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Snapper95

J/70 Impressions

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Now that the boats are hitting the water, I thought I'd start a new topic for members to leave their impressions.

Frankly, the others are too mired in pain and misery to be of much use---

 

Well, I just got off a brand spanking new J/70, was grateful to be invited along on the boat's very first sail after the boat first touched the water.

 

My impressions of the boat in the context of keelboat racing, this is after all, the J/boat forum. I've never owned a J/boat nor have I crewed on one.

 

The boat is very impressive when you walk up to it on the trailer. Some of that is the shiny new toy syndrome, but fit and finish is exemplary. It looks and feels solid as you move about alongside the dock. It feels more like a familiar keelboat than a dingy from my perspective. I felt comfortable on the boat immediately, despite having not sailed since the fall.

 

The boat pretty much exceeded all of my expectations, and mine were pretty high to begin with. I was hoping I'd be disappointed if you get my drift.

 

We had two J80 skipper's along, both said it was faster than an 80, felt better on the helm, and neither stopped grinning the whole time we were on the water. I thought it felt wonderful on the helm as well.

 

The boom doesn't seem high at all when you are on the water, but I am 6'3" and appreciated the room.

 

As far as controls, the main differences are that all the mast and forward controls are reachable from the cockpit. Only the main halyard requires leaving the cockpit while hoisting the main at the dock. The boom vang runs through a turning block to the cabin top where you can reach it without leaving the rail. It has a jib cunningham (sort of, it is a purchase arrangement to put tension on the jib halyard- it pulls up, not down) on the side of the mast, reachable from the cockpit.

 

Performance wise, we showed 5.9 to 6.4 knots upwind in 12 to 18 knots (wind according to the yacht club wx meters). It's got plenty of sail area upwind boys, so put your silly SA/D calculators aside. We didn't fly the chute as there wasn't enough time to rig it. Remember, the boat was delivered the previous day, and was put together during the day on which we sailed.

 

The winches were handy due to the conditions. We used them to grind in the jib sheets during acceleration. So they aren't superfluous after all.

 

The tiller forces are very light, did I mention that previously? Just a little weather helm, not much at all.

 

The stanchion height is perfect. Again, I am fairly tall and had no problem hiking or coming down off of the rail. That surprised me.

 

The controls and layout are such that the boat would be easy to single hand if desired. No big deal to sail with inexperienced crew. The reason I mention this is in the following paragraph.

 

The thing that comes to mind for me is the ability to get the boat to where the racing is with very little effort. The J80 guys I talked to today noted that while they have ample boats on their lake, less than half actually race. Those of you coming from traditional keelboats who aren't in a racing mecca or don't have access to overhead winches or substantial vehicles understand what being able to trailer launch and race with a crew of three means. Some think it is no big deal, others stay home because it is too much trouble for them.

 

Those are my first thoughts. Hopefully some of the other folks who have sailed the J/70 can lend some perspective and wider insight.

 

BTW, the dealer was very cool, very accommodating and as an experienced J80 racer/owner, mentioned he would likely keep this one for himself.

 

It was great to sail a boat where everything you looked at was new. Might get to do that, just one more time. wink.gif

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I was one of the J/80 skippers who was at the right place at the right time & tried out the new J/70 this weekend while at Fort Worth Boat Club. I actually helped Scott (the J/Boat dealer) set up some rigging and helped put it in the water hoping to get a ride. The set up was a little unconventional from what I was used to as most all of the blocks and rigging consist of spectra straps and carbon fiber blocks, instead of what I'm used to: stainless steel hardware. No question but that J Boats did what they could to reduce weight in the enture rig, not just in the carbon fiber mast & boom. The backstay tension had to be reworked before we headed out as it was too loose as initially set up. Our local professional rigger re-worked it to allow a good range of backstay adjustment & it was ready to go.

 

Once we got the boat in the water & I was already 1 hour late from meeting my wife at a friend's for a happy hour, I decided to go ahead & join the group in taking the boat out. Well ... glad I did. I was very impressed with the J/70. I really like the jib cunningham rigging as it really came in handy to be able to reach toward the mast & trim it with a simple tug of the cam cleat, instead of uncleating it & cranking it on the cabin winch like on my J/80. It also has a much larger cut roach in the main than the J/80.

 

I was expecting by its appearance to handle & feel closer to a Viper 640. But, I found it to handle very similar to a J/80 both in helm & trim. The cockpit controls felt just like a J/80, as did the load in trimming the main for the conditions we were sailing. The big difference is that although I was expecting to see 5.7 & 5.8 kt speeds on the Velocitek, we were seeing 5.9's to 6.1's. I found the rudder helm to be very neutral & trimmed up & balanced very nicely. It had the feel of a bigger boat stability-wise, although had a dinghy feel in the response. A good example was that after trimming the boat to a neutral helm, I could get quicker and more dramatic steering responses by subtle fore/aft, and low/high body positions --- more than I typically get on my J/80.

 

How the new J/70 class members may decide to allow some tweaking & still be one-design legal will have to be seen, but I expect the class will want to allow a solid boom vang (like allowed in a J/80) just to speed up boat set up for road warriors. Out of the box, the J/70 does have a complicated boom vang set up, although when we studied it after taking it out thought that much of it might be left in place even for travelling. And, as Jay mentions, we did not throw up the asymetrical because we were pressed for time. One other possible issue is that it has the usual starboard-side, cabin mounted camcleat for the tack line - a set up found among us J/80 racers to be too disasterous in breezy conditions. Most all of us J/80 racers have opted for, & the J/80 Class has permitted to, substitution of a side-mounted rope clutch substitute to allow the tack line to be blown under load without fingers being near a cam cleat.

 

But even over its "roadster" J/80 feel, I found the two potentially great features of a J/70 are: easier towing & a 2 person crew instead of 3!

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Hey Guys, thanks for the good information!

 

What were the sea conditions? Just curious how it handles a steep chop upwind, enough power?

 

Did either of you notice the tacking angles upwind? Especially compared to a J80.

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Hey Jerry - We had some white-capping, but because it was an inland lake wasn't the kind of chop we'd get on the coast. Still, it felt like it could power through waves when we put everybody on the rail (we had 4 guys on board) and went bow down. Our knot meter was a Velocitek ProStart so we were measuring actual speed over ground (GPS), not just relative hull speed over water (paddle wheel). And, we were getting impressive #s. I did not measure specific tacking angles.

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I'd put it the other way around: if putting the words "just" and "actual" somewhere, it would be just measuring speed over land rather than actual speed through the water.

 

Not that the difference is gigantic if there is very little current, but there's no way that speed over ground is more meaningful or better than speed through the water.

 

But as the difference between your expectation and your observation was only about 0.2 knots, subtle difference could be part of how small a difference you were measuring.

 

Thanks for the report!

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Hey Jerry - We had some white-capping, but because it was an inland lake wasn't the kind of chop we'd get on the coast. Still, it felt like it could power through waves when we put everybody on the rail (we had 4 guys on board) and went bow down. Our knot meter was a Velocitek ProStart so we were measuring actual speed over ground (GPS), not just relative hull speed over water (paddle wheel). And, we were getting impressive #s. I did not measure specific tacking angles.

 

Thanks for the good info!

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While its refreshing to read reviews of people who have actually sailed this new J model has anyone matched race or simply sailed against a similar type boat or any boat for a real life sample comparison?

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I'd put it the other way around: if putting the words "just" and "actual" somewhere, it would be just measuring speed over land rather than actual speed through the water.

 

Not that the difference is gigantic if there is very little current, but there's no way that speed over ground is more meaningful or better than speed through the water.

 

But as the difference between your expectation and your observation was only about 0.2 knots, subtle difference could be part of how small a difference you were measuring.

 

Thanks for the report!

Not a whole lot of current to worry about in Fort Worth.

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Ah, I had missed that this was in a lake and was visualizing the Gulf. A result of personally not being on a lake in a while and letting personal experience color the visualization, and not being familiar with Texas at all (I'd actually thought Fort Worth was on the Gulf, though looking at a map now obviously it is not. Duh.) But the post surely does plainly say lake. Sorry about that.

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There is something to be said for a boat this size too, for anyone coming from a larger keelboat. So nice dealing with light spars, smaller lines, less complexity. It is all I could think about when rigging and flying the chute on my lead sled yesterday. From my perspective, the J70 is faster and "funner", while being far easier if that makes sense.

 

I think all sportboat proponents have figured that out! We just have to keep promoting that idea to other sailors.

 

Cheers,

 

jason

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How were the buttocks? Firm? Powerful? Both?

 

Not going there friend The value is that we now have some time on the boat itself to generate some thoughts, not waste time with snarky comments about marketing. See the other thread for that.

 

Any specific questions about sailing the thing you might have?

Well you're no fun:

 

1) How smooth was the keel hoist mechanism?

2) Does it roll tack well or is it too heavy for that?

3) Please lend some detail to both the color and volume of smoky foam created by the afterburners. Potential smoke screen to befuddle competitors in mixed fleet racing?

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JMD,

You've got it backwards. The engines smoke when not in afterburner. The Phantom was one of the worst, but the Tomcat and even the Hornet will to some degree. Going to 'burner makes the smoke go away....

Crash

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My Tomcat time (1000 hrs) was mostly in A's, though some time in B's. Maybe we didn't have our old A motors tuned as well on the east coast, but we usually went to zone 1 to make sure we weren't smoking, even if we had enough smack on the jet not ot need it....

 

Thanks for your update. Hope to put my deposit down at the Annapolis show this fall for what I'd guess would be a mid to late 2013 delivery...

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JMD,

You've got it backwards. The engines smoke when not in afterburner. The Phantom was one of the worst, but the Tomcat and even the Hornet will to some degree. Going to 'burner makes the smoke go away....

Crash

 

 

You are right about the Phantom, not so much the F14. We never felt compelled to go to min burner to hide what little smoke it put out. The throttles were used to produce the energy we wanted, not so much to hide the smoke signature. The friggin' airplane was so big you didn't need a smoke trail to see it in the first place. I ended up with over 1600 hours in the Tomcat- being able to hose missiles at your enemies before their radar could detect you sort of mitigated any smoke issue anyway.. wink.gif

 

The keel mechanism was reported (I didn't wind it myself) smooth and well designed. You can use a drill motor on it to expedite the retraction. The fellow operating the winch used one finger against the crank to twirl it rapidly during extension. Looked buttery smooth to me on the way down. No hangups that I could see.

 

Too much wind to evaluate a roll tack where it matters most, but as you would expect, weight shift is weight shift. The high boom ought to help crew, and the boat itself is narrow enough, to manage the weight shift and get across without much effort.

 

 

Again, my perspective is from an 8.5 foot wide keelboat. This thing requires much less effort across the spectrum- and yes, while the whole sport boat thing isn't new to me, a boat this size that still feels solid and is quick to accelerate upwind is...

 

 

We used the portable drill on the boat at CRW. Pretty nifty idea, and fast! The boat does roll tack very easy.

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My Tomcat time (1000 hrs) was mostly in A's, though some time in B's. Maybe we didn't have our old A motors tuned as well on the east coast, but we usually went to zone 1 to make sure we weren't smoking, even if we had enough smack on the jet not ot need it....

 

Thanks for your update. Hope to put my deposit down at the Annapolis show this fall for what I'd guess would be a mid to late 2013 delivery...

 

Sounds about right.

 

Are you residing in the Annapolis area now? I'm going to try to make the show this year as well. Still have an old friend teaching at the Academy in the Aero Department. We like to get together and tell lies...

 

VF84 here- All F14A time. All of the jets I flew are now retired and in museums. Pretty sad, eh?

 

Norfolk right now...lived in Annapolis 02-04 while my wife was an instructor in the Weps/System Engineering Dept. Have been down here in Norfolk for the last 3 years. She's retired now too. I was a VF-32 and FITWING One guy in the early-mid 90s...

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Keeping it off-topic here, I hope the VT Air National Guard gets picked for a batch of F-35s to replace their F-16 fleet.

 

Back on topic, our local C&C + J/Boats dealer is bringing in a J/70 to sell (and a C&C 101 which I also hope to see). While I am not in the market for the J/70, I certainly know some sailors to whom I will recommend it. Up here, getting a mixed sportboat PHRF class is an easier target than hoping for enough for OD. We've got a Viper, a Melges 20, an Open 5.70 (not racing yet), and a J/80 so far, and someone will buy that J/70.

 

Cheers,

 

jason

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Norfolk right now...lived in Annapolis 02-04 while my wife was an instructor in the Weps/System Engineering Dept. Have been down here in Norfolk for the last 3 years. She's retired now too. I was a VF-32 and FITWING One guy in the early-mid 90s...

 

Figures. I'm older, three Nimtiz cruises in the mid to late eighties. Loved Virginia Beach. What's the racing scene like there now? I had no time and no experience to sail while stationed there. A handful of Naval Academy Grads rented a boat out of Rosie Roads and took me along for a snorkeling trip to Vieques Island. That's when I realized the magic, and started asking questions about sailing. You know what happens next…

 

How much did you sail while living in Annapolis? Navy boats or on the civilian side?

 

I'm sure we've prowled a lot of the same airspace. Other than that, I'm not talking. Not sure the statue of limitations has run out in Virginia (or across Southern Europe, North Africa and the rest of the Med!

 

 

 

 

 

Mid to late 80s was my SWO years on Chuckie V out of Alameda. 2 long Westpacs. I was a big boat guy at Boat School, and bought my first boat (J-24) as a Lt when I got to Flight School in '87 and raced it PHRF out of Pensacola Yacht Club. When we got up to Oceana in 89, we sold the J-24 and got a Santana 30/30 that we racedPHRF here on the Southern Bay. Got involuntarily transitioned at the first fighter Dept Head screen to E-2's which I turned down, then "volunteered" to fly EP-3s in Spain when the detailer explained my choice was down to what color flight deck jersey I wanted:blink: . Sold the Santana and went to Spain for 3 years. Came back to Air Command and Staff College in Montgomery, then to JFCOM as the NRO LNO for my last 4 years. Got divorced, and then started dating a gal who owned a Bene First 30E. Got her into the PHRF scene here in Hampton Roads. She was also a Boat School grad on the Truman as Asst Air Ops at the time. She got orders to Annap and I retired in June and moved up there with her. We got married in Mar 03, and then bought a new J/109. Raced that in Annapolis and down in Hampton Roads (my kids from first marriage still lived in Va Bch so we were down there every other weekend.) What a great boat that was. Sold it in 2007 just before the economy went south. Wife wanted a PhD and wanted to get pregnant which required some outside medical assistance. So the 109 had to go.:( . In 2009 as we were getting ready to leave Pax and come back down here (She was now an AEDO) for her last set of orders, we picked up a used S2 9.1 that was about to be donated (had really wet decks). Raced that down here for 1/2 year, when the deck split at the partners, and then cracked open on the foredeck with the first freeze of the winter. So spent the next 14 months rebuilding the partners, recoring the cabin top and foredeck. Back to racing as of last June...

 

BAck on topic somewhat, I'm tired of having to run a crew list of 20+ folks to try and nail down 6 to 8 to go racing each weekend. The appeal of the J/70 is that I can easily crew it with my kids and one or 2 other folks who are regulars that always show up. I'm likely to race it mostly PHRF down here, and do the occasional OD thing (and get creamed 'cause I'm not really that good, even at the local level)...

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I'm tired of having to run a crew list of 20+ folks to try and nail down 6 to 8 to go racing each weekend.

 

 

amen hypersaty. that is the main reason i really like this boat, the viper, and all these other new little boats. they look fast and fun and only take a few phone calls to fill up.

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I'm tired of having to run a crew list of 20+ folks to try and nail down 6 to 8 to go racing each weekend.

 

 

amen hypersaty. that is the main reason i really like this boat, the viper, and all these other new little boats. they look fast and fun and only take a few phone calls to fill up.

 

Blownout, we rafted J/24s with you at some NOOD event in Marblehead in 2007 or so. We were there with a J/24-pack of Magic Hat growlers. Interestingly, this was the first time I had seen the Vipers in action. They were having a championship and I was so jealous in the light wind where they were moving and we were just baking in the sun. It was a fun regatta with the J/24 and a picture of my sportboat future.

 

Cheers,

 

jason

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At last! Some calm amongst the madness. The guys on the other J/70 forum are weird.......... So angry!

First post and you are already judging us. You will fit right in. Now fuck off noob.

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1339213116[/url]' post='3744206']
1339191935[/url]' post='3743908']

At last! Some calm amongst the madness. The guys on the other J/70 forum are weird.......... So angry!

First post and you are already judging us. You will fit right in. Now fuck off noob.

 

Time to go and play in your bedroom Varan, the grown ups are trying to talk

Off you go now.

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1339213116[/url]' post='3744206']
1339191935[/url]' post='3743908']

At last! Some calm amongst the madness. The guys on the other J/70 forum are weird.......... So angry!

First post and you are already judging us. You will fit right in. Now fuck off noob.

 

Time to go and play in your bedroom Varan, the grown ups are trying to talk

Off you go now.

But where else can you give someone new such a warm, genuine welcome? I looked forward to this for years and now you don't even want to play. Geez, what would you have done if we asked for pictures?

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Personally, I'm hoping to find out what the first impressions are from my US friends

We don't yet have any in the UK.

I have a deposit down so there's a vested interest.......

I have some questions but they can wait until tomorrow - it's late here

Hope you're all having a good weekend!

 

J

 

 

 

 

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Is it possible to get into Cuddy cabin with keel hoisted ?

 

I was told the keel blocks the companionway

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Is it possible to get into Cuddy cabin with keel hoisted ?

 

I was told the keel blocks the companionway

 

It does retract straight up in front of the companionway. But you can still get into the cuddy cabin easily enough.

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Here is a picture of companionway.

 

thats a good pic. The companionway hatch is still in place in this pic. It rotates up and then slides off it's hinges and is completely removable. The broker that received the boat is north of 70 years of age and over 6' tall. He was able to remove the hatch and climb down into the boat to inventory it when he received it from the shipper. I did the same thing the next day.

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Here is a picture of companionway.

 

 

Is that a knob for a kelp cutter at the leading edge?

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Here is a picture of companionway.

 

 

Is that a knob for a kelp cutter at the leading edge?

 

 

Yes

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I'm tired of having to run a crew list of 20+ folks to try and nail down 6 to 8 to go racing each weekend.

 

 

amen hypersaty. that is the main reason i really like this boat, the viper, and all these other new little boats. they look fast and fun and only take a few phone calls to fill up.

 

Blownout, we rafted J/24s with you at some NOOD event in Marblehead in 2007 or so. We were there with a J/24-pack of Magic Hat growlers. Interestingly, this was the first time I had seen the Vipers in action. They were having a championship and I was so jealous in the light wind where they were moving and we were just baking in the sun. It was a fun regatta with the J/24 and a picture of my sportboat future.

 

Cheers,

 

jason

 

you were on beauty with bill and vtj24 right? you still racing with them? nice gang.

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Here is a picture of companionway.

 

 

Is that a knob for a kelp cutter at the leading edge?

 

 

Yes

 

Thank god. It was listed on the spec sheet, but it hasn't been discussed too much. It's a make or break for a west coast, or at least SoCal boat.

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Here is a picture of companionway.

 

thats a good pic. The companionway hatch is still in place in this pic. It rotates up and then slides off it's hinges and is completely removable. The broker that received the boat is north of 70 years of age and over 6' tall. He was able to remove the hatch and climb down into the boat to inventory it when he received it from the shipper. I did the same thing the next day.

 

Sounds so easy -

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Hey,

 

Got to sail the boat twice yesterday in typical conditions for my area. First session was 12 with gusts to 15-17 knots (on the historical wx almanac thingy, so it is approximate to be sure), second was 8 to 10 or so. Very shifty during both sessions.

 

My first post in this thread was after a frenetic, brief sail with no spinnaker time. This one was a calm, examination of the boat's overall handling and a more acute look at a few speeds. Aboard were a variety of sailors, from a college team sailor (also a Viper skipper) to a seventy plus year old gentleman who made it all look rather easy. Love guys like that, they have an economy of motion and grace that comes from years of experience.

 

A few quick hits to answer some questions that have come up previously. The cabin is easily accessed with the keel up. I did it to see for myself. You do need to remove the hatch, however. Hatch cover and companionway board stow behind a cutout in the seats.

 

I didn't notice that the vang tail is accessible on both sides of the cabin top before. For some reason, I though the line on the starboard side was for something else. So crew (or even the skipper) can reach the vang from either side of the cockpit while hiking.

 

Jib sheets are continuous. Missed that last time too. Obviously the traveler line is as well.

 

 

I'll post more later, but since I expressed concern about launching, (with me out there measuring hull heights while the boat was on the trailer, comparing it to my local ramp depths), the Jboat dealer said, "we'll then, let's run it down the ramp today." Couldn't have been easier. Basically he stopped a few feet from the water, disconnected the trailer bow strap, backed up until the vehicle's wheels were at the water's edge, touched the brakes and the boat kept going. It simply drifted straight as an arrow aft while the aforementioned gentlemen tended a bowline from afar. The ramp looked fairly typical to me, and is used at the club to launch powerboats of all shapes and sizes. Nothing dramatic about it's descent angle.

 

Nothing to it. The bow of the boat looks like it is barely touching the water, so all you need to do is basically get it wet up front. No draft to speak of. Silly of me to have been concerned, all things considered.

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First post on SA, and first sail today on Hull #7 on Lake Travis, Texas. It was blowing between 8 and 16.

 

First of all, the layout is very clean and simple. J-boats is still working on some of the lines, like the backstay's proper length, etc. I like the vang being led to both sides of the cabin top. The mast is bendy so cranking on the vang, like a Laser, really helps flatten out the lower part of the rig. With a such a dramatic roach on the main (Quantum), the mainsheet was critical in the puffs and I imagine a lot of vang-sheeting will be the norm. The jib sheet was easy enough but I think I would like cleats on the opposite side of the boat. I forgot my gloves and my hands paid the price -- the lines all small and light, but they hurt! The winches, as it has been said before, are pointless I think. The boat starts planing so easily that the load on the chute doesn't seem to build up too much and the winches just get in the way of moving aft as the boat accelerates.

 

Speaking of acceleration -- really impressive. As opposed to a J/80, the J/70 seems to pop up smoothly and without a perceptible transition to full-on planing. It seems to slice through the chop better than a J/80 -- a very steady ride. I was out with my father (71 years old) and the two of us had no problem zipping down the lake. Some people have commented that it feels very similar to the J/80, but I felt that it was way more responsive and more like a dingy. The boom doesn't seem that high on the boat and there is no question it made tacking/jibing easy as well. I'm pretty sure this was the first time my dad had ever sailed on a boat with an asymmetrical chute and after two jibes he had it down.

 

Overall I'm really impressed and the J/70 seems to have a lot going for it. We currently own a J/29, which has been a great boat to sail together with my dad. Finding another 5 or 6 people, however, is a pain. The idea of tracking down one (or two) other people to go racing seems a lot easier. Our club has about 10 J/80's and that's another option for us. I like the idea, however, of hooking a J/70 up to my minivan to go to a regatta.

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Wife and I had the opportunity to sail hull 1 with StuJ this past Tuesday in Newport. What a great boat. We've already bought ours, hull 26, delivery late July in Annapolis, so this was less a test-drive and more a familiarization ride, but still we are very excited about the boat. Winds were pretty light but there were times when Stu and my wife were legs out on the rail; we were happy to see plenty of power given Annapolis' light-air leanings. With spinnaker up we pushed into the 9s sometimes in single-digit windspeeds, tight reach obviously but still fun. Boat is easily handled by three, two would be fine as well, four almost overkill. We're primarily racers but can see giving this lots of use for daysails and weeknight racing that is too much of a pain with our 105. And it's clearly the perfect travel boat, again important to us given we've sworn off moving the 105 around the country any more. Dealer just sent us option list and, while you really need none, the list contains everything you could otherwise want, including lots of canvas options (covers, etc.). But except perhaps for a windex and tiller extension, the boat is good to go right out of the box. All in all, happy to be an early adopter and can't wait for delivery in a few weeks.

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And it's clearly the perfect travel boat, again important to us given we've sworn off moving the 105 around the country any more. Dealer just sent us option list and, while you really need none, the list contains everything you could otherwise want, including lots of canvas options (covers, etc.). But except perhaps for a windex and tiller extension, the boat is good to go right out of the box. All in all, happy to be an early adopter and can't wait for delivery in a few weeks.

 

My station wagon has a 3300 pound tow rating. Does any of the info you've received so far indicate what the full boat & trailer & sails package weighs?

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And it's clearly the perfect travel boat, again important to us given we've sworn off moving the 105 around the country any more. Dealer just sent us option list and, while you really need none, the list contains everything you could otherwise want, including lots of canvas options (covers, etc.). But except perhaps for a windex and tiller extension, the boat is good to go right out of the box. All in all, happy to be an early adopter and can't wait for delivery in a few weeks.

 

My station wagon has a 3300 pound tow rating. Does any of the info you've received so far indicate what the full boat & trailer & sails package weighs?

 

Volvo XC-70?

 

 

My semi educated wild assed guess is I'd think so. Listed disp is ~ 1760, so boat with sails and motor should be right around 2000lbs, maybe a hair more. Not sure exactly how much the trailer weighs, but would guess 700. So that leaves you some margin. But not alot. 2 guys in the car and rest of your gear would put you close to 3300 lbs.

 

 

So yes, can tow the boat, but proabably can't load up all 4 guys, all their gear for say Key West Race Week, and the boat too. For that you need closer to 5k total towing capacity I'd guess.

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And it's clearly the perfect travel boat, again important to us given we've sworn off moving the 105 around the country any more. Dealer just sent us option list and, while you really need none, the list contains everything you could otherwise want, including lots of canvas options (covers, etc.). But except perhaps for a windex and tiller extension, the boat is good to go right out of the box. All in all, happy to be an early adopter and can't wait for delivery in a few weeks.

 

My station wagon has a 3300 pound tow rating. Does any of the info you've received so far indicate what the full boat & trailer & sails package weighs?

Yes, you should be fine. According to the Triad trailer info sheet, the trailer is 855 lbs and its carrying capacity is 2135, for a total "Gross Vehicle Weight" rating of 2990 lbs. I would expect the 2135 carrying capacity is more than needed for a fully-loaded 70 with gear and sails. Sails don't weigh much and even the engine we are getting (Honda 2 hp) is only 30 pounds, plus some fuel weight. Not certain what else you would have in the boat, other than safety gear and perhaps canvas covers.

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The boat will also be below the roofline of the vehicle with less aero drag than a traditional keelboat riding up in the free airflow.

I think that will depend a lot on the vehicle. 15 passenger van, maybe. Station wagon or even most small trucks and SUVs...probably not. The J/70 I've seen on a trailer requires a ladder to get into the boat. The lifting keel may be a bonus, but the boat is still a lot of drag and will require a larger than average vehicle to move it around to regattas.

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Here you go. The hull should be below the roofline of most SUV's and put the boat in disturbed airflow. It will be interesting to see if towing the J/70 requires less fuel than the similar J/22 due to the aero differences.

 

You are right, if you are fat or older, you may have trouble hopping up into the stern while the boat is on the trailer. A step ladder, or using a stout cooler is about all you need.

 

post-55927-031886900 1341855863_thumb.jpg

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Here you go. The hull should be below the roofline of most SUV's and put the boat in disturbed airflow. It will be interesting to see if towing the J/70 requires less fuel than the similar J/22 due to the aero differences.

 

You are right, if you are fat or older, you may have trouble hopping up into the stern while the boat is on the trailer. A step ladder, or using a stout cooler is about all you need.

 

post-55927-031886900 1341855863_thumb.jpg

 

 

The boom looks way too short in that photo! That thing will be slow with that short boom! Narecet, get your protractor out!

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The boom looks way too short in that photo! That thing will be slow with that short boom! Narecet, get your protractor out!

 

Don't know about the boom, but he's gonna have trouble towing that thing under bridges on I-35 back to Austin!

 

The boom seems fine when underway and heeled. The boat seems to like a little more heel than what I'm used to…but that is a uniformed perception from just a few hours on the water with it.

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In the photo, the boom is not on centerline.

 

No, it's just another instance of the Johnstones engaging in deceptive hyperbole. The boom has to be short so the afterburners will fit. :D

 

 

Ain't it funny how principal detractor naceret dropped off once real boats got on the water and it turns out despite everything people like them.

 

If I wasn't looking at the equivalent of buying a brand new Chevy Malibu every year for the next 8 years to fund kid's educations, I'd so be in the market for one.

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That is cutting it a bit tight with the towing capacity

 

Ultimate 20 at 1280 LBS displacement would provide a good margin of safety.

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That is cutting it a bit tight with the towing capacity

 

Ultimate 20 at 1280 LBS displacement would provide a good margin of safety.

 

That's lame and a bit desperate too! smile.gif

 

 

He's just sniping again. He won't actually have a discussion about why he feels this way. He'll pop up again in a week or so to take another shot before hiding somemore.;)

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As nice as the U20 might be, the J70 will sell in big numbers over the next few years.

The momentum is already there and down the road a used J70 will be an easy sell.

That's an important consideration.

 

Of course, I could be wrong.

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That is cutting it a bit tight with the towing capacity

 

Ultimate 20 at 1280 LBS displacement would provide a good margin of safety.

 

U20Guy sockpuppet?

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Hotair,

 

The Ultimate 20 has an established class organization. There are 250 boats sailing. It is a solid boat with low risk for newcomers.

 

The J/70 may develop into a big OD fleet or it may be just another flash in the pan.

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Hotair,

 

The Ultimate 20 has an established class organization. There are 250 boats sailing. It is a solid boat with low risk for newcomers.

 

The J/70 may develop into a big OD fleet or it may be just another flash in the pan.

speaking of u-20, where is the web site, who is class pres, where are the active fleets on the west coast?

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Saw a J70 blasting along in 15 kts last night (2 up). They whooped everybody on the course including Soverel 33,J80,U20 etc Boat looked really sweet.

 

Sail safe!

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Only 250 boats in all those years? That would give me pause about buying one. You might be staggered by the number of J/70's already sold. If it's a flash in the pan, it's a pretty big flash.

The salient point however, is that when you keep showing up in every thread pitching the U20 (which I like btw), you make the class look desperate.

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The J70 hits a design sweet spot.

The more I see of it, the more I like it.

It will likely sell 100 per year, year after year.

250 in 2.5 years - 500 in 5 years.

If they make another set of tooling, they could build 4 a week.

Of course, if the Mayans are right, it won't matter.

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nothing wrong with u-20's, but I think j-70 will surpass 250 boats in 2-3 years. and by the way, sail flatter and probably one more crew and you may move up in that fleet!

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I think the U20 is a cool boat, remember seeing them for the first time at St. Pete NOOD many years ago and thought it was a great idea. But, also many years ago, in 1993, I made the mistake of buying a Tripp 26 rather than a Melges 24 or J/80 (all of them came out at about the same time). I thought the Tripp was a better design than the others and more suited to what I wanted to do -- but it turned out it was also built like crap (thank you Barry Carroll) and sold by fly-by-nighters. So there I was stuck in orphan-boat PHRF-land while the 24s and, eventually, the 80s turned into worldwide phenomenons.

 

Now I'm on my second J/105 and have been in the class since 1997. Maybe not the most exciting boat in the world but you can't beat the size and global reach of the fleets, the cameraderie and tight competition and the build quality and resale value.

 

Which is what I'm looking for in the 70 as well. Great but not radical design, good build quality that will hold its value, pretty much guaranteed one-design fleets all around the country in regattas big and small and lots of fun travel opportunities throughout the year. I care about Annapolis, Newport, Charleston and Florida, and even before I've bought the 70 I know I'll be racing it in all of those destinations in the next year. I don't know of any other small boat, new or old, that offers the same.

 

The U20 has had many years to establish its fleets, yet there's not one in Annapolis even though from what I've read it would be a great boat for the bay. So, unfortunately, it's old news to me and people like me. Our sport can't afford to lose any more participation, so I wish the U20 fleet well but am putting my money on the 70.

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In the photo, the boom is not on centerline.

 

No, it's just another instance of the Johnstones engaging in deceptive hyperbole. The boom has to be short so the afterburners will fit. :D

 

 

Ain't it funny how principal detractor naceret dropped off once real boats got on the water and it turns out despite everything people like them.

No, what's funny is your obsession with me causing you to post about me out of absolutely nowhere, and that of another idiot or two here, such as obviously Jagtek.

 

At this point there's nothing new of any interest being put out about the boat beyond what has already been extensively discussed. The next potentially interesting thing will be the J/70 sailing with sport boats to a significant enough extent where we see what the truth is. Right now we are hearing only impressions that really mean nothing. So why should I be posting in this thread, other than if people like you directly talk about me? Not that I will necessarily reply every time when you do. Besides this the OP requested that the posts be reports of sailing the boat. I would have had to go well out of my way to do that and there would have been no point at this time.

 

As a guess what I previously posted, that the boat would likely prove about as fast overall in PHRF as a J/80 rather than being the actually-fast boat the drinkers were expecting, seems to have proven about correct.

 

And if you had reading comprehension, you would understand that I was not a detractor of the boat: I said that a modernized J/22, which is what I consider the boat to be, was a great idea for meeting what much of the market wants, and a better idea than what I originally expected (a lighter, trailerable slightly shorter J/80.) The issue was unclear claims about it and unclear info and contradictory info being put out, and fanboys that could not stand anyone pointing that out... made their little butts all hurt, apparently. Very sad. You'd think someone was talking about their wife or mommy. Ridiculous really. But that can come along with this sort of branding.

 

When the boat has been sailing with sport boats for a reasonable time so there is good info -- as opposed to the gush reports above -- people will have interesting and valuable posts. Right now, that's not the case. Personal opinion, yours obviously are different.

 

At least however now the sail area and final specifications have finally been officially released: http://www.sailingso...=134&Itemid=161 . The sail area came to what I originally expected and posted (difference of two square feet which is essentially no difference.) For all the gushing going on, somehow actually relevant facts like that folk like you didn't post. Again, I had to go provide it for the thread... you all were too busy gushing.

 

Anyway, have fun: if the boat suits you, excellent!

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Annapolis 105er explained the full picture beautifully. It's why debating theoretical numbers and comparing One Design boats between each other makes people look silly. One Design means something, so lay aside the personality disorders guerilla marketing and let's try to get back to sailing.

 

I'm committed to trailer sailing the J/70 and am beginning to work in ideas for mast stepping, quick rigging etc. since I saw how easy it is to ramp launch.

 

There is no question that the J/70 is fun enough for my application to sail.

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In the photo, the boom is not on centerline.

 

No, it's just another instance of the Johnstones engaging in deceptive hyperbole. The boom has to be short so the afterburners will fit. :D

 

 

Ain't it funny how principal detractor naceret dropped off once real boats got on the water and it turns out despite everything people like them.

No, what's funny is your obsession with me causing you to post about me out of absolutely nowhere, and that of another idiot or two here, such as obviously Jagtek.

 

At this point there's nothing new of any interest being put out about the boat beyond what has already been extensively discussed. The next potentially interesting thing will be the J/70 sailing with sport boats to a significant enough extent where we see what the truth is. Right now we are hearing only impressions that really mean nothing. So why should I be posting in this thread, other than if people like you directly talk about me? Not that I will necessarily reply every time when you do. Besides this the OP requested that the posts be reports of sailing the boat. I would have had to go well out of my way to do that and there would have been no point at this time.

 

As a guess what I previously posted, that the boat would likely prove about as fast overall in PHRF as a J/80 rather than being the actually-fast boat the drinkers were expecting, seems to have proven about correct.

 

And if you had reading comprehension, you would understand that I was not a detractor of the boat: I said that a modernized J/22, which is what I consider the boat to be, was a great idea for meeting what much of the market wants, and a better idea than what I originally expected (a lighter, trailerable slightly shorter J/80.) The issue was unclear claims about it and unclear info and contradictory info being put out, and fanboys that could not stand anyone pointing that out... made their little butts all hurt, apparently. Very sad. You'd think someone was talking about their wife or mommy. Ridiculous really. But that can come along with this sort of branding.

 

When the boat has been sailing with sport boats for a reasonable time so there is good info -- as opposed to the gush reports above -- people will have interesting and valuable posts. Right now, that's not the case. Personal opinion, yours obviously are different.

 

At least however now the sail area and final specifications have finally been officially released: http://www.sailingso...=134&Itemid=161 . The sail area came to what I originally expected and posted (difference of two square feet which is essentially no difference.) For all the gushing going on, somehow actually relevant facts like that folk like you didn't post. Again, I had to go provide it for the thread... you all were too busy gushing.

 

Anyway, have fun: if the boat suits you, excellent!

Watch the results of Whidbey Island Race Week starting Monday. The 70 is going up against some J80s, Rocket 22s, a Dart, a U20, a B25 and others.

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If someone were brave enough to really test the boat they could enter the Double Damned. Would love to see how the 70 would hold up in those conditions. In my opinion she'd hold up just fine.

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Jesus - a thread about J/70s hijacked by U20 zealots....it's like the Viper guys hijacking any thread about anything remotely close to sportboats. Guys - give it a fucking rest...it's a thread about J/70 impressions. Go away to your own U20 dark hole (what are there, two threads??) and STFU.

 

WWing

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Thank you, that should give some good information.

 

Narecet,

I'm interested in why you think this. I say that from a standpoint of largely agree with you that is a "updated/improved" J/22. So how "fast" it is compared to a bunch of other "sportboats" (J/80 included for ease of writing this, not to start that shitfight over yet again) is somewhat irrelevant isn't it? What matters most is whether or not its fun and responsive to sail and therefore builds to a health OD class. In the end if its 6 secs a mile faster or slower that a J/80, or that a rocket 22 can run away from it downwind really only matters to people who have to have the fastest 23 footer around (and to be that it'd need to be a canter/foiler/multi-hull etc)....which no one has really claimed the J/70 to be. Even the J/Boats PR machine hasn't said its the fastest 23 ft sport boat on the planet. Not to mention that being the fastest is typically short lived, and has never by itself, led to sales success.

Crash

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Tedious means too little or too much. The former you are bored, the latter you are hanging on trying not to wreck.

 

Either detracts from tactics of racing.

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Thank you, that should give some good information.

 

Narecet,

I'm interested in why you think this. I say that from a standpoint of largely agree with you that is a "updated/improved" J/22. So how "fast" it is compared to a bunch of other "sportboats" (J/80 included for ease of writing this, not to start that shitfight over yet again) is somewhat irrelevant isn't it? What matters most is whether or not its fun and responsive to sail and therefore builds to a health OD class. In the end if its 6 secs a mile faster or slower that a J/80, or that a rocket 22 can run away from it downwind really only matters to people who have to have the fastest 23 footer around (and to be that it'd need to be a canter/foiler/multi-hull etc)....which no one has really claimed the J/70 to be. Even the J/Boats PR machine hasn't said its the fastest 23 ft sport boat on the planet. Not to mention that being the fastest is typically short lived, and has never by itself, led to sales success.

Crash

I cannot speak for Narecet, but I'm interested in how the 70 stacks up against others, having sailed many of the others, but haven't had the opportunity to even see a 70 yet. Also, in our area PHRF is a fact of life. Even the Vipers and M24s are demoted to PHRF at many venues. The 80, while popular, rarely has a one design start. So I am interested to see how she does in PHRF as that is the likely playground for 70s in our area.

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Thank you, that should give some good information.

 

Narecet,

I'm interested in why you think this. I say that from a standpoint of largely agree with you that is a "updated/improved" J/22. So how "fast" it is compared to a bunch of other "sportboats" (J/80 included for ease of writing this, not to start that shitfight over yet again) is somewhat irrelevant isn't it? What matters most is whether or not its fun and responsive to sail and therefore builds to a health OD class. In the end if its 6 secs a mile faster or slower that a J/80, or that a rocket 22 can run away from it downwind really only matters to people who have to have the fastest 23 footer around (and to be that it'd need to be a canter/foiler/multi-hull etc)....which no one has really claimed the J/70 to be. Even the J/Boats PR machine hasn't said its the fastest 23 ft sport boat on the planet. Not to mention that being the fastest is typically short lived, and has never by itself, led to sales success.

Crash

I cannot speak for Narecet, but I'm interested in how the 70 stacks up against others, having sailed many of the others, but haven't had the opportunity to even see a 70 yet. Also, in our area PHRF is a fact of life. Even the Vipers and M24s are demoted to PHRF at many venues. The 80, while popular, rarely has a one design start. So I am interested to see how she does in PHRF as that is the likely playground for 70s in our area.

 

That's likely true of my playground too...but after 30 years of racing PHRF...again, how fast it is in absolute terms against any other boat is seems less important that what its rating is, and how "fair" or accurate that rating is. (I generally believe most are pretty fair...) You know, I can't ever remember buying a boat because it was 6 secs faster than some other boat. I bought all mine because I liked how they looked, and I liked how they sailed, and I liked how the interior was laid out, etc, etc. But actual speed vs another close competitor was never a metric for me...

 

But that's just me. Don't get me wrong, I'm interested to see how the J/70 fairs at WIRW. Its just not likely to influence my decision one way or the other...

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Thank you, that should give some good information.

 

Narecet,

I'm interested in why you think this. I say that from a standpoint of largely agree with you that is a "updated/improved" J/22. So how "fast" it is compared to a bunch of other "sportboats" (J/80 included for ease of writing this, not to start that shitfight over yet again) is somewhat irrelevant isn't it? What matters most is whether or not its fun and responsive to sail and therefore builds to a health OD class. In the end if its 6 secs a mile faster or slower that a J/80, or that a rocket 22 can run away from it downwind really only matters to people who have to have the fastest 23 footer around (and to be that it'd need to be a canter/foiler/multi-hull etc)....which no one has really claimed the J/70 to be. Even the J/Boats PR machine hasn't said its the fastest 23 ft sport boat on the planet. Not to mention that being the fastest is typically short lived, and has never by itself, led to sales success.

Crash

Well, "good information" is relative to one's interests.

 

For me the presentation of this boat and what various people have been saying -- both predictions beforehand, and reports as the boat came out -- has been a confusing mismash at best.

 

If my characterization of the boat as being basically a nicely done, extensive modernization of the J/22 is reasonably close, then I'd agree completely that how it does against sport boats is not so important and therefore what's seen in the race (so much as conditions may be the same between boats, if that's the case) is not really of much importance. Of more importance would be reports of the sailing experience.

 

On the other hand, I don't know that my characterization is necessarily right, and the boat is being touted at least by some as being a sport boat and fast. If conditions are suitable, we might get some factual idea of how the boat actually stacks up as a sport boat, or what "fast" is relative to. I suspect it's fast relative to say the J/22, very much so, but to most sport boats, not so much. But we'll see. Soon it will be a boat that we all know for sure where it fits in, from results.

 

That is all that I meant by that.

 

I was never thinking "fastest." Personally the question to me is whether it is about the same as say the J/80 or significantly -- but almost certainly it won't be drastically -- faster overall. The U20 is another good comparison, though it's hard to not have some advantage when having an additional 2.5 feet on the waterline for upwind. But again, relative to one's preferences rather than being an inherent truth.

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The J/70 I helped rig was gorgeous and well-crafted. I was bummed I couldn't take the offer to go for a sail (had to go back to work). I think it will appeal to many members at our club who might not go for the Viper. It has already converted one J/92s owner who does summers on Lake Champlain and winters on Lake Norman, and wanted an easier commute and fewer running expenses. I have a feeling some of our J/29 owners might get tempted once they see one racing.

 

I promise to post the photos I took as soon as possible. I think they would be useful for folks interested in some of the rigging and hardware details. I tried to get shots of each of the systems I could get to from above or outside.

 

Cheers from a friendly Viper owner,

 

jason

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It's not really a modernized J/22. Similar length and displacement, different animal in handling and performance.

 

You gents really need to stop this "paper comparison" and GO SAIL THE BOATS that you are interested in purchasing.

 

Otherwise, this is just speculation and mental, well, you know what I mean.

 

Grab a demo and go sail some boats.

Oh dude this is your problem. They aren't interested in purchasing anything...

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The J70 will plane in 12 to 14knts. The J80 can't do that. In displacement mode I'd say they are even.

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Thank you, that should give some good information.

 

Narecet,

I'm interested in why you think this. I say that from a standpoint of largely agree with you that is a "updated/improved" J/22. So how "fast" it is compared to a bunch of other "sportboats" (J/80 included for ease of writing this, not to start that shitfight over yet again) is somewhat irrelevant isn't it? What matters most is whether or not its fun and responsive to sail and therefore builds to a health OD class. In the end if its 6 secs a mile faster or slower that a J/80, or that a rocket 22 can run away from it downwind really only matters to people who have to have the fastest 23 footer around (and to be that it'd need to be a canter/foiler/multi-hull etc)....which no one has really claimed the J/70 to be. Even the J/Boats PR machine hasn't said its the fastest 23 ft sport boat on the planet. Not to mention that being the fastest is typically short lived, and has never by itself, led to sales success.

Crash

I cannot speak for Narecet, but I'm interested in how the 70 stacks up against others, having sailed many of the others, but haven't had the opportunity to even see a 70 yet. Also, in our area PHRF is a fact of life. Even the Vipers and M24s are demoted to PHRF at many venues. The 80, while popular, rarely has a one design start. So I am interested to see how she does in PHRF as that is the likely playground for 70s in our area.

 

That's likely true of my playground too...but after 30 years of racing PHRF...again, how fast it is in absolute terms against any other boat is seems less important that what its rating is, and how "fair" or accurate that rating is. (I generally believe most are pretty fair...) You know, I can't ever remember buying a boat because it was 6 secs faster than some other boat. I bought all mine because I liked how they looked, and I liked how they sailed, and I liked how the interior was laid out, etc, etc. But actual speed vs another close competitor was never a metric for me...

 

But that's just me. Don't get me wrong, I'm interested to see how the J/70 fairs at WIRW. Its just not likely to influence my decision one way or the other...

 

Totally agree. Some boats do have a sweet rating, and new ones usually take a hit. My old 80 started at 111 ('93) and ended around 126, so that needs to be considered when looking at the results. And btw, this is not a paper comparison, it's a week of head to head racing, just what I plan to do if I pull the trigger on one.

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Photos as promised! For the record again, I am a Viper owner who wants to grow sportboat racing in any boats that fit the sailors. My selfish desire is to have a mixed sportboat fleet at Lake Champlain Yacht Club. As far as I am concerned, J/70s are an important part of that plan! Here are some pics I took while helping to raise the mast on hull #16. Jeff Hill, the local J/boats and C&C dealer is in some of the photos, as is my father with a bit more white hair. Cheers!

 

post-12543-098862600 1342232466_thumb.jpgpost-12543-004616400 1342232468_thumb.jpgpost-12543-017841200 1342232469_thumb.jpg

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The J/70 racing up at WIRW is Hull #19 with Quantum sails, and was given a PHRF Rating of 117. It arrived in Seattle last Saturday, along with hulls #17, and #18. First launched on Sunday and has had a couple additional shakeout runs. No doubt it is faster than the J/80, but is it 12 seconds a mile faster well I guess we will all find that out next week.

 

 

Here are couple of videos of the boat

 

 

 

 

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Photos as promised! For the record again, I am a Viper owner who wants to grow sportboat racing in any boats that fit the sailors. My selfish desire is to have a mixed sportboat fleet at Lake Champlain Yacht Club. As far as I am concerned, J/70s are an important part of that plan! Here are some pics I took while helping to raise the mast on hull #16. Jeff Hill, the local J/boats and C&C dealer is in some of the photos, as is my father with a bit more white hair. Cheers!

 

post-12543-098862600 1342232466_thumb.jpg

post-12543-004616400 1342232468_thumb.jpg

post-12543-017841200 1342232469_thumb.jpg

That's one fugly looking "bulb", but I do like the tie downs for it. Thx for posting the photos. Hope to see my first one tomorrow, and hopefully snag a ride.

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post-12543-074002700 1342233588_thumb.jpgpost-12543-056606800 1342233589_thumb.jpgpost-12543-066173000 1342233603_thumb.jpg

No U-bolt on the stem? How hard is it to retrieve on the trailer? Also a more general question? The 70 and most other retractable sprit boats in the USA locate there sprits on the starboard side of the hull, yet most courses leave marks to port, so the kite usually is set and retrieved from the port side. This leaves the tack line in an uncomfortable position where it can snag in the furler, slip under the bow, etc. Why don't more new designs follow the 570's lead and exit the sprit from the port side of the hull?

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The J70 will plane in 12 to 14knts. The J80 can't do that. In displacement mode I'd say they are even.

 

How they perform relative to the 80 in soak mode is going to be more about sail design than hull design IMO. And my guess for 'when she'll plane' on W/L angles is a bit higher than yours; sure we popped her up sailing super hot in 10 knots on Lake Norman, but VMG angle in that stuff is going to be a lot deeper than we sailed. You pop up on the M24 in 13 knots, the J/80 in what; 16 or 17? So call it 14-15 for the J/70 for VMG planing.Could be a fucking stellar boat for one of the double D races.

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