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re-psycled

3 dead in N2E

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It doesn't sound like anyone can vouch for the validity of yesterday's guy with GoPro yet???

 

the guy who posted that information doesn't need any vouching. He described the experience with clarity.

 

Exactly who are you to question him anyway?

 

You have added nothing to this site since you showed up a couple of weeks ago. Now take your hairy gray pussy and leave.

 

 

+100

Fuck off losers. Like I care what a couple drunks think of me, not. Are you in high school, or still working on that GED?

 

My my you sure are an angry little thing, aren't you. while there's more than a few obnoxious posters in this forum, you have jumped right to the head of the class in there with the veterans. basically, there is a level of tolerance for most of them, or you learn to ignore them, but in any case, there is a general peaceful coexistence. but your immediate anger suggests a good bit of experience in being an online asshole. or is it just that the menopause has fully taken over and being a mean nasty bitch is this only thing that gets you wet these days?

 

seems to me this thread was very well focused on a variety of things that related to a tragedy, whatever the cause, and you have helped to singlehandedly derail it. please, for the sake of the departed and their families, will you please go back to whatever forum it is that you came from.

Look whose angry, wow. I've spent a fair amount of time defending myself here, true. Pretty happy gal no where near menopause, so I think you're really talking about a female little closer to home and projecting it here. Sorry, not interested, some serious issues their brah, maybe lay off the Jaegermeister for awhile and calm down.

 

How some chick you don't even know on an online forum can get your panties in such a twist indicates some deep seated issues on your part that existed long before you heard the name Gray Tabby. And FYI, that's the color of the boat, not the carpet nor the drapes.

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Fuck off losers. Like I care what a couple drunks think of me, not. Are you in high school, or still working on that GED?

 

My my you sure are an angry little thing, aren't you. while there's more than a few obnoxious posters in this forum, you have jumped right to the head of the class in there with the veterans. basically, there is a level of tolerance for most of them, or you learn to ignore them, but in any case, there is a general peaceful coexistence. but your immediate anger suggests a good bit of experience in being an online asshole. or is it just that the menopause has fully taken over and being a mean nasty bitch is this only thing that gets you wet these days?

 

seems to me this thread was very well focused on a variety of things that related to a tragedy, whatever the cause, and you have helped to singlehandedly derail it. please, for the sake of the departed and their families, will you please go back to whatever forum it is that you came from.

Look whose angry, wow. I've spent a fair amount of time defending myself here, true. Pretty happy gal no where near menopause, so I think you're really talking about a female little closer to home and projecting it here. Sorry, not interested, some serious issues their brah, maybe lay off the Jaegermeister for awhile and calm down.

 

How some chick you don't even know on an online forum can get your panties in such a twist indicates some deep seated issues on your part that existed long before you heard the name Gray Tabby. And FYI, that's the color of the boat, not the carpet nor the drapes.

 

Wow - Grey Tabby is really a chick !? I NEVER would have guessed that, but her writings I thought for sure she was a adolescent kid still living in his parents basement or an emotional disturbed adult that a yacht club adopted as a good will gesture to the community - who/what ever she is, she's got a nasty personality THATS for sure -- God HELP the poor bastard that has to deal with her...

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"How 'bout those numbers on a sign on the rail? What's up with that? Pretending to be a LD racer? No numbers on the sail, hence no PH rating? No, you won't find anyone experinced putting numbers on a sign on the rail. Sorry." DoRag

I know someone will pipe up to call you a dumbass on this. I will not as you may not know the purpose... It has nothing to do with the crew or captain's experience level.

It is likely those numbers were required by the Race Committee for check in purposes and for the start and finish of the race. I have been in many races requiring all entrants to display their hull/sail numbers on the large display sign on the rail for the start and finish of the race. The sign is removed shortly after the start and re-displayed at the time of finish. I hear (though I do not know every race out there) that it is quite common.

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Fuck off losers. Like I care what a couple drunks think of me, not. Are you in high school, or still working on that GED?

 

My my you sure are an angry little thing, aren't you. while there's more than a few obnoxious posters in this forum, you have jumped right to the head of the class in there with the veterans. basically, there is a level of tolerance for most of them, or you learn to ignore them, but in any case, there is a general peaceful coexistence. but your immediate anger suggests a good bit of experience in being an online asshole. or is it just that the menopause has fully taken over and being a mean nasty bitch is this only thing that gets you wet these days?

 

seems to me this thread was very well focused on a variety of things that related to a tragedy, whatever the cause, and you have helped to singlehandedly derail it. please, for the sake of the departed and their families, will you please go back to whatever forum it is that you came from.

Look whose angry, wow. I've spent a fair amount of time defending myself here, true. Pretty happy gal no where near menopause, so I think you're really talking about a female little closer to home and projecting it here. Sorry, not interested, some serious issues their brah, maybe lay off the Jaegermeister for awhile and calm down.

 

How some chick you don't even know on an online forum can get your panties in such a twist indicates some deep seated issues on your part that existed long before you heard the name Gray Tabby. And FYI, that's the color of the boat, not the carpet nor the drapes.

 

Wow - Grey Tabby is really a chick !? I NEVER would have guessed that, but her writings I thought for sure she was a adolescent kid still living in his parents basement or an emotional disturbed adult that a yacht club adopted as a good will gesture to the community - who/what ever she is, she's got a nasty personality THATS for sure -- God HELP the poor bastard that has to deal with her...

 

What the fuck is going on with you folks. I think its a good time to start a "Fuck You! no FUCK YOU!" thread for these serious topics which degrade to this crap. Move it someplace like that. Entertaining to read as this is it is, it is kind of crappy to shit on a thread about four dead sailors who are someone's buddies, or relatives.

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. . . The radio would be on either Channel 16 or 68 listening to the chatter from other boats in the race. . .

 

Have I been missing out on something all these years? We keep our VHF on 16 and almost never hear a transmission from competitors. What are these racers chattering about?

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A real puzzler.

 

I mean it's just a fact that anyone with all those "toys" would be checking them. So somehow, they were checking them yet still hit the island.

 

 

It is as you say more or less ruled out that a person can fall overboard and still be found, days later, in the same "general area." So he must have been onboard at the time of the crash into the island.

 

If he had fallen overboard then maybe (as a severe outside chance) the other three could have been asleep. But as he didn't fall overboard -- see above -- and there's no way four people could all have ended up asleep, we are left with a mind-boggler: they must have been maintaining watch and checking their radar, GPS, charts, etc and yet still hit the island!

 

So many logical flaws!

 


  •  
  • if they had been checking all those "toys", they would not have hit the island. So the logical conclusion is: they were not checking them.
  • Absolutely no proof at all that the helmsman didn't fall overboard (or that he did fall overboard).
  • I don't believe they all fell asleep from fatigue or boredom; this race wasn't long, it was their first night out, they would be looking for the Coronados, etc. However, to say there's no way four people could all have ended up asleep ignores the carbon monoxide theory, which I still subscribe to as the most likely explanation.

 

http://www.uscgboating.org/safety/carbon_monoxide.aspx

 

The Dangers of Carbon Monoxide

 

Early symptoms of CO poisoning include irritated eyes, headache, nausea, weakness, and dizziness. They are often confused with seasickness or intoxication, so those affected may not receive the medical attention they need.

 

Altitude, certain health-related problems, and age will increase the effects of CO. Persons who smoke or are exposed to high concentrations of cigarette smoke, consume alcohol, or have lung disorders or heart problems are particularly susceptible to an increase in the effects from CO.

 

Victim and Survivor Stories

 

Two years ago on Labor Day, Claire A. Bauer-Babik's brother, Bruce "Skip" Bauer, was

enjoying a beautiful early morning northern California day on his 22-foot

inboard/outboard cabin cruiser. The day was hot. The air was still. Before he went for

his customary long swim, he started the boat so the generator would run and keep

the refrigerator cool. He said goodbye to his wife, Joyce, and slipped into the water.

Thirty minutes later he was back. Joyce heard him splashing at the side of the boat

and called out to welcome him back. He didn’t respond. She came out of the cabin

and found him hanging off the back of the boat, still in the water, arm caught in the

railing, his eyes rolled back into his head. Two minutes – maybe – had passed since

she heard his splashes.

Joyce acted fast. She got in the water and pulled Skip to the shore. She began mouth-to-mouth resuscitation on the beach. When that proved ineffective, she swam back to

the boat and dialed 911 on her cell phone. Paramedics showed up quickly. But it was

too late.

Skip, 62, had a history of heart problems. But the mandatory autopsy showed that he

had an incredibly high level of carbon monoxide (CO) in his body. Joyce thinks he only

took a few breaths.

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Most likely except for zero evidence, unless a boat crashing is considered to be evidence specifically for CO poisoning. That would be a new principle though.

 

No, it's Ninjas, I tell you. Though we shouldn't dismiss the theory from The Brain of Australia that it was a gas cloud from an oil rig. While totally unsupported by any evidence, clearly that is not important, is it now?

 

No one has ever fallen asleep (without poisoning) during only the first night of a trip they intended to stay awake, one of the excellent points you make. So that is ruled out.

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Most likely except for zero evidence, unless a boat crashing is considered to be evidence specifically for CO poisoning. That would be a new principle though.

 

  • We must fall back upon the old axiom that when all other contingencies fail, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.
  • improbable as it is, all other explanations are more improbable still.
  • There should be no combination of events for which the wit of man cannot conceive an explanation.

Sherlock Holmes

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Most likely except for zero evidence, unless a boat crashing is considered to be evidence specifically for CO poisoning. That would be a new principle though.

 

No, it's Ninjas, I tell you.

 

No one has ever fallen asleep during only the first night of a trip they intended to stay awake, one of the excellent points you make. So that is ruled out. Therefore: Ninjas.

 

Wouldn't CO poisoning show up in the Autopsy and Toxicology report? How well was the Autopsy's done ?

 

I do believe this could be a very outside possibility -- I did read that they had put in a new engine very recently, but this was a diesel - is the CO as bad as with a gasoline exhaust ? And wouldn't the smell from Diesel exhaust be noticeable (it is to me), but Carbon Monoxide from gasoline is not as noticeable -- still lots of questions

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Most likely except for zero evidence, unless a boat crashing is considered to be evidence specifically for CO poisoning. That would be a new principle though.

 

  • We must fall back upon the old axiom that when all other contingencies fail, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.
  • improbable as it is, all other explanations are more improbable still.
  • There should be no combination of events for which the wit of man cannot conceive an explanation.

Sherlock Holmes

 

Exactly, the contingencies that the skipper could have just fallen asleep -- without CO poisoning for which there is zero evidence -- or fallen overboard have absolutely failed. No damn way!

 

You're right, I agree completely.

 

It's CO poisoning therefore. Or, as there is no report of CO poisoning, then Ninjas is certainly not impossible you must agree? "However improbable," as you point out, just does not matter.

 

Fine work, Sherlock!

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Four experienced sailors. All the latest state-of-the-art electronics: Radar, MARPA, GPS, SPOT, VHF, AIS, Autopilot, EPIRB and for sure a compass. A brand new engine that kept working right up to hitting the island. Functioning SPOT that sent "OK' messages right up to 7:00 but nothing after that and which also kept working right up to hitting the island. Slight course adjustment around 10:00 but no messages sent on the SPOT. Both the SPOT and engine reached the island, so probably the boat and crew did too.

 

Anyone with all those toys would be checking them and comparing them against the progress. He would have been checking the AIS app he had on his iPad, checking the GPS and radar, checking the compass to make sure the autopilot is doing its job. The radio would be on either Channel 16 or 68 listening to the chatter from other boats in the race. He would have been paying attention to how the new engine was working. They would have been checking the charts and what track they took when they won the race two previous times.

 

Even if there was a general failure of all the electronics, the compass would still work. The SPOT and iPad ran on batteries. They all had cell phones and weren't that far from land - 7 miles off shore and not that far from the border.

 

Finding the captain's body in the same general area as the other three more or less rules out that he fell overboard. A collision with another boat has been ruled out.

 

A plethoria of scenarios have been posed but none quite explains how that boat ran into that island. Even if they didn't see it by simply looking, the radar, GPS, MARPA and AIS would have seen it.

 

Wonder if they'll ever figure it out.

 

You say "four experienced" sailors. How do you know that?

 

It is very hard to me to understand how this could happen to an experienced crew. It just doesn't add up.

 

So, how do you know about the experience of these folks? According to the press, you have a few statements around that, but do the folks making those statements really understand what consitutes valid "experience?'

 

For example, note the former crew memeber that backed out. He said they previously "kicked ass" and won the Ensenada Race. Looking a bit deeper, we find they "won" the NASBOAT class. That certainly does not qualify for "experience," but will get you a cub scout merit badge.

 

As for the skipper's alleged CG 100T license, maybe, but let's wait for the investigation to validate that.

 

Let's look at the pics of the boat before the start. Anything peculiar there? Well, the ensign is way out of proportion for the length of the vessel, thereby breaking a very, very longstanding naval tradition. an experienced person would see that in a heartbeat. How 'bout those numbers on a sign on the rail? What's up with that? Pretending to be a LD racer? No numbers on the sail, hence no PH rating? No, you won't find anyone experinced putting numbers on a sign on the rail. Sorry.

 

So, let's wait for the outcome of the investigation before concluding they were experienced in a revelvant way.

 

 

i've seen lot's of race boats with too small an ensign - in fact nearly every one

 

numbers on the lifelines - Cruising boats that race often do this. I'm pretty sure that the Marion-Bermuda Race requires it, even when the boat has sail numbers. the cloth is referred to as a "weathercloth", and is usually back at the cokpit.

 

003.JPG?width=737&height=523

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It is likely those numbers were required by the Race Committee for check in purposes and for the start and finish of the race. I have been in many races requiring all entrants to display their hull/sail numbers on the large display sign on the rail for the start and finish of the race. The sign is removed shortly after the start and re-displayed at the time of finish. I hear (though I do not know every race out there) that it is quite common.[/size]

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Sorry but no. Check in is by hailing your "sail" number to the check in boat. NOSA allows boats in the NASBOAT class to display their "sail" numbers from the lifelines because many can't/don't want to have sail numbers put on their sails. Must be too expensive to have a sailmaker do that...it'd take money out of the fuel and autopilot funds.

 

http://www.nosa.org/assets/SI-2012-Amended.pdf

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It is likely those numbers were required by the Race Committee for check in purposes and for the start and finish of the race. I have been in many races requiring all entrants to display their hull/sail numbers on the large display sign on the rail for the start and finish of the race. The sign is removed shortly after the start and re-displayed at the time of finish. I hear (though I do not know every race out there) that it is quite common.[/size]

[/color][/font]

Sorry but no. Check in is by hailing your "sail" number to the check in boat. NOSA allows boats in the NASBOAT class to display their "sail" numbers from the lifelines because many can't/don't want to have sail numbers put on their sails. Must be too expensive to have a sailmaker do that...it'd take money out of the fuel and autopilot funds.

 

Wow, that is odd, odd, odd. Well if that is the case for that race, I stand corrected.

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. . . The radio would be on either Channel 16 or 68 listening to the chatter from other boats in the race. . .

 

Have I been missing out on something all these years? We keep our VHF on 16 and almost never hear a transmission from competitors. What are these racers chattering about?

 

I also mentioned channel 68, which is where the "chattering" would be taking place - not channel 16. It is not unusual to have a ship's radio attached to an antenna on the mast (that would be on channel 16) and a handheld that would have been on channel 68. Not going to speculate what the chatter was about.

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So, how do you know about the experience of these folks? According to the press, you have a few statements around that, but do the folks making those statements really understand what consitutes valid "experience?'

 

For example, note the former crew memeber that backed out. He said they previously "kicked ass" and won the Ensenada Race. Looking a bit deeper, we find they "won" the NASBOAT class. That certainly does not qualify for "experience," but will get you a cub scout merit badge.

 

As for the skipper's alleged CG 100T license, maybe, but let's wait for the investigation to validate that.

 

There's been several stories in the news about the captain's extensive experience. He's originally from Greece, his father was a sailor and taught him to sail when he was a boy. According to his daughter, he's been sailing all his life. The news also reported he had a 100T license. Doubtful they'd make that up. The crew member who backed out did so because his mother fell ill, but he was a long time participant in the race and was there when they won the race the other 2 times. He's in the Ensenada pictures at the award ceremonies. One of the deceased crew was the brother-in-law of the captain and they'd been sailing together for years. The "newest" member of the crew had participated in several races as crew on the Aegean.

 

Check out the flag halyard in the picture of the boat. Those aren't yacht club burgies.

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The skipper's injuries and location are consistent with the crews injuries and location, and therefore he probably did NOT fall OB.

 

As far as CO poisoning, it's not usually caused by diesel engines; it's caused by gas, such as propane, eating up the oxygen. Some people (especially those with lots of toys) use gas generators (does anyone know if there was one onboard?), and propane cookers and heaters, common on lots of boats, and much more likely to cause CO poisoning. Still seems unlikely that whomever was in the cockpit would be affected.

 

The consistency of course and speed, and the abruptness to which both ended, suggests one thing. Occam's razor. No real mystery here. Has anyone considered that alcohol or recreational drugs could've played a part in this scenario? I hope not, but it's a possibility I haven't seen discussed, and if has, for God's sake call me out now and don't let a chance slip by to swat me down. tongue.gif

 

 

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Four experienced sailors. All the latest state-of-the-art electronics: Radar, MARPA, GPS, SPOT, VHF, AIS, Autopilot, EPIRB and for sure a compass. A brand new engine that kept working right up to hitting the island. Functioning SPOT that sent "OK' messages right up to 7:00 but nothing after that and which also kept working right up to hitting the island. Slight course adjustment around 10:00 but no messages sent on the SPOT. Both the SPOT and engine reached the island, so probably the boat and crew did too.

 

Anyone with all those toys would be checking them and comparing them against the progress. He would have been checking the AIS app he had on his iPad, checking the GPS and radar, checking the compass to make sure the autopilot is doing its job. The radio would be on either Channel 16 or 68 listening to the chatter from other boats in the race. He would have been paying attention to how the new engine was working. They would have been checking the charts and what track they took when they won the race two previous times.

 

Even if there was a general failure of all the electronics, the compass would still work. The SPOT and iPad ran on batteries. They all had cell phones and weren't that far from land - 7 miles off shore and not that far from the border.

 

Finding the captain's body in the same general area as the other three more or less rules out that he fell overboard. A collision with another boat has been ruled out.

 

A plethoria of scenarios have been posed but none quite explains how that boat ran into that island. Even if they didn't see it by simply looking, the radar, GPS, MARPA and AIS would have seen it.

 

Wonder if they'll ever figure it out.

A real puzzler.

 

I mean it's just a fact that anyone with all those "toys" would be checking them. So somehow, they were checking them yet still hit the island.

 

 

It is as you say more or less ruled out that a person can fall overboard and still be found, days later, in the same "general area." So he must have been onboard at the time of the crash into the island.

 

If he had fallen overboard then maybe (as a severe outside chance) the other three could have been asleep. But as he didn't fall overboard -- see above -- and there's no way four people could all have ended up asleep, we are left with a mind-boggler: they must have been maintaining watch and checking their radar, GPS, charts, etc and yet still hit the island!

 

In further news: OJ didn't do it.

 

I can't read CG charts, but here's a chart of the CG's search of the area (and the link to the original) Maybe someone here can interpret it.

 

post-61866-032445600 1336584476_thumb.jpg

 

http://cgvi.uscg.mil..._itemId=1612780

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Most likely except for zero evidence, unless a boat crashing is considered to be evidence specifically for CO poisoning. That would be a new principle though.

 

No, it's Ninjas, I tell you.

 

No one has ever fallen asleep during only the first night of a trip they intended to stay awake, one of the excellent points you make. So that is ruled out. Therefore: Ninjas.

 

Wouldn't CO poisoning show up in the Autopsy and Toxicology report? How well was the Autopsy's done ?

 

I do believe this could be a very outside possibility -- I did read that they had put in a new engine very recently, but this was a diesel - is the CO as bad as with a gasoline exhaust ? And wouldn't the smell from Diesel exhaust be noticeable (it is to me), but Carbon Monoxide from gasoline is not as noticeable -- still lots of questions

 

And can anyone point to a case of CO posioning occuring in open air as presumeably at least one crew would be in every scenario on the table.

 

CO posioning is dependent on concentration and time. I can't see how the level of CO in the cockpit of a sailboat on the open ocean would ever get high enough even allowing for a long exposure.

 

Certainly possible for the off watch however many there were down below, but I'm not aware of any case where people standing/sitting outside have fallen victim to CO posioning.

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Four experienced sailors. All the latest state-of-the-art electronics: Radar, MARPA, GPS, SPOT, VHF, AIS, Autopilot, EPIRB and for sure a compass. A brand new engine that kept working right up to hitting the island. Functioning SPOT that sent "OK' messages right up to 7:00 but nothing after that and which also kept working right up to hitting the island. Slight course adjustment around 10:00 but no messages sent on the SPOT. Both the SPOT and engine reached the island, so probably the boat and crew did too.

 

Anyone with all those toys would be checking them and comparing them against the progress. He would have been checking the AIS app he had on his iPad, checking the GPS and radar, checking the compass to make sure the autopilot is doing its job. The radio would be on either Channel 16 or 68 listening to the chatter from other boats in the race. He would have been paying attention to how the new engine was working. They would have been checking the charts and what track they took when they won the race two previous times.

 

Even if there was a general failure of all the electronics, the compass would still work. The SPOT and iPad ran on batteries. They all had cell phones and weren't that far from land - 7 miles off shore and not that far from the border.

 

Finding the captain's body in the same general area as the other three more or less rules out that he fell overboard. A collision with another boat has been ruled out.

 

A plethoria of scenarios have been posed but none quite explains how that boat ran into that island. Even if they didn't see it by simply looking, the radar, GPS, MARPA and AIS would have seen it.

 

Wonder if they'll ever figure it out.

Nice post. And yes, not only was he found in the same general area, but his body was in the same general shape as the other's, which indicates the same cause of passing at the same time.

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Regarding numbers on weather cloths . . .

 

Newport to Bermuda race rule ;

 

"4.01.2 Sail numbers and letters of the size carried on the mainsail must be displayed by alternative means when none of the numbered sails is set."

 

Basically the idea is if you are bare pole or dis-masted or just under storm jib (with no numbers) they still want sail number displayed so the vessel can be identified. Sail numbers on weather cloths is the standard way to do that.

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Regarding numbers on weather cloths . . .

 

Newport to Bermuda race rule ;

 

"4.01.2 Sail numbers and letters of the size carried on the mainsail must be displayed by alternative means when none of the numbered sails is set."

 

Basically the idea is if you are bare pole or dis-masted or just under storm jib (with no numbers) they still want sail number displayed so the vessel can be identified. Sail numbers on weather cloths is the standard way to do that.

 

Clearly Dumb Rag is such an experienced offshore racer that he has never had to prep a boat to meet the Special Regs.

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Diesels don't tend to produce much carbon monoxide.

 

Carbon monoxide production results principally from a below or approximately stoichiometric air/fuel ratio resulting in not every carbon atom being fully oxidized. In other words, not every carbon atom is oxidized fully to CO2, but only to CO. Gasoline engines typically operate in air/fuel regimes such as this.

 

Diesel engines run unthrottled and typically have an excess of air to fuel: and always have an excess of air to fuel when at part power. For this reason their CO production is less than 10% that of gasoline engines. Usually the difference is even greater.

 

Really, the invisible meteor from Neptune seems more likely than, and surely just as supported as, incapacitating open-air cockpit CO poisoning from a 36 hp Diesel at cruise on a sailboat.

 

But hey, all else is impossible! Or as Sherlock Holmes tells us via Smoothsail, the "contingencies fail!" Therefore, "no matter how improbable" and no matter the utter lack of supporting evidence it almost surely has to be the invisible meteor, or the CO, or Ninjas. (Also invisible.) Fell asleep without any of these being necessary or fell overboard? Absurd. Ruled out.

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Four experienced sailors. All the latest state-of-the-art electronics: Radar, MARPA, GPS, SPOT, VHF, AIS, Autopilot, EPIRB and for sure a compass. A brand new engine that kept working right up to hitting the island. Functioning SPOT that sent "OK' messages right up to 7:00 but nothing after that and which also kept working right up to hitting the island. Slight course adjustment around 10:00 but no messages sent on the SPOT. Both the SPOT and engine reached the island, so probably the boat and crew did too.

 

Anyone with all those toys would be checking them and comparing them against the progress. He would have been checking the AIS app he had on his iPad, checking the GPS and radar, checking the compass to make sure the autopilot is doing its job. The radio would be on either Channel 16 or 68 listening to the chatter from other boats in the race. He would have been paying attention to how the new engine was working. They would have been checking the charts and what track they took when they won the race two previous times.

 

Even if there was a general failure of all the electronics, the compass would still work. The SPOT and iPad ran on batteries. They all had cell phones and weren't that far from land - 7 miles off shore and not that far from the border.

 

Finding the captain's body in the same general area as the other three more or less rules out that he fell overboard. A collision with another boat has been ruled out.

 

A plethoria of scenarios have been posed but none quite explains how that boat ran into that island. Even if they didn't see it by simply looking, the radar, GPS, MARPA and AIS would have seen it.

 

Wonder if they'll ever figure it out.

Nice post.

 

Get a room.

 

 

 

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Regarding numbers on weather cloths . . .

 

Newport to Bermuda race rule ;

 

"4.01.2 Sail numbers and letters of the size carried on the mainsail must be displayed by alternative means when none of the numbered sails is set."

 

Basically the idea is if you are bare pole or dis-masted or just under storm jib (with no numbers) they still want sail number displayed so the vessel can be identified. Sail numbers on weather cloths is the standard way to do that.

 

Clearly Dumb Rag is such an experienced offshore racer that he has never had to prep a boat to meet the Special Regs.

 

 

+1

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You say "four experienced" sailors. How do you know that?

All DoRag's points to support this are valid.

I was going to bring it up but decided it wasn't worth the pain it might cause the surviving family members.

 

Having talked with thousands of non-sailors over the years, I've come to disregard almost all of their observations about the ability of a skipper/crew and about wind and sea states.

 

"Experienced" means "Been to sea maybe an hour more than the person saying 'experienced'."

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Finding the captain's body in the same general area as the other three more or less rules out that he fell overboard.

 

 

Hardly.....current could have taken the body some distance in the days that it was in the water.

 

The body could've been on the bottom or wedged in some underwater rocks (or in the sunken boat) and not affected by current. The injuries are the same as the crews, which means he was likely with them when they impacted the rocks.

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the ensign is way out of proportion for the length of the vessel,

 

Wow -- now that is 'picking nits'

 

Maybe they lost theirs sailing the week before, and borrowed one from a buddy with a bigger boat for the race...... who the heck knows, but that would be the last reason to question his skills

No. You're missing the forest for the trees.

It all adds up to a larger picture which belies "experience".

 

It's one step removed from the person who is going sailing so he runs off and rents a pirate costume for the weekend and struts around the office all day Friday spewing "Arrrgggg!"

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Most likely except for zero evidence, unless a boat crashing is considered to be evidence specifically for CO poisoning. That would be a new principle though.

 

No, it's Ninjas, I tell you.

 

No one has ever fallen asleep during only the first night of a trip they intended to stay awake, one of the excellent points you make. So that is ruled out. Therefore: Ninjas.

 

Wouldn't CO poisoning show up in the Autopsy and Toxicology report? How well was the Autopsy's done ?

 

I do believe this could be a very outside possibility -- I did read that they had put in a new engine very recently, but this was a diesel - is the CO as bad as with a gasoline exhaust ? And wouldn't the smell from Diesel exhaust be noticeable (it is to me), but Carbon Monoxide from gasoline is not as noticeable -- still lots of questions

 

Diesel exhaust has a much lower CO content than gasoline engine exhaust. Someone a few hundred posts back listed the different levels but you can probably Google it.

 

The first two bodies' COD was listed as 'trauma', while the third was 'trauma and drowning'. The fourth has not been listed yet, but much more time has passed so it's probably harder to determine. No mention of CO.

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It is likely those numbers were required by the Race Committee for check in purposes and for the start and finish of the race.

Or not. lol.gif

 

If you're going to make weird claims you JUST MIGHT want to, you know, look at the SIs, which are online, or looks at pictures of the other 215 boats...

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You say "four experienced" sailors. How do you know that?

All DoRag's points to support this are valid.

I was going to bring it up but decided it wasn't worth the pain it might cause the surviving family members.

 

Having talked with thousands of non-sailors over the years, I've come to disregard almost all of their observations about the ability of a skipper/crew and about wind and sea states.

 

"Experienced" means "Been to sea maybe an hour more than the person saying 'experienced'."

 

The amount of their sailing experience is largely irrelevant. Experience refers to the ability of a sailor to deal with adverse wind and sea conditions based on prior knowledge. In this case they were under power in relatively ideal wind and sea conditions with good visibility.

 

All we know for sure is that 9 sailors died last month on he west coast. This points out that life is uncertain and that the sea we all love can be cruel (sort of like a beautiful frigid woman). We should all be a little nicer to the people we meet and a little wamer to the people we love.

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And can anyone point to a case of CO posioning occuring in open air as presumeably at least one crew would be in every scenario on the table.

 

CO posioning is dependent on concentration and time. I can't see how the level of CO in the cockpit of a sailboat on the open ocean would ever get high enough even allowing for a long exposure.

 

Certainly possible for the off watch however many there were down below, but I'm not aware of any case where people standing/sitting outside have fallen victim to CO posioning.

 

Assuming for a moment that dangerous levels of CO are only possible below deck (which isn't true), assume further that three went below to sack out; at some point, the on-watch helmsman goes below to check something and is also overcome by fumes. This was a new engine.

 

Where CO May Accumulate

 

  • Inadequately ventilated canvas enclosures.
  • Exhaust gas trapped in enclosed places.
  • "Station wagon effect" or back drafting.

 

To say that "the invisible meteor from Neptune (or Ninjas) seems more likely" than CO poisoning is total bullshit.

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Most likely except for zero evidence, unless a boat crashing is considered to be evidence specifically for CO poisoning. That would be a new principle though.

 

No, it's Ninjas, I tell you.

 

No one has ever fallen asleep during only the first night of a trip they intended to stay awake, one of the excellent points you make. So that is ruled out. Therefore: Ninjas.

 

Wouldn't CO poisoning show up in the Autopsy and Toxicology report? How well was the Autopsy's done ?

 

I do believe this could be a very outside possibility -- I did read that they had put in a new engine very recently, but this was a diesel - is the CO as bad as with a gasoline exhaust ? And wouldn't the smell from Diesel exhaust be noticeable (it is to me), but Carbon Monoxide from gasoline is not as noticeable -- still lots of questions

 

Diesel exhaust has a much lower CO content than gasoline engine exhaust. Someone a few hundred posts back listed the different levels but you can probably Google it.

 

The first two bodies' COD was listed as 'trauma', while the third was 'trauma and drowning'. The fourth has not been listed yet, but much more time has passed so it's probably harder to determine. No mention of CO.

 

Body found near Coronado Islands ID'd as Redondo Beach skipper

By Larry Altman Staff WriterPosted: 05/08/2012 06:08:21 AM PDTUpdated: 05/08/2012 05:22:09 PM PDT

<a href="

http://www.contracostatimes.com/portlet/article/html/imageDisplay.jsp?contentItemRelationshipId=4395858" target="_new" style="text-decoration: none; outline-style: none; outline-width: initial; outline-color: initial; cursor: pointer; ">20120501_083532_yacht01a_400.jpg
This Friday, April 27, 2012, photo shows the Aegean with crew members at the start of a 125-mile Newport Beach, Calif. to Ensenada, Mexico yacht race. The 37-foot Aegean, carrying a crew of four, was reported missing Saturday, the U.S. Coast Guard said. The yacht appeared to have collided at night with a much larger vessel, leaving three crew members dead and one missing, The Newport Ocean Sailing Association said Sunday, April 29. Race officials believe there are few other possibilities for what caused the accident. (AP Photo/newportbeach.patch.com, Susan Hoffman) MANDATORY CREDIT; LINK TO STORY:
http://patch.com/A-sPbD (Susan Hoffman)

Coroner's officials have identified a body found floating in the ocean near the Coronado Islands as a Redondo Beach boat captain missing since last week, a family member said Tuesday.

 

The San Diego County Medical Examiner's Office said Theo Mavromatis, 49, died of multiple blunt force injuries.

 

 

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I don't believe they all fell asleep from fatigue or boredom; this race wasn't long, it was their first night out,

Faulty conclusion. As anyone who has done even a modest amount of distance racing can attest, the first night is the most likely time for falling asleep on watch. The crew is coming fresh from a routine of going to bed and waking up at or about the same time for months and years on end. The routine of keeping scheduled watches has not had time to overcome the conditioning of more-or-less stable bed times at home. Add to this four middle-age men who have done this before, so it is unlikely the adrenaline rush will be keeping them jacked-up like it may for an enthusiastic teen.

 

 

 

... they would be looking for the Coronados, etc. However, to say there's no way four people could all have ended up asleep ignores the carbon monoxide theory, which I still subscribe to as the most likely explanation.

I can't see asphyxia or CO poisoning in a cockpit open to fresh air on 3 sides.

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The first two bodies' COD was listed as 'trauma', while the third was 'trauma and drowning'. The fourth has not been listed yet, but much more time has passed so it's probably harder to determine. No mention of CO.

 

Blunt force trauma and drowning could have happened to people who are already unconscious.

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It is likely those numbers were required by the Race Committee for check in purposes and for the start and finish of the race.

Or not. lol.gif

 

If you're going to make weird claims you JUST MIGHT want to, you know, look at the SIs, which are online, or looks at pictures of the other 215 boats...

 

Note, there are no weird claims here. Read my whole post. I clearly stated my case and I am not looking for a pissing match.

As for the SI's I also clearly stated that I was not familiar with the specifics of this race, just requirements of some of the races I have been a part of.

 

Side note, for a boat running the engine from 8pm until 8am, is it possible that the skipper put the numbers on the lifelines to be identifiable from a distance while sails are down? If this was the case, this is not a piece of evidence which would point to a lack of experience. There may be other things that may indicate lack of experience, but this ain't it!

 

The thing that might show the lack of experience would be setting a course which will track directly through a giant rock, whether you plan to be awake at the time you'd like to change course or not. This looks like the beginning of the whole series of unfortunate incidents.

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And can anyone point to a case of CO posioning occuring in open air as presumeably at least one crew would be in every scenario on the table.

 

CO posioning is dependent on concentration and time. I can't see how the level of CO in the cockpit of a sailboat on the open ocean would ever get high enough even allowing for a long exposure.

 

Certainly possible for the off watch however many there were down below, but I'm not aware of any case where people standing/sitting outside have fallen victim to CO posioning.

 

Assuming for a moment that dangerous levels of CO are only possible below deck (which isn't true), assume further that three went below to sack out; at some point, the on-watch helmsman goes below to check something and is also overcome by fumes. This was a new engine.

 

Where CO May Accumulate

 

  • Inadequately ventilated canvas enclosures.
  • Exhaust gas trapped in enclosed places.
  • "Station wagon effect" or back drafting.

 

To say that "the invisible meteor from Neptune (or Ninjas) seems more likely" than CO poisoning is total bullshit.

Point to your trace of evidence that it happened, or that CO poisoning from diesels on sailboats while underway has incapacitated an entire crew.

 

Not your theories and extrapolations: evidence.

 

Do you know the difference? It seems you don't.

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The first two bodies' COD was listed as 'trauma', while the third was 'trauma and drowning'. The fourth has not been listed yet, but much more time has passed so it's probably harder to determine. No mention of CO.

 

Blunt force trauma and drowning could have happened to people who are already unconscious.

 

 

I mentioned that about 9 million posts ago. But the chemists here kinda swayed me to the fact that diesel exhaust poisoning was a near impossiblity.

 

I'll take their word for it, since I'm just a fuking carpenter....

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Most likely except for zero evidence, unless a boat crashing is considered to be evidence specifically for CO poisoning. That would be a new principle though.

 

No, it's Ninjas, I tell you.

 

No one has ever fallen asleep during only the first night of a trip they intended to stay awake, one of the excellent points you make. So that is ruled out. Therefore: Ninjas.

 

Wouldn't CO poisoning show up in the Autopsy and Toxicology report? How well was the Autopsy's done ?

 

I do believe this could be a very outside possibility -- I did read that they had put in a new engine very recently, but this was a diesel - is the CO as bad as with a gasoline exhaust ? And wouldn't the smell from Diesel exhaust be noticeable (it is to me), but Carbon Monoxide from gasoline is not as noticeable -- still lots of questions

 

Diesel exhaust has a much lower CO content than gasoline engine exhaust. Someone a few hundred posts back listed the different levels but you can probably Google it.

 

The first two bodies' COD was listed as 'trauma', while the third was 'trauma and drowning'. The fourth has not been listed yet, but much more time has passed so it's probably harder to determine. No mention of CO.

 

 

I agree -- and yes the death was listed caused by "Trauma" but I wonder if they might have had traces of CO and passed out first and not died due to it.

 

I know I know... grasping at straws - especially due to Diesel producing 10% of the CO that gas engine does (as per what someone else posted)..... it does not take much too make someone "woosy" I was a victim of just a slight CO wooziness once and its amazing how it can incapacitate you, even if it doesn't kill you

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The boat owner, Theo Mavromatis, a licensed captain, was sailing in his 7th N2E race, winning his class twice, and he had been sailing since he was a little boy. The Aegean's crew had raced together four times and cruised for years together as well, one was reportedly doing his third N2E. There is really nothing to indicate that a lack of experience was a factor, including the fact that this cruz boat carried its numbers on a weather cloth rather than on a sail. Back when there were 500 or 600 boats in the race this was a lot more common, but you still see boats in the cruz classes doing this. Indeed, check out the pictures linked from the NOSA site.

 

The N2E is a fun race with an emphasis on camaraderie. There is a serious competitive component, but most crews are primarily out to have a good time. It might seem lame but this is why the cruz classes began to be allowed to use their engines a few years ago. With So Cal's notoriously light air at night, too many crews were missing the Sunday night party, and even missing the Monday cutoff. Not much camaraderie to be found while bobbing around off Puerto Nuevo during the awards ceremony. Still, the experience level is generally high and in support of this it should be noted once again that these are the first fatalities in the race's 65 year history.

 

It's hard to imagine the entire crew falling asleep while the boat continued on autopilot directly into N. Coronado, but this is the simplest and therefore most likely explanation.

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Most likely except for zero evidence, unless a boat crashing is considered to be evidence specifically for CO poisoning. That would be a new principle though.

 

No, it's Ninjas, I tell you.

 

No one has ever fallen asleep during only the first night of a trip they intended to stay awake, one of the excellent points you make. So that is ruled out. Therefore: Ninjas.

 

Wouldn't CO poisoning show up in the Autopsy and Toxicology report? How well was the Autopsy's done ?

 

I do believe this could be a very outside possibility -- I did read that they had put in a new engine very recently, but this was a diesel - is the CO as bad as with a gasoline exhaust ? And wouldn't the smell from Diesel exhaust be noticeable (it is to me), but Carbon Monoxide from gasoline is not as noticeable -- still lots of questions

 

Diesel exhaust has a much lower CO content than gasoline engine exhaust. Someone a few hundred posts back listed the different levels but you can probably Google it.

 

The first two bodies' COD was listed as 'trauma', while the third was 'trauma and drowning'. The fourth has not been listed yet, but much more time has passed so it's probably harder to determine. No mention of CO.

 

 

I agree -- and yes the death was listed caused by "Trauma" but I wonder if they might have had traces of CO and passed out first and not died due to it.

 

I know I know... grasping at straws - especially due to Diesel producing 10% of the CO that gas engine does (as per what someone else posted)..... it does not take much too make someone "woosy" I was a victim of just a slight CO wooziness once and its amazing how it can incapacitate you, even if it doesn't kill you

 

WHY wonder about that?

 

because it's sooooooo impossible to fall asleep or fall overboard?

 

Huh! Never happens!

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Most likely except for zero evidence, unless a boat crashing is considered to be evidence specifically for CO poisoning. That would be a new principle though.

 

No, it's Ninjas, I tell you.

 

No one has ever fallen asleep during only the first night of a trip they intended to stay awake, one of the excellent points you make. So that is ruled out. Therefore: Ninjas.

 

Wouldn't CO poisoning show up in the Autopsy and Toxicology report? How well was the Autopsy's done ?

 

I do believe this could be a very outside possibility -- I did read that they had put in a new engine very recently, but this was a diesel - is the CO as bad as with a gasoline exhaust ? And wouldn't the smell from Diesel exhaust be noticeable (it is to me), but Carbon Monoxide from gasoline is not as noticeable -- still lots of questions

 

Diesel exhaust has a much lower CO content than gasoline engine exhaust. Someone a few hundred posts back listed the different levels but you can probably Google it.

 

The first two bodies' COD was listed as 'trauma', while the third was 'trauma and drowning'. The fourth has not been listed yet, but much more time has passed so it's probably harder to determine. No mention of CO.

 

 

I agree -- and yes the death was listed caused by "Trauma" but I wonder if they might have had traces of CO and passed out first and not died due to it.

 

I know I know... grasping at straws - especially due to Diesel producing 10% of the CO that gas engine does (as per what someone else posted)..... it does not take much too make someone "woosy" I was a victim of just a slight CO wooziness once and its amazing how it can incapacitate you, even if it doesn't kill you

 

WHY wonder about that?

 

because it's sooooooo impossible to fall asleep or fall overboard?

 

Huh! Never happens!

 

Nope - never said that. In fact more than once I have posited those same exact theories (fall asleep or fall overboard)

 

Just throwing something else out there - probably in the hope that it was caused by a flaw or terrible accident as opposed to human error :(

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Finding the captain's body in the same general area as the other three more or less rules out that he fell overboard.

 

 

Hardly.....current could have taken the body some distance in the days that it was in the water.

 

The body could've been on the bottom or wedged in some underwater rocks (or in the sunken boat) and not affected by current. The injuries are the same as the crews, which means he was likely with them when they impacted the rocks.

 

I agree re your statement on the skipper having possibly being on the bottom, in the boat etc....or he may not have been just as well.....when I wrote my comment yesterday, I wasn't aware of the fact that he had similar injuries compared to the other crew. Without that piece of info, you can see how one could reasonably come to the conclusion that you couldn't rule out the skipper falling over the side prior to the grounding (if indeed has was on deck keeping watch) simply because he was found in the same area that the others were found. Now, with the benefit of more info, we can perhaps come to a different conclusion, albeit still not definitive, as to whether or not he fell over the side prior to the grounding.

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A story from back when I was in aircraft mechanic school: Bob, my airframe instructor was a Pan Am 727 flight engineer that due to bypass surgery was temporarily grounded. At one point back when he was flying, he had had enough of a particular captain and copilot who routinely both fell asleep while flying, leaving him the only person awake.

 

Now in those days GPS did not exist. A major method for navigation was VOR's, which worked off of radio station signals. The instrument would show your course relative to a selected station, either as your degrees TO or FROM that station. You could view either as TO or FROM by toggling the switch.

 

As you passed over the station, the instrument would flip from TO to FROM.

 

So, one flight to New York when the pilots -- experienced of course -- both fell asleep again, Bob reset the VOR's. Now everything was FROM instead of TO. He then put himself into a sleeping pose, and fake snored / snorted very loudly so as to wake the other two up.

 

They were flying above total cloud cover, so there was no seeing land.

 

So on seeing the instruments the pilots immediately determined, to their alarm, that they had overshot New York and were now over the Atlantic Ocean, and were about to turn the 727 around. Only at this point did Bob inform them that he'd flipped the VOR's and that he had had it with their falling asleep.

 

Don't assume that "experienced" means that 3 out of 4 might not choose to sleep, and the 4th just couldn't possibly fall asleep (or fall overboard.)

 

Why are people having trouble here? They just have to find a thing to blame? Or other people, such as another ship? Why reach for the implausible, utterly unsupported, and utterly unnecessary?

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The boat owner, Theo Mavromatis, a licensed captain, was sailing in his 7th N2E race, winning his class twice, and he had been sailing since he was a little boy. The Aegean's crew had raced together four times and cruised for years together as well, one was reportedly doing his third N2E. There is really nothing to indicate that a lack of experience was a factor, including the fact that this cruz boat carried its numbers on a weather cloth rather than on a sail. Back when there were 500 or 600 boats in the race this was a lot more common, but you still see boats in the cruz classes doing this. Indeed, check out the pictures linked from the NOSA site.

 

The N2E is a fun race with an emphasis on camaraderie. There is a serious competitive component, but most crews are primarily out to have a good time. It might seem lame but this is why the cruz classes began to be allowed to use their engines a few years ago. With So Cal's notoriously light air at night, too many crews were missing the Sunday night party, and even missing the Monday cutoff. Not much camaraderie to be found while bobbing around off Puerto Nuevo during the awards ceremony. Still, the experience level is generally high and in support of this it should be noted once again that these are the first fatalities in the race's 65 year history.

 

It's hard to imagine the entire crew falling asleep while the boat continued on autopilot directly into N. Coronado, but this is the simplest and therefore most likely explanation.

 

It's not hard to imagine. People fall asleep flying airplanes. Driving cars. The problem of night watches falling asleep or becoming extremely inattentive is a well known problem, especially when just monitoring a system and not actively operating it.

 

Might have simply been laid out on the seats looking up at the stars.

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And can anyone point to a case of CO posioning occuring in open air as presumeably at least one crew would be in every scenario on the table.

 

CO posioning is dependent on concentration and time. I can't see how the level of CO in the cockpit of a sailboat on the open ocean would ever get high enough even allowing for a long exposure.

 

Certainly possible for the off watch however many there were down below, but I'm not aware of any case where people standing/sitting outside have fallen victim to CO posioning.

 

Assuming for a moment that dangerous levels of CO are only possible below deck (which isn't true), assume further that three went below to sack out; at some point, the on-watch helmsman goes below to check something and is also overcome by fumes. This was a new engine.

 

Where CO May Accumulate

 

  • Inadequately ventilated canvas enclosures.
  • Exhaust gas trapped in enclosed places.
  • "Station wagon effect" or back drafting.

 

To say that "the invisible meteor from Neptune (or Ninjas) seems more likely" than CO poisoning is total bullshit.

 

 

Yeah, backdrafting into a stationwagon (enclosed), truck (enclosed) or trailer(enclosed) I've heard of.

 

Can you cite a time where it happened to someone riding in the bed of a pickup truck (not enclosed) because that is the case you are making. The boat had a dodger and a bimini (though it was rolled up in the starting pictures). That does not make an enclosure that would concentate the gas, so you're gonna have to explain how you think CO reached concentrations over say 400ppm in the wide open Pacific Ocean on a boat going 6 knots or so.

 

If your theory was remotely plausable sailors, fishermen, water skiers and all sorts of folks on watercraft would be dropping dead every weekend.

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A story from back when I was in aircraft mechanic school: Bob, my airframe instructor was a Pan Am 727 flight engineer that due to bypass surgery was temporarily grounded. At one point back when he was flying, he had had enough of a particular captain and copilot who routinely both fell asleep while flying, leaving him the only person awake.

 

Now in those days GPS did not exist. A major method for navigation was VOR's, which worked off of radio station signals. The instrument would show your course relative to a selected station, either as your degrees TO or FROM that station. You could view either as TO or FROM by toggling the switch.

 

As you passed over the station, the instrument would flip from TO to FROM.

 

So, one flight to New York when the pilots -- experienced of course -- both fell asleep again, Bob reset the VOR's. Now everything was FROM instead of TO. He then put himself into a sleeping pose, and fake snored / snorted very loudly so as to wake the other two up.

 

They were flying above total cloud cover, so there was no seeing land.

 

So on seeing the instruments the pilots immediately determined, to their alarm, that they had overshot New York and were now over the Atlantic Ocean, and were about to turn the 727 around. Only at this point did Bob inform them that he'd flipped the VOR's and that he had had it with their falling asleep.

 

Don't assume that "experienced" means that 3 out of 4 might not choose to sleep, and the 4th just couldn't possibly fall asleep (or fall overboard.)

 

Why are people having trouble here? They just have to find a thing to blame? Or other people, such as another ship? Why reach for the implausible, utterly unsupported, and utterly unnecessary?

 

Agreed,

 

But Why in the heck would you have the autopilot aimed ~right~ through the middle of that island....

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A mistake.

 

Perhaps either on the "zoom" theory, or out of knowing it but having every intention of being awake and still on the boat in time to change course later. And not thinking that it's unnecessarily setting the others up for disaster if falling asleep, becoming medically incapacitated, or falling overboard oneself.

 

In hindsight it's so easy to say of that error "I would never do that," but in actuality in my life I have made all kinds of stupid mistakes, and sometimes in things that I really, really ought to know better and ordinarily would know better. I think anyone can.

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A story from back when I was in aircraft mechanic school: Bob, my airframe instructor was a Pan Am 727 flight engineer that due to bypass surgery was temporarily grounded. At one point back when he was flying, he had had enough of a particular captain and copilot who routinely both fell asleep while flying, leaving him the only person awake.

 

Now in those days GPS did not exist. A major method for navigation was VOR's, which worked off of radio station signals. The instrument would show your course relative to a selected station, either as your degrees TO or FROM that station. You could view either as TO or FROM by toggling the switch.

 

As you passed over the station, the instrument would flip from TO to FROM.

 

So, one flight to New York when the pilots -- experienced of course -- both fell asleep again, Bob reset the VOR's. Now everything was FROM instead of TO. He then put himself into a sleeping pose, and fake snored / snorted very loudly so as to wake the other two up.

 

They were flying above total cloud cover, so there was no seeing land.

 

So on seeing the instruments the pilots immediately determined, to their alarm, that they had overshot New York and were now over the Atlantic Ocean, and were about to turn the 727 around. Only at this point did Bob inform them that he'd flipped the VOR's and that he had had it with their falling asleep.

 

Don't assume that "experienced" means that 3 out of 4 might not choose to sleep, and the 4th just couldn't possibly fall asleep (or fall overboard.)

 

Why are people having trouble here? They just have to find a thing to blame? Or other people, such as another ship? Why reach for the implausible, utterly unsupported, and utterly unnecessary?

 

Agreed,

 

But Why in the heck would you have the autopilot aimed ~right~ through the middle of that island....

 

Happened to be in the straight line from where they decided to start motoring and where they were going. Modern electronics removed the absolute necessity of plotting ones course on a chart to set a heading.

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From San Diego Coroner's Office. (Contributing conditions might indicate there was nothing else but blunt force trauma that contributed to the death. In other words: no CO):

 

Case Number: 12-00996

Name: Theo Mavromatis

City of Residence: Redondo Beach

DOB: 05/29/1962

Gender: Male

Place of Death: N 32 26 43 W 117 17 59, San Diego CA

Place of injury: N 32 26 43 W 117 17 59, San Diego CA

Date/Time of Death: 5/6/2012 2:40:00 PM Date/Time injury: 04/28/2012 Unk

Summary: The decedent was a 49-year-old married Caucasian male who resided in a home with his wife in Redondo Beach, CA. On 05/06/12, the decedent was found floating in the ocean off Coronado Islands by fishing boat. The US Coast Guard was contacted and responded to the location. Upon arrival, they recovered the body from the ocean and was transported to their headquarters, located on N. Harbor Drive.

Cause of Death/Updated Cause of Death: Multiple blunt force injuries

Contributing Conditions: None

Manner: Accident

Investigating Agency: Next of kin notified? Yes

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A mistake.

 

Perhaps either on the "zoom" theory, or out of knowing it but having every intention of being awake and still on the boat in time to change course later. And not thinking that it's unnecessarily setting the others up for disaster if falling asleep, becoming medically incapacitated, or falling overboard oneself.

 

In hindsight it's so easy to say of that error "I would never do that," but in actuality in my life I have made all kinds of stupid mistakes, and sometimes in things that I really, really ought to know better and ordinarily would know better. I think anyone can.

 

agreed --

 

lesson learned -- sounds obvious, but if there is a rhumb line to your destination and it happens to go through an obstacle anywhere on its route, don't use it ! (sounds way too obvious)

 

When I am using my autopilot on "track" I usually aim for a point to end before and not directly in the path of an obstacle I am trying to go around. In that case if something happened the boat would continue "out and around" and not into an obstacle. And once I reach that "point" most autopilots continually "beep" at you looking for the next waypoint (I ~think~ my autopilot will continue straight in those circumstances, though I have never let that happen to see what it would do-- gotta try that)

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The boat owner, Theo Mavromatis, a licensed captain, was sailing in his 7th N2E race, winning his class twice, and he had been sailing since he was a little boy. The Aegean's crew had raced together four times and cruised for years together as well, one was reportedly doing his third N2E. There is really nothing to indicate that a lack of experience was a factor, including the fact that this cruz boat carried its numbers on a weather cloth rather than on a sail. Back when there were 500 or 600 boats in the race this was a lot more common, but you still see boats in the cruz classes doing this. Indeed, check out the pictures linked from the NOSA site.

 

The N2E is a fun race with an emphasis on camaraderie. There is a serious competitive component, but most crews are primarily out to have a good time. It might seem lame but this is why the cruz classes began to be allowed to use their engines a few years ago. With So Cal's notoriously light air at night, too many crews were missing the Sunday night party, and even missing the Monday cutoff. Not much camaraderie to be found while bobbing around off Puerto Nuevo during the awards ceremony. Still, the experience level is generally high and in support of this it should be noted once again that these are the first fatalities in the race's 65 year history.

 

It's hard to imagine the entire crew falling asleep while the boat continued on autopilot directly into N. Coronado, but this is the simplest and therefore most likely explanation.

 

It's not hard to imagine. People fall asleep flying airplanes. Driving cars. The problem of night watches falling asleep or becoming extremely inattentive is a well known problem, especially when just monitoring a system and not actively operating it.

 

Might have simply been laid out on the seats looking up at the stars.

 

 

Well, it's hard for me to imagine all four falling asleep since I have little trouble pulling an all-nighter on an overnight race or cruise. I'm always so excited to be at sea that on night one my problem is usually the opposite of being sleepy. My experience has also been that it's not just me, my fellow crewmembers are usually also excited and motivated to stay awake. I've never been on an overnight race where everybody, or even anybody, was particularly anxious to hit the sack. You don't race N2E to catch up on your sleep, and again, it seems hard to believe that out of four avid sailors, not one was able to stay awake and/or attentive, and yet I think we agree that they all fell asleep is the most likely explanation.

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Might have simply been laid out on the seats looking up at the stars.

 

Seriously? Who in their right mind would lay down and look up at the stars in the middle of the night knowing they need to stay awake? Might as well take an Ambien too.

 

Geeze, and no particular offense to you Mark K, but so many of the comments on this thread leave me scratching my head wondering if the poster has even spent a single night at sea on a sailing yacht.

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Most likely except for zero evidence, unless a boat crashing is considered to be evidence specifically for CO poisoning. That would be a new principle though.

 

No, it's Ninjas, I tell you.

 

No one has ever fallen asleep during only the first night of a trip they intended to stay awake, one of the excellent points you make. So that is ruled out. Therefore: Ninjas.

 

Wouldn't CO poisoning show up in the Autopsy and Toxicology report? How well was the Autopsy's done ?

 

I do believe this could be a very outside possibility -- I did read that they had put in a new engine very recently, but this was a diesel - is the CO as bad as with a gasoline exhaust ? And wouldn't the smell from Diesel exhaust be noticeable (it is to me), but Carbon Monoxide from gasoline is not as noticeable -- still lots of questions

 

Diesel exhaust has a much lower CO content than gasoline engine exhaust. Someone a few hundred posts back listed the different levels but you can probably Google it.

 

The first two bodies' COD was listed as 'trauma', while the third was 'trauma and drowning'. The fourth has not been listed yet, but much more time has passed so it's probably harder to determine. No mention of CO.

 

And the first reports on the owner and skippers body detailed the 4th body as naked?

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Well, we all see things through our own filters, and as I said, it’s hard for me to imagine all four falling asleep since I have little trouble pulling an all-nighter on an overnight race or cruise. I’m always so excited to be at sea that on night one my problem is usually the opposite of being sleepy. My experience has also been that it's not just me, my fellow crewmembers are usually also excited and motivated to stay awake. I've never been on an overnight race where everybody, or even anybody, was particularly anxious to hit the sack. You don't race N2E to catch up on your sleep, and again, it seems hard to believe that out of four avid sailors, not one was able to stay awake and/or attentive, and yet I think we agree that they all fell asleep is the most likely explanation.

Indeed, we all see things through our own filters.

 

Re: your experience of being excited and motivated to stay awake all night is good, but to 50-year-olds accustomed to going to bed much earlier, it is very common for that excitement and motivation to wear off after just a few hours past their normal bed-time. And when that excitement wears off, the crash is frequently sudden and deep. My experiences, my filters.

 

Here's a short story only indirectly related to the above.

I've baby-sat a few kids in my time. Parents would say something like, "Bedtime is 8:30." Well, we'd be having a grand old time, eating pizza and watching forbidden violent TV like NCIS. I'd tell the kids that I didn't care what their parents said and I far as I was concerned they could stay up as late as they wanted. This was met with cheers, whooping it up and general enthusiasm and elevated levels of adrenaline. As exciting as all that was, right around 8:40 they would be sound asleep on the couch and I'd have to carry them to their rooms. Odd thing, habits...

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And the first reports on the owner and skippers body detailed the 4th body as naked?

 

Correct, and hairless as well.

 

No doubt faceless too.

 

Ten or twelve days dead in the ocean does not leave one looking pretty.

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540261_3250605424279_1241282081_32573063_945920446_n.jpg

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Might have simply been laid out on the seats looking up at the stars.

 

Seriously? Who in their right mind would lay down and look up at the stars in the middle of the night knowing they need to stay awake? Might as well take an Ambien too.

 

Geeze, and no particular offense to you Mark K, but so many of the comments on this thread leave me scratching my head wondering if the poster has even spent a single night at sea on a sailing yacht.

 

+1

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Might have simply been laid out on the seats looking up at the stars.

 

Seriously? Who in their right mind would lay down and look up at the stars in the middle of the night knowing they need to stay awake? Might as well take an Ambien too.

 

Geeze, and no particular offense to you Mark K, but so many of the comments on this thread leave me scratching my head wondering if the poster has even spent a single night at sea on a sailing yacht.

 

This is in particular offense to you. You are fucking stupid for believing shit like that doesn't happen. A complete idiot. I doubt you have ever even seen a boat.

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There is no mystery here.

People make mistakes. Experienced people make mistakes when they are complacent and inexperienced people when they are over their head and both sometimes just make plain dumb ones.

 

These sailors made two mistakes. They failed to keep a proper watch and they failed to do proper navigation. And those two mistakes killed them. Experienced people have made those mistakes and inexperienced people have made those mistakes. They are not as difficult to understand or uncommon as some here seem to think.

 

There is no disrespect in saying that. They were human and made human mistakes.

 

The most respect we can give them is to remember their mistakes and the price they paid and use it to remember to pay attention and take care in our own sailing.

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Well, we all see things through our own filters, and as I said, it’s hard for me to imagine all four falling asleep since I have little trouble pulling an all-nighter on an overnight race or cruise. I’m always so excited to be at sea that on night one my problem is usually the opposite of being sleepy. My experience has also been that it's not just me, my fellow crewmembers are usually also excited and motivated to stay awake. I've never been on an overnight race where everybody, or even anybody, was particularly anxious to hit the sack. You don't race N2E to catch up on your sleep, and again, it seems hard to believe that out of four avid sailors, not one was able to stay awake and/or attentive, and yet I think we agree that they all fell asleep is the most likely explanation.

Indeed, we all see things through our own filters.

 

Re: your experience of being excited and motivated to stay awake all night is good, but to 50-year-olds accustomed to going to bed much earlier, it is very common for that excitement and motivation to wear off after just a few hours past their normal bed-time. And when that excitement wears off, the crash is frequently sudden and deep. My experiences, my filters.

 

And, eyeneversayno, don't forget that through the night they were not sailing, they were motoring, apparently under autopilot. At this point, the excitement level of the crew was probably more on the order of that associated with a delivery rather than that of being in a race.

 

I've done an overnight delivery (under sail) where all three of my crew, younger guys than I, all fell asleep.

 

That all four on the Aegean fell asleep is entirely plausible, and seems to me the most likely explanation (combined with the "obstruction disappearing on zoom out" navigational problem).

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Might have simply been laid out on the seats looking up at the stars.

 

Seriously? Who in their right mind would lay down and look up at the stars in the middle of the night knowing they need to stay awake? Might as well take an Ambien too.

 

Geeze, and no particular offense to you Mark K, but so many of the comments on this thread leave me scratching my head wondering if the poster has even spent a single night at sea on a sailing yacht.

 

This is in particular offense to you. You are fucking stupid for believing shit like that doesn't happen. A complete idiot. I doubt you have ever even seen a boat.

 

LOL Nice temper tantrum! LOL

 

 

Oh I'm sure it could happen, however your initial post made it sound like four people laying down and looking up at the stars in the middle of the night while in a life or death struggle to stay awake was a plausable scenario. Please, that's idiotic and it tells me you've likely never stood watch or helmed a small boat at one in the morning.

 

Next to taking an Ambien, laying down to look up at the stars is the last thing a sane person would do in such a situation. And I've seen no evidence that the skipper and his crew were insane.

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There is no mystery here.

People make mistakes. Experienced people make mistakes when they are complacent and inexperienced people when they are over their head and both sometimes just make plain dumb ones.

 

These sailors made two mistakes. They failed to keep a proper watch and they failed to do proper navigation. And those two mistakes killed them. Experienced people have made those mistakes and inexperienced people have made those mistakes. They are not as difficult to understand or uncommon as some here seem to think.

 

There is no disrespect in saying that. They were human and made human mistakes.

 

The most respect we can give them is to remember their mistakes and the price they paid and use it to remember to pay attention and take care in our own sailing.

 

agreed -- I guess we are all curious to know exactly "what" mistakes they made and the circumstances they made them...... such is human nature

 

But its looking like we will never know exactly what happened, but trying to figure out the odds of certain theoretical events..... many of them are somewhat plausible, some being more likely than others

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That all four of them fell asleep is entirely plausible, and seems to me the most likely explanation.

 

I agree completely, however my wonderment is probably shared by a lot of folks here, hence the difficulty accepting what seems so obvious and the ongoing desire for alternative explanations. That and fear... few likely want to confront the fact that the explantion could be something so prosaic, and something that could easily happen to any one of us.

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I don't believe they all fell asleep from fatigue or boredom; this race wasn't long, it was their first night out,

Faulty conclusion. As anyone who has done even a modest amount of distance racing can attest, the first night is the most likely time for falling asleep on watch. The crew is coming fresh from a routine of going to bed and waking up at or about the same time for months and years on end. The routine of keeping scheduled watches has not had time to overcome the conditioning of more-or-less stable bed times at home. Add to this four middle-age men who have done this before, so it is unlikely the adrenaline rush will be keeping them jacked-up like it may for an enthusiastic teen.

 

 

 

... they would be looking for the Coronados, etc. However, to say there's no way four people could all have ended up asleep ignores the carbon monoxide theory, which I still subscribe to as the most likely explanation.

I can't see asphyxia or CO poisoning in a cockpit open to fresh air on 3 sides.

Having done many coastal overnight races, most with 4 or more crew, and I've never seen everyone go to sleep at the same time, or even half. I don't believe all 4 of these guys were asleep, no way. It seems like the only explanation, but that doesn't mean it is.

 

Many times the off-watch isn't sleeping. Rather, they are navigating, trimming, packing a chute, tinkering with something, on the head, changing clothes, eating, making coffee... I was just a crew, not the skipper or navigator, and after my first one or two overnight races, I quickly learned to make a point of sleeping the first couple hours, in the daylight, when everyone else was jacked up and on-deck after the start, so that I could stay up all night and be useful, knowing there are usually going to be one or two newbies who are either seasick, or yes, sound asleep by midnight.

 

Experience, even a little bit of experience, tells you to make a plan for someone(s) being alert in the wee hours, and experience also tells you you are not superman/woman, so you have to take a nap sometime, and during the daylight is the best time, when everyone else is awake. Experience tells you that the boat gets quiet when it's late and dark, and that if you're racing, definitely not the time to be snoozing away your chance at passing your competitors.

 

 

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Might have simply been laid out on the seats looking up at the stars.

 

Seriously? Who in their right mind would lay down and look up at the stars in the middle of the night knowing they need to stay awake? Might as well take an Ambien too.

 

Geeze, and no particular offense to you Mark K, but so many of the comments on this thread leave me scratching my head wondering if the poster has even spent a single night at sea on a sailing yacht.

 

This is in particular offense to you. You are fucking stupid for believing shit like that doesn't happen. A complete idiot. I doubt you have ever even seen a boat.

 

LOL Nice temper tantrum! LOL

 

 

Oh I'm sure it could happen, however your initial post made it sound like four people laying down and looking up at the stars in the middle of the night while in a life or death struggle to stay awake was a plausable scenario. Please, that's idiotic and it tells me you've likely never stood watch or helmed a small boat at one in the morning.

 

Next to taking an Ambien, laying down to look up at the stars is the last thing a sane person would do in such a situation. And I've seen no evidence that the skipper and his crew were insane.

 

Just letting you know that if you reply to me you might as well dispense with the passive-aggressive mealy mouthed insults.

 

You've earned another one: Seems you are the kind of jackwagon that believes people don't do dumb things, so I know you've never been around boats much at all. Or much of anything else.

 

I'll quit when you do. Pretending that I am saying this is smart is dishonest or stupid.

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Experience tells you that the boat gets quiet when it's late and dark, and that if you're racing, definitely not the time to be snoozing away your chance at passing your competitors.

You do know that they were motoring?

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I don't believe they all fell asleep from fatigue or boredom; this race wasn't long, it was their first night out,

Faulty conclusion. As anyone who has done even a modest amount of distance racing can attest, the first night is the most likely time for falling asleep on watch. The crew is coming fresh from a routine of going to bed and waking up at or about the same time for months and years on end. The routine of keeping scheduled watches has not had time to overcome the conditioning of more-or-less stable bed times at home. Add to this four middle-age men who have done this before, so it is unlikely the adrenaline rush will be keeping them jacked-up like it may for an enthusiastic teen.

 

 

 

... they would be looking for the Coronados, etc. However, to say there's no way four people could all have ended up asleep ignores the carbon monoxide theory, which I still subscribe to as the most likely explanation.

I can't see asphyxia or CO poisoning in a cockpit open to fresh air on 3 sides.

All four asleep? Very unlikely.

All four succumbed to CO, also very unlikely, considering CO poisoning by diesel doesn't happen, and CO poisoning by propane is not going to happen in a large, mostly open cockpit.

So what happened? One asleep down below, one down below fucking around looking for a jacket or a snack. Two topsides and having a chat, looking at the stars, not paying attention to the radar, forgot to reposition the waypoint, distracted is all, and that's all it takes, game over.

 

 

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These sailors made two mistakes. They failed to keep a proper watch and they failed to do proper navigation. And those two mistakes killed them. Experienced people have made those mistakes and inexperienced people have made those mistakes. They are not as difficult to understand or uncommon as some here seem to think.

 

I also agree with this completely.

 

I was thinking this morning about this matter of experience. As has been noted earlier in this thread, the actual nuts and bolts of making an ocean passage is not rocket science. The biggest thing experience has taught me is the value of careful pre-voyage planning. For example, notorious stretches of ocean, such as the Gulf of Alaska, can be sailed with a reasonable expectation of safety by studying the pilot charts and planning the crossing during the time of year most likey to afford one good sailing weather. We did one such crossing some years ago from Hawaii to Homer, AK, and damn if the weather, average wind speed and direction, as well as the location of the Pacific High weren't exactly as the charts predicted. It was like a fucking script. This kind of planning is where experience pays off the most, not in staying awake while motoring down the coast with the autopilot on.... or in knowing enought not to fucking lay down in the cockpit and look at the goddamn stars while on watch! LOL

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At about :57 on this YouTube video, you can briefly see the face of North Island and get an idea of the swells. Taken from a tour boat.

 

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Even with more than 40 or many more professionals aboard. The crew can get distracted and lose complete situational awareness. Even more so when they decided to go autopilot and engine. Three techi's could have been below finishing dinner and rewriting the SPOT software or reprogramming whatever for kicks and tecky giggles. BANG! Google the grounding of the USN Port Royale with half the USN Pacific Command aboard finishing inspection BANG! Better yet Eastern Air Lines Flight 401 well trained crew who just stopped paying attention.

Here is one more example:

minesveiper_858_1172074733.jpg

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I'll quit when you do.

 

Whatever dude, sorry you made a made fool of yourself. Keep digging if you want to.

 

There ya go. Just say it out loud like you had a pair.

 

You apparently never actually had to deal with fatigue. From that, I know you don't have much experience out there. Saying I don't is a lie of "projection".

 

They make alarms for people who fall asleep at the wheel of cars. There were a couple of pilots who fell asleep in an airliner recently. One must craft strategies against this phenomena.

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All four asleep? Very unlikely.

All four succumbed to CO, also very unlikely, considering CO poisoning by diesel doesn't happen, and CO poisoning by propane is not going to happen in a large, mostly open cockpit.

So what happened? One asleep down below, one down below fucking around looking for a jacket or a snack. Two topsides and having a chat, looking at the stars, not paying attention to the radar, forgot to reposition the waypoint, distracted is all, and that's all it takes, game over.

 

 

So at 6.5 knots, how long were they "fucking around" looking for a jacket or a snack, and not paying attention to radar?

 

How long was this "distraction" you theorize?

 

Or is your "theory" that North Coronado Island wouldn't show on the radar till the last minute? If so you are mistaken.

 

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minesveiper_858_1172074733.jpg

 

"I polished up the brass so care-ful-ly,

But now I'll never be an Admiral

In the Queen's Navy."

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Experience tells you that the boat gets quiet when it's late and dark, and that if you're racing, definitely not the time to be snoozing away your chance at passing your competitors.

You do know that they were motoring?

Yes, it appears they were motoring, we all know that. However, doesn't mean they were not preparing to sail again, and at some point during the night, turn off the engine and "race" if the breeze picked up sometime during the night.

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So you figure) they were staying prepared to sail again at any time.

 

Yet were "fucking around" and didn't see where they were going, when it should have been obvious for quite some beforehand if a single person was paying attention at all.

 

Your theory seems inconsistent. They couldn't have fallen asleep because they were preparing to sail again, didn't want to miss an opportunity on their competitors, yet weren't attentive at all.

 

It doesn't seem like you can have it both ways. Which one is it?

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One must craft strategies against this phenomena.

 

Gee, really? And you think one of their strategies to stay awake might have been to lay down in the cockpit to look at the stars?

 

Oh wait, you are simply attempting to craft a strawman argument (I stated many pages back that they likely fell asleep) to cover for your foolish suggestion. Pretty silly.

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All four asleep? Very unlikely.

All four succumbed to CO, also very unlikely, considering CO poisoning by diesel doesn't happen, and CO poisoning by propane is not going to happen in a large, mostly open cockpit.

So what happened? One asleep down below, one down below fucking around looking for a jacket or a snack. Two topsides and having a chat, looking at the stars, not paying attention to the radar, forgot to reposition the waypoint, distracted is all, and that's all it takes, game over.

 

 

So at 6.5 knots, how long were they "fucking around" looking for a jacket or a snack, and not paying attention to radar?

 

How long was this "distraction" you theorize?

 

Or is your "theory" that North Coronado Island wouldn't show on the radar till the last minute? If so you are mistaken.

 

Do we know that the radar worked? Do we know that everyone onboard knew how to use it? There is some learning curve in accurately reading a radar screen.

 

I'm going with "distraction" as the cause of the accident because it is more plausible than 1) everyone's asleep, or 2) everyone's brain is oxygen-deficient. Just looking for the simplest way for shit to hit the fan. I never said anything about the radar.

 

Also, as someone did mention before that due to the time of the accident, a watch-change is a good time for Murph to strike, because the normal rhythm of topsides is briefly interrupted.

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Which were they: experienced, or unable to use the radar?

 

Please, can't argue both directions.

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Which were they: experienced, or unable to use the radar?

 

Please, can't argue both directions.

 

No, you are right Narcissist, I cannot argue both, and therefore I did not; but I can put you back on ignore. Bye bye. tongue.gif

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Even with more than 40 or many more professionals aboard. The crew can get distracted and lose complete situational awareness. Even more so when they decided to go autopilot and engine. Three techi's could have been below finishing dinner and rewriting the SPOT software or reprogramming whatever for kicks and tecky giggles. BANG! Google the grounding of the USN Port Royale with half the USN Pacific Command aboard finishing inspection BANG! Better yet Eastern Air Lines Flight 401 well trained crew who just stopped paying attention.

Here is one more example:

minesveiper_858_1172074733.jpg

EXACTLY !!!!! I find it boorish, smug and douchey when ~some~ on here will degrade these people and try, in their own insecurities, to demean them by trying to imply that the reason they had this terrible accident was because they were cruisers, or went on less sailboat races as themselves, or whatever and that THEY would never allow such a thing like that to happen to them and somehow they are superior....

 

PUHLEEESE ! Terrible accidents happen to the BEST of professionals out there - and the smug "pseudo superior" douchery on here by some is ridiculous

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Previously:

 

It sounds like at least 2 or the 4 crew were quite experienced.

 

Now:

 

Which were they: experienced, or unable to use the radar?

 

Please, can't argue both directions.

 

No, you are right Narcissist, I cannot argue both, and therefore I did not; but I can put you back on ignore. Bye bye. tongue.gif

 

 

Pathetic.

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Do we know that the radar worked? Do we know that everyone onboard knew how to use it? There is some learning curve in accurately reading a radar screen.

 

GT, the owner/skipper was a super tech type at Raytheon.

FWIW, I've been on boats like the Aegeon with all the bells and whistles, including radar with proximity alarms, where nobody paid much attention to any of it, at least on a clear night where the best equipment on the boat is a pair of alert eyes.

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There is no mystery here.

People make mistakes. Experienced people make mistakes when they are complacent and inexperienced people when they are over their head and both sometimes just make plain dumb ones.

 

These sailors made two mistakes. They failed to keep a proper watch and they failed to do proper navigation. And those two mistakes killed them. Experienced people have made those mistakes and inexperienced people have made those mistakes. They are not as difficult to understand or uncommon as some here seem to think.

 

There is no disrespect in saying that. They were human and made human mistakes.

 

The most respect we can give them is to remember their mistakes and the price they paid and use it to remember to pay attention and take care in our own sailing.

 

+10 There is no mystery here.

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