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    • UnderDawg

      A Few Simple Rules   05/22/2017

      Sailing Anarchy is a very lightly moderated site. This is by design, to afford a more free atmosphere for discussion. There are plenty of sailing forums you can go to where swearing isn't allowed, confrontation is squelched and, and you can have a moderator finger-wag at you for your attitude. SA tries to avoid that and allow for more adult behavior without moderators editing your posts and whacking knuckles with rulers. We don't have a long list of published "thou shalt nots" either, and this is by design. Too many absolute rules paints us into too many corners. So check the Terms of Service - there IS language there about certain types of behavior that is not permitted. We interpret that lightly and permit a lot of latitude, but we DO reserve the right to take action when something is too extreme to tolerate (too racist, graphic, violent, misogynistic, etc.). Yes, that is subjective, but it allows us discretion. Avoiding a laundry list of rules allows for freedom; don't abuse it. However there ARE a few basic rules that will earn you a suspension, and apparently a brief refresher is in order. 1) Allegations of pedophilia - there is no tolerance for this. So if you make allegations, jokes, innuendo or suggestions about child molestation, child pornography, abuse or inappropriate behavior with minors etc. about someone on this board you will get a time out. This is pretty much automatic; this behavior can have real world effect and is not acceptable. Obviously the subject is not banned when discussion of it is apropos, e.g. talking about an item in the news for instance. But allegations or references directed at or about another poster is verboten. 2) Outing people - providing real world identifiable information about users on the forums who prefer to remain anonymous. Yes, some of us post with our real names - not a problem to use them. However many do NOT, and if you find out someone's name keep it to yourself, first or last. This also goes for other identifying information too - employer information etc. You don't need too many pieces of data to figure out who someone really is these days. Depending on severity you might get anything from a scolding to a suspension - so don't do it. I know it can be confusing sometimes for newcomers, as SA has been around almost twenty years and there are some people that throw their real names around and their current Display Name may not match the name they have out in the public. But if in doubt, you don't want to accidentally out some one so use caution, even if it's a personal friend of yours in real life. 3) Posting While Suspended - If you've earned a timeout (these are fairly rare and hard to get), please observe the suspension. If you create a new account (a "Sock Puppet") and return to the forums to post with it before your suspension is up you WILL get more time added to your original suspension and lose your Socks. This behavior may result a permanent ban, since it shows you have zero respect for the few rules we have and the moderating team that is tasked with supporting them. Check the Terms of Service you agreed to; they apply to the individual agreeing, not the account you created, so don't try to Sea Lawyer us if you get caught. Just don't do it. Those are the three that will almost certainly get you into some trouble. IF YOU SEE SOMEONE DO ONE OF THESE THINGS, please do the following: Refrain from quoting the offending text, it makes the thread cleanup a pain in the rear Press the Report button; it is by far the best way to notify Admins as we will get e-mails. Calling out for Admins in the middle of threads, sending us PM's, etc. - there is no guarantee we will get those in a timely fashion. There are multiple Moderators in multiple time zones around the world, and anyone one of us can handle the Report and all of us will be notified about it. But if you PM one Mod directly and he's off line, the problem will get dealt with much more slowly. Other behaviors that you might want to think twice before doing include: Intentionally disrupting threads and discussions repeatedly. Off topic/content free trolling in threads to disrupt dialog Stalking users around the forums with the intent to disrupt content and discussion Repeated posting of overly graphic or scatological porn content. There are plenty web sites for you to get your freak on, don't do it here. And a brief note to Newbies... No, we will not ban people or censor them for dropping F-bombs on you, using foul language, etc. so please don't report it when one of our members gives you a greeting you may find shocking. We do our best not to censor content here and playing swearword police is not in our job descriptions. Sailing Anarchy is more like a bar than a classroom, so handle it like you would meeting someone a little coarse - don't look for the teacher. Thanks.

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casc27

Aground at the Farallones

328 posts in this topic

I've had some tough conversations with the wife this weekend - and I'm pretty sure one of my crew will never go out the gate again. All very understandable and to be respected.

Now ain't the time for "could'a/would'a/should'a" when none of us has gotten our arms all the way 'round all this yet. I think it would be preferable to sit back and think about all this a bit and leave the speculation for a later time, preferably in a separate thread. For now, we all need to lick our wounds and take care of each other, and particularly take care of the families and friends. For now, God bless our brothers and our sister.

I Agree. I know this is SA and we all appreciate the open discussion forum that this is but this may be the place for some form of convention: a week of mourning prior to posts regarding fault analysis which should be in a separate thread.

my two bits.

Prayers and Condolences ,

Jaya

I respect your perspective and right to do as you wish.

Please likewise respect my right to a different perspective and action.

Criticizing others here is neither helpful nor useful.

My $0.02.

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FYI. The USCGC Sockeye appears, from the AIS web page, to be back out in the Gulf of the Farallons, this afternoon (Apr 16 1309 hrs). North of the shipping channel, toward Drakes Bay. Don't know if it is related.

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L38 link

 

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

As it becomes clear that nothing short of a miracle could deliver the missing crew to safety, many within the Bay Area sailing community are numb with grief as they digest the severity of this tragedy. Meanwhile, it has become a national news story, inspiring a great deal of Monday morning quarterbacking from both sailors and non-sailors alike about what the stricken crew and rescuers might have or should have done. While everyone is entitled to their own opinion, it appears that many of the loudest voices in such critiques are apparently those of people who know nothing about offshore racing, or the motivations of those who choose to participate in it. So rather than critiquing, we would encourage all who are following this sad story to join us in mourning the loss of our fellow sailors, and offering sincere condolences to their friends and families.

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Thoughts and prayers for Crew, family and friends of the sailors lost - and also for the burden of the survivors. Our hearts bleed for all of you.

 

I suspect that many of us here in the midwest who sailed last summer's Chicago Mac and witnessed the evil of the night that took Mark and Suzanne on Wingnuts are having some bad flashbacks right now. We really can feel your pain.

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L38 link

 

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

As it becomes clear that nothing short of a miracle could deliver the missing crew to safety, many within the Bay Area sailing community are numb with grief as they digest the severity of this tragedy. Meanwhile, it has become a national news story, inspiring a great deal of Monday morning quarterbacking from both sailors and non-sailors alike about what the stricken crew and rescuers might have or should have done. While everyone is entitled to their own opinion, it appears that many of the loudest voices in such critiques are apparently those of people who know nothing about offshore racing, or the motivations of those who choose to participate in it. So rather than critiquing, we would encourage all who are following this sad story to join us in mourning the loss of our fellow sailors, and offering sincere condolences to their friends and families.

 

 

wow - the boat seems mostly intact in that photo.

 

I imagined it smashed to pieces by now...

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I can't even begin to think how terrifying this must have been, it just sounds like it all happened so fast.

 

Condolences to all the loved ones.

 

Rest in Peace to those lost.

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What a heartbreaking story. My condolences to all involved. I kept reading the updates hoping for a miracle.

 

Dave

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L38 link

 

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

As it becomes clear that nothing short of a miracle could deliver the missing crew to safety, many within the Bay Area sailing community are numb with grief as they digest the severity of this tragedy. Meanwhile, it has become a national news story, inspiring a great deal of Monday morning quarterbacking from both sailors and non-sailors alike about what the stricken crew and rescuers might have or should have done. While everyone is entitled to their own opinion, it appears that many of the loudest voices in such critiques are apparently those of people who know nothing about offshore racing, or the motivations of those who choose to participate in it. So rather than critiquing, we would encourage all who are following this sad story to join us in mourning the loss of our fellow sailors, and offering sincere condolences to their friends and families.

 

 

wow - the boat seems mostly intact in that photo.

 

I imagined it smashed to pieces by now...

That's the view we had as we passed the island; the boat was neither rocking nor did I see any waves striking her. I appeared to me that the boat had been picked up by a monstrous wave and hurled ashore, beyond the reach of the others.

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First thing I did earlier when I got home from school was to check out this thread, a stark reminder for me at the start of a new season.

 

Was very upset but the whole accident, and my heart goes out to the families of the deceased and missing, but words can never be enough in a horrible tragedy like this.

 

Fair winds and following seas

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L38 link

 

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

As it becomes clear that nothing short of a miracle could deliver the missing crew to safety, many within the Bay Area sailing community are numb with grief as they digest the severity of this tragedy. Meanwhile, it has become a national news story, inspiring a great deal of Monday morning quarterbacking from both sailors and non-sailors alike about what the stricken crew and rescuers might have or should have done. While everyone is entitled to their own opinion, it appears that many of the loudest voices in such critiques are apparently those of people who know nothing about offshore racing, or the motivations of those who choose to participate in it. So rather than critiquing, we would encourage all who are following this sad story to join us in mourning the loss of our fellow sailors, and offering sincere condolences to their friends and families.

wow - the boat seems mostly intact in that photo.

I imagined it smashed to pieces by now...

That's the view we had as we passed the island; the boat was neither rocking nor did I see any waves striking her. I appeared to me that the boat had been picked up by a monstrous wave and hurled ashore, beyond the reach of the others.

 

When waves refract it provides the opportunity to combine- in addition to the wind and swell combinations

 

Here you can see the waves being bent by points of land link

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I wrote up the race and accident as we saw it here.

 

http://neversealand....arallones-2012/

 

If you look at our track at time 4:17PM you can see how a breaking wave on our port quarter caused us to spin like a top, way after we passed the islands.

 

Thanks for sharing this. Glad you all are ok Pogen and good on you to call friends / family to say you were ok upon your return. I know you won't ever forget that day, nor will the rest of us.

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My condolences to the families and friends of those lost and to all the SF sailing community.

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I suppose this is as good a place as any to pass this along. A friend of mine who works with the Bay of the Farallones says the following:

 

"I have gotten the word out to our Beachwatch folks who survey much of

 

that coastline from pt reyes to South of Ano Nuevo to keep eyes peeled for

 

any sign or personal gear. Same w the daily whale tour boats and the

 

coastal sightseeing flights (all friends). There are still a lot of

 

eyes looking. All are instructed to call USCG alameda, local law enforcement or

 

our FMSA emergency response line for us to relay to same."

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Blue Skies and a Stiff Breeze...

 

SGA

---

 

"We are tied to the ocean. And when we go back to the sea, whether it is to sail or to watch - we are going back from whence we came."

 

John F. Kennedy

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Heard a rumor that other boats saw it happening and sailed on because "wasn't much we could do in that sea state"

 

I would think drop the sails and start the momo and try to get eyes on any floaters until help could come.

 

 

 

Just sailed on ????????

 

 

 

 

WTF? Speculation on rumors is not constructive at this point.

More than rumer, Quotation marks are direct quote

 

 

"SHUT IT" Did you see my quotes?

 

This is the "Care and Condolences Thread" The speculate, blame, and know it all thread will come, or has already I am sure. Remember that friends and loved ones are here. Take the this and that happened somewhere else, even if you "know" it. This is not the forum for that.

 

I know this is SA and it is not REQUIRED

 

- BUT HAVE SOME COURTESY! HEADS!

 

--- not just aimed a re-psycled, many of you are doing it. His was mild.

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My heart goes out to the families and friends.

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This is the "Care and Condolences Thread" The speculate, blame, and know it all thread will come, or has already I am sure. Remember that friends and loved ones are here. Take the this and that happened somewhere else, even if you "know" it. This is not the forum for that.

I know this is SA and it is not REQUIRED

- BUT HAVE SOME COURTESY! HEADS!

--- not just aimed a re-psycled, many of you are doing it. His was mild.

It's actually a general discussion thread, and lecturing of other posters isn't helpful.

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I suppose this is as good a place as any to pass this along. A friend of mine who works with the Bay of the Farallones says the following:

 

"I have gotten the word out to our Beachwatch folks who survey much of

 

that coastline from pt reyes to South of Ano Nuevo to keep eyes peeled for

 

any sign or personal gear. Same w the daily whale tour boats and the

 

coastal sightseeing flights (all friends). There are still a lot of

 

eyes looking. All are instructed to call USCG alameda, local law enforcement or

 

our FMSA emergency response line for us to relay to same."

 

Nice to hear something positive giving a better chance

 

Many Many thoughts regarding the situation - so frustrating not being able to help in any way at all sad.gif

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Many thanks to all who posted first hand accounts of the race, much appreciated...

 

Condoleances to families and friends and much support to the event organizers. This is a terrible tragedy and words from across the continent don't seem to be sufficient to express our grief.

 

Fair winds.

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Heartbreaking, and much too close to home-fair winds all and the only positive is that they were doing what they loved. Not a bad way to go.

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This is the "Care and Condolences Thread" The speculate, blame, and know it all thread will come, or has already I am sure. Remember that friends and loved ones are here. Take the this and that happened somewhere else, even if you "know" it. This is not the forum for that.

I know this is SA and it is not REQUIRED

- BUT HAVE SOME COURTESY! HEADS!

--- not just aimed a re-psycled, many of you are doing it. His was mild.

It's actually a general discussion thread, and lecturing of other posters isn't helpful.

 

I was at least the 3rd poster to reflect this sentiment in the thread.

 

And since when do we expect any SA'r not to lecture, at least occasionally?

 

My prayers and thoughts are with the families of those lost. The discussions of what/why/how and what we learn from that ourselves to keep things safer in the future I will save for somewhere else, with at least a few days of respect for the feelings of the families and friends of the dead and missing crew.

 

I don't know these guys personally, but since I moved from the West Coast last fall I have lost 3 FRIENDS from the sailing community, and especially in those first few days you are less interested in HOW and more interested in dealing with the loss and looking for support. Have some respect for the loved ones that may be reading this - at least for a few days! There have been some callous comments here for any family that may have chosen to come here for some solace. Tough SHIT if it's Sailing ANARCHY - police your own mouth.

 

I give a fuck less if you think it's a lecture - IT IS! and if even one person listens - it IS helpful!

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Saw a helo flying out there and wondered if we'd soon see shots. The one I saw was channel 7...

Sad view.

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I wrote up the race and accident as we saw it here.

 

http://neversealand.downtothesea.org/2012/04/16/oyra-farallones-2012/

 

If you look at our track at time 4:17PM you can see how a breaking wave on our port quarter caused us to spin like a top, way after we passed the islands.

 

thanks for the write-up.

 

why did you round to starboard?

 

Well it is allowed, and we were not pointing all that great in the big chop -- we were coming in more toward the S. end of the islands anyway, it was easier to just crack off a tiny bit and make it that way. My tactician assured me that it was equivalent either way (per Expedition) -- and exiting from the n. side would give us a better angle for the ride home. We did OK, I can't say we would have done better or worse going the other way.

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I wrote up the race and accident as we saw it here.

 

http://neversealand.downtothesea.org/2012/04/16/oyra-farallones-2012/

 

If you look at our track at time 4:17PM you can see how a breaking wave on our port quarter caused us to spin like a top, way after we passed the islands.

 

thanks for the write-up.

 

why did you round to starboard?

 

Well it is allowed, and we were not pointing all that great in the big chop -- we were coming in more toward the S. end of the islands anyway, it was easier to just crack off a tiny bit and make it that way. My tactician assured me that it was equivalent either way (per Expedition) -- and exiting from the n. side would give us a better angle for the ride home. We did OK, I can't say we would have done better or worse going the other way.

 

sure.., i don't sail out there, but i guess that if you aren't fetching the north side, then it's not necessarily obvious which is better.

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Aerial photos from The Chronicle: http://goo.gl/dhD0J

 

Someone help me here... were these photos taken at low tide or did a wave drop the boat that far up?

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big waves - less the next day

 

only a ~ max six foot tide at san francisco

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Aerial photos from The Chronicle: http://goo.gl/dhD0J

 

Someone help me here... were these photos taken at low tide or did a wave drop the boat that far up?

 

Not sure when that pic was taken. Highest tides in that area that day were at about 9:00 pm or shortly before! So YES I am thinking a wave tossed it up there. And yes pic was taken at lower tides.

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Aerial photos from The Chronicle: http://goo.gl/dhD0J

 

Someone help me here... were these photos taken at low tide or did a wave drop the boat that far up?

 

Not sure when that pic was taken. Highest tides in that area that day were at about 9:00 pm or shortly before! So YES I am thinking a wave tossed it up there. And yes pic was taken at lower tides.

 

Holy crap. That's a long way up. That was some big wave, must have been hell. My condolences to the friends and family, and to the survivors. Fair winds.

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Terrible and very sad. Many of us can probably recall episodes of our own experiences out in the ocean where a situation like this might have occurred and it played out with better luck. Let's not look for lessons to learn here right now, except facing the fact that we all take risks in life, in one way or another. I hope these sailors are remembered for their sportsmanship, comraderie, skill, bravery and passion. It took their lives to have the rest of us more aware of the dangers we face, and prepare the best we can every time. To the skipper, crew, friends and family, know that prayers of sailors are with you from across the nation, all the way to Puerto Rico, where I write from. Descansen en paz.

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Edelweis,

 

Yes, that's the same spot as shown from the helo photos of the boat on the island.

 

From my all-to-intimate experience of boats pushed high onto rock by large waves, the distance above MSL is really hard to believe. Also shocking is the manner in which the seaward side of the boat looks practically perfect, while the side against the rocks may be completely ripped to shreds.

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this whole thing is awful, just awful. What a sad event, a tragedy. I feel so sad sitting here on the East coast, thousands of miles away. Whatever happened, it happened and no amount of couch skippering will make a difference. I hope that as hard as it is some will find something in the fact it was a great life lead by those that are lost. Sailing is a challenge and sometimes the challenge overcomes even the strongest, best prepared. When that happens it is all we can do to offer our prayers, our condolences, our hopes for better days ahead. Even that will fall short but I hope it helps in a small way. So sorry for all those affected, what a tragedy.

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Edelweis,

 

If you look HERE you will see the dark discoloration of the rock in the area frequently swept by waves. This is not from tide, it's from the frequent battering that the windward side of the island receives all winter long. It is relatively common for a wave to run 20-30 feet up the windward side. Just down the coast is Maverick's, the site of the big-wave surfing contest that regularly gets 20-30 foot waves and sometimes much larger. The waves can be quite large around this area.

 

We race in the spring around here because the winds are more predictable and interesting. But it can be a bit too close to winter at times.

 

BV

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More victims of the pitiless sea. For those still here, love them forever.

 

This is one of those times that-

 

"I hate to be near the sea, and to hear it roaring and raging like a wild beast in it's den. It puts me in mind of the everlasting efforts of the human mind, struggling to be free, and ending just where it began"

 

-William Hazlitt

 

I wish them the Peace beyond Dreams.

 

Paul

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While I am in no way entitled to speak for the SF Bay sailing community, I do want to thank each and every one of you for your kind thoughts and more importantly for your restraint at this difficult time. Thank you so much for your consideration.

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To all the survivors and to the departed, you will always be in our thoughts and prayers. As sailors and ocean racers we are all adventurers just trying to live life to its fullest for as long as we are here.

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I was also in that '99 DHF race with John Simpson (casc27--Is that you John?). 18 foot seas and 38 knot winds. My thought at the time was if you go overboard, you're toast. The odds of a sailboat being able to get to you at all are slim indeed. That the crew of the turtled F31 got rescued was simply a miracle. Harvey Schlasky had the same safety equipment we had, although I think the question of whether his PFD inflated correctly or not was never really answered. In any case, you can't get back aboard a boat when you are being dragged behind it at 6 knots.

 

Low Speed Chase was crewed by experienced people. Yes, lots of boats cut the rock WAY too close, but the accident that killed Harvey Schlasky was only about 3-4 miles outside the Gate. We all tend to look for reasons when something like this happens, but it could happen to any of us in those conditions even with all the safety gear in the world. Anyone who thinks differently has never been in a Farallones race. This was just a terrible, terrible accident. Our thoughts and prayers are with the families and friends of the deceased at this time. We can defend the Farallones races against the inevitable backlash another day.

 

Fair winds, mates.

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Thoughts and Prayers to Family and Friends.

 

Fair Winds..

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Aerial photos from The Chronicle: http://goo.gl/dhD0J

 

Someone help me here... were these photos taken at low tide or did a wave drop the boat that far up?

 

Not sure when that pic was taken. Highest tides in that area that day were at about 9:00 pm or shortly before! So YES I am thinking a wave tossed it up there. And yes pic was taken at lower tides.

 

Holy crap. That's a long way up. That was some big wave, must have been hell. My condolences to the friends and family, and to the survivors. Fair winds.

 

Stunning. The ocean positively threw that boat onto the island. Way up onto it. There's human error, and then there's simply being overwhelmed by the power of nature.

 

I hope no one thinks that I'm making light of the situation, but these people were doing something awesome, something that they loved. I'm sorry for the loss of life and the families' pain, but there are worse ways to go. I'm also sorry for the skipper, whom I'm sure would trade his life in a heartbeat, for the crew he lost.

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I was at the Gaints game at AT&T park last night. Just before the singing of the national anthem, the public announcer asked for a moment of silence to honor the crew lost in this tragedy. The names of each of the crew members was read while showing a picture of Alexis Busch on the large outfield screen. It was very deep and respectful, and probably one of the only times the park saw 40,000 people standing in complete silence with only the sounds of seagulls reminding us of the waters around us.

 

 

I really wish this had turned out different. My sincere condolences to the families of the crew.

 

 

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I have been thinking of this tragedy for days now, I am stunned. I did not know any of the lost crew but as sailors we are all kin. There is no one to blame, we wern't there. My thoughts go out to the families who now must live on with this huge loss. They will need a lot of support.

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Those Sydney's are tough boats but the wrong place at the wrong time... Sorry for your loss out West.

 

 

 

PS - in the future this is the way all threads like this should be, 11 pages of respect and condolences for the majority. After the nonsense we had here in Chicago last July this is refreshing.

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One of the survivors is a close friend. At some point Jay, Nick and Bryan may share their account of the incident - if they are so inclined. For now consider the media stories somewhat inaccurate, and much of the "monday morning quarterbacking" either ill-informed or completely disrespectful. There are lessons to be learned, and I'm sure the Coast Guard will offer some conclusions,but now is the time for comforting those who have lost friends and loved ones.

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I've had some tough conversations with the wife this weekend - and I'm pretty sure one of my crew will never go out the gate again. All very understandable and to be respected.

Now ain't the time for "could'a/would'a/should'a" when none of us has gotten our arms all the way 'round all this yet. I think it would be preferable to sit back and think about all this a bit and leave the speculation for a later time, preferably in a separate thread. For now, we all need to lick our wounds and take care of each other, and particularly take care of the families and friends. For now, God bless our brothers and our sister.

I Agree. I know this is SA and we all appreciate the open discussion forum that this is but this may be the place for some form of convention: a week of mourning prior to posts regarding fault analysis which should be in a separate thread.

my two bits.

Prayers and Condolences ,

Jaya

I respect your perspective and right to do as you wish.

Please likewise respect my right to a different perspective and action.

Criticizing others here is neither helpful nor useful.

My $0.02.

 

Then start another thread. It's not that difficult.

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Very good coverage in the Chron today:

"Lost sailors were adventurous, experienced"

 

This was a good article but here is a better one. SJ Merc Story

 

What I liked about this story is that they stuck primarily to facts, not opinion. Comments from John Navas about how we all go close and we all are cavalier about tethers is blood in the water for the press. I don't know what happened because I did not get to the island until the helicopter was already there. I doubt you were an eye witness and if you were please call the USCG and let them know what you saw.

 

We probably all have an opinion about what might have happened but they are just that, opinion. They don't belong in the media being treated as fact. From requests I have read earlier they don't belong in this thread either. When and if a new discussion is started about the details of this incident, when and if they are known, that might be the place for the discussion.

 

I realize this is a big hit for all of us who play out there and we want a reason and want closure. I think we all need to take a deep breath and be patient and wait for the experts to analyze what they think might have happened based on actual facts and true eye witness accounts. Speculation prior to that is not helpful.

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We are all saddened by this loss of life , by all accounts of knowledgable sailors. This tragedy so poignantly makes you aware of the inherent dangers of traveling on the water . Be vigilant, be knowledgable, and never be complacent. The incident nails home the message to all sailors how real those dangers are when a talent pool of trained sailors , adventurers are swept away to their watery grave. Dam that knocks the wind out of your sails. My crew will meet this weekend to pass a toast to those lost souls. I encourage all Captains to share this moment with their crews. Our tradition is to face to the east and toss a dram of whiskey over our left shoulder too the setting sun. We offer that spirit drink to the sailors spirits we just lost and all that have left us and gone off chasing the setting sun. While still facing to the east we pour another dram for our crew and toast ourselves in the knowledge that the sun will rise tomorrow and we will live another day to face our own challenges . Capt. Ed

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Very good coverage in the Chron today:

"Lost sailors were adventurous, experienced"

 

This was a good article but here is a better one. SJ Merc Story

 

What I liked about this story is that they stuck primarily to facts, not opinion. Comments from John Navas about how we all go close and we all are cavalier about tethers is blood in the water for the press. I don't know what happened because I did not get to the island until the helicopter was already there. I doubt you were an eye witness and if you were please call the USCG and let them know what you saw.

 

We probably all have an opinion about what might have happened but they are just that, opinion. They don't belong in the media being treated as fact. From requests I have read earlier they don't belong in this thread either. When and if a new discussion is started about the details of this incident, when and if they are known, that might be the place for the discussion.

 

I realize this is a big hit for all of us who play out there and we want a reason and want closure. I think we all need to take a deep breath and be patient and wait for the experts to analyze what they think might have happened based on actual facts and true eye witness accounts. Speculation prior to that is not helpful.

 

Its is better and less inaccurate.

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All, I told the Ed about that post...hopefully it will come down soon and our newbie will be given a break on his own beach in Texas, and come back when he's ready to play fair.

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All, I told the Ed about that post...hopefully it will come down soon and our newbie will be given a break on his own beach in Texas, and come back when he's ready to play fair.

 

+1

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+1 for Pogen. Thank you for sharing my thoughts and expressing them with other words.

 

+1 for BobW. I came to this forum (I usually avoid SA due to what we see going on here) to search for information. This thread has degraded to the point where there is no longer any available.

 

Dixie is correct, this one is done and I am done with it.

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Ed: can you "clean out" some of the bs posts here? Maybe then we can keep this one open.

 

I for one have not shared my thoughts here. We were on Ahi and rounding the west side around 1545 when we saw the wreck. It was not as far up the rocks as the sf chron pictures showed it to be the next day, so there must have been some monster waves later.

 

When we saw it, after a minute of shock, we started scanning for swimmers in the hopes they bailed out of a disabled boat. But we were rounding at about .5 nm and there was nobody.

 

Later I was second-guessing myself, feeling bad that we didn't try to do more searching, but he report from Green Buffalo for one made me feel better that we just would not have been able to do anything.

 

It's still a horrible feeling though to know we were so close, but could not reach them.

 

My thoughts are with the survivors: I hope they do not blame themselves. Accidents happen. And with the families of the lost: may they find comfort.

 

And I am very grateful to sail with the crew of Ahi under skipper Andy. Times like this are hard, but they bring us closer together. Andy keeps us safe; I'd rather sail with him than just about anyone else.

 

Bob Walden

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Horribly sad news. Since none of us were there maybe we should offer support and respect. It seems all involved were good sailors and nice people, lets keep away from opinions that only will spark anger. Reminds me of the Wingnuts thread.

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Fair winds to the lost and thoughts and prayers to friends and loved ones.

 

 

Is it too much for the socially retarded to have some grace on threads like these? Give it a break.

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tempted not to post this but here goes...

 

Had lunch yesterday with friends all directly affected my the tragic events. I arrived about 10 minutes ahead of everyone else. Standing in line in front of me was a couple who both had shirts on that said SF Search & Rescue and USCG. I asked if they were both involved in Saturdays search and after a very uncomfortable moment they replied yes. I simply said thank you for bringing 4 of our friends home and working tirelessly trying to find the others. That's all.

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tempted not to post this but here goes...

 

Had lunch yesterday with friends all directly affected my the tragic events. I arrived about 10 minutes ahead of everyone else. Standing in line in front of me was a couple who both had shirts on that said SF Search & Rescue and USCG. I asked if they were both involved in Saturdays search and after a very uncomfortable moment they replied yes. I simply said thank you for bringing 4 of our friends home and working tirelessly trying to find the others. That's all.

 

Well played, man. Nicely done.

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My thoughts are with the survivors: I hope they do not blame themselves. Accidents happen. And with the families of the lost: may they find comfort.

 

+1.

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My thoughts are with the survivors: I hope they do not blame themselves. Accidents happen. And with the families of the lost: may they find comfort.

 

+1.

 

+2

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tempted not to post this but here goes...

 

Had lunch yesterday with friends all directly affected my the tragic events. I arrived about 10 minutes ahead of everyone else. Standing in line in front of me was a couple who both had shirts on that said SF Search & Rescue and USCG. I asked if they were both involved in Saturdays search and after a very uncomfortable moment they replied yes. I simply said thank you for bringing 4 of our friends home and working tirelessly trying to find the others. That's all.

 

Well played, man. Nicely done.

 

+1

 

times like these expose people for who they really are !

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tempted not to post this but here goes...

 

Had lunch yesterday with friends all directly affected my the tragic events. I arrived about 10 minutes ahead of everyone else. Standing in line in front of me was a couple who both had shirts on that said SF Search & Rescue and USCG. I asked if they were both involved in Saturdays search and after a very uncomfortable moment they replied yes. I simply said thank you for bringing 4 of our friends home and working tirelessly trying to find the others. That's all.

 

Gosh that makes me think we should find a way to thank them. I'm glad you had occasion to do so, DB.

Had dinner last night with same (as you likely know :)) and had a chance to reflect and laugh and cry some more. Man this is tough.

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Rather than attempting to censor the discussion by personally insulting folks who start to speculate about the causes of this tragedy, why don't you just address their arguments?

 

Did Low Speed Chase get too close to the rocks? Obviously. We know that because she is up on the rocks. But we have almost no information about why? For all we know, she was well offshore when she lost crew overboard and did not get into the shoal area until she was attempting recovery and sailing shorthanded. I think people should be free to speculate about the causes in this thread, but they should be called out on their assumptions, biases, and baseless attempts to cast blame.

 

From my perspective, I don't understand how any of the posters can know what the ultimate causes were. I don't know what line they attempted to sail around the island. I don't know why they chose that route over alternatives. I don't know if the wave that first swept the crew overboard was one a series of breaking waves at that location or if that one rose out of nowhere from a complex pattern of interactions. I don't know if tethers would have helped or resulted in additional fatalities. I don't know if personal EPIRBs would have helped (except perhaps to locate the dead bodies, cold comfort).

 

They may have made a series of very prudent decisions, that nevertheless ended in tragedy. Some of the posts are by folks who seem to be motivated to believe that an error of judgment must be to blame. Maybe there was such an error, maybe there wasn't. We may never know.

 

It is a smug and pleasant fiction to believe that life is fair -- that these deaths must be the consequent of foolishness or recklessness. But folks die in spite of superior judgement and preparation. This is true on land, it's true in the air, and it is true on the water.

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Just had a 3 hour lunch/reunion with 5 of the 7 left from our 1980 Vic/Maui crew. Toasts for our mates that are gone, and the missing crew lost at the Farallones. Sad.

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tempted not to post this but here goes...

 

Had lunch yesterday with friends all directly affected my the tragic events. I arrived about 10 minutes ahead of everyone else. Standing in line in front of me was a couple who both had shirts on that said SF Search & Rescue and USCG. I asked if they were both involved in Saturdays search and after a very uncomfortable moment they replied yes. I simply said thank you for bringing 4 of our friends home and working tirelessly trying to find the others. That's all.

 

Gosh that makes me think we should find a way to thank them. I'm glad you had occasion to do so, DB.

Had dinner last night with same (as you likely know :)) and had a chance to reflect and laugh and cry some more. Man this is tough.

 

I've been liking their Social Media pages and adding gratitude to them in condolences messages. The the Air NG 129th rescue wing as well. For the ones I know personally I've sent personal message and it was appreciated.

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Gosh that makes me think we should find a way to thank them. I'm glad you had occasion to do so, DB.

Had dinner last night with same (as you likely know :)) and had a chance to reflect and laugh and cry some more. Man this is tough.

Dixie,

 

Just to let you know, there is something already being put together for just this purpose. More details will follow soon.

 

PM me, and I will fill you in on the current plans this evening.

 

-MH

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water.

 

waste of blabish here as those wanting to hear it are "Over Here"

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Rather than attempting to censor the discussion by personally insulting folks who start to speculate about the causes of this tragedy, why don't you just address their arguments?

 

Did Low Speed Chase get too close to the rocks? Obviously. We know that because she is up on the rocks. But we have almost no information about why? For all we know, she was well offshore when she lost crew overboard and did not get into the shoal area until she was attempting recovery and sailing shorthanded. I think people should be free to speculate about the causes in this thread, but they should be called out on their assumptions, biases, and baseless attempts to cast blame.

 

From my perspective, I don't understand how any of the posters can know what the ultimate causes were. I don't know what line they attempted to sail around the island. I don't know why they chose that route over alternatives. I don't know if the wave that first swept the crew overboard was one a series of breaking waves at that location or if that one rose out of nowhere from a complex pattern of interactions. I don't know if tethers would have helped or resulted in additional fatalities. I don't know if personal EPIRBs would have helped (except perhaps to locate the dead bodies, cold comfort).

 

They may have made a series of very prudent decisions, that nevertheless ended in tragedy. Some of the posts are by folks who seem to be motivated to believe that an error of judgment must be to blame. Maybe there was such an error, maybe there wasn't. We may never know.

 

It is a smug and pleasant fiction to believe that life is fair -- that these deaths must be the consequent of foolishness or recklessness. But folks die in spite of superior judgement and preparation. This is true on land, it's true in the air, and it is true on the water.

+ 1

Well said.

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Sometime at eve when the tide is low,

I shall slip my mooring and sail away

With no response to the friendly hail

Of kindred craft in the busy bay.

 

In the silent hush of the twilight pale

When the night stoops down to embrace the day

And the voices call in the water’s flow….

Sometime at eve when the tide is low

I shall slip my mooring and sail away.

 

Through the purpling shadows that darkly trail

O’er the ebbing tide of the Unknown Sea,

I shall fare me away, with a dip of sail

And ripple of waters to tell the tale

Of a lonely voyager, sailing away

To the Mystic Isles where at anchor lay

The crafts of those who have sailed before

O’er the Unknown Sea to the Unseen Shore.

 

A few who have watched me sail away

Will miss my craft from the busy bay;

Some friendly barques that were anchored near,

Some loving souls that my heart held dear,

In silent sorrow will drop a tear-

 

But I shall have peacefully furled my sail

In moorings sheltered from storm or gale

And greeted the friends who have sailed before

O’er the Unknown Sea to the Unseen Shore.

 

Elizabeth Clark Hardy

 

Brian Pickell set the above to music

 

http://www.brianpickell.com/downloads/bpband_track03.mp3

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Rather than attempting to censor the discussion by personally insulting folks who start to speculate about the causes of this tragedy, why don't you just address their arguments?

 

Did Low Speed Chase get too close to the rocks? Obviously. We know that because she is up on the rocks. But we have almost no information about why? For all we know, she was well offshore when she lost crew overboard and did not get into the shoal area until she was attempting recovery and sailing shorthanded. I think people should be free to speculate about the causes in this thread, but they should be called out on their assumptions, biases, and baseless attempts to cast blame.

 

From my perspective, I don't understand how any of the posters can know what the ultimate causes were. I don't know what line they attempted to sail around the island. I don't know why they chose that route over alternatives. I don't know if the wave that first swept the crew overboard was one a series of breaking waves at that location or if that one rose out of nowhere from a complex pattern of interactions. I don't know if tethers would have helped or resulted in additional fatalities. I don't know if personal EPIRBs would have helped (except perhaps to locate the dead bodies, cold comfort).

 

They may have made a series of very prudent decisions, that nevertheless ended in tragedy. Some of the posts are by folks who seem to be motivated to believe that an error of judgment must be to blame. Maybe there was such an error, maybe there wasn't. We may never know.

 

It is a smug and pleasant fiction to believe that life is fair -- that these deaths must be the consequent of foolishness or recklessness. But folks die in spite of superior judgement and preparation. This is true on land, it's true in the air, and it is true on the water.

+ 1

Well said.

 

At least have enough respect for them that they can work through their grief before you fill the threads with conjecture.

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Bob W - Thanks for starting the other thread.

 

Despite the more typical Sailing Anarchy tenor-ed posts, the predominant sentiments of this thread are important and does continue to expand in support and comfort to survivors and families.

 

As a family that is still reeling from losing one of the next generation in such an accidental nature, the news is announced with devastating suddenness and your knees buckle and your breathing ceases. The last thing needed is, "I know how you feel", or "I know what happened".

 

The tragic consequences and loss will be with you always, but someday, little by little, you will realize that there will be:

 

Fair Winds and Following Seas

 

Once again, the USCG has accomplished the remarkable.

 

 

 

 

 

Ed: can you "clean out" some of the bs posts here? Maybe then we can keep this one open.

 

I for one have not shared my thoughts here. We were on Ahi and rounding the west side around 1545 when we saw the wreck. It was not as far up the rocks as the sf chron pictures showed it to be the next day, so there must have been some monster waves later.

 

When we saw it, after a minute of shock, we started scanning for swimmers in the hopes they bailed out of a disabled boat. But we were rounding at about .5 nm and there was nobody.

 

Later I was second-guessing myself, feeling bad that we didn't try to do more searching, but he report from Green Buffalo for one made me feel better that we just would not have been able to do anything.

 

It's still a horrible feeling though to know we were so close, but could not reach them.

 

My thoughts are with the survivors: I hope they do not blame themselves. Accidents happen. And with the families of the lost: may they find comfort.

 

And I am very grateful to sail with the crew of Ahi under skipper Andy. Times like this are hard, but they bring us closer together. Andy keeps us safe; I'd rather sail with him than just about anyone else.

 

Bob Walden

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I've now spoken to the USCG, and the USCG will not be investigating this tragedy.

Because it was a "recreational boating" incident, that will be done by the SFPD: Inspector Dean Taylor

 

USCG may or may not review the permitting process for the event.

That will be handled by Lieutenant Commander DesaRae A. Janszen, Waterways Management.

 

So a thorough nautical safety review of the incident seems unlikely.

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Survivor of fatal yacht accident speaks out*

link

 

IrishTimes link report about Alan and Elmer

 

 

 

*Also 6 perished in the extreme storm of 1982 but 2 were not in the race

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John,

We have a nice thread next door in which you are welcome to contribute your opinions. This thread,is NOT the place. Here we're remembering our friends, not analyzing their deaths. We've asked nicely. Now please, go to the other thread and make yourself at home.

 

We all thank you.

 

N.S.

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I think some of us are missing the point here, myself included. I have had a couple of days dealing with the 'business' of the incident with the YRA team, a vigil, dodging reporters, dealing with a couple etc.

 

Finally today I was able to get a little bit caught up with my thoughts and emotions.

 

What I am working on taking away from this is that life is short, fragile and precious. It really has little to do with sailboats, the island or any other details.

 

For the people that lost someone this is a life altering event to be sure. If you know any of them please do what you can to comfort them and help them through what must be an agonizing and surreal time. The survivors especially must be going through very hard times. I can't imaging what they might be going through because if I try I start to freak out.

 

For the rest of us who did not personally know those directly effected I'd like to reiterate something I read here or elsewhere over the last few days.

 

NOW is the time to go to the people you care about and who care about you and let them know how much you do care. Give your spouse/partner/etc an extra long hug. Yell at the kids a little less and give them a hug even though they might not deserve it or understand it. None of us is getting out of this world alive, like it or not.

 

Do it now because unfortunately as we see here the day may come when you wish you had.

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broomed some posts away in respect for the lost. Please be respectful in here, save your other stuff for the other thread. Thanks much.

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+1

 

As one who has been in the water, been rescued and lost fellow crew members, I can sympathize with the survivors. This tragedy has brought back a rush of feelings and my condolences to the families of those lost and I wish strength to the survivors. Not a day goes by since last July 18th that my thoughts haven't been brought back to that event or thoughts of those lost. It is hard to wrap your head around how this changes one's life. I definitely give more hugs to my family.

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broomed some posts away in respect for the lost. Please be respectful in here, save your other stuff for the other thread. Thanks much.

 

 

Broom on isle #292 please wink.gif

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I am continually reminded just exactly how much authority conservation folks have around here. I am all for conservation but I really don't see how salvage couldn't be done in an environmentally responsible manner- especially if its an airlift....then again we converted excess parking spaces in SF into a lovely duck pond for a mere 30M$(?) too. 2 birds with one stone- eliminated extra money and parking spaces all at once! It really is a nice duck pond- I keep looking for golden eggs

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Posted · Hidden by Old Farr boat, April 18, 2012 - copied and pasted to other thread

I've now spoken to the USCG, and the USCG will not be investigating this tragedy.

Because it was a "recreational boating" incident, that will be done by the SFPD: Inspector Dean Taylor

 

USCG may or may not review the permitting process for the event.

That will be handled by Lieutenant Commander DesaRae A. Janszen, Waterways Management.

 

So a thorough nautical safety review of the incident seems unlikely.

 

Well, the USCG reads SA and the Chronicle and they figured since you already had it all figured out they would save themselves the trouble...

 

But seriously...

 

Why are you bothering the nice folks at the Coast Guard? They have a real job to do and are professionals as we saw. Your involvement is not helping, but I realize that won't stop you based on what has gone on here.

 

A LOT of people (full disclosure: I'm not among them) have spent a lot of time building a rapport with the local Coast Guard folks. Why are you involved? Are you part of the large, hard working group of volunteers (YC's, YRA, BAMA, SSS and many more) in the Bay Area that work tirelessly to put on sailing races? Are you a boat owner with some stake in all this?

 

I would respectfully suggest that you lay low for a while or you might just have to buy a boat in order to get a ride.

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John...Andy... Please, take this to the other thread

http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=134043

 

Consider this like a wake...you don't come in here to pick at the gory details. Consider the other thread--which I have not looked in since opening--like the corner bar down the street from the wake. Go over there to let it all hang out--it's the right place for it.

 

Rest of us...when someone says something uncouth here--roll your eyes and ignore. Quoting it and trashing them here just exacerbates it.

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Nice TV2 report w local sailors Adam, Tom, Ron. Nicely done . SFPD comments also..interviews of crew completed

 

link

 

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This was such a terrible accident that happened...My heart goes out to the families of the lost yachtsmen..Everybody has had quite a bit of input ..but no body has stepped up to the plate about the families of this accident...Or has talked about setting up a fund to help the families that have been torn apart...So how about the children ...We need to start up a fund no matter how mu,ch money you can afford to help with the everyday needs of the families..How about it...some body must be in banking or some financial occupation that could set up a fund of any donations....then when that is set up ..I know things are tight for many of us..but let's step up to the plate and help these families...anything 10 bucks ,5 anything..I am sure will help.....How about it? Think of it this way...that could be your family. That has just lost YOU...How about a little help here? What will it take to help to set this up..or I can do it ..but need to know where toset it up...How about some positive input into this...

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My thoughts are with you all in the San Francisco Bay Area and with all those who feel the loss of our fellow sailors.

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More brooming. Please just give the arguing a rest, and know that it makes it a lot more time consuming when you all respond to something you don't like. I'll get it, just leave it alone.

 

tls, you can trust that we will continue to pay attention to the conjecture thread, and will keep sending interested people into both.

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