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Indio

Jury Notices & Decisions Thread

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Wondering:

1. How do you see which is OR1 and OR2?

2. When were each of these photos taken?

Alt_GG13SFOAUG13674.jpg

B2 (above) has 1 kingpost (+ smaller pod + board location)

B1 (below) has 2 kingposts (+ bigger pod + board location)

Alt_GG13SFOAUG13870.jpg

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You boggers still bleeding on about rudders should check out sail-worlds photos of OR training on the 2/9. And then stfu.

Thanks... they are now legal, one boat with side rudder-winglet the other flat... may be they will measure :-) 4 days before the event, they really had to be with the real solution!

 

http://www.sail-world.com/Photos_2013_6/Alt_GG13SFOAUG13870.jpg

 

 

>^ But is this picture Photoshoped, or is B2 using oversized symmetrical elevators?

http://www.sail-world.com/Photos_2013_6/Alt_GG13SFOAUG11468.jpg

 

Wondering:

1. How do you see which is OR1 and OR2?

2. When were each of these photos taken?

 

It's not easy to be 100% sure of all of these. But B1 has two kingposts underneath their bowsprit and wing support structure, whilst B2 has only on kinpost and also a shorter and agnled cover over the aft part of this structure. The article in SailWorld does not state clearly that all the pictures where taken the same day, but it looks like it roughly the same conditions so they probably are. If anyone can piece together the names on the crew, it should be easier to verify which boat have the symmetrical rudders that seems to be wider than BMax, and thus wouldn't measure.

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^ Bob202, try looking at things after you've put the crack pipe down. A fresh enlightenment may come to you if you can get open-minded.

 

OTUSA never wanted or needed IM's Safety Sized rudder specs. It's been obvious for forever; except to all the idiots drinking the koolaid. ;)

If this is the case Stingray, what is your explanation for B1 having over-beam symetric rudders?

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I think if you rang up OR and put the kwestchin you woud get put thru to Stingray.

 

Ime shore he woud be more than happy to help. Make shore yore sitting cumfortably.

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Would you guys stop with the rudders already please? If they race, it will be with rudders that measure full stop. This horse is well and truly dead.

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It's not easy to be 100% sure of all of these. But B1 has two kingposts underneath their bowsprit and wing support structure, whilst B2 has only on kinpost and also a shorter and agnled cover over the aft part of this structure. The article in SailWorld does not state clearly that all the pictures where taken the same day, but it looks like it roughly the same conditions so they probably are. If anyone can piece together the names on the crew, it should be easier to verify which boat have the symmetrical rudders that seems to be wider than BMax, and thus wouldn't measure.

 

The photo attributions have dates. It appears the article picked up on the change in rudders because it seems to focus most on B1 "before" (August 24) and "after" (August 30) the modification.

 

Now the real speculation would be: why, at some point reasonably close to the Rule 69 hearing, would OR suddenly mod B1 to provide Ainslie with experience sailing with asym rudders? Could it be that he needs to "get up to speed" quickly?

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You boggers still bleeding on about rudders should check out sail-worlds photos of OR training on the 2/9. And then stfu.

Thanks... they are now legal, one boat with side rudder-winglet the other flat... may be they will measure :-) 4 days before the event, they really had to be with the real solution!

 

http://www.sail-world.com/Photos_2013_6/Alt_GG13SFOAUG13870.jpg

 

 

>>^ But is this picture Photoshoped, or is B2 using oversized symmetrical elevators?

http://www.sail-world.com/Photos_2013_6/Alt_GG13SFOAUG11468.j

pglockquote>

 

Wondering:

1. How do you see which is OR1 and OR2?

2. When were each of these photos taken?

It's not easy to be 100% sure of all of these. But B1 has two kingposts underneath their bowsprit and wing support structure, whilst B2 has only on kinpost and also a shorter and agnled cover over the aft part of this structure. The article in SailWorld does not state clearly that all the pictures where taken the same day, but it looks like it roughly the same conditions so they probably are. If anyone can piece together the names on the crew, it should be easier to verify which boat have the symmetrical rudders that seems to be wider than BMax, and thus wouldn't measure.

 

 

Yes it does, according to the caption in the SW article:

http://www.sail-world.com/Europe/Americas-Cup:-Oracle-Team-USA-training-session-images/113952

 

Alt_GG13SFOAUG11468.jpg

Oracle Team USA - Two boat testing session San Francisco (USA) August 24, 2013 - Guilain Grenier-Oracle Racing© Click Here to view large photo

 

Alt_GG13SFOAUG13870.jpg

Oracle Team USA - Two boat testing session San Francisco (USA) August 30, 2013 - Guilain Grenier-Oracle Racing© Click Here to view large photo

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only an aside, but they still don't have the ACTV gear installed. Another late surgery...

 

Edit: ssshhhhh

Towers are there on B2, pic taken 8-30

 

DSC_3148_zpsfd9bbb63.jpg

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^ so, they have selected the boat, at least...

maybe

Isn't part of the IJ investigation to do with modifying the AC45 cross structure?

How many 'AC72's have OTUSA actually sailed?

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only an aside, but they still don't have the ACTV gear installed. Another late surgery...

 

Edit: ssshhhhh

Towers are there on B2, pic taken 8-30

 

DSC_3148_zpsfd9bbb63.jpg

Cheers!

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OR1 - Sym rudder foils and no media towers

OR2 - Asym rudder foils, media towers and fancy aero fairing under jib.

 

Safe to say for sure which boat OR plans to use? I think so.

 

WetHog :ph34r:

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^ It turned out that the picture with the symmetrical rudder on B1 was taken August 24th, and on the pictures from the 30th they have asymmetrical rudders with a small tip on the outboard end of the elevator.

 

So technically I guess that rudder will be rule compliant now, and media towers must be possible to switch in an evening if they want to, so I guess they can still use B1 (altough it would be a surprise if the didn't manage to design a faster boat on their version 2!).

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I'm wondering whether they have found that the easier to handle B2 is not matching etnz b2 with its post racing speed increases so they are being forced to reconsider the faster but harder to handle B1 in a high risk strategy. Maybe the 10 boat builders from nz are there to get it to measure

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Did I miss something? Their is a lot of rudder talk here under the Jury Notices & Decisions. Is there a new protest or decision or are we off topic? I thought we have already been down this road and back. I took a look into here to see if their is any news on Weight-Gate. Now my whole office smells of dead beaten horse. Pee You!

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Did I miss something? Their is a lot of rudder talk here under the Jury Notices & Decisions. Is there a new protest or decision or are we off topic? I thought we have already been down this road and back. I took a look into here to see if their is any news on Weight-Gate. Now my whole office smells of dead beaten horse. Pee You!

Flogged to death. Buried. But a couple of slow news days here so dug up again and flogged some more. Dead horse flagellation is still more interesting than the YAC, apparently. Which, in all sincerity, seems a pity.

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So your saying IJ on Oracles behalf is waiting for things to get really bad in Syria to announce it's decision. Or are they going to are they going to protect oracle the way baseball is protecting Arod/Yankees until the end of the session. Seems silly to me they need to make a decision now and get new media of the event. The battle between good and evil will appeal to the none sailing crowd. Plus there ability to be just when some many other sports are about protecting themselves.

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^

 

The longer the announcement is delayed, the more I think the IJ is viewing this as a very big deal. If it was "rogue elements" and "ridiculous mistake" with a few shore-crew reprimanded, it would have been done and dusted by now.

 

But hey, I'm really just adding to useless word count here right now.

The more sensitive issues around which the Jury is dancing are the active roles of Barclay and Murray in the cover-up. I think the Jury would be very mindful of getting their decisions on Proto Art60 and R69 locked up tight legally, before they address the Barclay-Murray dirty hands...

If they were to toss Murray, I'm sure ETNZ will have no problem nominating Harold Bennett for the role?

 

Shit if it wasn't for Harold starting that second race, AC33 could still be going on in the courts or somewhere in Europe, or the Middle East or somewhere that the US of A isn't a favourite with the locals.

I don't think Murray will get tossed this close to the Match, but he's unlikely to have a role in any future ACs, whether or not ACRM survives beyond AC34. Besides, we need Bennett where he is to keep an eye on the PRO and Murray :P

The PRO doesn't need any watching.

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I guess that writer doesn't watch any professional sports! In the general public Oracle means software and Lance means cycling or Arod means baseball. Cheating in any sports makes headlines and the headlines keep coming until there is resolution. Than the headlines turn into footnotes. The questions for Oracle are they going to be headlines or footnotes this week.

 

 

Perhaps a bit naive, but threads of truth as well me thinks:

http://www.sanfranciscosentinel.com/?p=171304

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out of curiosity, how long does it take the MC to measure a boat?

 

does ETNZ/ Oracle give the MC a call and say, "come by in about an hour to measure and give us our cert" or do they have to schedule something, and it take MC x hours to do it or is it y days to do it?

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Perhaps a bit naive, but threads of truth as well me thinks:

 

http://www.sanfranciscosentinel.com/?p=171304

I thought for a moment Bitter Peter might have penned that, but then I noticed the use and spelling of "foibles" put outside Bitter Pete's shallow vocabulary repertoire. And then I noticed the frequent use of "alleged" and "scandal", "fawning", "questionable allegation", etc and spinbot popped into mind :lol:

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Scuttlebutt @scuttbutt

We predict the @americascup will be in mainstream media today for all the wrong reasons. #OracleCheating

 

is there a press conference set yet?

 

Ooo.

 

I dont know.

 

You think there would be a presser immediately?

 

I would assume a late night written release of the punishment - then maybe a presser in the next few days?

 

Kinda mix it in with the racing like no big deal???

 

Maybe?? haha

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OK just in from the AC.com site

 

The IJ Has Ruled that as a Punishment to Fit the Crime

 

GGYC's RedBull Youth AC-45 team shall be Tossed out of Every Race it finishes in Last Place :o:o:o:o

 

It was the Only Fitting Thing to Do B)

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I am hearing that Jimmy is gone plus 4 shore crew. Just a rumor, but a good one from someone who should know.

 

 

Thats a shame for JS if true. What a waste of a sailor. You spend years prepping for this match, only to have it pulled away 4 days out.

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I am hearing that Jimmy is gone plus 4 shore crew. Just a rumor, but a good one from someone who should know.

Interesting. No points clipped?

OR b2 supposed to be out today I think, let's see who's driving.

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I am hearing that Jimmy is gone plus 4 shore crew. Just a rumor, but a good one from someone who should know.

Wow...this is gonna hurt some EGO's..

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Must confess I wondered about that bloke as soon as he agreed to participate in those ridiculous waterslide, fighter-aircraft and other irrelevant distractions.

 

However, being complicit in a cheating escapade shows a high level of daftness.

 

But for now it is just a rumour.

 

If true, Larry will be congratulating himself on hiring Ainslie (to keep him out of other syndicates).

 

It will be interesting because, for month after month, Deano and Ben went against each other (on the old "A" and "B" boats).

 

They know each other quite well.

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Must confess I wondered about that bloke as soon as he agreed to participate in those ridiculous waterslide, fighter-aircraft and other irrelevant distractions.

 

However, being complicit in a cheating escapade shows a high level of daftness.

 

But for now it is just a rumour.

 

If true, Larry will be congratulating himself on hiring Ainslie (to keep him out of other syndicates).

 

It will be interesting because, for month after month, Deano and Ben went against each other (on the old "A" and "B" boats).

 

They know each other quite well.

so do jimmy and dean from their days on the wmrt.

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It is absolutely just a rumor.

 

If indeed Jimmy is found to have been complicit though and therefore the whole thing rises to far more than 'low-level cheating', there is no way that Oracle should be able to escape serious punishment. No way in hell.

 

If JS goes down, it's sailing's version of the Lance Armstrong mess. Smaller because sailing is smaller, but no less impactful.

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out of curiosity, how long does it take the MC to measure a boat?

 

does ETNZ/ Oracle give the MC a call and say, "come by in about an hour to measure and give us our cert" or do they have to schedule something, and it take MC x hours to do it or is it y days to do it?

I havn't looked at the measurement procedure on the AC72 enough to know and of course you don't neccesarily have to measure everything every time you want to change a cert, and they may well have done large portions of this even before their first official cert, but I measured and remeasured many 12m's when working in Newport and times are as follows:

 

Out of water measurement (girths, lengths, rudder & trim tab inspections) usually took 4-6 hours. This would be redone after any major ballast change, but the system allowed for small changes to be adjusted for based on a range of measurements around the intended flotation (note, the range system was not used back when the 12's were used in the cup, so back then, any ballast change would have required full re-measure).

 

In water measurement of freeboards to estabilish rating waterline usually took 2 hours and required very calm weather. Often we would have to reschedule several times.

 

Mast measurement (out of boat) usually took about 2 hours and measurement in the water to confirm took about 1 hr. We would never try to do it all in one day as you have to do the out of water first and by the time you were done and got the boat into the water there would be too much wind. Mast was first measured out of the boat for accuracy and ease, then checked in place for things like J, Spin pole length and to confirm the Boom above deck height.

 

I never did sail measurement on 12's, but on 6's (similar, just smaller) it took maybe 20 mins per sail.

 

My guess is that hull measurements have already been done and they know where they need to float. Wing Sail measurements are also probably already done, and awaiting final inspection of details/fairings/etc. to write off. My guess is they havn't bothered measuring rudders yet as they will wait till they decide on a final arrangment, but they would have been in touch with the MC about all their options. Biggest thing remaining is presumably finalizing control systems and getting them written off, then getting approval for fairings as there are some limitations (like extending behind media pod), and getting a final weighing on the official scales at final arrangement (I am sure they have had preliminary weighings with the official scales for reference).

 

I would think they could finish their first cert (if they havn't already) in a few hours one morning.

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It is absolutely just a rumor.

 

If indeed Jimmy is found to have been complicit though and therefore the whole thing rises to far more than 'low-level cheating', there is no way that Oracle should be able to escape serious punishment. No way in hell.

 

If JS goes down, it's sailing's version of the Lance Armstrong mess. Smaller because sailing is smaller, but no less impactful.

Is it possible that the jury would ding Jimmy simply because he was the skipper even if he were found not to have participated intentionally in or otherwise been aware of the improper modifications? In effect saying that the buck stops with him and that he is ultimately responsible for what happened on his boat even though he may have only been negligent in not knowing?

 

My question really goes to the legal responsibility of the skipper and is not so much focused on Jimmy in particular (although this is clearly the most recent and relevant potential example).

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It is absolutely just a rumor.

 

If indeed Jimmy is found to have been complicit though and therefore the whole thing rises to far more than 'low-level cheating', there is no way that Oracle should be able to escape serious punishment. No way in hell.

 

If JS goes down, it's sailing's version of the Lance Armstrong mess. Smaller because sailing is smaller, but no less impactful.

Is it possible that the jury would ding Jimmy simply because he was the skipper even if he were found not to have participated intentionally in or otherwise been aware of the improper modifications? In effect saying that the buck stops with him and that he is ultimately responsible for what happened on his boat even though he may have only been negligent in not knowing?

 

My question really goes to the legal responsibility of the skipper and is not so much focused on Jimmy in particular (although this is clearly the most recent and relevant potential example).

Possibly, but if that were the case, then the chances are Ben would also be flicked as his boat was also out of class.....so if they only flick JS you have to assume that the jury believes he was fully aware, if not actually right at the centre of it....

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NO

If JS is booted its because he was involved in either the cheating, attempted coverup or both.

 

Finding Cleans rumour hard to swallow then, because it seems unlikely that Jimmy would be the only sailor to know about this.

Could be true, but will treat it as BS like all the other rumours until the ruling comes out.

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^^

Usually the last part of the process is towing over to Alameda to get weighed.

.....

In water measurement of freeboards to estabilish rating waterline usually took 2 hours and required very calm weather. Often we would have to reschedule several times.

....

Very enlightening post, thanks

 

Am wondering if the measurements in the Alameda "lagoon" are similar to what ibsailn mentions, i.e. determining MWP, rather than weight. Do boats go there sans wing?

Given the narrow displacement variance, I would imagine they would place a combination of weights in various locations to emulate say different daggerboards, bowsprits etc.

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http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/other-sports/9121857/Americas-Cup-veteran-blasts-farcical-regatta

 

 

extract from above link

 

"Fisher is writing the third volume of his historical America's Cup book "An Absorbing Contest" though he concedes this event may provide better copy for his next tome, "The Poisoned Chalice" which chronicles the dirty tricks of the Cup and is going to be subtitled "The Fascination of Sin".

He believes when the jury does rule against Oracle - yesterday was another day, another delay - it will be electric.

Fisher predicted "huge" fines, a loss of points and bans from the cheating scandal that has enveloped the defenders.

The delay with the jury decision hasn't surprised Fisher because of the enormity of their decision.

"They have a lot to write. There are two lawyers in their own right [on the jury], they will want all the i's dotted and t's crossed ... and rightly so."

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My question really goes to the legal responsibility of the skipper

"Legal" or for the purposes of the IJ? The latter I guess.

 

Governance of sailing focusses more on the owner than skipper, perhaps as a historical development where gentlemen owned racing yachts but skippers weren't necessarily gentlemen! Normal RRS has several references to "owner" which have been stripped from RRS AC but RRS 69.2.c still refers to "owner". Who "owned" OR's AC45s for this purpose is an interesting question but I don't think the IJ would be very interested in shell companies.

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I'm told my rumor is 'wrong'. vamos a ver. I expect decision immediately after I post my Video from NZL.

 

fixed :o:lol::lol::lol::lol:

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I'm told my rumor is 'wrong'. vamos a ver. I expect decision immediately after RB racing is over.

Ah, the perils of passing rumors. Especially if you're a journo I would think.

Thanks for the update.

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I'm told my rumor is 'wrong'. vamos a ver. I expect decision immediately after RB racing is over.

Ah, the perils of passing rumors. Especially if you're a journo I would think.

Thanks for the update.

+1

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I havn't looked at the measurement procedure on the AC72 enough to know and of course you don't neccesarily have to measure everything every time you want to change a cert, and they may well have done large portions of this even before their first official cert, but I measured and remeasured many 12m's when working in Newport and times are as follows:

.....

thank you for your explanation... found it extremely informative

 

 

I'm told my rumor is 'wrong'. vamos a ver. I expect decision immediately after RB racing is over.

 

RB racing over for today (Tuesday) or tomorrow as in racing is over over no more racing?

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I'm told my rumor is 'wrong'. vamos a ver. I expect decision immediately after RB racing is over.

 

I've often wondered if specific false rumors are deliberately planted in order to find leaks in an organisation.

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I'm told my rumor is 'wrong'. vamos a ver. I expect decision immediately after RB racing is over.

Clean you have to be more careful .

 

You are playing some of the ET fans like a yo yo :)

 

Now all the parties in the planning stage for tonight have been put on hold.

 

This issue is like life and death in some regions :)

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I've often wondered if specific false rumors are deliberately planted in order to find leaks in an organisation.

Yes. I've seen it done.

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I'm told my rumor is 'wrong'. vamos a ver. I expect decision immediately after RB racing is over.

Clean you have to be more careful .

 

You are playing some of the ET fans like a yo yo :)

 

Now all the parties in the planning stage for tonight have been put on hold.

 

This issue is like life and death in some regions :)

"It's only a game, not a matter of life and death"

"No, You are right, it's much more important than that"

Bill Shankly, Liverpool FC, a long time ago.

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Media strategy = Choose a good day to bury bad news.

 

Oracle will be looking for a major world event to bury the jury decision under.

 

Larry has been on the phone to Obama. The intention is to fire the first missiles in 10..9..8..7..6..5..4..3..2..1..BLASTOFF!

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^^

Usually the last part of the process is towing over to Alameda to get weighed.

>>.....

In water measurement of freeboards to estabilish rating waterline usually took 2 hours and required very calm weather. Often we would have to reschedule several times.

....

Very enlightening post, thanks

Am wondering if the measurements in the Alameda "lagoon" are similar to what ibsailn mentions, i.e. determining MWP, rather than weight. Do boats go there sans wing?

Given the narrow displacement variance, I would imagine they would place a combination of weights in various locations to emulate say different daggerboards, bowsprits etc.

 

Not in the lagoon.

Weighing has been done at Bay Ship, 1/2 way down the Estuary.

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My rumor from informed souce is: 4 Jimmy's and a Mr.Clean will get tossed out of the AC. <_<

 

My rumour from an informed source is that Clean's reliable source is in Area 51, just like his frickin video

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I'm told my rumor is 'wrong'. vamos a ver. I expect decision immediately after RB racing is over.

Jesus! This is why we should ignore them.

I normally would, but thought (foolishly) coming from Clean it might have a better shot.

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Stupid penalty.

 

First off the ACWS is NOT the AC!!!!!! So why the IJ is mixing the two is beyond me.

 

Secondly, If teams members were found guilty of cheating, how are they not banned from sailing for at least a year???

 

What about the finnacial losses to the other competitors suffered since they didnt get to beat their chests as the ACWS champs?

 

Flame away!!!

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I am not an OR fan but I disaprove any penalty for the match, ACWS is not the AC.

They may have very good reasons though.

 

Clearly they have no proof that OR cheated in the AC because it hasn't started, but (if they have docked points), then the rationale will probably be along the lines that if they restrict punishment to the ACWS, then there is little dis-incentive to do it again.

 

If its any consolation, these 2 points will make no difference to the outcome.

Losing one or more starting sailors would affect them much worse.

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I am not an OR fan but I disaprove any penalty for the match, ACWS is not the AC.

They may have very good reasons though.

I'm with you on that.

Assuming this is not rumor, it tells me the "more to follow" bit could be rough.

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Stupid penalty.

 

First off the ACWS is NOT the AC!!!!!! So why the IJ is mixing the two is beyond me.

 

Secondly, If teams members were found guilty of cheating, how are they not banned from sailing for at least a year???

 

What about the finnacial losses to the other competitors suffered since they didnt get to beat their chests as the ACWS champs?

 

Flame away!!!

 

Patience, patience...

 

http://youtu.be/kXvj7m-lQEI

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I am not an OR fan but I disaprove any penalty for the match, ACWS is not the AC.

They may have very good reasons though.

You could compare this to doping, and if you get caught cheating in Tour de France you will not get to compete in the World Championship.

I guess we get a better understanding once we get the full ruling.

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