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Manhasset Fall Series

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I believe those pics are NOT from the day in question. That was the second weekend's heavy air day. They are being protested for the first weekend.

Not 100% about that. IIRC Left Hook was trimming main on the second Saturday and that isn't Left Hook.

 

Whole situation just gets sadder with every passing day.

Maybe we should all chip in and buy everyone a pickle dish so they all feel like winners? Change all the trophies MBYC allotted to this division to say "PHRF 4, Participating Entrant" and be done with it all.

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No - I'm fairly sure its still cheating regardless if you get caught.

 

Is it only cheating if you get caught?

 

It seems to me cheating is a deliberate and knowing violation of a rule or rules in order to secure an advantage. It is also possible to violate a rule inadvertently or unknowingly. Given that the weight rule for PHRF and IRC is stupid, it is one to which people routinely don't pay attention. I suspect that it is just not often thought about when crew for a regatta is assembled and the boat leaves the dock. That would mean a violation is less likely to be cheating than it is an inadvertent mistake. That doesn't change a sailor's responsibility when it is brought to his attention but it does suggest that posters ought to be careful before they use words like cheater or grifter suggesting dishonesty.

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I believe those pics are NOT from the day in question. That was the second weekend's heavy air day. They are being protested for the first weekend.

Not 100% about that. IIRC Left Hook was trimming main on the second Saturday and that isn't Left Hook.

 

Whole situation just gets sadder with every passing day.

Maybe we should all chip in and buy everyone a pickle dish so they all feel like winners? Change all the trophies MBYC allotted to this division to say "PHRF 4, Participating Entrant" and be done with it all.

 

The metadata on Shutterfly suggested that those pictures were edited on 10/19/2014, which in turn suggests they were taken on weekend one.

 

BTW, the 400 spectacular pictures on Shutterly are anopther example of the great things that the MBYC volunteers do for the participants. Many thanks House Salad!

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I believe those pics are NOT from the day in question. That was the second weekend's heavy air day. They are being protested for the first weekend.

Not 100% about that. IIRC Left Hook was trimming main on the second Saturday and that isn't Left Hook.

 

Whole situation just gets sadder with every passing day.

Maybe we should all chip in and buy everyone a pickle dish so they all feel like winners? Change all the trophies MBYC allotted to this division to say "PHRF 4, Participating Entrant" and be done with it all.

 

The metadata on Shutterfly suggested that those pictures were edited on 10/19/2014, which in turn suggests they were taken on weekend one.

 

BTW, the 400 spectacular pictures on Shutterly are anopther example of the great things that the MBYC volunteers do for the participants. Many thanks House Salad!

You are most welcome. Those shots were taken on 10/19, yes.

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I believe those pics are NOT from the day in question. That was the second weekend's heavy air day. They are being protested for the first weekend.

Not 100% about that. IIRC Left Hook was trimming main on the second Saturday and that isn't Left Hook.

 

Whole situation just gets sadder with every passing day.

Maybe we should all chip in and buy everyone a pickle dish so they all feel like winners? Change all the trophies MBYC allotted to this division to say "PHRF 4, Participating Entrant" and be done with it all.

 

The metadata on Shutterfly suggested that those pictures were edited on 10/19/2014, which in turn suggests they were taken on weekend one.

 

BTW, the 400 spectacular pictures on Shutterly are anopther example of the great things that the MBYC volunteers do for the participants. Many thanks House Salad!

sanity and civility are NOT allowed in this discussion ;-)

the pics are stunning as always

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It seems to me cheating is a deliberate and knowing violation of a rule or rules in order to secure an advantage. It is also possible to violate a rule inadvertently or unknowingly. Given that the weight rule for PHRF and IRC is stupid, it is one to which people routinely don't pay attention. I suspect that it is just not often thought about when crew for a regatta is assembled and the boat leaves the dock. That would mean a violation is less likely to be cheating than it is an inadvertent mistake. That doesn't change a sailor's responsibility when it is brought to his attention but it does suggest that posters ought to be careful before they use words like cheater or grifter suggesting dishonesty.

"Inadvertant mistake" from a team as seasoned as Hustler ? I'm just not buying it.

 

I agree with your point that it doen't change the sailors responsibility . . . . . . . .

 

But . . . . from what I have seen, this was not "inadvertant".

 

They have known the weight limit which has been in place for years but still choose to sail with 7 guys of which 4 must be at least 220 pounds leaving only 380 to split between three other men at 126 per ? ? ?

 

The math is so far off here its just very hard to accept "inadvertant"

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Hustler took a 3 second penalty for weight for the second weekend. By the looks of it on Yachtscoring they rescored the whole regatta with the 3 second hit. That's why Hustler and Smokin J rate differently. (111 vs 114) That's also why Smokin J protested after the fact for the previous weekend. (6 days late)

 

Results are still the same. (funny how that works out)

 

That would allow Hustler 1440 lbs total crew weight for the second weekend at least.

There's more to this story than what is being reported here.

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Hustler took a 3 second penalty for weight for the second weekend. By the looks of it on Yachtscoring they rescored the whole regatta with the 3 second hit. That's why Hustler and Smokin J rate differently. (111 vs 114) That's also why Smokin J protested after the fact for the previous weekend. (6 days late)

 

Results are still the same. (funny how that works out)

 

That would allow Hustler 1440 lbs total crew weight for the second weekend at least.

There's more to this story than what is being reported here.

I don't think anyone is debating whether or not Hustler is incredibly well sailed, or that results of the regatta would change.

 

To me it seems there a couple of things that happened. 1) Hustler sailed the shit outta their boat as usual and crushed their division. 2) They cheated to achieve this. 3)Hustler's crew talked shit and Smokin' took offense to it. 4) SJ filed a bullshit protest to drag H through the mud. 5) This thread...

 

So it would seem that only one party is really responsible. They straight up cheated. For someone that is so dominant in their class, this shouldn't be necessary. It made a lot of people look bad. SJ, MBYC, the Fall Series, the PC, and most importantly Hustler themselves. Espo has shown many times that simply winning isn't enough anymore. He takes great pleasure in belittling the competition. (Not sailing last races when a regattas locked up and such)

 

Many people can respect your ability on the water, but here on land, fuck dude. I just feel bad for you.

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Hustler took a 3 second penalty for weight for the second weekend. By the looks of it on Yachtscoring they rescored the whole regatta with the 3 second hit. That's why Hustler and Smokin J rate differently. (111 vs 114) That's also why Smokin J protested after the fact for the previous weekend. (6 days late)

 

Results are still the same. (funny how that works out)

 

That would allow Hustler 1440 lbs total crew weight for the second weekend at least.

There's more to this story than what is being reported here.

Wouldn't one usually get the handicap change before they sailed outside the rules? Isn't that a bit like being rated for a jib, and using a 150 genoa and not saying anything about it? Then when someone protests and you've won the race, you say, oh, OK , rate me for the genoa. I don't think it works that way.

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Well, obviously the RC/scorer thought it works that way as they re-scored the entire regatta with the new handicap.

 

Why did they do that?

 

This whole deal reeks of incompetence.

 

The onus is on the protesting boat to prove Hustler was overweight. Because MBYC fucked up with procedure,(and Smokin J filed 6 days late) that can never be proven.

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Hustler took a 3 second penalty for weight for the second weekend. By the looks of it on Yachtscoring they rescored the whole regatta with the 3 second hit. That's why Hustler and Smokin J rate differently. (111 vs 114) That's also why Smokin J protested after the fact for the previous weekend. (6 days late)

 

Results are still the same. (funny how that works out)

 

That would allow Hustler 1440 lbs total crew weight for the second weekend at least.

There's more to this story than what is being reported here.

Right. Because that is Johnnie's story to tell. And even at that they would have been over the limit if the reason he gives for having asked for the change were both accurate and had come to bear.

I feel for Hustler on some level but John knows the rules. He has banged his head up against the weight limits for years. That said he can't really expect others not to raise objections when he crosses the line. Add to that it is not his place to say where that line is.

 

And Squallmax, you don't get a do-over here for starters. Secondly I am a bit surprised that the OA allowed for a rating modification once the event started. That was another mistake made in all of this, true. Our sport is about respect of the rules we all agree to sail under, not sea lawyering.

 

Lastly, I am not sure Yacht Scoring can make the distinction between entering two different ratings on different weekends. So extrapolating that the scoring change retroactive is intentional is probably not accurate.

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OJ never killed Nicole or Ron either.

 

So Espo's defense team will say "If on the scale the PC don't make me sit, then the results must fit"

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Well, obviously the RC/scorer thought it works that way as they re-scored the entire regatta with the new handicap.

 

Why did they do that?

 

This whole deal reeks of incompetence.

 

The onus is on the protesting boat to prove Hustler was overweight. Because MBYC fucked up with procedure,(and Smokin J filed 6 days late) that can never be proven.

That's the way it was done, but that's not the way it IS done. Normally you can't cheat and then have things changed retroactively so you are no longer cheating. Do you really think anyone will respect you when you say the onis is on them to prove we were cheating? Its not that kind of sport. If you were over the weight limit and you know it, you should know what to do, but, sadly, you don't.

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2011_10230003.jpg

 

 

I got no idea how much we weighted in 2011 even with only 7 of 9 we could have been close ?

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Well, obviously the RC/scorer thought it works that way as they re-scored the entire regatta with the new handicap.

 

Why did they do that?

 

This whole deal reeks of incompetence.

 

The onus is on the protesting boat to prove Hustler was overweight. Because MBYC fucked up with procedure,(and Smokin J filed 6 days late) that can never be proven.

That's the way it was done, but that's not the way it IS done. Normally you can't cheat and then have things changed retroactively so you are no longer cheating. Do you really think anyone will respect you when you say the onis is on them to prove we were cheating? Its not that kind of sport. If you were over the weight limit and you know it, you should know what to do, but, sadly, you don't.

You cante proove Expo knose anythig!

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If another boat got a win on a technicality, the Hustler crew would be all over these pages yapping about it, but when they knowingly cheat and get away with it because a protest is filed late, all they can say is "The onus is on the protesting boat to prove Hustler was overweight". There's a real class act. They must be very proud of themselves.

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What did we learn?

Horizontal striped shirts can make you look fat.

 

 

Orange is the new black!!

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Well, obviously the RC/scorer thought it works that way as they re-scored the entire regatta with the new handicap.

 

Why did they do that?

 

This whole deal reeks of incompetence.

 

The onus is on the protesting boat to prove Hustler was overweight. Because MBYC fucked up with procedure,(and Smokin J filed 6 days late) that can never be proven.

That's the way it was done, but that's not the way it IS done. Normally you can't cheat and then have things changed retroactively so you are no longer cheating. Do you really think anyone will respect you when you say the onis is on them to prove we were cheating? Its not that kind of sport. If you were over the weight limit and you know it, you should know what to do, but, sadly, you don't.

 

 

You cante proove Expo knose anythig!

 

 

Found this video of Johnnie at a recent press conference regarding weight limit adherence.

 

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Interested Party,

That statement was made by me, not John or any of his crew. I'm not one of Hustlers normal crew(used loosely), although I have sailed on and against Hustler from time to time. Don't assume anything.

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Well, obviously the RC/scorer thought it works that way as they re-scored the entire regatta with the new handicap.

 

Why did they do that?

 

This whole deal reeks of incompetence.

 

The onus is on the protesting boat to prove Hustler was overweight. Because MBYC fucked up with procedure,(and Smokin J filed 6 days late) that can never be proven.

That's the way it was done, but that's not the way it IS done. Normally you can't cheat and then have things changed retroactively so you are no longer cheating. Do you really think anyone will respect you when you say the onis is on them to prove we were cheating? Its not that kind of sport. If you were over the weight limit and you know it, you should know what to do, but, sadly, you don't.

 

You cante proove Expo knose anythig!

 

Found this video of Johnnie at a recent press conference regarding weight limit adherence.

 

classic!

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Yes well apparently there are a lot of people channeling their inner Sargent Schultz.

Seems to me this is an explosive situation that needs YRA Board attention......

 

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An interesting parallel is that Dirk de Ridder got banned from the sport for 5 years by ISAF, only for being accused of talking about the placement of a couple of pounds of lead in a king post, lead which was never found in the king post of the boat on which he sailed. That all happened a year after an event in which this lead was supposedly put in that king post.

 

A certified ISAF Jury comprised of some of the most experienced people within ISAF had no problem putting the hammer down on Dirk a year later, and did so with no proof. Only one guy making one statement that he THINKS Dirk told someone to put the lead there was good enough to get Dirk flicked for 5 years (at least until the CAS ruling comes out, so this might all change).

 

But the point is there is ample precedent set by ISAF for going after people who abuse calls rules which pertain to weight long after the event is over.

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Yeah there's a parallel!

 

Espo = Dirk DeRidder

 

6 knot shitbox PHRF racing = Americas Cup

 

I'm sure ISAF is assembling a jury right now to ban Espo. LOL.

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Nah, you need PHRF cops. Not the board's job.

The board can move to strike down weight limits. They serve no purpose.

 

187759.jpg

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Yeah there's a parallel!

 

Espo = Dirk DeRidder

 

6 knot shitbox PHRF racing = Americas Cup

 

I'm sure ISAF is assembling a jury right now to ban Espo. LOL.

 

I am aware of a case that the ISAF Disciplinary Commission just heard where the sailor who has been penalized pretty severely was competing in an event that wasn't even close to AC standard, and for something that is totally absurd.

 

But no, ISAF won't be assembling anything to go after Espo, however if someone wants to make a case out of it, it's not all that hard to have this thing blow up into something that would reach the Disciplinary Commission. I am by no means advocating that, just saying that it could.

 

Espo seems to attract the sort of attention where enough people have enough of an ex to grind with him that who knows what could happen.

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have at it no. 6, you can petition phrf committee or whoever you think should do the dirty work. present your case... argue the fine points...go to u.s. sailing....go to isaf....go to the White House....petition the lord with prayer....if you want to become a member of the board, let the nominating committee know you are interested and sign on up. the folks who do all the hard work just to keep the ball rolling will welcome your input. But cleaning up the mess in aisle 3, a mess caused by lots of parties who know better, ignoring rules and procedures, and acting like teenagers on internet forums, is not worth the time or effort to do so if they can't clean it up themselves.

 

I am sure there are plenty of valid reasons weight limits were established. You can go before the PHRF committee and request clarification.

 

Easy to cavalierly dictate what other people should do--if you want to effect change, do the work.

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have at it no. 6, you can petition phrf committee or whoever you think should do the dirty work. present your case... argue the fine points...go to u.s. sailing....go to isaf....go to the White House....petition the lord with prayer....if you want to become a member of the board, let the nominating committee know you are interested and sign on up. the folks who do all the hard work just to keep the ball rolling will welcome your input. But cleaning up the mess in aisle 3, a mess caused by lots of parties who know better, ignoring rules and procedures, and acting like teenagers on internet forums, is not worth the time or effort to do so if they can't clean it up themselves.

 

I am sure there are plenty of valid reasons weight limits were established. You can go before the PHRF committee and request clarification.

 

Easy to cavalierly dictate what other people should do--if you want to effect change, do the work.

Sixey, I go withe you on thisse crussade, I no some them ande mabey abelle help oute.

 

BT, pleasae stop putteng from ruffe, try be possitiffe.

P.S you cannotte petitione lorde with prayiere.

 

:)

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have at it no. 6, you can petition phrf committee or whoever you think should do the dirty work. present your case... argue the fine points...go to u.s. sailing....go to isaf....go to the White House....petition the lord with prayer....if you want to become a member of the board, let the nominating committee know you are interested and sign on up. the folks who do all the hard work just to keep the ball rolling will welcome your input. But cleaning up the mess in aisle 3, a mess caused by lots of parties who know better, ignoring rules and procedures, and acting like teenagers on internet forums, is not worth the time or effort to do so if they can't clean it up themselves.

 

I am sure there are plenty of valid reasons weight limits were established. You can go before the PHRF committee and request clarification.

 

Easy to cavalierly dictate what other people should do--if you want to effect change, do the work.

Sixey, I go withe you on thisse crussade, I no some them ande mabey abelle help oute.

 

BT, pleasae stop putteng from ruffe, try be possitiffe.

P.S you cannotte petitione lorde with prayiere.

 

:)

So THIS is what that new Minions movie is about!

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have at it no. 6, you can petition phrf committee or whoever you think should do the dirty work. present your case... argue the fine points...go to u.s. sailing....go to isaf....go to the White House....petition the lord with prayer....if you want to become a member of the board, let the nominating committee know you are interested and sign on up. the folks who do all the hard work just to keep the ball rolling will welcome your input. But cleaning up the mess in aisle 3, a mess caused by lots of parties who know better, ignoring rules and procedures, and acting like teenagers on internet forums, is not worth the time or effort to do so if they can't clean it up themselves.

 

I am sure there are plenty of valid reasons weight limits were established. You can go before the PHRF committee and request clarification.

 

Easy to cavalierly dictate what other people should do--if you want to effect change, do the work.

Watch it big guy. I have done my trick at the helm for numerous organizations and events. That includes the YRA.

Since you are a big wig who presents himself as man of the little people, I figured it would be right in your wheelhouse, perhaps I had that wrong.

 

If you or anyone (paging Rick R., paging Rick R.) can tell me one good reason why weight limits exist in handicap racing, I am all ears. Anyone who has a clue, has a few miles under their keel, knows what a liability too many crew (or too few crew) can be to the performance of a boat. So the justification for PHRF weight limits, limiting the number of rides for sailors, would be an interesting topic for discussion.

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you need PHRF cops.

Whose doeng the hirering? Bachellores or Assossiates dergree requirde? YRA Acadamey?

just gotta pass first grade...

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have at it no. 6, you can petition phrf committee or whoever you think should do the dirty work. present your case... argue the fine points...go to u.s. sailing....go to isaf....go to the White House....petition the lord with prayer....if you want to become a member of the board, let the nominating committee know you are interested and sign on up. the folks who do all the hard work just to keep the ball rolling will welcome your input. But cleaning up the mess in aisle 3, a mess caused by lots of parties who know better, ignoring rules and procedures, and acting like teenagers on internet forums, is not worth the time or effort to do so if they can't clean it up themselves.

 

I am sure there are plenty of valid reasons weight limits were established. You can go before the PHRF committee and request clarification.

 

Easy to cavalierly dictate what other people should do--if you want to effect change, do the work.

Watch it big guy. I have done my trick at the helm for numerous organizations and events. That includes the YRA.

Since you are a big wig who presents himself as man of the little people, I figured it would be right in your wheelhouse, perhaps I had that wrong.

 

If you or anyone (paging Rick R., paging Rick R.) can tell me one good reason why weight limits exist in handicap racing, I am all ears. Anyone who has a clue, has a few miles under their keel, knows what a liability too many crew (or too few crew) can be to the performance of a boat. So the justification for PHRF weight limits, limiting the number of rides for sailors, would be an interesting topic for discussion.

and he will say...it's for the little people. The disenfranchised. The owner who nobody likes but yet wants to go sail but only has his wife and son to go with him. He can;t possibly beat the boat that is sailing full up, so feeling that he is entitled to fairness wants a handicap credit for not getting a full crew. The then guy who is full up says, if I have 200 more lbs. on the rail with this 20 kt. southerly, I can beat that boat which is 10 ft. longer BUT only has 3 crew on board and is WAYYYY overpowered.

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you cannotte petitione lorde with prayiere

Forget to switch accounts again?

 

 

Why don't you and your buddy check my IP again?

You know who I am

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you cannotte petitione lorde with prayiere

Forget to switch accounts again?
Why don't you and your buddy check my IP again?You know who I am

Relaxe.

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Thissis bcoming perfrecte strome kinda threade. :)

You expect anything less from a thread all about Hustler?

 

 

 

 

you cannotte petitione lorde with prayiere

Forget to switch accounts again?

 

 

Why don't you and your buddy check my IP again?

You know who I am

 

 

And mine, yet again, while you are at it.

Of course "his friend" now denies any of that sort of thing happening and lays it right back on LH being a sociopathic liar.

Hard to decide which is which and who is who.

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have at it no. 6, you can petition phrf committee or whoever you think should do the dirty work. present your case... argue the fine points...go to u.s. sailing....go to isaf....go to the White House....petition the lord with prayer....if you want to become a member of the board, let the nominating committee know you are interested and sign on up. the folks who do all the hard work just to keep the ball rolling will welcome your input. But cleaning up the mess in aisle 3, a mess caused by lots of parties who know better, ignoring rules and procedures, and acting like teenagers on internet forums, is not worth the time or effort to do so if they can't clean it up themselves.

 

I am sure there are plenty of valid reasons weight limits were established. You can go before the PHRF committee and request clarification.

 

Easy to cavalierly dictate what other people should do--if you want to effect change, do the work.

Watch it big guy. I have done my trick at the helm for numerous organizations and events. That includes the YRA.

Since you are a big wig who presents himself as man of the little people, I figured it would be right in your wheelhouse, perhaps I had that wrong.

 

If you or anyone (paging Rick R., paging Rick R.) can tell me one good reason why weight limits exist in handicap racing, I am all ears. Anyone who has a clue, has a few miles under their keel, knows what a liability too many crew (or too few crew) can be to the performance of a boat. So the justification for PHRF weight limits, limiting the number of rides for sailors, would be an interesting topic for discussion.

 

 

and he will say...it's for the little people. The disenfranchised. The owner who nobody likes but yet wants to go sail but only has his wife and son to go with him. He can;t possibly beat the boat that is sailing full up, so feeling that he is entitled to fairness wants a handicap credit for not getting a full crew. The then guy who is full up says, if I have 200 more lbs. on the rail with this 20 kt. southerly, I can beat that boat which is 10 ft. longer BUT only has 3 crew on board and is WAYYYY overpowered.

 

 

I am not sure whether that is inte3llectually honest or not DaCapon. Disenfranchising folks who want to sail so as not to disenfranchise folks who don't really care. Now there is a solid foundation to base crew limits on.

Of course the YRA could always promote setting up events with "Fully Crewed" or "Friends and Family" classes.

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It's settled.

Snaggy is Mark Degelleke

Sorry to out you dude.

You just can't help yourself can you? You already hold the record for being flicked the most number of times from SA, what more do you seek in notoriety?

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have at it no. 6, you can petition phrf committee or whoever you think should do the dirty work. present your case... argue the fine points...go to u.s. sailing....go to isaf....go to the White House....petition the lord with prayer....if you want to become a member of the board, let the nominating committee know you are interested and sign on up. the folks who do all the hard work just to keep the ball rolling will welcome your input. But cleaning up the mess in aisle 3, a mess caused by lots of parties who know better, ignoring rules and procedures, and acting like teenagers on internet forums, is not worth the time or effort to do so if they can't clean it up themselves.

 

I am sure there are plenty of valid reasons weight limits were established. You can go before the PHRF committee and request clarification.

 

Easy to cavalierly dictate what other people should do--if you want to effect change, do the work.

Watch it big guy. I have done my trick at the helm for numerous organizations and events. That includes the YRA.

Since you are a big wig who presents himself as man of the little people, I figured it would be right in your wheelhouse, perhaps I had that wrong.

 

If you or anyone (paging Rick R., paging Rick R.) can tell me one good reason why weight limits exist in handicap racing, I am all ears. Anyone who has a clue, has a few miles under their keel, knows what a liability too many crew (or too few crew) can be to the performance of a boat. So the justification for PHRF weight limits, limiting the number of rides for sailors, would be an interesting topic for discussion.

 

We've digressed. This was aout a boat, its skipper, and its crew, knowingly breaking a rule and when it was pointed out to them, instead of withdrawing and doing the right thing, they ignored the truth of the situation and got away with cheating on a technicality. It doesn't matter whether weight limits are a good idea. Currently, they are in place. If you think there shouldn't be a red light on a particular corner, you can't just drive through it because you don't like it. This is a self policing sport, if your conscience doesn't prevent you from cheating on weight, maybe the same attitude makes you feel you can put your engine in gear in a light air night race. As long as nobody catches you, you're fine.

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IP, you are right, thread all over map. The rules are in place-Hustler ignored them, obviously, as plenty of folks do, (the point of Hustler's protest the second weekend) and then the whole thing devolved as MBFS and protest committee fumbled the football. Quick and definitive decisions at that point would have helped but that didn't happen. Bit of a mess but the hard work the organizers and players behind the scenes of the event should not be belittled by the mismanagement of a situation that no one at that level really wants to deal with...The damn event is supposed to be fun, you know--its Long Island Sound sailing, a bunch of yahoos banging around on the weekend with their friends, getting wet, breaking stuff, drinking beer and telling stories. Who wants to deal with this bullshit.

 

 

Whether weight limits are a valid part of the sport is a worthy discussion, but the law is in place, now, and if all parties in a race have the unspoken agreement that, come one come all, good for the sport, then so be it for ignoring the rules. When the racing becomes a little more heated and crosses the line between good-natured Corinthian sport and a fight on the playground, the rules are another weapon to be used to gain advantage. If that guy you can't stand is cheating, call him out. But if you are going to go down that road, better have all your i's dotted and t's crossed and know that a trip to the room is 50/50 at best.

 

And Sixie, a little time on watch doesn't mean the trip is over-calling Rick R to respond here in this cesspool is absurd at best and you know it. I am not kidding-you think this is a worthy cause to fight, and I don't disagree, figure out a way to have the argument and discussion at a level where change can actually happen. If you want me to help that process along, let's chat. Man of the little people? That's pretty funny....Regardless, talking about the invalid nature of weight credits does not take away from the fact that Hustler got away with one here and we all know it.

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Oh no IP, you are correct. But I think a discussion regarding weight limits is a natural progression of this debacle.

 

Is this final now? Has it been settled that Hustler will not be DSQ'd or RAF?

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And Sixie, a little time on watch doesn't mean the trip is over-calling Rick R to respond here in this cesspool is absurd at best and you know it. I am not kidding-you think this is a worthy cause to fight, and I don't disagree, figure out a way to have the argument and discussion at a level where change can actually happen. If you want me to help that process along, let's chat. Man of the little people? That's pretty funny....Regardless, talking about the invalid nature of weight credits does not take away from the fact that Hustler got away with one here and we all know it.

No, poking fun at an old friend and shipmate is just about shits and giggles. No need to belittle one of the back benchers Mr. VP. It is the back benchers place to cry out for justice and equality when we see wrongs that need to be righted. There are those that fully ascribe to the notion that all worthy causes start at the bottom and filter their way to the top. To discourage that in an way just separates us peasants from the ruling class.... put us in our place.

 

It's gonna be a long freakin Winter! LLO :)

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you got that right! Longggg winter--negative 3 one morning in Aspen this week. No belittling intended here, I need little people like you, the shy and humble Quaker, to keep me focused. The YRA of LIS is in pretty decent shape, through the hard work of lots of people, in particular Bernie Armstrong and Charlie Powers who have righted the ship and modernized the way things get done. The big charge as we move forward is, nothing small here, figure out a way to keep our sport alive. Part of that is found in a healthy discussion about weight limits--figuring out ways to increase participation, not penalize folks who are fortunate to have lots of sailing friends, and maintain a level of fairness for Dacapo's poor souls who can't muster up a crew cause they have halitosis.

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you got that right! Longggg winter--negative 3 one morning in Aspen this week. No belittling intended here, I need little people like you, the shy and humble Quaker, to keep me focused. The YRA of LIS is in pretty decent shape, through the hard work of lots of people, in particular Bernie Armstrong and Charlie Powers who have righted the ship and modernized the way things get done. The big charge as we move forward is, nothing small here, figure out a way to keep our sport alive. Part of that is found in a healthy discussion about weight limits--figuring out ways to increase participation, not penalize folks who are fortunate to have lots of sailing friends, and maintain a level of fairness for Dacapo's poor souls who can't muster up a crew cause they have halitosis. Curmudgeonitis.

fixed

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I don't think Dacapon was talking about Dacapon. Besides I offered up my best thought about that a few posts back. Once our pal A.L. started that Expressly thing, which by all accounts is a somewhere between stunning success and continuing healthy event, it is as if not one dang club or the YRA took any notice. Family and Friends. That is the ticket. Whether that is government marks or sailed in combination with WL and scored separately is TBD but to promote that sort of atmosphere for those who have grown weary of the full crewed WL grind is the way forward. That said, you can do a host of things and if a subset of sailors that used to race just don't care for it, well ain't nothin' you can say, nothin' you can do.

 

Back to Dacapon's dilemma. A WLIS crewboard that is promoted as part of every YRA e-mail would go a long way. Just something that says, "6 boats looking for crew, 9 crew looking for boats" and linkie for each. Build it, promote it, nurture it and push the crap out of it. Proven to work. Feel free to ask me about when I served as The Corinthians crewing committee chair. I'll fill in the blanks.

 

BTW, I did the Larchmont YC Race Week Survey this morning. Not a bad concept to get the pulse of us little people. We all can't always serve, but many will tell you exactly what is on their mind if only they felt someone was listening.

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.... The rules are in place-Hustler ignored them, obviously, as plenty of folks do, (the point of Hustler's protest the second weekend) and then the whole thing devolved as MBFS and protest committee fumbled the football. Quick and definitive decisions at that point would have helped but that didn't happen. Bit of a mess but the hard work the organizers and players behind the scenes of the event should not be belittled by the mismanagement of a situation that no one at that level really wants to deal with...The damn event is supposed to be fun, you know--its Long Island Sound sailing, a bunch of yahoos banging around on the weekend with their friends, getting wet, breaking stuff, drinking beer and telling stories. Who wants to deal with this bullshit.

 

 

Whether weight limits are a valid part of the sport is a worthy discussion, but the law is in place, now, and if all parties in a race have the unspoken agreement that, come one come all, good for the sport, then so be it for ignoring the rules. When the racing becomes a little more heated and crosses the line between good-natured Corinthian sport and a fight on the playground, the rules are another weapon to be used to gain advantage. If that guy you can't stand is cheating, call him out. But if you are going to go down that road, better have all your i's dotted and t's crossed and know that a trip to the room is 50/50 at best.....

Another Hustler MBYC Fall regatta pic, this from 2013: http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/uploads//monthly_04_2014/post-33230-0-69189300-1396537752_thumb.jpg, found in post 1579 in the Espo is a Dick thread: http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=23343&page=1.

 

Largely the same crew, even down to the foulies, and they got the same result.

 

I don't know if they deliberately cheated then or in 2014, or even thought about the weight limits on the certificate (although that thread also contains a discussion of one-design weight limits at KWRW in 2005 that would suggest this has been an issue that has gotten Espo's attention in the past).

 

Whether you think there was an unspoken agreement to ignore weight limits that was broken by the protestor or an unspoken limit on boorish, dickish behavior that Espo crossed just one too many times for people to endure, now that this oversized genie has left the bottle, it will take a long time to squeeze her back in.

 

It is hard enough to get people in boats on the line at these local regattas without worrying who is going to show up with a scale and when.

 

PHRF and IRC should be a Jenny-Craig, Weight-Watchers Free Zone. We need to keep sailing safe for fat guys! Free **********! Go No. 6 and BTBOTFA!

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Thissis bcoming perfrecte strome kinda threade. :)

You expect anything less from a thread all about Hustler?

>

 

you cannotte petitione lorde with prayiere

Forget to switch accounts again?

 

Why don't you and your buddy check my IP again?

You know who I am

And mine, yet again, while you are at it.

Of course "his friend" now denies any of that sort of thing happening and lays it right back on LH being a sociopathic liar.

Hard to decide which is which and who is who.

 

Talke abote iccheng to gette flicte! :)

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Moi???

 

Oh wait, did you say Icing ette flicte?

So I figured, what the hell, lets see what that translates to, google, hit enter and it returns this!

Weasel Dick

 

A guy you have a low opinion of and don't want near you. A general pain in the ass and there is no other word to discribe him.

How did it know??

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And now let's get back on track.

Did anyone involved in this nasty scene step up and do the right thing yet? Anyone?

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And now let's get back on track.

Did anyone involved in this nasty scene step up and do the right thing yet? Anyone?

LOL!

 

All bark, zero bite from all parties.

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And now let's get back on track.

Did anyone involved in this nasty scene step up and do the right thing yet? Anyone?

LOL!

 

All bark, zero bite from all parties.

 

Might as well be facebook bickering between spouses, et al... LOL!!

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Yawn

Yawn because this ignoring weight limits has been going on for years with this particular boat?

OR

Yawn because the rules don't really matter and are meant to be pushed beyond their limits?

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I thick mabey assumptiones our being assumped to be facutual. Expo sayes notte overt weight they notte overt weight, anny orthere factes to be reivewed?

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So what is the conclusion here? It is clear Hustler was overweight and cheated !! Are they getting off on a technicality? Is the protest invlaid? Rules are rules and winning knowing you broke the rules cannot feel good. Huster seems to bring so much controversy in every regatta they enter. Not good !! :angry:

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I find it a little telling that on both weekends, knowing that a protest was a possibility, the crew of hustler showed up to be weighed. Why were they not weighed then and be done with it?????? Oh that's right there was no protest lodged on the first weekend. Not sure why there are so many that insist that Hustler broke a rule and cheated and should RET, but the protesting boat, who by the way broke rules in the filing of the protest is the innocent victim in this story. I call bullshit on this one. It sure sounds like poor sportsmanship on the protestor to me. I guess if you can't win on the water try and win in the room.

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I find it a little telling that on both weekends, knowing that a protest was a possibility, the crew of hustler showed up to be weighed. Why were they not weighed then and be done with it?????? Oh that's right there was no protest lodged on the first weekend. Not sure why there are so many that insist that Hustler broke a rule and cheated and should RET, but the protesting boat, who by the way broke rules in the filing of the protest is the innocent victim in this story. I call bullshit on this one. It sure sounds like poor sportsmanship on the protestor to me. I guess if you can't win on the water try and win in the room.

I think what's actually being said is that Hustler is wrong for cheating AND Smokin J is wrong for taking their sweet time with the trophy.

Remember, as a self policing sport, the onus is on each of us to know if we broke a rule and correct ourselves -- not wait for someone to protest us (then do nothing).

 

I don't think there's any question Hustler would've won by a mile whether they sailed overweight or not. What none of us understand is why they didn't just say "yeah OK fine we will RET and here's the pickle dish back"...especially given that they've won so many it doesn't really make sense that they're clinging so hard to this particular one. This boat, by its own claims, skips regattas now to "give someone else a chance to win" -- so given their large collection of legitimately won silver, what makes this the hill worth [their reputation] dying on?

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I find it a little telling that on both weekends, knowing that a protest was a possibility, the crew of hustler showed up to be weighed. Why were they not weighed then and be done with it?????? Oh that's right there was no protest lodged on the first weekend. Not sure why there are so many that insist that Hustler broke a rule and cheated and should RET, but the protesting boat, who by the way broke rules in the filing of the protest is the innocent victim in this story. I call bullshit on this one. It sure sounds like poor sportsmanship on the protestor to me. I guess if you can't win on the water try and win in the room.

 

Look at the pictures and tell me how that adds up to sub ~1300 pounds. Or are you one of the guys that hasn't weighed himself in a decade and still believes he's a trim 185?

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This really has been an entertaining thread if you start @ the beginning in 2012!

 

If you go way back to the beginning of this post John actually says that he is one of the few boats sailing with integrity in regards to weight limits at that time. he stated the boat, in the past, sailed with 8, but it seems at some point (maybe in 2012), they decided to be more sportsmanlike and follow the phrf weight restrictions on their certificate and sail with 7 and take a 3 second hit for still being overweight with 7 crew, to race at 111. Imagine how many pounds over they were when they sailed with 8 crew and didn't take a penalty and what the rating could/should have been - that 20-30 seconds advantage on a race before they decided to "sail with integrity", if what John says in his earlier post is true. 20-30 second advantage in races where the boat many time was scratch boat, getting ahead and then covering and dictating the fleet behind.

 

No denying these guys a f'ing good and would win no matter the weight on the boat 99% of the time. Just seems like there is always some controversy around them. Seems they thrive in it. To each their own.

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Johnnie is between a rock and a hard place. If he stands his ground, based on the photos he looks like a cheat who refused to come clean and do the right thing. If he RAF's then he is admitting that he is a cheat. So it would seem he is going to stand his ground and say prove it or shut up. Of course the problem with that is this, there is a high degree of likelihood that this will 1.) not go away any time soon and 2.) Hustler will likely be protested at the hint of any further infraction.

Me? If I were him I would have RAF'd, played on the sympathy and circulated a petition to end weigh limits.

However that is a bit easier to say when it isn't you being called a cheat.

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I find it a little telling that on both weekends, knowing that a protest was a possibility, the crew of hustler showed up to be weighed. Why were they not weighed then and be done with it?????? Oh that's right there was no protest lodged on the first weekend. Not sure why there are so many that insist that Hustler broke a rule and cheated and should RET, but the protesting boat, who by the way broke rules in the filing of the protest is the innocent victim in this story. I call bullshit on this one. It sure sounds like poor sportsmanship on the protestor to me. I guess if you can't win on the water try and win in the room.

I think what's actually being said is that Hustler is wrong for cheating AND Smokin J is wrong for taking their sweet time with the trophy.

Remember, as a self policing sport, the onus is on each of us to know if we broke a rule and correct ourselves -- not wait for someone to protest us (then do nothing).

 

I don't think there's any question Hustler would've won by a mile whether they sailed overweight or not. What none of us understand is why they didn't just say "yeah OK fine we will RET and here's the pickle dish back"...especially given that they've won so many it doesn't really make sense that they're clinging so hard to this particular one. This boat, by its own claims, skips regattas now to "give someone else a chance to win" -- so given their large collection of legitimately won silver, what makes this the hill worth [their reputation] dying on?

 

Perhaps they recognize that they have been sailing overweight for years, have not been straightforward about it (some facts suggest disingenuous), and risk having all their wins for years stripped and/or seeing a rule 69 proceeding. Given that potential outcome, a combination of bluster/silence may seem like the best strategy but No. 6 is probably right -- this issue is not going to go away by itself.

 

As far as "on both weekends, knowing that a protest was a possibility, the crew of hustler showed up to be weighed," that's really peculiar revisionist history.

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What's the big deal with weight limits in PHRF and IRC?

 

One-designs have had them for years, they are not declining in participation because of them.

 

Weight limits are 'class rules' and need to be followed just like any other 'rules'

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What's the big deal with weight limits in PHRF and IRC?

 

One-designs have had them for years, they are not declining in participation because of them.

 

Weight limits are 'class rules' and need to be followed just like any other 'rules'

Because PHRF (and IRC) isn't One Design. You are racing boats that are by definition dis-similar. That is why there should not be weight limits. By installing weight limits, based on size or rating you are in effect imposing a penalty on one type of boat and then offering credits to others, all of the same size or in the same rating band.

Say you have two 35 footers. One is an IMS type warhorse, the other a more modern sprit boat. Both the IMS monster and sprit boat are limited to say 1500 lbs (just round numbers here Bill) But the IMS boat requires 9 people to sail her, keep her flat, gybe masthead symmetrical kites on a pole, grind in 153% genoas etc, etc. The sprit boat has assyms, 100% 15/16ths jibs and a bulb keel, wide beam aft. Requires only 5 to keep her flat, gybe the assym, jib is in with three turns of the winch. However the IMS boat now has to have an average crew weight of 166 lbs. The sprit boat, which can be sailed by 5 190 lbs crew, then seeks a credit of 3 seconds. Not because she is limited in her ability by sailing with less crew, but because she can easily be sailed with less crew. That inherently is not fair and from a rules application perspective why weight limits should not apply.

 

BTW, I agree that the current weight limits should be adhered to. They are regularly broken on less formal races and being clearly being ignored at a higher level. They need to end this off season.

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We can argue back and forth about weight limits all day. Right now they are a rule in YRALIS. It is clear Hustler has broken the weight limit rule not just in this regatta but many others as well. Rules need to be followed especially in sailing. You can't decide on your own that a rule is not needed in your opinion and ignore it. Thats wrong !! When you break a rule you need to do the right thing. I agree with past posters that this is a realy bad situation for Hustler and could become a very big problem for them. I spent some time reading the owners past post and I can see why he does not have alot of allies outside his circle. I guess what comes around goes around. Very interested to see how this ends. No matter what happens Husters repuation will never be the same.

 

 

 

I find it a little telling that on both weekends, knowing that a protest was a possibility, the crew of hustler showed up to be weighed. Why were they not weighed then and be done with it?????? Oh that's right there was no protest lodged on the first weekend. Not sure why there are so many that insist that Hustler broke a rule and cheated and should RET, but the protesting boat, who by the way broke rules in the filing of the protest is the innocent victim in this story. I call bullshit on this one. It sure sounds like poor sportsmanship on the protestor to me. I guess if you can't win on the water try and win in the room.

I think what's actually being said is that Hustler is wrong for cheating AND Smokin J is wrong for taking their sweet time with the trophy.
Remember, as a self policing sport, the onus is on each of us to know if we broke a rule and correct ourselves -- not wait for someone to protest us (then do nothing).

I don't think there's any question Hustler would've won by a mile whether they sailed overweight or not. What none of us understand is why they didn't just say "yeah OK fine we will RET and here's the pickle dish back"...especially given that they've won so many it doesn't really make sense that they're clinging so hard to this particular one. This boat, by its own claims, skips regattas now to "give someone else a chance to win" -- so given their large collection of legitimately won silver, what makes this the hill worth [their reputation] dying on?

 

Perhaps they recognize that they have been sailing overweight for years, have not been straightforward about it (some facts suggest disingenuous), and risk having all their wins for years stripped and/or seeing a rule 69 proceeding. Given that potential outcome, a combination of bluster/silence may seem like the best strategy but No. 6 is probably right -- this issue is not going to go away by itself.

 

As far as "on both weekends, knowing that a protest was a possibility, the crew of hustler showed up to be weighed," that's really peculiar revisionist history.

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We can argue back and forth about weight limits all day. Right now they are a rule in YRALIS. It is clear Hustler has broken the weight limit rule not just in this regatta but many others as well. Rules need to be followed especially in sailing. You can't decide on your own that a rule is not needed in your opinion and ignore it. Thats wrong !! When you break a rule you need to do the right thing. I agree with past posters that this is a realy bad situation for Hustler and could become a very big problem for them. I spent some time reading the owners past post and I can see why he does not have alot of allies outside his circle. I guess what comes around goes around. Very interested to see how this ends. No matter what happens Husters repuation will never be the same.

You seeme alle doome a unmittigatted failiure fre the mitey H. Chinnup! Thelle be juste fine. :)

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Who has photos back 5/1015 years? I would be interested to see how long they have been cheating? They only do 3-5 events a year so if someone here has the time we could determine if they have even won an event legally since weight limits went into affect

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Who has photos back 5/1015 years? I would be interested to see how long they have been cheating? They only do 3-5 events a year so if someone here has the time we could determine if they have even won an event legally since weight limits went into affect

Nothing prooved, evrything assumde. FRee the Expo!!!!

 

Happey Thurkey Day! :)

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