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    • UnderDawg

      A Few Simple Rules   05/22/2017

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MidPack

J/88

2,231 posts in this topic

So I'm boatless and getting the itch to own again. If I won the lottery, I'd buy a J/111. The J/70 looks like a blast, but that's just too small and the warden won't deal with a bucket anymore (fair enough). So I need them to morph the two boats into a J/88. Wonder when they will update their offering in the 30-foot range?

 

The J/92 is pretty long in the tooth, and the 92s was a modest but worthwhile refresh. Want something at least 20 secs/mile faster...J/90 with a head would be fine.

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There is a 29/30 footer on the drawing board.

A carbon J29! No sprit, non-overlapping headsails, updated foils. IRC ~1.009 PHRF ~87

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There is a 29/30 footer on the drawing board.

A carbon J29! No sprit, non-overlapping headsails, updated foils. IRC ~1.009 PHRF ~87

 

There is definately discussions going on about it being a racer or RC.

 

And 5 or 6 digits.

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J33. 78-84 rater, nice interior.

Very good point, but I want something the warden and I (in our 50's) can reasonably double hand in all weather on all pts of sail (and I can singlehand), IMO that requires a sprit/asym. It would be really nice if it fit in a 30 foot slip too. If J/Boats builds a 29-30 foot J/111, we'll be among the first in line...

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I might be second in line...question is if they do a 30 foot version of the 111, does it need to have standing headroom (and thus is more R/C and more expensive) or do they go with 92s like cabin and no standing headroom (thus more racer..and cheaper). J/97 failed to gain traction as it was smaller/slower than a J/109, but as or more expensive than a couple year old 109. If they can bring it in under 6 figures they might have a winner, but that might be pretty tough to do...

 

I'd think if they tried to do a conventional pole boat (a la a J/29) today, it'd flop...and I wouldn't consider it. I want to reduce the number of crew I need to go racing. I could race my 109 with less crew (and less experienced crew) then I need on my 9.1...

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I might be second in line...question is if they do a 30 foot version of the 111, does it need to have standing headroom (and thus is more R/C and more expensive) or do they go with 92s like cabin and no standing headroom (thus more racer..and cheaper). J/97 failed to gain traction as it was smaller/slower than a J/109, but as or more expensive than a couple year old 109. If they can bring it in under 6 figures they might have a winner, but that might be pretty tough to do...

 

I'd think if they tried to do a conventional pole boat (a la a J/29) today, it'd flop...and I wouldn't consider it. I want to reduce the number of crew I need to go racing. I could race my 109 with less crew (and less experienced crew) then I need on my 9.1...

I do not understand the move towards strictly asyms in the new race boats, you add one more person on a sym vs asym boat.

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I like the looks of the J97- 31 ft, rates near 108. probably a little too cruisy for your liking though.

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I like the looks of the J97- 31 ft, rates near 108. probably a little too cruisy for your liking though.

 

From YRALIS:

 

J97

J 11.71 I 41.25 P 39.5 E13.00 LOA 31.53 LWL 26.6 Beam 11.00

Draft 6.3 Ballast 2,900 Lbs. Disp. 8,600 Lbs.

Max L.P. 110% & Asym 91 square meters

J 97 W/L 108

DIST 103

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We all have our own ideas for the ideal boat, no universal right answer. I don't care about standing headroom, we'll race and daysail with rare overnights. Must have a sprit/asym, we've had 3 J/Boats and we're sold on the setup for double/single handing (one of our musts). The J/97 is too cruisy, heavy, a tad slow and expensive for us - more creature comforts than we want/need - I'd buy a J/92 if 108 PHRF was our target. Again, we'd like a 29-30 footer along the lines of the J/70 & J/111. For now we keep our powder dry, hoping, while racing on OPB. YMMV

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Sounds like you want a GP 26 or West Coast Dart, built by J.

 

I'd go with a J/70 for now and then trade up when they build the boat you described.

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if you weren't wedding to J/Boats, the new Columbia 32 sounds almost like what you want, especially since a marine head is optional

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if you weren't wedding to J/Boats, the new Columbia 32 sounds almost like what you want, especially since a marine head is optional

Not "wedded" to J/Boats but we sure do trust them after 3 good experiences. Unfortunately, a builder/design has to achieve critical mass, and after the Columbia 30 I don't have confidence to be an "early adopter" and buy a Columbia 32. I wish them well, time will tell...

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Buy a J 100 and put a sprit on it - killer PHRF boat if you have enough spinnaker inventory -

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At 33 ft, you're talking more expensive then a sub 30 ftr....And with the 100 there is little chance of racing OD. A bigger J/70 - smaller J/111 offers the chance for an OD class to form around it....

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I might be second in line...question is if they do a 30 foot version of the 111, does it need to have standing headroom (and thus is more R/C and more expensive) or do they go with 92s like cabin and no standing headroom (thus more racer..and cheaper). J/97 failed to gain traction as it was smaller/slower than a J/109, but as or more expensive than a couple year old 109. If they can bring it in under 6 figures they might have a winner, but that might be pretty tough to do...

 

I'd think if they tried to do a conventional pole boat (a la a J/29) today, it'd flop...and I wouldn't consider it. I want to reduce the number of crew I need to go racing. I could race my 109 with less crew (and less experienced crew) then I need on my 9.1...

I do not understand the move towards strictly asyms in the new race boats, you add one more person on a sym vs asym boat.

 

it's not the quantity, it's the quality. *That* can be the deal breaker. Besides, with the newer designs an asym isn't the handicap on a w/l it once was. Not to mention that you don't see too many deathrolls in asym boats - they just don't sail those kinds of angles, so the boats are relatively safer in a lot of ways.

 

Yep, its the quality (experience level) of the crew you need. You can "get away" with a less experienced crew (newer folks, family, etc) and suffer less crew related errors/issues and still get around the course successfully. Of course, a talented crew will still show...But it is ironic that I need more folks, and more experienced folks at that to race my current 30 footer, than I needed to race my previous J/109 to be equally effective (bottom of upper third of class to mid-pack in local phrf racing...)

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Buy a J 100 and put a sprit on it - killer PHRF boat if you have enough spinnaker inventory -

Already owned a J/100, though wo a sprit (only 1 made?). Very nice boat, but we'd like a sprit boat faster than a J/100 at 30 feet or less - that me and the warden can still easily double hand.

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I might be second in line...question is if they do a 30 foot version of the 111, does it need to have standing headroom (and thus is more R/C and more expensive) or do they go with 92s like cabin and no standing headroom (thus more racer..and cheaper). J/97 failed to gain traction as it was smaller/slower than a J/109, but as or more expensive than a couple year old 109. If they can bring it in under 6 figures they might have a winner, but that might be pretty tough to do...

 

I'd think if they tried to do a conventional pole boat (a la a J/29) today, it'd flop...and I wouldn't consider it. I want to reduce the number of crew I need to go racing. I could race my 109 with less crew (and less experienced crew) then I need on my 9.1...

I do not understand the move towards strictly asyms in the new race boats, you add one more person on a sym vs asym boat.

 

it's not the quantity, it's the quality. *That* can be the deal breaker. Besides, with the newer designs an asym isn't the handicap on a w/l it once was. Not to mention that you don't see too many deathrolls in asym boats - they just don't sail those kinds of angles, so the boats are relatively safer in a lot of ways.

 

Yep, its the quality (experience level) of the crew you need. You can "get away" with a less experienced crew (newer folks, family, etc) and suffer less crew related errors/issues and still get around the course successfully. Of course, a talented crew will still show...But it is ironic that I need more folks, and more experienced folks at that to race my current 30 footer, than I needed to race my previous J/109 to be equally effective (bottom of upper third of class to mid-pack in local phrf racing...)

 

yeah, we had 7 people on a J/120 this past weekend (only 5 of whom have ever been really on the boat), and we mostly held our own. Put that size crew on a J/35 and we would have been toast.

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C&C 101 looks nice, but again, that's 33' and has the "early adopter" thing

 

Andrews 28? http://www.andrewsyacht.com/deshom28.htm

"Early adopter" issue with A28 as well no? How many have been sold? I remember reading about it when it first came out several years ago, and thinking/hoping it would do well. ???

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yeah, its low. like 16+ hulls sold or so. looks like a sweet boat though.

 

thanks for this thread. I'm having an awesome time spending other people's money. ;)

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Get an FT10 until they build what you're looking for. Not very cruisy but a great daysailor and certainly quick around the cans. We had a blast at the recent Verve Cup with a 6 boat fleet. I agree that the Andrews 28 looks great but it certainly won't offer any 1 design probability anytime soon.

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So, you want a new design but it must have critical mass? Is this because you want to race one design? And, how much is critical mass?

 

When has the last new design of around this size hit critical mass? What boat was that?

( Notice I said "of around this size" keeps the V-Boat-Boys a bay. )

 

-jim lee

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So, you want a new design but it must have critical mass? Is this because you want to race one design? And, how much is critical mass?

 

When has the last new design of around this size hit critical mass? What boat was that?

( Notice I said "of around this size" keeps the V-Boat-Boys a bay. )

 

-jim lee

 

That's always the challenge isn't it. Last boats in the US might be the Bene 36.7 and J/109. But even now the 109 is at best a regional OD. Meaning there are a half dozen or so active OD fleets and they get from 10 to maybe 20 at a national championship. But they never managed on OD event on the Ches Bay in the 4 years I raced mine..(2003-2006). I'd say you need to get to 300 or so hulls to have a reasonably robust OD class (nationwide). But if you can get a half dozen or so at your YC, etc as early adopters, you can at least race OD locally....The reality is it takes a couple years to build to a robust OD class, and the guys buying in the first couple years are playing the odds. So you have to decide you like the boat as a handicap racer to buy early....

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So, you want a new design but it must have critical mass? Is this because you want to race one design? And, how much is critical mass?

 

When has the last new design of around this size hit critical mass? What boat was that?

( Notice I said "of around this size" keeps the V-Boat-Boys a bay. )

 

-jim lee

Actually I'm more interested in critical mass for resale than OD racing. That would be nice but like you say, not sure when it will happen again - though the J/70 may have a shot with 200 orders reported(?).

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So, you want a new design but it must have critical mass? Is this because you want to race one design? And, how much is critical mass?

 

When has the last new design of around this size hit critical mass? What boat was that?

( Notice I said "of around this size" keeps the V-Boat-Boys a bay. )

 

-jim lee

Actually I'm more interested in critical mass for resale than OD racing. That would be nice but like you say, not sure when it will happen again - though the J/70 may have a shot with 200 orders reported(?).

 

Well the J/70 is too small and who knows if it will get critical mass or not. You want larger, critical mass and room for a portable head. What's wrong with the J/80?

 

-jim lee

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Only four Andrews 28s were built, despite being awesome boats by all accounts. Lots of factors: price, timing, marketing, etc. I'd love one, but at $100k for a used one, it's still too pricey.

 

I've considered the j/92, but agree it needs updating. A 30 foot version of a J/111 would be nice. Something with a high ballast/displacement ratio to avoid needing a ton of crew. As mentioned before, a J/90 with a head and a slight interior...

 

 

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Only four Andrews 28s were built, despite being awesome boats by all accounts. Lots of factors: price, timing, marketing, etc. I'd love one, but at $100k for a used one, it's still too pricey.

 

I've considered the j/92, but agree it needs updating. A 30 foot version of a J/111 would be nice. Something with a high ballast/displacement ratio to avoid needing a ton of crew. As mentioned before, a J/90 with a head and a slight interior...

What exactly are you looking for in a ~30 footer for under 100k? Get youself back into reality. The J92 is a great all around boat it rates 108-114 because it has been sailed poorly, there are not a whole bunch of them out there. Johnstone has stated he believes the boat should rate in the mid-90's, all the polars and VPP back that up. For a 30 footer that is easy to handle, a great light and heavy air performer, I ask again WTF are you after? Do you want a twitchy 30 footer like a Mumm or Melges?

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How would you update a J/92? (Bias warning - I've owned and raced one for nine years.)

 

It's pre-scrimp so the only way to lighten it up is to carbonize it, but the J/92S with conventional construction cost close to $150,000 and you don't want to pay that much. I suppose you could get rid of the inboard but a lot of people want that in a 30 footer.

 

Update the foils? They did that in the 92S. Non-overlappers and masthead kite? Ditto.

 

You guys want a 3,500# 30 footer that rates like a J/105 and costs less than $100,000. Good luck w/that.

 

You can buy my J/92 from my estate. The boat is damn near perfect.

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How would you update a J/92? (Bias warning - I've owned and raced one for nine years.)

 

It's pre-scrimp so the only way to lighten it up is to carbonize it, but the J/92S with conventional construction cost close to $150,000 and you don't want to pay that much. I suppose you could get rid of the inboard but a lot of people want that in a 30 footer.

 

Update the foils? They did that in the 92S. Non-overlappers and masthead kite? Ditto.

 

You guys want a 3,500# 30 footer that rates like a J/105 and costs less than $100,000. Good luck w/that.

 

You can buy my J/92 from my estate. The boat is damn near perfect.

 

need to get it to around 1500kgs, so maybe remove some of the interior (and weight) in favour of a sail locker you could shelter in.....low freeboard and no protruding coach roof......maybe a hatch under cockpit floor for an outboard, so no inboard....a taller carbon rig.....a thinner deeper lighter keel (maybe lifting?).......taller sail plan with even bigger kite than 92S (SA/D 0f 29/30)......a bang up to date hull shape for less wetted surface area, maximised WL and more planing potential, with a DLR of 110 or less.

 

Have I just described a Melges 32 or Soto 30?

 

will it be versatile enough and sufficiently family friendly for J boats?

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Only four Andrews 28s were built, despite being awesome boats by all accounts. Lots of factors: price, timing, marketing, etc. I'd love one, but at $100k for a used one, it's still too pricey.

 

I've considered the j/92, but agree it needs updating. A 30 foot version of a J/111 would be nice. Something with a high ballast/displacement ratio to avoid needing a ton of crew. As mentioned before, a J/90 with a head and a slight interior...

What exactly are you looking for in a ~30 footer for under 100k? Get youself back into reality. The J92 is a great all around boat it rates 108-114 because it has been sailed poorly, there are not a whole bunch of them out there. Johnstone has stated he believes the boat should rate in the mid-90's, all the polars and VPP back that up. For a 30 footer that is easy to handle, a great light and heavy air performer, I ask again WTF are you after? Do you want a twitchy 30 footer like a Mumm or Melges?

 

Concur the 92 is a great boat. But for whatever reason, neither it, nor the 92s achieved critical mass to really have an OD class form. I've been pushing a friend towards the 92s for some time...having said that, if you had a boat that was 30 or less, with a retractable keel to make trailering easy, and an outboard a la most J-29s because it makes the boat easier to trailer , it makes it lighter, and it is cheaper than an inboard, would that maybe be the formula? I don't know, just asking if that might be the critical difference...

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So you need to take a demo ride on a J/70.

You might like it.

Well the J/70 is too small and who knows if it will get critical mass or not. You want larger, critical mass and room for a portable head. What's wrong with the J/80?

I'm thinking about doing a demo sail and I know I'd like the J/70 (loved our J/80), but the warden won't agree to a bucket (or a porta-potti) again and she's been a good sport re: sailing for over 20 years, so there's no way I can buy one...no marine head is a show stopper for her.

 

Who knows I may end up with a J/92-92s or nothing. I have to believe J/Boats will come out with a faster 29-30 footer, then it will come down to what price point...

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The poster to talk to is U20 Guy. I really think he has the right idea and I am seeing it copied in the south east.

 

Buy a nice used cruising sailboat or powerboat that the previous owner has recently put a ton or at least a good deal of work/money into it. ( Get the work for pennies on the dollar)

 

Then go buy that nice one design daysailor / racer that you can own for a very long time. It is dirt cheap to keep, store and sail.

 

Don't compromise.

 

Check out a combination of a Grand Banks 32 and IF the J70 is going to be one design in your area buy it.

 

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listing/boatMergedDetails.jsp?boat_id=1781349&ybw=&units=Feet&currency=USD&access=Public&listing_id=12544&url=

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Exactly what we do. Family R/V cruiser (J/35), and parked next door the afternoon play toy (Dart). Works well.

 

-jim lee

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WOWZA. If I wanted to pay for two slips, two winter haulout and storage, two insurance etc. - I'd rather just buy a J/111. I got out of boating due to the operating costs mostly (it was crazy IMO), I'm not as concerned with the boat purchase price. I can get a chunk of that back, the operating costs are gone forever. And the sporty still wouldn't have a head for the warden, doesn't help to have one on the "other boat." YMMV

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Is a crapper an available option on the J70 ???

As long as she doesn't have to dump it.

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MidPack - Being a J/boat guy, I'm sure you've considered this, but other than the extra 4.5' you don't want, it seems the J/105 ticks all the boxes. Not exactly cheap to buy, but operating costs can be pretty reasonable for that size boat. Standing headroom is the only recurring annoyance, but we knew that going in. We've been able to buy very inexpensive used sails for ocean racing and even some used class sails as we work on building our one-design inventory. Despite the Anarchy disdain for the boat (or anything successful...), we are impressed with the boat in many ways. We love our 105

 

Is it the extra length or something else keeping you away from the 105?

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MidPack - Being a J/boat guy, I'm sure you've considered this, but other than the extra 4.5' you don't want, it seems the J/105 ticks all the boxes. Not exactly cheap to buy, but operating costs can be pretty reasonable for that size boat. Standing headroom is the only recurring annoyance, but we knew that going in. We've been able to buy very inexpensive used sails for ocean racing and even some used class sails as we work on building our one-design inventory. Despite the Anarchy disdain for the boat (or anything successful...), we are impressed with the boat in many ways. We love our 105

 

Is it the extra length or something else keeping you away from the 105?

Not out of the question, but we've already owned a J/105 (we liked ours too) along with several other J/Boats. Just intrigued by the thought of a 29-30 foot J/111-J/70 since I can't justify the initial purchase or operating expense of a J/111...

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I second midpack's thought. Also, for me an head and inboard are essential too. However, as for the performance ratios (SAD, DLR), I am note sure that JBoats should necessarily push them to be more extreme than those of J92/J92S : J/70 is much faster than a J/22 (40 sec / mile ?) while retaining an almost equal SAD and a slightly lighter DLR

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How would you update a J/92? (Bias warning - I've owned and raced one for nine years.)

 

It's pre-scrimp so the only way to lighten it up is to carbonize it, but the J/92S with conventional construction cost close to $150,000 and you don't want to pay that much. I suppose you could get rid of the inboard but a lot of people want that in a 30 footer.

 

Update the foils? They did that in the 92S. Non-overlappers and masthead kite? Ditto.

 

You guys want a 3,500# 30 footer that rates like a J/105 and costs less than $100,000. Good luck w/that.

 

You can buy my J/92 from my estate. The boat is damn near perfect.

 

is it for sale?? we're in the market for a 92..

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How would you update a J/92? (Bias warning - I've owned and raced one for nine years.)

 

It's pre-scrimp so the only way to lighten it up is to carbonize it, but the J/92S with conventional construction cost close to $150,000 and you don't want to pay that much. I suppose you could get rid of the inboard but a lot of people want that in a 30 footer.

 

Update the foils? They did that in the 92S. Non-overlappers and masthead kite? Ditto.

 

You guys want a 3,500# 30 footer that rates like a J/105 and costs less than $100,000. Good luck w/that.

 

You can buy my J/92 from my estate. The boat is damn near perfect.

 

is it for sale?? we're in the market for a 92..

 

 

I assume by from his "estate", he means from "his cold dead hands". :P

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I assume by from his "estate", he means from "his cold dead hands". :P

 

Yes, which you'll have to pry off the tiller extension. I think about a "cruisier" J now and then, especially one I could stand up in, but the 92 sails so well I quickly come back to my senses. After about 10,000 ocean miles, mostly single-handed, this boat has become an extension of my arms or something.

 

I realize many on this site favor the ultra-lights with huge sailplans and crews crammed on the back porch downwind so the boat will plane. But I've come back under the Gate at 17 knots with my son asleep down below, hit almost 19 a couple of times surfing down the coast, and won the single-handed season championship (last year) when many of the races had light air. The boat does everything I need it to do.

 

I think the only reason more 92's weren't sold is they came on the market at the same time as the J/105. Buyers favored the wheel and sit-in cockpit. As I've written elsewhere, I would not trade my 92 even-across for a 105.

 

One advantage to a lighter 29/30 footer (especially if it had a lift-keel) would be dry-sailing. I was able to dry-sail my 92 for 3-4 years but it required a 3-ton hoist, and self-use yards with those are hard to find.

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we're in the market for a 92..

 

Good luck. The last two sold locally never appeared in the listings. One sold in a week and the other in about two weeks, and is being shipped cross-country.

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How would you update a J/92? (Bias warning - I've owned and raced one for nine years.)

 

It's pre-scrimp so the only way to lighten it up is to carbonize it, but the J/92S with conventional construction cost close to $150,000 and you don't want to pay that much. I suppose you could get rid of the inboard but a lot of people want that in a 30 footer.

 

Update the foils? They did that in the 92S. Non-overlappers and masthead kite? Ditto.

 

You guys want a 3,500# 30 footer that rates like a J/105 and costs less than $100,000. Good luck w/that.

 

You can buy my J/92 from my estate. The boat is damn near perfect.

 

is it for sale?? we're in the market for a 92..

Dacapo:

 

J92

 

J92S

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sleep it's crew, planing in 16 knts wind , pop in the back garden, maybe a kettle and a shitter ....doesn't need to have carbon actually.

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How would you update a J/92? (Bias warning - I've owned and raced one for nine years.)

 

It's pre-scrimp so the only way to lighten it up is to carbonize it, but the J/92S with conventional construction cost close to $150,000 and you don't want to pay that much. I suppose you could get rid of the inboard but a lot of people want that in a 30 footer.

 

Update the foils? They did that in the 92S. Non-overlappers and masthead kite? Ditto.

 

You guys want a 3,500# 30 footer that rates like a J/105 and costs less than $100,000. Good luck w/that.

 

You can buy my J/92 from my estate. The boat is damn near perfect.

 

is it for sale?? we're in the market for a 92..

92s for sale with Toronto Broker on Lake Ontario, and quite a few in Europe...

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i own a 92s - race against a 97 and have sailed a dozen times on a melges 20...

launch a melges (or a j70) is a freaking hassle - screw that...no interest

 

j92s is a nice boat for me and my crew - we suck, race three up a lot, have tons of fun

and the platform is perfect for where we are in learning curve - hard to get into trouble

with that much bow in a blow - then again we rarely see winds above 15 in lis and

probably thats ok with us for now...

 

I am not sure its faster than a 92 (92 guys don't think it can be in winds below say 12)...

good boat - really fun ...97 is awesome and i would own one if it ticked the boxes -

which it doesnt right now ...

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Since the 97 rates about the same as your 92S, how do they compare in boat speed in various conditions?

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There's a 97 on Long Island Sound? I thought the only one in the US is on the Lakes as a cruiser...

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So you need to take a demo ride on a J/70.

You might like it.

Well the J/70 is too small and who knows if it will get critical mass or not. You want larger, critical mass and room for a portable head. What's wrong with the J/80?

I'm thinking about doing a demo sail and I know I'd like the J/70 (loved our J/80), but the warden won't agree to a bucket (or a porta-potti) again and she's been a good sport re: sailing for over 20 years, so there's no way I can buy one...no marine head is a show stopper for her.

 

Who knows I may end up with a J/92-92s or nothing. I have to believe J/Boats will come out with a faster 29-30 footer, then it will come down to what price point...

 

Let the "Warden" service the marine shitter/holding tank and see how quick she'll be happy with the porta potti. Unless you use it a lot a marine toilet, holding tank etc are way more trouble than they're worth for a lady piss or two a month. Plus how's that supposed to work with your desire for something lighter and faster than a J-92? J-Boats seem to be going more IRC friendly and at this size hi-po doesn't work. I doubt they'll try something highly performance oriented at this size because those kind of boats don't sell to the regular J clientelle or in general to anyone else. Sailed a J92 a couple years back as part of a pick crew in the Round the Island (of Wight) race and we beat a couple of friends of mine on a J97 handily. Despite the age I think it's a pretty nice boat. Yeah it could be lighter and more sporty but what you can get them for on the used market it's hard to beat. J97 is too 109ish

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2 J97s were sold by McMichael Yacht Brokers this summer and there will be another one at the Newport Show next week, that I think is J Boats Stock/Demo boat, that just arrived this week.

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What do you know. Something of a second wind for a boat I always really like. Glad to hear there have been a couple more sold. I hope that trend continues.

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Since the 97 rates about the same as your 92S, how do they compare in boat speed in various conditions?

 

i am not really qualified to respond ha....92 and 92s hull shape may slow a bit in a chop and maybe 97 less so otherwise...

i dunno looks stiffer overall ...

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Had a good talk with the J/Boats folks at Annapolis. I'm sworn to secrecy, but what I heard was very encouraging - you'll have to read between the lines from there...

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midpack - what can you share with us - I'm a bit too far away from Annapolis (living in Italy :) )

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I had a similar conversation with the J folks at the Annapolis Boat Show and they didn't swear me to secrecy. I told them I was looking hard at a J/92S and the J/70 - Very similar thoughts to what started this thread. The answer was that there was something on the drawing board (J/88 or J/93). The boat was described as an updated J/92S and they are hoping for under $100K with OD racing in their mind. They weren't big on details nor did they talk about when to expect it, but I know of at least another guy that had a similar conversation with them. Maybe they were just floating the idea out there to see how people reacted, but I got the distinct impression they are serious.

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I own a 92S in New Orleans LA. The head was a selling point for us, three years in, we have not let anyone use it yet. :-) Last year we were boat of the year in our Wed nite series, 5 - 5 race series consisting of 50+ boats. This year we are in a great position to repeat as boat of the year. We havn't been able to get the same results in true WL racing .........yet.

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By a country mile the best all round boat I've owned/raced has been the 92 (of M24/M20/SB3/J80/J105/J109)

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By a country mile the best all round boat I've owned/raced has been the 92 (of M24/M20/SB3/J80/J105/J109)
By no means arguing with you, but why? Especially compared to the J's you've owned/raced since I know those boats as well...

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Can't speak for Jambalaya, but; the first four boats listed (M24/M20/SB3/J80), are fun, fast sailing boats with no real interior to speak of for storing people or stuff. The 105 has comparable space below decks and is just as elegant (sarcasm), the 92 has a higher SA/Disp ratio and will respond to proper sail trim faster. The 109 has a real interior, sails well but is heavy; again the SA/Disp ratio is less and the 92 will again reward proper sail trim accordingly. IMO, the 92 or 92s is a boat that has space below for people or things, and is responsive and fun to sail, ie ALL AROUND. Only my opinion, different boats for different applications, for my application the 92S fits the bill.

s

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I guess I'm having trouble as to why the 92s doesn't work for Midpack. It seems to tick all the boxes except the 20 secs per mile faster part. I'm sure a fathead main, PBO rigging and a carbon stick would get you 12 seconds, at least with the rating board.

 

IMO the j/90 flopped because it was too high powered and it didn't have a head. With the 125, it seems pure race boats over 26 feet haven't done well for J in the last 20 years.

 

The J/97 flopped in the US because 1) its friggin ugly and has weird proportions and 2) I don't think US buyers give a rats ass about IRC rating in this size range.

 

I also don't think its possible to design a 30' racer/cruiser with standing headroom and have it look good. The C&C 101 and First 10R look good, but they're 33'. That 3 feet seems to make a lot of difference.

 

So what would a refresh of the 92s be other than adding the cool 108/111 windows? How would J get 20 seconds a mile in a shorter (J/88), taller (to get headroom) boat w/o adding too much HP? With the exception of the 70 vs the 22, it seems all the updated models J Boats come out with don't really get a whole lot faster.

 

I don't know how many 92s' have been built but I'm assuming its still in the line because its selling.

 

With all that, I'm assuming yacht designers know what they're doing and the rumors of a new model in this size range sound promising but Midpack's requirements seem to be too specific. I have a feeing he might be dissappointed.

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I guess I'm having trouble as to why the 92s doesn't work for Midpack. It seems to tick all the boxes except the 20 secs per mile faster part. A very high priority I'm sure a fathead main that would be the mother of all backstay flickers, PBO rigging and a carbon stick $$$would get you 12 seconds, at least with the rating board. Why would I see how much money I can pour into a 20 year old design? And making the boat a unsellable orphan.

 

IMO the j/90 flopped because it was too high powered and it didn't have a head. With the 125, it seems pure race boats over 26 feet haven't done well for J in the last 20 years.

 

The J/97 flopped in the US because 1) its friggin ugly and has weird proportions and 2) I don't think US buyers give a rats ass about IRC rating in this size range.

 

I also don't think its possible to design a 30' racer/cruiser with standing headroom and have it look good. I never said anything about headroom... The C&C 101 and First 10R look good, but they're 33'. That 3 feet seems to make a lot of difference.

 

So what would a refresh of the 92s be other than adding the cool 108/111 windows? How would J get 20 seconds a mile in a shorter (J/88), taller (to get headroom) boat w/o adding too much HP? With the exception of the 70 vs the 22, it seems all the updated models J Boats come out with don't really get a whole lot faster. The J/111 disproves that, compare to the J/109, J/110 for example.

 

I don't know how many 92s' have been built but I'm assuming its still in the line because its selling.

 

With all that, I'm assuming yacht designers know what they're doing and the rumors of a new model in this size range sound promising but Midpack's requirements seem to be too specific. I have a feeing he might be dissappointed. Maybe, but I suspect otherwise, see post #63...

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Reading between the lines of 012345's post above, I'm guessing a lighter-weight boat (outboard?) with lifting keel and more modern rigging like we see on the J/70, aimed squarely at OD racing and built by the new group in RI. If I'm right, that's fine but that's a different boat than the 92.

 

Awhile back, Jeff J told me the only thing holding back the 92S was the exchange rate and shipping cost from Europe. All the 92S's are made over there.

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How would you update a J/92? (Bias warning - I've owned and raced one for nine years.)

 

It's pre-scrimp so the only way to lighten it up is to carbonize it, but the J/92S with conventional construction cost close to $150,000 and you don't want to pay that much. I suppose you could get rid of the inboard but a lot of people want that in a 30 footer.

 

Update the foils? They did that in the 92S. Non-overlappers and masthead kite? Ditto.

 

You guys want a 3,500# 30 footer that rates like a J/105 and costs less than $100,000. Good luck w/that.

 

You can buy my J/92 from my estate. The boat is damn near perfect.

 

is it for sale?? we're in the market for a 92..

Dacapo:

 

J92

 

J92S

 

TY Will....we found one....trading down from the 105 to something with a bit more light air capabilities and a better handicap number ( watch YRALIS knock it down to 96 like to 105 as soon as we get it...) not a completely done deal yet hope within a few weeks

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What about the fixed full fin keel version of the J/95?

What's the draft on the fixed keel version?

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I think the fixed keel on J-95 is 5'6". Fairly expensive boat though and the retractable version rates around 108.

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I guess I'm having trouble as to why the 92s doesn't work for Midpack. It seems to tick all the boxes except the 20 secs per mile faster part. A very high priority I'm sure a fathead main that would be the mother of all backstay flickers, PBO rigging and a carbon stick $$$would get you 12 seconds, at least with the rating board. Why would I see how much money I can pour into a 20 year old design? And making the boat a unsellable orphan.

 

IMO the j/90 flopped because it was too high powered and it didn't have a head. With the 125, it seems pure race boats over 26 feet haven't done well for J in the last 20 years.

 

The J/97 flopped in the US because 1) its friggin ugly and has weird proportions and 2) I don't think US buyers give a rats ass about IRC rating in this size range.

 

I also don't think its possible to design a 30' racer/cruiser with standing headroom and have it look good. I never said anything about headroom... The C&C 101 and First 10R look good, but they're 33'. That 3 feet seems to make a lot of difference.

 

So what would a refresh of the 92s be other than adding the cool 108/111 windows? How would J get 20 seconds a mile in a shorter (J/88), taller (to get headroom) boat w/o adding too much HP? With the exception of the 70 vs the 22, it seems all the updated models J Boats come out with don't really get a whole lot faster. The J/111 disproves that, compare to the J/109, J/110 for example.

 

I don't know how many 92s' have been built but I'm assuming its still in the line because its selling.

 

With all that, I'm assuming yacht designers know what they're doing and the rumors of a new model in this size range sound promising but Midpack's requirements seem to be too specific. I have a feeing he might be dissappointed. Maybe, but I suspect otherwise, see post #63...

 

Thanks for answering those points. Somewhere in the thread I thought I saw headroom addresses. I see the 110-109-111 progression now for sure, but each boats' target market seemed to have changed as well, for the better as I see it.

 

To revisit the 92s configuration, a used 92s ca be picked up for $75-$95k. Throw $30k into carbon mast/PBO rigging/mainsail mods and you're still well below the $150k target for the rumor'ed new J Boat. SInce there's no 92s OD racing anyway, I don't see your mods orphaning the boat but maybe even increasing its value among those who may have passed over the 92s for your same reasons.

 

If its a new boat you're after, then I suppose you'll need to wait the 1-3 years for J boats to welcome their new model. My dad has never purchased a boat for that reason. He's really afraid of a used boat and "someone else's pubic hair in the bildge" as he says. He could never afford the new boat he wanted, so now he has horses. Shovels shit all day. Go figure.

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IMO the fixed keel version of the J/95 could become a terrific OD performance racer with some slight alterations in the rig. Yes, it is expensive, but that is "the J value factor" that distinguishes J boats from other manufacturers. The 95 and 111 are quite similar in cockpit configuration and deck layout and the fact that they have inboards, standard heads, and wheel steering. You could easily envision a 33ft OD hybrid version of these designs with 5'6" headroom which would retain a similar design profile, but going in the other direction with an under 30ft design retaining a similar pleasing design profile would really bring you back to an "enlarged J 70". To date, 36 + J 95's have been sold, but only a few with fixed keels. IMO J boats should tweak the fixed keel version and market it as an OD design with great potential.

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"The J/97 flopped in the US because 1) its friggin ugly and has weird proportions and 2) I don't think US buyers give a rats ass about IRC rating in this size range. "

Swimsailor - Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. 97 may not be the pertiest boat ever to come off the design table, but it is far from Ugly. I just came from Annapolis Boat show and base price of a 97 and a 95 are the same. No way would the admiral buy into that kind of money for a 95 when you dont even get an enclosed head let alone standing headroom. There was quite a buzz around the J boats display and it wasnt all about the 70. I donn't know enough about IRC to comment on it, but the 97 looks like it would perform well in PHRF, and make a speedy cruiser at the same time. Andrews 28 has been mentioned a few times around various J threads. It is a boat that tics a lot of peoples boxes, but it is hardly a sleek looking racer.

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To revisit the 92s configuration, a used 92s ca be picked up for $75-$95k. Throw $30k into carbon mast/PBO rigging/mainsail mods and you're still well below the $150k target for the rumor'ed new J Boat. SInce there's no 92s OD racing anyway, I don't see your mods orphaning the boat but maybe even increasing its value among those who may have passed over the 92s for your same reasons.
Except...
I had a similar conversation with the J folks at the Annapolis Boat Show and they didn't swear me to secrecy. I told them I was looking hard at a J/92S and the J/70 - Very similar thoughts to what started this thread. The answer was that there was something on the drawing board (J/88 or J/93). The boat was described as an updated J/92S and they are hoping for under $100K with OD racing in their mind. They weren't big on details nor did they talk about when to expect it, but I know of at least another guy that had a similar conversation with them. Maybe they were just floating the idea out there to see how people reacted, but I got the distinct impression they are serious.

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IMO the fixed keel version of the J/95 could become a terrific OD performance racer with some slight alterations in the rig. Yes, it is expensive, but that is "the J value factor" that distinguishes J boats from other manufacturers. The 95 and 111 are quite similar in cockpit configuration and deck layout and the fact that they have inboards, standard heads, and wheel steering. You could easily envision a 33ft OD hybrid version of these designs with 5'6" headroom which would retain a similar design profile, but going in the other direction with an under 30ft design retaining a similar pleasing design profile would really bring you back to an "enlarged J 70". To date, 36 + J 95's have been sold, but only a few with fixed keels. IMO J boats should tweak the fixed keel version and market it as an OD design with great potential.

That's very interesting as the centerboard adds a lot of cost, and at over $200K the J/95 is a non-starter for me. I didn't realize there was a fixed keel J/95 but now I see there is (thanks Operator). However the pic shows a fixed keel but no sprit??? One step forward and one step back! I noticed the J/95 at the Annapolis show had no sprit also, which surprised me. Presumably a fixed keel and sprit would be an option, but I'm waiting until we know more about the "J/88" if it materializes...

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Sprit is an option on the J/95. First you opt for the "prep package" and they install the tube w/cap, then you opt for the "spinnaker package" and you get the sprit and all the other spinny gear.

 

I like the boat for its target market - folks with a shallow water dock behind their McMansion. The twin rudders work for that and I'm sure the wheel makes a cleaner linkage for them. But for the rest of us, no way would I want a wheel in a 31 foot J/Boat.

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"The J/97 flopped in the US because 1) its friggin ugly and has weird proportions and 2) I don't think US buyers give a rats ass about IRC rating in this size range. "

Swimsailor - Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. 97 may not be the pertiest boat ever to come off the design table, but it is far from Ugly. I just came from Annapolis Boat show and base price of a 97 and a 95 are the same. No way would the admiral buy into that kind of money for a 95 when you dont even get an enclosed head let alone standing headroom. There was quite a buzz around the J boats display and it wasnt all about the 70. I donn't know enough about IRC to comment on it, but the 97 looks like it would perform well in PHRF, and make a speedy cruiser at the same time. Andrews 28 has been mentioned a few times around various J threads. It is a boat that tics a lot of peoples boxes, but it is hardly a sleek looking racer.

 

The J/97 didn't flop in the US. Until recently it wasn't marketed in the US. Like the 92S, it costs too much because of exchange rates and shipping from J/Europe. I wonder if the RI builder is being considered to build it here.

 

As posted above (re the J/95) I like the tiller on the 97. I also like the nav station and aft head, and it has a sprit. It's a better-looking boat than the J/32 it replaces (I can say that because Alan designed both boats.) It's a bit heavy but IRC has obviously dialed that in - we'll see how it does under PHRF.

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For the 97, I would consider less than 5 boats sold a flop.

 

For the new 88/93, I would be very impressed (shocked, really) if they met the $100k target. But if they get there with the 111 treaments you desire (which again would be awesome) then I think we all agree it would be a winner.

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They've sold a lot more than five J/97's. Hate to break it to you but the US is not the center of the sailing universe.

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They've sold a lot more than five J/97's. Hate to break it to you but the US is not the center of the sailing universe.

 

I completely understand the US is not the center of the sailing universe, hence my comment referring to the US. "The J/97 flopped in the US because 1) its friggin ugly and has weird proportions and 2) I don't think US buyers give a rats ass about IRC rating in this size range. "

 

4 boats sold stateside (at least according to this thread). You may disagree with not selling in the US as meaningless, and to JBoats that may be the case, as the boat is built in Europe. But tough to argue that US boat buyers don't want a 97.

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Beauty being in the eye of the beholder, I think the 97 is pretty good looking, all things considered. Name me another 31.5 foot boat with standing headroom that looks any better...

 

I think the issue in the US is largely 2 things. 1: Sub 35 foot racer/cruisers haven't sold well for the last 10 years plus. Not sure why, but that's just what appears to be happening. 2: Price. The 97 was relatively pricey when introduced, and because its built in Europe, price is driven by exchange rates. They dipped for a while and made the 97 look attractive for a while, now they are headed up again, making the 97 expensive again.

 

This is compounded by the fact that IRC racing in general and IRC racing below 35 ft in particular isn't big here in the US. I think the 97 would be a great PHRF boat where its breezy, but with its relatively small sail area it might suffer in classic light air venues like LIS or Ches Bay...Maybe a US version with a taller rig/bigger chute (i.e. not IRC optimized) might be more attractive.

 

But I think if J could do a 30 version of a J/70 with a J/95 like cabin profile and a J/111 style interior (with a head) for near 100k, they'd have a boat that might do pretty well.

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I race on a retractable keel J95. IMHO it points like a barge. How about thinking J80. 26ft, sprit, good phrf rating.

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j97 is pretty good looking in the water and I thought it'd suffer in light airs too but it seems to go pretty good to me. bot a 92s this year and like it - i wish there were things that were different but its a really fun boat and perfect for DH or similar -

 

lifting keel? NO

 

nothing kills boating fun more than a lifting keel for me....its just a huge stupid pain in the ass imo. all the stuff above for 100k? yeah ummm i guess that would be a winner - and pretty damn disposable too?

 

c and c 101 turned out better than i thought - i kinda want one of those too...

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j97 is pretty good looking in the water and I thought it'd suffer in light airs too but it seems to go pretty good to me. bot a 92s this year and like it - i wish there were things that were different but its a really fun boat and perfect for DH or similar -

 

lifting keel? NO

 

nothing kills boating fun more than a lifting keel for me....its just a huge stupid pain in the ass imo. all the stuff above for 100k? yeah ummm i guess that would be a winner - and pretty damn disposable too?

 

c and c 101 turned out better than i thought - i kinda want one of those too...

 

I agree on the lifting keel. We launched j/24's and j/80's every weekend from the ramp without difficulty. We always seemed to be in and out faster than the Ultimate 20 with him having to hoist the keel, take the rudder off, etc.

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At your ramp it might work fine, but I'm willing to bet there are a bunch of ramps where you just can't ramp launch your J/24 or J/80...as the ramp just isn't long enough. Not to mention trailering a boat that is standing up on its 4.5 ft keel is a bunch harder, and needs a beefier tow vehicle than one that sits down low on the trailer.

 

Its all a series of compromises. I'm not saying fixed keel is bad and lifting keel is the only way to go. But there are advantages to having the keel lift in some instances....

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Just for my own comparison, what price does a new J/92s start at? I'd rather not bug a dealer for the info.

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the 30' range is no man's land in the boat building industry. I don't think anyone who likes making money would consider making a 30' boat. These days, no one wants a 30 foot boat. Since the mid '80's the market has polorized to the Mid 20's and mid 30's leaving 30' behind. its just too big for some and not big enough for others. I'd take a good look at whats on the used market and go with that.

 

I have sailed against an Andrews 28 and it looks cool but I think its because it looks a little off. the freeboard is way too high for a boat that size. Not the best competitor either. Looks like a OD 48 that someone cut 20' off the cockpit.

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You're probably right about 30 footers but this is a shame. A well-built 30 footer can go offshore and has a nice motion in a seaway. Loads are manageable, ownership costs (slip fees, haul-outs, sails etc.) are still reasonable, in many places 30 foot slips are available when they're not for larger boats.

 

But these days a new 30-footer is into six figures. So I agree, buy used - there's a glut of good boats out there.

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But I think if J could do a 30 version of a J/70 with a J/95 like cabin profile and a J/111 style interior (with a head) for near 100k, they'd have a boat that might do pretty well.

 

J Boats sell that boat for that price? You're smoking crack.

 

30 footers are hard. if they're racy they generally don't sell cause it's hard to justify a boat that big with no comforts to the missus. If it's a RC it's hard to make them cruisy enuff. Also you're at the point where you have hard decisions to make. I for one wouldn't by a 30 ft boat w/o a retractable keel and easy rudder to remove. OTOH many people dislike those features with a passion. If it rates in IRC it's boring in PHRF. If J does a 30 footer it'll be interesting to see what they do. It'll be hard to think of them doing another cruising oriented boat considering the J97 and J95.

 

If I cared it'd be like a J92s given the J22 vs J70 perf bump with a retractable keel and easy off rudder. Make it Cat 2 capable and you have something with some offshore/coastal capability. But then again not everybody wants that

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I think this thread's boat comparisons might be off on the wrong tangent. I was thinking that the J/70 + J/111 blend would be something more akin to the J/90, not a J/92, 92S, or 95 with a real keel. The closest things to what I am thinking is a Henderson 30 or a Mumm/Farr 30, albeit more J/Boat. The problem is going to be the price... I can't see how J/Boats would want to (even could?) sell a new J/90 (remember it weighed 200lbs more than a J/80 thanks to loads of carbon) for less than $100,000, I'd suspect it would hit right in the $120-125k range... just like a "new" Columbia 30. This is just a really tough market segment, given the price will be too much for too little boat, given used boat pricing. You'd get a nice used J/105 for 2/3 the price and keep your crew dry and happy - unless they are a pack of Anarchists.

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The problem is going to be the price... I can't see how J/Boats would want to (even could?) sell a new J/90 (remember it weighed 200lbs more than a J/80 thanks to loads of carbon) for less than $100,000

Not that it matters much, but you seem to be implying the J/90 weighed more than a J/80 by virtue of construction - "thanks to loads of carbon." That's not accurate. The J/90 had a displacement 200 lbs higher than a J/80 due to (33% more) ballast, and 4 feet of LOA. Without ballast, the J/90 was 265 pounds lighter than the J/80 despite another 4 feet LOA (J/90). And if J/Boats builds a competitive (performance & price) 29-30 footer, it won't be a carbon hull.

 

Just as the J/70 is a better performer than the older J/80 (per foot if not boat for boat), and the J/111 is considerably faster than a J/105 or J/109, it seems they could come up with a faster 29-30 footer than a J/92s without exotic construction. I hope so...but who knows.

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I meant the cost of carbon was greater, not the cause of the weight... as you note that all goes down to the glorious 1,865lbs of lead and other alloys as ballast. The carbon clearly helped the hull (no ballast) of a J/90 be about 265lbs lighter than a J/80's hull. I am curious how much lighter a boat they could build today without resorting to as much carbon for strength.

 

I really want to see another J/125 though...

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I'm a J22 owner - mostly daysail and a little PHRF - and I have been intrigued with the Center Harbor 31. It's a sweet daysailer/overnighter with a large cockpit, a very traditional look and a modern underbody. It has a cold-molded hull and wood deck, cabin, etc.

 

For me, the wood is a drawback, but if it were fiberglass, I would sell my soul. See it:

 

http://www.yachtworl...E/United-States

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Yes, that's gorgeous and a good sailer I'll bet. Seems a bargain for what it is. You'll come to enjoy maintaining it - just keep a cover on it.

 

Let us know when your offer is accepted . . .

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What I'm waiting for - and you should be too - is the new SeaScape 27, launched several months ago in Slovenia, and currently undergoing final pre-production testing. That boat is a Sam Manuard design - he of major Mini 6.5 design and racing skills - and is being built to ISAF Category 2 specifications (i.e., coastal offshore racing). Strikes a fine compromise between racing and cruising - albeit European-style minimalist cruising - and features all the things everyone here likes: carbon appendages, fat-head main, outboard motor stored beneath the cockpit on a pivoting bracket, head / holding tank, a-sails / gennakers, etc. It is being built with a pivoting keel (of the kind perfected by Martin Defline), and can fit on its trailer inside a 40 foot container. Still waiting on price but the target is under 100K Euros, sail-away.

 

I believe there's already a thread on this boat in SA. Plenty on the Web, including videos.

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What I'm waiting for - and you should be too - is the new SeaScape 27, launched several months ago in Slovenia, and currently undergoing final pre-production testing. That boat is a Sam Manuard design - he of major Mini 6.5 design and racing skills - and is being built to ISAF Category 2 specifications (i.e., coastal offshore racing). Strikes a fine compromise between racing and cruising - albeit European-style minimalist cruising - and features all the things everyone here likes: carbon appendages, fat-head main, outboard motor stored beneath the cockpit on a pivoting bracket, head / holding tank, a-sails / gennakers, etc. It is being built with a pivoting keel (of the kind perfected by Martin Defline), and can fit on its trailer inside a 40 foot container. Still waiting on price but the target is under 100K Euros, sail-away.

 

I believe there's already a thread on this boat in SA. Plenty on the Web, including videos.

Yes the SSC27 has its own thread, just search for Seascape, as well as a Facebook page on top of the vids and pics on line. One is coming to the south.

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I'm a J22 owner - mostly daysail and a little PHRF - and I have been intrigued with the Center Harbor 31. It's a sweet daysailer/overnighter with a large cockpit, a very traditional look and a modern underbody. It has a cold-molded hull and wood deck, cabin, etc.

 

For me, the wood is a drawback, but if it were fiberglass, I would sell my soul. See it:

 

http://www.yachtworl...E/United-States

What a beauty! But the woodwork and $ would scare me off, and the SA/D = 19 and D/L = 221 aren't what I am looking for.

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What I'm waiting for - and you should be too - is the new SeaScape 27, launched several months ago in Slovenia, and currently undergoing final pre-production testing.
I've been following the SS27 here and elsewhere. Looks a little tippy for single/double-handing (lots of heel in light air in the factory video) but time will tell...

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Even a tippy J/24 was pretty fun solo in 25 knots with a reef and #4 (and the lockers sealed!) With the 92 (which isn't that great on initial stability either) I knew I was getting enough horsepower for the light stuff but with the ability to reef when needed. Stating the obvious, but I wouldn't rule out the SS27 until you've sailed it.

 

I can tell I'm getting old though - I could really enjoy putzing around in that CH31.

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