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nicor

The New Scheurer D3 A-Cat!

90 posts in this topic

from https://www.facebook...lter=3&ustart=1

 

Scheurer Design & Eng. and D3 Applied Technologies have signed a long term partnership to couple Scheurer's expertise in composite materials with D3's knowledge in Computationa

l Fluid Dynamics & Boat Design.

 

 

In Spring of 2013 the above collaboration will launch a newly designed A-Class Catamaran called the “Scheurer D3”.

 

Scheurer Design & Eng. is a design and engineering consultancy specializing in composite materials. Their clients enjoy a complete project management solution including design, engineering, prototype and series production. Clients to date have been Formula One teams, OEM Automotive, Marine, Medical and Lifestyle Industry Sectors. Dominik Scheurer, CEO of Scheurer Design & Eng. and former member of both Sauber and Toyota Formula 1 teams will head the structural design and construction of the Scheurer D3.

 

D3 Applied Technologies delivers consultancy and engineering services in the field of aero/hydrodynamics. With expertise acquired over a number of years involved in America's Cup and winning Volvo Ocean Race design teams leading to the development of state-of-the-art design technology which improves final product performance. Gonzalo Redondo, founder and director of D3, former member of the Artemis Racing Design Team for the AC34, will be in charge of the boat design and CFD testing.

 

Through this agreement, Scheurer & D3 aim to carry out a scientific, thorough and well founded design process, before now unseen in the A Class catamaran fleet. As an outcome, we expect to provide the most competitive A Cat available in 2013.

 

What do you think?

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Lots of claims but let's see the product. You cannot blame them, but this is a fair bit of hype. For instance, I am sure that Martin Fischer would disagree with comments about this level of rigour in the design process being something new to A's. In addition, there is a new A being built in Oz that was developed using very sophisticated CFD analysis. And the idea that a process can guarantee a better boat is pretty far fetched. For instance, Martin Fischer's Mayfly didn't live up to the hype we saw before it was raced, showing that even the best cannot guarantee to get it right first time.

 

There's a well known saying that I think is appropriate here "When the flag drops, the bullshit stops". I look forward to seeing the boat on the race track.

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Wow! That boat is so fast it is ionizing the water in the bow wave and wake creating those colors just like you see in the CFD results. We used to see that sort of stuff sailing with John Shuttleworth in Tortola after the Bumba Shack full moon parties back in the day. A nice cuppa Magic Mushroom Tea and you don't need no stinking CFD, FEA, or towing tanks either!

;)

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SominN true about CFD not being the thing that makes a boat go-fast, but the Scheurer's have always been fast and showing great results recently contrasting to The Fischerman's May(never)-Fly and the Carbonic boat which are first gen boats.

Time will be the teller I guess but my bet is here!

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Richard Roake has been analysing As at a high level for years and has very interesting things to say about the speed potential of all the top designs.

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Lots of claims but let's see the product. You cannot blame them, but this is a fair bit of hype. For instance, I am sure that Martin Fischer would disagree with comments about this level of rigour in the design process being something new to A's. In addition, there is a new A being built in Oz that was developed using very sophisticated CFD analysis. And the idea that a process can guarantee a better boat is pretty far fetched. For instance, Martin Fischer's Mayfly didn't live up to the hype we saw before it was raced, showing that even the best cannot guarantee to get it right first time.

 

There's a well known saying that I think is appropriate here "When the flag drops, the bullshit stops". I look forward to seeing the boat on the race track.

 

Simon who in Aus. is building a new A ?

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Richard Roake has been analysing As at a high level for years and has very interesting things to say about the speed potential of all the top designs.

So go ahead, tell us more!

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Carbonicboats is also developing a new boat with interesting foils, seem to be the evolution of the MayFly foils.

http://www.carbonicb...logspot.com.au/

https://www.facebook...276925825701235

It's the evolution of the MayFly, not only the foils. Design: Martin Fischer.

If you want it almost twice as big, there is the GC32. Design: Martin Fischer.

It's not an evolution of Martin's design but something started completely from scratch.There are some very significant differences between the way that Martin's centreboards work and these ones. The rudders might appear similar but in effect, you have only 2 options with rudder foils. If you use a foil either side of teh rudder blade, you cannot make them the same size and very big because of the max beam rule. Therefore, if you want more than a certain amount of lifting foil opn the rudder, the L is the only real option and is not something that was first seen on the Mayfly.

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Hi Scarecrow,

 

Is Richard a former aeronautic engineer, retired somewhere and a bit geek with CFD???

 

I'd love to read his latest developments regarding A-Cat.

 

The problem with CDF/RANS is the marginal efficiency of complexity!!

 

My best wishes to the new comers in the A-Cat arena

 

Regards to all

 

W

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Yes that Richard, as in the designer of the LR series of A cats.

 

It's not my place to pass on his info in full, but I don't think he'd mind me saying that he believes the hull shape and foils on the ASG3 are at least as good as the current market leaders and with the beams and boards in the right place they would be super competitive.

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Thanks Scarecrow,

 

So far I remenber the LR2 at the World in 2007?? but I have no idea of later itérations

 

So the "ASG4" of ???...... USA 230 ??? I am not sure... should comply with Richards recommandation???

 

I remenber his innovative sail designed for Randy Smith ???

 

the lack of boom had probably some drawback which could have offseted the benefits of improved induced drag

 

My best regards to Richards

 

Cheers Mate

 

W

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First up, the comment Chris made about the ASG hull drag is valid so long as all the boats your comparing against are at the same displacement. In reality this is almost never the case with sailing weights between135 & 170 kg. At similar weights and say 12 knots of boat speed, the difference between an ASG and an A3 in drag is around 0.2 Newtons, with the DNA being one of the draggiest with 3.1 Newtons more drag. The variation in drag since the days of the Boyers till now is just 12-13 Newtons. What has changed more over time than the drag of the boats is the sailability/driveability of the platforms which is almost always down to things other than drag. So while the salesmen my try to sell you a new platform, the chances are high that your really forking out for a difference of 1-2 Newtons in drag, even the extra drag of the DNA can be negated by someone who sails with just 8-9 kg less sailing weight or displacement. The real gains that Im aware of after sailability come from the appendages, and here DNA have done a good job and some others are just plain terrible with 30+ Newtons of drag more than the DNA appendages. The other myth is that CFD somehow makes for faster boats which it doesn't. Its slow, time & money consuming and not fast enough for an iterative process that needs to be counted in a few hours per cycle (without having to use a supercomputer). At best CFD gives you some insight into what a given shape is doing, but its a damn expensive way to do things and not really within the scope of what most A-Cat builders and designers can afford. A better choice is to move over to high order panel codes that are infinitely quicker but not quite as accurate, but then 10 CFD codes will give you 10 different answers, so accurate is relative at best.

 

Cheers

Richard

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Welcome Richard.

 

You raise some interesting points which I believe are supported by actual evidence. In particular, the comments on the foils are spot on. DNA have done a very good job on them.

 

The more problematic area is the hullshape. Your observations are valid, when the boats are sailing in normal displacement mode. However, the picture changes dramatically when you start using lifting foils. At that point all sorts of factors come into play.First, let's assume we stick with one particular centreboard (I have done my testing with DNA boards). The first variable is the position of the board fore and aft. We see a significant variation and I believe that this impacts which shape produces the least overall drag. By way of example, a standard Flyer 1 with DNA boards positioned in the standard Flyer 1 position has a real problem because , while the bow lifts, the back sinks and drags badly. My solution was to increase the size of the back end of the boat and it worked very well. Another route might have been to move the board back. Interestingly, the Nikita, which is roughly speaking a Flyer 1 with a wider back end, has its centreboard further back than the Flyer 1 and the DNA (which have their boards in about the same position).

 

The wider back end on the Nikita wasn't exactly a great success until curved boards were fitted. People tell me that they thought that a Flyer 1 was quicker. If this is so, then it suggests that the Nikita has more drag than a Flyer 1, but with the right foils, it is less.

 

So the real question for me is how to model all of the variations that could be included into a boat. As you say, CFD is probably not the route to go and even if it was, getting the modelling right for hulls and foils is probably going to take too long and/or cost way too much. And even if you do manage to develop a way of doing in CFD, CFD cannot actually produce the ideas. And the results are only as good as the model you develop.

 

So, if you have any ideas on how to do some of the types of tests I want to do, please share!!

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we shouldn't hijack this thread, they wanted to talk about the new boat...start a new thread and we can continue

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Great render, but what does it really tell us about the boat?

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Nice fairing of the curved front beam, nice chamfer aft for trapeezing DW, elliptical beam section, fast bow!

Says quite a bit really :)

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what was scheuer's role in the existing dna?

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what was scheuer's role in the existing dna?

Nothing! Completely different manufacturer

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Nice fairing of the curved front beam, nice chamfer aft for trapeezing DW, elliptical beam section, fast bow!

Says quite a bit really :)

But nothing about what really counts. The stiffest platform out there is said to be the Vision and that has plain round beams with no fairing, the bow looks to me to be the standard Scheurer shape. The key things on an A are not shown - the underwater shape and the foils. They can make everything else as pretty and strong as they like, but an average boat with the right shape and foils will simply sail away from a beutifully strong and well buil;t boats with the wrong hullshape and foils! We expect a well built and detailed boat from Scheurer, because that is what their core capability is. What interests me is how different this is from the boat that Landy sailed at the worlds. If this is simply a refined and well detailed version of that, they could well be on to something as clearly that shape and foils work. If it is all new, then they will need to prove it.

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what was scheuer's role in the existing dna?

Nothing! Completely different manufacturer

Nothing? The DNA is a blend of Nikita DNA, Scheurer DNA and JLo DNA.

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Nice fairing of the curved front beam, nice chamfer aft for trapeezing DW, elliptical beam section, fast bow!

Says quite a bit really :)

But nothing about what really counts. The stiffest platform out there is said to be the Vision and that has plain round beams with no fairing, the bow looks to me to be the standard Scheurer shape. The key things on an A are not shown - the underwater shape and the foils. They can make everything else as pretty and strong as they like, but an average boat with the right shape and foils will simply sail away from a beutifully strong and well buil;t boats with the wrong hullshape and foils! We expect a well built and detailed boat from Scheurer, because that is what their core capability is. What interests me is how different this is from the boat that Landy sailed at the worlds. If this is simply a refined and well detailed version of that, they could well be on to something as clearly that shape and foils work. If it is all new, then they will need to prove it.

 

Some clarifications: The D3 and the Scheurer G6 are two different shoes.

 

The Scheurer G6 is designed and built by Andy Scheurer, owner of Scheurer Bootswerft AG. The version 2013 will almost look like the version 2012, with some interior and exterior "goodies" ;-)

 

The D3 is designed by Dominik Scheurer (Andy's son), owner of Scheurer Design Engineering and Gonzalo Redondo, head of D3 Applied Technologies. The builder of the D3 is not yet disclosed. The render is a teaser, the really interesting things will follow ;-)

 

So there will be one more brand and contender in the A Class market.

 

flojo

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Nice fairing of the curved front beam, nice chamfer aft for trapeezing DW, elliptical beam section, fast bow!

Says quite a bit really :)

But nothing about what really counts. The stiffest platform out there is said to be the Vision and that has plain round beams with no fairing, the bow looks to me to be the standard Scheurer shape. The key things on an A are not shown - the underwater shape and the foils. They can make everything else as pretty and strong as they like, but an average boat with the right shape and foils will simply sail away from a beutifully strong and well buil;t boats with the wrong hullshape and foils! We expect a well built and detailed boat from Scheurer, because that is what their core capability is. What interests me is how different this is from the boat that Landy sailed at the worlds. If this is simply a refined and well detailed version of that, they could well be on to something as clearly that shape and foils work. If it is all new, then they will need to prove it.

"The stiffest platform out there is said to be the Vision ..." Hallo? Got some proof of it?

"... the bow looks to me to be the standard Scheurer shape." Hallo? Did you really compare?

 

Please stop spitting, it's just a teeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeaser !

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Nice fairing of the curved front beam, nice chamfer aft for trapeezing DW, elliptical beam section, fast bow!

Says quite a bit really :)

But nothing about what really counts. The stiffest platform out there is said to be the Vision and that has plain round beams with no fairing, the bow looks to me to be the standard Scheurer shape. The key things on an A are not shown - the underwater shape and the foils. They can make everything else as pretty and strong as they like, but an average boat with the right shape and foils will simply sail away from a beutifully strong and well buil;t boats with the wrong hullshape and foils! We expect a well built and detailed boat from Scheurer, because that is what their core capability is. What interests me is how different this is from the boat that Landy sailed at the worlds. If this is simply a refined and well detailed version of that, they could well be on to something as clearly that shape and foils work. If it is all new, then they will need to prove it.

 

 

Just received some info from Andy Scheurer , Landy will continue to sail the "Scheurer G6" , his boat is currently under construction at Scheurer Bootswerft.

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Nice rendering, but wow this is complicated with 2 different Scheurers building boats seperately?

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what was scheuer's role in the existing dna?

Nothing! Completely different manufacturer

Nothing? The DNA is a blend of Nikita DNA, Scheurer DNA and JLo DNA.

First, read the question. Neither of the Scheurer's had any part in the design or building of the DNA. Next, have you ever compared the lines of these boats? I have, in CAD and side by side. I have also spent some time discussing the history of teh development of the current designs with Landy, who seems to know mo9re about that subject that anybody else, having lived with Nils when he was developing the Nikita, sailed a Marstrom and worked with Scheurer to devlop their last few boats. I know that the DNA guys measured every design around and what they say in their marketing, but the only similarity the DNA has to the Nikita is the curved boards. It is also very different to any of the Scheurers and as for JLo, well, even then, I think you are wrong because the DNA is big all through, while JLo is only big in the arse :D

 

As an aside, the boat that is closest to the underwater sections of the DNA is the Marstrom, which came as a big surprise to me. AFAIK, that was one design they didn't check! However, the Marstrom uses very different boards, the cases are in a very different position as are the beams.

 

I personally believe that the DNA guys don't get enough credit for having designed something pretty original. This idea that their boat is simply a development of the Nikita, or any other design, doesn't seem to stack up when actually looking at the lines. They might have used the other designs as a starting point for a discussion of what they liked and didn't like, but the conclusions they came to led them down a new path.

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Anyone think that this thing might be going to be built in NZ?

The worlds are here next (well 2014) year, so easy to get a bunch of boats to the worlds.

Their latest rudders are being built in Auckland.

And they're not disclosing where they're building them, so likely in a rather unexpected spot.

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what was scheuer's role in the existing dna?

Nothing! Completely different manufacturer

Nothing? The DNA is a blend of Nikita DNA, Scheurer DNA and JLo DNA.

First, read the question. Neither of the Scheurer's had any part in the design or building of the DNA. Next, have you ever compared the lines of these boats? I have, in CAD and side by side. I have also spent some time discussing the history of teh development of the current designs with Landy, who seems to know mo9re about that subject that anybody else, having lived with Nils when he was developing the Nikita, sailed a Marstrom and worked with Scheurer to devlop their last few boats. I know that the DNA guys measured every design around and what they say in their marketing, but the only similarity the DNA has to the Nikita is the curved boards. It is also very different to any of the Scheurers and as for JLo, well, even then, I think you are wrong because the DNA is big all through, while JLo is only big in the arse :D

 

As an aside, the boat that is closest to the underwater sections of the DNA is the Marstrom, which came as a big surprise to me. AFAIK, that was one design they didn't check! However, the Marstrom uses very different boards, the cases are in a very different position as are the beams.

 

I personally believe that the DNA guys don't get enough credit for having designed something pretty original. This idea that their boat is simply a development of the Nikita, or any other design, doesn't seem to stack up when actually looking at the lines. They might have used the other designs as a starting point for a discussion of what they liked and didn't like, but the conclusions they came to led them down a new path.

Congratulations for taking such a big effort to reengineer at least four complete A-Class designs (including rudders and boards) into CAD. But i thik you made some substantial errors there. I remain with my opinion: A Nikita/Scheuer blend with a JLo ass.

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Some clarifications: The D3 and the Scheurer G6 are two different shoes.

 

The Scheurer G6 is designed and built by Andy Scheurer, owner of Scheurer Bootswerft AG. The version 2013 will almost look like the version 2012, with some interior and exterior "goodies" ;-)

 

The D3 is designed by Dominik Scheurer (Andy's son), owner of Scheurer Design Engineering and Gonzalo Redondo, head of D3 Applied Technologies. The builder of the D3 is not yet disclosed. The render is a teaser, the really interesting things will follow ;-)

 

So there will be one more brand and contender in the A Class market.

 

flojo

 

I am puzzled by Dominique’s move with building the D3. From what I can tell, the A-cat manufacturing business may be more competitive than any other sailing class. I count the following manufacturer’s actively taking orders and building new boats:

 

ARC DNA

Nikita

Scheurer G6

Catamaran Part’s Vision

Bimare Zero

Marstrom M5

Blue Streak Evo

Carbonic Paradox

 

Plus the following small builder’s who will/may build boats under contract:

 

Lindahl LR-4

Lars Guck’s A4

Racer X – Icon

New French boat ???

 

In addition there are many one-off and club garage builders

 

I can’t think of any small boat class with more builders per boat sold. I would think that making significant money by building A-cats would be pretty difficult for all but the top few builders. My impression was that Dominik was most interested in making F-One parts while Andy was interested in building cats. Dominik’s plans to build the D3 raises some questions:

  • Has Dominik suddenly developed a new interest in racing cats or does he see this only as an attractive business opportunity?

  • Does anyone have any insight into his motivations?

  • To my knowledge only Blue Streak Boat Works subcontracts the manufacture of the platforms. What is the business case for subcontracting the platform manufacture of a successful A-cat design?

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"The stiffest platform out there is said to be the Vision ..." Hallo? Got some proof of it?

Sorry, I missed this, so sorry for the late reply.

 

About 6 months ago, a rig was set up and the Vision, Ninkita, DNA and a Scheurer (don't know if it was a 5 or 6) were tested for platform twist. The Vision showed twisted the least. While I wasn't ther and cannot therefore be certain that the test method was sound, this observation was the same as told to me by Steve Brewin, so i am pretty happy to make the comment that the Vision platform is the stiffest, by which I mean twists the least.

 

 

Congratulations for taking such a big effort to reengineer at least four complete A-Class designs (including rudders and boards) into CAD. But i thik you made some substantial errors there. I remain with my opinion: A Nikita/Scheurer blend with a JLo ass.

Well, you are entitled to believe that i have made mistakes and if it were just me who had done this, I would be happy to say that it was a possibility. However, I know at least 2 people who have measured the boats and I have seen 2 different sets of CAD drawings and 1 set of hand produced ones, made directly from a lengthy measuring process. I have spent hours discussing this and comparing boats and am pretty confident that people like Landy, Bob Baier, Chris Cairns and others know what they are talking about. I am not really doing very much off my own back but using what I have been given and the evidence from others. When you actually have the lines and know the stories of how the boats were developed, it really is a bit of an eye opener. All you have to do is a little verification to check what you have been given is correct.

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Simon,

 

Do you mind sharing the details of the measurement process? I am most curious for my own edification. I have reverse engineered complex curves in the past using very expensive processes and can say with confidence you will be lucky to achieve the detail needed to properly model a boat in full CFD for less than the price of a new A cat. Specifically, you need accuracy to within 0.001 inches on the foils, although rough performance estimates can be made with less detail at these Reynolds numbers.

 

-Sam

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Sam, I measure boats for modeling purposes regularly. Typically people slice the boat into stations and waterlines develop a table of offsets the assume fair lines between key points. Back when I lived in NZ I measured a 45 foot boat this way using a builder's laser level, plumb bob and tape measure. 18 months later because the owner didn't trust my results.it was re-measured by laser and my model was within 2 mm throughout.

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Simon,

 

Do you mind sharing the details of the measurement process? I am most curious for my own edification. I have reverse engineered complex curves in the past using very expensive processes and can say with confidence you will be lucky to achieve the detail needed to properly model a boat in full CFD for less than the price of a new A cat. Specifically, you need accuracy to within 0.001 inches on the foils, although rough performance estimates can be made with less detail at these Reynolds numbers.

 

-Sam

 

So what you are saying is that one session with a wetsanding block and you have a rather different set of foils...

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You can scan an A hull with laser points for a lot less than the cost of a new A cat fastyacht!

 

This D3-Scheurer looks the business, fully appended (foils on rudder's too! :) ) 2 DoF CFD simulations of a number of foil arrangements and locations!!

I know that Paradox had Martin Fischer doing some CFD but certainly not to this degree, will be great to see it sailing in the Euro's soon, they have some great sailors lined up for them too.

Go the D3-Scheurer Team!!!

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I wrote to Dominic Scheurer requesting some information on the next iteration of the G6 and the proposed D3. There was a press release announcing the planning of the D3 and that the G6 would get a few extra "goodies". This is the response from Dominic 19/1/2013:

 

"we talk about the new D3! There is no new G6. My father which is doing the G6 has sold his company. I guess he will not send a container to Australia. If you want, you can ask my dad. [Andy Scheurer]

 

 

Regarding NZ, some parts of the D3 will be produced in Auckland. Means we send a container for the worlds ;-)

 

Cheers,

Dom"

 

Surprised me. And no indication who Andy sold to or if there is any more input from Andy Scheurer. Just speculating, but perhaps there is a higher profit found in making parts for racing cars..

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Some news from the new boat, they be some niiiice hulls!!

post-58739-0-39437000-1359732382_thumb.png

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I wrote to Dominic Scheurer requesting some information on the next iteration of the G6 and the proposed D3. There was a press release announcing the planning of the D3 and that the G6 would get a few extra "goodies". This is the response from Dominic 19/1/2013:

 

"we talk about the new D3! There is no new G6. My father which is doing the G6 has sold his company. I guess he will not send a container to Australia. If you want, you can ask my dad. [Andy Scheurer]

 

 

Regarding NZ, some parts of the D3 will be produced in Auckland. Means we send a container for the worlds ;-)

 

Cheers,

Dom"

 

Surprised me. And no indication who Andy sold to or if there is any more input from Andy Scheurer. Just speculating, but perhaps there is a higher profit found in making parts for racing cars..

Andy Scheurer did not sell his company, he is CEO and head of the board. To build a bigger boatyard he looked for a financially strong partner, which he found. The last two years he was very busy running the old boatyard and observing the build of the new boatyard, which is very impressive:

post-16422-0-45969300-1360067882_thumb.jpgpost-16422-0-78393300-1360067948_thumb.jpg

post-16422-0-74225100-1360069350_thumb.jpgpost-16422-0-08350800-1360069371_thumb.jpg

 

The Scheurer G6 2013 has been modified in two ways:

- even stronger internal structure.

- rudder winglets (retrofittable, the same ones which Landy uses now for two years).

post-16422-0-75725600-1360069097_thumb.jpg

 

There are 12 new G6 on order, most of them going to the Europeans in Spain. At least 4 of them will then go to Australia and later to the Worlds in New Zealand. And - of course - Landy and Brad will sail the G6

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Thanks flojo. I relied upon and cited an email from Dominic in my Jan 20th post.

 

I'd rather believe your account and can't understand why Dominic would send me that email if it is plainly wrong.

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D3Acat.png

New D3 A-Class dagger-board positions:

 

- Blue = 105% Span: Upwind light. Max side-force.

- Green = 100% Span: Standard UW Position. Similar to current C-boards full down.

- Yellow = 75% Span: Standard DW Position. Maintains lift, reduces side-force.

- Red = <75% Span: DW Position. Reduces lift, reduces side-force.

- Pink = <30% Span: Downwind light. Two hulls on the water.

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More news from the guys behind the D3-Scheurer!!!

They have CDK building them! Going to probably be the best quality A-Cat around then, in autoclave and all?

 

 

 

"A-Class News:

 

Scheurer Design & Eng. is very proud to announce the shipyard of the upcoming D3 A-Class catamaran.

CDK Technologies based in Port la Forêt (France) is the perfect partner to transfer cutting edge engineering into top quality boats.

 

CEO: Dominik Scheurer

________________________________________

Created in January 1984 by Hubert Desjoyeaux, CDK Technologies in specialized in high tech racing boat building, among more than 40 realizations we can mention Banque populaire V the largest racing trimaran built ever, the MOD 70 monotype, and of course five of the20 boats who raced the last Vendee Globe with among them Macif and Banque Populaire VI which arrived in first and second rank.

All our boats from an Optimist series in the early 90 to Maxi trimaran Banque Populaire, monohull or multihull did win most of the famous sailing races like, the “Route du Rhum”, the “Transat Jacques Vabres”, the Ostar, the “Vendée Globe”, the “Jules Verne Trophy”, the ORMA or FORMULA 40 championship etc.

All our boats are built either out of PrePreg carbon fibre with oven or autoclave post cure or out of epoxy infusion process to insure the highest level of quality to our skippers. For the rigs our 50 m autoclave allows us a large scope of dimensions.

We are today happy and proud to start this new adventure along with Scheurer Design & Eng by building their new ambitious A Class. We will provide all our dedication and experience to Dominik Scheurer project. We are convinced that Scheurer Design & Eng. expertise allied to CDK Technologies know how in term of conception and building since 30 years will allow our team to launch the most sophisticated and reliable A Class at the beginning of this 2013 season.

 

Operations Manager: Michel Ollivier"

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I think you meant to say pre-preg with vacuum bag, Honeycomb is not suitable for autoclave, perhaps using panels of foam?

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use honeycomb or foam panels in D3? then create in an autoclave only the first layer? the whole sandwich in an autoclave is not a good thing, I know very well this technology.

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<p>I'm not convinced you do, the marstrom a cat and m32 along with a huge amount of aircraft parts are honeycomb core, cured in autoclave. just google it :)

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the honeycomb is not resistant to the pressures of the autoclave, even if the honeycomb is heavy (increase of total weight of the boat), it also creates many aesthetic flaws (marking) very evident when the carbon layer that covers it is very thin as in class A, you can hide these defects spraying and sanding (again added weight). is unwise to use pressure autoclave with Honeycomb, but you can greatly reduce the pressure. There are other problems, but I do not want make controversy. I just want to give some advice, even if you are competing manufacturers.

 

Regards, Michele

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I am not involved with the D3-Scheurer at all...

Im not arguing anything, just saying that an autoclaved pre-preg nomex cored boat will be nice! (maybe nicer than a Bimare? ;) )

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the honeycomb is not resistant to the pressures of the autoclave, even if the honeycomb is heavy (increase of total weight of the boat), it also creates many aesthetic flaws (marking) very evident when the carbon layer that covers it is very thin as in class A, you can hide these defects spraying and sanding (again added weight). is unwise to use pressure autoclave with Honeycomb, but you can greatly reduce the pressure. There are other problems, but I do not want make controversy. I just want to give some advice, even if you are competing manufacturers.

 

Regards, Michele

 

Michele, pull your head in and stop bullshitting on threads about the competition's boats. Until a few years ago you could only use honeycomb for autoclave built boats as none of the foams could take the tempurature. 15 years ago we as a group of inexperianced students built this in the boeing autoclaves it was baked at 180 degrees celcius and 7 atmospheres of pressure. 300gsm of carbon on the outside, 200 on the inside. Cores ranged from 5mm to 50mm depending on location. As a world renowned boat builder I'm sure you can do at least as good a job.

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It would be nice to know who I speak , a name. The best manufacturer of racing canoes uses only the vacuum bag and reduces the negative pressure up to 0.5 bar,this is an example. Again, I just gave some advice because I know and work for 9 years with this technology, no controversy. So take it easy.

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Its not hard to find out who I am, click on my Name and you'll find a link to my website. I have no interest in getting into a pissing match with you as yes you do have a lot more composite experiance than me. However, don't go into threads about your competition and make bullshit claims about what is and isn't possible, especially having gone on a rant last week about people bashing your company in threads. You need to take the high road and let your boats do the talking on the water because in the modern world making negative comments about your direct competition makes your look nervious about your own product and how it measures up and as a result usually backfires.

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Thanks Scarecrow,

 

As your English is much better than mine, I greatly appreciate your comments,

they save the effort to disclose the true driver of ITA16 comments.

 

What I love the most is when ITA16 claims he just want to give advice, that's so sweet.

Take care Scarecrow:

 

Dont't argue with a bimare, You cannot win, He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience

 

ITA16, thanks for this opportunity to have a big laught, humour is good for health

 

Good wind Mates

 

W

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Thanks Scarecrow,

 

As your English is much better than mine, I greatly appreciate your comments,

they save the effort to disclose the true driver of ITA16 comments.

 

What I love the most is when ITA16 claims he just want to give advice, that's so sweet.

Take care Scarecrow:

 

Dont't argue with a bimare, You cannot win, He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience

 

ITA16, thanks for this opportunity to have a big laught, humour is good for health

 

Good wind Mates

 

W

 

 

Here,catnewbye arrived,I felt the smell. A sage old saying: the greatness of a person be measured with how many enemies it has.

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the honeycomb is not resistant to the pressures of the autoclave, even if the honeycomb is heavy (increase of total weight of the boat), it also creates many aesthetic flaws (marking) very evident when the carbon layer that covers it is very thin as in class A, you can hide these defects spraying and sanding (again added weight). is unwise to use pressure autoclave with Honeycomb, but you can greatly reduce the pressure. There are other problems, but I do not want make controversy. I just want to give some advice, even if you are competing manufacturers.

 

Regards, Michele

This is done in ONE PIECE in an autoclave. Indirgents: Nomex, carbon prepreg and some film.

Have a look at this, too. Not bad for a 4.2 kg board, eh?

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the honeycomb is not resistant to the pressures of the autoclave, even if the honeycomb is heavy (increase of total weight of the boat), it also creates many aesthetic flaws (marking) very evident when the carbon layer that covers it is very thin as in class A, you can hide these defects spraying and sanding (again added weight). is unwise to use pressure autoclave with Honeycomb, but you can greatly reduce the pressure. There are other problems, but I do not want make controversy. I just want to give some advice, even if you are competing manufacturers.

 

Regards, Michele

Michele

 

While we may not agree on the future of the A Class, I have always believed in the quality of the product you build. However, posting comments like this will do nothing for your hard earned reputation, because you are so wrong about honeycomb and autoclaves.

 

I actually built some special K1 and C1 canoes for the British Olympic team in 1982/3 for the '84 Olympocs using carbon/honeycomb in an autoclave which belonged to a well known UK rowing boat manufacturer. Since then, I have known a number of boatbuilders who use honeycomb with autoclaves, the best known being Marstrom, who use this construction method for a number of boats. Goran even buils his A's with honeycomb in his autoclave. In aerospace, almost all the composite panels used that have honeycomb in are autoclaved and there are very good technical reasons for this.

 

I know you have serious concerns about "exotics" costing so much that they will kill the class, but spreading misinformation about how competitors build their boats is just as bad as the people who post bad, unjustified comments about your company. Your best response is to do what you are doing - produce a well built boat at a very good price. Proving you can produce a winner at a significant discount to the competitors will change the whole conversation. The problem is that while prepreg carbon/honeycomb boats are winning the major events, you will struggle to convince people of your argument.

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it's not so easy , there is a lot of way to use honeycomb , and each way have a consequence in cost . and using an autoclave doesn't mean it's used at 7 bar.

and for sure a low density 10 mm honeycomb at 7 bar , it's not useful at all and dangerous.?

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Hey ! I just gave advice ! I know perfectly this technology, "it's my job," I've used this in one of my A class five years ago, I know exactly what problems can be applied this on A cat .

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yup,

honey comb and prepreg go together, prepreg needs an oven. an autoclave is a type of oven.

it's a work around to use honeycomb w/o prepreg.

honeycomb/carbon seems to yeild the stiffest boat, but wouldn't it be nice if the flexible OR72 platform idea could be made to work.

flex can be fast when used correctly; like to bleed off un-needed power automaticaly then spring back. Carbon has better flex properties than glass. and costs 5x more. just like it costs extra to deal with prepreg/honeycomb.

it is amazing to see how many builders seem to have the best composite skills possible and have beatiful products. respect.

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Tremendous-looking impressive....

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Love your work Dom!!!

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I'm trying to understand what makes this boat "more sophisticated and reliable" (from the front page). Obviously compared to my flyer its like comparing the Wright brothers plane to an F22-raptor, and I have no doubt the computer power thats gone into this thing is phenomonal compared to what they had when they designed my boat. However why is it more sophisticated and reliable then all the other new boats at the moment, like the DNA, Paradox, Vision etc. I recently sailed the Paradox, and by reading their blog you can see it is rather sophisticated, and it feels super stiff, and the foil system is rather sophisticated, as is the construction, it has ultra high mod carbon beams doesn't it, and DNA and Paradox both have Nomex cores?

Its just tricky to understand what the difference is between all the boats out at the moment is through all the marketing hype everyones pumping out. Also, why is it similar to formula one? Can you use similar computer programs to design the structure of the boat and an F1 car? (obviously you can't crash it into a wall like an F1 car!)

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sailingkid

 

Ever heard of marketing? ;) Some people believe the marketing, others wait and see how well new designs actually perform in the race environment. While I wish the D3 every success, I will wait to celibrate that success until after it has proven itself. The biggest issue will be that it might be some time before there is a regatta where there are both good conditions and the top sailors, as I fear that the Europeans will be very light and prove nothing. And there lies the problem. Do you risk going to the NZ worlds with one of the new designs that isn't really proven on the international stage. It could be one of those "hero or zero" decisions, which is part of the fun of development classes.

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Although I am a reader of the forum, I did not intend to write something on this thread. However, I think it will not harm anybody if I give an explanation by myself.

 

First of all, I have done my best to design a good A-Class, using all the resources, know-how and experience in my company. If we succeed or not, it will be seen on the water. I am confident with the research program we have carried out and although the boat is a development of current platforms, the concept is conventional enough to be safe when it comes to performance.

 

Regarding the claims above, Dominik can explain better as he is the one taking care of structural engineering, construction and marketing, but I understand that what he means is that the boat has been design and engineered with the same software tools and construction methodology as a racing car, which, as you may know, is the core business of his company.

 

Regarding the “sophisticated” claim, I believe CDK-Technologies is referring to the fact that the boat has many design details such as beam fairings, dagger-board tips, chamfer for trapezing, etc. If it is the most sophisticated or not I don't know. According to the dictionary sophisticated means “complex”, if so, then I would like to say that we've tried to design the opposite ^_^ , a simple to sail boat with as few controls as possible. I'm quite an average A-Class sailor and boats already have more controls than what I can handle correctly.

 

Compared to others, I know Dario and I know he's done an excellent work. I also met the DNA guys last month in Murcia, Spain, and congratulate them for all the good they have done to the class through the DNA. If they sold so many boats it's for a reason! I've also seen their masts and all I can say is that they look fantastic. Just to be clear, I love this class and everybody putting some effort on it, whether it's successful or not, deserves my respect.

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I think it's going to be a very good testing ground for all of the new designs in the land down under (2014 Worlds). With a thin piece of land positioned inbetween the Pacific Ocean and Tasman Sea we will get all different kinds wind and sea conditions. Perfect!!!!

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904913_650448728303678_1166344954_o.jpg

 

Carbon moulds are done. Now post-cure during 15h up to 100°C to get the perfect quality. Stay tuned... ;-)

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Impressive tooling!

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