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    • UnderDawg

      A Few Simple Rules   05/22/2017

      Sailing Anarchy is a very lightly moderated site. This is by design, to afford a more free atmosphere for discussion. There are plenty of sailing forums you can go to where swearing isn't allowed, confrontation is squelched and, and you can have a moderator finger-wag at you for your attitude. SA tries to avoid that and allow for more adult behavior without moderators editing your posts and whacking knuckles with rulers. We don't have a long list of published "thou shalt nots" either, and this is by design. Too many absolute rules paints us into too many corners. So check the Terms of Service - there IS language there about certain types of behavior that is not permitted. We interpret that lightly and permit a lot of latitude, but we DO reserve the right to take action when something is too extreme to tolerate (too racist, graphic, violent, misogynistic, etc.). Yes, that is subjective, but it allows us discretion. Avoiding a laundry list of rules allows for freedom; don't abuse it. However there ARE a few basic rules that will earn you a suspension, and apparently a brief refresher is in order. 1) Allegations of pedophilia - there is no tolerance for this. So if you make allegations, jokes, innuendo or suggestions about child molestation, child pornography, abuse or inappropriate behavior with minors etc. about someone on this board you will get a time out. This is pretty much automatic; this behavior can have real world effect and is not acceptable. Obviously the subject is not banned when discussion of it is apropos, e.g. talking about an item in the news for instance. But allegations or references directed at or about another poster is verboten. 2) Outing people - providing real world identifiable information about users on the forums who prefer to remain anonymous. Yes, some of us post with our real names - not a problem to use them. However many do NOT, and if you find out someone's name keep it to yourself, first or last. This also goes for other identifying information too - employer information etc. You don't need too many pieces of data to figure out who someone really is these days. Depending on severity you might get anything from a scolding to a suspension - so don't do it. I know it can be confusing sometimes for newcomers, as SA has been around almost twenty years and there are some people that throw their real names around and their current Display Name may not match the name they have out in the public. But if in doubt, you don't want to accidentally out some one so use caution, even if it's a personal friend of yours in real life. 3) Posting While Suspended - If you've earned a timeout (these are fairly rare and hard to get), please observe the suspension. If you create a new account (a "Sock Puppet") and return to the forums to post with it before your suspension is up you WILL get more time added to your original suspension and lose your Socks. This behavior may result a permanent ban, since it shows you have zero respect for the few rules we have and the moderating team that is tasked with supporting them. Check the Terms of Service you agreed to; they apply to the individual agreeing, not the account you created, so don't try to Sea Lawyer us if you get caught. Just don't do it. Those are the three that will almost certainly get you into some trouble. IF YOU SEE SOMEONE DO ONE OF THESE THINGS, please do the following: Refrain from quoting the offending text, it makes the thread cleanup a pain in the rear Press the Report button; it is by far the best way to notify Admins as we will get e-mails. Calling out for Admins in the middle of threads, sending us PM's, etc. - there is no guarantee we will get those in a timely fashion. There are multiple Moderators in multiple time zones around the world, and anyone one of us can handle the Report and all of us will be notified about it. But if you PM one Mod directly and he's off line, the problem will get dealt with much more slowly. Other behaviors that you might want to think twice before doing include: Intentionally disrupting threads and discussions repeatedly. Off topic/content free trolling in threads to disrupt dialog Stalking users around the forums with the intent to disrupt content and discussion Repeated posting of overly graphic or scatological porn content. There are plenty web sites for you to get your freak on, don't do it here. And a brief note to Newbies... No, we will not ban people or censor them for dropping F-bombs on you, using foul language, etc. so please don't report it when one of our members gives you a greeting you may find shocking. We do our best not to censor content here and playing swearword police is not in our job descriptions. Sailing Anarchy is more like a bar than a classroom, so handle it like you would meeting someone a little coarse - don't look for the teacher. Thanks.

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michael-compwest

...Aussie Skiffs are back!!.....

765 posts in this topic

...just as winter creeps into place,,,and there's rain every day in the 14 day forecast,,,,,,

got a reminder from 18footerTV with their recap...dug up the full coverage--always fun!

...lovely coverage ,crusty commentary ....wonder how the skiffchicks did? :rolleyes:

 

3 minute recap....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8n3jxvT-CY&feature=em-uploademail-new

 

full coverage..... http://www.18footerstv.com/index.php

 

 

..while digging for 18footerTV,,,I googled 'skiffTV',,,brought me to Julian and Co's EPIC promo for the now-defunct 49er grand prix circuit,,,,mesaw a bit of the attempt in penghu,Taiwan,,,most I remember is how -tiny- the women were!

...too bad that didn't come together,,,great clip though!

...would love to see regular coverage of 100 49ers bashing it...bet the bookies would too!!

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...it seems the skiffchicks are pretty start-up,,,,sailing with reduced rig,looking a bit sketchy........

....surely there's enough support for women's sailing in oz that these gals could be payrolled a fulltime training program!

 

 

 

...feminist bankers?...oh I guess that's an oxymoron :mellow:

,,,maybe that perfume company that sponsored whats-her-name.

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.

they have a coach and training program, one with real skiff background

you could say he also manages the team, and probably owns* a good deal of it

 

*using the term loosely

 

...how much are they on the water?...it'd be great to see them make a go :rolleyes:

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A bunch of Queenslanders drove down to Sydney this weekend to see how they were going pace wise,,

They did the 3 bouy race,,and ended up taking the line,,,

Did very well considering old boat and rig,,, :)

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they went fantastic, it was a great 'raid'

bearing in mind off the limit hcp didn't have to see the 2nd or 3rd buoy

 

they won't see that Hcp again though, their next hcp ( said 'we'll take it') will see quite a few boats on a shorter course than them

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A bunch of Queenslanders drove down to Sydney this weekend to see how they were going pace wise,,

They did the 3 bouy race,,and ended up taking the line,,,

Did very well considering old boat and rig,,, :)

they went fantastic, it was a great 'raid'

bearing in mind off the limit hcp didn't have to see the 2nd or 3rd buoy

 

they won't see that Hcp again though, their next hcp ( said 'we'll take it') will see quite a few boats on a shorter course than them

 

...sounds like good times,,looking forward to the vid,,as always,,usually 'boat-porn' of the week for me .

 

.......that 3 buoys format-it's amazing the effort it takes to get some boats in front of '7' :mellow:

 

 

.........how's the gal-boat doing?..........not much mention in the coverage

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.

they have a coach and training program, one with real skiff background and background coaching previous 18 teams

you could say he also manages the team, and probably owns* a good part of it

 

*using the term loosely

 

the coach is skippers dad!!!!!!

 

link to latest skiff vids...with a few highlites of the QLD skiff taking handicap honours...well done guys great sailing

http://blip.tv/racecam

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no video 'fix' for you today couch surfer

 

41 knot peak gust on 'the arena' with 30 regular, spindrift

 

whether we'll see Jonos overrotating wing mast race before xmas is anyones guess

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whether we'll see Jonos overrotating wing mast race before xmas is anyones guess

I haven't been donw to the boat park for a long time but I hope we do see this. The idea has been around for so long. Trevor Barnabus was the first to mention the idea to me about 3 years ago, and soon after Brett Van Munster actually got a mould and made a section to do this, but never used it. It would be great to see somebody see whether it really does work.

 

The only real issue I see is that I would have thought you would need sails specifically cut to use with such a mast, and that without those, we won't know if it is really working.

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whether we'll see Jonos overrotating wing mast race before xmas is anyones guess

I haven't been donw to the boat park for a long time but I hope we do see this. The idea has been around for so long. Trevor Barnabus was the first to mention the idea to me about 3 years ago, and soon after Brett Van Munster actually got a mould and made a section to do this, but never used it. It would be great to see somebody see whether it really does work.

 

The only real issue I see is that I would have thought you would need sails specifically cut to use with such a mast, and that without those, we won't know if it is really working.

 

And even then, the first generation of sails probably won't be optimal. How many iterations do you think it will take to get to full performance potential?

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no video 'fix' for you today couch surfer

 

41 knot peak gust on 'the arena' with 30 regular, spindrift

 

whether we'll see Jonos overrotating wing mast race before xmas is anyones guess

 

 

post-3217-0-59016300-1355105353_thumb.jpgpost-3217-0-59016300-1355105353_thumb.jpgpost-3217-0-59016300-1355105353_thumb.jpg

 

 

.......WAAAAAAAA,,,,nasty Gybeset took mah skiff-fix :angry::( :( ;)

 

 

 

.................................................not even any hero-sailors??

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,,,maybe that perfume company that sponsored whats-her-name.

 

Launching her I14 program this weekend at BRYC. Tab on the bar and all I hear.

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,,,maybe that perfume company that sponsored whats-her-name.

 

Launching her I14 program this weekend at BRYC. Tab on the bar and all I hear.

 

 

...er,,come again,,,,little miss 'round the world ' is getting into 14's???????

 

 

.......and what's the latest on them skiffchicks?? :wub:

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whether we'll see Jonos overrotating wing mast race before xmas is anyones guess

I haven't been donw to the boat park for a long time but I hope we do see this. The idea has been around for so long. Trevor Barnabus was the first to mention the idea to me about 3 years ago, and soon after Brett Van Munster actually got a mould and made a section to do this, but never used it. It would be great to see somebody see whether it really does work.

 

The only real issue I see is that I would have thought you would need sails specifically cut to use with such a mast, and that without those, we won't know if it is really working.

 

And even then, the first generation of sails probably won't be optimal. How many iterations do you think it will take to get to full performance potential?

By coincidence, I bumped into Cocko and Micah Lane today, having not seen them for ages. It seems that Jono has gone the whole hog and the whole rig is custom made for the wing mast, including the sails. He measured the sails in on SRD (sail registration day) so he now has to use those sails for the rest of the season. Because of delays in getting everything sorted, he has had to use his No2 rig all season but he has now sailed with the wing mast at Pitwater last week.

 

You have to hand it to Jono. He has always liked to try new and different things and this certainly is an interesting development. Shame the long term forecast for Sunday suggests 2nd rig. We might not see the rig until next year.

 

While it may be hard to optimise from the start, one would hope the first set of sails will tell us eeenough to know if it has real potential. I would imagine that the real issue will be learning the best way to use the rig and getting the balance right in powering up/depowering between rotation, vang and cunno. That will probably provide the key to future sail development. i envy Jono, because i think it is a really interesting challenge and project.

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dumb yank question: how hard is it to swap between rigs? i mean, generally, i view rigging/derigging as that once a regatta chore. having to decide on the day of racing just seems like an inordinate amount of work...

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It may not only be 'One decision per day' issue, and not if you want to win.

Also you may wait out your main opposition until he commits, so you get fast at it

If its a chore your'e better off in a Nthn Hemis. design or a class with sail nos.

 

Even you would be very keen to change rigs once you'd been caught out on the wrong one, bear in mind

the 1 rigs sail area has been growing & growing.

You could say it's maxxed out now on the #1 mast which from memory is 33'

 

also it's not comparable to shit & giggles racing unless a sponsor or someone is sliding a 50-100k machine under your arse,

then you'd be obliged to set your boat up as many times as gives you the best chance of finishing, and getting a result

 

you plug one rig in and if the weather ( or your 'best guess' ) changes, you go again

 

bear in mind there used to be up to 4 rigs, 12 footers have more than two now as the only real UNrestricted skiff

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The systems for rigging an 18 are really well sorted. The quickest i have managed to get from starting rigging to ready for the water is 15 minutes, including changing. If you haven't rigged any sails, getting one mast out takes less than 5 minutes. The biggest pain is rushing to get the other mast and sails from where the trailers are parked to the boat. It's always fun on marginal days as everybody sits around waiting to see what each other does and at the last minute, there is a mad scamble. There are some things I don't miss about 18 sailing, and that's one of them!

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back in the days of even more rigs, brinksmanship and real 'last minute' decisions the rigs are laid out & not in the trailer, and you'd have a shore crew to deal with it, he wouldn't be doing it for the joy of hanging around the boat park

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Apparently at a worlds in Brisbane in the 80's, Murry and co in Color 7 went from having everything laid out on the lawn, but not in the boat, to in the water in 6 minutes. About 10 people involved apparently

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Apparently at a worlds in Brisbane in the 80's, Murry and co in Color 7 went from having everything laid out on the lawn, but not in the boat, to in the water in 6 minutes. About 10 people involved apparently

That's unbelievable. I've sailed in places where it takes longer to get to the water than that. 6 minutes from mast on the ground to sailing, I guess with 10 people you can multi-task a lot of it...

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,,,maybe that perfume company that sponsored whats-her-name.

 

Launching her I14 program this weekend at BRYC. Tab on the bar and all I hear.

 

 

...er,,come again,,,,little miss 'round the world ' is getting into 14's???????

 

 

.......and what's the latest on them skiffchicks?? :wub:

 

Jessica has teamed up with Cam Dale of Herbie the twin outboard I14 fame and has been sailing on a B5 since winter. By all reports she's coping with the front end well. BTW she's a great role model for young girls getting stuck in and having a go at whatever they want to pursue.

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whether we'll see Jonos overrotating wing mast race before xmas is anyones guess

I haven't been donw to the boat park for a long time but I hope we do see this. The idea has been around for so long. Trevor Barnabus was the first to mention the idea to me about 3 years ago, and soon after Brett Van Munster actually got a mould and made a section to do this, but never used it. It would be great to see somebody see whether it really does work.

 

The only real issue I see is that I would have thought you would need sails specifically cut to use with such a mast, and that without those, we won't know if it is really working.

 

And even then, the first generation of sails probably won't be optimal. How many iterations do you think it will take to get to full performance potential?

By coincidence, I bumped into Cocko and Micah Lane today, having not seen them for ages. It seems that Jono has gone the whole hog and the whole rig is custom made for the wing mast, including the sails. He measured the sails in on SRD (sail registration day) so he now has to use those sails for the rest of the season. Because of delays in getting everything sorted, he has had to use his No2 rig all season but he has now sailed with the wing mast at Pitwater last week.

 

You have to hand it to Jono. He has always liked to try new and different things and this certainly is an interesting development. Shame the long term forecast for Sunday suggests 2nd rig. We might not see the rig until next year.

 

While it may be hard to optimise from the start, one would hope the first set of sails will tell us eeenough to know if it has real potential. I would imagine that the real issue will be learning the best way to use the rig and getting the balance right in powering up/depowering between rotation, vang and cunno. That will probably provide the key to future sail development. i envy Jono, because i think it is a really interesting challenge and project.

 

Hi Simon,how you going mate?? maybe you can help me out with this question. thought there once was a rule "no wing masts"

...ye i agree with you, great to see new developments in the 18s, but wasnt it only a few years ago Howie and Woody etc etc saying how good the 18 class was cause they are all basicaly "one design' now??

 

my question is along the lines of---what if Jonos new wing mast is 5mins quicker around the race track...does the whole world of 18s then need to catch up and do the same--arms race???etc etc.

would be a great idea in the "perfect" skiff world of pro skiff teams, big TV and paid sailors etc etc like the old Grand Prix days, but these days i dont see many teams with the $$ to continually upgrade rigs. isnt that why the League own all the skiffs in the Sydney fleet, so all teams, and sponsors, have a fair chance of winning races with equal equipment

 

interesting stuff, cheers mate

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Lumix' experiments are endorsed by the league, even the existing ... say 'topmasts' are above the reg mastheight

but no more than the oppositions top batten so no drama

 

$$$ ? ? ? , theres a chance this wing, with arguably less complicated rigging may not necessarily be more expensive if in 'production', as a development no doubt

 

I doubt the current sticks are cheap

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Jessica has teamed up with Cam Dale of Herbie the twin outboard I14 fame and has been sailing on a B5 since winter. By all reports she's coping with the front end well. BTW she's a great role model for young girls getting stuck in and having a go at whatever they want to pursue.

My 6 & 8yo niece & nephew listened to her speak when you lot came down to Metung a few weeks back. Apparently they loved it, gave them the kick they needed to sign on to the oppie course and now they're hooked.

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When I was sailing a few years ago, a No1 mast from Southern cost about $6000. I think the C-Tech masts are cheaper, but it's still a lot of money. I wouldn't be surprised if, by using standard cat masts, the cost couldn't be brought down.

 

........but wasnt it only a few years ago Howie and Woody etc etc saying how good the 18 class was cause they are all basicaly "one design' now??

I always saw that to mean that the hull, wings and foils were a strict one design but the rigs were open within a set of rules, which is how a fair number of top international classes like the 505 and 470 operate. When i joined the class there were at least 3 sailmakers, but almost everybody used teh CST masts. However, there was and still is nothing in the rules that regulates who makes the mast and other than height and a very broad materials rules, it can be whatever you want. I honestly don't think that is any different from what it has been for years.

 

my question is along the lines of---what if Jonos new wing mast is 5mins quicker around the race track...does the whole world of 18s then need to catch up and do the same--arms race???etc etc.

I tgink we are already past that point, in that the rigs developed by 7 moved the whole game on and forced others to follow. it was not so obvious, but CST had to respond with smaller section, hi mod carbon masts. From what I have seen, mast developemnt has actually been going on steadily for years. The Sydney fleet had to respond to the rig developed by Rob Greenhagh and no sooner did the whole fleet have those rigs, but the next development happened.

 

I think this is a very hard balancing act. On one hand, you don't want to make the class too expensive, on the other, if you have just one mast and one sail supplier, you are held to ransom. With the hulls it is different, because the club own the moulds and if one builder gets too expensive, or the quality drops, they can and have changed builder. I also think one sail maker and one mast maker would be hard for the non Aussies.

 

So, all that said, i think the rig development is a very hard thing to regulate against. The reason why Jono's stands out is because not only might it perform better, but it looks different, while the masts that 7 have developed don't look that different.

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no names

 

its from the australian source, maybe 150mm chord, guesstimate

 

seen the vids too but theyre not public, its sailing through the week and no reason it won't race next time the weather says 1 rig

-------------------------------------------

 

other than that can't see any reason for more expense, arguably much 'simpler' engineering than any super customised 'works team' specials, and maybe a tad less rigging

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18ft-Skiffs-appsonline-fq.jpg18ft_skiff_asko.jpggiltinan3350_620.jpgyandy47986.jpg

 

............ahhh,,skiffporn,,,,,,,,,mmmmmmmmm :wub:

 

 

[

Jessica has teamed up with Cam Dale of Herbie the twin outboard I14 fame and has been sailing on a B5 since winter. By all reports she's coping with the front end well. BTW she's a great role model for young girls getting stuck in and having a go at whatever they want to pursue.

 

...that's cool!

.....and whut about the skiffchicks??

.....................the silence is deafening :unsure:

 

 

.

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rgg.png?n=1355572815000

 

weekly 'buster not in till midnight so we might get to see the Wingmast in action ?

 

last race this year sportsfans so get your fairy tickets by 2pm

 

It's NSW championship race 2 so scratch racing, don't wind in handicaps

in your Pick the Podium

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no names

 

its from the australian source, maybe 150mm chord, guesstimate

 

seen the vids too but theyre not public, its sailing through the week and no reason it won't race next time the weather says 1 rig

-------------------------------------------

 

other than that can't see any reason for more expense, arguably much 'simpler' engineering than any super customised 'works team' specials, and maybe a tad less rigging

 

yes could be less expensive for new skiffs, but if the whole fleet has to upgrade to similar, then it becomes expensive

 

heard a rumour it wasnt fast today...early days i guess, will be interesting to see how they go

 

looks interesting

post-36688-0-61967200-1355644317_thumb.jpg

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WTF

 

Maybe the chicks are realising that being a good laser sailor doesn't translate to skiffs. The most successful female team came from skiffs and was smart enough to realise you need strength to get around the course

post-720-0-00667500-1355646053_thumb.jpg

post-720-0-71767000-1355646062_thumb.jpg

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heard a rumour it wasnt fast today...early days i guess, will be interesting to see how it goes

Did you hear the rumour where he placed?

lol

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I thought the new rig did pretty well. Obviously they came away with a win, but when most tof the fleet re-start's at shark island the last time there is an element of luck involved. they should be happy that they were close enough to take the chance. For a new rig concept they did well, obviously they didn't blow the fleet away but they are going to make some gains as they get it dialed in.

 

7 was the hard luck story, had a pretty good lead and just got swallowed up

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yandy86856.jpg

to sum up

 

The overrrotating wingmast debuted today, it won,

mitigating circumstances yeah

 

hows the size of those #1 rigs huh

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yandy86856.jpg

to sum up

 

The overrrotating wingmast debuted today, it won,

mitigating circumstances yeah

 

hows the size of those #1 rigs huh

 

 

...holy junk-rig,,can definitely see the asian influence in aussie sailing :rolleyes:

 

.........whynot add a verticle 'batten' just behind the mast--fill-out the area a tad???

 

 

 

.

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heard a rumour it wasnt fast today...early days i guess, will be interesting to see how it goes

Did you hear the rumour where he placed?

lol

 

from the pics it sure looks "less complicated" and it comes complete with built in "luck"...everyone will want one now, i can hear the fones at CST ringing

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Not sure how all that gear at the head of the jib is less complicated? I don't think the guys will get too carried away with that result as while the wind was steady they were a long way off the leaders.

 

It seems to be fashionable for nobody to look upwards at the mainsail after a gybe anymore....

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mast area unrated?

Mast length is limited. Sails are registered/restricted in number but not measured for area. So area of mast is irrelevant.

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agree,

other than 'adding to' what might be the biggest mainsail out there !

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It's a real shame Jonno has done the jib and main/rotating mast at the same time. It would have been interesting to be able to evaluate the 2 seperately to understand what is working or not, as the case may be. But all cudos to him for another off the wall idea!

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It's a real shame Jonno has done the jib and main/rotating mast at the same time. It would have been interesting to be able to evaluate the 2 seperately to understand what is working or not, as the case may be. But all cudos to him for another off the wall idea!

 

+1 - It would have been nice to seperate out the 2 parts here definitaly. Obviously the rationale behind the mast is well proven but I don't think I fully understand/am convinced by the jib with endplate concept. I thought the trend in most other high performance developments was for high aspect jibs?

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yandy86856.jpg

to sum up

 

The overrrotating wingmast debuted today, it won,

mitigating circumstances yeah

 

hows the size of those #1 rigs huh

i'm not sure yet how cool i want this to be

i'd love to see a front view

so it's basically a small chord wingmast with one set of diamonds, and this "V" thing, apart from the end plate function, is also acting like spreaders for the top mast sidestays ?

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I am not sure why it is thought that the extra area of a rotating wing spar does not add liftable area, I thought that was one of its main purposes. Have wondered formyears why skiff rigs and small cat rigs are so different, rightng monent in an 18 probably approaches or exceeds some small cats.

 

Endplate is interesting, wonder how much the extra drag penalty is if it eliminates spreaders? Pretty close to the diamond spreaders. I understand that there are some interesting 2nd order effects associated with fathead jibs, in addition to the ACCs I have heard of a Star with one. It looks like there is a twist control up there also (was called a vang on gaffers I believe) and that allows one to use lighter battens for the shape, as well as increase twist symetricality. By maintaining the slot up high and matching the twist full height I could see some pretty major gains, so, yes, be interesting to see this inisolation.

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Also don't you need to do something up there if you are going to have a rotating mast to keep the forestay from moving around and also inhibiting/fighting the rotation?

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Main benefit of the rotating mast is to reduce windage and drag. The other benefit is that it is stiffer and when rotated tends to bend to leeward and forward below the hounds, and to windward and aft above the hounds, and this bend helps hold up the upper leach area of the mainsail. So less twist when needed. In this case it can hold up an even bigger mainsail head.

The downside with spinnacker boats is that the spin haliard load tends to reverse the mast bend, pulling the head forward and to leeward. If this is allowed to happen suddenlt under load the mast can fail, many MG14 masts have done this. Adding extra topstays seems to upset the ability of the mast to rotate.

The F18s and Tornados seem to have solved the problem. Maybe their hounds and haliard are not greatly separated?

CST have gone a different way by raising the hounds almost to the top of the mast. There is only one set of shrouds, plus a set of raked diamonds. The high hounds need spreaders to maintain staying angle. To allow the diamonds to rotate the spreaders need to be well forward of the line from mast to stay. The spreaders also need to be kept aligned and this is done with moth type Y spreaders which also attach to the foresaty. Because the spreaders need to be roughly half way up to the hounds, this limits the height of the jib to the same height. To get reasonable area in the half height jib they have gone for the huge head. The triangular end plate is useful for such a wide head and is a simple add on to the Y spreaders.

All very cleaver, and very brave when they can not switch back till next season.

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Apparently at a worlds in Brisbane in the 80's, Murry and co in Color 7 went from having everything laid out on the lawn, but not in the boat, to in the water in 6 minutes. About 10 people involved apparently

In the late ninties, I bought a dilapidated 'Color 7' that had been lying in a farmers paddock near Tailem Bend, S Australia for years.. It had 5 rigs, and all the sails were stored rolled around booms, each in individual tubes on the trailer. No expense spared.. The farmer (who apparently partnered with IMurray for one season) unfortunately had scavenged one of the aluminium racks to make a boom spray for his tractor but other than that the complete boat was still there. Ply deck was stuffed but FG hull was still fine as were most of the sails still.

I remember at the time how bizarre it was to see a 'Ferrari' like this sitting on a landlocked farm with grass growing higher than the boat on the trailer; and it felt almost 'sacrilegious' to see it so neglected. Reality is that it was probably obsolete within a season or two anyway. Seems to be so much waste at the cutting edge of most sports, yacht racing especially.

$100 and it was mine, I was a bright eyed, bushy tailed and recently qualified cabinetmaker back then, so I enthusiastically replaced the ply deck and had hopes of getting it sailing again, just for fun. Time, reality and discovering the Whitsundays as a playground/workplace on boats ended the project. My mother eventually sold it to someone from Kangaroo Island for me to reclaim her backyard.

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Interesting adventure. The hang-glider angle would be pretty critical if its going to do more than add drag.

Looks like they have it canted around 5 degrees upwards, which lines up with generally agreed wind onto water angles.

I wonder what happens as mast rake changes?

Or the boat heels.

I can see it steadying the boat while airborne. Not sure if that's within the designed wind range?

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yeah its at 90^ to the mast rake i reckon

 

it must drag & it certainly does not make the boat go forwards

 

so the 'end plate' & headsail efficiency will need to overcome that

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I'd like to thank most of the skiffies that sailed last weekend. Sail Sydney was running on the same piece of water and the skiffs were very understanding.

However, the one skiff who was reaching downwind on port, yelling at multiple 29ers to gybe needs to pull his head in, look a little further ahead and plan a little better if he has such little control of his boat.

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I know you probably don't want to get into a public slanging match, but I think now that you have put the accusation out there you really need to name the boat in question. By not naming the boat you cast suspicion over the entire fleet, which I think is pretty unfair.

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he won the final leg to the finish

 

thats the one i'd take !!

 

the leg you're referring to was the rigs first ever 'racing leg'

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he won the final leg to the finish

 

thats the one i'd take !!

 

the leg you're referring to was the rigs first ever 'racing leg'

 

your joking..rite

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Can anyone shed some light on the rational of the overly large mainsail area?

For a light-ish weight crew they were a mile off the leaders lap one in dream conditions for that setup. First time racing aside.......

Second lap as the wind freshened a little they made no gains.

Third lap coming from 7-8th-ish as the whole group of leaders sat in a hole they snuck through. Well done.

 

What is the range the rig is set for as with that much size and a light crew they will never get around the course up range. Is there a plan somewhere or just guessing and hoping for a narrow wind band?

So far with a heavier crew 7 doesn't look to have the same down range advantage as previous years with its new rig while others such a Appliances have made speed gains. Hopefully Cocko just saving himself.....

A few will be working hard over xmas

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add to that the headsail is pretty grunty

Some aerodynamicist types (note: I tend to agree w you) would argue that the wingmast rig isn't directly comparable to a regular rig

Further overotating when overpowered the middle bends to leeward in the middle and the top flicks to windward, the theory in multis & ns14s any, maybe less so in this case as hounds are near the top

 

Maybe the rationale is that the sail is stamped in, can't be replaced but can be re-profiled very easily, whereas adding area always looks like a balls up and generally is.

 

the other consideration is that the fleets (new oct 2012) mains are going 'big' .

The new 'local' built (eg Pure Blondes) main seem to be as big, or close

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I don't doubt that there are different characteristics with the use of the wing mast as to de-powering and bleeding off but no rig in the world will bleed off all that head power at a weather mark bear away. As was seen a few weeks back on the first fresh NE'r in small rigs, only 5 boats made it around the course. As the No1 rigs have got bigger, so have the No2's to keep enough overlap between the two, making the boats near un-sailable at over 20 knots of wind. Is this a good thing?

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Oh yeah for sure they(#2) grow

I don't think we've seen it all yet as the sail replacement cycle is over 24 months

ie 1rig gets bigger now but you can't stamp in the your next 2rig for another 12months

Its an arms race that is limiting big breeze suitability but how do you stop that

Mandate reef points in the #2 ?

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Its an arms race that is limiting big breeze suitability but how do you stop that

By not calling the race off in conditions that are sailable at 25 knots an under. A race is canned now at the thought of some damage to the League's investment in the boats as they are unsailable at lower max wind speeds due to the sail area increases in the lowest rig. Start the race and they will soon sort the rigs to suit otherwise what is the purpose of rig height restrictions alone without a sail area restriction?

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.....snip....... what is the purpose of rig height restrictions alone without a sail area restriction?

 

.....it creates an arena for wild development of area with restricted mast--fun to watch!

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I don't doubt that there are different characteristics with the use of the wing mast as to de-powering and bleeding off but no rig in the world will bleed off all that head power at a weather mark bear away. As was seen a few weeks back on the first fresh NE'r in small rigs, only 5 boats made it around the course. As the No1 rigs have got bigger, so have the No2's to keep enough overlap between the two, making the boats near un-sailable at over 20 knots of wind. Is this a good thing?

I am not sure that i read this the same way as you do. For me, being able to get around the course was never about the size of the No2 rig but more to do with the sea state. If it was a big run out tide and a big NE'r, you were in for a real fight to get around. If it was a flood tide and flat, no worries, mate!

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I don't doubt that there are different characteristics with the use of the wing mast as to de-powering and bleeding off but no rig in the world will bleed off all that head power at a weather mark bear away. As was seen a few weeks back on the first fresh NE'r in small rigs, only 5 boats made it around the course. As the No1 rigs have got bigger, so have the No2's to keep enough overlap between the two, making the boats near un-sailable at over 20 knots of wind. Is this a good thing?

I am not sure that i read this the same way as you do. For me, being able to get around the course was never about the size of the No2 rig but more to do with the sea state. If it was a big run out tide and a big NE'r, you were in for a real fight to get around. If it was a flood tide and flat, no worries, mate!

An ebb tide NE'r is just that, a great challenge of wind against tide but was rarely something where only 5 boats out of 20 after multiple swims could greet the finish line. 2 weeks ago was an embarrassment v's past years from experience. The wings are shorter, the rigs and boats way lighter, the hull designs are safer, the top crews are well practised yet we get 5 finishers!!!

The No 2 rigs are way oversized in the head making the boats docile when not at speed and near impossible to bear away. People used to love watching/racing 18's in a fresh breeze. Now its whoever has the least swims. Is that racing?

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Maybe the next logical step would be to leagize an extra smaller set of sails for the small mast. Would be cheaper in the long run than flogging oversize sails around on 20kt+ days.

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logic is strong but ...

each set of sails can only 'cost' every 2 yrs so that cost is kinda fixed

 

2nd jib 'growing' is not the problem, its tacked down well inside the 1. As bat points out the '2' main is the one getting larger in order to maintain some overlap on the 'growing' #1 rigs

 

Overlap is highly desirable of course

 

Alex Vallings and Woodys #2s have reef points and they've demonstrated they are willing to use them, seems to be one practical solution, both of these sail in the SF Bay regatta not surprisingly.

should it be mandated ?

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Skiff-Chicks-Upwind2-1.jpg

 

...hayyyyy,,all this talk about rigs an stuff......you guys are trying to hide the skiffchicks!!!.....y'aren't a bit 'fraidy,are yeh???..........gooooooo Skiffchicks!!!

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I don't doubt that there are different characteristics with the use of the wing mast as to de-powering and bleeding off but no rig in the world will bleed off all that head power at a weather mark bear away. As was seen a few weeks back on the first fresh NE'r in small rigs, only 5 boats made it around the course. As the No1 rigs have got bigger, so have the No2's to keep enough overlap between the two, making the boats near un-sailable at over 20 knots of wind. Is this a good thing?

I am not sure that i read this the same way as you do. For me, being able to get around the course was never about the size of the No2 rig but more to do with the sea state. If it was a big run out tide and a big NE'r, you were in for a real fight to get around. If it was a flood tide and flat, no worries, mate!

An ebb tide NE'r is just that, a great challenge of wind against tide but was rarely something where only 5 boats out of 20 after multiple swims could greet the finish line. 2 weeks ago was an embarrassment v's past years from experience. The wings are shorter, the rigs and boats way lighter, the hull designs are safer, the top crews are well practised yet we get 5 finishers!!!

The No 2 rigs are way oversized in the head making the boats docile when not at speed and near impossible to bear away. People used to love watching/racing 18's in a fresh breeze. Now its whoever has the least swims. Is that racing?

 

totally agree...specially when i hear guys like Woody say the skiffs sail like yachts now...all the skiffs have become is a race for the biggest possible sail area

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Results determine design FULL STOP! That is what a skiff is about. That is why they exist in their current form, they are evolutions of boats past. If something is fast, others will adopt it, if its proven wrong a few years later it will disappear.

 

This inevitably promotes fads. It's unfortunate but unavoidable. We are looking at a lot of square top mains these days that will go away eventually. Mark my words.

 

The restrictions in rigs also restricts design in one respect (outright speed) but encourages another ( making your rig work over a wide wind range) which is more relevant to the sailing world in general. As a former 12ft skiff sailor I find the 18's rules disappointing but that's life. The 12's can continue to push great ideas out there and the rest of the sailing world can choose to use them or not. We endured everyone telling us our mainsails looked stupid until the AC boats took them on.....

 

I think the third set of sails or a reef will make them the boats that they should be in 20-30 kts. Yes that's right 30kts. It's easily possible with all their 2nd rig standing rigging as is. Not calling races off is great viewing.

 

Look up 18 ft skiff on YouTube and in the first page is always the footage of Nokia in Auckland(?) in lots of breeze still setting the chute because the can. That's what a skiff is to me and a lot of people who have sailed them in the past.

 

Big ups to Jono by the way, because trying something new is why we all are where we are!

 

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And also big ups to the skiff chicks. I really hope they are able to persevere to gain the skills they need and have the opportunity to match it to a boat that's fast and suited to their weight.

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I don't doubt that there are different characteristics with the use of the wing mast as to de-powering and bleeding off but no rig in the world will bleed off all that head power at a weather mark bear away. As was seen a few weeks back on the first fresh NE'r in small rigs, only 5 boats made it around the course. As the No1 rigs have got bigger, so have the No2's to keep enough overlap between the two, making the boats near un-sailable at over 20 knots of wind. Is this a good thing?

I am not sure that i read this the same way as you do. For me, being able to get around the course was never about the size of the No2 rig but more to do with the sea state. If it was a big run out tide and a big NE'r, you were in for a real fight to get around. If it was a flood tide and flat, no worries, mate!

 

Interesting...the I14s have seen similar arguements after struggling to do all the desired racing they wanted last year in Weymouth. The vote for allowing 2nd mains has just failed I think due to valid concerns about budgets and the difference between the front and back of the fleet boats. The questions about wind strength/sea state seem to be very similar although I guess that the 18s are possibly more 'professional' teams due to the league system. Opinions always seem to be both divided and passionate though when trying to reach a solution understandably...

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totally agree...specially when i hear guys like Woody say the skiffs sail like yachts now...all the skiffs have become is a race for the biggest possible sail area

 

yeah thats how it works, and now they're maxxed out on the restricted mast height whats the point you're making?

 

how do yachts sail (in the above context)

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I'm pretty sure that yachts just put on more heaps sail area to suit the conditions (where the hell's that sarcasm button?)

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totally agree...specially when i hear guys like Woody say the skiffs sail like yachts now...all the skiffs have become is a race for the biggest possible sail area

 

yeah thats how it works, and now they're maxxed out on the restricted mast height whats the point you're making?

 

how do yachts sail (in the above context)

 

Woodys words, not mine,so i will not try to translate his meaning.

u figure it out!

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maybe the description meant they 'sail on the bubble', pinch like yachts when at the top or over the rigs range? dunno but can ask

 

what did YOU mean in the post ?

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maybe the description meant they 'sail on the bubble', pinch like yachts when at the top or over the rigs range? dunno but can ask

 

what did YOU mean in the post ?

 

from what ive seen of the skiffs over the past 20 years, its usually about lighter, stronger and smaller...more efficient skiff sailing...this latest trend of bigger and bigger sails just seams like a race to no where...the interesting part is the spinnakers are getting smaller and more efficient...but the skiffs are now getting heavier...heavier masts and booms to hold the large square tops...all this to go a bit faster down breeze range, but when it gets to a modest 10 knots, most skiffs now are way over powered and going slow...then the small rig has to be powerfull enough at 12 knots, meaning by 18-20 its game over...like Bat says..."is that racing"

 

my comments where based on Bats comment here... An ebb tide NE'r is just that, a great challenge of wind against tide but was rarely something where only 5 boats out of 20 after multiple swims could greet the finish line. 2 weeks ago was an embarrassment v's past years from experience. The wings are shorter, the rigs and boats way lighter, the hull designs are safer, the top crews are well practised yet we get 5 finishers!!!

The No 2 rigs are way oversized in the head making the boats docile when not at speed and near impossible to bear away. People used to love watching/racing 18's in a fresh breeze. Now its whoever has the least swims. Is that racing?

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...are the 18's -on- this sunday*,,or another week of break? :huh:

 

 

....*...I guess sunday is -today- in Aus already!

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...are the 18's -on- this sunday*,,or another week of break? :huh:

 

 

....*...I guess sunday is -today- in Aus already!

 

nothing till 13th Jan via League website calender

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...are the 18's -on- this sunday*,,or another week of break? :huh:

 

 

....*...I guess sunday is -today- in Aus already!

 

nothing till 13th Jan via League website calender

 

................................ :blink::( :( :(

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maybe the description meant they 'sail on the bubble', pinch like yachts when at the top or over the rigs range? dunno but can ask

 

what did YOU mean in the post ?

 

from what ive seen of the skiffs over the past 20 years, its usually about lighter, stronger and smaller...more efficient skiff sailing...this latest trend of bigger and bigger sails just seams like a race to no where...the interesting part is the spinnakers are getting smaller and more efficient...but the skiffs are now getting heavier...heavier masts and booms to hold the large square tops...all this to go a bit faster down breeze range, but when it gets to a modest 10 knots, most skiffs now are way over powered and going slow...then the small rig has to be powerfull enough at 12 knots, meaning by 18-20 its game over...like Bat says..."is that racing"

 

my comments where based on Bats comment here... An ebb tide NE'r is just that, a great challenge of wind against tide but was rarely something where only 5 boats out of 20 after multiple swims could greet the finish line. 2 weeks ago was an embarrassment v's past years from experience. The wings are shorter, the rigs and boats way lighter, the hull designs are safer, the top crews are well practised yet we get 5 finishers!!!

The No 2 rigs are way oversized in the head making the boats docile when not at speed and near impossible to bear away. People used to love watching/racing 18's in a fresh breeze. Now its whoever has the least swims. Is that racing?

I think you are wrong on a couple of points. First, these new rigs are not heavier. The boats still weigh in at the class minimum which has been around at the League fora fair while now. The stiffer masts are the same weight hy using far more expensive materials. When I fitted a Southern Spar, it was stiffer than the CST that everybody was using and lighter. Then CST started to use hi-modulus carbon as well and even reduced the size of the mast for the same weight and increased stiffness. With the booms, the last lot of new booms I saw, from Alex at CT, were stiffer and lighter than what everybody had been using.

 

I believe that the cross over is at about 14-15 knots. After the first lot of square tops came out, we were using the No.1 rig up to about 17-18 knots. Every season, it seemed like the big rigs were being used about 5 times for every 1 time the little rig came out. This caused a bit of an issue. No.1 rigs (the most expensive) were being replaced every season while the No2 rigs were lasting a lot longer and were being replaced befor ethey really needed to be because of new ideas, rather than because they were past their best.

 

Unfortunately, the simple fact is that the days of 18's racing in the really big breezes is coming to an end, for a number of reasons (more in a moment) and this means that the rigs are being moved down wind range. If you know you aren't going to race above, say, 28-30 knots with a big run out tide churning up the harbour, why make your rig suit those conditions?

 

So where is the issue? In the modern age, the club has to take a bit more responsibility than it used to. There are issues of liability that have, regrettably, come into the equation. Race officers cannot abdicate their responsibilities to run safe racing by simply saying it is at the sailor's own risk. This will not stand up in court any more, particularly as there is pressure to sail whenever racing is laid on (because of sponsors). In fact, skippers sign an agreement to sail each week that racing is organised.

 

The drowning of a young man in the USA while sailing an 18 (about 4 years ago) certainly made some of the committee review safety issues.

 

So we now end up with a vicious circle - the boats don't sail in big breeze so the little rigs become bigger which ensures they don't sail in a big breeze.......

Do I think it's good? Not really, but it is better than the alternative, which is the club exposing itself to a potential situation that might see the end of 18 footer sailing.

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...interesting Simon,,seems the egg came before the chicken,,thanks for clearing that up.

 

...hadn't heard of that mishap in the US,,,,,care to share details? :huh:

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video inside Skinny on the WING

 

 

 

yandy86856.jpg

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...hadn't heard of that mishap in the US,,,,,care to share details?

http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=81976

There have been a number of near misses in the 18's, all before I got involved with the fleet but this sent a bit of a shiver through the fleet. We sailed the next race with black ribbons on our rigs. Rules were brought in to make sure that every boat had a knife taped in a place that could be easily accessed after a capsize and trap harnesses had to be worn over all clothing so that it was possible to remove/cut off the harness without removing clothing. Investigations took plae to consider whether individual air supplies (like big wave surfers use) might be a solution. The one thing this reinforced is how important it is not to wear bouyancy when sailing an 18.

18's are just about the most dangerous dinghy I have sailed. when things go wrong, you get hurt. I think I escaped fairly lightly with nothing worse than a broken hand! A couple of years ago, Woody got pretty badly beaten up - I think he had concussion and broken ribs and his crew had to support him to keep his head above water.

FWIW, I personally think this whole liability thing is ridiculous but in Oz, "Compo" (compensation for injury) is a way of life. Recently, a woman got awarded Compo (from her employer) for an injury she sustained while having sex in her motel room, because she was on a business trip!

 

 

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. A couple of years ago, .. concussion and broken ribs

2012 - THIS year

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The image of the head of the jib/slot in that vid is pretty interesting, really maintains the symmetry all teh way to the head, I would imagine that that could add a bit of power and point all on its own.

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,,,maybe that perfume company that sponsored whats-her-name.

 

Launching her I14 program this weekend at BRYC. Tab on the bar and all I hear.

 

 

...er,,come again,,,,little miss 'round the world ' is getting into 14's???????

 

 

.......and what's the latest on them skiffchicks?? :wub:

 

Jessica has teamed up with Cam Dale of Herbie the twin outboard I14 fame and has been sailing on a B5 since winter. By all reports she's coping with the front end well. BTW she's a great role model for young girls getting stuck in and having a go at whatever they want to pursue.

does seem to be coping

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/A_yhSkGCMAEekv5.jpg:large

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What's the financial model these days with the 18s in Sydney? How many full time sailor? How many of the teams get their expenses covered by their sponsors?

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maybe the description meant they 'sail on the bubble', pinch like yachts when at the top or over the rigs range? dunno but can ask

 

what did YOU mean in the post ?

 

from what ive seen of the skiffs over the past 20 years, its usually about lighter, stronger and smaller...more efficient skiff sailing...this latest trend of bigger and bigger sails just seams like a race to no where...the interesting part is the spinnakers are getting smaller and more efficient...but the skiffs are now getting heavier...heavier masts and booms to hold the large square tops...all this to go a bit faster down breeze range, but when it gets to a modest 10 knots, most skiffs now are way over powered and going slow...then the small rig has to be powerfull enough at 12 knots, meaning by 18-20 its game over...like Bat says..."is that racing"

 

my comments where based on Bats comment here... An ebb tide NE'r is just that, a great challenge of wind against tide but was rarely something where only 5 boats out of 20 after multiple swims could greet the finish line. 2 weeks ago was an embarrassment v's past years from experience. The wings are shorter, the rigs and boats way lighter, the hull designs are safer, the top crews are well practised yet we get 5 finishers!!!

The No 2 rigs are way oversized in the head making the boats docile when not at speed and near impossible to bear away. People used to love watching/racing 18's in a fresh breeze. Now its whoever has the least swims. Is that racing?

I think you are wrong on a couple of points. First, these new rigs are not heavier. The boats still weigh in at the class minimum which has been around at the League fora fair while now. The stiffer masts are the same weight hy using far more expensive materials. When I fitted a Southern Spar, it was stiffer than the CST that everybody was using and lighter. Then CST started to use hi-modulus carbon as well and even reduced the size of the mast for the same weight and increased stiffness. With the booms, the last lot of new booms I saw, from Alex at CT, were stiffer and lighter than what everybody had been using.

 

I believe that the cross over is at about 14-15 knots. After the first lot of square tops came out, we were using the No.1 rig up to about 17-18 knots. Every season, it seemed like the big rigs were being used about 5 times for every 1 time the little rig came out. This caused a bit of an issue. No.1 rigs (the most expensive) were being replaced every season while the No2 rigs were lasting a lot longer and were being replaced befor ethey really needed to be because of new ideas, rather than because they were past their best.

 

Unfortunately, the simple fact is that the days of 18's racing in the really big breezes is coming to an end, for a number of reasons (more in a moment) and this means that the rigs are being moved down wind range. If you know you aren't going to race above, say, 28-30 knots with a big run out tide churning up the harbour, why make your rig suit those conditions?

 

So where is the issue? In the modern age, the club has to take a bit more responsibility than it used to. There are issues of liability that have, regrettably, come into the equation. Race officers cannot abdicate their responsibilities to run safe racing by simply saying it is at the sailor's own risk. This will not stand up in court any more, particularly as there is pressure to sail whenever racing is laid on (because of sponsors). In fact, skippers sign an agreement to sail each week that racing is organised.

 

The drowning of a young man in the USA while sailing an 18 (about 4 years ago) certainly made some of the committee review safety issues.

 

So we now end up with a vicious circle - the boats don't sail in big breeze so the little rigs become bigger which ensures they don't sail in a big breeze.......

 

Do I think it's good? Not really, but it is better than the alternative, which is the club exposing itself to a potential situation that might see the end of 18 footer sailing.

 

appreciate your comments here Simon...not trying to stir shit, just a few comments of yours maybe not correct..or things have moved on even further since you where in the 18s...from what ive heard with the new hi-mod carbon masts, they have been getting heavier in the last year or 2...to the point where weight correctors from the hull is being removed and that excess weight is going into more amd more stiffer heavier masts and booms...the latest C-Tech No1 mast is 16kgs rigged...thats seriously heavy in my opinion...and the new CST "wing" mast is 5-6kg heavier again than standard...so now i believe the cross over point of rigs is around the 12 knts range. at this breeze strength the small rigs are faster than big rigs

 

totally agree about your points re. safety and upper limits of no2 rigs and the liabilty the League must now be thinking about...will it mean the end of 18 footer sailing, like you say...hope not

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What's the financial model these days with the 18s in Sydney? How many full time sailor? How many of the teams get their expenses covered by their sponsors

There are no full time 18 footer sailors in the fleet. The club does own all the boats and the gear, so in theory all expenses are covered, but in reality, most teams pay for their own maintenance stuff. When it comes to new sails and rigs, it depends on how good your sponsor is and how generous the club is feeling! Some of the teams do buy some of their own sails (or even masts) and few teams get as many new sails as they would like! But overall, sailing an 18 doesn't really cost you very much.

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But overall, sailing an 18 doesn't really cost you very much.

 

Which is the main difference between Australia and the rest of the world ...

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which means the rest of the world need to organise sponsors, some do

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which means the rest of the world need to organise sponsors, some do

 

or find a big sailing club in one of aus richest suburbs with lots of pocker machines and a waterfront restaurant

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Yep ...

 

agreed Patrick...and heres a quote from SA front page today "The 18-Footers are incredible, but without legalized gambling, subsidized fees, and the selfless and obsessed Woody the fleet wouldn’t exist."

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which means the rest of the world need to organise sponsors, some do

 

or find a big sailing club in one of aus richest suburbs with lots of pocker machines and a waterfront restaurant

 

.....hmm,,not a bad idea!

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which means the rest of the world need to organise sponsors, some do

 

or find a big little sailing club .....

Yep ...

 

who ORGANISE sponsors

 

MOJO Wines

Gotta Love it 7

Fisher & Paykel

Southern Engineering

The Kitchen Maker

Lomax Financial Group

Appliances Online

Panasonic Lumix

Hartas Group

Rabbitohs Kenwood

Asko

Pure Blonde

Smeg

Thurlow Fisher Lawyers

Haier

Rag & Famish Hotel

Rabbitohs De'Longhi

 

 

and so on

 

overseas CST spars, C-Tech CT sailbattens & so on

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which means the rest of the world need to organise sponsors, some do

 

or find a big little sailing club .....

Yep ...

 

who ORGANISE sponsors

 

MOJO Wines

Gotta Love it 7

Fisher & Paykel

Southern Engineering

The Kitchen Maker

Lomax Financial Group

Appliances Online

Panasonic Lumix

Hartas Group

Rabbitohs Kenwood

Asko

Pure Blonde

Smeg

Thurlow Fisher Lawyers

Haier

Rag & Famish Hotel

Rabbitohs De'Longhi

 

 

and so on

 

overseas CST spars, C-Tech CT sailbattens & so on

If you think the sponsorship covers the costs of 18 footer racing, you would be wrong. Patos is correct.I cannot find my latest copy of the accounts, but the profits from the club are used to pay for a reasonable chunk of the sailing. This isn't the only club in Oz to do this, but is the most prominent one.

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