Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

re-psycled

3 dead in N2E

Recommended Posts

Before we start blaming tankers too much, I was out there too and the boat I was sailing on had a tanker slow and go behind us. They did not try to contact us nor give us any horns, they just slowed, let us cross and then accelerated. We were very visible with a radar reflector up at the top of the mast and our tricolor instead of the deck navigation lights. And check the link below:

 

http://share.findmes...eoelyfYAx2eVZzF

 

Please remember to tell your loved ones and friends how much you love and appreciate them whenever you can. My condolences to the families of the sailors we have lost.

 

Condolences to family and friends...

 

...if that track is accurate...the keel should be around there .

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

edit: Oops, upon checking out the link above I wonder if someone decided to leave the auto pilot on and take a nap, damn.

btw: I had a similar experience on a couple of catalina trips, where they would definitely slow while we crossed their path.

 

That's exactly what it looks like. Steady course for a looooong time, under steady motoring speed.

 

But what about the reported radio calls? The guys tethered? Sounds like somebody must have been awake.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Get your head out of the boat and look around. Often.

 

Aegean from all reports was a good, competent boat with a good, competent crew. Something awful happened for no currently understandable reason.

 

Yeah, and they likely had their head out of the boat, looking around, but it didn't help... "Get your head out of the boat" is a phrase I've seen abused around here far too often. As if that is all there is to it and there is no value in electronics. Simply not true.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you, this is the first thing I've seen that really tells me anything. If this is right, it should be easy to confirm, there must be a keel there somewhere.

 

 

Before we start blaming tankers too much, I was out there too and the boat I was sailing on had a tanker slow and go behind us. They did not try to contact us nor give us any horns, they just slowed, let us cross and then accelerated. We were very visible with a radar reflector up at the top of the mast and our tricolor instead of the deck navigation lights. And check the link below:

 

http://share.findmes...eoelyfYAx2eVZzF

 

Please remember to tell your loved ones and friends how much you love and appreciate them whenever you can. My condolences to the families of the sailors we have lost.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

can AIS be configured to show only boats headed somewhat at you? not necessarily collision course, but at least filter out boats that are moving away or are no way going to be closing in your position? Just thinking aloud, but it could help cut down on the clutter in busy areas.

You can put in a guard zone, so that it will only sound an alarm if a vessel's CPA falls within that zone. Will not filter out other vessels, but frankly not that many sailboats have AIS type B, as yet, but its building. Roaring pain in the ass imho who wants to know about a 30' sailboat, what I am interested in is ships. ...

 

The filtering capabilities are all a function of the software that is part of your display system; some of these have very powerful filtering that indeed can cut to the chase.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This race was ISAF category 3 with AIS Transponder recommended.

 

In category 2 the AIS Transponder is already a must.

 

There is a big difference pricewise between AIS receiver andtransponder !!!!

Not sure about the powerconsumption of a transponder vs. receiver.

 

 

The power consumption of my class-B AIS transponder is really not very much. It is only sending out a short burst of data (milliseconds?) in a low power transmission (2 watts?) once every 30 seconds. My Vesper Marine display is also optimized to use minimal amounts of power.

 

I also have a EchoMax Active-X Radar Target Enhancer -- and it's power consumption is also very small, depending on the number of radars that are pinging it.

 

While you are correct ISAF Cat 2 requires an AIS transponder, in the US, the US Sailing prescriptions apply to most races as stated in the NORs. That additional set of rules waives AIS transponder requirements for the time being. Many other ISAF rules are waived in those such as the requirement of crotch straps on harnesses, etc.

 

We have one onboard and I set it to silent during races. I love it, but I wouldn't really want to transmit all the time during a race, would give all the competition too much information, speed, course, etc. Takes some of the skill and fun out of racing.

 

That said, we always plan to set it active if we get into a shaky situation with a ship and want them to know where we are. Haven't had to to so far, but its an option

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Can someone get a plot of where the vessel Aegean's tracker stopped sending data? With the fairly benign conditions out there and the decent visibility, the idea of finding where a giant rock is and further crashing into bits and pieces seems rather far-fetched to mee. I would think that a collision with another vessel would be much much more plausible...

 

edit: Oops, upon checking out the link above I wonder if someone decided to leave the auto pilot on and take a nap, damn.

btw: I had a similar experience on a couple of catalina trips, where they would definitely slow while we crossed their path.

 

Looks like the SPOT transponder was transmitting every 10 minutes as expected... and then it hit the North Coronado Island at 1:36:36 local time.

 

That northern end of the island looks like a cliff on Google Map; I can't think of the consequences of hitting it at hull speed if they were motoring....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Can someone get a plot of where the vessel Aegean's tracker stopped sending data? With the fairly benign conditions out there and the decent visibility, the idea of finding where a giant rock is and further crashing into bits and pieces seems rather far-fetched to mee. I would think that a collision with another vessel would be much much more plausible...

 

edit: Oops, upon checking out the link above I wonder if someone decided to leave the auto pilot on and take a nap, damn.

btw: I had a similar experience on a couple of catalina trips, where they would definitely slow while we crossed their path.

 

Looks like the SPOT transponder was transmitting every 10 minutes as expected... and then it hit the North Coronado Island at 1:36:36 local time.

 

That northern end of the island looks like a cliff on Google Map; I can't think of the consequences of hitting it at hull speed if they were motoring....

 

According to the spot tracker they were doing just over 6 and a half knots starting at just before 10PM on a very straight, un-deviating course.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Can someone get a plot of where the vessel Aegean's tracker stopped sending data? With the fairly benign conditions out there and the decent visibility, the idea of finding where a giant rock is and further crashing into bits and pieces seems rather far-fetched to mee. I would think that a collision with another vessel would be much much more plausible...

 

edit: Oops, upon checking out the link above I wonder if someone decided to leave the auto pilot on and take a nap, damn.

btw: I had a similar experience on a couple of catalina trips, where they would definitely slow while we crossed their path.

 

Looks like the SPOT transponder was transmitting every 10 minutes as expected... and then it hit the North Coronado Island at 1:36:36 local time.

 

That northern end of the island looks like a cliff on Google Map; I can't think of the consequences of hitting it at hull speed if they were motoring....

 

 

If this is true, they must have all been asleep and/or preoccupied with something else, AND/OR, mis-plotted their course rather badly. 'Cuz last time I drove by North Coronado, it had a good light on it. But if you go back and read my post about the wooden fishing boat that some guys I knew sunk out there, I believe they actually hit a submerged rock/reef/something a mile or so north of N/Coronado.

 

(Sorry I can't recall more, but this happened about 16 years ago....)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That tip of North Island is dubbed pukey point by fisherman and it is a shear rock wall which catches the brunt of the swell. If there was a much of a swell that night, then I could see how a fiberglass boat could be shreaded pretty badley. But you would think that there is a large part of the boat which is sitting right there underwater. Very sad.

Can someone get a plot of where the vessel Aegean's tracker stopped sending data? With the fairly benign conditions out there and the decent visibility, the idea of finding where a giant rock is and further crashing into bits and pieces seems rather far-fetched to mee. I would think that a collision with another vessel would be much much more plausible...

 

edit: Oops, upon checking out the link above I wonder if someone decided to leave the auto pilot on and take a nap, damn.

btw: I had a similar experience on a couple of catalina trips, where they would definitely slow while we crossed their path.

 

Looks like the SPOT transponder was transmitting every 10 minutes as expected... and then it hit the North Coronado Island at 1:36:36 local time.

 

That northern end of the island looks like a cliff on Google Map; I can't think of the consequences of hitting it at hull speed if they were motoring....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Before we start blaming tankers too much, I was out there too and the boat I was sailing on had a tanker slow and go behind us. They did not try to contact us nor give us any horns, they just slowed, let us cross and then accelerated. We were very visible with a radar reflector up at the top of the mast and our tricolor instead of the deck navigation lights. And check the link below:

 

http://share.findmes...eoelyfYAx2eVZzF

 

Please remember to tell your loved ones and friends how much you love and appreciate them whenever you can. My condolences to the families of the sailors we have lost.

 

Condolences to family and friends...

 

...if that track is accurate...the keel should be around there .

 

I was wondering about the keel too. Maybe they could find it with the magnetometer. http://www.navydads.com/forum/topics/lockheed-martin-p3-orion-1

 

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That tip of North Island is dubbed pukey point by fisherman and it is a shear rock wall which catches the brunt of the swell. If there was a much of a swell that night, then I could see how a fiberglass boat could be shreaded pretty badley. But you would think that there is a large part of the boat which is sitting right there underwater. Very sad.

Can someone get a plot of where the vessel Aegean's tracker stopped sending data? With the fairly benign conditions out there and the decent visibility, the idea of finding where a giant rock is and further crashing into bits and pieces seems rather far-fetched to mee. I would think that a collision with another vessel would be much much more plausible...

 

edit: Oops, upon checking out the link above I wonder if someone decided to leave the auto pilot on and take a nap, damn.

btw: I had a similar experience on a couple of catalina trips, where they would definitely slow while we crossed their path.

 

Looks like the SPOT transponder was transmitting every 10 minutes as expected... and then it hit the North Coronado Island at 1:36:36 local time.

 

That northern end of the island looks like a cliff on Google Map; I can't think of the consequences of hitting it at hull speed if they were motoring....

 

The depth drops instantly to 100 feet, but levels out a little. The keel should be right there at the base of the cliff in diveable depths.

 

Rick, there is no light.

 

Damn. Sounds like Otto had the pedal to the metal, and steered a perfect line to that point. So sad, and now seemingly avoidable.

 

It will be interesting to hear whether toxicology reports show anything that could have incapacitated them. Were they tethered down below and asphyxiated? Did anyone really hear them hail another ship?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is really hard to believe. Not only the deja-vu from the Farallons incident two weeks earlier, but that a boat would be so thoroughly destroyed by hitting this island?

 

Spot_Aegean.png

north-island-image-05514-248438.jpg

coronado-islands-mexico-aerial-photo-21320-909105.jpg

north-coronado-island-aerial-photo-photograph-05491-186095.jpg

P3240821x25-0lr.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That tip of North Island is dubbed pukey point by fisherman and it is a shear rock wall which catches the brunt of the swell. If there was a much of a swell that night, then I could see how a fiberglass boat could be shreaded pretty badley. But you would think that there is a large part of the boat which is sitting right there underwater. Very sad.

 

Ok, but if they hit the north end, why was everything floating found south of the island? That would definitely take some time for the debris to drift southward all those miles (how long is North Coronado anyways? I can't recall). 0130 to 1000 is 8.5 hours...at 1 knot? 1.5 knots? That doesn't seem to me to be enough time for the 'debris' field to travel so far south. And also, I would think that over that time period, that stuff would have been really spread out in a much larger area?....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Before we start blaming tankers too much, I was out there too and the boat I was sailing on had a tanker slow and go behind us. They did not try to contact us nor give us any horns, they just slowed, let us cross and then accelerated. We were very visible with a radar reflector up at the top of the mast and our tricolor instead of the deck navigation lights. And check the link below:

 

http://share.findmes...eoelyfYAx2eVZzF

 

Please remember to tell your loved ones and friends how much you love and appreciate them whenever you can. My condolences to the families of the sailors we have lost.

 

Condolences to family and friends...

 

...if that track is accurate...the keel should be around there .

 

I was wondering about the keel too. Maybe they could find it with the magnetometer. http://www.navydads.com/forum/topics/lockheed-martin-p3-orion-1

 

 

 

I have an idea that the Hunter keels are cast iron. Anybody know?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wow, clearly from the SPOT track they did not get south of the islands. The ship that departed Rosarito was clearly south of the islands.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

(how long is North Coronado anyways? I can't recall).

 

The North Island is 0.8 NM long

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok, but if they hit the north end, why was everything floating found south of the island? That would definitely take some time for the debris to drift southward all those miles (how long is North Coronado anyways? I can't recall). 0130 to 1000 is 8.5 hours...at 1 knot? 1.5 knots? That doesn't seem to me to be enough time for the 'debris' field to travel so far south. And also, I would think that over that time period, that stuff would have been really spread out in a much larger area?....

 

I was wondering the same thing.

 

I'm also a little surprised by the laser straight line they steered, and seemingly perfectly steady speed. I guess that's possible with a small sea and minimal winds.

 

I'm not sure how these spot trackers work, but is there any chance the receiver went haywire and falsely extrapolated their positions? I've had handheld GPS's track me in straight lines where I've never traveled. One in my iPhone shot me from White Point in Palos Verdes where I was walking, all the way to the middle of the South Atlantic.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Ok, but if they hit the north end, why was everything floating found south of the island? That would definitely take some time for the debris to drift southward all those miles (how long is North Coronado anyways? I can't recall). 0130 to 1000 is 8.5 hours...at 1 knot? 1.5 knots? That doesn't seem to me to be enough time for the 'debris' field to travel so far south. And also, I would think that over that time period, that stuff would have been really spread out in a much larger area?....

 

North Coronado is less than a mile long. There is also a nasty rip around the east side, better than a knot, maybee two.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

Rick, there is no light.

 

 

 

That is correct... no light on the Northern Island http://j.mp/Kr4xkv

 

 

Bitchin, how my memory fades with time. But what a great place not to spend $6,000,000 fuking pesos, huh?....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Another example of why not to set waypoints on land / buoys / marks etc? Otto does what you tell him to.

 

My condolences to family and friends.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

Rick, there is no light.

 

 

 

That is correct... no light on the Northern Island http://j.mp/Kr4xkv

 

 

Bitchin, how my memory fades with time. But what a great place not to spend $6,000,000 fuking pesos, huh?....

 

Mind boggling. Two lights on Middle Coronado.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So... there was a reference to this tracker in the very first news release but we only figure out now that the track is straight into a big rock...

 

There's been much speculation in the press about a freighter collision, etc.

 

 

What am I missing here ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Before we start blaming tankers too much, I was out there too and the boat I was sailing on had a tanker slow and go behind us. They did not try to contact us nor give us any horns, they just slowed, let us cross and then accelerated. We were very visible with a radar reflector up at the top of the mast and our tricolor instead of the deck navigation lights. And check the link below:

 

http://share.findmes...eoelyfYAx2eVZzF

 

Please remember to tell your loved ones and friends how much you love and appreciate them whenever you can. My condolences to the families of the sailors we have lost.

 

Could the Spot transponder have drifted down on to North Coronado after the Aegean was struck (assuming that's what happened)? I'm not sure about the current/wind at the time. But damn, that Spot track does give credence to the 'hit the rocks' theory. (Total aside: Spot's slogan on that page makes me a little queasy.)

 

Condolences to the families no matter what happened.

 

 

Could it be possible that the Aegean first hit the cliffs as SPOT indicates, and then the wreckage drifted and was finished off by a tanker?

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok, but if they hit the north end, why was everything floating found south of the island? That would definitely take some time for the debris to drift southward all those miles (how long is North Coronado anyways? I can't recall). 0130 to 1000 is 8.5 hours...at 1 knot? 1.5 knots? That doesn't seem to me to be enough time for the 'debris' field to travel so far south. And also, I would think that over that time period, that stuff would have been really spread out in a much larger area?....

 

I was wondering the same thing.

 

I'm also a little surprised by the laser straight line they steered, and seemingly perfectly steady speed. I guess that's possible with a small sea and minimal winds.

 

I'm not sure how these spot trackers work, but is there any chance the receiver went haywire and falsely extrapolated their positions? I've had handheld GPS's track me in straight lines where I've never traveled. One in my iPhone shot me from White Point in Palos Verdes where I was walking, all the way to the middle of the South Atlantic.

 

The chances of a haywire receiver / transponder seem beyond remote. If the track went through the island or even stopped some distance before it, that might be a consideration. But to end exactly at the shoreline after a steady track in course and distance? It looks as though SPOT was spot on.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Does Spot tell us how fast Aegean was moving between the 10 minute readings?

Is that speed probable for hull speed of that boat and Otto?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Does Spot tell us how fast Aegean was moving between the 10 minute readings?

Is that speed probable for hull speed of that boat and Otto?

 

Yes. It shows the positions at each spot, and they're 10 minutes apart. Someone here calculated 6.5 knots.

 

Edit: I'm still surprised by the small chunks found. I would expect it to slam into the cliff and sink, but still largely intact. Whomever suggested it may have floated away may have something there. But if there were survivors from the grounding, one would expect something other than the hailing of another ship with the VHF asking if I were seen. Maydays, flares, epirbs, etc. would be on my list. Sorry, my speculation ain't worth the electrons it's displayed with.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Where did the SPOT track come from? Show me how you can actually see it online.

 

Where was the debris found? There is no way that the search would not find something on the island.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The reports of the boat and human condition make me question if something happened before she went up against the rocks. Could the spot have traveled that even a course with wind and current and without it's owner? Looks like something changed on the Spot tracker around here (#27):

 

iw_close.gif

Aegean

ESN :0-2108668Type :Track ProgressLatitude :32.79576Longitude :-117.63373Time :Fri Apr 27 2012 21:46:30 GMT-0700 (PDT)

Heartfelt condolences to friends and family of Aegean.

Edit: for Bitter Gnat: http://share.findmespot.com/shared/faces/viewspots.jsp?glId=0PPpktkSXb0QR2ojCNeoelyfYAx2eVZzF

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

Rick, there is no light.

 

 

 

That is correct... no light on the Northern Island http://j.mp/Kr4xkv

 

 

Bitchin, how my memory fades with time. But what a great place not to spend $6,000,000 fuking pesos, huh?....

 

Mind boggling. Two lights on Middle Coronado.

 

Yeah, I got 'em mixed up----Middle C is quite large, and there's a wharf/pier thing on the inside of the island, close to the s/east corner. Seen boats come and go there at night....just never figured out what they're doing there. Mining? Fishing? Naval patrols?....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Where did the SPOT track come from? Show me how you can actually see it online.

 

Where was the debris found? There is no way that the search would not find something on the island.

 

It came from Mexican and American search and Rescue personnel.

 

http://share.findmespot.com/shared/faces/viewspots.jsp?glId=0PPpktkSXb0QR2ojCNeoelyfYAx2eVZzF

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Does Spot tell us how fast Aegean was moving between the 10 minute readings?

Is that speed probable for hull speed of that boat and Otto?

 

From the SPOT position #28 to the island is just under 26 nautical miles; the distance was traveled in 3 hours 40 minutes... Approximately 7 knots

 

Over 3 hours in a perfectly straight line under auto-pilot seems unusual but having never attempted it, I have no idea whether that is possible...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The speed between the last two points in the track is a bit over six kts, and this seems to be fairly constant along the track. I doubt if debris could drift at this speed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

Rick, there is no light.

 

 

 

That is correct... no light on the Northern Island http://j.mp/Kr4xkv

 

 

Bitchin, how my memory fades with time. But what a great place not to spend $6,000,000 fuking pesos, huh?....

 

Mind boggling. Two lights on Middle Coronado.

 

Yeah, I got 'em mixed up----Middle C is quite large, and there's a wharf/pier thing on the inside of the island, close to the s/east corner. Seen boats come and go there at night....just never figured out what they're doing there. Mining? Fishing? Naval patrols?....

 

I'd say those pesos would be better spent on the northern island.

 

The boats on middle were tending the national meth lab.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Does Spot tell us how fast Aegean was moving between the 10 minute readings?

Is that speed probable for hull speed of that boat and Otto?

 

Yes. It shows the positions at each spot, and they're 10 minutes apart. Someone here calculated 6.5 knots.

 

I was crew on a boat leaving Richmond Yacht Club North of the Olympic Circle for a race on April 21st. We were headed (motoring with the sails up) due south. A certain individual that gets a lot of bad press here happened to be talking to the skipper as we motored south. Personally, I have a lot of respect for the skipper, but he was distracted, as was the rest of us. We collided with a range marker almost head on. This type of marker is three piles driven into the mud at angles, joined together. About thirty feet tall. It felt like we went aground, then the hull struck one of the piles and riding up on it until the ladder attached to the pile started scrapping along the rail.

 

I think we had 6 people on board. I was on the opposite side, facing the cockpit. Two crew members were either on the foredeck or at the mast focused on preparatory tasks. NOBODY on board saw what was dead ahead of us. We ran right into it. Three feet westward and we would have put the bow in between the pilings.

 

Middle of the morning, flat water, clear visibility.

 

Shit happens to the best (and worst) of us.

 

Food for thought.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The reports of the boat and human condition make me question if something happened before she went up against the rocks. Could the spot have traveled that even a course with wind and current and without it's owner? Looks like something changed on the Spot tracker around here (#27):

 

iw_close.gif

Aegean

ESN :0-2108668Type :Track ProgressLatitude :32.79576Longitude :-117.63373Time :Fri Apr 27 2012 21:46:30 GMT-0700 (PDT)

Heartfelt condolences to friends and family of Aegean.

Edit: for Bitter Gnat: http://share.findmes...eoelyfYAx2eVZzF

 

It appears as #27 is where the Otto course was re-plotted to NC perhaps.

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The reports of the boat and human condition make me question if something happened before she went up against the rocks. Could the spot have traveled that even a course with wind and current and without it's owner? Looks like something changed on the Spot tracker around here (#27):

 

It's not going to drift or float at 6.5 knots. I would guess that mark #27 is where the engine was fired up and auto pilot engaged. I know, I know, speculation. I just don't see anything else possible from that spot track.

 

There is a lot of un-answered questions. If the race commitee saw that track Saturday and they continued to say, and let it be said that it was a collision with a ship.......Why?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Motoring/motorsailing along at ~6kts, hit the rocks... LPG or CNG onboard? Running engine, batteries, sparks

boom = lots of small bits...

It is pretty clear they started motoring after a series of slow reports around 9pm (from the track data.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Without reading the whole thread has anyone mentioned a Submarine coming into SD as the Culprit?? They have done in pleasure boaters in the past.

 

Imagine a Sub surfacing and splitting your boat in half without warning? pretty scary.

 

The sub surface zone was moved way, way out and the Navy tends to avoid exercises during a major cluter fuck like the Ensenada Race.

 

Trust me.

 

 

Without reading the whole thread has anyone mentioned a Submarine coming into SD as the Culprit?? They have done in pleasure boaters in the past.

 

Imagine a Sub surfacing and splitting your boat in half without warning? pretty scary.

 

 

I think it's still a big no-no for our military to be dicking around in Mexican waters. Well, without a proper hall pass at least....

 

 

 

YEA YEA YEA, But what about a drug smuggling submarine (submersible)????

 

could that be possible? What a great cover to smuggle tons of cocaine, the N2E race.

 

Freighters push so much water it seems odd, though not impossible, that it would sink the boat so quickly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

speculate even more --> here

 

1st I aint buying the idea they ran straight into a Coranado Island and lost everyone

 

2nd if it did happen, a BIG chunk shall be sitting where it can be found

 

"Lots of Remote Toys" in San Diego

 

Bet they can send a dolphin w a cam to an area to scout out people or boats or parts of the same

 

also Bet they have RUDrones that can (and just might be anyway) report anything new on the bottom off SD

 

Yea it's in Mexico, but it ain't Iraq & if you think our Military is just sittin at the dock in DAGO or on WesPac ..............

 

Aint saying the Military would get involved as part of their mission

 

But as a Training Exercise

 

How do you think the OZ AC boat that broke and sunk was recovered so quickly wink.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The reports of the boat and human condition make me question if something happened before she went up against the rocks. Could the spot have traveled that even a course with wind and current and without it's owner? Looks like something changed on the Spot tracker around here (#27):

 

It's not going to drift or float at 6.5 knots. I would guess that mark #27 is where the engine was fired up and auto pilot engaged. I know, I know, speculation. I just don't see anything else possible from that spot track.

 

There is a lot of un-answered questions. If the race commitee saw that track Saturday and they continued to say, and let it be said that it was a collision with a ship.......Why?

 

 

Hmmm, maybe they were.....told to?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Edit: I'm still surprised by the small chunks found. I would expect it to slam into the cliff and sink, but still largely intact.

 

not necessarily....there was some swell about wasn't there? what direction was it from??

 

we came upon a debris field heading south to Point Cartwright and Mooloolaba at dawn one morning a few years ago. Bits of boat all around us and all quite small. As we approached the river channel entrance (a breakwall) we noted what we thought looked like a power boat anchored quite close to the entrance.

 

It was the remains of a trimaran that failed to take the correct side of the breakwall. What remained on the wall was barely recognisable as a boat other than it's broken rig tangled about the place. It had been blowing quite hard from the south all night and there had been a large swell but at Point Cartwright and the channel entrance, which is well protected from that direction, there were only small waves.

 

The point is it doesn't take much swell or very long to disintegrate a boat if the wave action is against a rock wall. LSC may have remained more intact as she was pushed up a shelf rather than pounded against a wall. just a thought

 

Condolences to the bereaved. tragic

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It reminds me of the Flying Tiger incident on the Marin Headlands. It doesn't take long when a fiberglass boat is beaten against a cliff face for it to break up. The parts attached to the keel stay with the rocks, everything that can float drifts away. The smallest pieces (six inch) break off and go away. I'm certain that SAR combed over the Island, but with the depths the way they are on that north face . . . anything that didn't float would be way down there.

 

That track is very sobering.

 

Never use a rock for a way point is all I can think now. It does seem to add to the discussion of Low Speed Chase. Never head to an Island, always head around it.

 

I'm surprised the track didn't get out there in the public eye before this.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

the positions of the spot reports 18-27 are close together, so they were moving slow in light air. Right after #27 they said "screw it" and fired up the engine and handed the driving over to Otto. 3 hours 50 minutes later, BANG! into the rocks.

 

I once met a guy who ran a 90 foot power boat into Ship Rock at Catalina pretty much the same way.

 

Condolences to the families. Sad.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How do you think the OZ AC boat that broke and sunk was recovered so quickly wink.gif

 

what??

 

edit: nice quick delete there Woody. dolt

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Looks like the tide was just starting to flow out at the time of that last Spot.

 

post-672-060388900 1335835314_thumb.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

the positions of the spot reports 18-27 are close together, so they were moving slow in light air. Right after #27 they said "screw it" and fired up the engine and handed the driving over to Otto. 3 hours 50 minutes later, BANG! into the rocks.

 

I once met a guy who ran a 90 foot power boat into Ship Rock at Catalina pretty much the same way.

 

Condolences to the families. Sad.

 

He placed the waypoint ON the rock???

 

I have a waypoint just outside the green can, which brings me along a course the splits that difference between Bird Rock and Ship Rock, directly from outside LA Light.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So... there was a reference to this tracker in the very first news release but we only figure out now that the track is straight into a big rock...

 

There's been much speculation in the press about a freighter collision, etc.

 

 

What am I missing here ?

 

What I can't get my mind around is what went through the mind of the first person to look at that track. I felt a big empty spot in my gut when I first laid eyes on it. But imagine you are part of the event authority and you see the loss of the data, then look at the track. Wouldn't you try to raise an alarm? Instantly?

 

My condolences to everyone involved.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

the positions of the spot reports 18-27 are close together, so they were moving slow in light air. Right after #27 they said "screw it" and fired up the engine and handed the driving over to Otto. 3 hours 50 minutes later, BANG! into the rocks.

 

I once met a guy who ran a 90 foot power boat into Ship Rock at Catalina pretty much the same way.

 

Condolences to the families. Sad.

 

He placed the waypoint ON the rock???

 

I have a waypoint just outside the green can, which brings me along a course the splits that difference between Bird Rock and Ship Rock, directly from outside LA Light.

 

 

We do the same---but I always set another waypoint at least 2 miles out before the channels/rocks/points/entrances/whatever. Just in case and all.....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There is no reason to think the race organizers even knew about the SPOT track..., right?

 

there was no official tracking for this race, was there?

 

SPOT web pages are usually just for family and friends.

 

 

 

i don't think we should infer from this that they put a waypoint at the island, as has been suggested.

 

 

pictures of the boat, show one chartplotter - at the helm..., nothing at the nav down below.

 

either way, that straight part of the track, where they are pointed at the island, is 3.5 hrs long.

 

It's hard to believe that people weren't looking at the chartplotter at all.

 

it just doesn't really make sense.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How in the hell do you run into a cliff on a well known island? They had radar. Presumably someone had a chart and they were updating their position.

 

WTF?

 

As someone suggested the small bits could be the result of a propane explosion, but then, how come nobody else reported that? Further, it would seem to me that there would be burn marks on some of the debris.

 

This makes no sense whatsoever.

 

The keel would provide the key. That shouldn't be so hard to find with sonar.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How in the hell do you run into a cliff on a well known island?

 

might need to check out some maritime history once in a while Doey....it's been going on for centuries

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Is sure looks like Otto was sent on a direct line to the Corral finish. Can someone smarter than me transect where the boat would meet Baja if the Coronados weren't in the way?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Looking at the photo of the boat pre-race, you can see several race pennants on the flag halyard. Aegean had done multiple N2E races. Over-confidence?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How in the hell do you run into a cliff on a well known island?

 

might need to check out some maritime history once in a while Doey....it's been going on for centuries

 

That would be a damned good spot to put a little flashy thingy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There is no reason to think the race organizers even knew about the SPOT track..., right?

 

there was no official tracking for this race, was there?

 

SPOT web pages are usually just for family and friends.

 

 

 

i don't think we should infer from this that they put a waypoint at the island, as has been suggested.

 

 

pictures of the boat, show one chartplotter - at the helm..., nothing at the nav down below.

 

either way, that straight part of the track, where they are pointed at the island, is 3.5 hrs long.

 

It's hard to believe that people weren't looking at the chartplotter at all.

 

it just doesn't really make sense.

 

 

As do the odds of all of them being incapacited at the same time, hours before hitting the island....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How do you think the OZ AC boat that broke and sunk was recovered so quickly wink.gif

 

what??

 

edit: nice quick delete there Woody. dolt

 

 

 

 

How in the hell do you run into a cliff on a well known island?

 

might need to check out some maritime history once in a while Doey....it's been going on for centuries

 

givin DoRag research advice when you can't even find an intact post just overhead in the same thread ??

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The reports of the boat and human condition make me question if something happened before she went up against the rocks. Could the spot have traveled that even a course with wind and current and without it's owner? Looks like something changed on the Spot tracker around here (#27):

 

It's not going to drift or float at 6.5 knots. I would guess that mark #27 is where the engine was fired up and auto pilot engaged. I know, I know, speculation. I just don't see anything else possible from that spot track.

 

There is a lot of un-answered questions. If the race commitee saw that track Saturday and they continued to say, and let it be said that it was a collision with a ship.......Why?

 

 

Hmmm, maybe they were.....told to?

 

It's possible they hit the cliffs, then an explosion occurred, then the debris drifted and was further destroyed by a tanker impact. Two of the souls died of blunt trauma, only one of drowning and one missing (ironically--the skipper/owner), so that sounds more like a very intense impact that perhaps only an explosion or a freighter could inflict.

 

Every short, overnight race I've ever been on the skipper never sleeps at night....because this is when races are usually won.

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So... there was a reference to this tracker in the very first news release but we only figure out now that the track is straight into a big rock...

 

There's been much speculation in the press about a freighter collision, etc.

 

 

What am I missing here ?

 

What I can't get my mind around is what went through the mind of the first person to look at that track. I felt a big empty spot in my gut when I first laid eyes on it. But imagine you are part of the event authority and you see the loss of the data, then look at the track. Wouldn't you try to raise an alarm? Instantly?

 

My condolences to everyone involved.

 

And the first reports said the tracker data stopped at 1:30am but this Spot track stops at 10:36pm? Three hour difference? Sure looks like they turned on the motor and autopilot, and a secondary explosion from the collision is plausible... Very hard to understand the 2+ day delay in making this Spot track public?

 

EDIT: ah crap, sorry; using Hawaiian time again... (thanks Marvin). That explains the three hour difference?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Is sure looks like Otto was sent on a direct line to the Corral finish. Can someone smarter than me transect where the boat would meet Baja if the Coronados weren't in the way?

 

That's plausable as it would not be uncommon on taht race to be in a position where the rhumb line takes you through those islands.

 

But, that's why God made charts, radar, and common sense.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Is sure looks like Otto was sent on a direct line to the Corral finish. Can someone smarter than me transect where the boat would meet Baja if the Coronados weren't in the way?

 

 

Without looking at Googly satellite....I don't think it's possible to get there from there, on that course.....islands not withstanding.....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How do you think the OZ AC boat that broke and sunk was recovered so quickly wink.gif

 

what??

 

edit: nice quick delete there Woody. dolt

 

 

 

 

How in the hell do you run into a cliff on a well known island?

 

might need to check out some maritime history once in a while Doey....it's been going on for centuries

 

givin DoRag research advice when you can't even find an intact post just overhead in the same thread ??

 

yeah...that's true Woody....scrolled back and thought you'd deleted....after all....that was a pretty stupid thing to say about OneAus. No excuse for my faux pas

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So... there was a reference to this tracker in the very first news release but we only figure out now that the track is straight into a big rock...

 

There's been much speculation in the press about a freighter collision, etc.

 

 

What am I missing here ?

 

What I can't get my mind around is what went through the mind of the first person to look at that track. I felt a big empty spot in my gut when I first laid eyes on it. But imagine you are part of the event authority and you see the loss of the data, then look at the track. Wouldn't you try to raise an alarm? Instantly?

 

My condolences to everyone involved.

 

And the first reports said the tracker data stopped at 1:30am but this Spot track stops at 10:36pm? Three hour difference? Sure looks like they turned on the motor and autopilot, and a secondary explosion from the collision is plausible... Very hard to understand the 2+ day delay in making this Spot track public?

 

As the tracker is intended for Family / Friends

 

and one on board was from FL (3hr diff) could be spot on

 

And the person reporting from FL might not have shared the link just what they could tell from FL

 

 

 

 

 

or not - But .............................................................................................

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh man, that SPOT track is sobering - straight onto the hard like a lawn dart.

 

Grim.

 

I hadn't seen THAT, obviously - or figured on them motoring either. I think I read somewhere the boat was registered to some rental-use outfit ? Perhaps unfamiliarity with the boat & it's gear, or other inexperience led to the errant waypoint entry, everybody sleeping soundly belowdeck with only one tired watch-keeper who just didn't figure it out out until too late...6.5kts motoring speed + a little kick from a swell into a sheer rock face - that could be enough of a shot to incapacitate, and with subsequent waves and nowhere to recover...yeah, that could go bad real quick for the crew.

 

A very sad chain of errors, if that was the case - should be easily-enough verified, as has been said the keel and engine won't have gone far from the impact site.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There is no reason to think the race organizers even knew about the SPOT track..., right?

 

there was no official tracking for this race, was there?

 

SPOT web pages are usually just for family and friends.

 

http://newportbeach.patch.com/articles/three-killed-during-newport-to-ensenada-yacht-one-still-missing

 

The Aegean "vanished" from the online race tracking system at about 1:30 a.m. Saturday, according to the Newport Ocean Sailing Association.

 

http://www.nosa.org/assets/press/ens12aegean.doc

 

The first indication of the incident was at 1:30 a.m. Saturday when the boat's image vanished from the online race tracking system in place for the race.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Is sure looks like Otto was sent on a direct line to the Corral finish. Can someone smarter than me transect where the boat would meet Baja if the Coronados weren't in the way?

 

Nothing scientific but a ruler on my big screen shows a course to just miss the point at Santa Rosa and right into Bahia Todos Los Santos.

 

Doing the plot it dawned on me that if they zoomed all the way out to set the finish as a waypoint, that island is almost not visible on the chart.

 

If they didn't zoom back into a 6 or 12 mile radius it is possible they never saw it on the plotter.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Looking at positions 16, 17, . . . 18 - #17 was a message transmission, but even so, the gap between 16- 18 seems uncharacteristic. Could that be an indication that spot transmissions have a certain amount of inaccuracy associated with them.

 

The message at 17: "Winds are down, but we are still moving"

 

Then suddenly they move faster than they do while under power to get to #18?

 

That makes me wonder if . . .

 

Strange, but perhaps it explains that the spot track was not interpreted as them hitting the island.

 

--------------------------------------

The Spot Connect feature seems pretty cool.

 

Was tracking part of the race? or just something that some competitors did for themselves and their families?

 

My condolences to the families. Waking up Saturday morning and checking the spot track and finding that endpoint. It gives me shivers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Is sure looks like Otto was sent on a direct line to the Corral finish. Can someone smarter than me transect where the boat would meet Baja if the Coronados weren't in the way?

 

Aegean_projected.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

And the first reports said the tracker data stopped at 1:30am but this Spot track stops at 10:36pm? Three hour difference? Sure looks like they turned on the motor and autopilot, and a secondary explosion from the collision is plausible... Very hard to understand the 2+ day delay in making this Spot track public?

 

Proa, I believe 10:36pm is your local time (Hawaii) ... The SPOT track viewer seems to convert to the local time of the viewer.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Is sure looks like Otto was sent on a direct line to the Corral finish. Can someone smarter than me transect where the boat would meet Baja if the Coronados weren't in the way?

 

 

Without looking at Googly satellite....I don't think it's possible to get there from there, on that course.....islands not withstanding.....

 

No, its not, you plot a course for the harbor entrance, then bang a left, or creep over to the right toward Todos, as you know.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Is sure looks like Otto was sent on a direct line to the Corral finish. Can someone smarter than me transect where the boat would meet Baja if the Coronados weren't in the way?

 

Aegean_projected.png

 

 

And that heading would put you smak-fuk-dab into a tuna pen off of 'Puedes. Way, way to close for my tastes.....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

And the first reports said the tracker data stopped at 1:30am but this Spot track stops at 10:36pm? Three hour difference? Sure looks like they turned on the motor and autopilot, and a secondary explosion from the collision is plausible... Very hard to understand the 2+ day delay in making this Spot track public?

 

Proa, I believe 10:36pm is your local time (Hawaii) ... The SPOT track viewer seems to convert to the local time of the viewer.

 

My bad (again). Fixed it, thanks.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted · Hidden by jrw1621, May 1, 2012 - wrong
Hidden by jrw1621, May 1, 2012 - wrong

That heading would also put you into North Coronado...

Share this post


Link to post

From the official press release:

The first indication of the incident was at 1:30 a.m. Saturday when the boat's image vanished from the online race tracking system in place for the race. A Coast Guard search was launched that led to discovery of the boat's wreckage, including the rear transom with the boat's name on it.

 

 

 

An investigation was continuing, but it appeared the damage was not inflicted by an explosion but by a collision with a ship much larger than the 37-foot vessel.

 

I was thinking about position error.

 

 

The Spot track seems crystal clear to me. It ends exactly on the cliff face of the Island. What is the statistical chance that the endpoint would coincide exactly with the coordinates of a shoreline if there was some error involved in the positioning system? Why would anyone even think that a ship was involved?

 

On the other hand, if someone was directed to search the waters off those islands and they came from the south and encountered a debris field 2 miles to the west of the northern tip of South Coronado Island . . . which is where an average .23 knot current would take it between 1:30 am and 10 am . . . then I could see the report of debris as indicating a ship collision.

 

But I would assume a helicopter would be directed to the exact spot of the end of the track, then be redirected to the boats in the debris field.

 

Does the N2E race fleet normally pass within 2 miles of that island group?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Is sure looks like Otto was sent on a direct line to the Corral finish. Can someone smarter than me transect where the boat would meet Baja if the Coronados weren't in the way?

 

Nothing scientific but a ruler on my big screen shows a course to just miss the point at Santa Rosa and right into Bahia Todos Los Santos.

 

Doing the plot it dawned on me that if they zoomed all the way out to set the finish as a waypoint, that island is almost not visible on the chart.

 

If they didn't zoom back into a 6 or 12 mile radius it is possible they never saw it on the plotter.

 

This is likely the most plausible answer... they picked a waypoint in the distance, possibly just clear of Salsipuedes Point and hit Go To on the autopilot, not realizing the island was in their path...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Is sure looks like Otto was sent on a direct line to the Corral finish. Can someone smarter than me transect where the boat would meet Baja if the Coronados weren't in the way?

 

Nothing scientific but a ruler on my big screen shows a course to just miss the point at Santa Rosa and right into Bahia Todos Los Santos.

 

Doing the plot it dawned on me that if they zoomed all the way out to set the finish as a waypoint, that island is almost not visible on the chart.

 

If they didn't zoom back into a 6 or 12 mile radius it is possible they never saw it on the plotter.

 

 

This is likely the most plausible answer... they picked a waypoint in the distance, possibly just clear of Salsipuedes Point and hit Go To on the autopilot, not realizing the island was in their path...

 

How can that be? According to the reports, these were experienced sailors.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

From the official press release:

The first indication of the incident was at 1:30 a.m. Saturday when the boat's image vanished from the online race tracking system in place for the race. A Coast Guard search was launched that led to discovery of the boat's wreckage, including the rear transom with the boat's name on it.

 

 

 

An investigation was continuing, but it appeared the damage was not inflicted by an explosion but by a collision with a ship much larger than the 37-foot vessel.

 

I was thinking about position error.

 

 

The Spot track seems crystal clear to me. It ends exactly on the cliff face of the Island. What is the statistical chance that the endpoint would coincide exactly with the coordinates of a shoreline if there was some error involved in the positioning system? Why would anyone even think that a ship was involved?

 

On the other hand, if someone was directed to search the waters off those islands and they came from the south and encountered a debris field 2 miles to the west of the northern tip of South Coronado Island . . . which is where an average .23 knot current would take it between 1:30 am and 10 am . . . then I could see the report of debris as indicating a ship collision.

 

But I would assume a helicopter would be directed to the exact spot of the end of the track, then be redirected to the boats in the debris field.

 

Does the N2E race fleet normally pass within 2 miles of that island group?

 

Within 6 miles of the east side and 100 miles of the west = MAX

 

most trying to decide inside or out before they get there

 

Not Bad passing Close 100 - 200' or so off any surf to west & the cliffs to east

 

some shallow rocks up real close

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The reports of the boat and human condition make me question if something happened before she went up against the rocks. Could the spot have traveled that even a course with wind and current and without it's owner? Looks like something changed on the Spot tracker around here (#27):

 

It's not going to drift or float at 6.5 knots. I would guess that mark #27 is where the engine was fired up and auto pilot engaged. I know, I know, speculation. I just don't see anything else possible from that spot track.

 

There is a lot of un-answered questions. If the race commitee saw that track Saturday and they continued to say, and let it be said that it was a collision with a ship.......Why?

 

 

 

 

Hmmm, maybe they were.....told to?

 

It's possible they hit the cliffs, then an explosion occurred, then the debris drifted and was further destroyed by a tanker impact. Two of the souls died of blunt trauma, only one of drowning and one missing (ironically--the skipper/owner), so that sounds more like a very intense impact that perhaps only an explosion or a freighter could inflict.

 

Every short, overnight race I've ever been on the skipper never sleeps at night....because this is when races are usually won.

so you are calling it an insurance job?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Is sure looks like Otto was sent on a direct line to the Corral finish. Can someone smarter than me transect where the boat would meet Baja if the Coronados weren't in the way?

 

Nothing scientific but a ruler on my big screen shows a course to just miss the point at Santa Rosa and right into Bahia Todos Los Santos.

 

Doing the plot it dawned on me that if they zoomed all the way out to set the finish as a waypoint, that island is almost not visible on the chart.

 

If they didn't zoom back into a 6 or 12 mile radius it is possible they never saw it on the plotter.

 

This is likely the most plausible answer... they picked a waypoint in the distance, possibly just clear of Salsipuedes Point and hit Go To on the autopilot, not realizing the island was in their path...

 

 

Jfc, even Spindler and Lat 38 have a couple/three skipper meetings going over the different legs and crap to be aware of before doing the Baja Ha-Ha....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What do you say about this . . . damn shame

 

What do you say about 'lessons learned'? Don't hit islands? I guess you can add:

 

(1) Always check all along an electronic track at various zooms for small hazards, as a wide zoom can easily obscure them

 

(2) Plot a position (paper) or check the position at different zooms (electronic) at least once an hour to see what's around

 

(3) Run (and look at or put a guard zone on) the radar certainly at least when motoring .

 

(4) Do look around and definitely forward when on watch – but you need to protect your night vision and not be reading with a light if you want to see anything.

 

(5) Don't put waypoints on rocks - I would guess that was not the case here, but worth saying - I would guess from the track they put the waypoint near the finish at wide zoom

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

From the official press release:

The first indication of the incident was at 1:30 a.m. Saturday when the boat's image vanished from the online race tracking system in place for the race. A Coast Guard search was launched that led to discovery of the boat's wreckage, including the rear transom with the boat's name on it.

 

 

 

An investigation was continuing, but it appeared the damage was not inflicted by an explosion but by a collision with a ship much larger than the 37-foot vessel.

 

I was thinking about position error.

 

 

The Spot track seems crystal clear to me. It ends exactly on the cliff face of the Island. What is the statistical chance that the endpoint would coincide exactly with the coordinates of a shoreline if there was some error involved in the positioning system? Why would anyone even think that a ship was involved?

 

On the other hand, if someone was directed to search the waters off those islands and they came from the south and encountered a debris field 2 miles to the west of the northern tip of South Coronado Island . . . which is where an average .23 knot current would take it between 1:30 am and 10 am . . . then I could see the report of debris as indicating a ship collision.

 

But I would assume a helicopter would be directed to the exact spot of the end of the track, then be redirected to the boats in the debris field.

 

Does the N2E race fleet normally pass within 2 miles of that island group?

 

Within 6 miles of the east side and 100 miles of the west = MAX

 

most trying to decide inside or out before they get there

 

Not Bad passing Close 100 - 200' or so off any surf to west cliffs to east

 

some shallow rocks up real close

 

So an experienced competitor would be thinking about the islands and which way they would pass them, with three choices: East, through them, or West. If they decided to go through them, or close to them, then the Islands would be a way point, and they would be expecting them, even looking for them. If they turned on the motor, then they'd decide to motor to where they expected wind, or motor the shortest course to the finish, to place them as far south as possible in the morning if they expected to start sailing again then.

 

Huh

 

I've never done that race, so I'm very curious about what a competitor, even one in the cruising class, would be thinking.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites