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frejo

B&G autopilot trouble

60 posts in this topic

System contains a Hydra pilot connected to a H2000 network with a H2000 compass sensor. The pilot installation is partly new, assembled from both new and used gear. Problem is the pilot, when engaged, all of a sudden goes into Stand by. If I press the comps (or wind or power) button again, I'll have to push a few times until it turns on again. When lying at a dock the other day the heading on the H2000 said "ERR", but this seem to be due to a power cable near by?! Sometimes I get the fault message indicating bad compass data, but not always, when the pilot went into stand by. I did a compass reset and a new swing which made things better, but not perfect. On the H2000 the pilot fault indicates "no".

 

Can this be due to a faulty compass sensor? Can the sensor be positoned in a bad place (this since there a a few power cables near by but I did try to use all pumps and lights when the boat was moored with no cange in the pilot)? I tried with a hand held compass and it seems pretty good though. Any other ideas?

 

/frejo

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The boat has to be moving or you will get a 104 error. You may want to check the error number when it goes to standby. The manual will provide you with some answers. Pilot manual

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Thanks for the answer.

 

I used a fixed speed so that's not really a problem. Trouble is I don't get a error code at all.

 

/frejo

 

 

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Sometimes it says 105, which is the external compass. But sometimes there is no error code...

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Sometimes the memory get corrupted. You may want to redo your commissioning procedure.

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I just did a pilot reset and recommisioned it. I hope this will help but I will not now until tomorrow since the weather today is pretty awful. Thanks for your answer.

 

/frejo

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I just did a pilot reset and recommisioned it. I hope this will help but I will not now until tomorrow since the weather today is pretty awful. Thanks for your answer.

 

/frejo

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Worked like a charm. For a while. Then goes into Stand by all of a sudden. When I try to engage it again nothing happens. After several trials I get fault 105 and the pilot says 360. After even more trials the pilot works again, for a while...

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You may want to check to see if you have a Halcyon 2000 Compass or a ACP Remote Compass Unit. Sometimes an entry (16 or 18) is the wrong one for the compass you have under HSRC in commissioning.

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You may want to check to see if you have a Halcyon 2000 Compass or a ACP Remote Compass Unit. Sometimes an entry (16 or 18) is the wrong one for the compass you have under HSRC in commissioning.

 

And to be really, really sure, see to it that the heading node is not only set in in the pilot display, but in the FFD's (if any) COURSE (CALIBRATION) and COURSE D/R (CALIBRATION) too.

 

lycka till

 

/LC

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Thanks for the answers. I have now done what you suggested but the fault sustains. The difference is that I always get Fault 105.

I will now try a new compass sensor and see if there will be a difference...

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Bought a used H2000 compass. When I connected it the whole Hydra-system shut down. Back to square one... By the way, can a Halcyon 2000 be repaired or is it a throw away?

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If anyone's interested the pilot now works great. I did a check on all connections, changed a bit of cable and the pilot works.

 

/frejo

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Thanks for the update Frejo, I also have some H200 trouble and planning un update on Halcyon gyro, so yes, this is interesting feedback!

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Worked like a charm. For a while. Then goes into Stand by all of a sudden. When I try to engage it again nothing happens. After several trials I get fault 105 and the pilot says 360. After even more trials the pilot works again, for a while...

if you are using 2.01 or 2.03 software it is a bug in the pilot software. I have the same issue, sent logs to B&G (Jeremy) years ago, (2.03 was used in the VDG 3 year ago), just like with the pilot not tacking correctly but no luck. I have 2 ACPs and both the same issue. if you are into electronics I can post how to get a ttl to the pilot and you can see the command being issued to OFF. let me know.

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This summer the pilot has been a real PITA. It usually works from anything between 30 sec. up to 20 minutes and then I get the pilot fault code 105 and the pilot goes into standby. I sometimes get this code even when the pilot is in standby. 105 is external compass. Strangely enough I have never seen the heading being lost on any of my displays. I've tried with two different compass cables with the same result. Any ideas on what do to next? I don't want to, as a first option, buy a new compass sensor, since they are way too expensive if there fault may be somewhere else.

 

It is the older (pre 2004 I believe) ACP2 and H2000 pilot with a Halcyon 2000 compass sensor.

 

Thanks

Fredrik

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I have borrowed another Halcyon 2000 which I will try out this weekend. I also learned today that B&G are shutting down their British factory in favour of the Mexican. The Hydra series will probably shut down as well...

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Worked like a charm. For a while. Then goes into Stand by all of a sudden. When I try to engage it again nothing happens. After several trials I get fault 105 and the pilot says 360. After even more trials the pilot works again, for a while...

it is a problem/bug and it has been reported many times. Jeremy in England knows (and has known for a few years now) about it. But like in most cases it does not get fixed..it is not a problem with the Halcyon 2000, it is a problem with the ACP code.

 

At one time I had a video on youtube showcasing all the bugs (including the pilot going in standby, not tacking, broaching because hunting all over the place, and driving the boat to a dead up wind) in the ACP and H3000/Performance and Motion.

 

The best you can do is to reset your ACP and hope for the best, win the lottery and buy an NKE or get a Nexus or a Raymarine.....

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My ACP is running software version 1,2. The latest there is in the older ACP is 1,5. I am not having such late gear as H3000, but the problems are perhaps the same with the older stuff?

 

I have tried to reset both the ACP and the Halcyon, but the problems are still there. But what you are saying is that there is nothing I can do?? Buying NKE or something else is not an option

 

Thanks

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Believe it or not B&G has not changed much of anything between the h2k and the h3k just a little better hardware, and I would go as far to say the actual CPU is just a step sideways.

 

The actual code on the ACP has not changed much either, especially on the basic functionality logic. Yes they have added some cosmetic stuff like external channels, but as everyone knows if you send more than 2-3 data channels the entire system freezes so not much of real progress there.

 

The one thing left for you to try is to change the connection sequence. For example if you have the cpu then a display then the Halcyon, try to connect the cpu, the Halcyon, then display. have you check the resistance in the bus?

 

The sad truth is that there are not many options with B&G, but to just deal with it or do a forklift replacement.

 

what pilot do you have? h1000? ACP? ACP1-2? they are all "hydra"

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I'll try to change the connection sequence and see if it will be any difference. I have checked the resistance, it's 50 ohms.

 

I have the ACP2.

 

Thanks

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if it is the ACP2 then upgrade the code to R2.03 (check if it is OK with your B&G dealer) because I am not sure if there is a correlation between the H2000 system and displays with the "new" code.

 

it is an extremely easy thing to do. turn off your instruments and disconnect the power, open the ACP on the top right you will see a "token" SD card, replace it wit the program SD card turn your instruments on and you will see the upgrade process in the GPD. once it is done turn off the instruments, disconnect the power, remove the program card, put the token back power on decommission and off you go. Hopefully you can live with the new bugs better than with the old ones :)

 

Also it would be god for ALL of us if you let Matt Fries, Miles Seddon, Jeremy Walke and the rest of the B&G engineering and race management program know of all the problems you have with the B&G pilot. If you are interested we can sign a petition to them asking for fixes as a group. hopefully they will listen that way.

 

It is embarrassing to have paid thousands of dollars and have a pilot that can't track with spinnaker, tack, or go in standby for no reason! it is just dangerous and negligent from their part.

 

Astolfo

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Any chance that the load is pulling enough current to drag the batteries down ? If the voltage required for the clutch gets too low the clutch will let go. If it dips down momentarily and comes back up the clutch will disengage but as the voltage is restored quite quickly the pilot will not show an error.

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It could be.... but I know that this happens on my boat and 3 others that I have "worked" on with the exact same issues, and definitely the pilot going on standby is not a power issue.

 

I know it is anecdotal but :)

 

On my boat I have a 200Ah Fipo dedicated to the ram with Newmar DC-DC Converter-Isolator, a 160Ah dedicated to the B&Gs with its own Newmar DC-DC Converter-Isolator and a 200Ah for the house. All the batteries are LiFePO4.

 

When first troubleshooting this problem I had a couple of Fluke 289 logging different power stats, like voltage, current, resistance and temperature and the guy overseeing and helping with the install is a Navy guy, one of the guys that takes care of the inertial navigational systems in the submarines here in Bangor. So I know and trust that at least on my boat the pilot goes in standby because a problem with the instruments and not because I have a ground loop, or running out of power, or bad connections.

 

I would love for all the B&G problems to be power or installation related, then I would had nothing but enjoyment and trust that when I get on my boat when I am racing solo since that would be a very easy thing to fix.

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if it is the ACP2 then upgrade the code to R2.03 (check if it is OK with your B&G dealer) because I am not sure if there is a correlation between the H2000 system and displays with the "new" code.

 

it is an extremely easy thing to do. turn off your instruments and disconnect the power, open the ACP on the top right you will see a "token" SD card, replace it wit the program SD card turn your instruments on and you will see the upgrade process in the GPD. once it is done turn off the instruments, disconnect the power, remove the program card, put the token back power on decommission and off you go. Hopefully you can live with the new bugs better than with the old ones :)

 

Also it would be god for ALL of us if you let Matt Fries, Miles Seddon, Jeremy Walke and the rest of the B&G engineering and race management program know of all the problems you have with the B&G pilot. If you are interested we can sign a petition to them asking for fixes as a group. hopefully they will listen that way.

 

It is embarrassing to have paid thousands of dollars and have a pilot that can't track with spinnaker, tack, or go in standby for no reason! it is just dangerous and negligent from their part.

 

Astolfo

 

 

Since my ACP is pre 2004 it doesn't have a SD-card. New software is installed on an eprom instead. The latest (last?) software version is 1,5. I will probably test this, if I can get a hold of it, and see if there is any difference. I may also upgrade the software in the display unit, and that is also on an eprom which is a little more diffucult to change though.

 

When you have all this trouble with the pilot Astolfo, do you ever get a fault code?

 

I cannot believe it has anything to do with power supply, this since I sometimes get the fault code when the boat is on shore power and the pilot is in stand by.

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I will post some pictures, the eprom upgrade if I remember correctly is done with an SD card in the pre 2004 as well. The SD location is not all that obvious but I will try to send you some pictures this weekend.

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here is the diagram from the B&G programming guide. a picture of the actual pilot later this week.

 

post-13907-0-77730600-1377734214_thumb.gif

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This is ONE of the many of things that are wrong with B&G's "best in industry" pilot.

 

For example in GPD you can notice that it is set to polar, and that according to the target TWA is 99 (similar to heading 98), while in the GFD in the right the target TWA is 40 (which is correct) and the true wind angle is 42.

 

The way pilots steer to a wind angle is by steering to a heading and adjusting at a given rate to the difference between the wind angle and the heading, then giving a new heading to the pilot.

 

And this is why the B&G pilot does not tack, or even adjust to different target wind angles when in polar mode.

 

I would doubt that any Americas Cup, TP52, Volvo or any other sophisticated racing program would put up with a set of instruments that can't even at a minimum display correct numbers.

post-13907-0-21583500-1377733635_thumb.jpg

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It is sad that B&G latest pilots doesn't work better. But my old pilot does not have any of these fancy features, like true wind or polars. It's only got "Wind", which I believe is apparent wind, "Comp" and "Power". All I'm asking of my pilot is that it should steer in a reasonably straight line and that I can trust it not to shut shut down every now and then. But it seems like it's too much to ask for...

 

I'm still uncertain about my pilot having a SD-card and since my ACP is manufactured in '97 I'm not sure SD-cards even were invented?. It also looks a little bit different inside.

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My ACP looks like this. If you look closely it is also possible to see that Network and Hydra are the same. You only change the eprom, low left, and change the soldered links in the middle.

 

 

$(KGrHqVHJF!FENmcLYw3BRH90W,gH!~~60_57.j

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Did you check the other board? In mine the flash card is on the card that you see on the on the background of this picture, it is really hard to find. The programming SD is 128MB so it "might" be possible, but I am not all that good with electronics carbon dating :)

I am sorry I could not help...

That board look almost brand new!

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Dear all,

I'm reading your interesting post regarding the B&G Autopilot. I want to share with you a problem I'm facing with these days.

I have an old Network B&G Pilot. Some days ago on the Network Pilot display the "INT CMP" message appeared. This message, according to the manual, refers to a compass fault.

The compass is an old Network Fluxgate model (here you can find a picture).

I measured the resistance between the compass terminals (directly from the ACP) and I found:

165 Ohms between 1 and 2 (Drive Coil)

58.3 Ohms between 3 and 5 (NS axis Coil)

58.3 Ohms between 4 and 5 (EW axis Coil)

I know I need to measure the impedance since this works with alternating components, but a normal multimeter is the only measuring instrument that I have. :rolleyes:

At least I'm sure that there are not some open loops.

I was able to find another (used) compass. It is very difficult to find one (new I think it's impossible)

I changed the compass but the "INT CMP" message is still there.

I measured the resistance also for this other compass and I found the same values od the "old" one.

I started suspecting that the problem could be related to the ACP.

Then I opened the ACP. With a toothbrush and alcool I removed a little bit of oxide that was on the boards' contacts. The compass contacts are very close on the boards (the terminal strip board and the other with the EPROM photographed by Frejo) and the oxyde can create some capacitance effect with the high frequencies.

Then I installed again the ACP and.....the "INT CMP" message is still there!!!! :angry:

Now I really don't know what to do. Have someone of you some suggestion?

Thank you.

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I think a class action lawsuit :rolleyes: with the money we get back from B&G we can get NKE, Nexus or Raymarine!

 

Any of them would outperform B&G, or better know as Broken and Garbage! :ph34r:

 

Seriously, I wish I could help you but my knowledge equals 0 in older B&G

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Oh yes, class action could be a great idea!! :-D

Thank you for the reply in any case.

Do you know how I can contact some of the B&G experts you've mentioned before to ask him some suggestion regarding this matter?

Thank you.

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Is the remote compass ( p/n 545-00-030 ) I have here the last one available? I reckon the price just increased somewhat. B)

EDIT: Ooops, it seems to be for Hydra and not Network. My bad

 

 

@ frejo: Vill du låna den och testa om piloten funkar bättre med en egen kompass?

Då väljer du HDG NODE till 17 eller 18.

 

 

/LC

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LC, do you have a new spare compass for the B&G Network Pilot?

The problem is that I'm not sure the fault is related to the compass. It could be related also to the board.

Have you got some experience regarding the lifetime of this kind of compass?

Please let me know.

Thank you.

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Sorry antos,

I looked a bit closer and the new compass i have is for Hydra pilot. Its connector has 6 poles.

Regarding lifetime, NOTHING on this planet will outlive B&G´s old grey boxes (except for maybe Stonehenge). The compass itself is a quite simple thing, just coils. The compass driving curcuit is inside the pilot and it is more likely that the problems lay there.

However, I suggest you check the compass cable before embarassing yourself with sending the pilot box to a workshop.

 

 

/LC

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LC, thank you for your reply.

My old Network compass has a 6 poles connector (the 6th is for the drain wire). You can find a link with a picture in the post #35.

Can you please verify if your compass is the same?

Maybe I found I friend of mine that has the same system and can borrow me the compass so I can try t and see if the problem persists.

I let you know.

In any case, I totally agree with you, I'm starting suspecting the problem is laying in the board driving circuit... In that case, do you know where I can find a spare board for this my Network ACP?

Thank you.

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The compass I have is a " COMP SENSOR ", complete part number: 545-00-030, including sensor, cable, mounting screws and a 'Compass area'-sticker. Serial number. P2RC C29 3006. I'm 99% sure it is the correct one. ( I offered frejo to borrow it to diagnost and see if things improve).

 

In my opinion, the best serviceplace for B&G is Tinley Electronics in UK. Check with them to find a PCB.

www.tinleyelectronics.com

 

/LC

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I do believe that the compass sensor for Hydra and Network are the same, especially as the ACPs are the same besides the links and eprom (see picture above).

 

I also believe that Tinley is B&G-service, at least do a degree.

 

LeCanard: Eventuellt skulle jag vara intresserad. Jag har en svart kompass som jag inte kan svinga, något jag tror beror på att jag inte har rätt kabel och kanske har pajat den genom att jag tidigare felkopplade den. Piloten går dock aldrig i stand by med den svarta kompassen. Var håller du hus?

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Tried new Halcyon. Did not do any difference. Shit!

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I tried the borrowed, and surely working, compass. Nothing to do, "INT CMP" is still there...

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Tried new Halcyon. Did not do any difference. Shit!

have you tried a full system reset, checking the resistance at the end of the bus?

 

If nothing works then a Raymarine with NMEA from the B&G is a ACP replacement option. it worked good on my boat....once I started to use the shipmodle multiplexer after he implemented the routing feature I asked him to include.

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Thank you for your answers.

 

I have now tried everything I could, I believe, and the pilot still doesn't work. Investing in a new pilot is not an option, and since I only have NMEA 0183 I don't believe Raymarine is possible even if I had the money to invest.

 

This coming winter I'll ship the control display and ACP to Tinley and see if they can duplicate the problem and hope that it is something cheap (which it probably isn't). I'm wondering though if perhaps the fault isn't in the pilot at all since the Halcyon 2000 is connected via Fastnet. Can it be my very old Hydra processor that's messing things up?? Just a thought...

 

New Leaf, if you don't mind me asking, what did you do with your B&G pilot?

 

/frejo

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@ frejo : check your IM.

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Thank you for your answers.

 

I have now tried everything I could, I believe, and the pilot still doesn't work. Investing in a new pilot is not an option, and since I only have NMEA 0183 I don't believe Raymarine is possible even if I had the money to invest.

 

This coming winter I'll ship the control display and ACP to Tinley and see if they can duplicate the problem and hope that it is something cheap (which it probably isn't). I'm wondering though if perhaps the fault isn't in the pilot at all since the Halcyon 2000 is connected via Fastnet. Can it be my very old Hydra processor that's messing things up?? Just a thought...

 

New Leaf, if you don't mind me asking, what did you do with your B&G pilot?

 

/frejo

I still have it :(...but would sell EVERYTHING for the right price.

 

I have 4 GFDs, 6 GPDs (1 or 2 never used), a 72" carbo windvane, 2 ACPs (Both pilots have the Vendee glove software and the TTL connection so you can actually get to the base code and do all types of changes), 2 Halcyon Gyro Stabilized compasses, One Motion CPU Depth sounder and an ultrasonic knot meter, once ACP programmer and one Display/CPU programmer only available to dealers and those who do the R&D for B&G.

 

if you give me 60% of the aggregate price for the GFDs,GPDs, CPU and Sensors you get everything. just he programmers and the TTL connection and unlock codes are worth over $10k.

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Dear NewLeaf,

 

I understand that you really are pissed off having invested so heavily in this very expensive equipment. It's way out of my league though.

 

/frejo

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I am not pissed off, I am sorry if I sound that way. Just stating the facts as I see them and I have experienced in 3-4 other boats I tried to help. Granted, I would LOVE to have someone to buy my gear and be able to move on.

 

But I would still try to help those that have B&G and do not get the support B&G should provide when you spend tens of thousands of dollars on their gear.

If anyone out there has issues with their B&G h3000 or pilot I want to help.

 

For example at one time, this gentleman bought a full H3000 Motion and ACP and his "certified" installer charged him thousands of dollars for the install, but what he failed to do was to disable the wind corrections on the pilot, so what happens you end up having the CPU correcting for heel, trim and yaw and then ACP correcting for heel trim and yaw again so you end up with so much more error in the wind calculations that the pilot goes crazy hunting for wind that does not exist. For example not even BobC did not even know bout this when he sold me the B&G....

 

The problem is that most of the installers I have followed their work do not know this, and you need to get at the pilot's internal mode, unlock it with a code and the you can change a ton of very sensitive settings and one of them is the wind corrections on the ACP. it is night and day!

 

It is just disappointing, but to piss me off you would have to mess with my son....B&G is too irrelevant in my life to piss me off.

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I am not pissed off, I am sorry if I sound that way.

 

Perhaps it's only how I would feel myself if I was in your situation...

 

 

LeCanard has led me in the direction to at least check my Hydra processor before I ship anything to UK. I'll do that in a couple of weeks and get back.

 

Thanks for all input

Fredrik

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I'm starting to suspect that frejo has one of the first issues of the Wind board (402-10-001), probably ver 3A. Unfortunatly, the old Wind board isn't compatible with pilots. I promised to do a bit of skunkwork and try to upgrade the Wind board to a 402-10-005 with at least ver 4B. We're not talking h3000 here NewLeaf, but a mix of different generations of Hydra330/Hydra2/H2000. Hence the lack of SD features.

 

quack!!

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I'm starting to suspect that frejo has one of the first issues of the Wind board (402-10-001), probably ver 3A. Unfortunatly, the old Wind board isn't compatible with pilots. I promised to do a bit of skunkwork and try to upgrade the Wind board to a 402-10-005 with at least ver 4B. We're not talking h3000 here NewLeaf, but a mix of different generations of Hydra330/Hydra2/H2000. Hence the lack of SD features.

 

quack!!

 

I tried to change the wind board a couple of days ago. I had, as LC suspected, the older, smaller windboard running software 3D (as printed on the eprom). Problem now is that the new windboard is a little big thicker and it's not possible to get the processor box closed properly. When I try to close it, the depthboard stops working. Perhaps I assembled it wrong or perhaps the plastic "spacers" are to long? So I put the old board back in and now the "Magnified wind"-meter doesn't work as it should. I'm a little bit at loss here. I also suspect that the new windboard didn't drive the analog windmeters at all, but it was completely calm friday night so it wasn't all that clear. The meters blinked red at first though.

 

I will try out some different software versions tonight and see if there is any difference. I do have access to 9.3 on eproms. And the pilot practically won't work at all now.

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I changed the windboard and eproms to 9.3 on both the windboard and depthboard. I left the pilot on after that and it was running perfectly after 24 hours. So hopefully the pilot issue now is solved. Thanks to LC for leading me in this direction.

 

BUT, now the analogue meters won't work and the CAL keeps flashing on Depth. I have run all diagnostic tests I can but everything is supposed to be fine. But this probably is a subject for another thread...

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After replacing the eeproms, you'll need to re-enter the calibration values. Analogue meters can easily be set up too. Flashing light mean there is an alarm going off, prolly the depth calibration warning in this case.

Just got back from Nice, call me today and I'll guide you through it. ( I'll be out of office on an ECDIS installation tomorrow ).

 

/LC

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It is kind of embarrising but the only problem with the analogues was the fuse on the wind board. I also changed the software in the FFD to 9.0 and now it is possible to calibrate the depth.

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I have now done my first sea trials with the new board and all new software and the pliot seems to work fine. Thank you all for your input.

 

If I now only could get my Garmin connected properly to the Hydra system...

 

/frejo

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You will need an NMEA FFD or an additional Performance Processor for that.

 

/LC

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