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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  

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farleydoodle

Genoa only v. Main only

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I am not only a newbie, but a newbie sail boat owner. After years of power boating, but with lots of buoy racing and bare-boat charter experience with experienced sailors, I bought a Beneteau 423. It's equipped with a non-furler main, 140% genoa, and a deep fin (6'11") keel. Yesterday I was crossing Puget Sound in 20-25 knot winds. On a whim, rather than hoisting and reefing the main, I elected to sail on a close reach with the genoa only. It worked pretty well, with speeds over 7 knots, not much weather helm, and a relatively level ride. I would have played around with different sail configurations, but my novice-sailor wife was my only crew, and didn't want to scare the crap out of her.

Any thoughts on genoa only, main only, or reefed main and reefed genoa, and when each configuration works best?

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How long have you been lurking here. You can not just come with a question ya know.

 

We have this liking for these things call Tits, now would be a good time to post some.

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Our helm gets heavy when we sail upwind under main only in the kind of conditions where you'd want to do it. We sail downwind under genoa alone when we're too lazy to use the chute, which is often. We have outboard leads rigged and a pair of light sheets to use with them,

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I am not only a newbie, but a newbie sail boat owner. After years of power boating, but with lots of buoy racing and bare-boat charter experience with experienced sailors, I bought a Beneteau 423. It's equipped with a non-furler main, 140% genoa, and a deep fin (6'11") keel. Yesterday I was crossing Puget Sound in 20-25 knot winds. On a whim, rather than hoisting and reefing the main, I elected to sail on a close reach with the genoa only. It worked pretty well, with speeds over 7 knots, not much weather helm, and a relatively level ride. I would have played around with different sail configurations, but my novice-sailor wife was my only crew, and didn't want to scare the crap out of her.

Any thoughts on genoa only, main only, or reefed main and reefed genoa, and when each configuration works best?

Sounds like a pretty comfortable way sailing without a lot of effort. Nothing wrong with that. When I cruise, often I will just set one sail. Usualyy I put a jib up if I am sailing downwind or reaching. My boat likes the main if I am sailing up wind, but it really does need quite a bit of breeze to be efficient.

 

The absolute best, most balanced would probably be with a reefed main and genoa. It is a lot more work, but would be worth it if you are sailing a longer distance.

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downsides:

 

May not be able to point well or tack reliably enough depending on the boat's balance and conditions (doesn't sound like the case)

May not offer enough support to the mast if the rig is a skinny noodle (doesn't sound like the case)

 

main thing is to not get the boat into a situation where close-quarters manuvers are required, (because after a tack in this configuration the boat may need to 'foot way off' to gather speed for a few boatlenghts before tracking well) - which short-handing and criusing you would avoid anyway

 

depending on the boat this can either work just fine for be a real handful - sounds like you have the former, so fill yer boots and go sailing.

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Bob will make fun of you if you do it, but I have been known to sail just under genoa when out by myself... NTTAWWT

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My Morgan 27 with big masthead foretriangle and ribbon main did really well under genoa only, especially when the wind got up. On the other hand, I've sailed fractionally rigged boats without headsails in the same conditions. I think the answer is, it depends, but the trends I talk about here are a good place to start. What you are doing sounds right though, if the boat is working well and the helm isn't too loaded up then you are doing the right thing. Sail condition can have a lot to do with it too, my Morgan had an embarrassingly old main with a leach that acted as a brake most of the time.

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Make sure if you are sailing under foresail alone to harden the mainsheet against the topping lift...some masts will begin to pump if you don't.

 

My understanding is several CS27's broke masts that way.

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I've always preferred to hoist the main first and the main is the last sail furled. If I'm just laz'n along then the main does fine. If the wind starts cranking and I'm laz'n along, still prefer the main.If there's to much weather helm under main alone when the wind is cranking, then ease the main sheet to give some twist, still to much weather helm them drop the traveler to the quarter. I've always felt it was easier on the rig when sailing with one sail hoisted to use the main. The other benefit as stated above by other sailors, is the maneuverability and the ability to sail close to the wind in tight quarters.

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Make sure if you are sailing under foresail alone to harden the mainsheet against the topping lift...some masts will begin to pump if you don't.

 

My understanding is several CS27's broke masts that way.

That wasn't a problem on my Morgan 27. She used the same extrusion as the Morgan 34. Boomer probably could have used it to set pilings.

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I am not only a newbie, but a newbie sail boat owner. After years of power boating, but with lots of buoy racing and bare-boat charter experience with experienced sailors, I bought a Beneteau 423. It's equipped with a non-furler main, 140% genoa, and a deep fin (6'11") keel. Yesterday I was crossing Puget Sound in 20-25 knot winds. On a whim, rather than hoisting and reefing the main, I elected to sail on a close reach with the genoa only. It worked pretty well, with speeds over 7 knots, not much weather helm, and a relatively level ride. I would have played around with different sail configurations, but my novice-sailor wife was my only crew, and didn't want to scare the crap out of her.

Any thoughts on genoa only, main only, or reefed main and reefed genoa, and when each configuration works best?

 

If this is your sail plan I can see why the main might not make that much difference on a windy day like we had yesterday. Where you had the sheet lead (draft in the genoa) would have affected your helm some. I think weather helm would come from having the main not going without it, right?

 

http://www.murrayyachtsales.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/423-Sailplan.jpg

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There is no right answer. It depends on how much sail, how much wind, point of sail, your keel / underbody / center of lateral resistance and the overall sail plan.

 

Normally jib only will mean a lee helm and an inability to point, but the big genoa probably put some area aft the CLR which helped balance the helm and maybe you weren't trying to point too high.

 

But there are no rules, except get home safely, so if it worked for you, enjoy!

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I like to sail with just the main in strong winds.The trick is to put lot's of power in it by easing the outhaul and not sheeting in past the lifelines.

Works for me,and tacking is a breeze.

 

Phil

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That wasn't a problem on my Morgan 27. She used the same extrusion as the Morgan 34. Boomer probably could have used it to set pilings.

 

If you ever saw a CS27 the last thing you would ever think is "lightly rigged"...they were rigged tougher than many 35'ers.

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My current boat (Sea Sprite 30) is fractional rigged and will sail well under either main or jib alone. Which one I pick depends on the conditions and where I am going - main only if it's really blowing or I have to tack frequently, jib only if I'm feeling lazy/tired and just want to cruise up the bay when it isn't busy. With enough breeze she will point quite high with the jib alone but tacking is a pain, particularly singlehanded, would be suicidal in a crowded area. My jib is a 110. The spreaders are in line and there are no runners - so far no problems with the mast pumping but the headstay does sag more than I would like. Not sure why the rig was designed that way, I've had a few people ask if the boat was re-rigged but that's how they all came from the factory.

 

My previous boat (Cape Cod Marlin 23) was so poorly balanced that she would not sail upwind under just the main! Downwind fine, and upwind fine with just the jib, but no way with just the main. That boat had some serious quirks.

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I raise the main as soon as I'm able. Anything but dead downwind my boat sails much better with at least a scrap of jib. Downwind the jib gets blanketed by the main, and the boom with vang makes the main more effective than jib only.

 

In light air I fly the asymm, just a little main if at deep angles. Like this.

 

_MG_6366.jpg

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Like Boomer, the first sail up for me is the main and particularly on your 423 where you have a nicely balanced sail plan.

If you only use one sail, on all points of sail, the main is more easily handled, can be tacked with little effort, and easily shaped for the conditions. It's safer to maneuver with in close quarters and you can go head to wind to kill speed if you had to with a lot less fuss that a genoa thrashing against the rig. If you have weather helm, ease the main or twist it by easing the vang as needed to depower the top, and you can always reef it if you need less power.

 

Edit: these comments apply to sailing short/single handed if I wasn't in any hurry to get anywhere.

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Farliedoodle, you are a lucky man- fifteen reasonable replies and one call for tits. Don't want you to feel unwelcomed, if you have observed this bar for a while you will understand. Your thanks for all the advice, all of it from experience, should include tits.

 

You are welcome.

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Thanks for all the input. In return, due to popular demand, here are some tits. tits.jpg&w=379&h=300&ei=ZGeeUPi-KomPiAKr6YCgBw&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=4&vpy=149&dur=86&hovh=200&hovw=252&tx=125&ty=101&sig=115949771168779068967&page=1&tbnh=140&tbnw=178&start=0&ndsp=15&ved=1t:429,r:0,s:0,i:75

And for those of you who prefer boobies, boobies-ifnotfunny.jpg&w=750&h=600&ei=w2eeUOPBHbGxigLshIGYDg&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=500&vpy=4&dur=111&hovh=201&hovw=251&tx=160&ty=41&sig=115949771168779068967&page=1&tbnh=136&tbnw=175&start=0&ndsp=18&ved=1t:429,r:3,s:0,i:84

 

Fail.

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Well, in gratitude for all of your comments, I tried to post some pictures of tits and boobies, but being the newbie that I am, I couldn't figure out how to do it.

 

My apologies. I'll do better next time!

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Look slightly to the left under the smiley, left click on the image link,a box will appear,then add the image url, click on OK and your done.

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My boat sails pretty well under jib alone, because it is a good roller furling sail I can be sailing in just a few mins. This is good if I am down to check the boat or do a project and the weather is better than expected. Even if I only have 45 mins or so I can go sailing and enjoy some quality time on the water.

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Well, in gratitude for all of your comments, I tried to post some pictures of tits and boobies, but being the newbie that I am, I couldn't figure out how to do it.

 

My apologies. I'll do better next time!

 

Ignorance is no excuse, please post boobs ASAP!

 

FWIW: we normally use the main if we are only flying one sail. MUCH easier to short tack singlehanded.

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I am in the 'jib only' crowd if I had to pick one.. you simply cannot go upwind with the mainsail only.

 

Some breasts would be nice, newbie! There is a big-ass "Attach files" link with a paper clip icon. :rolleyes:

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I am in the 'jib only' crowd if I had to pick one.. you simply cannot go upwind with the mainsail only.

 

Some breasts would be nice, newbie! There is a big-ass "Attach files" link with a paper clip icon. :rolleyes:

 

That's news to me....

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I am in the 'jib only' crowd if I had to pick one.. you simply cannot go upwind with the mainsail only.

 

Some breasts would be nice, newbie! There is a big-ass "Attach files" link with a paper clip icon. :rolleyes:

 

That's news to me....

 

News to me, too. I'll sail main only very seldom, though; I would rather reef the main and either change down or partially furl the foresail for upwind work, the boat points higher and balances better. Off the wind, you can make very good time under genny only. Our boat sails that way very well, almost neutral helm with the full 135.

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I'm a two sail person as well...but those rare occasions when it's single sail time...as always the main goes up first, and the last down.

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The right answer is whatever works best on a specific boat design, where's it's sailed, (shoreline, inlets, anchorages etc...to navigate), crew available, size of rig, and how the helmsman prefers to sail. For the 423, with a headsail furler and lazyjacks on the main, there's no reason not to use two sails short handed and balance the sail plan for the prevailing wind conditions. If it's not setup for short handed sail handling, then long term the OP would get more out of the boat it it were.

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The right answer is whatever works best on a specific boat design, where's it's sailed, (shoreline, inlets, anchorages etc...to navigate), crew available, size of rig, and how the helmsman prefers to sail. For the 423, with a headsail furler and lazyjacks on the main, there's no reason not to use two sails short handed and balance the sail plan for the prevailing wind conditions. If it's not setup for short handed sail handling, then long term the OP would get more out of the boat it it were.

 

I agree with this. When I see a boat sailing under genoa only I think, "lazy." Of course, in a world where boats are motoring under bare poles everywhere this is an improvement.

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Quite often when the wind is light and from the right direction, but still want to maintain some speed.

 

The main stays up and the iron lung is fired up, and just turning enough to jog along...the motion is a bit more comfortable as well.

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Interesting discussion.

I have a fractional rig and swept back spreaders so I can't let the main out too far before it hits the rigging. When the wind comes down the lake, like it does a lot this time of year due to fronts, I don't go out. I'm usually single handed and, while I can do a good gybe single handed, I don't want to do it over and over again while going down the length of this narrow lake after having had to tack the entire length too.

After this discussion, I'm wondering how it'd be under jib alone. I've sailed her with the main alone but never the jib alone. It'd be interesting to try.

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I'm a two sail person as well...but those rare occasions when it's single sail time...as always the main goes up first, and the last down.

 

My old 30 Sq Mtr sailed very well to weather under main alone, especially in a blow.

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Bet she went to weather like a witch in a blow....like a beautiful witch!

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Bet she went to weather like a witch in a blow....like a beautiful witch!

 

She did, my old Swede 55 also was very well mannered under main alone in a blow. I think those Skerry Cruiser designs were intended to sail well under main alone when tacking through the Skerry Islands in a blow.

 

The Sliver design is basically an updated Skerry Cruiser with a very large dose of Perry magic thrown into the recipe.

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The right answer is whatever works best on a specific boat design, where's it's sailed, (shoreline, inlets, anchorages etc...to navigate), crew available, size of rig, and how the helmsman prefers to sail. For the 423, with a headsail furler and lazyjacks on the main, there's no reason not to use two sails short handed and balance the sail plan for the prevailing wind conditions. If it's not setup for short handed sail handling, then long term the OP would get more out of the boat it it were.

Right, my US 30 had such a small main that even though it was always up first and down last it wasn't much good upwind by itself. My Dash 34 on the otherhand is quite good under main alone. Much different rig.

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I am in the 'jib only' crowd if I had to pick one.. you simply cannot go upwind with the mainsail only.

 

Some breasts would be nice, newbie! There is a big-ass "Attach files" link with a paper clip icon. :rolleyes:

 

That's news to me....

 

News to me, too. I'll sail main only very seldom, though; I would rather reef the main and either change down or partially furl the foresail for upwind work, the boat points higher and balances better. Off the wind, you can make very good time under genny only. Our boat sails that way very well, almost neutral helm with the full 135.

 

 

Oh shit, that sailing around on just the main before the start will have to stop, sailing UPwind and back down to the start just wont work anymore :huh:

 

By the way my long keeled old boat sails like shit on just the main, just headsail O.K. if there is enough wind.

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There's considerable difference between laz'n along under a single sail and sailing efficiently with speed under full sail.

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I have raced with a 155% up only on the Ranger 28 in 20-25kts (2-1/2 up), boat gets to hull speed quickly and as long as you (are reaching) and have the backstay ON, it seemed to do well for us in flat water.

 

Note. I am led to believe that production boats are designed to have both main and foresail up in order for the boats to sail well balanced without the rig pumping. ie. the main is the real backstay... YMMV.

 

Sail Safe!

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I am not only a newbie, but a newbie sail boat owner. After years of power boating, but with lots of buoy racing and bare-boat charter experience with experienced sailors, I bought a Beneteau 423. It's equipped with a non-furler main, 140% genoa, and a deep fin (6'11") keel. Yesterday I was crossing Puget Sound in 20-25 knot winds. On a whim, rather than hoisting and reefing the main, I elected to sail on a close reach with the genoa only. It worked pretty well, with speeds over 7 knots, not much weather helm, and a relatively level ride. I would have played around with different sail configurations, but my novice-sailor wife was my only crew, and didn't want to scare the crap out of her.

Any thoughts on genoa only, main only, or reefed main and reefed genoa, and when each configuration works best?

 

The answer is it varies by boat and conditions and how well you know your boat. I would expect a boat with a 140 genoa to be able to do what your boat did. In that much breeze the "conventional" thing to do would be to put in a main reef and reefed or full genoa. If the genoa was reefed and the cars moved forward as they should be the CoE prolly would be about the same as what you had. With the genoa only in that much breeze you're probably just giving away the last few degrees of pointing and some boat speed. With a r/f jib your main is the "hard" sail to use - although with self tailing winches and main slides and an on boom sail bag like you probably have the main isn't too hard either. OTOH a main is easier to tack and gybe if you need to maneuver a lot. Of course you should spend time experimenting with different sailplans in different conditions so you know how to handle them and which works best.

 

Assuming the boat has a wheel you might not feel much helm (I'm a tiller guy) so you should track your helm by how many spokes of weather (or lee helm) you have

 

Of course you should also get the woman working on the boat too so she doesn't get to be one of these bow fluff types who's afraid to do anything on deck. if there's another owner of s similar boat in your area have him stop by and give you some tips.

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We're lazy on occasion and sail with just the roller furling jib, the boat is balanced and will easily track with just a bungee on the wheel. I don't see anything wrong with sailing with whatever sails you want to sail with. We're not trying to win a race.

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When I see a boat sailing under genoa only I think, "lazy."

 

You say this like it's a bad thing...

 

When I'm goofing around, I put up whatever sails I feel like putting up. If I've got a cockpit full of non-sailors I might just have the genoa or the main up, depending on conditions, point of sail, and what's going to cause the least commotion. We're not always in a hurry.

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When I see a boat sailing under genoa only I think, "lazy."

 

You say this like it's a bad thing...

 

When I'm goofing around, I put up whatever sails I feel like putting up. If I've got a cockpit full of non-sailors I might just have the genoa or the main up, depending on conditions, point of sail, and what's going to cause the least commotion. We're not always in a hurry.

 

Valis, you should talk to WHL and Mung about my being in a hurry. "We were racing? Oh, I obviously lost!"

 

We were rolling along just fine at 5 or 6 knots to Cuttyhunk with CdT catching up fast. I thought, "spinnaker?" I looked at my father-in-law, who was sailing with me. He looked happy. I didn't rock the boat. The spinnaker stayed stowed.

 

Alright, knowing what I know now? We would have flown the big sail.

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When I see a boat sailing under genoa only I think, "lazy."

 

You say this like it's a bad thing...

 

When I'm goofing around, I put up whatever sails I feel like putting up. If I've got a cockpit full of non-sailors I might just have the genoa or the main up, depending on conditions, point of sail, and what's going to cause the least commotion. We're not always in a hurry.

 

Valis, you should talk to WHL and Mung about my being in a hurry. "We were racing? Oh, I obviously lost!"

 

We were rolling along just fine at 5 or 6 knots to Cuttyhunk with CdT catching up fast. I thought, "spinnaker?" I looked at my father-in-law, who was sailing with me. He looked happy. I didn't rock the boat. The spinnaker stayed stowed.

 

Alright, knowing what I know now? We would have flown the big sail.

 

That was funny... Not in a hurry?? We suspected that once you got around Beavertail Point you would hammer down with motor. So up went the asymm chute. We trimmed the life out of that and the main and only just caught you hours later, just in time for moorage honors and bragging rights :lol:

Good times.

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When I see a boat sailing under genoa only I think, "lazy."

 

You say this like it's a bad thing...

 

When I'm goofing around, I put up whatever sails I feel like putting up. If I've got a cockpit full of non-sailors I might just have the genoa or the main up, depending on conditions, point of sail, and what's going to cause the least commotion. We're not always in a hurry.

 

Valis, you should talk to WHL and Mung about my being in a hurry. "We were racing? Oh, I obviously lost!"

 

We were rolling along just fine at 5 or 6 knots to Cuttyhunk with CdT catching up fast. I thought, "spinnaker?" I looked at my father-in-law, who was sailing with me. He looked happy. I didn't rock the boat. The spinnaker stayed stowed.

 

Alright, knowing what I know now? We would have flown the big sail.

 

That was funny... Not in a hurry?? We suspected that once you got around Beavertail Point you would hammer down with motor. So up went the asymm chute. We trimmed the life out of that and the main and only just caught you hours later, just in time for moorage honors and bragging rights :lol:

Good times.

 

I figured you guys were having fun hunting me down. The motor? Not with a fair breeze. Your detour closer to Penikese than necessary meant we weren't completely humiliated. Was nice to follow your stern into the channel and tie up together and share the stories of getting there.

 

Definitely good times.

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This is a lot of purist crap. The original post is that the guy was was in 20-25 with his wife whom he did not want to scare. If he was comfortable with just a jib and he made his destination safely and his wife is happy, then it's all good.

 

Sail and enjoy, this is cruising anarchy, not racing.

 

There are certainly times while cruising when performance is important, but this was not one of them.

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This is a lot of purist crap. The original post is that the guy was was in 20-25 with his wife whom he did not want to scare. If he was comfortable with just a jib and he made his destination safely and his wife is happy, then it's all good.

 

Sail and enjoy, this is cruising anarchy, not racing.

 

There are certainly times while cruising when performance is important, but this was not one of them.

Hey steady on fella.. don't get your knickers twisted with separatist "crap" as you put it. If you read it all, a number of people have said whatever works is fine, in one way or another and have just expressed their preferences.

 

BTW.... a lot of the people in here race too. Lighten up... the racing skills enhance many useful aspects of cruising, rigging, sail trim, navigation and weather routing, and the cruising skills enhance seamanship, anchoring, short handed sailing, provisioning, relaxation, etc... This forum is about sharing information across different disciplines.

 

There are plenty of times when people can have an opinion that may help this person with his balanced sail plan. and this was one of them (as he had requested).

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I think New Morning's got it all right. I think the only person who could give this guy some real input would be a nother Bendytoi 423 owner. There is so much variety in ya'll's sail plans that you can't really give any advice in relation to your boat.

 

Our first boat was frac rigged with a giant main. We sailed all over the place with just the main. Tried that our first season with Soñadora and she just laughed at us. It could be blowing 30kts and we'd be lucky to make 4kts with just the main. She NEEDS that foresail. But it's almost impossible to sail anything other than downwind with JUST headsails.

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B423+sailplan.jpg

 

Hmmm....without ever sailing that, I know exactly what I'd use....both the main and a foresail .

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B423+sailplan.jpg

 

Hmmm....without ever sailing that, I know exactly what I'd use....both the main and a foresail .

The starter of this thread crews for me when we race. I am sure that I will get a ride soon. He just bought the boat a few months ago.

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This has been an interesting discussion. Thanks for all the input. And yes svgreatwhite, I'd love to have you onboard anytime. i still haven't flown the gennaker, and I'd love to have you along to give me a tip or three.

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I think New Morning's got it all right. I think the only person who could give this guy some real input would be a nother Bendytoi 423 owner. There is so much variety in ya'll's sail plans that you can't really give any advice in relation to your boat.

 

Our first boat was frac rigged with a giant main. We sailed all over the place with just the main. Tried that our first season with Soñadora and she just laughed at us. It could be blowing 30kts and we'd be lucky to make 4kts with just the main. She NEEDS that foresail. But it's almost impossible to sail anything other than downwind with JUST headsails.

 

Good point!

 

Some boats are rigged to sails on main others are Genoa driven boats. All yachts are quickly unbalanced if they are sailed on main or Genoa only. In 20-25 knots of wind you can quickly get weather helm, the boat becomes difficult to steer and uncomfortable to be onboard. If you sail the boat on main only or on Genoa only you will quickly set too much sail, as a result you get an unbalanced boat that develops weather helm. This is not comfortable or any fun for anyone onboard. And it is not doing your sailing skills any good.

 

To make your wife more comfortable and improve your own sailing please try to sail the boat on heal and on rudder angel. Set three reefs in the main and set them early. Trim the main so it is comfortable onboard. Agree between you a maximum heal angle. Then set the Genoa I assume you got a furling system. Take the Genoa down to reef three or something. Even with 15-20 knots of wind start to set a reef or two in the main and adjust the rest of the power by furling the Genoa.

 

If you sail the boat this way you will quickly become a better sailor and both of you will enjoy the trip. Some people think or believe that it is more work to keep both sails up. I disagree – at times it might be more jobs that need doing. All boats are designed to sail with both main and Genoa. Interesting enough you will also quickly see that you make more progress than the “racers out there”. Most of them set their reefs too late, heal over like mad and make no progress.

 

I sail most of the time with my wife only. I do my best to keep less than 20 degree heal and less than 8 degree rudder angel. Rudder angle are most of the time only 2-3 degree. When we are taking it easy – I am just setting a new reef or easing things up when I am healing over more then agreed. Our boat is very fast upwind – and very few boats are faster than us. This principle do work.

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......snip......................you will also quickly see that you make more progress than the “racers out there”. Most of them set their reefs too late, heal over like mad and make no progress.

 

I sail most of the time with my wife only. I do my best to keep less than 20 degree heal and less than 8 degree rudder angel. Rudder angle are most of the time only 2-3 degree. When we are taking it easy – I am just setting a new reef or easing things up when I am healing over more then agreed. Our boat is very fast upwind – and very few boats are faster than us. This principle do work.

 

Holy moly what a daft statement. Most of them keep their boats fully powered up and set sail area for the low side of the average wind speed they are experiencing rather than the gusts 1) because they have the crew to quickly depower the sail plan for the highs and 2) they are doing that thing called racing where you push the envelope and yes it may get ragged on occasion but that's true of any sport where you push hard. Their game is not about a democratic process of heel angle agreements.

 

Other than that, you make a good point about using a balanced sailplan. It also helps to make sure the boat has been rigged for easy short handed sailing and reefing of the main e.g. lazy jacks, dutchman system etc... People might be more inclined (as opposed to heeled !! :D ) to reef rather than avoid using the sail.

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...less than 8 degree rudder angel.

 

Is a rudder angel the same thing as an autopilot?

 

candice-swanepoel-hot-angel-9-550x400.jpg

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......snip......................you will also quickly see that you make more progress than the “racers out there”. Most of them set their reefs too late, heal over like mad and make no progress.

 

I sail most of the time with my wife only. I do my best to keep less than 20 degree heal and less than 8 degree rudder angel. Rudder angle are most of the time only 2-3 degree. When we are taking it easy – I am just setting a new reef or easing things up when I am healing over more then agreed. Our boat is very fast upwind – and very few boats are faster than us. This principle do work.

 

Holy moly what a daft statement. Most of them keep their boats fully powered up and set sail area for the low side of the average wind speed they are experiencing rather than the gusts 1) because they have the crew to quickly depower the sail plan for the highs and 2) they are doing that thing called racing where you push the envelope and yes it may get ragged on occasion but that's true of any sport where you push hard. Their game is not about a democratic process of heel angle agreements.

 

Other than that, you make a good point about using a balanced sailplan. It also helps to make sure the boat has been rigged for easy short handed sailing and reefing of the main e.g. lazy jacks, dutchman system etc... People might be more inclined (as opposed to heeled !! :D ) to reef rather than avoid using the sail.

 

The original poster is not into racing. Therefore let’s keep a cruising mindset. Racing with crew is a different ballgame.

 

...less than 8 degree rudder angel.

 

Is a rudder angel the same thing as an autopilot?

 

candice-swanepoel-hot-angel-9-550x400.jpg

 

That was a good looking angel!

 

Sorry my misspelling. I was talking about rudder angle. A good autopilot will normally show the rudder angle or you got a separate instrument for it.

Angel’s with wings – keep on dreaming boys.

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......snip......................you will also quickly see that you make more progress than the “racers out there”. Most of them set their reefs too late, heal over like mad and make no progress.

 

I sail most of the time with my wife only. I do my best to keep less than 20 degree heal and less than 8 degree rudder angel. Rudder angle are most of the time only 2-3 degree. When we are taking it easy – I am just setting a new reef or easing things up when I am healing over more then agreed. Our boat is very fast upwind – and very few boats are faster than us. This principle do work.

 

Holy moly what a daft statement. Most of them keep their boats fully powered up and set sail area for the low side of the average wind speed they are experiencing rather than the gusts 1) because they have the crew to quickly depower the sail plan for the highs and 2) they are doing that thing called racing where you push the envelope and yes it may get ragged on occasion but that's true of any sport where you push hard. Their game is not about a democratic process of heel angle agreements.

 

Other than that, you make a good point about using a balanced sailplan. It also helps to make sure the boat has been rigged for easy short handed sailing and reefing of the main e.g. lazy jacks, dutchman system etc... People might be more inclined (as opposed to heeled !! :D ) to reef rather than avoid using the sail.

 

The original poster is not into racing. Therefore let’s keep a cruising mindset. Racing with crew is a different ballgame.

 

You suggest keeping it on track with the OP's cruising focus as we all were before you chimed in with a daft comparison about racing? I think you may be in the running for the Pompous Ass award.

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I don't know Hung, I think maybe you should show some respect and listen up to Mogle. He actually sounds to be quite an impressive sailor -- according to his post, he can go faster upwind than all but a few boats by using his special technique of trimming the main for comfort and then partially rolling up his furling genoa to develop power. It's gotta be all about getting the power right.

 

Perhaps this can be determined by the autopilot or other separate instrument that shows rudder angle? I am guessing these advanced electronics have some sort of optimal power readout on them, in addition to the more standard rudder angle indicator. My boat only has a tiller, so I have always had to rely on that as a rough gauge of rudder angle. I suspect I have been getting it wrong. Maybe you have, too?

 

He doesn't specifically say so, but I have to believe that "making more progress than the racers out there" means he is also getting some pretty impressive pointing angles going upwind with that half-rolled headsail. These sound like truly revolutionary techniques in upwind sailing -- certainly nothing I have ever been able to accomplish, or even really heard of before.

 

I am also very much interested in learning more about his ability to induce weather helm in heavy air by sailing with only a jib...

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Oregon.. that was a good one !! I wonder how he gains so much speed with an 8 degree rudder "angel" ? It might be a divine intervention.

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8 degree rudder angle. That would be a totally unblanced yacht in my opinion.

Anyone who would sail around with 8 degrees of rudder is an idiot.

An idiot I tell you!

 

When I see anyone and I mean anyone sailing with only a jib or a main I immediately think "WHANKER".

Or is it "WANKER".

 

I like "WANKER".

 

We can all sail the way we choose and it appears that some of us are wankers.

Boats/sloops are designed to be sailed with main and jib for proper balance and VMG.

If you want to wank along under just your jib or just your main that's just fine.

Wank ho.

But you are wanking and not taking advantage of the energy available.

And taking advantage of the energy avaialble is just plain good seamanship.

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Well I dunno Bob. Maybe they just want to cut down on beer spillage.

 

It's a little unfair for old timers such as yerself who have mastered the art of trimming two sails without spilling a drop to belittle those poor sods who are still learning.

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We often go out Wanking... which I take it what WANKER's do. (Thanks for the new term, Bob.) We tend to wank along with just the Asymmetrical chute up. Obviously, we can't sail upwind nor can we tack while wanking, but my wife likes the "nicely colored sail" and we don't have "beer spillage" problems (thanks Savoir). With the A-sail up wanking on a broad reach can be quite quick, about the same as 100% jib and full main. What's better is that the new topdown furler on the A-sail allows for some really easy sets and douses - no need of a mainsail lee to hid the chute in while taking it down after a hard day's wanking.

 

WANKING - it's not just for fooling around any more - it's a real point of sail!

 

I like the sound of that. I think I'd better be careful how I use it. Oh dear, this just keeps getting worse.... :blink:

 

BV

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I was just having some fun. I don't care how anybody sails ttheir boat so long as they are having fun. But I can't think of single time I have sailed with just one sail up on a sloop.

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We often go out Wanking... which I take it what WANKER's do. (Thanks for the new term, Bob.) We tend to wank along with just the Asymmetrical chute up. Obviously, we can't sail upwind nor can we tack while wanking, but my wife likes the "nicely colored sail" and we don't have "beer spillage" problems (thanks Savoir). With the A-sail up wanking on a broad reach can be quite quick, about the same as 100% jib and full main. What's better is that the new topdown furler on the A-sail allows for some really easy sets and douses - no need of a mainsail lee to hid the chute in while taking it down after a hard day's wanking.

 

 

WANKING - it's not just for fooling around any more - it's a real point of sail!

 

I like the sound of that. I think I'd better be careful how I use it. Oh dear, this just keeps getting worse.... :blink:

 

BV

 

I like that...so we have

 

DDW

Broad Reach

Beam Reach

Close Hauled

Wanking

 

or maybe

 

DDW

Wanking DDW

Broad Reach

Wanking Broad Reach

Beam Reach

Wanking Beam Reach

Close Hauled

 

Used in a sentance, "We poured a couple sundowners and sailed a Wanking Broad Reach across the bay."

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8 degree rudder angle. That would be a totally unblanced yacht in my opinion.

Anyone who would sail around with 8 degrees of rudder is an idiot.

An idiot I tell you!

 

When I see anyone and I mean anyone sailing with only a jib or a main I immediately think "WHANKER".

Or is it "WANKER".

 

I like "WANKER".

 

We can all sail the way we choose and it appears that some of us are wankers.

Boats/sloops are designed to be sailed with main and jib for proper balance and VMG.

If you want to wank along under just your jib or just your main that's just fine.

Wank ho.

But you are wanking and not taking advantage of the energy available.

And taking advantage of the energy avaialble is just plain good seamanship.

 

Hmmmm..... guess that makes me a sometime wanker

 

Which reminds me of the first time I heard the word. I'd just arrived in NZ with a group of about 6 other US citizens. We were on a bus in Christchurch chatting excitedly about this and that in our apparently too loud American voices when a small, old woman narrows her eyes, looks at us and says "What a pack of wankers!" Welcome to New Zealand.

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I am a WANKER.

 

Forgive me for I have WANKED many times.

 

Sometimes out of lazyness when I am cruising only a short distance during the day.

 

Sometimes when it is blowing like the time it was blowing 40knots and I sailed across the Strait of Juan de Fuca downwind with the #3 jib only. Forgive me for I was alone. But I did hit the fastest speed for my boat of 14knots.

 

Sometimes for a hour sail around the bay with a girlfriend who was apprehensive anyway.

 

Yes, I am a WANKER. :D

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Great white:

Thats a very good first step. But I don't get the idea you are serious about changing your wanking behaviour. I get the feeling you actually like wanking.

 

I think had I been on your boat in that 40 knot crossing of the Straits I would have been under jib only also. I don't consider that a true wank. That's more of a tweak wank.

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I wanked from the top to the bottom of Moosehead Lake in a STRONG fall northwester years ago, and I'm not ashamed to admit it.

 

Maybe a bumber sticker is in order-

 

I WANK AND I VOTE

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I wanked from the top to the bottom of Moosehead Lake in a STRONG fall northwester years ago, and I'm not ashamed to admit it.

 

Maybe a bumber sticker is in order-

 

I WANK AND I VOTE

 

Nice. How about one for the other side of the bumper: I'd RATHER BE WANKING.

 

eDIT: Or perhaps FRIENDS DON'T LET FRIENDS WANK.

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This reminds me of a song...sort of

 

"In this corner, we have the Winky Wanky bird. The Winky Wanky bird has his eyelids attached to his genitals. Whenever he winks he wanks, and whenever he wanks he winks."

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Great white:

Thats a very good first step. But I don't get the idea you are serious about changing your wanking behaviour. I get the feeling you actually like wanking.

 

I think had I been on your boat in that 40 knot crossing of the Straits I would have been under jib only also. I don't consider that a true wank. That's more of a tweak wank.

I will undo some of my WANKERNESS this weekend by racing around Vashon Island and using as many sails as we can!

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I didn't read the rest of the thread...I may have even already responded, but, If I had to pick one I stil pick headsail only...always. Just don't overtack the boat when you tack.,,,the lee helm's a bitch.

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I was just having some fun. I don't care how anybody sails ttheir boat so long as they are having fun. But I can't think of single time I have sailed with just one sail up on a sloop.

 

That's as long as it's their boat and not one of Bob's! He might have a hissy fit.

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I just had an interesting talk with a guy this weekend after the Winter Vashon race. He is a guy whom I respect very much for his sailing abilities. he said that when the windspeed go to a certain point rather than reef he would drop the main entirely and sail on the jib. He said he would generally pick up a half a knot or more of boat speed doing this, the wanker.

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Jose:

Compared to what?

 

If that was a fast way to sail we'd see racers all over the world doing it.

But we don't.

What a revelation.

 

Sail anyway you like.

I'll sail my way and try at all times to get the most out of the boat. I'll sail the way I was taught to sail.

 

There's no "right and wrong" here. There is just personal preference. In my world personal preference involves VMG. And if better VMG's were achieved sailing with just main or jib alone then we wouild see racers doing it. We don't. Never.

But if you just want to plow along without exerting yourself then fine, have at it. But don't insult me by saying it's faster.

 

Of course in some extreme conditions you may be better off with just a part of your main or a small jib. But I am referring to what I consider normal sailing conditions, say between 5 and 25 knots.

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I just had an interesting talk with a guy this weekend after the Winter Vashon race. He is a guy whom I respect very much for his sailing abilities. he said that when the windspeed go to a certain point rather than reef he would drop the main entirely and sail on the jib. He said he would generally pick up a half a knot or more of boat speed doing this, the wanker.

A boat that finished just ahead of us was sailing jib only. I just thought that he had a problem with his main. Maybe he was just sailing fast!

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Just an interesting observation Bob. We didn't get into a detailed discussion. He was taking about his old Olsen 30. Maybe it's a peculiarity of that boat. I don't know. He has plenty of pickle dishes though.

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I just had an interesting talk with a guy this weekend after the Winter Vashon race. He is a guy whom I respect very much for his sailing abilities. he said that when the windspeed go to a certain point rather than reef he would drop the main entirely and sail on the jib. He said he would generally pick up a half a knot or more of boat speed doing this, the wanker.

A boat that finished just ahead of us was sailing jib only. I just thought that he had a problem with his main. Maybe he was just sailing fast!

 

I saw that guy. I think his main was torn or something. Congrats on 2nd.

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I just had an interesting talk with a guy this weekend after the Winter Vashon race. He is a guy whom I respect very much for his sailing abilities. he said that when the windspeed go to a certain point rather than reef he would drop the main entirely and sail on the jib. He said he would generally pick up a half a knot or more of boat speed doing this, the wanker.

A boat that finished just ahead of us was sailing jib only. I just thought that he had a problem with his main. Maybe he was just sailing fast!

 

I saw that guy. I think his main was torn or something. Congrats on 2nd.

Thanks! I did not wank! At least two sails all day.

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If you have a masthead rig and reef the main before starting to furl the jib; is that wanking?

 

Or just being a cock tease?

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If you have a masthead rig and reef the main before starting to furl the jib; is that wanking?

 

Or just being a cock tease?

Here's a selection wankers, cock teasers and righteous sailors in the 2008 Round the County, Day 1 Race Start - Blowing solid 30 knots and gusting 35.

Something for everyone :D BTW, the Buchans on Madrona used a storm jib and full main and blew past most of the 40ft boats on the first beat.

post-5483-0-91968100-1354588203_thumb.jpg Clearly wankers but fast ones

post-5483-0-68943000-1354588199_thumb.jpg Cockteasers

post-5483-0-36643400-1354588106_thumb.jpg Righteous !

post-5483-0-67984800-1354588338_thumb.jpg Really Righteous !!

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My windvane, Somchai, can be very finicky when sailing downwind. But behaves brilliantly under genoa alone or with the main triple reefed. It is not the fastest way to sail, but sometimes you have other things to do. Sadly, Somchai hasn't seen much use in the Salish Sea.

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Jimma, which wind vane do you have, and would you recommend it? A friend is hunting for one. BV

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Jimma, which wind vane do you have, and would you recommend it? A friend is hunting for one. BV

 

Monitor, and I confess to no useful experience with any other make. Sometimes Somchai works like a dream, and sometimes behaves like a naughty child, but was a key crew member on a solo crossing from Japan. Slept in 90-minute shifts and rarely awoke to find us going a completely wrong way!

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Thanks, I've heard a lot of good things about Monitor vanes. I'll pass on your comments. BV

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I'll second the recommendation on the monitor. Looks like an oil derrick, and takes some fiddling off a beat, but once set, works like a charm.

 

I can't believe I cruised for so many year's without one.

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Late to the party, but Love the term 'Wanking'....

 

To my thinking, it's a legitimate point of sail under certain circumstances; When reefing isn't enough, you may have to resort to wanking. Or, "in between races, we had the jib down and were just wanking along".

 

From a cruiser's standpoint, it may be a reasonable strategy when you aren't in a hurry; Frankly, San Diego bay isn't big enough sometimes.

 

But mostly, when you see people with only one sail up, they really are wankers.

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depending on how your boat balances sailing with genoa only on the puget sound is not a problem, when going downwind it can be more effective than main only(depending on the boat). keep in mind it is less maneuverable. If you are trying to beat upwind in any kind of real chop, such is you might get in the straits, forget about trying to tack. As long as you have room you can always gybe around. much more of a pain in the ass than just putting the main up. Also while there shouldn't be any strength issues with the rig on the sound, if you are on the ocean, and even the straits(I have seen plenty of rigs come down in the straits) the strength of the rig becomes a major factor in sail combination. if you have running backstays, that alleviates a lot of the issues, if not then put your main up, or be prepared for the POSSIBILITY of putting a new rig in your boat.

 

Just my opinion, but the monitor is an awesome vane gear, however the guy that I dealt with was a piece of shit, and If I ever buy another vane gear I will be looking elsewhere. great product, ruined by a terrible attitude toward the customer. In my experience, given enough practice you can make almost any vane gear drive almost any boat, within reason. keep in mind though, if you want to really power the boat up in breeze, most vane gears won't drive most boats. Sail combination, sea state, and wind, and all the variables included in each category will determine how well a vane will drive. I have many thousands of singlehanded miles, and trust me, with no autopilot, you figure out how to make a vane work.

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Just my opinion, but the monitor is an awesome vane gear, however the guy that I dealt with was a piece of shit, and If I ever buy another vane gear I will be looking elsewhere. great product, ruined by a terrible attitude toward the customer.

 

Who were you working with? My experience with Hans and the several other Scanmar personnel I've dealt with has been quite positive. They helped me fine-tune the installation, and have been easy to deal with regarding repairs and service.

 

I really like the power and range of the servo-pendulum Monitor. It can steer you through a decent range of weather / lee helm. Sure, you want to trim for just about neutral helm, but sometimes the conditions change and things get out of balance. The Monitor stays in control. I've sailed with an auxiliary-rudder windvane (on a friend's boat), and it just couldn't keep the boat under control unless you were really on top of the sail trim. I like not having the boat round-up while I'm figuring out what just happened.

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I've never sailed only on main sail nor I have seen a yacht doing so. Jib-only is fine, especially downwind. In other cases, it seems OK to sail on jib only if you are in short of hands, otherwise... why?

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Greek:

Why?

I think the answer is that most boats balance better under jib alone than they do under main alone where weather helm can be a problem.

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I've never sailed only on main sail nor I have seen a yacht doing so. Jib-only is fine, especially downwind. In other cases, it seems OK to sail on jib only if you are in short of hands, otherwise... why?

 

Man does not sail downwind only...

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Main is go to, mellows out upwind, keeps up with most production boats. Downwind, who needs a job over 1-15? Really like jibing down SJ channell under main alone when it gets frisky.

 

But it amazing how much turbo a blade adds. A bit scary actually. Upwind at least.

 

Need to double SA downwind.

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Man, I miss SA. I see boats out out WANKING all the time, have discussion with many of them and they try and convince me that it is faster etc, but I just don't see it. Easier, maybe, but have the proper sails up is pretty easy to. I have even convinced a few cruisiers to consider a sail change so they are not on their ear when trying to sail to weather with their #2 up in 25 kts.

 

On the whole windvane thing, I have 15-20k on our Hydrovane and love it. Sadly, I have not been on a sister ship with a monitor, so I can't really compare, but the Hydrovane looks more elegant and works great. It does get overwhemed with the wind is real puffy on a reach as it doesn't react quick enough when the apperent goes forward in a puff, but hard ont he wind and off the breeze it it great, and it even flys the kite pretty well, but it does need conditions to be just right for that...

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Buch:

How jio bu jien.

Long time no see.

Where have you been?

 

Glad to hear you are not a wanker.

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SWMBO and I sailed the Swede 55 once with main only in about 40 knots on a run. Stayed in double digits until the boom vang let go, the boom skyed and we fell down to 9 knots. We were towing the dink. SWMBO was cooking breakfast below and I was relaxing in the cockpit, the Swede was very well behaved. I dont think the jib would have contributed much.

 

Damn I love narrow boats.

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