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russell_2878

Ben Lexcens designs

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I saw this nice boat when I was in Melbourne last month, I was told that Mercedes is a Ben Lexcen design.

Mercedes 3 is a Hank Kaufman design. Magic boat, I had the pleasure of sailing on her in Sydney once when Big Bad John Gilliam owned her for a while. Current owner Martin Ryan has lavished attention on the old girl for well over 20 years now and she is in magnificent condition. She still races regularly with the Classic Yacht Association on Port Phillip. Back in the days when we used to race here under Channel Handicap (which later evolved into IRC) she was just about unbeatable.

post-449-0-38946700-1388697118_thumb.jpg

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I saw this nice boat when I was in Melbourne last month, I was told that Mercedes is a Ben Lexcen design.

Mercedes 3 is a Hank Kaufman design. Magic boat, I had the pleasure of sailing on her in Sydney once when Big Bad John Gilliam owned her for a while. Current owner Martin Ryan has lavished attention on the old girl for well over 20 years now and she is in magnificent condition. She still races regularly with the Classic Yacht Association on Port Phillip. Back in the days when we used to race here under Channel Handicap (which later evolved into IRC) she was just about unbeatable.

attachicon.gifClassic Yachts 29 3 2009. (31).jpg

Ooops, sorry, that should be Ted Kaufman design.

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was that the plug for the M & W 32 mould ?

No, the 32 was an earlier design. The 3/4 tonner was around 35 Ft loa iirc.

In case anyone's looking for a project there's a fairly derelict 32 sitting on the hard at Devine Marine on Blackwattle Bay. Ugly as and in no way fast IMHO...wouldn't be surprised if he took the lines of a 34 and just moved the stations a bit closer together. He had form in that area, Koomooloo was Mercedes III with the frames a bit further apart.

Que?

 

Koomooloo and Mercedes were by Ted Kafuman were they not?

Indeed they were, as was Mercedes IV, but there was an unspecified amount of Benbob input to all three, never clarified. I've seen confirmation some place that MIII and Koomooloo were built on the same lines.

 

Mercedes IV, (turning 40 this year) however, looks nothing like Bob Miller's designs of the period and the plans (I have access to a copy) are signed "H.T Kaufman"

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Does anyone here know the backstory behind him changing his name from Bob Miller to Ben Lexcen? I was around at the time but never saw any sort of explanation - it was treated in the press simply as some sort of eccentricity.

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Does anyone here know the backstory behind him changing his name from Bob Miller to Ben Lexcen? I was around at the time but never saw any sort of explanation - it was treated in the press simply as some sort of eccentricity.

 

From Wikipedia, sounds reasonable enough.

 

"During the first years of his partnership with Bond, Miller withdrew his partnership from his sailmaking company but the company retained its name of Miller and Whitworth. Soon after the 1974 Cup challenge, Miller changed his name to avoid confusion with his former company. Keen to prevent the possibility of there being any confusion surrounding his name and business interests in the future, he asked a friend who worked for Readers' Digest to find out the least used surname within their membership. The result was Lexcen."

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Lexcen

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Anyone remember "Hot August Night" alias "The Western Red Setter"?

Benny designed for "Robbo" Robertson.

Apparently started as a 37/38 footer with winged keel; ended up 34' with std keel.

Built by McConaghy.

Sailed many miles on her, not a bad thing in her day.

Yep, remember her fondly! Had the pleasure of sailing on her out of RPAYC around 86-87 or there abouts. was a young lad back then and had the bow duties. :-)

Believe she resides in Hobart these days. more info here: http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=147635&hl=%2Bhot+%2Baugust+%2Bnight+%2Bruffian

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Hi all , just browsin the web and came over this thread.

 

My new Boat , Wild Card , Lexcen 30 (9.17m) built by McConaghy yachts in Sydney in 1981 ( don't know this for certain , just what I was told ) originally known as Break n Out as mentioned by Swanno.

post-105658-0-79045700-1389697418_thumb.jpg

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was that the plug for the M & W 32 mould ?

No, the 32 was an earlier design. The 3/4 tonner was around 35 Ft loa iirc.

In case anyone's looking for a project there's a fairly derelict 32 sitting on the hard at Devine Marine on Blackwattle Bay. Ugly as and in no way fast IMHO...wouldn't be surprised if he took the lines of a 34 and just moved the stations a bit closer together. He had form in that area, Koomooloo was Mercedes III with the frames a bit further apart.

Que?

 

Koomooloo and Mercedes were by Ted Kafuman were they not?

Indeed they were, as was Mercedes IV, but there was an unspecified amount of Benbob input to all three, never clarified. I've seen confirmation some place that MIII and Koomooloo were built on the same lines.

 

Mercedes IV, (turning 40 this year) however, looks nothing like Bob Miller's designs of the period and the plans (I have access to a copy) are signed "H.T Kaufman"

 

Bob Ross's 1960s book "The Sailing Australians" and the '74 one he co-wrote ("Ocean Racing Around the World") both state that M3 was designed by Kaufman with (as you say) unspecified input from Ben, who had sailed with Ted on Ted's Star class years before. I have a vague memory that Ben claimed most of the lines. Ted had of course already designed his own ocean racer, in the form of M2.

 

I'd tend to think that there is a reasonable amount of similarity in the looks of Mercedes III and Ben's own designs of the time such as Tampico II (28') and Marsude (34'). I'm mainly thinking of the profile of the ends.

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There was a 4th boat "SCORPIO" built in Mossentall Marine Durban , South Africa

post-55610-0-64367700-1390164715_thumb.jpg

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And there were 3 M&W 35's built in Durban , South Africa by Mosenthal's Marine (Cloud Nine, Red Amber and Soundwave)- a smaller version of Ginkgo, complete with Gorilla Pits, Bloopers, et al.

There were 5 incidentally, 4 of which were launched in 1975. The four boats were:Scorpio, Red Amber, Soundwave and Cloud Nine.

 

These boats were designed in 1973 by Bob Miller as a small version of his Gingko design.
Scorpio was definitely launched in 1975 and sailed in the 1976 Cape to Rio Race which started in January 1976.
She participated in 76 and 77 on Cowes Week Race http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=137441&p=4454687
Scorpio ran aground on the Spanish coast on December 7, 1978, during a heavy storm.

Adrian Ford, who had sailed on the Flyer for around the world race, and his companion died.

I will apreciate get more info about these boats.
Scorpio was refurbished and currently is sailing as "Rosina".

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And there were 3 M&W 35's built in Durban , South Africa by Mosenthal's Marine (Cloud Nine, Red Amber and Soundwave)- a smaller version of Ginkgo, complete with Gorilla Pits, Bloopers, et al.

There were 5 incidentally, 4 of which were launched in 1975. The four boats were:Scorpio, Red Amber, Soundwave and Cloud Nine.

 

These boats were designed in 1973 by Bob Miller as a small version of his Gingko design.
Scorpio was definitely launched in 1975 and sailed in the 1976 Cape to Rio Race which started in January 1976.
She participated in 76 and 77 on Cowes Week Race http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=137441&p=4454687
Scorpio ran aground on the Spanish coast on December 7, 1978, during a heavy storm.

Adrian Ford, who had sailed on the Flyer for around the world race, and his companion died.

I will apreciate get more info about these boats.
Scorpio was refurbished and currently is sailing as "Rosina".

 

 

 

And there were 3 M&W 35's built in Durban , South Africa by Mosenthal's Marine (Cloud Nine, Red Amber and Soundwave)- a smaller version of Ginkgo, complete with Gorilla Pits, Bloopers, et al.

There were 5 incidentally, 4 of which were launched in 1975. The four boats were:Scorpio, Red Amber, Soundwave and Cloud Nine.

 

These boats were designed in 1973 by Bob Miller as a small version of his Gingko design.
Scorpio was definitely launched in 1975 and sailed in the 1976 Cape to Rio Race which started in January 1976.
She participated in 76 and 77 on Cowes Week Race http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=137441&p=4454687
Scorpio ran aground on the Spanish coast on December 7, 1978, during a heavy storm.

Adrian Ford, who had sailed on the Flyer for around the world race, and his companion died.

I will apreciate get more info about these boats.
Scorpio was refurbished and currently is sailing as "Rosina".

post-55610-0-15006400-1390167264_thumb.jpg

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How well did the South African M&W 35s go? Were they 3/4 tonners (as I assume)?

 

Down here a couple of the M&W 35s were pretty pedestrian (as noted above) but one with a less tortured stern, Matika II, ended up doing very well for a few years when she aged a bit. Dingo was obviously quick as shown by her third place at the first world titles. Were they potentially fast but hard to get going???

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And there were 3 M&W 35's built in Durban , South Africa by Mosenthal's Marine (Cloud Nine, Red Amber and Soundwave)- a smaller version of Ginkgo, complete with Gorilla Pits, Bloopers, et al.

There were 5 incidentally, 4 of which were launched in 1975. The four boats were:Scorpio, Red Amber, Soundwave and Cloud Nine.

 

These boats were designed in 1973 by Bob Miller as a small version of his Gingko design.
Scorpio was definitely launched in 1975 and sailed in the 1976 Cape to Rio Race which started in January 1976.
She participated in 76 and 77 on Cowes Week Race http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=137441&p=4454687
Scorpio ran aground on the Spanish coast on December 7, 1978, during a heavy storm.

Adrian Ford, who had sailed on the Flyer for around the world race, and his companion died.

I will apreciate get more info about these boats.
Scorpio was refurbished and currently is sailing as "Rosina".

"Cloud Nine" was also involved in a tragic incident - probably in '76? She was being delivered down the East coast of South Africa when, in a severe storm North of East London, a youngster was lost overboard. In attempting to recover him, the skipper was also lost overboard. The traumatised crew were taken off by a fishing boat, "Cloud Nine" was dismasted in the process and abandoned. She was found still afloat about a month later in the vicinity of Plettenberg Bay and towed back to Port Elizabeth.

 

There were also a number of M&W 26's built in Durban.

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Hi all , just browsin the web and came over this thread.

 

My new Boat , Wild Card , Lexcen 30 (9.17m) built by McConaghy yachts in Sydney in 1981 ( don't know this for certain , just what I was told ) originally known as Break n Out as mentioned by Swanno.

 

Nice looking boat mate. She looks in excellent condition.

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How well did the South African M&W 35s go? Were they 3/4 tonners (as I assume)?

 

Down here a couple of the M&W 35s were pretty pedestrian (as noted above) but one with a less tortured stern, Matika II, ended up doing very well for a few years when she aged a bit. Dingo was obviously quick as shown by her third place at the first world titles. Were they potentially fast but hard to get going???

I am not sure . I have heard that Scorpio participated in 3/4 worlds in La Rochelle? with unsucesfull results.

 

Picture shows 3/4 "Rosina" ( refurbished Scorpio)

post-55610-0-41379300-1390212160_thumb.jpg

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Scorpio was entered in the 1978 Middle Sea Race. She had a dark blue hull at the time. I'll see if I can dig out a photo.

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How well did the South African M&W 35s go? Were they 3/4 tonners (as I assume)?

 

Down here a couple of the M&W 35s were pretty pedestrian (as noted above) but one with a less tortured stern, Matika II, ended up doing very well for a few years when she aged a bit. Dingo was obviously quick as shown by her third place at the first world titles. Were they potentially fast but hard to get going???

I am not sure . I have heard that Scorpio participated in 3/4 worlds in La Rochelle? with unsucesfull results.

 

Picture shows 3/4 "Rosina" ( refurbished Scorpio)

 

 

Although I might be wrong, I do not remember Scorpio or any of her sisterships on the water in La Rochelle.

That would mean that either she was not there or not to be seen in the first half of the fleet.

 

It is clear, though, that the evolution of 3/4 tonners between '75 and '78 was going at a very fast pace and obsolescence came in months. A '75 winning-hull would be trailing the fleet in '77.

 

I also remember that Patrice Ratzel of the French "Ossian" string of boats had bought one of the M&W 35', might have been Dingo but I do not remember. He and his crew had been an excellent Morning 34, very good with a Morgan 33, still they could not fight the Nic 33s and Contentions in the R.O.R.C champs with the M&W, not talking about the latest one-offs.

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Scorpio was entered in the 1978 Middle Sea Race. She had a dark blue hull at the time. I'll see if I can dig out a photo.

Yes ! and Under the same S.A ownership.

She was last across the finish line (but was one of the three smaller boats) and ended up 16th out of 18 finishers corrected. To be honest this was a big-boats edition.

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Scorpio was entered in the 1978 Middle Sea Race. She had a dark blue hull at the time. I'll see if I can dig out a photo.

I would apreciate if you can get some Scorpio picture on those times.

 

 

Scorpio was entered in the 1978 Middle Sea Race. She had a dark blue hull at the time. I'll see if I can dig out a photo.

Yes ! and Under the same S.A ownership.

She was last across the finish line (but was one of the three smaller boats) and ended up 16th out of 18 finishers corrected. To be honest this was a big-boats edition.

Where do you get such info?

post-55610-0-05731200-1390328664_thumb.jpg

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Scorpio was entered in the 1978 Middle Sea Race. She had a dark blue hull at the time. I'll see if I can dig out a photo.

I would apreciate if you can get some Scorpio picture on those times.

 

 

Scorpio was entered in the 1978 Middle Sea Race. She had a dark blue hull at the time. I'll see if I can dig out a photo.

Yes ! and Under the same S.A ownership.

She was last across the finish line (but was one of the three smaller boats) and ended up 16th out of 18 finishers corrected. To be honest this was a big-boats edition.

 

 

Where do you get such info?

 

 

Info: :) Hv a file with sailing instructions and result sheets for the races where I was in charge of the boat and program ;)

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There is some way to get info when she was Scorpio?
We own the boat since then (1978 ) - I am 60 years old - and I try collect and put together all the info about she, before we become more old and forget boat´s name !!

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There is some way to get info when she was Scorpio?

We own the boat since then (1978 ) - I am 60 years old - and I try collect and put together all the info about she, before we become more old and forget boat´s name !!

Congratulations !

 

Actually info and pics in this thread are some of the best.

The only thing I can add is that she was entered in the '78 MSR by a Mr R.G Nuttall from the R. Nat Y.C (which might well behttp://rnyc.org.za/)

The same owner entered her in the '77 ultra light wind Fastnet where she retired.

 

M. be - as the current owner - the above club might help you ?

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There is some way to get info when she was Scorpio?

We own the boat since then (1978 ) - I am 60 years old - and I try collect and put together all the info about she, before we become more old and forget boat´s name !!

Congratulations !

 

Actually info and pics in this thread are some of the best.

The only thing I can add is that she was entered in the '78 MSR by a Mr R.G Nuttall from the R. Nat Y.C (which might well behttp://rnyc.org.za/)

The same owner entered her in the '77 ultra light wind Fastnet where she retired.

 

M. be - as the current owner - the above club might help you ?

Wal,

I'd imagine Bobby Nuttall is possibly deceased, but get in touch with Richard Crockett, editor / publisher of Sailing Magazine http://www.sailing.co.za

I'm sure he'd be able to help. Ask him to put you in touch with Dave Cox, who also contributes to the publication - I seem to recall that he owned "Cloud Nine" and is a fund of information on Durban boats and sailing in RSA.

 

Cheers

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Anybody have anything on the M&W 48' racer that was built in Greece (Olympic Yachts IIRC)

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A couple of photos of Guia IV taken at the 1977 Middle Sea Race

Way cool - a wealth of detail there. Can't imagine the pit that far forward did a lot for performance, probably caught tons of water downwind in a big blow before the drains emptied it.

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Anybody have anything on the M&W 48' racer that was built in Greece (Olympic Yachts IIRC)

 

Called "Geronimo"? Owned by Jeff Lee from Sydney?

 

That's all I got....

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@ Sloop BJ.

 

There was Ceil IV owned by Bill Turnbull, which sailed for Hong Kong in the 1975 Admirals Cup.

I have the feeling she may still be around.

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charisma94, on 23 Jan 2014 - 01:42, said:

 

 

SloopJonB, on 22 Jan 2014 - 18:28, said:

Anybody have anything on the M&W 48' racer that was built in Greece (Olympic Yachts IIRC)

Called "Geronimo"? Owned by Jeff Lee from Sydney?

 

That's all I got....

 

 

There are two which I remember from the '75 Solent / RORC Season Rana II to a Frenchman and Ceil V to Bill Turnbull, both were a disaster on the water and I guess that this put paid to the series.

 

Production GRP built by Olympic yachts, but nearly flush-deck with little comfort amenities, and in a then young guy's eyes: a very strange and convoluted styling of the deck which wanted to look top-modern but ended up just ugly !

 

Rana is an interesting story: the owner, a former Colonel, had met success in business with the RANA system an hyperbolic navigation system aimed at filling in the lack of Decca coverage in Biscay.

He got the offshore racing bug with the first Rana an S&S (IIRC still) which was quite successful in the Med.

Rana II was built as an Adm Cup contender and did not even make the French team!

The owner soon left the racing scene !

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A couple of photos of Guia IV taken at the 1977 Middle Sea Race

 

What are those strange coffee grinders? I remember a Barbarossa "coffee grinder" style winch handle that plugged into the top of a regular winch but I've never seen those side saddle things before.

 

Anybody know?

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There are two which I remember from the '75 Solent / RORC Season Rana II to a Frenchman and Ceil V to Bill Turnbull, both were a disaster on the water and I guess that this put paid to the series.

 

Production GRP built by Olympic yachts, but nearly flush-deck with little comfort amenities, and in a then young guy's eyes: a very strange and convoluted styling of the deck which wanted to look top-modern but ended up just ugly !

Benbob had a pretty bad track record with bigger boats. Clearly the concept didn't scale too well. Ragamuffin 2 and Apollo III were both notable turkeys designed for Admirals Cup selection..

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There are two which I remember from the '75 Solent / RORC Season Rana II to a Frenchman and Ceil V to Bill Turnbull, both were a disaster on the water and I guess that this put paid to the series.

 

Production GRP built by Olympic yachts, but nearly flush-deck with little comfort amenities, and in a then young guy's eyes: a very strange and convoluted styling of the deck which wanted to look top-modern but ended up just ugly !

Benbob had a pretty bad track record with bigger boats. Clearly the concept didn't scale too well. Ragamuffin 2 and Apollo III were both notable turkeys designed for Admirals Cup selection..

Ballyhoo went alright...

 

Apollo (the gherkin) was always an underachiever...

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There are two which I remember from the '75 Solent / RORC Season Rana II to a Frenchman and Ceil V to Bill Turnbull, both were a disaster on the water and I guess that this put paid to the series.

 

Production GRP built by Olympic yachts, but nearly flush-deck with little comfort amenities, and in a then young guy's eyes: a very strange and convoluted styling of the deck which wanted to look top-modern but ended up just ugly !

Benbob had a pretty bad track record with bigger boats. Clearly the concept didn't scale too well. Ragamuffin 2 and Apollo III were both notable turkeys designed for Admirals Cup selection..

Ballyhoo went alright...

 

Apollo (the gherkin) was always an underachiever...

The Gherkin got line honours in 85 and finished only 1 hour behind the new all conquering composite Condor in 83, which in a 3 day race is not so far.. (beat her on handicap, not that it meant anything then)

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There are two which I remember from the '75 Solent / RORC Season Rana II to a Frenchman and Ceil V to Bill Turnbull, both were a disaster on the water and I guess that this put paid to the series.

 

Production GRP built by Olympic yachts, but nearly flush-deck with little comfort amenities, and in a then young guy's eyes: a very strange and convoluted styling of the deck which wanted to look top-modern but ended up just ugly !

Benbob had a pretty bad track record with bigger boats. Clearly the concept didn't scale too well. Ragamuffin 2 and Apollo III were both notable turkeys designed for Admirals Cup selection..

Ballyhoo went alright...

 

Apollo (the gherkin) was always an underachiever...

Ballyhoo was short of competition plus most of them were ketches at the time so when it was upwind it shone. Gherkin wasn't to bad, but was a completely different design philosophy.

 

Anyone know where Ballyhoo is these days? renamed Mistress Quickly a long time ago and lived in Bermuda or somewhere like that I believe.

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There are two which I remember from the '75 Solent / RORC Season Rana II to a Frenchman and Ceil V to Bill Turnbull, both were a disaster on the water and I guess that this put paid to the series.

 

Production GRP built by Olympic yachts, but nearly flush-deck with little comfort amenities, and in a then young guy's eyes: a very strange and convoluted styling of the deck which wanted to look top-modern but ended up just ugly !

Benbob had a pretty bad track record with bigger boats. Clearly the concept didn't scale too well. Ragamuffin 2 and Apollo III were both notable turkeys designed for Admirals Cup selection..

Ballyhoo went alright...

 

Apollo (the gherkin) was always an underachiever...

Ballyhoo was short of competition plus most of them were ketches at the time so when it was upwind it shone. Gherkin wasn't to bad, but was a completely different design philosophy.

 

Anyone know where Ballyhoo is these days? renamed Mistress Quickly a long time ago and lived in Bermuda or somewhere like that I believe.

 

Saw her a year ago in Marseille. Looked beautiful.

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And Mercedes IV was by son Scott Kaufman. Sailed out of Royals in Melbourne in the early 80's. Owned by an elderly lawyer named Dave Braham, and sailed by a bunch of yahoos. Beautifully built in timber by Cec Quilkey, who came down and did some mods on the stern, all by eye, with an electric plane!! No idea where she ended up.

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There are two which I remember from the '75 Solent / RORC Season Rana II to a Frenchman and Ceil V to Bill Turnbull, both were a disaster on the water and I guess that this put paid to the series.

 

Production GRP built by Olympic yachts, but nearly flush-deck with little comfort amenities, and in a then young guy's eyes: a very strange and convoluted styling of the deck which wanted to look top-modern but ended up just ugly !

Benbob had a pretty bad track record with bigger boats. Clearly the concept didn't scale too well. Ragamuffin 2 and Apollo III were both notable turkeys designed for Admirals Cup selection..

 

 

To be fully fair, the lack of success might have come from the very " GRP production like" build of both boats at a time when the competition was putting-up light aluminum and/or cold-moulded boats . They were the only GRP boats with 1 or 2 Swans 41.

The fact that at the same time Guia III (ex Ginkgo) won one of the inshore races may add to this subjective opinion.

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A couple of photos of Guia IV taken at the 1977 Middle Sea Race

What are those strange coffee grinders? I remember a Barbarossa "coffee grinder" style winch handle that plugged into the top of a regular winch but I've never seen those side saddle things before.

 

Anybody know?

 

 

Those winches look a bit neater than what I had seen before but the side-saddle fixture was to be seen on a French brand of winches in the 70's.

I have been trying to remember the name but it keeps escaping me.

 

The story was that Baron Bich commissioned some gear-boxes manufacturer to build winches at the beginning of his AC campaigns. (Incidentally those winches ended-up on one of Tabarly's boats)

 

A group of pro-captains in the then buoyant Marseilles offshore-racing scene then persuaded the manufacturer to launch a high-tech fitting range including those winches. Despite a several years effort, uncompetitive on the boatbuilders front and missing the money and marketing flair of Barbarossa (and the Bassani family), they collapsed.

 

It is therefore surprising to see them making their way on Guia IV.

 

As this post shows memory is failing, but I think those were quite sophisticated and even requested a liquid lubricant, just as gear-boxes.

Brilliant engineering is only one factor in successful business.

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Thanks for that. Actually, brilliant engineering doesn't have all that much to do with success - marketing is what counts, as is proven by all the crap out there that sells.

 

Microsoft is a case in point.

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And Mercedes IV was by son Scott Kaufman. Sailed out of Royals in Melbourne in the early 80's. Owned by an elderly lawyer named Dave Braham, and sailed by a bunch of yahoos. Beautifully built in timber by Cec Quilkey, who came down and did some mods on the stern, all by eye, with an electric plane!! No idea where she ended up.

I doubt that. I have a copy of the original line drawings for Mercedes IV (I am managing a project to get it back racing offshore as we speak) and they are signed "H.T Kaufman" - though clearly there is a resemblance to Scott's boats around the stern so perhaps he was involved. I'll be talking to Ted shortly so will find out.

 

 

Cec Quilkey built Mercedes IV straight after Love & War which is conventional cold moulded timber. The construction is fascinating. Balsa core with layers of Huon Pine inside and out, so "wood sandwich". About 35mm thick in all. Rigid as... I'd be surprised if it could be modded in that way as the core would be exposed.

 

As part of the project I am putting together a history of the boat for the sponsors - please PM me as I would love to know more about those mods you speak of and would like to get in touch with previous owners and crew.

 

The boat has been raced out of the CYCA for over 20 years and lives on the marina there. Here's a pic of the boat taken late last season - love the tumblehome! Hull is now dark grey following a recent repaint.

563795_10151857200959097_1781428995_n.jp

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was that the plug for the M & W 32 mould ?

No, the 32 was an earlier design. The 3/4 tonner was around 35 Ft loa iirc.

In case anyone's looking for a project there's a fairly derelict 32 sitting on the hard at Devine Marine on Blackwattle Bay. Ugly as and in no way fast IMHO...wouldn't be surprised if he took the lines of a 34 and just moved the stations a bit closer together. He had form in that area, Koomooloo was Mercedes III with the frames a bit further apart.

Que?

 

Koomooloo and Mercedes were by Ted Kafuman were they not?

Indeed they were, as was Mercedes IV, but there was an unspecified amount of Benbob input to all three, never clarified. I've seen confirmation some place that MIII and Koomooloo were built on the same lines.

 

Mercedes IV, (turning 40 this year) however, looks nothing like Bob Miller's designs of the period and the plans (I have access to a copy) are signed "H.T Kaufman"

So who designed Mercedes III? Linky

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With her straight sheer and short full keel with attached rudder, Mercedes III seems to be somewhat influenced by Laurent Giles Myth of Malham, done 20 years earlier in 1947. It's surprising that in 1967 Miller was not looking at more modern boats (with fin keel and spade rudders) by Van De Stadt or John Spencer.

 

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Just in case it hasn't been listed; came across this in my online travels.

1986 Lexcen 40

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Bob designed my Javelin (built by Ian Peden) in 1968 and scaled it down to a Cherub in 1970, two of which were built by Ian Peden for Grant and Karen Simmer (Rock 'n Roll and Boogie Woogie).

 

The photo below at The Spit is of left to right ... me, Grant Simmer, Ian Hobbs and Tony Leahy.

 

When I cleared out my apartment in late 2013, I discovered the line drawings and stations that Bob had done for the Cherub (see below). I still had them because I had made a couple of half models, one of my Javelin, the other for Karen Simmer of Boogie Woogie.

 

My memory isn't what it was, but I think it was Bob that also designed another Cherub (Hello Goodbye) for Mandy Wilmot and I. Jamie Wilmot and I built it as a plug, then took a couple of boats from it for the 1972 Cherub World Championship in Auckland (they were too heavy for anything much than a major blow, well, that and I was crap ...).

 

Just seeing the Swinger mentioned above, I recall teaching Don Buckley (Colour 7) to do the fit-out of them for his after-school job ...

 

I remember doing some fitting out of Tampico II, designed by Bob for the father of one of the apprentice sailmakers, Garry McKenzie, when it was first built (again by Ian Peden if I remember correctly) moored alongside I think Ferguson's Boatshed at The Spit.

 

After it did its first Hobart, I sailed it back as far as Eden with a couple of guys from the Navy where "Mac" McKenzie had some relatives. I vaguely recall the weather forecast was pretty dire for the week ahead and after a tense conversation with Craig Whitworth on the 'phone (If you want your job, get back here now ...), I caught the bus from Eden to Sydney the next day ... and to think that I turned down Alain Colas' offer to sail Pen Duick back to France via Tahiti to go back to Sydney ... idiot.

 

Bob also designed a very early Sharpie/FD like version of the Contender with a tiny jib and a hard chine, we called it the Yellow Submarine (pre-dating the Beatles song) ... absolutely terrifying ... I sailed it a number of times whilst it was stored at Adams' Boatshed at The Spit in the early 1960s, it was eventually sold to the son of the stationmaster at Warrawee in the mid-1960s.

 

 

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Oh, I forgot about a 5.5 metre for Frank Tolhurst, Kings Cross, Bob gave a half model of that to me at one stage that disappeared from my apartment in the late 1990s or early 2000s ...

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Hi, as you can probably see, I'm not on or comment often, what is the "Pre Matthews" thread?

 

Which Cherub were you at MHYC?

 

Cheers, Peter

 

 

Thanks for those, do not be surprised if the Cherub stuff ends up reposted in thje "Pre Matthews" thread, with credit. I got dumped for Auckland for my skips NS mate, they bombed, where as we were a good combo at MHYC lol *kharma*

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Ahhh, ok, I understand ...

 

Another Bob Cherub came to mind as well, Gladys Victoria (for Dixie Wilmot), probably around 1973, although I don't remember much about it because I'd moved on by that stage and I'd left M&W, I certainly don't have any photos, stations or line drawings of that one.

 

I remember making a promotional film in the middle of winter when the Contender first came out, sailing up and down just off Clontarf in shorts and a T-shirt being tea-bagged by the gusty and cold SW breeze whilst Ward (Pally) Austin's wife ran along Clontarf Beach in a bikini waving at me ... Bob always voulnteered me for the best jobs ...

 

Yeah, Rene (Rowena Wilmot) was always a little conservative ... Bucko certainly would've been into it though ...

 

I ran into her and Geoff Davidson (Dixie's crew for some years) a couple of years ago at the RSYS whilst I was doing a ladies race with a mate's wife (Brian Richardson from Australia II) 'cause he preferred not to interfere in her sailing exploits ...

 

Here's a couple more of Hello Goodbye in Auckland, a Swinger (being chased around Middle Harbour by Nick Creech in the middle of winter in a tinnie wasn't my idea of fun, although Craig had a great laugh about it) ...

 

 

 

 

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Hi DD, I can't say that I recognise it although the sail nr is relatively early. It has a touch of the early "Bethwaite" about the hull (although a little hard to tell from this pic). The boom looks like one of mine and the mast (if a De Haviland) probably one of mine as well ... or did you make them yourselves?

 

Nice pic headed in towards Balmoral though (coming back from the Bombora mark?) ...

 

Cheers, Peter

 

 

There was a rumour the boat I started out on was a Miller. Never did find out. Ishtar, IIRC this was in '75

cherub.jpg

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Yeah, that's what I was thinking ... around about the right timeframe for it.

 

I'm a bit baffled by the topper on the end of the pole ... but as 1975 was after my time, perhaps that was "normal" ...

 

Did 1089 have the black graphite "go fast" paint under the chines?

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Yeah, that's what I was thinking ... around about the right timeframe for it.

 

I'm a bit baffled by the topper on the end of the pole ... but as 1975 was after my time, perhaps that was "normal" ...

 

Did 1089 have the black graphite "go fast" paint under the chines?

Indeed it did ate, and on the foils. We had three centreboards IIRC, one huge, one middling and a small one.

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I seem to remember that kite, the hull & set up looks a lot older than what was happening in 75 (my last season) Cherub on Sundays & 18s on saturdays. Most built after 72 seemed to have the open tuck area with side bouyancy. Then again most of the new builds were not BenBob designs by then.

Ishtar was defs an older boat by then. My skipper took it over from his older sister who had sailed it with Rob Brewer, we got the oldie and they moved on to a new Murray hull their dad built wit not much success IIRC.

 

Iain Murray was well and truly designing and building boats ((or his father was) by then. I went through school with him, Fresh, Tony Hannan, Glenn Bourke, Craig Ferguson, Mitch Miller etc. who were all hanging around Middle Harbour at the time.

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Yeah, that's what I was thinking ... around about the right timeframe for it.

 

I'm a bit baffled by the topper on the end of the pole ... but as 1975 was after my time, perhaps that was "normal" ...

 

Did 1089 have the black graphite "go fast" paint under the chines?

IIRC the topper and kicker were on a s/s ring that somehow slid along the pole and locked at either end when twisted a certain way. Very hazy memories of how all that worked I confess...

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Hi DD, I can't say that I recognise it although the sail nr is relatively early. It has a touch of the early "Bethwaite" about the hull (although a little hard to tell from this pic). The boom looks like one of mine and the mast (if a De Haviland) probably one of mine as well ... or did you make them yourselves?

 

Nice pic headed in towards Balmoral though (coming back from the Bombora mark?) ...

 

Cheers, Peter

 

 

There was a rumour the boat I started out on was a Miller. Never did find out. Ishtar, IIRC this was in '75

cherub.jpg

Think the mast was DeHavilland. Yep, late season Nor'easter I'd say rolling in from the Bommy towards Balmoral YA. The boat was narrow with plenty of rocker so it was a bit of a weapon in the light. That was our max size light weather kite - it was pretty stretched as you can see but it worked OK running square. Rubbish reaching.

 

This was my first ever season of dinghy sailing so fair to say we weren't hugely competitive, especially in the company we were keeping around there in those days!

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I seem to remember that boat; was the name written in gold on the transom? The other Cherubs around MHYC that I can recall around that era were Foogoo (sp) and Stardust. I was right at the back of the MJ fleet at the time (and for some time afterwards).



NucMed, thanks for posting your very interesting pics.

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Ahh, ok, I recall the Brewers and I'm just wondering if it wasn't a hull by Keith Revell, although the aft tank confuses me a bit, but in those days there were quite a number of people knocking them out.

 

Yeah, Iain was always scribbling away even as a kid, he and Heather (younger sister, who could sail tolerably well, but wasn't really into it and with all the old bollocks that was going on about age limits in those days kinda was a bit of a turn-off ...) would hang around me at The Spit on the weekends and on visits to M&W, so I got to know the whole family pretty well.

 

Al was always under the house tinkering away on bits and bobs, but it was a good dry place where I could put together their masts and rigging for them. Al is still kicking on at 91 (I think), I was meant to get together with them all when I was back in Sydney in March and April, but didn't get the time ... next time perhaps ...

 

I think the last stuff I did for Iain was some masts for the 18s (and a couple for some other 18s) one night in the late 1970s. Five fully rigged 18's masts in a night ... by about 0430hrs I was over it ... but all of them managed to get back onto the water for the next race ...

 

Cheers, Peter

 

 

Think the mast was DeHavilland. Yep, late season Nor'easter I'd say rolling in from the Bommy towards Balmoral YA. The boat was narrow with plenty of rocker so it was a bit of a weapon in the light. That was our max size light weather kite - it was pretty stretched as you can see but it worked OK running square. Rubbish reaching.

 

This was my first ever season of dinghy sailing so fair to say we weren't hugely competitive, especially in the company we were keeping around there in those days!

 

Iain Murray was well and truly designing and building boats ((or his father was) by then.

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Ah yes, the multiple centreboards ... which one to use ... ah well, it kept the Bethwaites nicely employed (less so Keith Revell) ... although I recall making a hollow one myself from an Australian cedar wardrobe that my parents had deemed as not modern enough for our house ...

 

The bloody thing would probably be worth about $50 000 now ...

 

 

 

Yeah, that's what I was thinking ... around about the right timeframe for it.

 

I'm a bit baffled by the topper on the end of the pole ... but as 1975 was after my time, perhaps that was "normal" ...

 

Did 1089 have the black graphite "go fast" paint under the chines?

Indeed it did ate, and on the foils. We had three centreboards IIRC, one huge, one middling and a small one.

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I seem to remember that boat; was the name written in gold on the transom? The other Cherubs around MHYC that I can recall around that era were Foogoo (sp) and Stardust. I was right at the back of the MJ fleet at the time (and for some time afterwards).

 

NucMed, thanks for posting your very interesting pics.

Very possibly Chris - memory hazy.

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Hmmm. Don't recall Eugine. Do recall Greg Hyde I think he was Flying Ant cc the year I started, Cherub maybe a year or two later. Greg was a year behind me at school, Hanno a year ahead. If I'm right Greg had a hot Murray boat and Fresh as crew at some point which was always helpful. Was sad to hear of his medical issues a while back but great to see him back on the water.

 

I think Bethwaite, N was still in the fleet when I started so this is may be a year or two after your time.

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Funny story on the subject: In the summer of 76 in Marseilles, a group of us, including Brit Chance, were walking to our boat in the yard when Brit noticed Bob Miller working on the keel of one of his designs (can't remember the name). Brit yells out; hey Bob, how you doing (or words that effect) but Bob just ignores him. We get closer and Brit tries again, but Bob continues to ignore him. Brit is now pissed off, so he walks the few remaining steps, grabs Bob by the arm and says something like; WTF Bob, you just going to ignore me. At which point Bob says; its Ben mate. Brit is now red faced fit to be tied. What do you mean its Ben. Who the hell is Ben. What is the matter with you. Its Ben Lexcen mate. I changed me name. Brit still thinks Bob/Ben is messing with him, which he was (Brit was pretty easy to mess with) but he calms down just enough to let Bob/Ben explain it to him just a little. At which point we all said good bye to Bob Miller and met Ben Lexcen. Brit was pissed off for days.

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Nicola was there , i started racing in end 71/72 (CHS): MHYC 72/73 left end 75/season. Greg & Tony were both Flying Ants then started Cherubs in my 2nd season. Hanno may, with his GLV,have been after Greg into the class.

It's all hazy. Can't remember whether I started in 74/75 or 75/76 - probably the latter.

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Top pic in Hobart, bottom pic in SYC, I assume from when she did Melb-Hob westcoaster a few years back? I think she's up for sale again too

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Pazzaz Miller And Whitworth 36: Coast Boat Sales is proud to offer for sale this very rare and special Miller and Whitworth designed 1974 Lexan 36 sloop, which has been lovingly and professionally rebuilt with no expense spared.
***New engine installed 2016***
Built by Douglas Brooker Yachts in Sydney, "Pazzaz" was originally designed for the Victorian yachtsman Rick Laycock by Bob Miller, aka Ben Lexcen, the designer of Americas Cup winning yacht Australia II and his partner Craig Whitworth and has spent most of her life in Port Phillip Bay. When first launched, she and her sister ship, Rampage, were immediately big news and very competitive in Australia. Aboard Pazazz is a wall of race medallions and trophy cups, including a three quarter ton IOR title.
She has completed many races across Bass Straight and apart from being extremely seaworthy, Pazazz proves to be fast and comfortable and easy to sail single handed.
Her restoration and transformation into a cruiser / racer has taken over two years and due to a change of circumstance her owner is now offering Pazazz for sale. The restoration is so comprehensive that it is impossible to list. However, a spreadsheet is available to serious buyers, detailing over $100,000 worth of work.
She delights the eye as well as the sailor in all of us and recently returned to Sydney Harbour, this is a rare opportunity to own a magnificent, completely restored, ready to go sailing vessel.

0_4.jpg

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Viking 30 Production boats built by Lars Eriksen in West Australia , popular as suited for the conditions there.6_4.jpg

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YOKO 50 A very well travelled boat with a couple? of Melbourne to Osaka shorthanded races often up against lightweight flyers and the Melbourne to Hobart races down the rugged west coast. 0_4.jpg

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9.6 Lexcen built by Beswicks after Lexcens death ,not sure when the molds were made but a number of boats built in SA??

1_4.jpg

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Pazzaz Miller And Whitworth 36: Coast Boat Sales is proud to offer for sale this very rare and special Miller and Whitworth designed 1974 Lexan 36 sloop, which has been lovingly and professionally rebuilt with no expense spared.

***New engine installed 2016***

Built by Douglas Brooker Yachts in Sydney, "Pazzaz" was originally designed for the Victorian yachtsman Rick Laycock by Bob Miller, aka Ben Lexcen, the designer of Americas Cup winning yacht Australia II and his partner Craig Whitworth and has spent most of her life in Port Phillip Bay. When first launched, she and her sister ship, Rampage, were immediately big news and very competitive in Australia. Aboard Pazazz is a wall of race medallions and trophy cups, including a three quarter ton IOR title.

She has completed many races across Bass Straight and apart from being extremely seaworthy, Pazazz proves to be fast and comfortable and easy to sail single handed.

Her restoration and transformation into a cruiser / racer has taken over two years and due to a change of circumstance her owner is now offering Pazazz for sale. The restoration is so comprehensive that it is impossible to list. However, a spreadsheet is available to serious buyers, detailing over $100,000 worth of work.

She delights the eye as well as the sailor in all of us and recently returned to Sydney Harbour, this is a rare opportunity to own a magnificent, completely restored, ready to go sailing vessel.

0_4.jpg

 

Never seen a boat built of Lexan before. :rolleyes:

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VVViking 30 2_4.jpg

Viking 30 built By Voyager yachts Western Australia

because Claremont was seperated from the ocean by a bridge and many boats had a tabernackle to lower mast to go racing offshore : (there is also racing on the Swan river)

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Madame de Farge / Silent Night Lexcen 50 Ragamuffin II Lexcen 53 Whitsunday Chartering saves a lot of boats

Silent_night.jpgragamuffinii-304x205.jpg

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Pazzaz Miller And Whitworth 36: Coast Boat Sales is proud to offer for sale this very rare and special Miller and Whitworth designed 1974 Lexan 36 sloop, which has been lovingly and professionally rebuilt with no expense spared.

***New engine installed 2016***

Built by Douglas Brooker Yachts in Sydney, "Pazzaz" was originally designed for the Victorian yachtsman Rick Laycock by Bob Miller, aka Ben Lexcen, the designer of Americas Cup winning yacht Australia II and his partner Craig Whitworth and has spent most of her life in Port Phillip Bay. When first launched, she and her sister ship, Rampage, were immediately big news and very competitive in Australia. Aboard Pazazz is a wall of race medallions and trophy cups, including a three quarter ton IOR title.

She has completed many races across Bass Straight and apart from being extremely seaworthy, Pazazz proves to be fast and comfortable and easy to sail single handed.

Her restoration and transformation into a cruiser / racer has taken over two years and due to a change of circumstance her owner is now offering Pazazz for sale. The restoration is so comprehensive that it is impossible to list. However, a spreadsheet is available to serious buyers, detailing over $100,000 worth of work.

She delights the eye as well as the sailor in all of us and recently returned to Sydney Harbour, this is a rare opportunity to own a magnificent, completely restored, ready to go sailing vessel.

0_4.jpg

 

Never seen a boat built of Lexan before. :rolleyes:

 

Very distinctive after sections. I"d love to see the pictures of Apollo while she was having her stern modified.

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Sailed on a 1/2 toner "fuzzy duck" in sydney harbour circa 1990. The boat was I think a Miller & Whitworth 32. I left for Auckland in December 1990 and got a call from the owner to sail the boat in the south China sea series 1992. He was a movie and tv sound man (Les McKenzie) and had relocated to Hong Kong. The boat was unbelievably heavy and not competitive. In addition it had twin forward hatches that did not seal and did a Niagara impression. I managed to get a kiwi to come with me to HK who knew what he was doing and we jagged a couple of light airs results to finish mid pack. Miraculous! coincidentaly I was at a medical conference in Auckland 20 years later and ended up at dinner sittin next to the original owner of the boat. The boat was fittingly bright yellow. It was the last boat I ever sailed on that was cross winched. Also the winch handles inserted into deck sockets away from the winches.

 

She was solid in a breeze and I had one magic evening reaching at 9 knots across Subic Bay in a 25kt NE in a flurry of phosphorescence,followed by a beat past Corregidor and across Manilla bay into town.

Sailed on a 1/2 toner "fuzzy duck" in sydney harbour circa 1990. The boat was I think a Miller & Whitworth 32. I left for Auckland in December 1990 and got a call from the owner to sail the boat in the south China sea series 1992. He was a movie and tv sound man (Les McKenzie) and had relocated to Hong Kong. The boat was unbelievably heavy and not competitive. In addition it had twin forward hatches that did not seal and did a Niagara impression. I managed to get a kiwi to come with me to HK who knew what he was doing and we jagged a couple of light airs results to finish mid pack. Miraculous! coincidentaly I was at a medical conference in Auckland 20 years later and ended up at dinner sittin next to the original owner of the boat. The boat was fittingly bright yellow. It was the last boat I ever sailed on that was cross winched. Also the winch handles inserted into deck sockets away from the winches.

 

She was solid in a breeze and I had one magic evening reaching at 9 knots across Subic Bay in a 25kt NE in a flurry of phosphorescence,followed by a beat past Corregidor and across Manilla bay into town.

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Sister ship 'Madame De Farge' in Melbourne many years ago. Some other interesting boats in the picture too:

From left QT Shambles, Steinman 50 Galaxy, Green 31 Lawless, MdF, Dubois 42 Seaquesta, Freccia HT Ali del Aria

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Pazzaz Miller And Whitworth 36: Coast Boat Sales is proud to offer for sale this very rare and special Miller and Whitworth designed 1974 Lexan 36 sloop, which has been lovingly and professionally rebuilt with no expense spared.

***New engine installed 2016***

Built by Douglas Brooker Yachts in Sydney, "Pazzaz" was originally designed for the Victorian yachtsman Rick Laycock by Bob Miller, aka Ben Lexcen, the designer of Americas Cup winning yacht Australia II and his partner Craig Whitworth and has spent most of her life in Port Phillip Bay. When first launched, she and her sister ship, Rampage, were immediately big news and very competitive in Australia. Aboard Pazazz is a wall of race medallions and trophy cups, including a three quarter ton IOR title.

She has completed many races across Bass Straight and apart from being extremely seaworthy, Pazazz proves to be fast and comfortable and easy to sail single handed.

Her restoration and transformation into a cruiser / racer has taken over two years and due to a change of circumstance her owner is now offering Pazazz for sale. The restoration is so comprehensive that it is impossible to list. However, a spreadsheet is available to serious buyers, detailing over $100,000 worth of work.

She delights the eye as well as the sailor in all of us and recently returned to Sydney Harbour, this is a rare opportunity to own a magnificent, completely restored, ready to go sailing vessel.

0_4.jpg

Similar looks but no way were Pazazz and Rampage sister ships. Pazazz, which as far as I can recall spent all her life in Melbourne, is 34-35ft loa as per most 3/4 tonners. Waterfront rumour is that she was purchased on her St Kilda mooring in near terminal condition by the bloke who did the refit for $1.00. I watched his refit with much admiration and he did a beautiful job of restoring her. Best move was to remove the two trench cockpits in her mid-deck!

Hobart winner Rampage is a much bigger boat all round at 40ft, seen here racing in Geelong under Ed Fullers ownership in another lifetime:-

post-449-0-85317100-1481350859_thumb.jpg

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Isn't there a sailing web site in Australia that this foreign drivel can be posted to?

 

Why does the US have to do everything for the entire world?

Aww bless! Forgotton but always gone.

 

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

 

^ Is the interwebs correct that Rampage was originaly 1976 MW40 Onya Of Gosford, then Hotel Tango?

 

No. Rampage was built by the Packer family in Perth. She was a near sistership to Ceil 3, but built in cold moulded ply (can't remember what Ceil was built from - aluminium?). Bob/Ben didn't give any construction details for the stem and it turned out heavy, so they increased ballast to maintain the ratio. To push the extra weight, they added a few feet to the stick so she rated higher than Ceil, but she won the Hobart the year after Ceil did.

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America's Cup... Let's not forget that somehow Liberty managed to hold several simultaneous measurement certificates, and was shifting ballast in and out depending on the days forecast.

All in all, I'd say how the AC went down fit in with the 'ethics' of the era...1st 2nd and 3rd place SORC boats found to have invalid certificates...whole lot of other shenanigans going on.

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Isn't there a sailing web site in Australia that this foreign drivel can be posted to?

 

Why does the US have to do everything for the entire world?

Aww bless! Forgotton but always gone.

 

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

 

^ Is the interwebs correct that Rampage was originaly 1976 MW40 Onya Of Gosford, then Hotel Tango?

 

No. Rampage was built by the Packer family in Perth. She was a near sistership to Ceil 3, but built in cold moulded ply (can't remember what Ceil was built from - aluminium?). Bob/Ben didn't give any construction details for the stem and it turned out heavy, so they increased ballast to maintain the ratio. To push the extra weight, they added a few feet to the stick so she rated higher than Ceil, but she won the Hobart the year after Ceil did.

 

Ceil 3 was moulded timber IMHO

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