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TJSoCal

Aegean Debris Found

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Well, this proves to any doubters that may be left, they sailed straight into the island...

Can someone remind me what visibility was like during the race?

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rhetorical babble ?

 

Clear and dark, half hour after moonset I think.

 

don't feed the trolls ;)

 

closure indeed

 

but why did this not happen by May ????

 

cant see the laptop being worth floating

 

wonder how many were there and didn't speak ???

 

our NAVY Seals could have swam to the location & back

 

yet could have copped a ride un-detected (above or below)

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rhetorical babble ?

 

Clear and dark, half hour after moonset I think.

 

don't feed the trolls ;)

 

closure indeed

 

but why did this not happen by May ????

 

cant see the laptop being worth floating

 

wonder how many were there and didn't speak ???

 

our NAVY Seals could have swam to the location & back

 

yet could have copped a ride un-detected (above or below)

 

 

 

Jeebus christ man, try writing sentences and using very basic punctuation.

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rhetorical babble ?

 

Clear and dark, half hour after moonset I think.

 

don't feed the trolls ;)

 

closure indeed

 

but why did this not happen by May ????

 

cant see the laptop being worth floating

 

wonder how many were there and didn't speak ???

 

our NAVY Seals could have swam to the location & back

 

yet could have copped a ride un-detected (above or below)

its ok woody, you dont understand why i want to know about the conditions because unlike 99% of the people here, you don't race sailboats.

thats fine though, we need people like you to hang out on the sidelines and take pictures, and come here and post nonsense to remind us all what can happen when we get old and suffer from diminished capacity ;)

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Can someone remind me what visibility was like during the race?

 

Clear and dark, half hour after moonset I think.

Thanks Bill. How much breeze approx?

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It was sub 5 knots TWS depending on where you were. We were about 5 miles outside and 15 miles down the track at that time.

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there is a note by someone in the news article blog that the coroner's report showed THC in the blood of all 4 victims. Can anyone confirm if this is true?

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It was sub 5 knots TWS depending on where you were. We were about 5 miles outside and 15 miles down the track at that time.

I know ive personally been guilty of letting my guard down in light air conditions offshore...

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there is a note by someone in the news article blog that the coroner's report showed THC in the blood of all 4 victims. Can anyone confirm if this is true?

doesnt matter if its true or not, its totally irrelevant. THC can stay in your body for several months after smoking...

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I knew Theo personally and sailed with him aboard Aegean many times. When he was on the water it was all business. I highly doubt he was under the influence of anything. I cannot speak for the rest of the crew, but Theo would not have had guys onboard that were not serious about what their tasks would be during the race.

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I knew Theo personally and sailed with him aboard Aegean many times. When he was on the water it was all business. I highly doubt he was under the influence of anything. I cannot speak for the rest of the crew, but Theo would not have had guys onboard that were not serious about what their tasks would be during the race.

 

I've heard the same thing as well. From a fellow South Bayonite, I'm sorry for your bit in this tragic loss, Swims....

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It was sub 5 knots TWS depending on where you were. We were about 5 miles outside and 15 miles down the track at that time.

I know ive personally been guilty of letting my guard down in light air conditions offshore...

 

Me too. I have fallen asleep whilst on the helm. Must have only been for a few seconds as when i came to we were heading in the opposite direction.

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there is a note by someone in the news article blog that the coroner's report showed THC in the blood of all 4 victims. Can anyone confirm if this is true?

 

Negative. Only in one of the bodies, and he had a permit for medical THC usage. Everything we know about the skipper and crew suggest he would not have used during the race. "corrected" news artice: http://canews.ucanbl...ada-yacht-race/

 

My personal thoughts and conclusions are (these are my thoughts not necessarily the official panel conclusions):

 

1. It's an important tactical decision in this race whether to go inside or outside the islands. In previous races the skipper of Aegean set a waypoint a mile or so in front of the islands to signal they needed to make a decision which way to go. And they used waypoint alarms.

 

Normally it is good practice to offset waypoints away from hazards so you will not run into the hazard if you over run the waypoint a little. However, in this particular race, the tactic of putting a waypoint just in front of the island is reasonable to allow you to decide which side to go with the minimum distance wasted. But if so you sure want to be paying attention when you arrive at that waypoint.

 

2. In previous races they did run radar but did not use a guard zone alarm because there were so many targets (race boats) it would just be going off all the time. However if they had set a small guard zone (say 1nm) it would still have given them time to react and would not have had too many 'false alarms', at least a few hours after the start as the competitors were spread out.

 

3. In previous races there were always at least 2 on watch at night, never did they leave only one on watch. The skipper usually went to sleep for an hour during the night motoring period.

 

4. The weather was calm (5kts of breeze) calm seas but a long ocean swell that was breaking on the island. It was clear with good visibility but dark with the moon just set.

 

Assuming they did these things as they had in previous races, then you have to conclude that at least a couple people on watch were for some reason not paying attention to a known hazard and that they did not hear or respond to the waypoint alarm. Unfortunately the human body likes to sleep at 1:30am and you really need to exercise discipline to stay alert then. There are historic procedures that have been developed to help crew stay alert - like regularly making log entries and plotting positions and setting timers to do every 10 minute horizon and radar/plotter scans, etc.

 

The autopsy reports found no indication of CO poisoning and no alcohol. My personal conclusion is that they were complacent after doing 6 of these races and just fell asleep. I can't see any other reasonable conclusion.

 

4. Some of the crew were alive and alert after the impact as someone pushed the SPOT SOS button approximately 7 minutes after the impact. Unfortunately this SPOT SOS message did not get communicated to the authorities and no search was launched until the next day when other vessels found the debris field. A DSC may day would have been much more effective (with all the racing boats near by) but it may be that their mast fell down quite quickly on impact. An EPIRB would also have been more effective (USCG san diego would have launched assets within 30 minutes with a gpirb signal) but they did not have an eprib.

 

5. I believe the natural human inclination in this situation would be to try to swim toward land but in this case there was no safety that way only rocks and a cliff. They might have survived if they had tried to swim out away from land but at night they could probably not see that. Water temps were 62F. They died of blunt trauma, bashed on the rocks by the swell (3 died directly from blunt trauma and one drown due to traumatic injuries).

 

6. None of the bodies were wearing pfd's. When you abandon ship you should really don a pfd.

 

Bottom line . . . we all make mistakes, unfortunately the outcome was truly severe in this case. I am still surprised that all died in this incident. It is an intense reminder of the basics of seamanship - keeping a real watch at 1:30am, navigating to avoid hazards even if you miss a waypoint, and properly making mayday/abandoning ship.

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The article on the front page says: The drive shaft between the transmission and stuffing box is tightly wrapped in chain

 

 

Can someone explain what this means? What chain is this? What is the significance of this?

 

Possible thought: spare anchor chain stowed near the engine suddenly moved as the boat sank / rolled on impact, the engine was still running and the chain got wrapped around the drive shaft. Can anyone clarify / confirm this?

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There were no survivors and no eye witnesses, so no-one can definitely answer your question . . . but your "possible thought" is probably right. The engine was certainly running as they impacted the island and started to break up. Most likely stowed anchor chain broke loose and rolled into the shaft area and got sucked around it.

 

The article on the front page says: The drive shaft between the transmission and stuffing box is tightly wrapped in chain

 

 

Can someone explain what this means? What chain is this? What is the significance of this?

 

Possible thought: spare anchor chain stowed near the engine suddenly moved as the boat sank / rolled on impact, the engine was still running and the chain got wrapped around the drive shaft. Can anyone clarify / confirm this?

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Estar,

 

Thanks. Appreciate your concise summary. Much here to be learned.

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was this yacht of such poor quality that smaking a rock cliff at full 6+ knots destroyed it into the little pices we have seen? are they one shake lower than a Mac Grooder laminate wise? that thing was mauled

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was this yacht of such poor quality that smaking a rock cliff at full 6+ knots destroyed it into the little pices we have seen? are they one shake lower than a Mac Grooder laminate wise? that thing was mauled

 

There was a fairly large NW swell running that night. The spot they hit has no beach to speak of, just sheer rocks. It is probable that the boat was repeatedly thrown against those rocks.

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I was cruising in north channel, Lake Huron. Paying attention as my auto helm (dad) steered to cross track error. The waypoint was just off the island and we were supposed to come around the opposite side to the harbor. Did not have a chartplotter of any sort at the time.

 

After we went 5 miles past the desired island and the next island did not look right, cycled the instruments to find out dtw was 5 miles behind us but the cross track was still zero. Sure the GPS was alarming in the cabin but I couldn't hear it from cockpit.

 

Lesson learned the hard way without any bad repercussions, cross track doesn't care which side of the mark you are on.

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older software started to calculate forwards around the world after a waypoint has been passed

 

 

 

[ QUOTE ]

 

 

Cross-track error is of almost no use to sailors -- probably not to power-boaters either.

 

It's for landing aircraft.

 

[ UNQUOTE ]

 

was there many years before gps was permitted for aircraft

 

.......... and why does xte have no relevance ?

 

 

P.S.

Lesson learned the hard way without any bad repercussions, cross track doesn't care which side of the mark you are on.

 

ERRR.... means you are on the extended Rhumb Line

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Cross-track error is of almost no use to sailors -- probably not to power-boaters either.

 

It's for landing aircraft.

 

Wtf ... Xte means you are on the most direct path from the point you set it to the desired waypoint. In a free leg and not caring about about max vmg ( I did say CRUISING! ), xte is the way Raytheon = auto helm steered a boat. Keeping xte within limits is less reactive than the swings of a flux gate of a boat in waves. My auto helm is ~10 yrs old and don't know how the modern ones are different.

 

I know plenty of people who monitor xte as well as btw on free legs while racing.

 

I guess you know more / better ... Sorry to bother you.

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Cross-track error is of almost no use to sailors -- probably not to power-boaters either.

 

It's for landing aircraft.

You have no idea...

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If you have some use for cross-track error, don't make snarky remarks; please tell me as I am always looking to expand my toolset. I do GPS, celestial, DR, observable LOPs... everything I have available to me. If there are some autopilots that can deliver a new course to steer by analyzing cross-track error, tell me; I've not used any that have that capability.

 

Most of the boats I go on have REAL SIMPLE autopilots. If it's not critical, I simply track bearing over time and apply a correction. If it is critical I track our position on paper and if we are being set by current or leeway or swells I apply more precise corrections.

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If you have some use for cross-track error, don't make snarky remarks; please tell me as I am always looking to expand my toolset. I do GPS, celestial, DR, observable LOPs... everything I have available to me. If there are some autopilots that can deliver a new course to steer by analyzing cross-track error, tell me; I've not used any that have that capability.

 

Most of the boats I go on have REAL SIMPLE autopilots. If it's not critical, I simply track bearing over time and apply a correction. If it is critical I track our position on paper and if we are being set by current or leeway or swells I apply more precise corrections.

 

For someone with all that claimed navigation knowledge and experience it is hard to believe you don''t know what XTE is good for.

 

Not likely to use it during a race. But while under power in sailboat or power and you are in a channel or have an obstruction of some kind to one side or the other and there is current, you will suddenly learn what XTE is use for.

 

Sample where I have used it while motoring; North side of Sinclair Island in the San Juans. Strong currents in the area and a reef that hangs off the island a long way. there are some wonderful lights set up there and I can do it with the lights, but if vis is down the XTE on my handheld GPS is great. there is a screen that looks like a road, and as long as I dont get off the wrong side of the road I have water under the keel.

 

you see, while you are being swung in the current the GPS will only keep adjusting the course (directly) to the Waypoint. XTE will make sure you stay on the line from the point you set the way point until you get there. I don't know of an autopilot that would keep me in the channel ( 0 or very low XTE) but it even works to show novices, espcially kids. They can drive the boat like a video game with that screen, "just keep it on the road", and someone else maintains a lookout.

 

If I haven't made that clear enough let me know and I will try again. I can find pictures I am sure.

 

In the case of Agean I can't really think of a practical way XTE would contribute to this situation.

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Agreed with XTE being important while going through channels. When driving the submarine out of Kings Bay, XTE was one of the most important items we kept an eye on.

 

Ranges (on light/sign over another, separated by a fair amount of distance) give a qualitative assessment of XTE. Sailing up the miles long channel into St. Simon's Sound (GA) at night with very shallow shoals immediately outside the channel showed the importance of ranges. Driving up the channel into St. Augustine (FL) after sailing through the night with waves breaking over shoals INSIDE the channel and no range to indicate a safe course was not fun.

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If you have some use for cross-track error, don't make snarky remarks; please tell me as I am always looking to expand my toolset. I do GPS, celestial, DR, observable LOPs... everything I have available to me. If there are some autopilots that can deliver a new course to steer by analyzing cross-track error, tell me; I've not used any that have that capability.

 

Most of the boats I go on have REAL SIMPLE autopilots. If it's not critical, I simply track bearing over time and apply a correction. If it is critical I track our position on paper and if we are being set by current or leeway or swells I apply more precise corrections.

 

For someone with all that claimed navigation knowledge and experience it is hard to believe you don''t know what XTE is good for.

 

Not likely to use it during a race. But while under power in sailboat or power and you are in a channel or have an obstruction of some kind to one side or the other and there is current, you will suddenly learn what XTE is use for.

 

Sample where I have used it while motoring; North side of Sinclair Island in the San Juans. Strong currents in the area and a reef that hangs off the island a long way. there are some wonderful lights set up there and I can do it with the lights, but if vis is down the XTE on my handheld GPS is great. there is a screen that looks like a road, and as long as I dont get off the wrong side of the road I have water under the keel.

 

you see, while you are being swung in the current the GPS will only keep adjusting the course (directly) to the Waypoint. XTE will make sure you stay on the line from the point you set the way point until you get there. I don't know of an autopilot that would keep me in the channel ( 0 or very low XTE) but it even works to show novices, espcially kids. They can drive the boat like a video game with that screen, "just keep it on the road", and someone else maintains a lookout.

 

If I haven't made that clear enough let me know and I will try again. I can find pictures I am sure.

 

In the case of Agean I can't really think of a practical way XTE would contribute to this situation.

 

Yes this thread could use some Pix

 

got any Cougar shots ???

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