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re-psycled

3 dead in N2E

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Theory #1

 

 

4 crew. Cruising division. Motoring with Autopilot on. Watch system is 1 on deck at a time. 2 hours on. 6 hours off.

 

3 crew down below sleeping (off watch). Owner on deck alone (on watch).

 

Owner stands up to pee over the side and goes in by accident. Off watch has no idea. Boat plows into N. Coronado. 3 crew are found. Owner missing.

 

 

Theory #2

 

 

4 crew. Cruising division. Motoring with Autopilot on. Watch system is 1 on deck at a time. 2 hours on. 6 hours off.

 

3 crew down below sleeping (off watch). Owner on deck alone (on watch).

 

Owner falls asleep on deck. Off watch has no idea. Boat plows into N. Coronado. Owner gets ejected off boat and is not found. 3 crew are found.

 

 

 

Seems like a diving expedition to N. Coronado is in order. Probably lots of answers there.

 

 

Peace and Prayers to the lost souls and their families.

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Hopefully, the wreckage reveals "prop" marks, etc. to help solve this mystery? Could a high powered drug panga or cigarette boat collide with the somewhat stationary sailboat, slicing through/over the boat leaving shredded sinking remains? No lights, no warning, very high speed, and no conscience might be an explaination.

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I have a waypoint just outside the green can, which brings me along a course the splits that difference between Bird Rock and Ship Rock, directly from outside LA Light.

We do the same---but I always set another waypoint at least 2 miles out before the channels/rocks/points/entrances/whatever. Just in case and all.....

Most of us have similar practices. But you need to remember that not everyone can navigate well. I've been with otherwise smart people who just don't "get" navigation. I've seen courses set to steer right across dry land/rocky peninsulas.

 

But it's pretty pointless (and inconsiderate) to speculate on the events that transpired on AEGEAN without full facts.

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Has anyone thought about an explosion aboard? I find it hard to believe the S/V Aegean would not have a proper watch during a significant yacht race; especially a yacht that has won the race before.. Also there was a auto carrier entering and departing SD on 4/28. I noticed on Marine Traffic Live that there was a large congregation of tankers offshore the last couple of days, all within a few miles from each other. Possibly being investigated by the USCG.

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So you are sitting there for several hours in the middle of the night in no wind, bouncing around in 6-8 ft swells, would you have your kite up?

 

You decide to turn on the motor (since you can). I assume you take down your sails. Your jib is probably already furled. If you have a kite up, that takes a little moving around, but in no wind, maybe you just pull it through the forward hatch . . .

 

Then you set up your autopilot for the finish and you clip in for the night and fall asleep around midnight . . . that can't be right . . . other boats are in the same area and watching out for ships. You gotta know the islands are there, even if they are an hour away. But perhaps you are heading for the Islands cause you know there won't be any ships passing through them?

 

There are things we will never know.

 

My condolences to the families.

 

I think we will know, eventually.

 

 

 

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So you are sitting there for several hours in the middle of the night in no wind, bouncing around in 6-8 ft swells, would you have your kite up?

 

You decide to turn on the motor (since you can). I assume you take down your sails. Your jib is probably already furled. If you have a kite up, that takes a little moving around, but in no wind, maybe you just pull it through the forward hatch . . .

 

Then you set up your autopilot for the finish and you clip in for the night and fall asleep around midnight . . . that can't be right . . . other boats are in the same area and watching out for ships. You gotta know the islands are there, even if they are an hour away. But perhaps you are heading for the Islands cause you know there won't be any ships passing through them?

 

There are things we will never know.

 

My condolences to the families.

 

I think we will know, eventually.

 

 

This story is getting weird. In a Mary Celeste kind of way.....

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Keep in mind that the Spot device is waterproof, so it is conceivable that it was attached to a piece of flotsam that ended up near Coronado island. This seems way more likely that a freighter hit them.

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So you are sitting there for several hours in the middle of the night in no wind, bouncing around in 6-8 ft swells, would you have your kite up?

 

You decide to turn on the motor (since you can). I assume you take down your sails. Your jib is probably already furled. If you have a kite up, that takes a little moving around, but in no wind, maybe you just pull it through the forward hatch . . .

 

Then you set up your autopilot for the finish and you clip in for the night and fall asleep around midnight . . . that can't be right . . . other boats are in the same area and watching out for ships. You gotta know the islands are there, even if they are an hour away. But perhaps you are heading for the Islands cause you know there won't be any ships passing through them?

 

There are things we will never know.

 

My condolences to the families.

 

Of course they know the islands are there, they set the chart plotter to it, and likely planned to set it again when they got closer. It makes sense they were there to avoid shipping. We've all set WPs to solid objects at one time or another...

 

I think we will know, eventually.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Keep in mind that the Spot device is waterproof, so it is conceivable that it was attached to a piece of flotsam that ended up near Coronado island. This seems way more likely that a freighter hit them.

 

Flotsam traveling at 6+ knots in a very straight line... I doubt it.

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Keep in mind that the Spot device is waterproof, so it is conceivable that it was attached to a piece of flotsam that ended up near Coronado island. This seems way more likely that a freighter hit them.

 

not at the rate it was moving down the track

 

I called and was told the tracker is good to within 27' of location

 

 

NOW as it's waterproof M / L why did it not keep pinging ??

 

how deep is it W/P to ??

 

if mounted to a chunk that went down @ the face of the island could it still be sending a signal 100' below the surface ??

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Keep in mind that the Spot device is waterproof, so it is conceivable that it was attached to a piece of flotsam that ended up near Coronado island. This seems way more likely that a freighter hit them.

 

Flotsam traveling at 6+ knots in a very straight line... I doubt it.

 

+1

 

Has anyone thought about an explosion aboard? I find it hard to believe the S/V Aegean would not have a proper watch during a significant yacht race; especially a yacht that has won the race before.. Also there was a auto carrier entering and departing SD on 4/28. I noticed on Marine Traffic Live that there was a large congregation of tankers offshore the last couple of days, all within a few miles from each other. Possibly being investigated by the USCG.

 

Read the thread, please.

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This report with some more comment by Lamb, the safety patrol give a little more insight. Lamb says he spotted a boat 'too close" to the islands (around 9 am I presume), but encountered the debris field as he approached (from the south I presume).

 

The race goes through shipping lanes and

 

it's possible for a large ship to hit a sailboat and not even know it, especially at night, said Rich Roberts, a spokesman for the race organizer. Two race participants who were in the area at the time the Aegean vanished told The Associated Press they saw or heard a freighter. A GPS race tracking system indicated the Aegean disappeared about 1:30 a.m. PDT (4:30 a.m. EDT) Saturday, Roberts said. Race organizers weren't closely monitoring the race at that hour but a disappearing signal is no cause for alarm because receivers occasionally suffer glitches, he said.

 

"Somebody may have thought the thing was broken," Roberts said.

 

What can we learn about this? Spot seems to work very well. The track shows the vessel going into an island and debris is found 9 hours later where an average .23 knot current would place it. A race committee can sit at a computer monitor and follow the boats . . . or can they? Page 1 and Page 2 of the tracks shows times where there are gaps in the Spot tracks. Are there glitches, or do competitors place them in locations that interfere with the signal? I wonder what Spot would have shown if all the CF competitors had them. Since you can connect the Spot system to a smart phone and send txt messages through a satellite, you could have competitors check in a certain distance away from rocky islands.

 

How many of use use smart phones?

 

I wonder what Keelhaulin would say?

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I wonder if any of the local dive clubs would be interested in taking a little trip?

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I have a waypoint just outside the green can, which brings me along a course the splits that difference between Bird Rock and Ship Rock, directly from outside LA Light.

We do the same---but I always set another waypoint at least 2 miles out before the channels/rocks/points/entrances/whatever. Just in case and all.....

Most of us have similar practices. But you need to remember that not everyone can navigate well. I've been with otherwise smart people who just don't "get" navigation. I've seen courses set to steer right across dry land/rocky peninsulas.

 

But it's pretty pointless (and inconsiderate) to speculate on the events that transpired on AEGEAN without full facts.

 

Respectful speculation is not necessarily evil; it can lead to answers. I wonder if anyone out there can absolutely verify the authenticity of the SPOT tracker data? If so, then that is a piece of data that is technical evidence of what happened to Aegean, at least initially. It is mostly the why that is unclear.

 

When there are two such disparate theories as there are in this particular incident, people are, rightfully so, going to be f'in disturbed about it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Horrible tragedy. If it is a run to the rocks, could CO poisoning been part of the equation?

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This report with some more comment by Lamb, the safety patrol give a little more insight. Lamb says he spotted a boat 'too close" to the islands (around 9 am I presume), but encountered the debris field as he approached (from the south I presume).

 

What can we learn about this? Spot seems to work very well. The track shows the vessel going into an island and debris is found 9 hours later where an average .23 knot current would place it. A race committee can sit at a computer monitor and follow the boats . . . or can they? Page 1 and Page 2 of the tracks shows times where there are gaps in the Spot tracks. Are there glitches, or do competitors place them in locations that interfere with the signal? I wonder what Spot would have shown if all the CF competitors had them. Since you can connect the Spot system to a smart phone and send txt messages through a satellite, you could have competitors check in a certain distance away from rocky islands.

 

 

The Track Progress feature of the SPOT device has to be manually reset every 24 hours, hence the gaps...

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This thread is rapidly falling apart.

 

When someone suggests that the Race Committee wasn't being diligent (Spot signals disappear all the time) and the whole 'hit by a ship thing' is a cover up, I imagine the thread will come back to the sort of life that many Anarchists prefer.

 

As 'just a member' I'm ok with the thread so far.

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Interesting chunk from a news article:

 

Eric Lamb was the first to find debris of the boat - most no larger than six inches - scattered over about two square miles Saturday as he worked safety patrol on the race. He saw a small refrigerator, a white seat cushion and empty containers of yogurt and soy milk.

"We pulled a lot of boats off the rocks over the years and boats that hit the rocks, they don't look like that. This was almost like it had gone through a blender," said Lamb, 62.

A Coast Guard helicopter circling overhead directed him and a partner to two floating bodies. Both had severe cuts and bruises, and one of them had major head trauma.

Two race participants who were in the area at the time the Aegean disappeared said they saw or heard a freighter.

Cindy Arosteguy of Oxnard, Calif., remembers hearing on her radio someone say, "Do you see us?" as she saw a tanker about a half-mile away.

"I got back on the radio and said, `Yes, I see you,'" she said. "It was definitely a freighter."

 

Looking at the surface currents they were not very strong at the time of the incident.

When I pull up the AIS records on ship-finder etc. I don't see any big ships going through at that time (perhaps I am filtering it wrong? Does anyone else see any big ships at 1:30am in this area?)

I've ran boats aground a few times at speeds similar to this with very little damage. I have also seen the damage done to power boats when hitting stationary objects at much higher speeds and it's certainly not 'as though they went through a blender', more like a big hole in the boat... I have also sailed around these islands a lot of times and they certainly aren't very menacing, especially with only 6-8 foot swell. I hardly think hitting the north side could cause this sort of damage.

 

Also it is very interesting that the race committee and the media was so quick to blame a freighter or other boat on boat collision in the beginning, and they also stated they knew the boat disappeared because they saw its tracker stop sending. One would think if they looked at the tracker they would have said they hit right into the north island, as it seems obvious to the rest of us when we look at that.

 

Something is seriously not adding up in this story. If there weren't any big freighters in the area as AIS records indicate then what was the big ship the other boats saw out there that they thought was a freighter?

More questions than answers here...

 

Also very interesting to read about the skipper of the boat, pretty interesting guy: http://www.glgresearch.com/Council-Member/Theo-Mavromatis-35073.html

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This report with some more comment by Lamb, the safety patrol give a little more insight. Lamb says he spotted a boat 'too close" to the islands (around 9 am I presume), but encountered the debris field as he approached (from the south I presume).

 

What can we learn about this? Spot seems to work very well. The track shows the vessel going into an island and debris is found 9 hours later where an average .23 knot current would place it. A race committee can sit at a computer monitor and follow the boats . . . or can they? Page 1 and Page 2 of the tracks shows times where there are gaps in the Spot tracks. Are there glitches, or do competitors place them in locations that interfere with the signal? I wonder what Spot would have shown if all the CF competitors had them. Since you can connect the Spot system to a smart phone and send txt messages through a satellite, you could have competitors check in a certain distance away from rocky islands.

 

 

The Track Progress feature of the SPOT device has to be manually reset every 24 hours, hence the gaps...

 

Thanks for that.

 

Is 50 positions per page the limit? What's up with that?

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Words cannot describe...

 

This makes me think back to some of the races I crewed on when I first started racing. I was new and young, and assumed everyone else knew what they were doing.

 

Then I skippered a few boats and thought I knew everything with my crew being new and young assuming that I did. Looking back, I know that I didn't.

 

Now, with less miles than most but more miles than many, I'm aware of the fact that I will never know enough.

 

My condolences to everyone connected to the two tragedies this month.

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I have a waypoint just outside the green can, which brings me along a course the splits that difference between Bird Rock and Ship Rock, directly from outside LA Light.

We do the same---but I always set another waypoint at least 2 miles out before the channels/rocks/points/entrances/whatever. Just in case and all.....

Most of us have similar practices. But you need to remember that not everyone can navigate well. I've been with otherwise smart people who just don't "get" navigation. I've seen courses set to steer right across dry land/rocky peninsulas.

 

But it's pretty pointless (and inconsiderate) to speculate on the events that transpired on AEGEAN without full facts.

 

Respectful speculation is not necessarily evil; it can lead to answers. I wonder if anyone out there can absolutely verify the authenticity of the SPOT tracker data? If so, then that is a piece of data that is technical evidence of what happened to Aegean, at least initially. It is mostly the why that is unclear.

 

When there are two such disparate theories as there are in this particular incident, people are, rightfully so, going to be f'in disturbed about it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

PURE SPECULATION: I wonder if they got to the intermittent waypoint a lot faster than they expected to due to current, motor-sailing or whatever? Just another theory on what could go wrong in navigating. Does anyone know if the speeds between the SPOT signals were consistent? I'm too simple for that math.

 

 

 

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Words cannot describe...

 

This makes me think back to some of the races I crewed on when I first started racing. I was new and young, and assumed everyone else knew what they were doing.

 

Then I skippered a few boats and thought I knew everything with my crew being new and young assuming that I did. Looking back, I know that I didn't.

 

Now, with less miles than most but more miles than many, I'm aware of the fact that I will never know enough.

 

My condolences to everyone connected to the two tragedies this month.

 

+100

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This report with some more comment by Lamb, the safety patrol give a little more insight. Lamb says he spotted a boat 'too close" to the islands (around 9 am I presume), but encountered the debris field as he approached (from the south I presume).

 

The race goes through shipping lanes and

 

it's possible for a large ship to hit a sailboat and not even know it, especially at night, said Rich Roberts, a spokesman for the race organizer. Two race participants who were in the area at the time the Aegean vanished told The Associated Press they saw or heard a freighter. A GPS race tracking system indicated the Aegean disappeared about 1:30 a.m. PDT (4:30 a.m. EDT) Saturday, Roberts said. Race organizers weren't closely monitoring the race at that hour but a disappearing signal is no cause for alarm because receivers occasionally suffer glitches, he said.

 

"Somebody may have thought the thing was broken," Roberts said.

 

What can we learn about this? Spot seems to work very well. The track shows the vessel going into an island and debris is found 9 hours later where an average .23 knot current would place it. A race committee can sit at a computer monitor and follow the boats . . . or can they? Page 1 and Page 2 of the tracks shows times where there are gaps in the Spot tracks. Are there glitches, or do competitors place them in locations that interfere with the signal? I wonder what Spot would have shown if all the CF competitors had them. Since you can connect the Spot system to a smart phone and send txt messages through a satellite, you could have competitors check in a certain distance away from rocky islands.

 

How many of use use smart phones?

 

I wonder what Keelhaulin would say?

 

Spots are used extensively for keeping track of competitors during the Watertribe Everglades Challenge. They work very well for reporting position as long as the operator remembers to turn it on and activate tracking and they don't succumb to water intrusion. They are supposed to be waterproof (to a point) but the collective experience is they don't do well when continuously exposed to salt water. They eventually leak and fail. I keep my Spot in a dry location on my boat and have had good luck so far. When overlaying my Spot track with my GPS track, I always find they are within a very few feet of each other.

 

The way tracking works is Spot attempts to send a signal every 10 minutes with the current position and time. Where there are gaps in the track, all it means is that the transmission was not received. The shared page only shows 50 points per page and only keeps the last 7 days worth of tracks. The account owner can retrieve their tracks for a longer period of time, but I don't what exactly that is. The tracks are downloadable in formats readable by various charting programs. It's been a while since I did it, but I think they support GPX and KML files.

 

The Spot itself does not float and it needs to be positioned with a clear view of the sky. IMO, it's extremely unlikely that the unit continued to transmit once the boat broke up and the Spot went in the water. It either sank or failed from salt water intrusion.

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Also very interesting to read about the skipper of the boat, pretty interesting guy: http://www.glgresearch.com/Council-Member/Theo-Mavromatis-35073.html

 

Indeed!

 

Theo Mavromatis is the President of Aegean Consulting. He is an acknowledged authority on satellite communication systems, networks, and services, wireless broadband terrestrial communication networks and services (including MMDS, LMDS, Unlicensed, Wi-Fi, WLL, 3G, etc.), High Definition TV (HDTV), and aerospace systems. Previously, Mr. Mavromatis was the Vice President of Business Development at The Boeing Company.

 

Mr. Mavromatis has expertise in software development for complex scientific and networking applications. In addition, he has extensive experience in the creation and operation of new multi-million dollar ventures and start-up companies primarily in the telecommunications, networking, and aerospace industries. Mr. Mavromatis has been an executive, senior manager or technology consultant for several large corporations (including Boeing, Hughes, Loral, Lockheed-Martin, General Electric, IBM, Raytheon, and DIRECTV) as well as for several small companies and new ventures, and has been a representative for the American satellite communications industry in United Nations Space Policy conferences.

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Interesting chunk from a news article:

 

Eric Lamb was the first to find debris of the boat - most no larger than six inches - scattered over about two square miles Saturday as he worked safety patrol on the race. He saw a small refrigerator, a white seat cushion and empty containers of yogurt and soy milk.

"We pulled a lot of boats off the rocks over the years and boats that hit the rocks, they don't look like that. This was almost like it had gone through a blender," said Lamb, 62.

A Coast Guard helicopter circling overhead directed him and a partner to two floating bodies. Both had severe cuts and bruises, and one of them had major head trauma.

Two race participants who were in the area at the time the Aegean disappeared said they saw or heard a freighter.

Cindy Arosteguy of Oxnard, Calif., remembers hearing on her radio someone say, "Do you see us?" as she saw a tanker about a half-mile away.

"I got back on the radio and said, `Yes, I see you,'" she said. "It was definitely a freighter."

 

Looking at the surface currents they were not very strong at the time of the incident.

When I pull up the AIS records on ship-finder etc. I don't see any big ships going through at that time (perhaps I am filtering it wrong? Does anyone else see any big ships at 1:30am in this area?)

I've ran boats aground a few times at speeds similar to this with very little damage. I have also seen the damage done to power boats when hitting stationary objects at much higher speeds and it's certainly not 'as though they went through a blender', more like a big hole in the boat... I have also sailed around these islands a lot of times and they certainly aren't very menacing, especially with only 6-8 foot swell. I hardly think hitting the north side could cause this sort of damage.

 

Also it is very interesting that the race committee and the media was so quick to blame a freighter or other boat on boat collision in the beginning, and they also stated they knew the boat disappeared because they saw its tracker stop sending. One would think if they looked at the tracker they would have said they hit right into the north island, as it seems obvious to the rest of us when we look at that.

 

Something is seriously not adding up in this story. If there weren't any big freighters in the area as AIS records indicate then what was the big ship the other boats saw out there that they thought was a freighter?

More questions than answers here...

 

Also very interesting to read about the skipper of the boat, pretty interesting guy: http://www.glgresear...atis-35073.html

 

Seems like the North Shore of the island is more like the North Face. Reminds me of the Marin Headlands outside of the Golden Gate. But that shoreline has a narrow shelf at the waterline. Has Lamb (or anyone else) ever pulled a boat of 'the rocks' on the North Face of the that island? The Flying Tiger that went aground on the cliff face of the Marin Headlands was toast as soon as the keel got between rocks on the shelf. The shelf that LSC wound up on was very different.

 

There are rocks and then there are rocks.

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I have a waypoint just outside the green can, which brings me along a course the splits that difference between Bird Rock and Ship Rock, directly from outside LA Light.

We do the same---but I always set another waypoint at least 2 miles out before the channels/rocks/points/entrances/whatever. Just in case and all.....

Most of us have similar practices. But you need to remember that not everyone can navigate well. I've been with otherwise smart people who just don't "get" navigation. I've seen courses set to steer right across dry land/rocky peninsulas.

 

But it's pretty pointless (and inconsiderate) to speculate on the events that transpired on AEGEAN without full facts.

 

Respectful speculation is not necessarily evil; it can lead to answers. I wonder if anyone out there can absolutely verify the authenticity of the SPOT tracker data? If so, then that is a piece of data that is technical evidence of what happened to Aegean, at least initially. It is mostly the why that is unclear.

 

When there are two such disparate theories as there are in this particular incident, people are, rightfully so, going to be f'in disturbed about it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

PURE SPECULATION: I wonder if they got to the intermittent waypoint a lot faster than they expected to due to current, motor-sailing or whatever? Just another theory on what could go wrong in navigating. Does anyone know if the speeds between the SPOT signals were consistent? I'm too simple for that math.

 

Yes, look at the track. The spots are equally spaced at set time intervals. Therefore, the speed was constant near the end.

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From an insurance company perspective, I think I'd rather look for a ship than an island . . .

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Interesting chunk from a news article:

 

Eric Lamb was the first to find debris of the boat - most no larger than six inches - scattered over about two square miles Saturday as he worked safety patrol on the race. He saw a small refrigerator, a white seat cushion and empty containers of yogurt and soy milk.

"We pulled a lot of boats off the rocks over the years and boats that hit the rocks, they don't look like that. This was almost like it had gone through a blender," said Lamb, 62.

A Coast Guard helicopter circling overhead directed him and a partner to two floating bodies. Both had severe cuts and bruises, and one of them had major head trauma.

Two race participants who were in the area at the time the Aegean disappeared said they saw or heard a freighter.

Cindy Arosteguy of Oxnard, Calif., remembers hearing on her radio someone say, "Do you see us?" as she saw a tanker about a half-mile away.

"I got back on the radio and said, `Yes, I see you,'" she said. "It was definitely a freighter."

 

Looking at the surface currents they were not very strong at the time of the incident.

When I pull up the AIS records on ship-finder etc. I don't see any big ships going through at that time (perhaps I am filtering it wrong? Does anyone else see any big ships at 1:30am in this area?)

I've ran boats aground a few times at speeds similar to this with very little damage. I have also seen the damage done to power boats when hitting stationary objects at much higher speeds and it's certainly not 'as though they went through a blender', more like a big hole in the boat... I have also sailed around these islands a lot of times and they certainly aren't very menacing, especially with only 6-8 foot swell. I hardly think hitting the north side could cause this sort of damage.

 

Also it is very interesting that the race committee and the media was so quick to blame a freighter or other boat on boat collision in the beginning, and they also stated they knew the boat disappeared because they saw its tracker stop sending. One would think if they looked at the tracker they would have said they hit right into the north island, as it seems obvious to the rest of us when we look at that.

 

Something is seriously not adding up in this story. If there weren't any big freighters in the area as AIS records indicate then what was the big ship the other boats saw out there that they thought was a freighter?

More questions than answers here...

 

Also very interesting to read about the skipper of the boat, pretty interesting guy: http://www.glgresearch.com/Council-Member/Theo-Mavromatis-35073.html

 

You sum up most of the conflicting info I've seen.

 

If you read back about 10 pages, some were ready to launch a lynch mob after one tanker that left Rosarito and crossed the race path around that time.

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OK....I know this thread is pretty long now but damn boys, go back and at least scan through it. A lot of you that are just comming in are bring up crap that has been raised and answered several pages back.

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This report with some more comment by Lamb, the safety patrol give a little more insight. Lamb says he spotted a boat 'too close" to the islands (around 9 am I presume), but encountered the debris field as he approached (from the south I presume).

 

What can we learn about this? Spot seems to work very well. The track shows the vessel going into an island and debris is found 9 hours later where an average .23 knot current would place it. A race committee can sit at a computer monitor and follow the boats . . . or can they? Page 1 and Page 2 of the tracks shows times where there are gaps in the Spot tracks. Are there glitches, or do competitors place them in locations that interfere with the signal? I wonder what Spot would have shown if all the CF competitors had them. Since you can connect the Spot system to a smart phone and send txt messages through a satellite, you could have competitors check in a certain distance away from rocky islands.

 

 

The Track Progress feature of the SPOT device has to be manually reset every 24 hours, hence the gaps...

SPOT trackers are inexpensive, and people on land like to know where you are when they are there, so many sailors have them. I wonder if any other racers would be willing to share their tracks here?

 

 

 

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New article:

 

http://www.10news.com/news/30976995/detail.html

 

"The president of the U.S. Sailing Association told 10News over the phone that a woman on another sailboat witnessed the accident, telling investigators the Aegean was hit by a cargo ship."

 

"10News has learned many yachtsmen now have an Automatic Identification System, known as AIS."

 

Real muckrakers, aren't they?

 

As for sharing Spot tracks it's no big deal. Here's mine: http://share.findmespot.com/shared/faces/viewspots.jsp?glId=0zD4bncx1bo6uYNrSK80WDHYhTaZfJHsE

 

But it won't show anything for a about two more weeks until I go sailing.

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New article:

 

http://www.10news.com/news/30976995/detail.html

 

"The president of the U.S. Sailing Association told 10News over the phone that a woman on another sailboat witnessed the accident, telling investigators the Aegean was hit by a cargo ship."

 

That article also speculates that he might not have been able to start his motor--we KNOW that ain't true! At least if the Spot tracker is authentic and accurate.

 

This makes no sense. Did the witness make radio contact with anyone? Just watch a collision and wait a couple days to come forward? No mayday? Hmmm....

 

Edit: Didn't even bother to attempt a rescue?

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While it's still to early to really know for sure the whole story, my speculation is like this:

 

Both leading PC-based navigation solutions will fail to show even large hard spots when zoomed out. The GPS was probably navigating to a waypoint set at the finish. When the wind died and the motor went on, the auto pilot was set to drive to the active GPS waypoint - it's likely just one button push. No one looked to see what was along that course line - even if they did, they'd likely have seen nothing.

 

With the motor on, one or more of the off-watch crew sacked out in the V-berth just to get away from the racket. The rest, elsewhere in the cabin.

 

The on-deck watch never noticed the black-on-black sillouette of the island. If you're not looking for such, on a dark night, it can be really, really hard to find unlit things against the horizon. With lots of boats around, it's easy to look at things that are easy to see and miss the things that are so hard. Either that, or the combination of early morning hours, fatigue and the droning of the motor just lulled them to sleep.

 

The boat hit the rocks, that much seems apparent based on the limited data available. The crew in the V-berth suffered head injuries. In the swell, against the vertical cliffs, the boat just got ground to bits and as it disintegrated, some sunk and some slowly floated clear. Likewise for the crew. It's possible that the missing crew member is still tethered to the big chunk.

 

It would be interesting to know if there was any moon light at all around 0130 that morning as any ambient light would really increase the chances of seeing the rock. Similarly, it would be nice to know whether the on-board navigation was done via eyeball, paper, chart plotter or PC. Also, above, someone says the boat had radar and it's hard to understand why the radar wouldn't be running and checked regularly when the engine is running as power ought to be available in spades. Did the radar work? Did the crew know how to operate it? Was it so clear that someone might choose to not use the most valuable piece of night time navigation equipment ever invented?

 

Sigh ...

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New article:

 

http://www.10news.co...995/detail.html

 

"The president of the U.S. Sailing Association told 10News over the phone that a woman on another sailboat witnessed the accident, telling investigators the Aegean was hit by a cargo ship."

 

I believe the SPOT tracks, not some woman making up a story to get attention. If she really witnessed anything, it would've been all over the radio waves instantly don't ya think?

 

 

 

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If the president of U.S. sailing was correctly quoted he is a bigger dumb ass than many people think he is. My little worthless theory on this latest is either some female crew person lied her ass off and Gary repeated it without doing his due dilegence OR theres a cover up of some kind.

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While it's still to early to really know for sure the whole story, my speculation is like this:

 

Both leading PC-based navigation solutions will fail to show even large hard spots when zoomed out. The GPS was probably navigating to a waypoint set at the finish. When the wind died and the motor went on, the auto pilot was set to drive to the active GPS waypoint - it's likely just one button push. No one looked to see what was along that course line - even if they did, they'd likely have seen nothing.

 

With the motor on, one or more of the off-watch crew sacked out in the V-berth just to get away from the racket. The rest, elsewhere in the cabin.

 

The on-deck watch never noticed the black-on-black sillouette of the island. If you're not looking for such, on a dark night, it can be really, really hard to find unlit things against the horizon. With lots of boats around, it's easy to look at things that are easy to see and miss the things that are so hard. Either that, or the combination of early morning hours, fatigue and the droning of the motor just lulled them to sleep.

 

The boat hit the rocks, that much seems apparent based on the limited data available. The crew in the V-berth suffered head injuries. In the swell, against the vertical cliffs, the boat just got ground to bits and as it disintegrated, some sunk and some slowly floated clear. Likewise for the crew. It's possible that the missing crew member is still tethered to the big chunk.

 

It would be interesting to know if there was any moon light at all around 0130 that morning as any ambient light would really increase the chances of seeing the rock. Similarly, it would be nice to know whether the on-board navigation was done via eyeball, paper, chart plotter or PC. Also, above, someone says the boat had radar and it's hard to understand why the radar wouldn't be running and checked regularly when the engine is running as power ought to be available in spades. Did the radar work? Did the crew know how to operate it? Was it so clear that someone might choose to not use the most valuable piece of night time navigation equipment ever invented?

 

Sigh ...

 

+1

 

But what about the "eye witness?" Just a misunderstanding by typically clueless reporter?

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While it's still to early to really know for sure the whole story, my speculation is like this:

 

Both leading PC-based navigation solutions will fail to show even large hard spots when zoomed out. The GPS was probably navigating to a waypoint set at the finish. When the wind died and the motor went on, the auto pilot was set to drive to the active GPS waypoint - it's likely just one button push. No one looked to see what was along that course line - even if they did, they'd likely have seen nothing.

 

With the motor on, one or more of the off-watch crew sacked out in the V-berth just to get away from the racket. The rest, elsewhere in the cabin.

 

The on-deck watch never noticed the black-on-black sillouette of the island. If you're not looking for such, on a dark night, it can be really, really hard to find unlit things against the horizon. With lots of boats around, it's easy to look at things that are easy to see and miss the things that are so hard. Either that, or the combination of early morning hours, fatigue and the droning of the motor just lulled them to sleep.

 

The boat hit the rocks, that much seems apparent based on the limited data available. The crew in the V-berth suffered head injuries. In the swell, against the vertical cliffs, the boat just got ground to bits and as it disintegrated, some sunk and some slowly floated clear. Likewise for the crew. It's possible that the missing crew member is still tethered to the big chunk.

 

It would be interesting to know if there was any moon light at all around 0130 that morning as any ambient light would really increase the chances of seeing the rock. Similarly, it would be nice to know whether the on-board navigation was done via eyeball, paper, chart plotter or PC. Also, above, someone says the boat had radar and it's hard to understand why the radar wouldn't be running and checked regularly when the engine is running as power ought to be available in spades. Did the radar work? Did the crew know how to operate it? Was it so clear that someone might choose to not use the most valuable piece of night time navigation equipment ever invented?

 

Sigh ...

 

A) I think they were smarter than that.

B) Really doubt they were tethered down below.

C) If some chick really saw a "cargo ship" hit the Aegean, it had to hit the island first, according to the only real data we have seen.

D) Why aren't the authorities addressing the issue of the SPOT data leading directly to the island? I know data lies sometimes, but SPOT, not.

E) How do you explain the SPOT hitting the island at the exact time the boat "disappears" (I don't call that disappearing) on the tracker.

 

 

 

 

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post-15111-064525600 1335845936_thumb.jpgI used to take dive trips out to North Island, and have been around that North point at very close range in my 21' RIB many, many times. That is a very nasty point with the waves crashing on jagged rocks and cliffs. Crashing waves shoot 30'+ into the air on that north face. I've watched it in a 6-8' swell, and it could definately eat a sailboat pretty quickly. The 1st 100' as you go around the backside of the island is especially ragged, and takes direct impacts from a NW swell, then it gets a little better as you go south along the rocks.

 

If the guys were able to get off of the boat, they would have to really be waterman, swimming seaward away from the rocks. In the cold water, they might have tried to cling to the rocks, and that would explain the severe injuries. A lifeguard could swim his way out of that situation, but not most other people, and especially not wearing a wetsuit.

 

A crew below is only as safe as their least experienced, and most sleepy crewmember on watch alone.

 

I'm so sorry for the families.

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If the president of U.S. sailing was correctly quoted he is a bigger dumb ass than many people think he is. My little worthless theory on this latest is either some female crew person lied her ass off and Gary repeated it without doing his due dilegence OR theres a cover up of some kind.

 

 

So lets assume she wasn't lying (which would be a pretty despicable thing to do). If there weren't any freighters or tankers in the area giving out an AIS signal, then what other kind of ship could be out there that is big enough to look like a freighter in the dark of night, and that doesn't put out an AIS signal? And if the boat was really run over by this mystery ship, why would anyone want to cover that up? And who would have the ability to cover it up and possibly alter the spot-track to show everyone that the boat simply sailed into the island? (I only mention possibly an alteration to the spot-track as the track we are all looking at doesn't seem to be the same one that the race committee was looking at when they stated they saw the boat stop transmitting and it must have gotten hit by a ship...)

 

Still just asking questions, doesn't seem like there's hardly any reliable data out there right now as none of the reports seem to be in agreement with each other.

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The eyewitness account makes no sense. Anyone who saw a collision would surely have done something, anything. I suspect the individual was misunderstood and/or Jobson was misquoted. What's clear is that there was enough commercial traffic through the fleet that on more than a few instances some evasive action was taken by both participant and ships - a 4th party conversation about such an incident could easily go from "I saw a ship practically hit a boat" to "I saw a boat hit". Clearly the latter makes much better entertainment news than the former.

 

I'd guess it will be another 2-3 days before the noise settles out and a clear picture emerges. I'd also guess that a good look at the north face of the island - both above and below the water - will be very telling.

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If the president of U.S. sailing was correctly quoted he is a bigger dumb ass than many people think he is. My little worthless theory on this latest is either some female crew person lied her ass off and Gary repeated it without doing his due dilegence OR theres a cover up of some kind.

Not a single "authority" has been quoted on why the SPOT leads to an island and stops working at 1:36 am.

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I used to take dive trips out to North Island, and have been around that North point at very close range in my 21' RIB many, many times. That is a very nasty point with the waves crashing on jagged rocks and cliffs. Crashing waves shoot 30'+ into the air on that north face. I've watched it in a 6-8' swell, and it could definately eat a sailboat pretty quickly. The 1st 100' as you go around the backside of the island is especially ragged, and takes direct impacts from a NW swell, then it gets a little better as you go south along the rocks.

 

If the guys were able to get off of the boat, they would have to really be waterman, swimming seaward away from the rocks. In the cold water, they might have tried to cling to the rocks, and that would explain the severe injuries. A lifeguard could swim his way out of that situation, but not most other people, and especially not wearing a wetsuit.

 

A crew is only as safe as their least experienced, and most sleepy crewmember on watch.

 

I'm so sorry for the families.

 

The gentlemen that pulled the two bodies from the water said they were still tethered to pieces of the boat.

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The eyewitness account makes no sense. Anyone who saw a collision would surely have done something, anything. I suspect the individual was misunderstood and/or Jobson was misquoted. What's clear is that there was enough commercial traffic through the fleet that on more than a few instances some evasive action was taken by both participant and ships - a 4th party conversation about such an incident could easily go from "I saw a ship practically hit a boat" to "I saw a boat hit". Clearly the latter makes much better entertainment news than the former.

 

I'd guess it will be another 2-3 days before the noise settles out and a clear picture emerges. I'd also guess that a good look at the north face of the island - both above and below the water - will be very telling.

 

+1

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I think it HIGHLY unlikely the Spot track could have been altered. That's real tin-foil hat territory. It would have to have been someone inside Spot LLC. Occam's razor applies here.

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I think it HIGHLY unlikely the Spot track could have been altered. That's real tin-foil hat territory. It would have to have been someone inside Spot LLC. Occam's razor applies here.

Agreed, just wanted to point out that it might be possible. I, for one, believe the SPOT data.

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I don't want to pontificate here, but there are some very valid facts about navigating a racing yacht that should be brought to light.

 

Time and again in races here in Hawaii, including a couple HoloHolo's, I've found that my professional mariner level of comfort has been overridden by a skipper/tactician who are way more comfortable going inside/close to hazards. If swells aren't breaking next to the boat, they're cool with it. They put faith in fathometer readings, not realizing that in most of the Pacific, you don't get a gradually shoaling fatho reading, just a sharp edge to hit, or a coral head. Until I screamed damn near bloody murder, they kept pushing to shave the corner. Some of that was due to having more "local knowledge" experience, but some of it was simple ignorance.

 

Fathometer readings are ONLY good for verifying your position, period. A deep fatho reading can turn into a grounding in the space of seconds.

 

BTW-almost ALL Furuno brand radars have a "Watchman" feature that transmits for a short period every 15 minutes or so. So, if you do some 3-minute rule action and assume a 20KT merchant and 10KTS of your own boatspeed, you get 30*100=3000YDS in 3 minutes or 1000YDS/minute closure rate. So if you want to give yourself a few minutes of analysis plus a few minutes of start the engine and drive off track, you need to set the interval to match your expected detection range. (I would use 24KYDS on a standard Furuno). I'm sure Raymarine and the rest have similar features.

 

The other thing I see is an implicit trust in GPS. GPS can be inaccurate...there are HYDROPAC's out there describing why. I've seen GPS miles off while still showing FM1. You have to use the chartplotter/GPS as a tool, verify it with your sounding, and check what you're seeing against expected sightings of lights/buoys/landmarks.

 

Again, food for thought.

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Gray,

 

To your list - of course - all speculation ...

 

A - Smarter than that. You'd like to think so, but sailing onto hard spots as the result of not checking one's course line happens a lot. A cruising cat went onto South Minerva Reef this last season just a few hours after leaving North Minerva Reef for exactly the same reason. There are dozens and dozens of other such incidents. And yet, the manufacturers of navigation solutions just don't seem to care about this useless and dangerous "feature" of their products.

 

B - No tethered in below. I agree. My speculation is that perhaps the on-watch crew was tethered in the cockpit - perhaps as a result of the Farallones incident.

 

C - Unconfirmed 4th party quote. It just makes no sense. Until there's a lot more investigation, I'd write it off as noise.

 

D - This is disturbing, but there's really no information forthcoming from any offical source yet other than the initial information. I'd guess it will be 2-3 days before we see anything concrete.

 

E - To me it's pretty simple. The reason the spot track stops at the island is because the boat stopped at the island.

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If the president of U.S. sailing was correctly quoted he is a bigger dumb ass than many people think he is. My little worthless theory on this latest is either some female crew person lied her ass off and Gary repeated it without doing his due dilegence OR theres a cover up of some kind.

 

I spoke with Gary this afternoon, on several topics, this being the prime one.

 

He never mentioned any witness, he had only been working off of very limited information, and was in his office until 2330hrs Sunday night talking to various authorities and getting set up to put together a panel to help investigate this, in coordination with the USCG.

 

After our conversation, he called me back about 1630hrs to say that he had just heard from the USCG they thought the boat hit the island.

 

I'd take all these msm reports with a gain of salt, starting with the LA Times from an hour or so ago - we have better info here than the Times does.

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Below is a table of calcs I did on the last 10 positions. Speed is in knots and dist in nm. If they are correct that sort of speed should not generate that sort of damage. If the AIS trackers show no commercial ships in the area, then what about the grey funnel line? Whatever the cause, losing fellow sailors sucks.

 

N E Time Dist Speed Elapsed time

32.58502 -117.43469 19:06:32

32.57012 -117.41977 19:16:30 0.907356384 5.46 0:09:58

32.55494 -117.40477 19:26:31 0.9243 5.54 0:10:01

32.53951 -117.38988 19:36:31 0.939102726 5.63 0:10:00

32.52401 -117.37465 19:46:31 0.943917174 5.66 0:10:00

32.50806 -117.35938 19:56:32 0.970990374 5.82 0:10:01

32.49211 -117.34409 20:06:32 0.971027046 5.83 0:10:00

32.47595 -117.32864 20:16:35 0.98392215 5.87 0:10:03

32.45931 -117.31311 20:26:54 1.012870854 5.89 0:10:19

32.44532 -117.29999 20:36:56 0.849728064 5.08 0:10:02

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I think it HIGHLY unlikely the Spot track could have been altered. That's real tin-foil hat territory. It would have to have been someone inside Spot LLC. Occam's razor applies here.

Tin-foil hats seem to be back in style, so I didn't want to leave that stone unturned.

 

 

 

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This race was ISAF category 3 with AIS Transponder recommended.

 

In category 2 the AIS Transponder is already a must.

 

There is a big difference pricewise between AIS receiver andtransponder !!!!

Not sure about the powerconsumption of a transponder vs. receiver.

 

Whether or not the Aegean had AIS or not (receiver or transponder) --it's worthwhile noting that only vessels larger than 299 gross tons are required to carry AIS transponders tracking their speed and course.

 

Curious what 299 gross tons means, more or less, in ship size, I googled it and found info on this 120 ft/36 m. luxury yacht, Red Anchor, which is 299 gross tons.

 

This suggests to me that those who have AIS receivers on board may not be aware of their limitations and may be under the impression that ALL large commercial ships have AIS transponders, and not just those over 299 gross tons, or 100 or so feet...meaning that there are a lot of large vessels out there that do not appear on AIS...leading to the easy and all-too-logical-seeming assumption, in this age of digital navigation, that if the AIS screen doesn't show a ship, then there must not be one there...radar is a LOT harder to read properly. AIS is almost "too easy"...and easy to get wrong.

 

Again, it will probably never be known if AIS played a role in this incident, but it's easy to see how one could become reliant on and forgetful of AIS's limitations, and be lulled into a false sense of security with regard to maritime traffic out there...easy for some people to do the same with a chartplotter, and believe that it's showing them everything in the right place...then...crunch...

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If the president of U.S. sailing was correctly quoted he is a bigger dumb ass than many people think he is. My little worthless theory on this latest is either some female crew person lied her ass off and Gary repeated it without doing his due dilegence OR theres a cover up of some kind.

 

I spoke with Gary this afternoon, on several topics, this being the prime one.

 

He never mentioned any witness, he had only been working off of very limited information, and was in his office until 2330hrs Sunday night talking to various authorities and getting set up to put together a panel to help investigate this, in coordination with the USCG.

 

After our conversation, he called me back about 1630hrs to say that he had just heard from the USCG they thought the boat hit the island.

 

I'd take all these msm reports with a gain of salt, starting with the LA Times from an hour or so ago - we have better info here than the Times does.

 

This is much closer to what I would like to think, a mis quote. Although we have all seen Mr. Jobson pull shit out before, I just wouldn't think he would do it on something like this. The worst part is that even when mistakes in reporting are brought to the attention of the reporters, they don't care.

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Driftwood,

 

Your post doesn't make sense to me. Autohelm is a brand of auto pilot. Depending on the make and installation, an auto pilot can navigate to a compass heading, a GPS waypoint, apparent wind angle or true wind angle.

 

When navigating to a waypoint, most auto pilots really only look at the cross track error and work to reduce cross track error to zero. As a result, any current induced set-and-drift and any leeway are incorporated into the steering and the boat should get driven straight down the course line to the waypoint provided it's been properly commissioned.

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I could see it hitting the Island that could happen But with the little bit of wind there was I can see how they didn't see or hear it, crashing waves would keep me alert. May be a heavy fog It is definitely very strange

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Below is a table of calcs I did on the last 10 positions. Speed is in knots and dist in nm. If they are correct that sort of speed should not generate that sort of damage. If the AIS trackers show no commercial ships in the area, then what about the grey funnel line? Whatever the cause, losing fellow sailors sucks.

 

N E Time Dist Speed Elapsed time

32.58502 -117.43469 19:06:32

32.57012 -117.41977 19:16:30 0.907356384 5.46 0:09:58

32.55494 -117.40477 19:26:31 0.9243 5.54 0:10:01

32.53951 -117.38988 19:36:31 0.939102726 5.63 0:10:00

32.52401 -117.37465 19:46:31 0.943917174 5.66 0:10:00

32.50806 -117.35938 19:56:32 0.970990374 5.82 0:10:01

32.49211 -117.34409 20:06:32 0.971027046 5.83 0:10:00

32.47595 -117.32864 20:16:35 0.98392215 5.87 0:10:03

32.45931 -117.31311 20:26:54 1.012870854 5.89 0:10:19

32.44532 -117.29999 20:36:56 0.849728064 5.08 0:10:02

 

Uh...yeah. this was all worked out several pages ago and you also need to speak to those that have seen groundings in similar places and conditions. And then maybee look at the brickhouse tough quality of a Hunter 37.

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New article:

 

http://www.10news.co...995/detail.html

 

"The president of the U.S. Sailing Association told 10News over the phone that a woman on another sailboat witnessed the accident, telling investigators the Aegean was hit by a cargo ship."

 

That article also speculates that he might not have been able to start his motor--we KNOW that ain't true! At least if the Spot tracker is authentic and accurate.

 

This makes no sense. Did the witness make radio contact with anyone? Just watch a collision and wait a couple days to come forward? No mayday? Hmmm....

 

Edit: Didn't even bother to attempt a rescue?

There was a report somewhere the engine is new. The SPOT indicates motoring. The woman's story is not holding water.

 

 

 

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Below is a table of calcs I did on the last 10 positions. Speed is in knots and dist in nm. If they are correct that sort of speed should not generate that sort of damage. If the AIS trackers show no commercial ships in the area, then what about the grey funnel line? Whatever the cause, losing fellow sailors sucks.

 

N E Time Dist Speed Elapsed time

32.58502 -117.43469 19:06:32

32.57012 -117.41977 19:16:30 0.907356384 5.46 0:09:58

32.55494 -117.40477 19:26:31 0.9243 5.54 0:10:01

32.53951 -117.38988 19:36:31 0.939102726 5.63 0:10:00

32.52401 -117.37465 19:46:31 0.943917174 5.66 0:10:00

32.50806 -117.35938 19:56:32 0.970990374 5.82 0:10:01

32.49211 -117.34409 20:06:32 0.971027046 5.83 0:10:00

32.47595 -117.32864 20:16:35 0.98392215 5.87 0:10:03

32.45931 -117.31311 20:26:54 1.012870854 5.89 0:10:19

32.44532 -117.29999 20:36:56 0.849728064 5.08 0:10:02

 

Uh...yeah. this was all worked out several pages ago and you also need to speak to those that have seen groundings in similar places and conditions. And then maybee look at the brickhouse tough quality of a Hunter 37.

A grounding, then a pounding.

 

 

 

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I could see it hitting the Island that could happen But with the little bit of wind there was I can see how they didn't see or hear it, crashing waves would keep me alert. May be a heavy fog It is definitely very strange

 

You hear a fuck of a lot more in heavy fog!

 

But it was a clear night.

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Below is a table of calcs I did on the last 10 positions. Speed is in knots and dist in nm. If they are correct that sort of speed should not generate that sort of damage. If the AIS trackers show no commercial ships in the area, then what about the grey funnel line? Whatever the cause, losing fellow sailors sucks.

 

N E Time Dist Speed Elapsed time

32.58502 -117.43469 19:06:32

32.57012 -117.41977 19:16:30 0.907356384 5.46 0:09:58

32.55494 -117.40477 19:26:31 0.9243 5.54 0:10:01

32.53951 -117.38988 19:36:31 0.939102726 5.63 0:10:00

32.52401 -117.37465 19:46:31 0.943917174 5.66 0:10:00

32.50806 -117.35938 19:56:32 0.970990374 5.82 0:10:01

32.49211 -117.34409 20:06:32 0.971027046 5.83 0:10:00

32.47595 -117.32864 20:16:35 0.98392215 5.87 0:10:03

32.45931 -117.31311 20:26:54 1.012870854 5.89 0:10:19

32.44532 -117.29999 20:36:56 0.849728064 5.08 0:10:02

 

Uh...yeah. this was all worked out several pages ago and you also need to speak to those that have seen groundings in similar places and conditions. And then maybee look at the brickhouse tough quality of a Hunter 37.

I don't think anyone thinks the grounding in and of itself could cause that damage. We won't even get into what people think of Hunter construction, pointless. Way back in this thread there is spec of an explosion (grounding, spark, boom), maybe someone was making coffee (flame), maybe grounding then drift in 0.23 current to later be hit by another vessel 2 miles West of South C., ...who knows. One thing is clear, the SPOT leads to the island at over 6 knots of boat-speed, and no one in the press speaks to this data.

 

 

 

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post-15111-064525600 1335845936_thumb.jpgI used to take dive trips out to North Island, and have been around that North point at very close range in my 21' RIB many, many times. That is a very nasty point with the waves crashing on jagged rocks and cliffs. Crashing waves shoot 30'+ into the air on that north face. I've watched it in a 6-8' swell, and it could definately eat a sailboat pretty quickly. The 1st 100' as you go around the backside of the island is especially ragged, and takes direct impacts from a NW swell, then it gets a little better as you go south along the rocks.

 

If the guys were able to get off of the boat, they would have to really be waterman, swimming seaward away from the rocks. In the cold water, they might have tried to cling to the rocks, and that would explain the severe injuries. A lifeguard could swim his way out of that situation, but not most other people, and especially not wearing a wetsuit.

 

A crew below is only as safe as their least experienced, and most sleepy crewmember on watch alone.

 

I'm so sorry for the families.

 

We hit a fixed object at around 6 knots on April 21st and glanced off with a scrape. The Spot Track T-bones the north face, which looks like a cliff 200-300 feet wide. With a 6-8 ft swell miles offshore of that point, heading directly broadside at it.

 

The collision won't eat the boat, but what happens next with it pinned there, being pounded broadside by every swell. LSC went onto a shoal with 12 ft (and occasional larger) swells carrying it up away from most of the swells, not into a cliff face.

 

I don't think sailboats get pulled into the props of ships, but I'm not sure there are any witnesses of such collisions either, so who knows?

 

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/_tUoUxzt9sI" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

<object width="560" height="315"><param name="movie" value="

name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="
type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="560" height="315" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true"></embed></object>

 

edit - weird, I thought I could just use the embed code . . . hmm

 

I'm very sorry for the families, they should stay away form SA.

 

As Grey Tabby said:

a grounding then a pounding

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Keep in mind that the Spot device is waterproof, so it is conceivable that it was attached to a piece of flotsam that ended up near Coronado island. This seems way more likely that a freighter hit them.

 

not at the rate it was moving down the track

 

I called and was told the tracker is good to within 27' of location

 

 

NOW as it's waterproof M / L why did it not keep pinging ??

 

how deep is it W/P to ??

 

if mounted to a chunk that went down @ the face of the island could it still be sending a signal 100' below the surface ??

It doesn't survive the impact/explosion/sub warfare/and final resting place in DJL.

 

 

 

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If there was another vessel involved - it's also possible that it fits the non-AIS, yet big enough to inflict the damage category and maybe could have sustained enough damage to have gone down too?

 

It's a terrible situation. I do hope we can find out what truly happened to help educate us all to keep this same type of tragedy from happening in the future

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I don't think anyone thinks the grounding in and of itself could cause that damage. We won't even get into what people think of Hunter construction, pointless. Way back in this thread there is spec of an explosion (grounding, spark, boom), maybe someone was making coffee (flame), maybe grounding then drift in 0.23 current to later be hit by another vessel 2 miles West of South C., ...who knows. One thing is clear, the SPOT leads to the island at over 6 knots of boat-speed, and no one in the press speaks to this data.

 

And the press won't till some reporter thinks the "new" info is at the top of his publishable list, then he will get it mostly wrong.

 

Again back to my feeble opinion....The witnesses to the debris field never really say how much debris there was. Was it an entire 37' boat worth or just the small floating pieces left after pounding on the cliff face several times? After reviewing the AIS track sites there were no large ships (transmitting AIS) close to the Coronados. Before the SPOT track was released it was easy to believe they were run down and shreaded.

I'm sure Mr. Lamb wasn't thinking at the time that they were traveling at over 6 knots, after all there was practicly NO wind that night. And who thinks, without seeing the track data, that they would have run into the North Coronado Cliffs. He (Mr. Lamb, the debris field witness) might have a diffeent opinion after seeing the SPOT data.

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Auto helm or auto pilot? Drift and set get thrown into the mix. .25 S current is enough if on auto helm to get them in trouble. On auto pilot depends on the way points set from the start. Current can set them off a good heading auto pilot should compensate. With out knowing the boats heading and set up that night anything is possible. You can hit a island and get off with little or no damage. That island as described above looks Bad if hit. With 4 crew I set Two on deck Two below . No reason to think they did not.

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Driftwood,

 

Your post doesn't make sense to me. Autohelm is a brand of auto pilot. Depending on the make and installation, an auto pilot can navigate to a compass heading, a GPS waypoint, apparent wind angle or true wind angle.

 

When navigating to a waypoint, most auto pilots really only look at the cross track error and work to reduce cross track error to zero. As a result, any current induced set-and-drift and any leeway are incorporated into the steering and the boat should get driven straight down the course line to the waypoint provided it's been properly commissioned.

 

Older and simple ones only input heading. With no way point interface or gps interface.

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I used to take dive trips out to North Island, and have been around that North point at very close range in my 21' RIB many, many times. That is a very nasty point with the waves crashing on jagged rocks and cliffs. Crashing waves shoot 30'+ into the air on that north face. I've watched it in a 6-8' swell, and it could definately eat a sailboat pretty quickly. The 1st 100' as you go around the backside of the island is especially ragged, and takes direct impacts from a NW swell, then it gets a little better as you go south along the rocks.

 

If the guys were able to get off of the boat, they would have to really be waterman, swimming seaward away from the rocks. In the cold water, they might have tried to cling to the rocks, and that would explain the severe injuries. A lifeguard could swim his way out of that situation, but not most other people, and especially not wearing a wetsuit.

 

A crew is only as safe as their least experienced, and most sleepy crewmember on watch.

 

I'm so sorry for the families.

 

The gentlemen that pulled the two bodies from the water said they were still tethered to pieces of the boat.

This indicates to me that there were two men on watch in the cockpit. Maybe one was making coffee for the watch crew, and one was cat-napping.

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This post is illustrative of why inexperienced people should not be allowed in overnight races.

 

So how is one to gain experience in overnight races if you wont allow them to?

 

You take legitimate courses from, e.g. the CG, gain boathandling skills in day races, and act as crew on overnight races, but not in a position as watch captain or skipper.

 

Yes, Yes

 

having won in the N2E in 2009 is no qualification for doing such an offshore race

 

Must take classes, read books &/or post on SA cool.gif

 

Actually, he "won" in a cruising class. That doesn't count.

 

The next question is, what were the qualifications of the watch captains?

 

Your turn...

 

Sad.

 

Personally, I'm with the people waiting for evidence.

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Keep in mind that the Spot device is waterproof, so it is conceivable that it was attached to a piece of flotsam that ended up near Coronado island. This seems way more likely that a freighter hit them.

 

not at the rate it was moving down the track

 

I called and was told the tracker is good to within 27' of location

 

 

NOW as it's waterproof M / L why did it not keep pinging ??

 

how deep is it W/P to ??

 

if mounted to a chunk that went down @ the face of the island could it still be sending a signal 100' below the surface ??

 

 

Spot trackers are WP up to 30 minutes in a depth of 1 meter (IPX7). They also float. And it's possible that the Aegean Spot floated on debris, if not on a body, perhaps damaged, for several minutes before it stopped tracking at 0130 (presumably after hitting the Coronado rocks).

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I don't think anyone thinks the grounding in and of itself could cause that damage. We won't even get into what people think of Hunter construction, pointless. Way back in this thread there is spec of an explosion (grounding, spark, boom), maybe someone was making coffee (flame), maybe grounding then drift in 0.23 current to later be hit by another vessel 2 miles West of South C., ...who knows. One thing is clear, the SPOT leads to the island at over 6 knots of boat-speed, and no one in the press speaks to this data.

 

And the press won't till some reporter thinks the "new" info is at the top of his publishable list, then he will get it mostly wrong.

 

Again back to my feeble opinion....The witnesses to the debris field never really say how much debris there was. Was it an entire 37' boat worth or just the small floating pieces left after pounding on the cliff face several times? After reviewing the AIS track sites there were no large ships (transmitting AIS) close to the Coronados. Before the SPOT track was released it was easy to believe they were run down and shreaded.

I'm sure Mr. Lamb wasn't thinking at the time that they were traveling at over 6 knots, after all there was practicly NO wind that night. And who thinks, without seeing the track data, that they would have run into the North Coronado Cliffs. He (Mr. Lamb, the debris field witness) might have a diffeent opinion after seeing the SPOT data.

Did Mr. Lamb say he saw a boat "too close" to NC? Never went back to investigate or put 2 and 2 together?

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Keep in mind that the Spot device is waterproof, so it is conceivable that it was attached to a piece of flotsam that ended up near Coronado island. This seems way more likely that a freighter hit them.

 

not at the rate it was moving down the track

 

I called and was told the tracker is good to within 27' of location

 

 

NOW as it's waterproof M / L why did it not keep pinging ??

 

how deep is it W/P to ??

 

if mounted to a chunk that went down @ the face of the island could it still be sending a signal 100' below the surface ??

 

 

Spot trackers are WP up to 30 minutes in a depth of 1 meter (IPX7). They also float. And it's possible that the Aegean Spot floated on debris, if not on a body, perhaps damaged, for several minutes before it stopped tracking at 0130 (presumably after hitting the Coronado rocks).

There are distances between the tracker readings. Most people set the tracker up under the dodger where it can see satellites.

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While it's still to early to really know for sure the whole story, my speculation is like this:

 

Both leading PC-based navigation solutions will fail to show even large hard spots when zoomed out. The GPS was probably navigating to a waypoint set at the finish. When the wind died and the motor went on, the auto pilot was set to drive to the active GPS waypoint - it's likely just one button push. No one looked to see what was along that course line - even if they did, they'd likely have seen nothing.

 

With the motor on, one or more of the off-watch crew sacked out in the V-berth just to get away from the racket. The rest, elsewhere in the cabin.

 

The on-deck watch never noticed the black-on-black sillouette of the island. If you're not looking for such, on a dark night, it can be really, really hard to find unlit things against the horizon. With lots of boats around, it's easy to look at things that are easy to see and miss the things that are so hard. Either that, or the combination of early morning hours, fatigue and the droning of the motor just lulled them to sleep.

 

The boat hit the rocks, that much seems apparent based on the limited data available. The crew in the V-berth suffered head injuries. In the swell, against the vertical cliffs, the boat just got ground to bits and as it disintegrated, some sunk and some slowly floated clear. Likewise for the crew. It's possible that the missing crew member is still tethered to the big chunk.

 

It would be interesting to know if there was any moon light at all around 0130 that morning as any ambient light would really increase the chances of seeing the rock. Similarly, it would be nice to know whether the on-board navigation was done via eyeball, paper, chart plotter or PC. Also, above, someone says the boat had radar and it's hard to understand why the radar wouldn't be running and checked regularly when the engine is running as power ought to be available in spades. Did the radar work? Did the crew know how to operate it? Was it so clear that someone might choose to not use the most valuable piece of night time navigation equipment ever invented?

 

Sigh ...

 

 

has everyone agreed that we are going to use 1:30am as the time it happened ??

 

as in 1:30 Eastern Time NOT Pacific Time

 

Makes a difference ( the tracker quit at 10:30 DAGO Time can we at least use that)

 

moon was a medium sliver that would sink as the evening went on

 

 

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While it's still to early to really know for sure the whole story, my speculation is like this:

 

Both leading PC-based navigation solutions will fail to show even large hard spots when zoomed out. The GPS was probably navigating to a waypoint set at the finish. When the wind died and the motor went on, the auto pilot was set to drive to the active GPS waypoint - it's likely just one button push. No one looked to see what was along that course line - even if they did, they'd likely have seen nothing.

 

With the motor on, one or more of the off-watch crew sacked out in the V-berth just to get away from the racket. The rest, elsewhere in the cabin.

 

The on-deck watch never noticed the black-on-black sillouette of the island. If you're not looking for such, on a dark night, it can be really, really hard to find unlit things against the horizon. With lots of boats around, it's easy to look at things that are easy to see and miss the things that are so hard. Either that, or the combination of early morning hours, fatigue and the droning of the motor just lulled them to sleep.

 

The boat hit the rocks, that much seems apparent based on the limited data available. The crew in the V-berth suffered head injuries. In the swell, against the vertical cliffs, the boat just got ground to bits and as it disintegrated, some sunk and some slowly floated clear. Likewise for the crew. It's possible that the missing crew member is still tethered to the big chunk.

 

It would be interesting to know if there was any moon light at all around 0130 that morning as any ambient light would really increase the chances of seeing the rock. Similarly, it would be nice to know whether the on-board navigation was done via eyeball, paper, chart plotter or PC. Also, above, someone says the boat had radar and it's hard to understand why the radar wouldn't be running and checked regularly when the engine is running as power ought to be available in spades. Did the radar work? Did the crew know how to operate it? Was it so clear that someone might choose to not use the most valuable piece of night time navigation equipment ever invented?

 

Sigh ...

 

 

has everyone agreed that we are going to use 1:30am as the time it happened ??

 

as in 1:30 Eastern Time NOT Pacific Time

 

Makes a difference ( the tracker quit at 10:30 DAGO Time can we at least use that)

 

moon was a medium sliver that would sink as the evening went on

Time shown on the Spot tracker last position was 6:36 PM. I'm presuming that's UTC.

 

post-1322-070213300 1335849689_thumb.png

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Just throwing this out there: In the ambient moonlight of that night, might the collision with the island look like a collision with an unlighted freighter to an eyewitness?

 

good idea to throw that possibility out dry.gif

 

or the short answer NO

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While it's still to early to really know for sure the whole story, my speculation is like this:

 

Both leading PC-based navigation solutions will fail to show even large hard spots when zoomed out. The GPS was probably navigating to a waypoint set at the finish. When the wind died and the motor went on, the auto pilot was set to drive to the active GPS waypoint - it's likely just one button push. No one looked to see what was along that course line - even if they did, they'd likely have seen nothing.

 

With the motor on, one or more of the off-watch crew sacked out in the V-berth just to get away from the racket. The rest, elsewhere in the cabin.

 

The on-deck watch never noticed the black-on-black sillouette of the island. If you're not looking for such, on a dark night, it can be really, really hard to find unlit things against the horizon. With lots of boats around, it's easy to look at things that are easy to see and miss the things that are so hard. Either that, or the combination of early morning hours, fatigue and the droning of the motor just lulled them to sleep.

 

The boat hit the rocks, that much seems apparent based on the limited data available. The crew in the V-berth suffered head injuries. In the swell, against the vertical cliffs, the boat just got ground to bits and as it disintegrated, some sunk and some slowly floated clear. Likewise for the crew. It's possible that the missing crew member is still tethered to the big chunk.

 

It would be interesting to know if there was any moon light at all around 0130 that morning as any ambient light would really increase the chances of seeing the rock. Similarly, it would be nice to know whether the on-board navigation was done via eyeball, paper, chart plotter or PC. Also, above, someone says the boat had radar and it's hard to understand why the radar wouldn't be running and checked regularly when the engine is running as power ought to be available in spades. Did the radar work? Did the crew know how to operate it? Was it so clear that someone might choose to not use the most valuable piece of night time navigation equipment ever invented?

 

Sigh ...

 

 

has everyone agreed that we are going to use 1:30am as the time it happened ??

 

as in 1:30 Eastern Time NOT Pacific Time

 

Makes a difference ( the tracker quit at 10:30 DAGO Time can we at least use that)

 

moon was a medium sliver that would sink as the evening went on

Time shown on the Spot tracker last position was 6:36 PM. I'm presuming that's UTC.

1:36 am PST

 

 

 

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Spot trackers are WP up to 30 minutes in a depth of 1 meter (IPX7). They also float. And it's possible that the Aegean Spot floated on debris, if not on a body, perhaps damaged, for several minutes before it stopped tracking at 0130 (presumably after hitting the Coronado rocks).

 

The boat must have hit the rock before the last transmission. Too many stars would have to align for it to be exactly 10 min +/- 5 sec since last transmission. Then before the next 10 min transmission time 0146 PDT, the device either sank or became disabled.

 

I thought the device had an auto tracking off function for 2 consecutive adjacent positions, but I cannot find Spot manual confirmation of that feature. I just remembered my device shutting down when at port/anchor.

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Just throwing this out there: In the ambient moonlight of that night, might the collision with the island look like a collision with an unlighted freighter to an eyewitness?

Depends what they were smoking.

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1:36 am PST

 

0136 PDT was last transmission. As stated before, looking at Spot website uses your computer clock to adjust from UTC.

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While it's still to early to really know for sure the whole story, my speculation is like this:

 

Both leading PC-based navigation solutions will fail to show even large hard spots when zoomed out. The GPS was probably navigating to a waypoint set at the finish. When the wind died and the motor went on, the auto pilot was set to drive to the active GPS waypoint - it's likely just one button push. No one looked to see what was along that course line - even if they did, they'd likely have seen nothing.

 

With the motor on, one or more of the off-watch crew sacked out in the V-berth just to get away from the racket. The rest, elsewhere in the cabin.

 

The on-deck watch never noticed the black-on-black sillouette of the island. If you're not looking for such, on a dark night, it can be really, really hard to find unlit things against the horizon. With lots of boats around, it's easy to look at things that are easy to see and miss the things that are so hard. Either that, or the combination of early morning hours, fatigue and the droning of the motor just lulled them to sleep.

 

The boat hit the rocks, that much seems apparent based on the limited data available. The crew in the V-berth suffered head injuries. In the swell, against the vertical cliffs, the boat just got ground to bits and as it disintegrated, some sunk and some slowly floated clear. Likewise for the crew. It's possible that the missing crew member is still tethered to the big chunk.

 

It would be interesting to know if there was any moon light at all around 0130 that morning as any ambient light would really increase the chances of seeing the rock. Similarly, it would be nice to know whether the on-board navigation was done via eyeball, paper, chart plotter or PC. Also, above, someone says the boat had radar and it's hard to understand why the radar wouldn't be running and checked regularly when the engine is running as power ought to be available in spades. Did the radar work? Did the crew know how to operate it? Was it so clear that someone might choose to not use the most valuable piece of night time navigation equipment ever invented?

 

Sigh ...

 

 

has everyone agreed that we are going to use 1:30am as the time it happened ??

 

as in 1:30 Eastern Time NOT Pacific Time

 

Makes a difference ( the tracker quit at 10:30 DAGO Time can we at least use that)

 

moon was a medium sliver that would sink as the evening went on

Time shown on the Spot tracker last position was 6:36 PM. I'm presuming that's UTC.

1:36 am PST

 

 

 

 

Aegean

ESN :0-2108668Type :Track ProgressLatitude :32.44532Longitude :-117.29999Time :Sat Apr 28 2012 01:36:36 GMT-0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)

AND Without quoting the report by the "Witness"

I Prey the last words heard over the radio by someone about to be run-over was NOT a Woman's Voice saying YES I SEE YOU !!!!!!!!!

I would hope people would make it clear who they are so as to not speak for a craft someone was trying to hail

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Spot trackers are WP up to 30 minutes in a depth of 1 meter (IPX7). They also float. And it's possible that the Aegean Spot floated on debris, if not on a body, perhaps damaged, for several minutes before it stopped tracking at 0130 (presumably after hitting the Coronado rocks).

 

The boat must have hit the rock before the last transmission. Too many stars would have to align for it to be exactly 10 min +/- 5 sec since last transmission. Then before the next 10 min transmission time 0146 PDT, the device either sank or became disabled.

 

I thought the device had an auto tracking off function for 2 consecutive adjacent positions, but I cannot find Spot manual confirmation of that feature. I just remembered my device shutting down when at port/anchor.

 

Yes, if you look at the track spots, the interval between the second to last and last transmission is slightly shorter than the previous intervals for the previous several hours. It appears they hit just before the last transmission was to occur.

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has everyone agreed that we are going to use 1:30am as the time it happened ??

 

as in 1:30 Eastern Time NOT Pacific Time

 

Makes a difference ( the tracker quit at 10:30 DAGO Time can we at least use that)

 

moon was a medium sliver that would sink as the evening went on

 

Moonset was aprox. 1AM local. It was almost a half disc. So, yeah, it was dark. Probably seemed even darker for the first hour or so after the moon set.

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post-15111-064525600 1335845936_thumb.jpgI used to take dive trips out to North Island, and have been around that North point at very close range in my 21' RIB many, many times. That is a very nasty point with the waves crashing on jagged rocks and cliffs. Crashing waves shoot 30'+ into the air on that north face. I've watched it in a 6-8' swell, and it could definately eat a sailboat pretty quickly. The 1st 100' as you go around the backside of the island is especially ragged, and takes direct impacts from a NW swell, then it gets a little better as you go south along the rocks.

 

If the guys were able to get off of the boat, they would have to really be waterman, swimming seaward away from the rocks. In the cold water, they might have tried to cling to the rocks, and that would explain the severe injuries. A lifeguard could swim his way out of that situation, but not most other people, and especially not wearing a wetsuit.

A crew below is only as safe as their least experienced, and most sleepy crewmember on watch alone.

 

I'm so sorry for the families.

 

that's the truth. well said. all of it

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Just throwing this out there: In the ambient moonlight of that night, might the collision with the island look like a collision with an unlighted freighter to an eyewitness?

 

Paging DoRag...DoRag to a white courtesy phone... (notice how I say his name only twice. Never three times - never.)

 

On a road-trip with buddies a few years ago, the plan was to each drive in 2 hr shifts while the others slept. Problem was that we were all jacked on adrenalin and couldn't sleep when we weren't driving. The adrenalin and chit-chat ran out minutes before it was my turn to drive and I was nodding off within 5 miles while everyone else was sawing logs. I tried to keep it together but finally pulled over after 15 minutes for fear that I would not wake up the next time my chin hit my chest. My gut is that it was a similar scenario for Aegean. Motor on, throttle up, Otto was set for the harbor entrance without seeing the Coronados. 2 crew sleeping on deck and tethered, one asleep below, and the on-watch captain, exhausted, dozed off to the hum of the diesel. The pic and description of that section of the island make the "grounding and pounding" theory feasible, and the debris field would follow the rip south. As it has been mentioned, a diver could confirm or refute this rather quickly.

 

In any case, my sincere condolences for the lost sailors and their families and friends.

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