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volfan615

North 3DL, Quantum Fusion M or UK MatriX

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I need some help with new sails for a J/100. These will be used primarily for Wednesday nights and weekend club racing. I plan to use my current 6 year old sails for daysailing.

 

Is there any big advantage of one over the others? All of the quotes are within $300 of each other. I appreciate any advice you might have. I've been out of sailing for about 8 years so trying to catch up.

 

Thanks!

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See which sailmaker will come help you get your rig and crew tuned up for the new sails and go with that one.

 

That's a good point. I'm in Middle TN so not really close to any of the lofts.

 

 

How much durability are you willing to sacrifice for performance?

 

I would like to be able to get 3-4 years out of them. About 24 wed. nights and 6 weekend regattas a year.

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See which sailmaker will come help you get your rig and crew tuned up for the new sails and go with that one.

 

That's a good point. I'm in Middle TN so not really close to any of the lofts.

 

 

How much durability are you willing to sacrifice for performance?

 

I would like to be able to get 3-4 years out of them. About 24 wed. nights and 6 weekend regattas a year.

 

Perhaps look at more long life products such as marathon 3dl or similar offerings from Quantum? The reintroduced Tape Drive from UK might be a longer life alternative to matriX with less performance tradeoff than the sails incorporating taffeta?

 

Edit: Not aware of any sail lofts of any kind in the middle of TN. Wilmington NC or Charleston is the closest UK. North in Charleston SC and Beauford or Southport NC. Quantum in Charleston. The question then becomes which of those sailmakers wants your business bad enough to drive to TN to help measure, set up and tune your boat for your new sails.

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I need some help with new sails for a J/100. These will be used primarily for Wednesday nights and weekend club racing. I plan to use my current 6 year old sails for daysailing.

 

Is there any big advantage of one over the others? All of the quotes are within $300 of each other. I appreciate any advice you might have. I've been out of sailing for about 8 years so trying to catch up.

 

Thanks!

 

Out of curiosity, where do you sail a j100 in Tennnessee?

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I know nothing of the lake (reservior?) short of what I just read on wikipedia. Do they allow stinkpots?

 

Which boat from Marblehead?

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Good advice above, however, I doubt there will be many sailmakers chomping at the bit to drive out to measure. Then turn around and drive out again to go sailing with you. Just the reality. Judging only on durability, Ulman's GPL, then Q's Fusion, then North's 3DL.

 

The North's may be the fastest, but (from my experience) they don't last. They are light, and fast.

The Q's are fast enough for me, and honestly if ulman had a closer loft I'd probably have a set of GPL's on my boat. I've been very happy w/ Quantums product and I hear GPLs last even longer.

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3DL with taffeta for your main. 3DL headsails. The little extra weight in taffeta for your sized boat is well worth the trade-off in longevity. If all you are doing is club racing, put together a replacement schedule for your sails, as they will wear out at different rates. Talk to your sailmaker about this. This way you are not waiting 4 years for a new jib when you need one every 2-3, and you're not replacing your main in 3 when it could last you 5-6.

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Boat is a one design, so there's no need to go out and measure, all of the dims are on file. PIck the best service loft if price and materials are the same. If you want a real opinion, let us know what each loft is quoting (material, not price)

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Gpl is also probably 25% heavier than a string sail...

 

You might be very surprised. Having weighed many GPL sails to compare with membranes you'll find that in a boat this size the weight will be very close & in fact in many cases a well built GPL sail may be lighter.

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Boat is a one design, so there's no need to go out and measure, all of the dims are on file. PIck the best service loft if price and materials are the same. If you want a real opinion, let us know what each loft is quoting (material, not price)

 

Here are the details of the quotes. I'm also adding info for a Doyle D4 quote I received..

 

 

Quantum Sails Charleston

Quantum Fusion M Mainsail:

Construction: Designed using Quantum's iQ suite of computational tools.

One piece membrane construction utilizing 13000 dpi 100% Black Aramid

yarns in an integrated network of straight X Yellow Aramid fibers

sandwiched between polyester films. Assembled using aerospace quality

lamination techniques and thermo-set adhesives, with integrated corner

and batten pocket reinforcements.

Includes: Spreader patches, high modulus leech and foot cords with cleats

and purchase systems as necessary, telltales, draft stripes, sail numbers,

cunningham, sail ties, drawstring sailbag, 2 Full, 3 Mid Batten Pockets,

RBS Epoxy 15mm Battens, Reefs (1)

 

Quantum Fusion M Jib

Construction: Designed using Quantum's iQ suite of computational tools.

One piece membrane construction utilizing 13000 dpi 100% Black Aramid

yarns in an integrated network of straight X Yellow Aramid fibers

sandwiched between polyester films. Assembled using aerospace quality

lamination techniques and thermo-set adhesives, with integrated corner

and batten pocket reinforcements.

Includes: Spreader patches, high modulus leech and foot cords with cleats

and purchase systems as necessary, telltales, draft stripes, sail numbers,

drawstring sail bag., Vertical 3 Battens Batten Pockets, RBS Epoxy 15mm

Battens

 

 

 

North Sails New Orleans

The Main is a 3DL 680 (70/30 Aramid/Carbon) 12,600 Dpi Four Full Battens

Performance Film

Standard Reef (1)

Full length Battens (4)

Insignia

Country Code

Sail Numbers

Trim Stripes (3)

Cunningham

Integral Foot Shelf (loose footed-strap or clew slug)

Roll Bag

 

Furling Jib with Battens 3DL 680 (70/30 Aramid/Carbon) 12,600 Dpi 105%

Performance Film

UV Leech and Foot (PSA Dacron White)

Vertical Battens (3)

Trim Stripes (3)

Stanchion Patches

Tell Tale Window (1)

 

 

 

 

UK Sails Houston

MatriX Mainsail Technora Carbon with one reef and 1+3 batten configuration

MatriX Jib 105% Taffeta Mylar/carbon with UV protection

 

 

 

 

Doyle

Class Race Mainsail D4 Twaron/Carbon 15, Std Film/Film

Includes: 3 Standard Battens, 1 Full Batten, 1 Reef, Shape Stripes, Numbers,

Headboard, Cunningham, Maximum Girth, Bag

Class Jib 100% D4 Twaron 15, Std Film/Film

Includes: Shape Stripes, Vertical Battens, Standard Turtle

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DP D4 is some of the toughest sails I have experienced - should easily last 5 seasons with your somewhat limited use - IF - roll all your sails - don't walk on them when rolled - make sure they dry out and don't get baked in the hot sun - clean and dry them at the end of every season and store them dry. Those guidelines probably make the biggest difference in how long they will last (easily doubling the lifespan). Have had some very good experience with Doyle Stratis (carbon/twaron) as well - get them sent to me from NZL) rolled so they have NEVER been flaked/bricked - still looking awesome (absolutely NO delam and superb shape). Going to full battens on the main will easily add 50% to the lifespan.

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Oh and BTW - you can get D4 via almost any sailmaker so choose one that you trust in terms of design and service. I personally use Doyle in NZL and the local (ex Doyle - now Evolution) loft for service

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Boat is a one design, so there's no need to go out and measure, all of the dims are on file. PIck the best service loft if price and materials are the same. If you want a real opinion, let us know what each loft is quoting (material, not price)

 

Here are the details of the quotes. I'm also adding info for a Doyle D4 quote I received..

 

 

 

Quantum Sails Charleston

 

Quantum Fusion M Mainsail:

 

Construction: Designed using Quantum's iQ suite of computational tools.

One piece membrane construction utilizing 13000 dpi 100% Black Aramid

yarns in an integrated network of straight X Yellow Aramid fibers

sandwiched between polyester films. Assembled using aerospace quality

lamination techniques and thermo-set adhesives, with integrated corner

and batten pocket reinforcements.

 

Includes: Spreader patches, high modulus leech and foot cords with cleats

and purchase systems as necessary, telltales, draft stripes, sail numbers,

cunningham, sail ties, drawstring sailbag, 2 Full, 3 Mid Batten Pockets,

RBS Epoxy 15mm Battens, Reefs (1)

 

 

Quantum Fusion M Jib

 

Construction: Designed using Quantum's iQ suite of computational tools.

One piece membrane construction utilizing 13000 dpi 100% Black Aramid

yarns in an integrated network of straight X Yellow Aramid fibers

sandwiched between polyester films. Assembled using aerospace quality

lamination techniques and thermo-set adhesives, with integrated corner

and batten pocket reinforcements.

Includes: Spreader patches, high modulus leech and foot cords with cleats

and purchase systems as necessary, telltales, draft stripes, sail numbers,

drawstring sail bag., Vertical 3 Battens Batten Pockets, RBS Epoxy 15mm

Battens

 

 

 

 

North Sails New Orleans

 

The Main is a 3DL 680 (70/30 Aramid/Carbon) 12,600 Dpi Four Full Battens

Performance Film

Standard Reef (1)

Full length Battens (4)

Insignia

Country Code

Sail Numbers

Trim Stripes (3)

Cunningham

Integral Foot Shelf (loose footed-strap or clew slug)

Roll Bag

 

 

Furling Jib with Battens 3DL 680 (70/30 Aramid/Carbon) 12,600 Dpi 105%

Performance Film

UV Leech and Foot (PSA Dacron White)

Vertical Battens (3)

Trim Stripes (3)

Stanchion Patches

Tell Tale Window (1)

 

 

 

 

 

UK Sails Houston

 

MatriX Mainsail Technora Carbon with one reef and 1+3 batten configuration

MatriX Jib 105% Taffeta Mylar/carbon with UV protection

 

 

 

 

 

Doyle

 

Class Race Mainsail D4 Twaron/Carbon 15, Std Film/Film

Includes: 3 Standard Battens, 1 Full Batten, 1 Reef, Shape Stripes, Numbers,

Headboard, Cunningham, Maximum Girth, Bag

 

Class Jib 100% D4 Twaron 15, Std Film/Film

Includes: Shape Stripes, Vertical Battens, Standard Turtle

Now get in touch with Musicman for some real sails and FAST one's too!

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Boat is a one design, so there's no need to go out and measure, all of the dims are on file. PIck the best service loft if price and materials are the same. If you want a real opinion, let us know what each loft is quoting (material, not price)

 

Here are the details of the quotes. I'm also adding info for a Doyle D4 quote I received..

 

 

 

Quantum Sails Charleston

 

Quantum Fusion M Mainsail:

 

Construction: Designed using Quantum's iQ suite of computational tools.

One piece membrane construction utilizing 13000 dpi 100% Black Aramid

yarns in an integrated network of straight X Yellow Aramid fibers

sandwiched between polyester films. Assembled using aerospace quality

lamination techniques and thermo-set adhesives, with integrated corner

and batten pocket reinforcements.

 

Includes: Spreader patches, high modulus leech and foot cords with cleats

and purchase systems as necessary, telltales, draft stripes, sail numbers,

cunningham, sail ties, drawstring sailbag, 2 Full, 3 Mid Batten Pockets,

RBS Epoxy 15mm Battens, Reefs (1)

 

 

Quantum Fusion M Jib

 

Construction: Designed using Quantum's iQ suite of computational tools.

One piece membrane construction utilizing 13000 dpi 100% Black Aramid

yarns in an integrated network of straight X Yellow Aramid fibers

sandwiched between polyester films. Assembled using aerospace quality

lamination techniques and thermo-set adhesives, with integrated corner

and batten pocket reinforcements.

Includes: Spreader patches, high modulus leech and foot cords with cleats

and purchase systems as necessary, telltales, draft stripes, sail numbers,

drawstring sail bag., Vertical 3 Battens Batten Pockets, RBS Epoxy 15mm

Battens

 

 

 

 

North Sails New Orleans

 

The Main is a 3DL 680 (70/30 Aramid/Carbon) 12,600 Dpi Four Full Battens

Performance Film

Standard Reef (1)

Full length Battens (4)

Insignia

Country Code

Sail Numbers

Trim Stripes (3)

Cunningham

Integral Foot Shelf (loose footed-strap or clew slug)

Roll Bag

 

 

Furling Jib with Battens 3DL 680 (70/30 Aramid/Carbon) 12,600 Dpi 105%

Performance Film

UV Leech and Foot (PSA Dacron White)

Vertical Battens (3)

Trim Stripes (3)

Stanchion Patches

Tell Tale Window (1)

 

 

 

 

 

UK Sails Houston

 

MatriX Mainsail Technora Carbon with one reef and 1+3 batten configuration

MatriX Jib 105% Taffeta Mylar/carbon with UV protection

 

 

 

 

 

Doyle

 

Class Race Mainsail D4 Twaron/Carbon 15, Std Film/Film

Includes: 3 Standard Battens, 1 Full Batten, 1 Reef, Shape Stripes, Numbers,

Headboard, Cunningham, Maximum Girth, Bag

 

Class Jib 100% D4 Twaron 15, Std Film/Film

Includes: Shape Stripes, Vertical Battens, Standard Turtle

Now get in touch with Musicman for some real sails and FAST one's too!

 

Thank you for the vote of confidence!

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Lets be realistic here. In four years time any sails you buy are going to be dead. 24 Wednesday nights and 6 regattas is a lot for a set of one design sails.

 

Buy cheap and long lasting for now.

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Gpl is also probably 25% heavier than a string sail...

 

That is a pure myth and not true at all. We weigh all our sails for comparison and not only are they very close in weight they come out lighter on a boat the size of a J-100

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Boat is a one design, so there's no need to go out and measure, all of the dims are on file. PIck the best service loft if price and materials are the same. If you want a real opinion, let us know what each loft is quoting (material, not price)

 

Here are the details of the quotes. I'm also adding info for a Doyle D4 quote I received..

 

 

 

Quantum Sails Charleston

 

Quantum Fusion M Mainsail:

 

Construction: Designed using Quantum's iQ suite of computational tools.

One piece membrane construction utilizing 13000 dpi 100% Black Aramid

yarns in an integrated network of straight X Yellow Aramid fibers

sandwiched between polyester films. Assembled using aerospace quality

lamination techniques and thermo-set adhesives, with integrated corner

and batten pocket reinforcements.

 

Includes: Spreader patches, high modulus leech and foot cords with cleats

and purchase systems as necessary, telltales, draft stripes, sail numbers,

cunningham, sail ties, drawstring sailbag, 2 Full, 3 Mid Batten Pockets,

RBS Epoxy 15mm Battens, Reefs (1)

 

 

Quantum Fusion M Jib

 

Construction: Designed using Quantum's iQ suite of computational tools.

One piece membrane construction utilizing 13000 dpi 100% Black Aramid

yarns in an integrated network of straight X Yellow Aramid fibers

sandwiched between polyester films. Assembled using aerospace quality

lamination techniques and thermo-set adhesives, with integrated corner

and batten pocket reinforcements.

Includes: Spreader patches, high modulus leech and foot cords with cleats

and purchase systems as necessary, telltales, draft stripes, sail numbers,

drawstring sail bag., Vertical 3 Battens Batten Pockets, RBS Epoxy 15mm

Battens

 

 

 

 

North Sails New Orleans

 

The Main is a 3DL 680 (70/30 Aramid/Carbon) 12,600 Dpi Four Full Battens

Performance Film

Standard Reef (1)

Full length Battens (4)

Insignia

Country Code

Sail Numbers

Trim Stripes (3)

Cunningham

Integral Foot Shelf (loose footed-strap or clew slug)

Roll Bag

 

 

Furling Jib with Battens 3DL 680 (70/30 Aramid/Carbon) 12,600 Dpi 105%

Performance Film

UV Leech and Foot (PSA Dacron White)

Vertical Battens (3)

Trim Stripes (3)

Stanchion Patches

Tell Tale Window (1)

 

 

 

 

 

UK Sails Houston

 

MatriX Mainsail Technora Carbon with one reef and 1+3 batten configuration

MatriX Jib 105% Taffeta Mylar/carbon with UV protection

 

 

 

 

 

Doyle

 

Class Race Mainsail D4 Twaron/Carbon 15, Std Film/Film

Includes: 3 Standard Battens, 1 Full Batten, 1 Reef, Shape Stripes, Numbers,

Headboard, Cunningham, Maximum Girth, Bag

 

Class Jib 100% D4 Twaron 15, Std Film/Film

Includes: Shape Stripes, Vertical Battens, Standard Turtle

 

You need to compare apples to apples, they all have different batten configs, and 2 of them do not have UV covers.

 

As far as longevity goes, the D4 and Fusion will last the longest. You are unlikely to meet your longevity goals with the 3DL's, and I have seen inconsistent life from the Matrix.

 

A GPL sail will last longer than all of these, but will be heavier, and in my experience not hold it's shape as long.

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Gpl is also probably 25% heavier than a string sail...

 

That is a pure myth and not true at all. We weigh all our sails for comparison and not only are they very close in weight they come out lighter on a boat the size of a J-100

 

I do not want to get in a pissing match with you, but I have a very hard time believing that...

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Thanks for all of the responses. Lot's of good stuff to think about. Sounds like most everyone agrees that 3DL is not going to give me the longevity that I am looking for.

 

I know the quotes are not apples to apples. They are just what that particular loft proposed given how I was planning to use the boat. And to be completely honest to North, they originally quoted Radian sails to me. I asked them to quote 3DL.

 

With the help from all of you now I can better sift through the BS and what really works best for me.

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3DL with taffeta for your main. 3DL headsails. The little extra weight in taffeta for your sized boat is well worth the trade-off in longevity. If all you are doing is club racing, put together a replacement schedule for your sails, as they will wear out at different rates. Talk to your sailmaker about this. This way you are not waiting 4 years for a new jib when you need one every 2-3, and you're not replacing your main in 3 when it could last you 5-6.

 

Best advice yet...

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Thanks for all of the responses. Lot's of good stuff to think about. Sounds like most everyone agrees that 3DL is not going to give me the longevity that I am looking for.

 

I know the quotes are not apples to apples. They are just what that particular loft proposed given how I was planning to use the boat. And to be completely honest to North, they originally quoted Radian sails to me. I asked them to quote 3DL.

 

With the help from all of you now I can better sift through the BS and what really works best for me.

 

In fact, within North, 3dl is viewed as obsolete. 3di is their racing sail tech now. and 3di will probably out-last all the string alternatives you mention above - but for $$$.

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If the fall regatta is any indication, racing on a an inland lake against a couple S2 7.9, J/22, Impulse 21, Northstar 500 (S&S IOR 1/4 ton?) you could probably get away with a Dacron main like the rest of the fleet.

 

When was the last time anyone had a dacron sail fall apart in their hands...anyone? Radian is a nice cloth (see J70s)

 

If you want some thing a bit higher performance, I'd take a hard look at 3DL w/ performance films, or even performance films and taffeta for a super duty lake sail.

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For th Q sail, black is not the same as carbon, and black aramid costs more than gold. I like my Q fusion Ms a bunch and they have held up very well after 3 years of senseless flogging by me.

 

Technora carbon seems like and odd mix.... Typically see twaron/carbon.

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We have a 3 year old Radian main on our Olson 25 that we use for club racing, and it is holding it's shape quite nicely. If all you are looking for is performance and longevity, 3di is the only way to go, but you will pay for the technology. if you are looking for value at the club level, don't knock the North sailmaker for quoting Radian. He is being honest; not just trying to sell you a sail. I am a North guy through and through, so my opinion is biased. A combination of Radian main and 3dl/taffeta headsails will honestly give you all the performance you need to win in your fleet. The rest is up to you and the ability of your crew.

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i will start by stating that i am the representative for UK-Halsey Sails here in the philippines. that said, i am also a boat owner. i currently have Tape Drive sails i bought for my J-35 in 2007. the main is still in good shape. the AP#1 is now starting to show wear and tear in the membrance just above the tack patch. however, in both sails, i have not seen any Tape failure or movement.

 

i keep both sails with the boat. the main on the boom under a boom cover and the genoa down below. during the monsoon season, i store the main down below. i have done this on purpose to see just what the longevity of these sails are like with minimal maintainance. and i am actually quite surprised that they have lasted this long. yea big sale pitch. but seriously. something to consider.

 

and no i will not sell you any sails. i only deal with clients in my territory.

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Question is whether you want to win or have a sexy boat. If you want to win in that fleet, really smart sailing and dacron sails should easily fill the bill. If you want to win and have the boat be a chick magnet and the funkiest looking boat on the lake by all means, spend the extra $$$. Just remember that if you go fast and funky on the sails you'll have one less excuse for being beaten by a Northstar 500.

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Now, about GPL... Somewhat conflicting opinions below. GPL sails seem to be quoted higher than Kevlar cloth (ODL, Flex Black - both made by DP, like GPL). If you had experience with them, how much more would YOU pay for GPL longevity?

 

I get the point about carbon's low stretch making mylar last longer, but there are other things that kill it - UV, flogging, spreaders...

 

You need Carbon GPL it will hold its shape longer and you can abuse it more.

 

Gpl is also probably 25% heavier than a string sail...

 

You might be very surprised. Having weighed many GPL sails to compare with membranes you'll find that in a boat this size the weight will be very close & in fact in many cases a well built GPL sail may be lighter.

 

Honestly if you are expecting the sail to be in one peice after 5 years you cant go wrong with the GPL cloth.

 

*snip*

As far as longevity goes, the D4 and Fusion will last the longest. You are unlikely to meet your longevity goals with the 3DL's, and I have seen inconsistent life from the Matrix.

 

A GPL sail will last longer than all of these, but will be heavier, and in my experience not hold it's shape as long.

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it is too early in the morning and alzhimer's has set in. so exucess me for not remembering exactly, but UK-Hasley has this Tape / Membrane combination that makes the sail Black. then take the Grey Tafetta and put it on both sides and you will have a sail that looks like 3DI, but will last you one hell of a lot longer than any of the suggested exotics.

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See which sailmaker will come help you get your rig and crew tuned up for the new sails and go with that one.

 

Tuning your rig, AND crew? Hang on. Making sure a customers rig is tuned correctly for their sails is one thing. Training crew is NOT a sail makers job no matter how many sails they buy. Maybe giving pointers on different settings for the sails, but lets face it, if your trimmers don't know how to change modes on sails that's probably not the problem that's holding you back from winning.

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I picked up carbon tri radial laminate construction. no battens in 100 % jib 4batten main sail very light sails my original Dacron main sail was 42 lbs and new carbon was 22 lbs. they are great made here in ct by a local sailmaker.

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Now, about GPL... Somewhat conflicting opinions below. GPL sails seem to be quoted higher than Kevlar cloth (ODL, Flex Black - both made by DP, like GPL). If you had experience with them, how much more would YOU pay for GPL longevity?

 

I get the point about carbon's low stretch making mylar last longer, but there are other things that kill it - UV, flogging, spreaders...

 

You need Carbon GPL it will hold its shape longer and you can abuse it more.

 

Gpl is also probably 25% heavier than a string sail...

 

You might be very surprised. Having weighed many GPL sails to compare with membranes you'll find that in a boat this size the weight will be very close & in fact in many cases a well built GPL sail may be lighter.

 

 

*snip*

As far as longevity goes, the D4 and Fusion will last the longest. You are unlikely to meet your longevity goals with the 3DL's, and I have seen inconsistent life from the Matrix.

 

A GPL sail will last longer than all of these, but will be heavier, and in my experience not hold it's shape as long.

Gpl has greater longevity because the large carbon bundles are non-resinated, meaning they dont break when folded. I would expect them to be more expensive because of the material waste associated with the tri-radial construction. I would expect a string sail to hold decent shape for ~2 years and the GPL ~3 years. We had a set of GPL's for a tripp33 that lasted well over 5 years.

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Mine wher great this was the first season. They where extremely reasonably priced probably cheaper than what your getting quoted. gve the loft a call Z sails in Stamford Ct.

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I picked up carbon tri radial laminate construction. no battens in 100 % jib 4batten main sail very light sails my original Dacron main sail was 42 lbs and new carbon was 22 lbs. they are great made here in ct by a local sailmaker.

 

I would be disappointed in a jib with no battens that is 100%.

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Well it's my understanding that the purpose of the battens would be to have a fuller leech. However my original Dacron sail had a hallow leech but it had battens. It also had enough reinforcement for batten pockets that the pockets were like battens. the 100% jib on the j100 doesn't really need them the sail is tiny.

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Well it's my understanding that the purpose of the battens would be to have a fuller leech. However my original Dacron sail had a hallow leech but it had battens. It also had enough reinforcement for batten pockets that the pockets were like battens. the 100% jib on the j100 doesn't really need them the sail is tiny.

It has little to do with the size of the sail, and more to do with the leech profile. A performance boat such as yours should have battens. Z provides a good price for their sails. My experience is that you get what you pay for, both in build/finish and material spec. They do offer personal service if you live near stamford though.

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Well it's my understanding that the purpose of the battens would be to have a fuller leech. However my original Dacron sail had a hallow leech but it had battens. It also had enough reinforcement for batten pockets that the pockets were like battens. the 100% jib on the j100 doesn't really need them the sail is tiny.

 

It is a lot cheaper to not make batten pockets so they save some money in construction.

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