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Vogel515

So, we found an old 505 on Craigslist… where do we start?

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My girlfriend and I have been looking for a fun boat to sail around in Boston Harbor, a boat that was both athletic and something that would teach us a lot. While browsing craigslist I came across the 5o5 and it seemed to check all the boxes, so I decided to get the boat.

 

I found this thread in regards to a 56## series boat:

 

http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=121672

 

There seem to be a lot of similarities between the boats; however the one I bought seems to be in a slightly better starting condition, but of an older variety.

 

Are there any specific trouble areas I should be looking for in this variety of 5o5?

 

 

 

505 3

505 1

505 2

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You need to start by posting some pics of your girlfriend. You're 96 posts into SA, you should know this by now.

 

 

 

 

Lucky you- I'd love to get back into 505s. Used to sail them in the north sea when 20 knots and 3m waves was a quiet day out.

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You need to start by posting some pics of your girlfriend. You're 96 posts into SA, you should know this by now.

 

 

 

 

Lucky you- I'd love to get back into 505s. Used to sail them in the north sea when 20 knots and 3m waves was a quiet day out.

 

HA! Getemout!

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My girlfriend and I have been looking for a fun boat to sail around in Boston Harbor, a boat that was both athletic and something that would teach us a lot. While browsing craigslist I came across the 5o5 and it seemed to check all the boxes, so I decided to get the boat.

 

I found this thread in regards to a 56## series boat:

 

http://forums.sailin...howtopic=121672

 

There seem to be a lot of similarities between the boats; however the one I bought seems to be in a slightly better starting condition, but of an older variety.

 

Are there any specific trouble areas I should be looking for in this variety of 5o5?

 

I assume you aren't interested in racing against other 505s-yet. (I'd like to change that, but first just go sailing).

 

#1 most important thing is to do what you can to ensure the tanks are sealed. The bow tank is critically important to staying afloat. Make sure it doesn't take on water through the spin launcher tube or through any failed tabbing. Check the connection between the traveler bar and the tanks. That needs to be sound, and watertight.

 

Rigging: it looks like you may have an obsolete arrangement for the jib sheets but I can't be sure. You also have a nice old mast colored gold. I had one once and I like it :-) Make sure all your standing rigging is sound. Don't lose the mast over the side.

 

There are a gazillion ways to set these boats up. First need to know what you have more specifically and know what you want to do more specifically. As long as everything functions, you can have a load of fun, and learn a lot, for a year or two, even if you are sailing in a "old fashioned" arrangement. It costs a significant amount to bring rigging up to current. I hope you have a spinnaker pole and a spinnaker. Don't neglect that--it really makes the boat :-)

 

Looks like you should have some great fun!

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Hey fastyacht,

 

Thanks for the response. I'd love to race other 505's, there doesn't seem to be much of a fleet in this area. I will be at HPDO in a couple weeks and look forward to checking out hull 4593 which is on the entry list.

 

#1 Right now, the tanks are not sealed. There is a 3 inch hole in the port tank and the front deck is also not watertight.

#Rigging, I plan to go through it all thoroughly

#Set up, as of right now I don't plan to change anything. I am debating whether I want to strip everything off the hull and clean the hull up.

#I do have the spinnaker / spin pole

 

What stiffens these boats below the decks? Do I have to worry about 'stringers' rotted out? or any problem areas I wouldn't immediately see that are structural?

 

This boat has been sitting on a trailer with straight bunks, it appears the owner did a great job about keeping the boat dry, but there is a bit of flattening on the hull at the point it meets the trailer. Are these boats normally kept on trailers like this? or trailers with rollers? If I wanted to support the boat better on the trailer, what would be recommended?

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That's one hell of a trailer for a 505, I'd suggest getting a dinghy trailer/trolley combo with a mast post and selling that big trailer, should be a pretty even exchange I reckon.

 

Nice looking boat, a bit of epoxy to hold the deck down, a sand and a lick of varnish, I hope it looks good and you have lots of fun.

 

Bunas

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Well I helpd redo a similar aged Parker boat, First off it probably has the old "small kite". So tomake it really work OK the first thing to do is to re-rig for the masthead kite. And this means setting it so you can support that with masthead trap lines.

 

The simplest way to do this is to pop rivet two "U" eyes as far up the mast ast the rules allow. The prroblem is that this screws up the main shape upwind. SO you fix that by having a "Trap TWinger" line. essentally this is a line with a spliced "Y" at the top. Each end of the "Y" is a spliced eyeloop. the Trap lines go through the eyeloops, and downwind the twinger is slack so the trap lines sread out and the load goes directly to suppor the top of the mast

 

But when youtake the kite down, you cinch up the Trap Twing. the TT ileads from your cleat down low, up the mast and through a microblock at the current trap connection point. ( the microblock can be hung from a spectra loop run through the current trap attachment points. )

 

The above mentioned "Y" is wide enough so that you can trap from "The Way Back Machine".. so each leg is probably 2" long. So the "Y" passes through the microblcok. as a doubled line.

 

So when yo ucinch up the trap twing line, it pulls the eyeloops at the end of the "Y" in to the mast. at the old Trap attachment point. This now means that the lateral loadding on the mast is being loaded up at the original upwind trap ponts and Bob's Your uncle.

 

You will also probably have to build a new Sock for the larger kite, the old sock probably narrows too fast.

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You also probably want to go to a Split Y mainshet bridle at the stern if you don't already have it. So that the Leech Load doesn;t fold the boom in half. Partiicularly if you go from a Dacron to a Mylar main.

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Good pick, first step is to get the boat SOUND to sail. The 5-Oh! is a hot rod and generates a lot of force on the rig. That also makes it really fun to sail.

 

Look for cracks thru the structure (as opposed to gelcoat crazing) around the side decks & centerboard trunk and the CB trunk braces, and the keelson especially around the mast step. Those will need to be ground out & fixed with FG cloth (as opposed to dabbing in some putty) so hopefully you don't have any.

 

Next is getting the foils in working order. Take out the centerboard, take some pics so you'll know how it goes back in. Cracks splits big gouges etc etc will be worth fixing. It's probably wood so look for black soggy spots. Ditto the rudder, and go ahead replace the hiking stick U-joint before it breaks on you.

 

Rig- low stretch halyards with secure cleats are not negotiable. Sheets & sheeting arrangement has a wide variation, I would go for lower friction and lower adjustability, a simple bridle on the main. Good ratchet blocks, probably already has them but this is one of the first things to get cannibalized on old boats because they're expensive. Control lines, again low-stretch with a good cleating arrangement.

 

There's a difference between 'sailable' and 'racing condition' so you choose where to go. Full split controls are nice but expensive.

 

A really good trap harness is worth having too.

 

Hope this helps.

Hope to see your posts about sailing the boat!

 

FB- Doug

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If you are just daysailing then keeping old hoist height maybe a way to score free kites that you can blow up. goldspar =flex? may want hollow luff jibs? even though there may still be gelcoat i would say just fix everything in epoxy and then paint with rattlecan to keep uv off epoxy, you just want to sail, no resale, and you do not want fix same stuff 2x

good luck, bos hrbr much cleaner now than 25 yrs ago so enjoy

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We converted two old kites into one "New Big" practice kite. It was a bit ugly but for practicing and ripping around it was fine. Basically we took the better of the two old kites, cut it in half at the mid Girth, and used the cloth from the other kite to create new panels to fit. if we had been smart we would have used SailCadX to generate the patterns, as it was we kinda eyeballed it using his townhouse living room as the "loft floor" so we ended up with a slightly pinched waist... but it was fine for beercan racing weeknights and for learning boat handling

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If you are just daysailing then keeping old hoist height maybe a way to score free kites that you can blow up. goldspar =flex? may want hollow luff jibs? even though there may still be gelcoat i would say just fix everything in epoxy and then paint with rattlecan to keep uv off epoxy, you just want to sail, no resale, and you do not want fix same stuff 2x

good luck, bos hrbr much cleaner now than 25 yrs ago so enjoy

 

I had a gold spar that was a tree trunk. Makes my proctor D feel like a wet noodle. Can't tell without seeing it.

 

I disagree with epoxy except for specialized areas. It is a PITA to work with and expensive, compared to polyester. You can do a complete repair in polyester in one afternoon and go sailing tomorrow--not so with Slow System. And it will look better, too. And cost less.

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You will also probably have to build a new Sock for the larger kite, the old sock probably narrows too fast.

 

Some require a complete new tube. In that case you have to do the extensive invasive port side fwd launch mod.

 

For these old boats it almost seems a waste. It would be fun to have a "classics" division form organically...and even keep the old tight reaching legs :-)

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Great info guys, thanks a lot I appreciate it.

 

On Sunday I am going to head down to the boat and rig it up. Goal is to do a complete inventory and take pictures of everything. I'll post everything Sunday night / Monday.

 

We do have the small chute and I believe the narrower of the gold rigs. Unfortunately I don't know much else until I get down there to get a good look at everything.

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Congrats on the purchase. I had an old Ballenger 505 and had a lot of fun with it in the 90s. It was an old boat then at something like 6200 and had outdated systems like a lever vang, magic boxes, etc.

 

I would not spend much upgrading a boat of that vintage. Just get it sound enough to sail reliably and kind of water tight and have fun. Someone mentioned the newer, longer luff kites. On my newer 505, we used to run the big chute on a Procter D at the high hoist (it's not mast head, something like .85 meters higher) with no modifications at all and never had a problem in windy San Francisco bay even though the mast moved around at the top. You might be able to do the same. If you want to try the bigger kiteIf you do, just set the new height a little lower than max to be safe. Maybe something like just .5 meters. The bigger kite really helps performance but isn't required just for day sailing anyway.

 

One thing that it looks like you are missing that you'll really need to make the boat race-able with any other is a mast ram. My Ballenger did not one either. The mast pumps and the leach opens up compared to all the boats we'd sail against. The ram pushes back against the mast at the gooseneck and keep the mast from bending too far forward. It was a non-starter for racing without it as the boat just lacked power. I tried chocks around the gate but they didn't work well at all.

 

If I remember correctly, the big things I wanted to improve on the boat were the mast ram and making the mast rake back and forth like the newer boats. Both require some rigging, especially the mast rake systems which require you to cut holes in the boat and run tubes and build in an auto adjusting jib halyard too. I wouldn't worry about any of it if I were you and would stick adjustable chainplates on the forestay and side stays to be able to pin the rig between 25'8" and 25'0" depending on the breeze. The length is measured from the top of the main halyard to the bottom of the transom with a tape measure. The rake makes a huge difference in how de-powered the boat is.

 

hope you have fun.

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Alright, we shot down to the boat today and uncovered it, partially rigged it, and took pictures of just about everything. While looking it over we discussed what we wanted to do with the boat and how we were going to do it. For now, the plan will be to keep the boat rigged as it is. We will go through the hull and fix / clean up everything else. The deck needs to come off and we will replace that with some new wood, a lot of the lines practically turned to dust in our hands, those will also be replaced. The hull has some imperfections which we will also clean up.

 

Once we get the boat back into mint shape, we'll see about getting a larger kite and setting up the rigging for it, it looks like the work required would be fairly easy.

 

Here is a link to all the images:

 

https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/116353297920389366021/albums/5792463943593632833

 

There is also a video toward the end of the album where I am pushing on the hull. Is this delamination or is normal? The structure of these boats seems so incredibly light.

 

Also, what is this? IMG_2507.JPG

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That's a boom vang.

 

zoom in on the attached (this is my old boat--a 1966 Simmonds (spelling?) hull number 2600 or so. You will see how the lever vang is rigged.

 

 

Perhaps we can get a "vintage" boat sub-fleet up and running. (We used to do that in the FD and it was fun!).

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Thanks for that Fastyacht. Will rig it correctly next time.

 

In the mean time, I can't wait to use this thing...

 

IMAG0671.jpg

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Thanks for that Fastyacht. Will rig it correctly next time.

 

In the mean time, I can't wait to use this thing...

 

IMAG0671.jpg

 

Wait, Boston? Then how are there a bunch of Thunderbirds on the hard at the yard?

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The four in the yard could use some help, we've got seven others in the water. Expecting two of those four to be in the water next year, one is for sale for a couple grand and one is under going a thorough renovation.

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I am going to sell the trailer on craigslist, can someone recommend a trailer to get for the 5o5?

 

rollers? bunks? straps?

 

Fastyacht, what do you keep your boat on?

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You want TWO bits.. you want a DOLLY to launch from and you want a trailer to load the dolly onto. That basically means that even the cheapo "box" trailers you can get from Home Depot will do. you just need to build a way that you can secure the dolly to the trailer

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Do you have any images of what you suggest? I figured the dolly would be something that can be stored on the boat, but if the dolly can rest well on the trailer that's even better...

 

I could manage to outfit something like that with the current trailer, but the current trailer is so large I still may look into unloading it for something smaller / lighter.

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Here's how my IC goes on the trailer on the dolly, you should be able to adapt somethin similar. I usually launch from the trailer but can slide dolly off and launch from it also. It is a simple sietech laser dolly, was made longer for the IC, very easy to do.

post-39147-0-54837400-1349204876_thumb.jpg

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You want TWO bits.. you want a DOLLY to launch from and you want a trailer to load the dolly onto. That basically means that even the cheapo "box" trailers you can get from Home Depot will do. you just need to build a way that you can secure the dolly to the trailer

 

I still have a circa 1973 tilting dinghy trailer but with the tilt disabled. I have multiple short independent bilge bunks and keel rollers. Some are longitudinal some athwartships. I use a seitech dolly but it is a pain to transport it because it is for a smaller boat and some parts don't come apart any longer -- maybe I'll repair that. I would not support the boat with the seitech on the road. Not strong enough or trustable. The Seitech is far from shock rated and the glass reinforced plastic fittings fail in a brittle manner.

 

The contemporary approach (the "Euro" approach) uses a heavy galvanized steel dolly which supports the boat under the wings rather than with bunks. They are made by "rapide" and they aren't cheap. They slide into the trailer but as the Hanseatic Marauder suggests, you could, with some care, make that work on any trailer.

 

The difficult thing psychologically, is spending more money for a new trailer system than you spent for the used boat.

 

BTW my Seitech dolly doesn't have the handle (broke off this year) and so now it is quite easy to transfer from trailer to dolly and vice versa, as I can put the dolly under the trailer and just aft of it. So a Seitech without a handle (we have docklines acting as a handle) will work well with the old style trailers.

 

It is extremely important to support your boat correctly on the trailer. The bunks must spread the load and transfer through major structure.

 

The "old" 505 site is full of gems. Here is a really thorough discussion:

 

http://www.int505.org/old_site/trailer.htm

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you can build a decent dolly from just some aluminum tubes (read broken masts) FGed together into a travois shape. Hang a wood based cradle on it, add a couple of axels and youve got a decent dolly.

 

I've seen road trailers as simple as the Canoe one (thals what mine is like and I just lash the dolly to the trailer) to beautifully engineered box structures (Trevor Bayliss') that have integrated retracting ramps and multiple mast carriers.

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Vogel,

 

If you can swing it you really want a nested dolly/trailer arrangement. Rapide (look up Dixon-Bate) makes them in the UK and they are available if you organize shipment in one of the containers which comes across from Rondar. Otherwise, the 505 sailors on the west coast are organizing a build of the same thing somewhere in California so you might be able to jump in on that. It's a bit of overkill for such an old 505 but it's the best solution.

 

I wouldn't use that trapeze harness if I were you. It looks like it will come apart as soon as you put your weight on it. I'm sure you can find a used one for cheap.

 

I live in the Boston area and might be able to swing by next week to check out your boat and give you some tips if you're interested.

 

Tom

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Thanks again for the responses. I like the idea of the nested dolly on the trailer and will keep you up to date on my progress in finding something... gotta sell my trailer first.

 

Locally it looks like there is an option as well: Sturgis Boat Works in West Yarmouth, MA http://www.sturgisboatworks.com/Trailers.asp

 

Tom - I was kidding about the vest, well maybe not entirely, I'll wait for warmer weather to try it out. I don't want to waste your time, but if you want to come down to SHYC and check it out, you're welcome to. I'd buy you a few beers.

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The Sturgis guys are nice but you really want a better solution than what they can provide. I've attached a pic of my old boat on its Rapide dolly/trailer. Gunwhale hung set ups are better than the basic/flat rack program Sturgis has.

 

SHYC...Scituate Harbor or Stage Harbor?

post-8657-0-55351400-1349272890_thumb.jpg

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Like Carbon (my brother) said, you could see if somebody would import one for you. With Rondar US north of Boston, they may be able to find room in a container for a 505 trailer/dolly combo for you or there's Mersea too, both from England. You only need to have them imported as trailer parts, not a complete trailer since w/o lights they don't need US spec initially.

 

Dolly: http://www.merseatrailers.com/product_details.php?top=Marine%20-%20Dinghy%20Combi⊂=275%20launch%20trolleys&category=38&prod_code=C27T505&product=C27T505

 

Trailer: http://www.merseatrailers.com/product_details.php?top=Marine%20-%20Dinghy%20Combi⊂=Road%20Bases&category=4&prod_code=C27RA10&product=C27RA10

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I'm in a similar situation. Just bought 5849, a '76 Rondar. Rigging is mostly intact, but seems to be missing the ram or maybe it had some kind of block instead. Maybe we can compare notes. At this stage I plan on staying simple. My biggest debate though, is, the Rondar has a raised hoop 'midships mainsheet system. I hear a lot of people recommending a transom system for ease. I don't plan on all-out, high wind conditions... I like the center hoop, and think it would keep the cockpit relatively free of clutter. Thoughts?

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I'm in a similar situation. Just bought 5849, a '76 Rondar. Rigging is mostly intact, but seems to be missing the ram or maybe it had some kind of block instead. Maybe we can compare notes. At this stage I plan on staying simple. My biggest debate though, is, the Rondar has a raised hoop 'midships mainsheet system. I hear a lot of people recommending a transom system for ease. I don't plan on all-out, high wind conditions... I like the center hoop, and think it would keep the cockpit relatively free of clutter. Thoughts?

 

Some of the current teams use this--I think in France.

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trailer/dolly, make yr own, plywood on trailer, dolly (which can be self sourced) on top.

hoops, 25 years ago conventional wisdom was better in breeze, easier for learning, gave away point in lighter airs, Milanes & white cut their mains with "rebound" to accomodate, need a stiffer boom potentially.

old 50s had chocks, parrel beads, worm drive rams, you name it at the partners. if you are not racing just set and forget for the day. in your shoes i would think about the old aussie auto rig, goldspar/kyrwood kine.their main controls were rake and kicker and barber hauler.

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Hi!

I am in the similar situation, old 505 ready to restore in my back yard.

I was wondering about new Sock for the larger kite, what dimension should that be?

 

Triangular like this one or something else?

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Hi!

I am in the similar situation, old 505 ready to restore in my back yard.

I was wondering about new Sock for the larger kite, what dimension should that be?

 

Triangular like this one or something else?

 

What's "this one"?

 

I wish we still had triangle courses and no big kite. :-(

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Sock for kite on my 505 is triangular.

The place where it leaves bow tank is triangular.

 

Now I see on pictures in this thread that on this 505 it is circular.

So what dimension should sock for larger kite be?

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Memory Lane:

Some high quality vintage hardware in those pictures.

Van Zandt Sails.

There was a time when the Holt main sheet cleat was the only thing worth a damn.

The Elvstrom ratchets are still desired in some circles, but the Gibb phenolic ratchets aren't worth the powder to blow them up.

Proctor first anodized their masts gold so they wouldn't look hat different from spruce masts in the dinghy lot.

It wasn't until 1970 or so that they switched to silver anodizing. We thought it was so cool and we all felt kind of dork like with our gold masts.

SHC

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Sock for kite on my 505 is triangular.

The place where it leaves bow tank is triangular.

 

Now I see on pictures in this thread that on this 505 it is circular.

So what dimension should sock for larger kite be?

The issue is that the new kites have more cloth for more length. Since you cannot change your tube diameter without major surgery, that then becomes your limitng factor. But you do NOT want the sock to add to it. So what you need is AT LEAST the diameter of the tube downmost of the length of the sock.

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I am doing new deck so major surgery wouldn/t be that much a problem.

So I was wondering should I change tube diameter.

If the answer is yes what should new dimensions be?

 

If the answer is no what are my options for larger kite?

If I understand correctly what you are saying you think that tube is large enought for the big kite but the sock is the problem?

So the bigger sock would be the answer, lots easier that new tube.

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I am doing new deck so major surgery wouldn/t be that much a problem.

So I was wondering should I change tube diameter.

If the answer is yes what should new dimensions be?

 

If the answer is no what are my options for larger kite?

If I understand correctly what you are saying you think that tube is large enought for the big kite but the sock is the problem?

So the bigger sock would be the answer, lots easier that new tube.

 

My early 70s Rondar doesn't even work well with the old spinnaker. The "horn" tends to snag the spinnaker. The newer boats don't have the horn effect, which is good.

 

Look at one of the current Rondars. The space for the spinnaker is huge. You need that. A "sock" isn't a suitable solution because the new spinnaker is 100 cm longer on the luff. It would go the whole length of the cockpit. When you retrieve the big spins, you need space--open space, rather than a constricted sock.

 

As I haven't sailed one of the new ones yet, I am passing along what I have learned from watching the other guys during practice and asking about it. Best thing to do is to make contact with someone with a modern boat, and also if possible to go measure a current boat.

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I have sailed older Parkers from around 1985.

I didn't have problems with the "horn" but the sock was pretty big.

 

That is why I am asking that someone give me some dimensions for the tube that can work ok with big kite.

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Just got back from an awesome regatta at HPDO and coincidentally ended up at a table next to fastyacht who gave me tons of great information. It was a lot of fun watching the 5o5s blast around and I took some time to go check them all out in the parking lot.

 

Anyway, back to work... yesterday I stripped all the hardware off the parts of the centerboard box which needs work, and the transom area.

 

A few questions:

- Where can I find a replacement spinnaker sock, the one on the boat is on the verge of disintegrating

- It looks like the lines vary in size from 4mm-8mm, but just about all of them are in terrible shape. Any recommendations on what to replace them with?

- Deck recommendations, we contacted a local plywood shop and are getting mixed opinions on whether to finish the wood with epoxy and glass over it, or do we just varnish the hell out of it...

- does anyone know if there is an easy way to replace the springs in this:

 

IMG_2471.JPG

 

more pictures posted: https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/116353297920389366021/albums/5792463943593632833

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The Spinnaker Shop used to make them for Waterat. It's just a mesh material with reinforced ends (dacron) to attach to the bulkhead. I might actually have an old one floating around. PM me.

 

Line can be quite expensive. I don't recommend replacing any lines on this boat with state-of-the-art cordage because it will cost you hundreds. You can get by with cheaper control lines (Marlow pre-stretch perhaps, mostly 4mm), blended core or polyester double braids for sheets, and perhaps some 3-4mm vectran single braids or spectra for higher load (vang) or low stretch applications (halyards). If you live near a 505 fleet, I bet people would just give you a bunch of older line they have floating around.

 

Deck - epoxy!

 

Springs can be replaced if you can source them. Easy to do, but why not just replace the cleat entirely with good used stuff.

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The stock tube and sock diameter on a Waterat or a Kyrwood (7886 in my experience) are just fine with the bigger kites. The length of the sock can be increased, but a short sock was not a big deal.

There is a measurement rule limiting the volume of the tube, I doubt they were ever much smaller than max volume.

 

 

I wish we still had triangle courses and no big kite. :-(

 

Triangles are fun, I like that we still have them at the Worlds and NA's.

And the big kite was the best change to the boat in 57 years.

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... ..

- does anyone know if there is an easy way to replace the springs in this:

 

 

more pictures posted: https://plus.google....463943593632833

 

Just buy new ratchet blocks. They're not -that- expensive

 

Line- you can buy dyneema and kevlar for 'way less from logging supply stores. Re-coring and splicing into the least-expensive double braid for reasonable grip is pretty easy; can be done on couch watching TV.

 

Deck- varnish will not add any strength; I'd be surprised if it didn't already have a layer of glass on the wood but if not, then sanding it down bare and laying up some ~6oz FG cloth (coarse or satin weaves will be easy to "drape" but tighter weave will be smoother) ... not that the 5O5 foredeck is a high-traffiz zone anyway...

 

FB- Doug

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I have a thread on here a ways back about Parker 5216 which I got in sailing shape two winters ago, I sailed it for a year making some small improvements and now its back in the garage awaiting my return from deployment so I can make some more changes. I'm glad i found the boat, as it got me into the local fleet for some racing last year (not in my boat, crewing and driving for some of the other guys). I'm also glad that I took the advice of many on here and didn't spend a ton on it, because its a lot of fun just with the necessary repairs, and the improvements I have planned for it are more just to make it easier to sail with an inexperienced crew than to make it faster around the racecourse, as it won't be a competitive raceboat no matter what I do with it. As is its a really good blend between performance and ease/comfort of sailing with room for a six pack or two.

 

I have some photos here that don't cover the rigging I've done since the first time I sailed it, but do cover some of the rebuild. If you find you need to replace the deck, I went with 4mm okume, coated with epoxy on the bottom and 6oz glass on top, and the deck is pretty stiff, I wouldn't walk on it, but you can slide forward on it no problem as long as you don't put the trap hook through it, I think the glass is a good idea, but might have been a little overkill.

 

I stuck with the small chute for now, as the bigger one is a pain to get through the small launcher. I have lever adjusting shrouds and rake, but I still pretty much just set it for the day and forget it, and I think that for casual sailing, the fully adjustable aren't really necessary unless you sail somewhere that goes through crazy wind changes.

 

Finally the guys in the class have been awesome helping me out with cheap and free older sails and parts; a set of sails that won't make it around the racecourse competitively anymore is just the thing for bombing around a harbour. So if you have any around try to get out and sail with them.

 

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Just got back from an awesome regatta at HPDO and coincidentally ended up at a table next to fastyacht who gave me tons of great information. It was a lot of fun watching the 5o5s blast around and I took some time to go check them all out in the parking lot.

 

Anyway, back to work... yesterday I stripped all the hardware off the parts of the centerboard box which needs work, and the transom area.

 

A few questions:

- Where can I find a replacement spinnaker sock, the one on the boat is on the verge of disintegrating

- It looks like the lines vary in size from 4mm-8mm, but just about all of them are in terrible shape. Any recommendations on what to replace them with?

- Deck recommendations, we contacted a local plywood shop and are getting mixed opinions on whether to finish the wood with epoxy and glass over it, or do we just varnish the hell out of it...

- does anyone know if there is an easy way to replace the springs in this:

 

IMG_2471.JPG

 

more pictures posted: https://plus.google....463943593632833

 

Jesse please correct me if I'm wrong, but these turning blocks in this photo are the obsolete outside jib leads that were original equipment into the 70s before the sailing of the boat led to leads along the seat tank inner edge. My Rondar (4ooo series) has molded in pads out there for ratchet cheeks.

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Sorry I didn't finish that post.

My older boat from 1966 did not have the outboard blocks. I don't remember whether there were filled holes.

 

On the topic of the deck, my '66 had a 3 or 4mm plywood deck over fairly closely spaced (9" to 12" or something) deep 3 or 4mm transverse plywood webs that were drilled out with large lightening holes. There was a king plank along the center underneath, and a beam shelf outboard, and I think there were some longitudinal stringers. The remarkable thing was that there was no attachment between the webs and the deck planking that sat on it! It was all original in the 90s and I crawled out on that deck countless times, never broke it. It was only varnished. I think fiberglass over the wood is overkill. If you epoxy coat it and intend to keep it bright, use the UV stabilized version of epoxy. IF you varnish, put 8 coats, or at least 5 if you use a high build such as Epiphanes woodfinish gloss.

See attached photos.

 

As for wood species, Okoume is very light--about the same as white pine. 5mm Okoume is about the same as 4mm sapele/sipo or dark red meranti. Sapele and sipo are actually even stronger and denser than many of the merantis you will find. If you do it in ribbon stripe sapele it will be stunning. Tell me what the framing arrangement is. And measure the thickness of the original deck, with a clean cut.

 

Okoume rots if you look at it. Sapele / Sipo are much better that way. Dark red meranti is also better than okoume but some of the other market vareties are not (light red, white). Understand that the 3 varieties are actually made up of dozens of different species...it's the tropics...

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BTW great material for Spin Socks is that plastic mesh that some laundry baskets and some sail bags get made out of... its this really plasticky mesh about 2mm gapped.

 

Try your local sewing store that has awning and deckchair material (I've seen it used on deck chairs as well).

 

Its slick, it lets water drain out of the kite after a captsize and its dirt cheap.

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Just got back from an awesome regatta at HPDO and coincidentally ended up at a table next to fastyacht who gave me tons of great information. It was a lot of fun watching the 5o5s blast around and I took some time to go check them all out in the parking lot.

 

Anyway, back to work... yesterday I stripped all the hardware off the parts of the centerboard box which needs work, and the transom area.

 

A few questions:

- Where can I find a replacement spinnaker sock, the one on the boat is on the verge of disintegrating

- It looks like the lines vary in size from 4mm-8mm, but just about all of them are in terrible shape. Any recommendations on what to replace them with?

- Deck recommendations, we contacted a local plywood shop and are getting mixed opinions on whether to finish the wood with epoxy and glass over it, or do we just varnish the hell out of it...

- does anyone know if there is an easy way to replace the springs in this:

 

IMG_2471.JPG

 

more pictures posted: https://plus.google....463943593632833

 

Jesse please correct me if I'm wrong, but these turning blocks in this photo are the obsolete outside jib leads that were original equipment into the 70s before the sailing of the boat led to leads along the seat tank inner edge. My Rondar (4ooo series) has molded in pads out there for ratchet cheeks.

 

Not sure. Older 505's had ratchet blocks on the tanks like this for the kite. Jib leads were indeed further outboard on older boats, but I don't think they went to the rail.

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Hi all.

 

I need help with block on the rail for spinaker sheet.

Spin sheet is going throught block on the rail and than to a bigger one at the stern.

 

What is the best way to mount block on the rail?

Before I take it down it was on screw into the rail, not going throught.

 

I would like to put bolt throught but the rail is that kind so I can't get inside.

I hope someone will understand what I am trying to explain.

 

Maybe a picture will help

https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/116353297920389366021/albums/5792463943593632833/5794123828027007682

 

Hope you don't mind that I use your pic.

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Sapele is about 16% heavier than Okoume, so you have to use thinner material to get the same weight.

On the plus side sapele is one of the harder and more durable plywood veneers out there.

The decks of the classic English dinghies are usually ribbon sawn sapele which gives that iconic light and dark grain.

 

Okoume is a very good boat building timber. It is a distinctive honey color, but because it is less dense, it is more prone to dings and dents. It also is always sold rotary sawn, so the grain is less attractive. I find that a very light glass, in the 2oz range, does wonders for the stuff. With care the glass is invisible and the surface is 100% tougher. It isn't a mahogany, so is more rot prone, but that is not an issue on a racing dinghy part that is coated in epoxy unless the poor dear has been allowed to go to seed. I use it all the time because it is lighter than sapele for the same thickness and so is stiffer. It also is less expensive.

SHC

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Progress has been a bit slow, spent a few hours today going through all the old hardware and the stuff we stripped off the boat. I cleaned everything up and to my girlfriends delight it's hanging on our laundry rack in my small condo.

 

I am drawing up a diagram and taking an inventory of parts I need and how I want to rig the boat and I was curious on ways I can simplify the rigging on the boat. A couple questions:

 

1. The drain hatches on the transom, I noticed that a lot of newer boats do not have them. How effective are these?

2. The mainsheet looks like it was a 4:1 systems. Running from the swivel, to the boom, to the traveler, boom, and terminating back at the traveler. Any reason to change this?

 

3. The lever vang, I like the idea of keeping it as much as I can. Will it be annoying how little vang we can use? Is there any other reason people stopped using them?

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The lever vang has limited travel--which can lead to taking a swim, if you get pinned when the boom can't rise to ease the sail on an overpowered reach. Of course the same exact thing can happen with a cascading vang, too, if you don't allow enough travel.

 

The other subtlety with vangs, either style, is that as you change the rake, the vang lengths change, and if you put in a clew reef (aka "flattening" reef) to lift the boom end, you need travel to handle that, too. The lever makes this adjustment most inconvenient as it cannot be done on the fly--unless you have a really long lever in which case it would accommodate it..

 

I never did the flattening thing on that old boat of mine, but of course I couldn't rake, either. I swam many times when pinned with the vang out but unable to rise sufficiently as the boom end dragged through the water. Of course I loved swimming back then :-)

 

My center mainsheet was 4:1 but I changed it to 3:1. My young skipper seems to handle it just fine. His hands got just as tired dealing with 4:1 I guess it is personal preference. Considering the end boom approach is 1:1 you really don't need 4:1.

 

Transom scuppers: If you dump and come up full of water and it is honking, the water goes right out through them and you get a lot of water out in a hurry. If you do a "scoop" recovery with the lighter person doing the centerboard ballet, there isn't much water in the boat and you won't even need the transom scuppers. Also in lighter conditions it won't drain out the transom.

 

I have been duct taping them lately. I mean to get around to making a new set of flaps. On my old boat, in relatively flat water, we used to sail with them open! I weighed only 185 and my helm was 80 lbs--you can't get away with it with normal crew weight.

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My experience with a simiilar age Parker was that the Transom Scuppers were a PITA to keep from leaking, and the only time we ever came up fully swamped was when we flipped near a lee shore and keeping the boat off the rocks was the paramount part of righting.

 

Another advantage of going to a 1:1, split-tail transom sheeting system - besides being easier on an older boom with newer sails, is that you can ditch the traverller completely. KISS is a principle I believe in , and the 5oh is plenty complex without the traveller. This is very easy to implement: Just a Y splice into the tail end of the tapered core of your mainsheet, and then removal of the traveller. It also reduces the amount of extra mainsheet floating around in the floor of the cockpit waiting to screw something up (KISS again)

 

As for the vang, the other part about the lever vang is what it does to your crew. with a lever vang, you have this nasty metal bit to bash your head against if a tack or gybe goes slightly wrong. As crew I'd much rather not have that.

 

If you ditch the traveller, the vang becomes increadibly important since you are now using the vang for leach control through the whole range of sheeting angle. So again this augers for replacing the "head banger"....

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Yes to everything Baltic says.

 

I'll add that it is quite important, no, it is essential, to have a working mast ram if you go to the end boom with vang sheeting. It is quite easy to overbend your mast--with a permanent bend--if you don't have some ram control. The ram is preferred over chocks because it acts almost directly in line with the gooseneck, reducing stress.

 

Or put it another way, if you don't have a ram, there will be no ability to tighten the leech without also bending the mast down low. This makes for crappy sailshape. I have some great photos of this from my own boat but they are too embarrassing.

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As for the vang, the other part about the lever vang is what it does to your crew. with a lever vang, you have this nasty metal bit to bash your head against if a tack or gybe goes slightly wrong. As crew I'd much rather not have that.

 

Alright, that's enough reason there to get rid of it.

 

I have not yet played with the mast ram to see how well it works.

 

And the 1:1 split trail sheeting sounds like a good alternative. It would clean up the cock pit too.

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My biggest debate though, is, the Rondar has a raised hoop 'midships mainsheet system. I hear a lot of people recommending a transom system for ease. I don't plan on all-out, high wind conditions... I like the center hoop, and think it would keep the cockpit relatively free of clutter. Thoughts?

 

My first 505 had the split-y mainsheet, but my second had the hoop and a centre-boom mainsheet. I decided to try it before switching it, and after a few sails, I'd never go back. I realize I'm very much in the minority, but the hoop has several advantages to me, so I'll comment.

 

(A) The transom area is now completely open for the skipper to swing the tiller extension through on a tack or gybe. No issues having to punch it through the narrow range of space afforded by the split y. That is, the spit y mainsheet has two vertical falls to the sheet purchase, both at the transom and swivel jammer, that create a small box for the hiking stick to pass. You get used to this when you sail with the split y sheet, but it's a great luxury not to have to do that.

 

( B) The 4:1 purchase in the centre of the boom makes it much easier for the skipper to control the boom through the gybe. You just grab the whole purchase somewhere in the middle, and flick it across. The tactile sensation that the skipper feels in this purchase when the mainsail unloads, mid-gybe, really helps the skipper steer through the gybe, especially in heavy air. In a split y sheet system, the skipper generally relies on the crew to flick the boom over with the vang, which is great if you have an experienced crew, but less than ideal otherwise. Obviously, it's the crew that would get the tactile feedback at the moment the boom unloads during a gybe, so the skipper won't ever get this bit of feedback.

 

( C) I'm interested to hear someone correct me if wrong, but I believe that the centre-boom sheet purchase would be much easier on the boom than the split y. You put pretty much 100% of the leech control into the boom vang with a split y system, but with the centre sheet (hoop or traveller), you inevitably get some leech control with the sheet, whether you want it or not (ie. the "not" would come in very light air, where after a certain point the mainsheet just tightens the leech without getting the boom any more centred - this is the job where the split y system shines brightest against the hoop). I would think dividing the leech control more evenly across the boom length would be much easier on the spar, instead of point loading 100% at the vang. I pull the vang on much harder with a split-y 505, than with a hoop & centre mainsheet.

 

(D) Racing in light air, when splitting tanks and driving deep, if some joker tries to roll you, the skipper grabs the entire centre purchase and sheets the boom to windward *instantly* to heat up, no more "hand-over-hand-over-hand" before you've trimmed to the course. Intantaneous ease, too, when that joker gets the idea, and returns to a more sensible course.

 

(E) Sometimes the hoop makes a great grab-bar during tacking & gybing.

 

So, each to their own. At a certain point, you just have to accept the compromises endemic to whatever system you choose, and learn to get the best out of it.

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...

(E) Sometimes the hoop makes a great grab-bar during tacking & gybing.

 

...

 

Yep!!

Was hoping you'd say that. Sometime back in the dinosaur era & I was racing 470s, they started getting mainsheet hoops. I thought it was dumb-looking until by chance I ended up sailing a boat with one. After that, I have alway thought it was a reasonable system. But it does (as pointed out) entail some compromises.... ...

 

FB- Doug

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I would agree on all the points on centre v transom sheeting, although you don't need a hoop, you can use a simple fixed bridle, or a 2:1 adjustable bridle. You lose E on that plan though...

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I disagree on the "easy on the boom" part. We went from a center to transom sheet system precisely because it was an older boat and when we switched to a mylar main, we were starting to bend the boom at the sheet purchase point in the center. By moving to a transom split Y sheet, 50% of the leech load is taken directly into the hull of the boat at the stern. This also allowed my skip to actually get more sheet on - at the time I think he weighed maybe 60kg soaking wet, since the load paths changed.

 

Agreed about the issue of gybes. I remember one sail (the one we swamped, where we launched from a sheltered weather ramp I was starting to set up for the hoist as we nosed out around the point into the breeze when he said "I've got a problem" And right at that moment a squall line hit.... turns out he had put the rudder in OVER the weather bridle and was having trouble pushing the nose up. So here we are blasting along in a gray out winter squal towards the lee shore a 1/2 mile away..... Fortunately the squall let up just as we got near the shore but fixing the rudder in that circumstance was a PITA....

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I also have a similar vintage Parker that was changed from mid-boom to transom sheeting.

I also had the issue BB had, really bad in that you cannot take the tiller off easily and cannot fix the override without that.

 

First time it happened it pulled the cassette off the pintles bending one in the process. Had to fly back to the dock pushing down on the tiller with top bent pintle only

 

Second time my son rigged and we had difficulty on the tack that had the wrap, but the other tack was fine. We double check always now

 

Another issue we had was when they previous owner moved from mid boom they took the traveler out of the boat and replaced it with a thwart. But they didnt reinforce the CB trunk below the mainsheet block which now pulls up on the trunk rather than the traveler. It pulled out this spring requireing some 5200 and epoxy work. Make sure the boat can take the new loads if there is no hoop or traveler bar to spread the loads out

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Is it good enough if transom sheeting is just tied to a stern or does it need some kind of stronger area back there?

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Well you want to split it in a Y bridle so that you can actually sheet the boom midships if needed. That puts the purchase point near the tank. So then the loadpath through the hull is through the tank, and that's the strongest part of the boat.

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Alright, so its been a few weeks since I last posted but time for an update.

 

The last few weeks have been spent prepping for hurricanes and winter storms, I also found the time to do some work:

1. Built a cradle for working on the boat and storing it for winter. The cradle allows me to get closer to the boat while its both upside down and right side up.

2. We stripped out loose hardware that obviously needed to be re bedded or replaced. This included the auto bailers which need new gaskets, the main sheet block, the centerboard gasket, and a few other pieces.

3. We took the deck off, the deck was unsalvagable, but it came off in pieces that we can use to create a template for a new deck.

4. The boat has been flipped and two more troubling issues have been found. One is a small hole that can be fixed, it might not be fair when we're done, but the boat will float. The other issue is a bit scarier. Inside the centerboard box the box around the centerboard seems to be separating from the wood. Forgive my poor articulate, I'm not sure what it is called, but here is a picture.

 

 

centerboard

 

Now for some questions...

 

1. Are the auto bailers worth replacing? Or paying the $25 for the service kits? Can I just use butyle tape and call it a day? It'll probably need to be replaced annually, but at least it would be easy...

2. Unfortunately when I flipped the boat I found two issues, not sure how major they are.

3. How should I go about fixing the centerboard box? Can I just inject a bunch of epoxy in there and wedge it closed?

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It seems like the trunk itself is well attached, I am more concerned about the inner bit of the trunk. The wood at the bottom doesn't look completely rotted, but whatever separates the wood from the centerboard is coming apart...

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Anyone have an old boom laying around? I contacted Proctor and Seldon to see if I could get a new boom end or to see if they had something laying around, and they've got nothing.

 

Boom diameter is 65mm, underside track is 6mm deep, sail track is 14mm.

 

boom End

boom end2

boomend3

 

I'm looking into just getting it welded, but I was told the weld wouldn't hold up because of the shape of the aluminum. Any other ideas? The quicker I get this out of the living room the better!

 

It's like an easter egg hunt at my condo, there are 5o5 components everywhere. The size of the boom doesn't leave many good hiding places.

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Sorry BB, I should have been more clear. Those are the dimensions of the current boom. I'm wondering if anyone has the end cap laying around on an unused boom.

 

Look at the image boomend3, the outhaul block has broken free of the end cap.

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There should be a ton of good AL 505 booms sitting in garages since the switch to carbon. I have one, but there's got to be a decent one near where you live up that way. Contact someone in the NE 505 fleet.

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AHH

Well that seems to be a pretty easy fix. I cannot tell from the image whetehr or not you are running a "boom end traveller" by hanning a block off the bale on the other side of the endcap fitting. If you are, then your problem is a bit more complex. But not that much.

 

Basically you need a way to have an end cap that can handle a wire sheave and potentially a sheetblock. Well a flat 1/4" piece of AL sized to the end of the boom would work. But then how to mount it inside the boom? I'd say that polyethylene/Delrin is your friend. Go get a hunk of Delrin/poly etc. that is as wide square as the inside diameter of your boom. Shouldn't be more than a few bucks. You only need it to be about 1" thick. You could do this with wood, but wood will expand with water so I'd go plastic

 

Now with a rasp, shape it so that it fits flush inside the boom. carve out a channel for the outhaul to run through. Bolt your end plate onto this fitting with 4 long wood screws (SS)

 

Mount a new wire sheeve onto the OUTSIDE of the plate. Lead the outhaul wire over this block. Insert your endpiece assembly into the boom end. and toss in 4 wood screws from the outside to hold it in place.

 

Drill a long limber hole in it to provide drainage.

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Baltic, that's a solid idea. Going to give it a shot tonight. Will post pictures.

 

Jesse, I shot out an email to the local fleet captains, but the sites seem really out of date.

 

The other option was going to involve cutting the boom a bit and dropping a wire sheave on the end of the boom in the sail track.

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Baltic, that's a solid idea. Going to give it a shot tonight. Will post pictures.

 

Jesse, I shot out an email to the local fleet captains, but the sites seem really out of date.

 

The other option was going to involve cutting the boom a bit and dropping a wire sheave on the end of the boom in the sail track.

 

Have you joined all usenet groups? Fleet 1, Fleet 40 (Annapolis), East Coast, etc? (then again, I got much more traffic regarding my centerboard, here, than I did there...)

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It's been awhile since I last posted, some work has been done, but not a ton. I have created a google website to help chronicle the work and aggregate resources.

 

https://sites.google.com/site/3995boston/

 

Some questions:

 

We have removed the deck, cleaned up the stringers, and prepped everything for a new deck and rub rails, but while we have access under the deck I wanted to inspect everything.

 

Furler - The furler turns great and looks solid, the bow plate looks like it is very well mounted. Anyone know anything about these furlers? Our furler was connected to the bow plate by a small plate which raised our furler about half an inch. I removed it and the furler still worked great and it sat very well in the bow.

 

Does anyone know the furler might have been raised? Seems a bit awkward to have another plate in there.

 

 

IMAG0162.jpgIMAG0157.jpg

 

work to be done here:

 

- Replace furler control lines (old ones are a bit chafed)

- Add gromits at the forward bulkhead to reduce chafing

 

... hope to get the deck on this week / weekend... will post pictures when that happens.

 

Next up:

- Foils

- Hull

- autobailers / transom flaps

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For now, I will stick with the current set up. Maybe when it comes to new sails I will fabricate a forestay and use a hank/hook on sail.

 

If I made my own forestay, or used the jib I could also add a jib halyard fine tune.

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I loved having that furler on my old boat. The "stuff luff" I have now is bollocks from a seamanship standpoint because you can't lower the sail. Some people have zippers so that they can.

 

FDs use furlers. There is nothing wrong with furlers. Just because "nobody uses furlers" need not convince you to do the same.

 

I I did everything to change my old 505 to be "just like everybody else" I'd have two problems:

 

1. Too much money/time spent re-rigging with little change in performance;

2. Which "everybody else" would I copy?

 

Looking forward to not only seeing your boat up and running but sailing it, too.

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Incidentally, my 5o5 (1976 Rondar) has almost exactly the same lever. However, in my case, it is part of the shroud tension system and is located forward of the mast and between the deck and the mast step.

 



Also, what is this? IMG_2507.JPG

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