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      A Few Simple Rules   05/22/2017

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deluxe68

Bendytoy 461

41 posts in this topic

Anyone sail one of these offshore? We are looking for a cruising boat capable of going offshore. I spotted a 1998 Beneteau 461 and was bored so I looked into it. The boat is designed by Farr, B/D of 35%, and has a keel stepped mast, the hull is identical to the first 45F5 from what I can tell. Is the boat more suitable than the typical Oceans-R-us deck stepped, 29% B/D offering?

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Are you thinking of moving to a larger boat than your 36.7?

Or maybe starting a Beneteau fleet like jackdaw?

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Are you thinking of moving to a larger boat than your 36.7?

Or maybe starting a Beneteau fleet like jackdaw?

 

To pull that off you have to have a perfect partner in crime. Happily I do.

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I think he might. If he does he will have you beat in "overall length", tonnage and number of BBQs (I think).

 

Of course this competition has to be "Brand Specific" as may folks like kimbottles have the lead in number of vessels and several other categories.....

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Are you thinking of moving to a larger boat than your 36.7?

Or maybe starting a Beneteau fleet like jackdaw?

 

We will be moving up to our "retirement" boat to live-aboard. Hard enough keeping up with one boat much less two. The 36.7 will probably go bye-bye early next year and we will get the dock-o-minium later in the year.

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Sorry to hear about you selling the 36.7. Are you going to stay in the area?

 

Depends upon the economy but we will probably base the boat in the same area. We might even keep the 36.7 for a few more years, just trying to plan things out.

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Anyone sail one of these offshore? We are looking for a cruising boat capable of going offshore. I spotted a 1998 Beneteau 461 and was bored so I looked into it. The boat is designed by Farr, B/D of 35%, and has a keel stepped mast, the hull is identical to the first 45F5 from what I can tell. Is the boat more suitable than the typical Oceans-R-us deck stepped, 29% B/D offering?

If it is the same hull as the 45F5 then I wouldn't recommend it for offshore "long distance" work- I delivered a couple of 45F5,s from France to Marigot Bay (Moorings) back in 1990/1991 and my only memories of those trips can be likened to crossing the Atlantic in a cocktail shaker. Fast, yes. Comfortable, in a marina yes. At sea in any kind of a chop, bloody awful and slam like hell. Trade wind sailing, white knuckles and forget the autopilot, (The recommended unit for the boat in those days was the Autohelm 6000 with the captive drum and we blew ours (gears stripped) on both trips after about 2 days in the trades. I'd say for a very comfy coastal/medium distance cruiser it's a great boat but for anything more than a couple of days offshore I'd look for something more seakindly. You have to remember that most of those Benny/Janny/Feeling boats of that era were adaptions of IOR race hulls (Interior volume for the charter market) and were designed to have about a ton of gorrilla meat sitting on the rail to keep them flat.

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I too once delivered a 45f5 from Hawaii to Seattle. The first couple days we were hard on the wind, trying to make as much northing as possible. The boat slammed once in a while but I got to the point where I could tell it was going to happen as we were going up the wave. When I felt that coming I'd just fall off ever so slightly for a gentle landing. The person I shared watch with couldn't feel that, and the solution was for her to drive off just a little more than I did. Under autopilot you'd want to crack off just about 3-5 degrees off max point.

 

 

Going downwind in bigger swells (8 -12 feet) the back end of the boat took a little more work to keep her tracking straight. It wasn't helped by a headsail built for another boat, so that only the top half or the bottom half of the sail was trimmed correctly. That meant we were driving off the main more than the headsail, so she corkscrewed around more than necessary. We had a bit of a gale towards the end of the trip and my watchmate was afraid to steer. I was pretty beat after four hours of hand steering (but we were fast). It would be hard on an autopilot in those conditions.

 

 

A couple things to note: The rudder bearings needed to be replaced once we got back (actually they should have been replaced before we left), so just a warning that they are not really fit for offshore use. Second, the boat is wide open down below and there are not enough good handholds for when the boat is rocking and rolling. You'll need to invest in those if you don't want people sliding and falling during heavy weather.

 

 

I came away from that trip thinking the boat isn't what I'd choose if a lot of passagemaking was on the agenda, but if you were to stay closer to shore then it would probably be just fine. I wasn't totally impressed with the build quality, although to be fair the boat has done 4 or five Hawaii race/returns and is still floating, so maybe I'm being overly critical. That boat also hit bottom pretty hard once (about 8 knots if the rumors are true) and she required a keel frame rebuild. That’s something else to consider too if you plan to go to out of the way places.

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I took a Bennie 45f5 from the Galapagos to the Marquesas Islands in 2004. Autopilot melted down about 7 days into it and we hand steered 2 hours on and 2 hours off for 8 days. The third crewmember couldn't drive worth a shit downwind so it was up to us. No upwind work so I can't speak about the slamming when coming off waves but she was a hand full downwind in 25 kinds apparent. Fast though. Comfortable enough. The port side turning block had recently started to pull out of the deck and was fixed just prior to me getting onboard. Not sure if that is a common thing. Boat was raced in England prior to doing the ARC and then the Blue Water Rally. I liked the boat. Small fuel tank. We had jerry jugs in the aft lazerettes. Not a big fan of all the opening windows along the cabin top.

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Just made an offer on a 461. Never in a million years did I ever think I would be buying a Beneslow, but the wife really likes it and it fits our future cruising needs.

 

So, anything on this specific model from the experts that I should be looking for when we do the survey?

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Just made an offer on a 461. Never in a million years did I ever think I would be buying a Beneslow, but the wife really likes it and it fits our future cruising needs.

 

So, anything on this specific model from the experts that I should be looking for when we do the survey?

Check the forward windows if they are plastic. They go a bit grey and speckled. The later models have x-glass imstead of perspex, Look for water ingress aroung the chainplate/bulkheads- There is a lot of strain on that big rig and it moves a little.. Most important. Check the rudder bearings for any movement at all and change them if there is the slightest sign of wobble. This was a common fault with the 45F5. Keel bolts should be fine as they were over spec. rig as well,,, but,, if it is a roller furl main, check the sail. the furling unit will be plastimo which is good but the mainsail maybe totally knackered due to being rolled away for years (open it up fully to check the hidden bits).. Hull should be fine. Deck. likewise but check around the stanchions and hull to deck join although they are generally very good quality joins and well above spec. Don't trust the electrics,,, check them out thoroughly. The originals were shit and if you are buying a second hand boat,,, they will be shittier. good luck. It's a good boat all round. Just make sure it's in condition before you head off into the blue yonder and be prepared to do some rap/square dancing when you go below to prepare the sardines on toast. They do bounce around in any kind of seaway.

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Just made an offer on a 461. Never in a million years did I ever think I would be buying a Beneslow, but the wife really likes it and it fits our future cruising needs.

 

So, anything on this specific model from the experts that I should be looking for when we do the survey?

Check the forward windows if they are plastic. They go a bit grey and speckled. The later models have x-glass imstead of perspex, Look for water ingress aroung the chainplate/bulkheads- There is a lot of strain on that big rig and it moves a little.. Most important. Check the rudder bearings for any movement at all and change them if there is the slightest sign of wobble. This was a common fault with the 45F5. Keel bolts should be fine as they were over spec. rig as well,,, but,, if it is a roller furl main, check the sail. the furling unit will be plastimo which is good but the mainsail maybe totally knackered due to being rolled away for years (open it up fully to check the hidden bits).. Hull should be fine. Deck. likewise but check around the stanchions and hull to deck join although they are generally very good quality joins and well above spec. Don't trust the electrics,,, check them out thoroughly. The originals were shit and if you are buying a second hand boat,,, they will be shittier. good luck. It's a good boat all round. Just make sure it's in condition before you head off into the blue yonder and be prepared to do some rap/square dancing when you go below to prepare the sardines on toast. They do bounce around in any kind of seaway.

Thanks much!

Fortunately this is a 2-cabin boat, so it has a normal galley and not that stupid thing on the port side of the salon; should make galley duty a little less painful while underway.

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As it is the two cabin layout I would presume that it's not an ex charter boat and so as long as the last owners did their mantainance you should have no problems. Ex "Unskippered" Charter boats have a working life of about 4/5 years and then upkeep starts to overtake earnings. I helped a friend who bought a Jeanneau 40 footer from a Greek charter company a few years back. In all honesty, the guy in charge of the sale did mention that the boat had hit the ground and that the keel had been rebedded. What he didn't mention was that it had been rebedded using standard home depot bathroom tile sealant which sometimes reacts to salt water. When we were prepping the hull for bottom painting we noticed a kind of dead animal smell and couldn't figure out what it was until we scraped the paint from around the keel joint. I have to admit though, it worked, because the bilges were as dry as could be and was obviously a general use item for that charter company as we found half a dozen tubes of the gunk in the chart table. It did leave us with the interesting puzzle of trying to find what else had been "repaired" with the offending muck.

By the way, when I mentioned the front windows I meant the two openings in the head and the one opposite. For some reason they crazed while the others didn't.

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Just made an offer on a 461. Never in a million years did I ever think I would be buying a Beneslow, but the wife really likes it and it fits our future cruising needs.

 

So, anything on this specific model from the experts that I should be looking for when we do the survey?

Check the forward windows if they are plastic. They go a bit grey and speckled. The later models have x-glass imstead of perspex, Look for water ingress aroung the chainplate/bulkheads- There is a lot of strain on that big rig and it moves a little.. Most important. Check the rudder bearings for any movement at all and change them if there is the slightest sign of wobble. This was a common fault with the 45F5. Keel bolts should be fine as they were over spec. rig as well,,, but,, if it is a roller furl main, check the sail. the furling unit will be plastimo which is good but the mainsail maybe totally knackered due to being rolled away for years (open it up fully to check the hidden bits).. Hull should be fine. Deck. likewise but check around the stanchions and hull to deck join although they are generally very good quality joins and well above spec. Don't trust the electrics,,, check them out thoroughly. The originals were shit and if you are buying a second hand boat,,, they will be shittier. good luck. It's a good boat all round. Just make sure it's in condition before you head off into the blue yonder and be prepared to do some rap/square dancing when you go below to prepare the sardines on toast. They do bounce around in any kind of seaway.

Thanks much!

Fortunately this is a 2-cabin boat, so it has a normal galley and not that stupid thing on the port side of the salon; should make galley duty a little less painful while underway.

 

Is that boat in Southern CA?

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Is that boat in Southern CA?

Not SoCal, why?

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Got to say... I always said "I'll never buy a BeneSlow", but my opinion has changed.

 

Pretty damn nice boat. Definitely a few things that need to be changed and the shape of the cruising sails make me want to grab the eye bleach, but we had a great sail today and the wife (not your typical oblivious sailing wife) loves the boat. Makes the purchase pretty easy.

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The Farr Benes of the late 80s early/mid 90s were always a bit stiffer than the Briande/Berret designs. They still weren't that stiff but they were the better models IMO. I liked the 461.

 

Before any major passages I'd drop the rudder out and check the stock for cracking. They're a glass rudder stock and whilst they generally seem to hold up there were some that failed. The 45f5s that were raced hard often had their stocks wrapped in carbon or a new one made if the stock cracked.

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Well survey found a few issues.

 

Rudder post is stainless and bearings are tight, and boat is solid, but...

 

Screw is oversized and engine won't reach top RPM range.

 

Electrical is not done right; add on batteries and no isolation.

 

Several ball valves are toast.

 

Keel has that lovely iron blush and welt look.

 

Then there are the "deferred maintenance" issues...

 

We'll see where we go from here.

 

 

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I can certainly see why she finds it attractive.

 

3992733_-1_20120611155453_21_0.jpg&w=600&h=450&t=1339459054000

 

She likes to shower? Nudge nudge wink wink.

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I saw that boat.

One we are looking at it is in Emeryville. Also a 2-cabin. Same year. Look for water damage and clogged drainage at the base of the mast.

Why anyone would buy a 3-cabin blows my mind with that retarded galley.

Really like the swapped out port settee for the cabinet structure in the San Pedro boat.

There is a load of sweat equity that is going to have to go into the Emeryville boat. There is a LOT of deferred maintenance that needs to be addressed.

How does your boat stack up?

That watermarker in the seating looks like a Moorings boat. Was the boat an old charter?

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I saw that boat.

One we are looking at it is in Emeryville. Also a 2-cabin. Same year. Look for water damage and clogged drainage at the base of the mast.

Why anyone would buy a 3-cabin blows my mind with that retarded galley.

Really like the swapped out port settee for the cabinet structure in the San Pedro boat.

There is a load of sweat equity that is going to have to go into the Emeryville boat. There is a LOT of deferred maintenance that needs to be addressed.

How does your boat stack up?

That watermarker in the seating looks like a Moorings boat. Was the boat an old charter?

 

I did not think they usually had 2-cabin boats that big in the charter portfolios. I looked up the water-maker, cannot remember the name, and found quite a bit of negative review about pump failures. The search continues.......

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I saw that boat.

One we are looking at it is in Emeryville. Also a 2-cabin. Same year. Look for water damage and clogged drainage at the base of the mast.

Why anyone would buy a 3-cabin blows my mind with that retarded galley.

Really like the swapped out port settee for the cabinet structure in the San Pedro boat.

There is a load of sweat equity that is going to have to go into the Emeryville boat. There is a LOT of deferred maintenance that needs to be addressed.

How does your boat stack up?

That watermarker in the seating looks like a Moorings boat. Was the boat an old charter?

 

I did not think they usually had 2-cabin boats that big in the charter portfolios. I looked up the water-maker, cannot remember the name, and found quite a bit of negative review about pump failures. The search continues.......

Have to say I really like the cabinet swap for the port settee on Liberty.

 

Not sure that it was a charter, but that is where some charters had the watermarker. Funny spot for it when you can stick it out of the way and use that space.

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1998 Beneteau 461

 

Just as a note . . . you should be aware that Beneteau build to CE and NOT ABYC (even in their US factory). This means they use BRASS thruhulls, non-matching threads between the thruhulls and valves, and non-tinned wire and several other cost saving measures.The ABYC compliant US manufacturers have been very poor at point out this fundamental difference in quality between their build and Beneteau.

 

It does not necessarily make Beneteau a 'bad' boat, but it does mean that you should, for instance, do a more careful annual (and pre-purchase) inspection of thru hulls and valves, than you would need to do on an ABYC boat.

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1998 Beneteau 461

 

Just as a note . . . you should be aware that Beneteau build to CE and NOT ABYC (even in their US factory). This means they use BRASS thruhulls, non-matching threads between the thruhulls and valves, and non-tinned wire and several other cost saving measures.The ABYC compliant US manufacturers have been very poor at point out this fundamental difference in quality between their build and Beneteau.

 

It does not necessarily make Beneteau a 'bad' boat, but it does mean that you should, for instance, do a more careful annual (and pre-purchase) inspection of thru hulls and valves, than you would need to do on an ABYC boat.

Not sure that this is 100% correct.

 

The boat we just surveyed had all BRONZE thru-hulls. May have been replaced, but I seriously doubt it based upon the boat's maintenance history. Also all of the wire runs are tinned wire; again, may not be original, but based upon how the battery banks were added on and a mix of 6v & 12v batteries all linked together, it is pretty obvious what was the original wiring and what was a DIY abomination.

 

The ball valves however are shit. Massive corrosion on most all of them and in need of replacement ASAP. There appears to be a mix of valves. Yellow handles are fine all the rest are toast.

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Its a fact that Beneteau does not build to ABYC and is not NMMA certified.

 

Its also a fact that they have been using brass thru hulls for years (As by the way are many other European brands). Beneteau has reluctantly but publicly acknowledged this, while saying that it meets CE approval (which it does).

 

it's certainly possible that they had an individual owner pay extra to have bronze thru hulls installed on a specific build, or that it was done later (as the brass ones have about a 5 year life - according to CE/ISO). But I am curious . . .how do you know for sure they were bronze? The NMMA inspector at the Beneteau US factory did not realize or catch that they were using brass until a third party told him.

 

Also out of curiosity .. . . Were the valves corroded on the outside or inside? Outside is usually caused by the mismatched threads. Inside is usually caused by brass bodies and mixed metals. The 'Yellow handles" may well be US aftermarket - standard for US Apollo cast bronze with a stainless steel handle and stem nut.

 

Not sure that this is 100% correct.

 

The boat we just surveyed had all BRONZE thru-hulls. May have been replaced, but I seriously doubt it based upon the boat's maintenance history. Also all of the wire runs are tinned wire; again, may not be original, but based upon how the battery banks were added on and a mix of 6v & 12v batteries all linked together, it is pretty obvious what was the original wiring and what was a DIY abomination.

 

The ball valves however are shit. Massive corrosion on most all of them and in need of replacement ASAP. There appears to be a mix of valves. Yellow handles are fine all the rest are toast.

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. . .how do you know for sure they were bronze?

 

Also out of curiosity .. . . Were the valves corroded on the outside or inside? Outside is usually caused by the mismatched threads. Inside is usually caused by brass bodies and mixed metals. The 'Yellow handles" may well be US aftermarket - standard for US Apollo cast bronze with a stainless steel handle and stem nut.

Scrape & test is how you can tell the difference between brass and bronze. All of the thru-hulls are in really good shape, which was a HUGE surprise. Maybe they were replaced, but I am skeptical.

The corrosion was on the outside of the valved; blue handle and red handle valves. It does not look like thread leak-through or bleeding, but it could be. Either way they are going to have to come out. The yellow handles may well be Apollo; they do appear to be a cast bronze valves and are in good shape.

 

Seems like a boat owned by the typical Bene/Hunter/Catalina owner; first boat and first indoctrination into boat ownership with little to no attention paid to the guts of the boat or the annual maintenance needed to keep a boat fresh. That said, the boat is solid with no structural issues; just needs a pile of cash and a lot of sweat poured into it to get it back to like new condition.

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. . .how do you know for sure they were bronze?

 

Scrape & test is how you can tell the difference between brass and bronze.

 

I was curious if they had any manufacturer markings on them that indicated bronze?

 

Or did you just go by color?

 

It can be difficult to tell bronze by just looking. A well known survey report on the subject says in its summary "Be aware that you have no ready means to determine the quality of a thru-hull fitting after it is installed. " The Metal reference website shows some examples of the range of colors that both brass and bronze can have.

 

But if they were not pink, there is probably not dezincification, and you are probably ok in any case

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red brass will look much bronze. a niton unit can identify brass from bronze but at @ $30k a pop not many surveyors will carry one. easy enough to just change them out.

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red brass will look much bronze. a niton unit can identify brass from bronze but at @ $30k a pop not many surveyors will carry one. easy enough to just change them out.

 

Yes. You can also take a shaving from the end of the tail pipe and get a chemical analysis of that.

 

I was really surprised about all this when I first discovered it several years ago. I was flabbergasted and could not believe major boat builders were really using brass thru hulls. And I thought it would be easy to tell if they were. But after some research I discovered I was wrong on both - some builders are in fact using brass and it can be hard to tell by inspection.

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No one looks under the floor boards. Skin fittings with spun on ball valves is the norm for many builders.

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Well we bought it... No "contract" on Rebecca or some crap like that... We bought the boat. First night aboard tonight, then dive into the port seals and systems in the morning. We'll see how I feel about the boat once I pour some money into making it right... Or at least making it the way I want it!

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Congrats also........well done.....Hope you enjoy your new Bene as much as we do ours.......

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Well we bought it... No "contract" on Rebecca or some crap like that... We bought the boat. First night aboard tonight, then dive into the port seals and systems in the morning. We'll see how I feel about the boat once I pour some money into making it right... Or at least making it the way I want it!

 

Congrats. Definitely let us know how you like the boat.

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So far it's been a good hotel. Wife is happy. Still knocking down survey issues.

 

Cut out the leaking Stbd deck scupper today, cleaned, dried, and re bedded a new one. Will re connect the works in the morning. The through deck bushing was wet and wicking water under the bushing which was running down the outside of the drain hose. No silicon, no 4000, nothing under the fitting. Fortunately the deck is still dry. How I have no idea.

Replaced the 4 worst leaking ports. Anybody got any tricks to get the silicon OUT of the track in the frame on the Lewmar ports easily? What a pain in the ass that was.

Cleaned the bilges (just dust and dry gunk) and started to sort the stuff in the forward cabin and clean.

Attacking more seals tomorrow (don't tell PETA!!) and will try to get more cleaning and organizing done before flying back to Portland.

 

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1998 Beneteau 461

 

Just as a note . . . you should be aware that Beneteau build to CE and NOT ABYC (even in their US factory). This means they use BRASS thruhulls, non-matching threads between the thruhulls and valves, and non-tinned wire and several other cost saving measures.The ABYC compliant US manufacturers have been very poor at point out this fundamental difference in quality between their build and Beneteau.

 

It does not necessarily make Beneteau a 'bad' boat, but it does mean that you should, for instance, do a more careful annual (and pre-purchase) inspection of thru hulls and valves, than you would need to do on an ABYC boat.

 

http://www.artshot.net/timebomb

 

From a Beneteau 321 I used to have - went below one day to do a check, grabbed a hose to give it a pull and POP off it went - major ass pucker. So yes, to the above

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We've decided to remove and replace the suspect thru-hulls and valves instead of just replacing the valves.

 

A few more dollars on materials, but less time disassembling and cleaning and more piece of mind that all is good.

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