• Announcements

    • UnderDawg

      A Few Simple Rules   05/22/2017

      Sailing Anarchy is a very lightly moderated site. This is by design, to afford a more free atmosphere for discussion. There are plenty of sailing forums you can go to where swearing isn't allowed, confrontation is squelched and, and you can have a moderator finger-wag at you for your attitude. SA tries to avoid that and allow for more adult behavior without moderators editing your posts and whacking knuckles with rulers. We don't have a long list of published "thou shalt nots" either, and this is by design. Too many absolute rules paints us into too many corners. So check the Terms of Service - there IS language there about certain types of behavior that is not permitted. We interpret that lightly and permit a lot of latitude, but we DO reserve the right to take action when something is too extreme to tolerate (too racist, graphic, violent, misogynistic, etc.). Yes, that is subjective, but it allows us discretion. Avoiding a laundry list of rules allows for freedom; don't abuse it. However there ARE a few basic rules that will earn you a suspension, and apparently a brief refresher is in order. 1) Allegations of pedophilia - there is no tolerance for this. So if you make allegations, jokes, innuendo or suggestions about child molestation, child pornography, abuse or inappropriate behavior with minors etc. about someone on this board you will get a time out. This is pretty much automatic; this behavior can have real world effect and is not acceptable. Obviously the subject is not banned when discussion of it is apropos, e.g. talking about an item in the news for instance. But allegations or references directed at or about another poster is verboten. 2) Outing people - providing real world identifiable information about users on the forums who prefer to remain anonymous. Yes, some of us post with our real names - not a problem to use them. However many do NOT, and if you find out someone's name keep it to yourself, first or last. This also goes for other identifying information too - employer information etc. You don't need too many pieces of data to figure out who someone really is these days. Depending on severity you might get anything from a scolding to a suspension - so don't do it. I know it can be confusing sometimes for newcomers, as SA has been around almost twenty years and there are some people that throw their real names around and their current Display Name may not match the name they have out in the public. But if in doubt, you don't want to accidentally out some one so use caution, even if it's a personal friend of yours in real life. 3) Posting While Suspended - If you've earned a timeout (these are fairly rare and hard to get), please observe the suspension. If you create a new account (a "Sock Puppet") and return to the forums to post with it before your suspension is up you WILL get more time added to your original suspension and lose your Socks. This behavior may result a permanent ban, since it shows you have zero respect for the few rules we have and the moderating team that is tasked with supporting them. Check the Terms of Service you agreed to; they apply to the individual agreeing, not the account you created, so don't try to Sea Lawyer us if you get caught. Just don't do it. Those are the three that will almost certainly get you into some trouble. IF YOU SEE SOMEONE DO ONE OF THESE THINGS, please do the following: Refrain from quoting the offending text, it makes the thread cleanup a pain in the rear Press the Report button; it is by far the best way to notify Admins as we will get e-mails. Calling out for Admins in the middle of threads, sending us PM's, etc. - there is no guarantee we will get those in a timely fashion. There are multiple Moderators in multiple time zones around the world, and anyone one of us can handle the Report and all of us will be notified about it. But if you PM one Mod directly and he's off line, the problem will get dealt with much more slowly. Other behaviors that you might want to think twice before doing include: Intentionally disrupting threads and discussions repeatedly. Off topic/content free trolling in threads to disrupt dialog Stalking users around the forums with the intent to disrupt content and discussion Repeated posting of overly graphic or scatological porn content. There are plenty web sites for you to get your freak on, don't do it here. And a brief note to Newbies... No, we will not ban people or censor them for dropping F-bombs on you, using foul language, etc. so please don't report it when one of our members gives you a greeting you may find shocking. We do our best not to censor content here and playing swearword police is not in our job descriptions. Sailing Anarchy is more like a bar than a classroom, so handle it like you would meeting someone a little coarse - don't look for the teacher. Thanks.

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

eclipsemullet

Marking Halyards

34 posts in this topic

white whipping, or Tipex (white-out for the yanks)

...or Blanco for the SE Asian ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd suggest maybe a light dinner, nothing too heavy at first.

 

What ever you do, don't talk about yourself, let them do the talking.

 

Go slow early, and good luck with it!

 

SB

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lesson 2.

 

How to put your underpants on the right way around

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
white whipping, or Tipex (white-out for the yanks)
...or Blanco for the SE Asian ;)

Wears off.

 

Whip it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What's the best way to make a mark on a (dark) halyard?

 

Silver Sharpie's work fairly well but it does need upkeep. If you are going to whip a mark on make sure the halyard is well worked in so the cover and core are settled in so you do not create any cover slack build-up where you may not want it.

 

Thanks.

Mark

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1335612827[/url]' post='3690698']

I'd suggest maybe a light dinner, nothing too heavy at first.

 

What ever you do, don't talk about yourself, let them do the talking.

 

Go slow early, and good luck with it!

 

SB

 

White wine exceptible? Or red?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Instead of marking your halyards, which stretch and move around. Why don't you mark the sails and the luff foil. Put a sharpire mark on both side of the foil, then mark each jib at the same place on the luff tape. This will be much more accurate.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What's the best way to make a mark on a (dark) halyard?

 

Very carefully.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Instead of marking your halyards, which stretch and move around. Why don't you mark the sails and the luff foil. Put a sharpire mark on both side of the foil, then mark each jib at the same place on the luff tape. This will be much more accurate.

Defeats the purpose.

 

The purpose of the marks on the halyard are not to precisely dial on the tension, which is different for every sail. An experienced trimmer's eye is needed for that.

 

The purpose is to let the pit know when they are near the top. +/- 6 cm is close enough. There are many instances where the pit can not see the top of the rig well enough and they require verbal or hand signals from someone forward to let them know when they are near the top of the hoist. It is counter-productive and slow to lift your gaze from the job at hand.

 

Once the head is in the general vicinity, fine tune from there.

 

Now if you have some scale by the haly'd and make decent notes, you can use them to get closer to good trim. Something like "North 3Di #3, 22 knots TWS, short chop: 4.5"

 

4655.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Instead of marking your halyards, which stretch and move around. Why don't you mark the sails and the luff foil. Put a sharpire mark on both side of the foil, then mark each jib at the same place on the luff tape. This will be much more accurate.

Defeats the purpose.

 

The purpose of the marks on the halyard are not to precisely dial on the tension, which is different for every sail. An experienced trimmer's eye is needed for that.

 

The purpose is to let the pit know when they are near the top. +/- 6 cm is close enough. There are many instances where the pit can not see the top of the rig well enough and they require verbal or hand signals from someone forward to let them know when they are near the top of the hoist. It is counter-productive and slow to lift your gaze from the job at hand.

 

Once the head is in the general vicinity, fine tune from there.

 

Now if you have some scale by the haly'd and make decent notes, you can use them to get closer to good trim. Something like "North 3Di #3, 22 knots TWS, short chop: 4.5"

 

4655.jpg

 

Nah. We need to mark the halyards so the crew will tend the correct line.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Instead of marking your halyards, which stretch and move around. Why don't you mark the sails and the luff foil. Put a sharpire mark on both side of the foil, then mark each jib at the same place on the luff tape. This will be much more accurate.

 

Hopefully your halyards have far less stretch and movment than any sail. Marking the halyard is far more accurate than the sails luff with corresponding headstay mark.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Instead of marking your halyards, which stretch and move around. Why don't you mark the sails and the luff foil. Put a sharpire mark on both side of the foil, then mark each jib at the same place on the luff tape. This will be much more accurate.

 

Hopefully your halyards have far less stretch and movment than any sail. Marking the halyard is far more accurate than the sails luff with corresponding headstay mark.

 

How 'bout them plastic sails? Think they stretch?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Instead of marking your halyards, which stretch and move around. Why don't you mark the sails and the luff foil. Put a sharpire mark on both side of the foil, then mark each jib at the same place on the luff tape. This will be much more accurate.

 

Hopefully your halyards have far less stretch and movment than any sail. Marking the halyard is far more accurate than the sails luff with corresponding headstay mark.

 

Any sail? Dacron maybe... But carbon? 3di... I think your blanket statement was a bit bold.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wrap with white or storm orange insignia cloth (aka sticky back) for 2-6 inches then stitch the edges of the sticky back down

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Marking line with felt pens and the like is not a good idea:

 

"Tests done by the UIAA Safety Commission and by some rope manufacturers have shown that rope

marking with liquids such as those provided by felt-tipped pens can be dangerous, even with those

markers, sold specifically for marking ropes. The test results showed a decrease up to approximately

50% of the rope strength . . ."

Marking with thread isn't too effective because it's hard to see. Instead, use brightly colored (colorfast synthetic) knitting yarn woven in several times around with a small sailmaker's needle. A nice feature is the mark can be removed later if it needs to be relocated.

 

Concerning where to mark, two block the halyard (tightly but no winching) using a messenger line and make the mark in front of the clutch where you can put a 0-10 number strip with the zero at the mark. The mark can't enter the clutch and "disappear." One strip suffices for a bank of clutches. Of course there's no mark on the main halyard; the black band on the mast is what counts.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have used the marking the foil and sail method before but found some issues with it. On a boat like a Farr 40 your headstay may be longer or shorter by quite a bit within the range of, say, the medium depending on where you are in your rig tune. On an inline spreader rig you need to have the runner/backstay at the proper setting before you go to your mark for it to be accurate. Last issue being there is usually a bit of play in your foil on the stay up and down, especially if you are at max runner/backstay. There is the possibility of the sail having enough tug in it after hoisting that the foil is in the "up" position.

 

I don't recall seeing a halyard saturated with a marker to the point that it has stained the core.

 

The halyard clearly gets played throughout a race but with enough communication between a trimmer and pitman as to what looks good the pitman should be able to look at the windspeed before the leeward mark and set the halyard to a mark on the deck. The trimmer letting the pitman know about any changes they have made during a leg will let him/her know to have a look at the final setting before going downwind. Hopefully, he/she will ask for the windspeed after having a peek.

 

Long story short, I am still a fan of the sharpie, silver if on a dark halyard. That said, I try to avoid black cover on main and jib halyards for this reason.

 

Thanks.

Mark

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Marking line with felt pens and the like is not a good idea:

"Tests done by the UIAA Safety Commission and by some rope manufacturers have shown that rope

marking with liquids such as those provided by felt-tipped pens can be dangerous, even with those

markers, sold specifically for marking ropes. The test results showed a decrease up to approximately

50% of the rope strength . . ."

 

Up to 50% is not a problem at all. A typical 10 mm dyneema halyard on a 35' boat has a breaking strength of about 5000 kg and 50% of that is about 2500 kg. The clutches used start to slip below 1000 kg thus there is still 2.5 safety factor. And typical halyard loads are up to 500 kg on that size.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

. . .

I don't recall seeing a halyard saturated with a marker to the point that it has stained the core.

. . .

Long story short, I am still a fan of the sharpie, silver if on a dark halyard.

. . .

 

Thanks.

Mark

 

Thanks for the reasoned observations. One thought is a cover failure mucks things up quite nicely and anecdotally occurs much more often. That said, use of felt pens, etc., is widespread with no apparent repercussions. I suspect as a top level rigger you're used to dealing with fresh lines under careful inspection instead of possibly underspec'ed line still in service way beyond its service life, when problems from solvents may surface. I've brought this issue up with riggers and all said it's not worth worrying about.

 

But my main point is: why tempt fate when a non-damaging alternative is available?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Up to 50% is not a problem at all.

. . .

 

Agreed the tensile strength of modern lines far exceeds service requirements. But why do something that may result in a 50% decrease when it's not necessary?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Up to 50% is not a problem at all.

. . .

 

Agreed the tensile strength of modern lines far exceeds service requirements. But why do something that may result in a 50% decrease when it's not necessary?

 

That was about climbing ropes.

 

They are made from different stuff and of a different construction. The stuff we use has covers which are only there to protect the cores from where and ease of handling. The covers do not contribute significantly to the ropes break strength. It's a different story in the stretchy stuff climbers use.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Up to 50% is not a problem at all.

. . .

 

Agreed the tensile strength of modern lines far exceeds service requirements. But why do something that may result in a 50% decrease when it's not necessary?

 

That was about climbing ropes.

 

They are made from different stuff and of a different construction. The stuff we use has covers which are only there to protect the cores from where and ease of handling. The covers do not contribute significantly to the ropes break strength. It's a different story in the stretchy stuff climbers use.

 

And they actually measured how many drops the rope can handle not how much tensile strength it has. The bottom line seems to be that the markng only has an effect if it is positioned at the bending point: http://cascadeclimbers.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/36729/Re_rope_marking_it_s_back

 

So it probably has more to do with wear resistance than tensile strength.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Instead of marking your halyards, which stretch and move around. Why don't you mark the sails and the luff foil. Put a sharpire mark on both side of the foil, then mark each jib at the same place on the luff tape. This will be much more accurate.

Defeats the purpose.

 

The purpose of the marks on the halyard are not to precisely dial on the tension, which is different for every sail. An experienced trimmer's eye is needed for that.

 

The purpose is to let the pit know when they are near the top. +/- 6 cm is close enough. There are many instances where the pit can not see the top of the rig well enough and they require verbal or hand signals from someone forward to let them know when they are near the top of the hoist. It is counter-productive and slow to lift your gaze from the job at hand.

 

Once the head is in the general vicinity, fine tune from there.

 

Now if you have some scale by the haly'd and make decent notes, you can use them to get closer to good trim. Something like "North 3Di #3, 22 knots TWS, short chop: 4.5"

 

4655.jpg

Agree with your earlier post and this as to best way - sewn white thread - to mark, and the probable purpose; but once the halyard is up, and except to slack tension if the conditions turn very light, is not the best way to adjust luff tension on the main or jib by way of a cunningham? Also agree for repeatablity that marking the cunningham line and using a measuring tape such as you show is the fastest way to get back to a general setting. that the trimmer can then adjust from as his eye and boat speed etc tell him.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In Praise of Marking Lines

Marking halyards and control lines are good for returning to ball-park settings if documented. But in the end it's going to be looking at the sail, analyzing wind and sea state and the needs of the moment (e.g. point or foot) and making those fine adjustments as required.

 

The marks on halyards perform a far more coarse purpose -- to let the pit know when the halyard is at or near the top of the hoist. During a rounding, things happen fast. The hoister may need to keep his or her attention in near focus -- to prevent a winch over-ride, maybe. Other crew may be too busy or lack a clear view of the top of the mast to call it when it's at the top.

 

If, for whatever reason, the halyard becomes difficult part-way into the hoist, the absolute fastest diagnostics can be done by the pit noticing where the hoist mark is in relation to the reference.

 

On other lines, good marks can help in set-it-and-forget-it situations. I've put marks on the mast where the butt end of the pole might be and corresponding marks on the pole lift where it should be set to make the pole level; if the butt is at the red mark on the mast and the lift is on the red mark, the pole will be level. Very helpful during roundings. Marks on the afterguy (brace) can tell you when it is eased as close as it can get to the forestay without touching. Very helpful when gybing reach-to-reach.

 

Another useful mark is jib sheet for reaching. Set it at the windward mark -- close enough. Get on with the next job. Saves a full second or more on each rounding.

 

I've spent a lot of time on 3-man keelboats and these aids can really make life easier. They help on large keelboats and dinghies too, but seem to really help in one-design keelboats (Etchells, J22, etc.) They are not necessary -- at all -- but if I am in charge of the boat on some level, I will have various marks in place. Having the ability to snap instantly into almost perfect settings can turn tight roundings into huge gains. Among other advantages, it allows you to get your head out of the boat sooner and be on your way.

 

A lot of racing involves prioritizing. Haven't we all been on boats where the priorities have become lost in the scramble to fix a problem? There is a particular boat in our fleet that, whenever there is a problem, which is several times per race, the skipper loses all perspective and the boat's course goes all to hell. What may have been a boatlength or two lost due to the problem turns into 10 or 20 boatlengths as the boat wanders off the course while trying to fix whatever the screw-up du jour is.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Up to 50% is not a problem at all.

. . .

 

Agreed the tensile strength of modern lines far exceeds service requirements. But why do something that may result in a 50% decrease when it's not necessary?

 

That was about climbing ropes.

 

They are made from different stuff and of a different construction. The stuff we use has covers which are only there to protect the cores from where and ease of handling. The covers do not contribute significantly to the ropes break strength. It's a different story in the stretchy stuff climbers use.

 

And they actually measured how many drops the rope can handle not how much tensile strength it has. The bottom line seems to be that the markng only has an effect if it is positioned at the bending point: http://cascadeclimbers.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/36729/Re_rope_marking_it_s_back

 

So it probably has more to do with wear resistance than tensile strength.

 

Don't know. The solvents in flash-drying inks can be pretty hairy stuff. Wouldn't surprise me to find that Nylon hardens and goes brittle when doused by one of them. It's strength and utility in climbing depends much on it's stretchiness for shock absorption, a quality that can be a highly perishable one in fibers.

 

If these inks did any noticeable damage to polyester and polypropylene covers on narine lines I think it would have been discovered by now, by somebody.

 

For those still worried, whip it with some thread or paint it with maxi-jacket, I guess.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

how about looking at the sail?

 

what?.....you mean pit looks forward at what they are doing when they are tailing and winching?

 

 

that could catch on.........

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

duh

 

and shit don't break that way

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

how about looking at the sail?

 

what?.....you mean pit looks forward at what they are doing when they are tailing and winching?

 

 

that could catch on.........

 

Depends on the boat, I guess.

 

On the TP I sail on occasionally, we mark the kite halyard - difficult to see whether it is all the way to the top from 25m away and with the masthead behind the square-top main and the jib.

Also, we do not have self-tailing primaries, so with four grinders the pit guy struggles to just keep up tailing, forget about checking what is happening aloft...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites