to keep out of the way, the other shall keep her course and

speed.’ It is this rule that prohibits the racing manoeuvre known as ‘luffing’ while the boats are so close that L’s luff forces W to change course to avoid

contact

 

If a boat clear ahead by a few boat lengths comes up then that is not known as luffing and is therefore ok by the wording in this case.

 

It also introduces the concept of "so close" which suggest that there is in fact a distance ahead where rule 17 is not active.

 

Wrong. A boat can be luffing when there isn't another boat in sight.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

OK, I got my answer in the case 38. Thanks

 

Case 38 states that:

 

Rule 17, which states in part, ‘Where one of two vessels is to keep out of the way, the other shall keep her course and

speed.’ It is this rule that prohibits the racing manoeuvre known as ‘luffing’ while the boats are so close that L’s luff forces W to change course to avoid

contact

 

If a boat clear ahead by a few boat lengths comes up then that is not known as luffing and is therefore ok by the wording in this case.

 

It also introduces the concept of "so close" which suggest that there is in fact a distance ahead where rule 17 is not active.

Wrong. A boat can be luffing when there isn't another boat in sight.

I'm assuming your referring to a boat going so close to the wind that their sails go inside out. Assume that the colreg example is on a reach or run and the boat 100 yards ahead comes up like from 140 degrees apparent to 120 degrees apparent. If there is no overlap in this case is that a luffing situation?

 

Luffing

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

OK, I got my answer in the case 38. Thanks

 

Case 38 states that:

 

Rule 17, which states in part, ‘Where one of two vessels is to keep out of the way, the other shall keep her course and

speed.’ It is this rule that prohibits the racing manoeuvre known as ‘luffing’ while the boats are so close that L’s luff forces W to change course to avoid

contact

 

If a boat clear ahead by a few boat lengths comes up then that is not known as luffing and is therefore ok by the wording in this case.

 

It also introduces the concept of "so close" which suggest that there is in fact a distance ahead where rule 17 is not active.

Wrong. A boat can be luffing when there isn't another boat in sight.

I'm assuming your referring to a boat going so close to the wind that their sails go inside out. Assume that the colreg example is on a reach or run and the boat 100 yards ahead comes up like from 140 degrees apparent to 120 degrees apparent. If there is no overlap in this case is that a luffing situation?

 

There is nothing in the RRS or Colregs about luffing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

OK, I got my answer in the case 38. Thanks

 

Case 38 states that:

 

Rule 17, which states in part, ‘Where one of two vessels is to keep out of the way, the other shall keep her course and

speed.’ It is this rule that prohibits the racing manoeuvre known as ‘luffing’ while the boats are so close that L’s luff forces W to change course to avoid

contact

 

If a boat clear ahead by a few boat lengths comes up then that is not known as luffing and is therefore ok by the wording in this case.

 

It also introduces the concept of "so close" which suggest that there is in fact a distance ahead where rule 17 is not active.

Wrong. A boat can be luffing when there isn't another boat in sight.

I'm assuming your referring to a boat going so close to the wind that their sails go inside out. Assume that the colreg example is on a reach or run and the boat 100 yards ahead comes up like from 140 degrees apparent to 120 degrees apparent. If there is no overlap in this case is that a luffing situation?

 

There is nothing in the RRS or Colregs about luffing.

But there was in the appeals case 38 where the colreg rules were applied. Case 38

 

Colreg Rule 17, which states in part, ‘Where one of two vessels is to keep out of the way, the other shall keep her course and

speed.’ It is this rule that prohibits the racing manoeuvre known as ‘luffing’ while the boats are so close that L’s luff forces W to change course to avoid

contact

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

But there was in the appeals case 38 where the colreg rules were applied. Case 38

 

Colreg Rule 17, which states in part, ‘Where one of two vessels is to keep out of the way, the other shall keep her course and

speed.’ It is this rule that prohibits the racing manoeuvre known as ‘luffing’ while the boats are so close that L’s luff forces W to change course to avoid

contact

 

You have just answered your own question in the OP.

 

And once again --- There is nothing in the RRS or Colregs about luffing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And at what separation distance must the stand-on boat start to maintain course and speed. A mile? A boat length? 60 seconds before overlapped. AT WHAT DISTANCE?

 

Depends on the conditions and the boats, wouldn't you think? A 40' cat doing 20 knots needs more distance to react than a 4knsb. A container ship needs even more....

 

There are many reasons not to use the ColRegs at night ....

 

 

The RRS ROW rules phail at night time. There is absolutely no sense to using rules that allow contact between boats with the reduced visibility and reduced ability to judge distance during night hours. Replacing them with ColReg ROW rules where contact is banned makes complete sense..

Agreed.

 

 

I am familiar with case 38 obviously, however that is very reason race organisers should get rid of ColRegs from sailing instructions.

 

Disagree. For one very simple reason - at night you cannot (often) tell a competitor from any other boat. You make allowances for non-racers during the day, by - get this - reverting to the Irpcas or your state boating right-of-way rules, which far as I know are the same as IRpcas. (Although I can't tell you how many racers I've seen yelling starboard or whathaveyou at confused and terrified cruisers...) Try yelling starboard at a passenger ferry, try defending your air in the middle of a channel when it's a freighter coming up your stern.

 

THIS is main reason why you cannot use the RRS at night.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
THIS is main reason why you cannot use the RRS at night

 

The RRS are for boats racing, nothing in the RRS absolves you from you obligation in the ColRegs to other boats. See the quoted SIs in post 30

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

it is really scary how hard some people are finding it to understand the concepts here

 

kind regards,

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Amazing. The concept of IRCPAS... Prevention of Collisions..... in fact if you are in any doubt as to who has the right of way, assume you do not have the ROW and take immediate and obvious avoiding action.. You are even permitted to contact other vessels to clarify intentions and actions if necessary.

 

Putting it bluntly ... you are not racing at night.. all you might be doing is keeping the boat sailing optimally.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

it is really scary how hard some people are finding it to understand the concepts here

 

kind regards,

If find it scary how many people here refuse to admit they don't know the answer to straight forward question and instead answer a different question, or answer with just an opinion and then insult your intelligence when you point out that your question wasn't answered. It's like listening to a political debate.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What exactly are you looking to find here, HardOn ? some new detergent to keep your panties from getting so bunched up ?

 

 

"You are completely right and correct in all you think, do and feel."

 

There you go.

 

 

 

 

 

Commonly listed in local sailing instructions here when racing in the dark is the statement; "No luffing between dusk & dawn."

 

You know why boats collide ? They get too close together.

 

Whether your local authority has a similar direction or not, if you threw a luff at a competitor in the dark you deserve to get flicked, it's a dick move. If you heated up while the trailing boat was well clear so as to not get rolled, that's probably just fine.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

it is really scary how hard some people are finding it to understand the concepts here

 

kind regards,

If find it scary how many people here refuse to admit they don't know the answer to straight forward question and instead answer a different question, or answer with just an opinion and then insult your intelligence when you point out that your question wasn't answered. It's like listening to a political debate.

 

the answer is simple

 

when your skipper changed course toward a course which increased the chance of collision that was in contravention of the collregs.

 

you don't like that answer, but that is what it is.

 

if you try to ask a question which allows you to act in a way that the collregs are specifically trying to stop you doing , then people will tell you what they think rather than answer the 'question' you are putting.

 

again simple concept here... you should have held you course as best you could.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

it is really scary how hard some people are finding it to understand the concepts here

 

kind regards,

If find it scary how many people here refuse to admit they don't know the answer to straight forward question and instead answer a different question, or answer with just an opinion and then insult your intelligence when you point out that your question wasn't answered. It's like listening to a political debate.

 

Have you thought that some of your questions are looking for a black and white answer when if fact this is about context and judgement. Again, the concept is that you need to do whatever it takes to avoid a collision. If in your judgement that's 10 boat lenghts, 2 boat lenghts... that's your call. Obviously, ANY alteration of course towards a converging course by either vessel is not taking avoiding action.

 

Last Friday night during an overnight race, a boat approached us from astern ---dead astern, faster. clearly an overtaking boat, but their course not changing and was too close for my liking. I believe they wanted to roll us. We cracked off a bit and sailed a course away from them at better speed. Once they were no longer overtaking boat and they were clear astern by about 20 boat lengths, we sailed a higher course to our mark. That was fair under the IRCPAS and there was no chance of a collision. There might have been a close call if as stand on vessel, we held the original course and speed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

it is really scary how hard some people are finding it to understand the concepts here

 

kind regards,

+1

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

comprehension --- ( 101 ) ??????? wtf !

 

 

 

or not.

 

 

 

if a plane flies close to the ground it has probably already crashed

 

 

 

safe speed

 

 

 

keep clear

 

 

 

people ( or trolls ? ) want these parameters defined by measurements ???

 

 

try reading and understanding, first

 

 

 

THEN you will know how to ask your question

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Amazing. The concept of IRCPAS... Prevention of Collisions..... in fact if you are in any doubt as to who has the right of way, assume you do not have the ROW and take immediate and obvious avoiding action.. You are even permitted to contact other vessels to clarify intentions and actions if necessary.

 

Putting it bluntly ... you are not racing at night.. all you might be doing is keeping the boat sailing optimally.

 

I can't buy into the idea that you aren't racing at night. Maybe you're not but a lot of other boats on the course will be. Do the conditions factor into decision making, of course, but that certainly doesn't preclude doing anything more than keeping the boat trimmed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Amazing. The concept of IRCPAS... Prevention of Collisions..... in fact if you are in any doubt as to who has the right of way, assume you do not have the ROW and take immediate and obvious avoiding action.. You are even permitted to contact other vessels to clarify intentions and actions if necessary.

 

Putting it bluntly ... you are not racing at night.. all you might be doing is keeping the boat sailing optimally.

 

I can't buy into the idea that you aren't racing at night. Maybe you're not but a lot of other boats on the course will be. Do the conditions factor into decision making, of course, but that certainly doesn't preclude doing anything more than keeping the boat trimmed.

 

What I mean by that comment is if you're "racing" under IRPCAS you have very limited tactical boat-on-boat options... and that the "racing" aspect is sailing optimally around the course from boat handling to Nav and weather routing.

I put it that way because it seemed that the OP couldn't seem to grasp that boat-on-boat isn't permissible e.g. heading up to stop getting rolled.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Can't help but to shake my head at this after all the flaming I got for writing last year that the Colregs apply at all times.

JS that was about the only time you and me ever agreed - but this thread is really scary for sall the wrong reasons!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I just read Case 38. For the life of me I can not understand how anyone could interpret that to say that ColRegs should not be used at night. What it actually said was that the ROW rules of ColRegs did apply, were interpreted by W, the original protest committee and the appeals committee properly.

 

Racers have trouble understanding that ColRegs are designed solely on safety. They do not have "tactical" positions in them and strive to keep boats from having courses that provide the opportunity for collision. A boat luffing is simply a contrary idea to assuring that boats do not collide.

 

Clearly it supports allowing ColRegs to replace RRS Section 2.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Amazing. The concept of IRCPAS... Prevention of Collisions..... in fact if you are in any doubt as to who has the right of way, assume you do not have the ROW and take immediate and obvious avoiding action.. You are even permitted to contact other vessels to clarify intentions and actions if necessary.

 

Putting it bluntly ... you are not racing at night.. all you might be doing is keeping the boat sailing optimally.

 

I can't buy into the idea that you aren't racing at night. Maybe you're not but a lot of other boats on the course will be. Do the conditions factor into decision making, of course, but that certainly doesn't preclude doing anything more than keeping the boat trimmed.

 

What I mean by that comment is if you're "racing" under IRPCAS you have very limited tactical boat-on-boat options... and that the "racing" aspect is sailing optimally around the course from boat handling to Nav and weather routing.

I put it that way because it seemed that the OP couldn't seem to grasp that boat-on-boat isn't permissible e.g. heading up to stop getting rolled.

 

Got it, thanks for the clarification. I agree with that, which is probably why I'm anti COLREGs at night.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Amazing. The concept of IRCPAS... Prevention of Collisions..... in fact if you are in any doubt as to who has the right of way, assume you do not have the ROW and take immediate and obvious avoiding action.. You are even permitted to contact other vessels to clarify intentions and actions if necessary.

 

Putting it bluntly ... you are not racing at night.. all you might be doing is keeping the boat sailing optimally.

 

I can't buy into the idea that you aren't racing at night. Maybe you're not but a lot of other boats on the course will be. Do the conditions factor into decision making, of course, but that certainly doesn't preclude doing anything more than keeping the boat trimmed.

 

What I mean by that comment is if you're "racing" under IRPCAS you have very limited tactical boat-on-boat options... and that the "racing" aspect is sailing optimally around the course from boat handling to Nav and weather routing.

I put it that way because it seemed that the OP couldn't seem to grasp that boat-on-boat isn't permissible e.g. heading up to stop getting rolled.

 

Got it, thanks for the clarification. I agree with that, which is probably why I'm anti COLREGs at night.

 

Crush,

If there were only race boats out there at night, there could be a case for using the RRS all the time. The problem is, we share the planet with other pesky, non-racing, night-time boaters. What a cheek they have buggering up the racing :rolleyes:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One other thing that amazes me are the number skippers that don't understand the right use of navigation lights, which are the primary means of identifying types of vessels, and trying to determine who has right of way.

You get a number of geniuses using their all around anchor lights as a windex light, others using a steaming light under sail to light up the jib luff, mounting their lights on a bow pulpit on sprit boats where the chute masks the lights, ... and some trying to be clever and switching between masthead tri-light and deck level lights to confuse the opposition. This latter move can cause more confusion to others (and non racers) that might be trying to maintain a constant watch on that boat, checking its bearing etc. and then suddenly finding they can't see a masthead trilight any more (or vice versa) but some other boat??? It isn't really clever, smart or cool but some think that's cunning night racing dude !! I think these kinds of issues seem to be more prevalent and it wouldn't hurt for SI's to specifically mention that they are contrary to the intent of IRPCAS.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As a practical matter, I don't see it affecting the racing very much.

 

Distance races are usually under some type of rating or handicap, and so where possible, you want to minimize the amount of time you spend screwing with other boats.

 

mostly, we have faster boats passing slower boats, and the best thing to do, is let them go!

 

also, it's one thing to try and hold off another boat on a W/L course, where ultimately all the boats have to converge at a mark that might be 1/2 a mile away..., and another thing to try an do it when the next mark is 10 or 20 miles away...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

it is really scary how hard some people are finding it to understand the concepts here

 

kind regards,

If find it scary how many people here refuse to admit they don't know the answer to straight forward question and instead answer a different question, or answer with just an opinion and then insult your intelligence when you point out that your question wasn't answered. It's like listening to a political debate.

 

the answer is simple

 

when your skipper changed course toward a course which increased the chance of collision that was in contravention of the collregs.

 

you don't like that answer, but that is what it is.

 

if you try to ask a question which allows you to act in a way that the collregs are specifically trying to stop you doing , then people will tell you what they think rather than answer the 'question' you are putting.

 

again simple concept here... you should have held you course as best you could.

The question I have asked and that I would like an answer to is not one that you answered. The question is "at what distance between a boat overtaking and a boat being over taken is the boat in front required to hold their course"? Your answer should be in seconds or meters please and be justified by specific text in the colregs not just your good judgment.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

it is really scary how hard some people are finding it to understand the concepts here

 

kind regards,

If find it scary how many people here refuse to admit they don't know the answer to straight forward question and instead answer a different question, or answer with just an opinion and then insult your intelligence when you point out that your question wasn't answered. It's like listening to a political debate.

 

the answer is simple

 

when your skipper changed course toward a course which increased the chance of collision that was in contravention of the collregs.

 

you don't like that answer, but that is what it is.

 

if you try to ask a question which allows you to act in a way that the collregs are specifically trying to stop you doing , then people will tell you what they think rather than answer the 'question' you are putting.

 

again simple concept here... you should have held you course as best you could.

The question I have asked and that I would like an answer to is not one that you answered. The question is "at what distance between a boat overtaking and a boat being over taken is the boat in front required to hold their course"? Your answer should be in seconds or meters please and be justified by specific text in the colregs not just your good judgment.

 

Your question is impossible to answer solely based on colregs -- we need to know the prior separation of the boats, their relative closing speed, and how quick your boat and crew are at making maneuvers while staying out of the way of the overtaking boat -- yes, you read that right: staying out of the way of the overtaking boat! You are the stand-on boat, the over-taking boat is the keep-clear boat -- they have to keep clear of you, but you have to stay out of their way in their doing so. There is no fine line demarcation spelled out in the rules. If they are far enough away, and the closing speed slow enough, that you can change your course and get out of their way without any possibility that they will have to alter their course to avoid running into you, then go for it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The discussion about using ColRegs is interesting especially when posters here are talking about taking cases to the 'room' and quoting RRS cases. If you think a boat has broken a ColReg, a Club's Protest Panel have no juristiction over these rules. A Protest Panel can only ajudicate on the Racing Rules of Sailing. A Col Reg issue would need to be taken to court with marine lawyers. Once the SIs state ColRegs to used at night, the organising authority have given away the opportunity for boats to protest over incidents during the hours of darkness.

 

There are many reasons not to use the ColRegs at night when you go through them, including but not limted to, rounding marks, overtaking boats, sailing in shipping channels etc. The VOR realised these problems a few races a go and got rid of the requirement. Subsequently a number of race organisers have also decided ColRegs are unworkable whilst racing. This a hangover from a few rule books ago when a boat could "luff as she pleases" to protect herselve from being overtaken. This no longer the case and a boat must give room to the other boat, therefore no need to revert to ColRegs at night.

 

But the Colregs don't just talk about ROW, when you adhere to the Colregs at night, you are also adhering to light and sound signals, which you would have to adhere to anyway. Are you sure that the PC has thrown out their adjudication? If using the Colregs is written into the SI's, doesn't that de facto make the colregs part of the RRS, at least for the duration of time that they are in effect on the water? I don't know - I've rarely been close enough in an overnight race to worry about whether or not I was racing tactically, unfortunately, but it would seem that you can still adjudicate these cases. I'd hate to see a "protest" at midnight end up in a maritime court of law.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The question gets really strange at a mark rounding. If a boat clear ahead is required to hold their course by the colregs then how can they round a mark in front of an overtaking boat. The colregs would require the boat in front to hold their course and sail past the mark.

 

The definition of overtaking is very very broad as defined by the colregs.

 

13) 'Overtaking' means approaching another vessel at more than 22.5 degrees abaft her beam.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

it is really scary how hard some people are finding it to understand the concepts here

 

kind regards,

If find it scary how many people here refuse to admit they don't know the answer to straight forward question and instead answer a different question, or answer with just an opinion and then insult your intelligence when you point out that your question wasn't answered. It's like listening to a political debate.

 

the answer is simple

 

when your skipper changed course toward a course which increased the chance of collision that was in contravention of the collregs.

 

you don't like that answer, but that is what it is.

 

if you try to ask a question which allows you to act in a way that the collregs are specifically trying to stop you doing , then people will tell you what they think rather than answer the 'question' you are putting.

 

again simple concept here... you should have held you course as best you could.

The question I have asked and that I would like an answer to is not one that you answered. The question is "at what distance between a boat overtaking and a boat being over taken is the boat in front required to hold their course"? Your answer should be in seconds or meters please and be justified by specific text in the colregs not just your good judgment.

 

Your question is impossible to answer solely based on colregs -- we need to know the prior separation of the boats, their relative closing speed, and how quick your boat and crew are at making maneuvers while staying out of the way of the overtaking boat -- yes, you read that right: staying out of the way of the overtaking boat! You are the stand-on boat, the over-taking boat is the keep-clear boat -- they have to keep clear of you, but you have to stay out of their way in their doing so. There is no fine line demarcation spelled out in the rules. If they are far enough away, and the closing speed slow enough, that you can change your course and get out of their way without any possibility that they will have to alter their course to avoid running into you, then go for it.

OK, assume the boats are named Clearahead and Overtaking. They are 200 meters apart and Overtaking is closing on Clearahead at .5 m/sec meaning that in 6 minutes they will be overlapped. Clearahead is adjusting to wind direction changes as they occur.

 

Based on this information and the colregs is Clearahead breaking Rule 13 by not holding their course? Please don't answer by your seat of the pants judgement, offer specific rule citations.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Your question is impossible to answer solely based on colregs -- we need to know the prior separation of the boats, their relative closing speed, and how quick your boat and crew are at making maneuvers while staying out of the way of the overtaking boat -

...

OK, assume the boats are named Clearahead and Overtaking. They are 200 meters apart and Overtaking is closing on Clearahead at .5 m/sec meaning that in 6 minutes they will be overlapped. Clearahead is adjusting to wind direction changes as they occur.

 

Based on this information and the colregs is Clearahead breaking Rule 13 by not holding their course? Please don't answer by your seat of the pants judgement, offer specific rule citations.

 

How strong is the wind? What is the sea state? What is the size of the boats rudders relative to their lateral plane?

 

It all comes down to whether the give-way vessel will have to alter course further to avoid the stand-on vessel

 

If the give-way vessel has not altered course, or if the stand-on vessels change of course will take them -further- apart, then this is unlikely to be considered an incident.

 

OTOH racing sailors are often surprised at how far apart professional mariners stay when in open water. If you pass within 100 yards of a commercial vessel when not forced, they think you're an idiot... and you probably are!

 

FB- Doug

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Your question is impossible to answer solely based on colregs -- we need to know the prior separation of the boats, their relative closing speed, and how quick your boat and crew are at making maneuvers while staying out of the way of the overtaking boat -

...

OK, assume the boats are named Clearahead and Overtaking. They are 200 meters apart and Overtaking is closing on Clearahead at .5 m/sec meaning that in 6 minutes they will be overlapped. Clearahead is adjusting to wind direction changes as they occur.

 

Based on this information and the colregs is Clearahead breaking Rule 13 by not holding their course? Please don't answer by your seat of the pants judgement, offer specific rule citations.

 

How strong is the wind? What is the sea state? What is the size of the boats rudders relative to their lateral plane?

 

It all comes down to whether the give-way vessel will have to alter course further to avoid the stand-on vessel

 

If the give-way vessel has not altered course, or if the stand-on vessels change of course will take them -further- apart, then this is unlikely to be considered an incident.

 

OTOH racing sailors are often surprised at how far apart professional mariners stay when in open water. If you pass within 100 yards of a commercial vessel when not forced, they think you're an idiot... and you probably are!

 

FB- Doug

Oh and whether the skipper has the auto pilot on and is down below shagging the foredeck person too. Come on. I've been a judge in many protests and the "the boat's rudders relative to their lateral plane" has never come up. You're really pulling straws out your ass now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Crush,

If there were only race boats out there at night, there could be a case for using the RRS all the time. The problem is, we share the planet with other pesky, non-racing, night-time boaters. What a cheek they have buggering up the racing :rolleyes:

 

I'm only against them in as much as an RC would want to use them to govern two boats currently racing between dusk and dawn, which is what I understood this thread to be about.

 

Between a boat racing and one not racing, they are still the rules of the road

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Crush,

If there were only race boats out there at night, there could be a case for using the RRS all the time. The problem is, we share the planet with other pesky, non-racing, night-time boaters. What a cheek they have buggering up the racing :rolleyes:

 

I'm only against them in as much as an RC would want to use them to govern two boats currently racing between dusk and dawn, which is what I understood this thread to be about.

 

Between a boat racing and one not racing, they are still the rules of the road

 

At night you may not be able to distinguish a sailboat not racing from one that is.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Can't help but to shake my head at this after all the flaming I got for writing last year that the Colregs apply at all times.

JS that was about the only time you and me ever agreed - but this thread is really scary for sall the wrong reasons!

How did you get on with your recent "road rules" issue with the Etchells in NSW?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To Hard On Whatever...... you seem to be pedantically looking for absolutes when in fact the distance you keep asking for is a judgement call. You asked for a citation, well here's one that pretty much says absolutes are irrelevant, what counts is your overriding responsibility if there is any doubt, under Rule 2 from colregs:

b. In construing and complying with these Rules due regard shall be had to all dangers of navigation and collision and to any special circumstances, including the limitations of the vessels involved, which may make a departure from these Rules necessary to avoid immediate danger.

 

It's common sense, even at mark roundings with respect to the overriding principle for both boats to make every effort to avoid each other particularly if there's any doubt about who should or shouldn't do what..

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsb5W0m3S-Y

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

it is really scary how hard some people are finding it to understand the concepts here

 

kind regards,

If find it scary how many people here refuse to admit they don't know the answer to straight forward question and instead answer a different question, or answer with just an opinion and then insult your intelligence when you point out that your question wasn't answered. It's like listening to a political debate.

 

the answer is simple

 

when your skipper changed course toward a course which increased the chance of collision that was in contravention of the collregs.

 

you don't like that answer, but that is what it is.

 

if you try to ask a question which allows you to act in a way that the collregs are specifically trying to stop you doing , then people will tell you what they think rather than answer the 'question' you are putting.

 

again simple concept here... you should have held you course as best you could.

The question I have asked and that I would like an answer to is not one that you answered. The question is "at what distance between a boat overtaking and a boat being over taken is the boat in front required to hold their course"? Your answer should be in seconds or meters please and be justified by specific text in the colregs not just your good judgment.

 

And therein lies the problem. The coleregs are situational and require the use of reasonable judgement given size, relative speed, manuverablitly, conditions, etc. When they begin to apply is completely subjective to the circumstances. Looking for a more definitive answer without defining all the variables is simply a waste of time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

it is really scary how hard some people are finding it to understand the concepts here

 

kind regards,

If find it scary how many people here refuse to admit they don't know the answer to straight forward question and instead answer a different question, or answer with just an opinion and then insult your intelligence when you point out that your question wasn't answered. It's like listening to a political debate.

 

the answer is simple

 

when your skipper changed course toward a course which increased the chance of collision that was in contravention of the collregs.

 

you don't like that answer, but that is what it is.

 

if you try to ask a question which allows you to act in a way that the collregs are specifically trying to stop you doing , then people will tell you what they think rather than answer the 'question' you are putting.

 

again simple concept here... you should have held you course as best you could.

The question I have asked and that I would like an answer to is not one that you answered. The question is "at what distance between a boat overtaking and a boat being over taken is the boat in front required to hold their course"? Your answer should be in seconds or meters please and be justified by specific text in the colregs not just your good judgment.

 

And therein lies the problem. The coleregs are situational and require the use of reasonable judgement given size, relative speed, manuverablitly, conditions, etc. When they begin to apply is completely subjective to the circumstances. Looking for a more definitive answer without defining all the variables is simply a waste of time.

You just made that part up. There is no discussion or language in the colregs like that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To Hard On Whatever...... you seem to be pedantically looking for absolutes when in fact the distance you keep asking for is a judgement call. You asked for a citation, well here's one that pretty much says absolutes are irrelevant, what counts is your overriding responsibility if there is any doubt, under Rule 2 from colregs:

b. In construing and complying with these Rules due regard shall be had to all dangers of navigation and collision and to any special circumstances, including the limitations of the vessels involved, which may make a departure from these Rules necessary to avoid immediate danger.

 

It's common sense, even at mark roundings with respect to the overriding principle for both boats to make every effort to avoid each other particularly if there's any doubt about who should or shouldn't do what..

My question is not directed to a circumstance where there is any possibility of a collision. I mean a circumstance where there is absolutely ZERO chance of a collision by the judgement of the most conservative eye. In that circumstance there can still be the possibility of a violation of rule 13 of the colregs by a strict interpretation of that rule which could be used by a competitor to intimidate another competitor.

 

It's quite clear to just about everybody here that you luffed an overtaking boat at night, and were subsequently disqualified, and you cannot accept that you were in the wrong.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To Hard On Whatever...... you seem to be pedantically looking for absolutes when in fact the distance you keep asking for is a judgement call. You asked for a citation, well here's one that pretty much says absolutes are irrelevant, what counts is your overriding responsibility if there is any doubt, under Rule 2 from colregs:

b. In construing and complying with these Rules due regard shall be had to all dangers of navigation and collision and to any special circumstances, including the limitations of the vessels involved, which may make a departure from these Rules necessary to avoid immediate danger.

 

It's common sense, even at mark roundings with respect to the overriding principle for both boats to make every effort to avoid each other particularly if there's any doubt about who should or shouldn't do what..

 

My question is not directed to a circumstance where there is any possibility of a collision. I mean a circumstance where there is absolutely ZERO chance of an unavoidable collision by the judgement of the most conservative eye. In that circumstance there can still be the possibility of a violation of rule 13 of the colregs by a strict interpretation of that rule which could be used by a competitor to intimidate another competitor.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To Hard On Whatever...... you seem to be pedantically looking for absolutes when in fact the distance you keep asking for is a judgement call. You asked for a citation, well here's one that pretty much says absolutes are irrelevant, what counts is your overriding responsibility if there is any doubt, under Rule 2 from colregs:

b. In construing and complying with these Rules due regard shall be had to all dangers of navigation and collision and to any special circumstances, including the limitations of the vessels involved, which may make a departure from these Rules necessary to avoid immediate danger.

 

It's common sense, even at mark roundings with respect to the overriding principle for both boats to make every effort to avoid each other particularly if there's any doubt about who should or shouldn't do what..

My question is not directed to a circumstance where there is any possibility of a collision. I mean a circumstance where there is absolutely ZERO chance of a collision by the judgement of the most conservative eye. In that circumstance there can still be the possibility of a violation of rule 13 of the colregs by a strict interpretation of that rule which could be used by a competitor to intimidate another competitor.

 

It's quite clear to just about everybody here that you luffed an overtaking boat at night, and were subsequently disqualified, and you cannot accept that you were in the wrong.

That is absolutely a false statement! I have not been on a boat in the last 5 years that has been protested for anything. And, if you were to have read the example question there was no luffing involved at all. If you can't answer the question that was asked why do you need to turn to personal attacks?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Your question is impossible to answer solely based on colregs --

 

 

OK, assume the boats are named Clearahead and Overtaking. They are 200 meters apart and Overtaking is closing on Clearahead at .5 m/sec meaning that in 6 minutes they will be overlapped. Clearahead is adjusting to wind direction changes as they occur.

 

 

My question is not directed to a circumstance where there is any possibility of a collision. I mean a circumstance where there is absolutely ZERO chance of an unavoidable collision by the judgement of the most conservative eye. In that circumstance there can still be the possibility of a violation of rule 13 of the colregs by a strict interpretation of that rule which could be used by a competitor to intimidate another competitor.

 

From reading those rules and the one appeals case cited here I would agree that the OP has a valid point. The colregs are not specific enough for sailboats on a race course with marks and the rules seem to only contemplate power boats going point to point or in a channel.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To Hard On Whatever...... you seem to be pedantically looking for absolutes when in fact the distance you keep asking for is a judgement call. You asked for a citation, well here's one that pretty much says absolutes are irrelevant, what counts is your overriding responsibility if there is any doubt, under Rule 2 from colregs:

b. In construing and complying with these Rules due regard shall be had to all dangers of navigation and collision and to any special circumstances, including the limitations of the vessels involved, which may make a departure from these Rules necessary to avoid immediate danger.

 

It's common sense, even at mark roundings with respect to the overriding principle for both boats to make every effort to avoid each other particularly if there's any doubt about who should or shouldn't do what..

My question is not directed to a circumstance where there is any possibility of a collision. I mean a circumstance where there is absolutely ZERO chance of a collision by the judgement of the most conservative eye. In that circumstance there can still be the possibility of a violation of rule 13 of the colregs by a strict interpretation of that rule which could be used by a competitor to intimidate another competitor.

 

It's quite clear to just about everybody here that you luffed an overtaking boat at night, and were subsequently disqualified, and you cannot accept that you were in the wrong.

That is absolutely a false statement! I have not been on a boat in the last 5 years that has been protested for anything. And, if you were to have read the example question there was no luffing involved at all. If you can't answer the question that was asked why do you need to turn to personal attacks?

Not a personal attack to point out the obvious. The fact that you have had several correct answers but try and find all sorts of ways to get around those answers is proof enough that you were involved in a situation with another boat at night and don't want to accept the PC decision.

 

Ever heard the words "methinks he doth protest too much"?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Your question is impossible to answer solely based on colregs --

 

 

OK, assume the boats are named Clearahead and Overtaking. They are 200 meters apart and Overtaking is closing on Clearahead at .5 m/sec meaning that in 6 minutes they will be overlapped. Clearahead is adjusting to wind direction changes as they occur.

 

 

My question is not directed to a circumstance where there is any possibility of a collision. I mean a circumstance where there is absolutely ZERO chance of an unavoidable collision by the judgement of the most conservative eye. In that circumstance there can still be the possibility of a violation of rule 13 of the colregs by a strict interpretation of that rule which could be used by a competitor to intimidate another competitor.

 

From reading those rules and the one appeals case cited here I would agree that the OP has a valid point. The colregs are not specific enough for sailboats on a race course with marks and the rules seem to only contemplate power boats going point to point or in a channel.

The OP had absolutely nothing to do with mark roundings or channels.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites