moondance44 20 #101 Posted October 13, 2012 29 degrees in westerly? Fuck everything about this! wimp Dont forget LH doubles everything., It was really 15 deg Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dacapo 479 #102 Posted October 13, 2012 is there really only 18 boats??? el sucko Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
left hook 5 #103 Posted October 13, 2012 Nice day once the breeze came in. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SailRacer 43 #104 Posted October 14, 2012 Well over 60 deg in NC today on the line. Sail safe Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
incahoots 0 #105 Posted October 14, 2012 Good luck at manhasset bay fall series, maybe next year. I'm moving a boat in open ocean. Even though its gonna be nice tommarow, I'm bustn out down jacket, down sleeping bag and every piece of rain gear I have for when it pours monday . Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CIHack 0 #106 Posted October 14, 2012 How is it that EBYRA let Breakaway race wed nights at 84? without weight credit that would put them at 87 with the declared 145% on their certificate. Seems like they probably used a larger headsail on many occasions? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CJV 1 #107 Posted October 14, 2012 Nice day once the breeze came in. yes, it was, though on race one the 1-min break between starts threw all of our watches off and we were way early, had to go back and got stuffed... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bill's Sock Puppet 8 #108 Posted October 14, 2012 Nice day once the breeze came in. yes, it was, though on race one the 1-min break between starts threw all of our watches off and we were way early, had to go back and got stuffed... 6 minutes between starts is generally not necessary, but it was well communicated by the RC that that was their intention. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tenbow 0 #109 Posted October 14, 2012 How is it that EBYRA let Breakaway race wed nights at 84? without weight credit that would put them at 87 with the declared 145% on their certificate. Seems like they probably used a larger headsail on many occasions? EBYRA doesn't require a YRALIS PHRF certificate for Wednesday nights. For $10, they'll issue a rating for any configuration wanted excluding crew weight adjustments. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jesposito 56 #110 Posted October 14, 2012 Nice day once the breeze came in. yes, it was, though on race one the 1-min break between starts threw all of our watches off and we were way early, had to go back and got stuffed... 6 minutes between starts is generally not necessary, but it was well communicated by the RC that that was their intention. It is if you start behind the 105's Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jesposito 56 #111 Posted October 14, 2012 How is it that EBYRA let Breakaway race wed nights at 84? without weight credit that would put them at 87 with the declared 145% on their certificate. Seems like they probably used a larger headsail on many occasions? EBYRA doesn't require a YRALIS PHRF certificate for Wednesday nights. For $10, they'll issue a rating for any configuration wanted excluding crew weight adjustments. Right, and the senile cigerette smoking drunk arbitrally gives you a rating Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
left hook 5 #112 Posted October 14, 2012 Nice day once the breeze came in. yes, it was, though on race one the 1-min break between starts threw all of our watches off and we were way early, had to go back and got stuffed... flags govern? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bill's Sock Puppet 8 #113 Posted October 14, 2012 How is it that EBYRA let Breakaway race wed nights at 84? without weight credit that would put them at 87 with the declared 145% on their certificate. Seems like they probably used a larger headsail on many occasions? It's not just EBYRA, they had a rating of 84 in the YRA of LIS Championships as well.I'm sure it is just a typo, the 90 key looks just like the 84 key. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CJV 1 #114 Posted October 14, 2012 Nice day once the breeze came in. yes, it was, though on race one the 1-min break between starts threw all of our watches off and we were way early, had to go back and got stuffed... flags govern? Yes, of course... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FlyingScot310 0 #115 Posted October 14, 2012 How is it that EBYRA let Breakaway race wed nights at 84? without weight credit that would put them at 87 with the declared 145% on their certificate. Seems like they probably used a larger headsail on many occasions? It's not just EBYRA, they had a rating of 84 in the YRA of LIS Championships as well.I'm sure it is just a typo, the 90 key looks just like the 84 key. Breakaway is rated 90 for Manhasset Fall Series, 84 for AYC Fall Series and 87 for the Fall Classic. WTF? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cjsalustro 0 #116 Posted October 14, 2012 How is it that EBYRA let Breakaway race wed nights at 84? without weight credit that would put them at 87 with the declared 145% on their certificate. Seems like they probably used a larger headsail on many occasions? It's not just EBYRA, they had a rating of 84 in the YRA of LIS Championships as well.I'm sure it is just a typo, the 90 key looks just like the 84 key. Breakaway is rated 90 for Manhasset Fall Series, 84 for AYC Fall Series and 87 for the Fall Classic. WTF? Call John, asap. A+ on the weather Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tenbow 0 #117 Posted October 14, 2012 How is it that EBYRA let Breakaway race wed nights at 84? without weight credit that would put them at 87 with the declared 145% on their certificate. Seems like they probably used a larger headsail on many occasions? It's not just EBYRA, they had a rating of 84 in the YRA of LIS Championships as well.I'm sure it is just a typo, the 90 key looks just like the 84 key. Breakaway is rated 90 for Manhasset Fall Series, 84 for AYC Fall Series and 87 for the Fall Classic. WTF? The fall classic used distance ratings and AYC let the 36.7s race level at 84 since they couldn't get enough boats on the line for a one-design start. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quecatsofai 4 #118 Posted October 14, 2012 photos photos Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bill's Sock Puppet 8 #119 Posted October 14, 2012 photos photos quecatsofai, thanks for the photos. I think Kenny G has black patch on top of her mainsail so it looks like square top sail from a distance . . . Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CIHack 0 #120 Posted October 14, 2012 How is it that EBYRA let Breakaway race wed nights at 84? without weight credit that would put them at 87 with the declared 145% on their certificate. Seems like they probably used a larger headsail on many occasions? It's not just EBYRA, they had a rating of 84 in the YRA of LIS Championships as well.I'm sure it is just a typo, the 90 key looks just like the 84 key. Breakaway is rated 90 for Manhasset Fall Series, 84 for AYC Fall Series and 87 for the Fall Classic. WTF? The fall classic used distance ratings and AYC let the 36.7s race level at 84 since they couldn't get enough boats on the line for a one-design start. Begging everyone's pardon, AYC, race committees, best friends, asshole buddies, whatever, the certificate is the certificate and the club or RC cannot "let" any boat race not in accordance with it's certificate under PHRF. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
John Drake 0 #121 Posted October 14, 2012 photos photos quecatsofai, thanks for the photos. I think Kenny G has black patch on top of her mainsail so it looks like square top sail from a distance . . . Yes, "Kenny G" sailing with North Sails...which seems very odd to me. You would think the boat would have been outfitted with the company brand. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CIHack 0 #122 Posted October 14, 2012 Unless of course it is EBYRA Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
left hook 5 #123 Posted October 15, 2012 According to my personal, extrasensory, waaaaaaaaaah-ne-mometer it blew 35 today. Good time on the distance race, though the ratio of beating:running was upsettingly bad... The curse of the downwind flyer - thankfully the company didn't suck. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shodan 0 #124 Posted October 15, 2012 How is it that EBYRA let Breakaway race wed nights at 84? without weight credit that would put them at 87 with the declared 145% on their certificate. Seems like they probably used a larger headsail on many occasions? CI Hack, dont know the answer but I suspect from your question that you dont understand the rating system. It is a disadvantage to them to have the lower rating on wed nights. The higher the number the more time faster boats would have to give them and the less time they would have to give slower boats. I think 84 may be the standard 36.7 configuration for one design and allows the standard class #1 headsail. When sailing some phrf they can get a credit for smaller headsails or weight, I think. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CIHack 0 #125 Posted October 15, 2012 How is it that EBYRA let Breakaway race wed nights at 84? without weight credit that would put them at 87 with the declared 145% on their certificate. Seems like they probably used a larger headsail on many occasions? CI Hack, dont know the answer but I suspect from your question that you dont understand the rating system. It is a disadvantage to them to have the lower rating on wed nights. The higher the number the more time faster boats would have to give them and the less time they would have to give slower boats. I think 84 may be the standard 36.7 configuration for one design and allows the standard class #1 headsail. When sailing some phrf they can get a credit for smaller headsails or weight, I think. Actually it had to do with sail size. You would be correct if they sailed at a lower rating with the same sail. I hardly think that is the case. To be perfectly clear I a almost positive that 84 or 87 is with a 155% headsail and 90 is with a 145%. YRA LIS members can view certificates and the copy that was given to me shows a distance rating of 87 and L/W of 90 with +3 for 145% and +3 for max weight of 1500 pounds. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
left hook 5 #126 Posted October 15, 2012 According to my personal, extrasensory, waaaaaaaaaah-ne-mometer it blew 35 today. Good time on the distance race, though the ratio of beating:running was upsettingly bad... The curse of the downwind flyer - thankfully the company didn't suck. Listen, you desperate attention whore, before you try to make your asinine bragging into a cute joke about yourself you might try apologizing for the deranged harangue you launched on the dozens who pointed out the absurdity of your "building to the 40s" nonsense. Do us all a favor and shut up. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CJV 1 #127 Posted October 15, 2012 Great start to the week. Is it Saturday yet? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FlyingScot310 0 #128 Posted October 15, 2012 How is it that EBYRA let Breakaway race wed nights at 84? without weight credit that would put them at 87 with the declared 145% on their certificate. Seems like they probably used a larger headsail on many occasions? It's not just EBYRA, they had a rating of 84 in the YRA of LIS Championships as well.I'm sure it is just a typo, the 90 key looks just like the 84 key. Breakaway is rated 90 for Manhasset Fall Series, 84 for AYC Fall Series and 87 for the Fall Classic. WTF? Call John, asap. A+ on the weather Grazie Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sailman 6 #129 Posted October 15, 2012 is there really only 18 boats??? el sucko Disappointing show by MBYC. Been doing this regatta since the early '80s and the club has always been a welcoming place with an excellent spread for all the racers afterwards. Now we are out on the patio with a ration of undercooked sausages. Well done! Looks like Riverside's management has taken over MBYC. On the water, a distance race in great fall conditions? Since when is 11.8 miles a distance race? I am starting to see why this series is going the way of the dodo. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
House Salad 4 #130 Posted October 15, 2012 is there really only 18 boats??? el sucko Disappointing show by MBYC. Been doing this regatta since the early '80s and the club has always been a welcoming place with an excellent spread for all the racers afterwards. Now we are out on the patio with a ration of undercooked sausages. Well done! Looks like Riverside's management has taken over MBYC. On the water, a distance race in great fall conditions? Since when is 11.8 miles a distance race? I am starting to see why this series is going the way of the dodo. I sent your comments to everyone at Manhasset Bay. For your information the long distance race has had the same courses for many years. Compared to a 3.5 mile windward leeward, yes, 11.8 miles is a distance race. The brautwurst was just tasty. I'm sorry you're not happy. We aim to please. We are very concerned why there is not more participation. There are many reasons for the lack of entries. Some of them are completely out of our hands. We will be doing what it takes to turn this event around. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Port Tack Approach 0 #131 Posted October 15, 2012 is there really only 18 boats??? el sucko Disappointing show by MBYC. Been doing this regatta since the early '80s and the club has always been a welcoming place with an excellent spread for all the racers afterwards. Now we are out on the patio with a ration of undercooked sausages. Well done! Looks like Riverside's management has taken over MBYC. On the water, a distance race in great fall conditions? Since when is 11.8 miles a distance race? I am starting to see why this series is going the way of the dodo. I sent your comments to everyone at Manhasset Bay. For your information the long distance race has had the same courses for many years. Compared to a 3.5 mile windward leeward, yes, 11.8 miles is a distance race. The brautwurst was just tasty. I'm sorry you're not happy. We aim to please. We are very concerned why there is not more participation. There are many reasons for the lack of entries. Some of them are completely out of our hands. We will be doing what it takes to turn this event around. Kuddos to RC for getting those races in on Saturday. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Snaggletooth 1,362 #132 Posted October 15, 2012 is there really only 18 boats??? el sucko Disappointing show by MBYC. Been doing this regatta since the early '80s and the club has always been a welcoming place with an excellent spread for all the racers afterwards. Now we are out on the patio with a ration of undercooked sausages. Well done! Looks like Riverside's management has taken over MBYC. On the water, a distance race in great fall conditions? Since when is 11.8 miles a distance race? I am starting to see why this series is going the way of the dodo. I sent your comments to everyone at Manhasset Bay. For your information the long distance race has had the same courses for many years. Compared to a 3.5 mile windward leeward, yes, 11.8 miles is a distance race. The brautwurst was just tasty. I'm sorry you're not happy. We aim to please. We are very concerned why there is not more participation. There are many reasons for the lack of entries. Some of them are completely out of our hands. We will be doing what it takes to turn this event around. You rocke HS! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FlyingScot310 0 #133 Posted October 15, 2012 is there really only 18 boats??? el sucko Disappointing show by MBYC. Been doing this regatta since the early '80s and the club has always been a welcoming place with an excellent spread for all the racers afterwards. Now we are out on the patio with a ration of undercooked sausages. Well done! Looks like Riverside's management has taken over MBYC. On the water, a distance race in great fall conditions? Since when is 11.8 miles a distance race? I am starting to see why this series is going the way of the dodo. I sent your comments to everyone at Manhasset Bay. For your information the long distance race has had the same courses for many years. Compared to a 3.5 mile windward leeward, yes, 11.8 miles is a distance race. The brautwurst was just tasty. I'm sorry you're not happy. We aim to please. We are very concerned why there is not more participation. There are many reasons for the lack of entries. Some of them are completely out of our hands. We will be doing what it takes to turn this event around. Kuddos to RC for getting those races in on Saturday. +1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
footlong 31 #134 Posted October 15, 2012 Great job getting in 2 races Saturday, but I am not a fan of having a distance race when we could have had 3 or 4 windward-leewards. Part of the reason for the low attendance is the J44's having their own regatta right next door at Sea Cliff. I heard their RC work was really crappy. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Old Motel 0 #135 Posted October 15, 2012 MHYC doing a great job. Got 2 good races in on Sat good breeze short legs for the WL athletic crowd and a long race in big breeze that allowed everyone to enjoy a beautiful day without breaking a lot of stuff or hurting or scaring the crew. The shore party was fine, being outside is much better than inside. Drinks and food ( and hot soup) was readily available. Very quick launch service and free moorings. I think all things considered I say Thank You for again offering an opportunity to race in sporty Fall conditions by a very friendly and accommidating YC. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shodan 0 #136 Posted October 15, 2012 How is it that EBYRA let Breakaway race wed nights at 84? without weight credit that would put them at 87 with the declared 145% on their certificate. Seems like they probably used a larger headsail on many occasions? CI Hack, dont know the answer but I suspect from your question that you dont understand the rating system. It is a disadvantage to them to have the lower rating on wed nights. The higher the number the more time faster boats would have to give them and the less time they would have to give slower boats. I think 84 may be the standard 36.7 configuration for one design and allows the standard class #1 headsail. When sailing some phrf they can get a credit for smaller headsails or weight, I think. Actually it had to do with sail size. You would be correct if they sailed at a lower rating with the same sail. I hardly think that is the case. To be perfectly clear I a almost positive that 84 or 87 is with a 155% headsail and 90 is with a 145%. YRA LIS members can view certificates and the copy that was given to me shows a distance rating of 87 and L/W of 90 with +3 for 145% and +3 for max weight of 1500 pounds. Ok, so It sounds like you are saying they are doing it right.Sailing with a larger 155 and a lower rating (84) and when using the higher rating they sail with a 145. it also sound like they are getting a credit +3 for weight at some regattas and the distance rating of 87. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
House Salad 4 #137 Posted October 15, 2012 Working on Photos. Hope to have a site going soon. Got more than 2000 to go through. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
moondance44 20 #138 Posted October 15, 2012 is there really only 18 boats??? el sucko Disappointing show by MBYC. Been doing this regatta since the early '80s and the club has always been a welcoming place with an excellent spread for all the racers afterwards. Now we are out on the patio with a ration of undercooked sausages. Well done! Looks like Riverside's management has taken over MBYC. On the water, a distance race in great fall conditions? Since when is 11.8 miles a distance race? I am starting to see why this series is going the way of the dodo. I sent your comments to everyone at Manhasset Bay. For your information the long distance race has had the same courses for many years. Compared to a 3.5 mile windward leeward, yes, 11.8 miles is a distance race. The brautwurst was just tasty. I'm sorry you're not happy. We aim to please. We are very concerned why there is not more participation. There are many reasons for the lack of entries. Some of them are completely out of our hands. We will be doing what it takes to turn this event around. Kuddos to RC for getting those races in on Saturday. what? who cares don't you choose your regattas based on the quality of the free food afterward? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sailman 6 #139 Posted October 15, 2012 is there really only 18 boats??? el sucko Disappointing show by MBYC. Been doing this regatta since the early '80s and the club has always been a welcoming place with an excellent spread for all the racers afterwards. Now we are out on the patio with a ration of undercooked sausages. Well done! Looks like Riverside's management has taken over MBYC. On the water, a distance race in great fall conditions? Since when is 11.8 miles a distance race? I am starting to see why this series is going the way of the dodo. I sent your comments to everyone at Manhasset Bay. For your information the long distance race has had the same courses for many years. Compared to a 3.5 mile windward leeward, yes, 11.8 miles is a distance race. The brautwurst was just tasty. I'm sorry you're not happy. We aim to please. We are very concerned why there is not more participation. There are many reasons for the lack of entries. Some of them are completely out of our hands. We will be doing what it takes to turn this event around. Kuddos to RC for getting those races in on Saturday. what? who cares don't you choose your regattas based on the quality of the free food afterward? Using your standards there was only one protein, unless you count the sandwiches. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
moondance44 20 #140 Posted October 15, 2012 That does suck! I understand the Cab was a juvenile vintage and served chilled as well what happened at the J44 regatta? why didnt these guys just do MBYC with their own start? not very neighborly Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SailRacer 43 #141 Posted October 15, 2012 re J44's - It is all about Dr. Norm and his club (only hearsay but, worth noting). Sail safe! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
left hook 5 #142 Posted October 15, 2012 Great job getting in 2 races Saturday, but I am not a fan of having a distance race when we could have had 3 or 4 windward-leewards. Part of the reason for the low attendance is the J44's having their own regatta right next door at Sea Cliff. I heard their RC work was really crappy. Or keep the short distance race and then get everybody going in a windward leeward race that you'd dropped the marks for while the distance race was going on. No sense torpedoing an afternoon of great breeze. There's no reason that any boat should be hitting the dock at 2 when there's a steady 10-12 blowing on the sound and a race committee to set/run races. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dopo 3 #143 Posted October 15, 2012 is there really only 18 boats??? el sucko Disappointing show by MBYC. Been doing this regatta since the early '80s and the club has always been a welcoming place with an excellent spread for all the racers afterwards. Now we are out on the patio with a ration of undercooked sausages. Well done! Looks like Riverside's management has taken over MBYC. On the water, a distance race in great fall conditions? Since when is 11.8 miles a distance race? I am starting to see why this series is going the way of the dodo. I sent your comments to everyone at Manhasset Bay. For your information the long distance race has had the same courses for many years. Compared to a 3.5 mile windward leeward, yes, 11.8 miles is a distance race. The brautwurst was just tasty. I'm sorry you're not happy. We aim to please. We are very concerned why there is not more participation. There are many reasons for the lack of entries. Some of them are completely out of our hands. We will be doing what it takes to turn this event around. Please do not make it out that sail man speaks for all of us, I enjoy the marm to mark change from the w/l. it could be sailman did not do well, and the Sausages were great! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
titanuranus 0 #144 Posted October 15, 2012 re J44's - It is all about Dr. Norm and his club (only hearsay but, worth noting). Sail safe! Maybe Norm heard they were serving sausgaes and withdrew? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sailman 6 #145 Posted October 15, 2012 is there really only 18 boats??? el sucko Disappointing show by MBYC. Been doing this regatta since the early '80s and the club has always been a welcoming place with an excellent spread for all the racers afterwards. Now we are out on the patio with a ration of undercooked sausages. Well done! Looks like Riverside's management has taken over MBYC. On the water, a distance race in great fall conditions? Since when is 11.8 miles a distance race? I am starting to see why this series is going the way of the dodo. I sent your comments to everyone at Manhasset Bay. For your information the long distance race has had the same courses for many years. Compared to a 3.5 mile windward leeward, yes, 11.8 miles is a distance race. The brautwurst was just tasty. I'm sorry you're not happy. We aim to please. We are very concerned why there is not more participation. There are many reasons for the lack of entries. Some of them are completely out of our hands. We will be doing what it takes to turn this event around. Please do not make it out that sail man speaks for all of us, I enjoy the marm to mark change from the w/l. it could be sailman did not do well, and the Sausages were great! We had a great race. Sailed short handed first across the line and lost out to Dreadlocks by 29 seconds, well done on the their part. My point was 12 miles wasn't much for the breeze we had, make it a 20 miler. The food was what it was, its not the reason to attend this or any regatta, but compared to how the club has treated the racers in the past it has changed. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RumLine 54 #146 Posted October 15, 2012 That does suck! I understand the Cab was a juvenile vintage and served chilled as well what happened at the J44 regatta? why didnt these guys just do MBYC with their own start? not very neighborly The J44s were at Sea Cliff because one of the owners begged the class to have a regatta there. The race committee lacked experience in running races for large keel boats, and it showed, but they were gracious hosts and I think all involved really appreciated the effort of the volunteers. It would have been nice to have more than 5 boats out, but as always there was some tight racing in the front of the fleet. From what I gather, some of the J44 owners don't enjoy MBYC Fall Series so it's usually not on the class calendar. http://www.seacliffyc.org/Information/Regattas%20and%20Sailing/Regatta%20Information/J44_Fall_Series_2012_Final-%281%29.aspx Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
House Salad 4 #147 Posted October 15, 2012 is there really only 18 boats??? el sucko Disappointing show by MBYC. Been doing this regatta since the early '80s and the club has always been a welcoming place with an excellent spread for all the racers afterwards. Now we are out on the patio with a ration of undercooked sausages. Well done! Looks like Riverside's management has taken over MBYC. On the water, a distance race in great fall conditions? Since when is 11.8 miles a distance race? I am starting to see why this series is going the way of the dodo. I sent your comments to everyone at Manhasset Bay. For your information the long distance race has had the same courses for many years. Compared to a 3.5 mile windward leeward, yes, 11.8 miles is a distance race. The brautwurst was just tasty. I'm sorry you're not happy. We aim to please. We are very concerned why there is not more participation. There are many reasons for the lack of entries. Some of them are completely out of our hands. We will be doing what it takes to turn this event around. Please do not make it out that sail man speaks for all of us, I enjoy the marm to mark change from the w/l. it could be sailman did not do well, and the Sausages were great! We had a great race. Sailed short handed first across the line and lost out to Dreadlocks by 29 seconds, well done on the their part. My point was 12 miles wasn't much for the breeze we had, make it a 20 miler. The food was what it was, its not the reason to attend this or any regatta, but compared to how the club has treated the racers in the past it has changed. Manhasset Bay Commodore Dan Brown commented as follows "We acknowledge a poor food showing at the event on Saturday afternoon which was fully corrected for on Sunday. The second weekend will also have great food and beer as well. We look forward to a great second weekend." Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
twister 0 #148 Posted October 15, 2012 The J44s were at Sea Cliff because one of the owners begged the class to have a regatta there. The race committee lacked experience in running races for large keel boats, and it showed, but they were gracious hosts and I think all involved really appreciated the effort of the volunteers. It would have been nice to have more than 5 boats out, but as always there was some tight racing in the front of the fleet. From what I gather, some of the J44 owners don't enjoy MBYC Fall Series so it's usually not on the class calendar. Acknowledged! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
btbotfa 4 #149 Posted October 15, 2012 How is it that EBYRA let Breakaway race wed nights at 84? without weight credit that would put them at 87 with the declared 145% on their certificate. Seems like they probably used a larger headsail on many occasions? CI Hack, dont know the answer but I suspect from your question that you dont understand the rating system. It is a disadvantage to them to have the lower rating on wed nights. The higher the number the more time faster boats would have to give them and the less time they would have to give slower boats. I think 84 may be the standard 36.7 configuration for one design and allows the standard class #1 headsail. When sailing some phrf they can get a credit for smaller headsails or weight, I think. Actually it had to do with sail size. You would be correct if they sailed at a lower rating with the same sail. I hardly think that is the case. To be perfectly clear I a almost positive that 84 or 87 is with a 155% headsail and 90 is with a 145%. YRA LIS members can view certificates and the copy that was given to me shows a distance rating of 87 and L/W of 90 with +3 for 145% and +3 for max weight of 1500 pounds. Ok, so It sounds like you are saying they are doing it right.Sailing with a larger 155 and a lower rating (84) and when using the higher rating they sail with a 145. it also sound like they are getting a credit +3 for weight at some regattas and the distance rating of 87. Bottom line is you are issued a YRALIS cert for the season, it has a distance rating and a W/L rating and the configurations you declare on your cert to get those numbers are the configurations you should sail with or else you are in violation of your cert. You only get one number, its not your choice to look at a weather forecast or your competition and say, let's go with the bigger headsail and pick a different number for this regatta. And its up to the race committee, the organizing authority for the race, to enforce that rule. What EBYRA does is beyond logic. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
moondance44 20 #150 Posted October 15, 2012 You think Santana/USMMA could have done better if they weren't busy practicing Gangnam dancing? Our tax dollars at work! http://www.brobible....y-gangnam-style Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jesposito 56 #151 Posted October 15, 2012 You think Santana/USMMA could have done better if they weren't busy practicing Gangnam dancing? Our tax dollars at work! http://www.brobible....y-gangnam-style Hey, That's at least better than them using the 3DL light #1 as a sun shade hanging over the spin pole while they slept on other sails staying out of the sun during AYC fall series Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FlyingScot310 0 #152 Posted October 15, 2012 You think Santana/USMMA could have done better if they weren't busy practicing Gangnam dancing? Our tax dollars at work! http://www.brobible....y-gangnam-style Imagine the Hustler crew pulling those moves out! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
moondance44 20 #153 Posted October 15, 2012 There aren't enough chiropractors that could save them. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kevlar 18 #154 Posted October 15, 2012 You think Santana/USMMA could have done better if they weren't busy practicing Gangnam dancing? Our tax dollars at work! http://www.brobible....y-gangnam-style Was that why they almost hit a couple of boats in the starting area/prestart? I didn't see any dancing. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
left hook 5 #155 Posted October 15, 2012 You think Santana/USMMA could have done better if they weren't busy practicing Gangnam dancing? Our tax dollars at work! http://www.brobible....y-gangnam-style Was that why they almost hit a couple of boats in the starting area/prestart? I didn't see any dancing. The only dancing was from the people in the back of the boats they almost hit trying to avoid getting a colonoscopy from their spin pole.... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CJV 1 #156 Posted October 15, 2012 We had to dance around the Red JAM boat that was OCS in class 5. Think that's the closest up we've seen Hustler! 'Course, it didn't last... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CIHack 0 #157 Posted October 15, 2012 How is it that EBYRA let Breakaway race wed nights at 84? without weight credit that would put them at 87 with the declared 145% on their certificate. Seems like they probably used a larger headsail on many occasions? CI Hack, dont know the answer but I suspect from your question that you dont understand the rating system. It is a disadvantage to them to have the lower rating on wed nights. The higher the number the more time faster boats would have to give them and the less time they would have to give slower boats. I think 84 may be the standard 36.7 configuration for one design and allows the standard class #1 headsail. When sailing some phrf they can get a credit for smaller headsails or weight, I think. Actually it had to do with sail size. You would be correct if they sailed at a lower rating with the same sail. I hardly think that is the case. To be perfectly clear I a almost positive that 84 or 87 is with a 155% headsail and 90 is with a 145%. YRA LIS members can view certificates and the copy that was given to me shows a distance rating of 87 and L/W of 90 with +3 for 145% and +3 for max weight of 1500 pounds. Ok, so It sounds like you are saying they are doing it right.Sailing with a larger 155 and a lower rating (84) and when using the higher rating they sail with a 145. it also sound like they are getting a credit +3 for weight at some regattas and the distance rating of 87. except that you cannot switch ratings at will! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MikeR 7 #158 Posted October 15, 2012 How is it that EBYRA let Breakaway race wed nights at 84? without weight credit that would put them at 87 with the declared 145% on their certificate. Seems like they probably used a larger headsail on many occasions? CI Hack, dont know the answer but I suspect from your question that you dont understand the rating system. It is a disadvantage to them to have the lower rating on wed nights. The higher the number the more time faster boats would have to give them and the less time they would have to give slower boats. I think 84 may be the standard 36.7 configuration for one design and allows the standard class #1 headsail. When sailing some phrf they can get a credit for smaller headsails or weight, I think. Actually it had to do with sail size. You would be correct if they sailed at a lower rating with the same sail. I hardly think that is the case. To be perfectly clear I a almost positive that 84 or 87 is with a 155% headsail and 90 is with a 145%. YRA LIS members can view certificates and the copy that was given to me shows a distance rating of 87 and L/W of 90 with +3 for 145% and +3 for max weight of 1500 pounds. Ok, so It sounds like you are saying they are doing it right.Sailing with a larger 155 and a lower rating (84) and when using the higher rating they sail with a 145. it also sound like they are getting a credit +3 for weight at some regattas and the distance rating of 87. Bottom line is you are issued a YRALIS cert for the season, it has a distance rating and a W/L rating and the configurations you declare on your cert to get those numbers are the configurations you should sail with or else you are in violation of your cert. You only get one number, its not your choice to look at a weather forecast or your competition and say, let's go with the bigger headsail and pick a different number for this regatta. And its up to the race committee, the organizing authority for the race, to enforce that rule. What EBYRA does is beyond logic. Logic-EBYRA? Huh? Cheers, MikeR Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bill's Sock Puppet 8 #159 Posted October 16, 2012 According to my personal, extrasensory, waaaaaaaaaah-ne-mometer it blew 35 today. Good time on the distance race, though the ratio of beating:running was upsettingly bad... The curse of the downwind flyer - thankfully the company didn't suck. I'm not sure what scale Left Hook uses, but I don't think I saw a gust more than 28 kts, high average about 22 i guess.Are our instruments that far out of calibration or is Left Hook prone to exaggeration? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
left hook 5 #160 Posted October 16, 2012 According to my personal, extrasensory, waaaaaaaaaah-ne-mometer it blew 35 today. Good time on the distance race, though the ratio of beating:running was upsettingly bad... The curse of the downwind flyer - thankfully the company didn't suck. I'm not sure what scale Left Hook uses, but I don't think I saw a gust more than 28 kts, high average about 22 i guess.Are our instruments that far out of calibration or is Left Hook prone to exaggeration? Or I'm just poking fun at all of the bullshit from the gearbuster thread. lighten up. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bill's Sock Puppet 8 #161 Posted October 16, 2012 Begging everyone's pardon, AYC, race committees, best friends, asshole buddies, whatever, the certificate is the certificate and the club or RC cannot "let" any boat race not in accordance with it's certificate under PHRF. It is becoming a pattern that the YRALIS PHRF Committee, the Organizing Clubs, the Race Committees, and the Protest Committees don't want to question or enforce PHRF ratings on Long Island Sound. I hear excuses like "well, if we change their rating then they won't race" or "participation is so low, we don't want to be too discriminating" or "the owner made a mistake." Most of us understand the Rules and adhere to them. We expect the Rules to be enforced by those that wrote the Rules. Somehow the YRALIS PHRF Committee has a loose interpretation of these Rules for some boats but not for all. Rather than pandering to a few boats with questionable ratings or certificates, they should consider the implications of their lack of action, they can figure the rest of us expect no less than conformity to the Rules. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Snaggletooth 1,362 #162 Posted October 16, 2012 I hear excuses like "well, if we change their rating then they won't race" or "participation is so low, we don't want to be too discriminating" or "the owner made a mistake." I thick in generale moste peopel dointe wante be the badde guye. Thicking being nice and lookng the orthere waye wille help. Moiste time juste the oppasite happends, biddere numberes laeving the sporte do to lacke of adherents to the riules. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jesposito 56 #163 Posted October 16, 2012 Begging everyone's pardon, AYC, race committees, best friends, asshole buddies, whatever, the certificate is the certificate and the club or RC cannot "let" any boat race not in accordance with it's certificate under PHRF. It is becoming a pattern that the YRALIS PHRF Committee, the Organizing Clubs, the Race Committees, and the Protest Committees don't want to question or enforce PHRF ratings on Long Island Sound. I hear excuses like "well, if we change their rating then they won't race" or "participation is so low, we don't want to be too discriminating" or "the owner made a mistake." Most of us understand the Rules and adhere to them. We expect the Rules to be enforced by those that wrote the Rules. Somehow the YRALIS PHRF Committee has a loose interpretation of these Rules for some boats but not for all. Rather than pandering to a few boats with questionable ratings or certificates, they should consider the implications of their lack of action, they can figure the rest of us expect no less than conformity to the Rules. You are correct Bill, how about the PHRF comm changing the rating of the J70 to 117 after only sailing 5 races. I guess if you are on the committee and own one there are benefits. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jesposito 56 #164 Posted October 16, 2012 I hear excuses like "well, if we change their rating then they won't race" or "participation is so low, we don't want to be too discriminating" or "the owner made a mistake." I thick in generale moste peopel dointe wante be the badde guye. Thicking being nice and lookng the orthere waye wille help. Moiste time juste the oppasite happends, biddere numberes laeving the sporte do to lacke of adherents to the riules. +1 The biggest rule that is violated is the weight limit. The PHRF comm don't give a shit about. They want us being the bad guys. There is a boat in my class at Manhasset that is over the limit and they admit it. But they are all friends and don't care. I personally don't care that they are, but I'm sure other boats do. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
btbotfa 4 #165 Posted October 16, 2012 I hear excuses like "well, if we change their rating then they won't race" or "participation is so low, we don't want to be too discriminating" or "the owner made a mistake." I thick in generale moste peopel dointe wante be the badde guye. Thicking being nice and lookng the orthere waye wille help. Moiste time juste the oppasite happends, biddere numberes laeving the sporte do to lacke of adherents to the riules. +1 The biggest rule that is violated is the weight limit. The PHRF comm don't give a shit about. They want us being the bad guys. There is a boat in my class at Manhasset that is over the limit and they admit it. But they are all friends and don't care. I personally don't care that they are, but I'm sure other boats do. PHRF committee is not the cop--they issue their rating (whether it is fair or not is a different issue) and it is up to the individual regatta race committee to enforce that folks are complying with their certs-you all know how that turned out in the ALIR waiting for organizing authorities to do their job-nobody likes to be the bad guy, of course, and most of us assume, under Rule 2, that our competition is in compliance with their cert and engaging in "Fair Sailing" but that is definitely not the case. Not sure what the answer is .... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
moondance44 20 #166 Posted October 16, 2012 I hear excuses like "well, if we change their rating then they won't race" or "participation is so low, we don't want to be too discriminating" or "the owner made a mistake." I thick in generale moste peopel dointe wante be the badde guye. Thicking being nice and lookng the orthere waye wille help. Moiste time juste the oppasite happends, biddere numberes laeving the sporte do to lacke of adherents to the riules. +1 The biggest rule that is violated is the weight limit. The PHRF comm don't give a shit about. They want us being the bad guys. There is a boat in my class at Manhasset that is over the limit and they admit it. But they are all friends and don't care. I personally don't care that they are, but I'm sure other boats do. I dont mind the weight limit so much. Especially being a full figured gal. Not everyone can get regular crew like you. (The same 5 meatballs for 25 years and a kid from college with no friends). Maybe my kid is home from college and wants to sail for a day, whatever. But there is little enforcement of phrf certificates + rules by most clubs. Thats where the problem is. The YRALIS is not an enforcer but when they hear about this stuff they should do something like nasty name calling, or disallow the results for season trophies. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
btbotfa 4 #167 Posted October 16, 2012 I hear excuses like "well, if we change their rating then they won't race" or "participation is so low, we don't want to be too discriminating" or "the owner made a mistake." I thick in generale moste peopel dointe wante be the badde guye. Thicking being nice and lookng the orthere waye wille help. Moiste time juste the oppasite happends, biddere numberes laeving the sporte do to lacke of adherents to the riules. +1 The biggest rule that is violated is the weight limit. The PHRF comm don't give a shit about. They want us being the bad guys. There is a boat in my class at Manhasset that is over the limit and they admit it. But they are all friends and don't care. I personally don't care that they are, but I'm sure other boats do. I dont mind the weight limit so much. Especially being a full figured gal. Not everyone can get regular crew like you. (The same 5 meatballs for 25 years and a kid from college with no friends). Maybe my kid is home from college and wants to sail for a day, whatever. But there is little enforcement of phrf certificates + rules by most clubs. Thats where the problem is. The YRALIS is not an enforcer but when they hear about this stuff they should do something like nasty name calling, or disallow the results for season trophies. Or have a special moosehead or something for the race committee that commits the most egregious act of looking the other way.... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Snaggletooth 1,362 #168 Posted October 16, 2012 Or have a special moosehead or something for the race committee that commits the most egregious act of looking the other way.... The MC shoud paye foure suche good idease!!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
moondance44 20 #169 Posted October 16, 2012 Or have a special moosehead or something for the race committee that commits the most egregious act of looking the other way.... The MC shoud paye foure suche good idease!!! Or a special award to a competitor who dosnt use the protest system properly and sullies the good name of Long Island's most well respected yachtsman! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Snaggletooth 1,362 #170 Posted October 16, 2012 Or have a special moosehead or something for the race committee that commits the most egregious act of looking the other way.... The MC shoud paye foure suche good idease!!! Or a special award to a competitor who dosnt use the protest system properly and sullies the good name of Long Island's most well respected yachtsman! attempted at redirrecte... ?? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
John Drake 0 #171 Posted October 16, 2012 But there is little enforcement of phrf certificates + rules by most clubs. Thats where the problem is. The YRALIS is not an enforcer but when they hear about this stuff they should do something like nasty name calling, or disallow the results for season trophies. That isn't really true and while BTBOTFA has taken some heat in recent past over a certain protest disallowed, it was the failure of the PHRF Rating Committee to follow the RRS that lead to that debacle. Rule 78 is pretty clear that if it is brought to the attention that a competitor is not in adherence with their cert, that the "class measurer" will inform the OA of the event or events that a boat is found to not be in compliance. The onus then falls on the OA(s) to protest the boat (under 60.3 I think it is but don't have the book in front of me). So there is a means of enforcement. It is just not being followed.The weight limit is a diffficult one in some regards. I sort of understand why EBYRA ignores this credit. While it is unacceptable that boats sail overweight on a regular weekend series in violation of their certs, when it comes to beer can races where crew just sort of show up, it is hard to tell folks to just go home. It sort of goes against the spirit of beer can racing, which is to go out and have a little fun mid-week. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
btbotfa 4 #172 Posted October 16, 2012 Or have a special moosehead or something for the race committee that commits the most egregious act of looking the other way.... The MC shoud paye foure suche good idease!!! Or a special award to a competitor who dosnt use the protest system properly and sullies the good name of Long Island's most well respected yachtsman! attempted at redirrecte... ?? I had faith in the system....was pushed out on the limb, the limb broke and it was my head in the noose while the good folks of Tombstone hid in their homes Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Snaggletooth 1,362 #173 Posted October 16, 2012 I had faith in the system....was pushed out on the limb, the limb broke and it was my head in the noose while the good folks of Tombstone hid in their homes Equilles = I fouht the lawe, and the lawe won.... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
btbotfa 4 #174 Posted October 16, 2012 thought i was on the right side of the law snags....don't think anybody won, regardless of where that pickle dish resides. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
House Salad 4 #175 Posted October 16, 2012 I hear excuses like "well, if we change their rating then they won't race" or "participation is so low, we don't want to be too discriminating" or "the owner made a mistake." I thick in generale moste peopel dointe wante be the badde guye. Thicking being nice and lookng the orthere waye wille help. Moiste time juste the oppasite happends, biddere numberes laeving the sporte do to lacke of adherents to the riules. +1 The biggest rule that is violated is the weight limit. The PHRF comm don't give a shit about. They want us being the bad guys. There is a boat in my class at Manhasset that is over the limit and they admit it. But they are all friends and don't care. I personally don't care that they are, but I'm sure other boats do. I dont mind the weight limit so much. Especially being a full figured gal. Not everyone can get regular crew like you. (The same 5 meatballs for 25 years and a kid from college with no friends). Maybe my kid is home from college and wants to sail for a day, whatever. But there is little enforcement of phrf certificates + rules by most clubs. Thats where the problem is. The YRALIS is not an enforcer but when they hear about this stuff they should do something like nasty name calling, or disallow the results for season trophies. You're kidding, right? So the organizing authority is supposed to sit on the signal boat and for every boat that sails by, they are going to guess at the weight of each individual crew member (including the ones that might be in the head) and add that up, then bring up their cert on line and check whether they are in compliance?? Show me where it is the organizing authorities' responsibility to enforce weight limits. If you have a suspicion about someone, then throw up a flag and we'll bring them in and weigh them. Let the Race Committee run the races. You make them into ratings cops and you'll have the shitiest courses you could ever imagine. We have a thousand things going through our minds when we're running races, don't add more to it or you will be sorely dissappointed. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kevlar Edge 14 #176 Posted October 16, 2012 That's ridiculous, we want to encourage participation so they should just drop the weight limits completely. That's what Espo is suggesting and that's the best way to solve the problem. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
btbotfa 4 #177 Posted October 16, 2012 For other than true dialed in, weigh in type one design, I agree Kev Edge Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Snaggletooth 1,362 #178 Posted October 16, 2012 thought i was on the right side of the law snags....don't think anybody won Ageede. Eevry ritten lawe requires ounes who willeng to inforce it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jesposito 56 #179 Posted October 16, 2012 For other than true dialed in, weigh in type one design, I agree Kev Edge A lot of people agree with you, me and KE, but nobody wants to do anything about getting this abolished. Everyone you talk dislikes the weight limit. I really don't care anymore, my results have not changed over the years with or without the weight limit. I now take a weight penalty and sail with 7 instead of 8. I am the ONLY one taking a penalty while others just break the rules. But again it goes back to competitors having integrity or NO integrity. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
moondance44 20 #180 Posted October 16, 2012 I hear excuses like "well, if we change their rating then they won't race" or "participation is so low, we don't want to be too discriminating" or "the owner made a mistake." I thick in generale moste peopel dointe wante be the badde guye. Thicking being nice and lookng the orthere waye wille help. Moiste time juste the oppasite happends, biddere numberes laeving the sporte do to lacke of adherents to the riules. +1 The biggest rule that is violated is the weight limit. The PHRF comm don't give a shit about. They want us being the bad guys. There is a boat in my class at Manhasset that is over the limit and they admit it. But they are all friends and don't care. I personally don't care that they are, but I'm sure other boats do. I dont mind the weight limit so much. Especially being a full figured gal. Not everyone can get regular crew like you. (The same 5 meatballs for 25 years and a kid from college with no friends). Maybe my kid is home from college and wants to sail for a day, whatever. But there is little enforcement of phrf certificates + rules by most clubs. Thats where the problem is. The YRALIS is not an enforcer but when they hear about this stuff they should do something like nasty name calling, or disallow the results for season trophies. You're kidding, right? So the organizing authority is supposed to sit on the signal boat and for every boat that sails by, they are going to guess at the weight of each individual crew member (including the ones that might be in the head) and add that up, then bring up their cert on line and check whether they are in compliance?? Show me where it is the organizing authorities' responsibility to enforce weight limits. If you have a suspicion about someone, then throw up a flag and we'll bring them in and weigh them. Let the Race Committee run the races. You make them into ratings cops and you'll have the shitiest courses you could ever imagine. We have a thousand things going through our minds when we're running races, don't add more to it or you will be sorely dissappointed. easy sport i meant to say I am against the weight rules. Just becuase Espo makes his crew shave their balls (except for LH who dosnt need to) to save weight its not for everyone. Its up to competitors to protest or STFU O.A. and R.C. and YRA should enforce certificate validty, once per season change, etc instead of hiding. Cheaters will dissappear fast Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crashtestdummy 2 #181 Posted October 16, 2012 I hear excuses like "well, if we change their rating then they won't race" or "participation is so low, we don't want to be too discriminating" or "the owner made a mistake." I thick in generale moste peopel dointe wante be the badde guye. Thicking being nice and lookng the orthere waye wille help. Moiste time juste the oppasite happends, biddere numberes laeving the sporte do to lacke of adherents to the riules. +1 The biggest rule that is violated is the weight limit. The PHRF comm don't give a shit about. They want us being the bad guys. There is a boat in my class at Manhasset that is over the limit and they admit it. But they are all friends and don't care. I personally don't care that they are, but I'm sure other boats do. if its you or dreadlocks I care so spill the beans Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jesposito 56 #182 Posted October 16, 2012 I hear excuses like "well, if we change their rating then they won't race" or "participation is so low, we don't want to be too discriminating" or "the owner made a mistake." I thick in generale moste peopel dointe wante be the badde guye. Thicking being nice and lookng the orthere waye wille help. Moiste time juste the oppasite happends, biddere numberes laeving the sporte do to lacke of adherents to the riules. +1 The biggest rule that is violated is the weight limit. The PHRF comm don't give a shit about. They want us being the bad guys. There is a boat in my class at Manhasset that is over the limit and they admit it. But they are all friends and don't care. I personally don't care that they are, but I'm sure other boats do. if its you or dreadlocks I care so spill the beans It's not me I take the weight penalty unlike other J29's, plus I sailed short 1 down on Sunday my heaviest guy and still with a 3 second penalty beat you by 2 minutes in only half the race. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crashtestdummy 2 #183 Posted October 16, 2012 I hear excuses like "well, if we change their rating then they won't race" or "participation is so low, we don't want to be too discriminating" or "the owner made a mistake." I thick in generale moste peopel dointe wante be the badde guye. Thicking being nice and lookng the orthere waye wille help. Moiste time juste the oppasite happends, biddere numberes laeving the sporte do to lacke of adherents to the riules. +1 The biggest rule that is violated is the weight limit. The PHRF comm don't give a shit about. They want us being the bad guys. There is a boat in my class at Manhasset that is over the limit and they admit it. But they are all friends and don't care. I personally don't care that they are, but I'm sure other boats do. if its you or dreadlocks I care so spill the beans It's not me I take the weight penalty unlike other J29's, plus I sailed short 1 down on Sunday my heaviest guy and still with a 3 second penalty beat you by 2 minutes in only half the race. so with your heavy guy back this weekend you will be well over! glad he wasn't or we wouldn't of been able to see you finish. With only one person on a crew over 200 its very easy to sail with 7 under 1260. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Snaggletooth 1,362 #184 Posted October 16, 2012 Just becuase Espo makes his crew shave their balls (except for LH who dosnt need to) to save weight its not for everyone. Thisse isente a criew activitty is itt? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kevlar Edge 14 #185 Posted October 16, 2012 yeah in the showers at mbyc every fall series.....gross question snaggs why do you want to know? and could you even imagine that scene.......yikes Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Snaggletooth 1,362 #186 Posted October 16, 2012 yeah in the showers at mbyc every fall series.....gross question snaggs why do you want to know? and could you even imagine that scene.......yikes soory....yikes is riite!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites