bljones

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30 degrees true is the "pointing like shit" line?

 

Really? Have the bulk of performance boats really improved that much? I remember when better than 30 degrees AWA was the province of hot race boats.

 

It doesn't seem very long ago either. ^_^

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I do wonder if a full keel can point better than 45 true. I could be wrong as I never sailed one, but have sailed against, and it always seemed like they struggle upwind. 30 deg was probably a bit over zealous a line in the sand. It seems that modern boats are right around 30-35 line for the most part. Our vintage, not so much. I hover in the 35-40 range when trimmed up. Im always trying to improve it, but my boat lacks some of the magic needed to get to 30 or better.

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I think its not so much how high you point, but how fast you go.

 

Actually both, yea? :)

 

dell2.jpg

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DDW had a very interesting post on speed and height in a multihull thread

 

 

 

Simple answer; they're sailing faster than any mono to windward ... therefore multihull apparent wind is carried further forward.

^^ that is under appreciated by most sailors. I'm sure this will stir up some s**t:

 

Any sailboat's most efficient pointing angle (relative wind angle) is the sum of the aerodynamic and hydrodynamic drag angles (arctan(L/D ratios)). This by itself isn't a revelation or even controversial, it is simply a mathematical consequence of the definition of the terms. However the L/D ratios are inherent (mostly) in the design of the boat - efficiency of the rig minus the windage of hulls, efficiency of the foils, etc. - so its most efficient pointing angle is built into the design. It varies very little over normal wind strengths. As a boat picks up speed, the apparent wind pulls ahead, to maintain the more or less fixed efficient pointing angle the true wind angle gets wider. The increase in speed must be enough to overcome the extra distance sailed.

 

Everyone knows this so far. If you go on to plot the resulting VMG as a function of boat speed, with a fixed true wind and fixed apparent wind angle, you will notice that for a given set of numbers, there is a maximum VMG that can be achieved. Boat speeds above that will result in the distance sailed increasing faster than the boat speed, and VMG will fall. Due to the nature of cosines, a more weatherly boat suffers much less than a weatherly boat. So an A class cat, with very efficient rig and foils, can sail very fast and still do good VMG because its pointing angle is fine. On the other hand typical cruising cats, with a lot of windage in the hull and superstructure and maybe not too efficient underneath either, cannot do well to windward no matter how fast it sails because its pointing angle is modest.

 

Here are some examples. The first is a boat with an efficient pointing angle of 28 degrees (not bad for a cruising boat) in 10 knots true wind. Its maximum VMG is 5.6 knots at 11 knots boat speed and 18.3 knots apparent. Go faster than that, and VMG drops:

 

Apparentwind2810_zpsee1509ba.jpg

 

If the pointing angle is widened to 35 degrees (more typical of a cruising cat) in the same 10 knot wind the maximum possible VMG is 3.7 knots at 8 knots boat speed and 15.4 knots apparent. Go faster, and again VMG drops:

 

Apparentwind3510_zpsd98ec242.jpg

 

Cracking off of the most efficient pointing angle only makes things worse. Obviously in lots of wind the situation improves, because boat speed is smaller relative to wind speed and the apparent wind angle changes less. And as efficient pointing angles get into the teens (as they do in extreme racing boats) there is less effect even at lower wind speeds. But it is a problem for cruising cats. Cruising monos tend to have a little better pointing angle and aren't able to go very fast, so less of an issue. Note that a boat pointing at 28 degrees only needs to do less that 5 knots to beat the 35 degree boat's best possible VMG.

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Gentlemen never sail to weather.

 

Who ever said I was a gentleman?

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What about old long keel 6 and 12 meters? They point pretty good.

 

As someone said recently "They point like tourists".

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What about old long keel 6 and 12 meters? They point pretty good.

 

As compared to what? I don't mean to be flippant. (Well, maybe I do, but there is also a point to consider.) They were very good upwind compared to other boats of the same era, but not as good as the fin keel 12s that followed. Even then, the 12 Meter rule didn't allow a really good keel due mostly to draft limitations/

 

In his autobiography, Olin Stephens compared two of his 12s of the fin keel era. The newer boat did not point quite as high as the older one, but was enough faster to have better VMG.

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Gentlemen never sail to weather.

 

Who ever said I was a gentleman?

When I read your byline, I figured you had to be one.

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Sorry, don't know what to admire about this one. except for how truly ugly it is. The company did just go into bankruptcy (if that is what 'wound up' means). Sad for anyone's business.

 

I think the 5th grade class Bob taught for a couple of hours could do better than this.

 

Instead of Smarboat they should have called it 'boring triangle boat' How about some curves? think how may you could jam in for a rendezvous. something like this V^V^V^V^V^V^V^V^V^V^V^V^V^V^V^V^V^

 

They sold over 130 23' & 30' boats in the last five years.

 

post-13551-0-77000500-1408510510_thumb.jpg

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Sounds like the design and marketing departments occupied adjoining stools at the bar.

"Bill, draw me a boat..."

"thas a great scribble on that napkin. Thas the boat we're gonna build! That's a right smar boat there, it is."

"Thass what we'll call 'em, Dan..."

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The new Whaler from Beneteau, when you don't want to LOOK like a fisherman until you get there.

Sorry, don't know what to admire about this one. except for how truly ugly it is. The company did just go into bankruptcy (if that is what 'wound up' means). Sad for anyone's business.

 

I think the 5th grade class Bob taught for a couple of hours could do better than this.

 

Instead of Smarboat they should have called it 'boring triangle boat' How about some curves? think how may you could jam in for a rendezvous. something like this V^V^V^V^V^V^V^V^V^V^V^V^V^V^V^V^V^

 

They sold over 130 23' & 30' boats in the last five years.

 

attachicon.gifsmartboat-23.jpg

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That's got that Wally "stealth" thing going but it needs to be painted black & pewter rather than that army drab colour

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I think that was the point. Those "Clippers" have been here before. The manufacturer ran one across the Atlantic as a promotional stunt. They are indeed butt ugly but I suspect that they seem much more attractive once you are onboard and can't see the big picture.

 

You definitely want to keep your eyes on shore when you row away.

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Maybe it's the angle, but it looks like those are REALLY close neighbors!

 

It's a good thing the blue one is wedge-shaped, there really is only one 8" fender width between them.

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Now that is inexcusable.

 

After all that it STILL doesn't have full standing headroom.

 

What a waste of a good little boat.

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Maybe they're dwarfs.

 

Think of the boat yard owner.

 

Did he smile happily with a cold black heart as he wrote the work order? Was there a ting of guilt? Did he TRY to talk the owner down using common sense and good taste? Did he have an extra drink at the pub? Possibly a few more moments in confession, or with the shrink?

 

Now I'm concerned...

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No chance of getting whacked on the head by the boom. That's gotta be a plus....I guess.

 

Looking at the photos the quality of the workmanship, especially the interior, looks

pretty damn good.

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I'd love to see that vessel with mast up under sail. I wonder if they shortened the mast? Stepped on top of the cabin? Where does the running rigging lead? Where is the rudder? I see gudgeons on the transom...tiller steering under sail or do they hook the tiller up to the wheel system?

So many questions to be answered......

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"The pilothouse has 5'-10" headroom."

 

Considering I'm all of 5' 7", I could almost perform callisthenics in there, including Jumping Jacks.

 

However, even at 65, I look better than this guy!

 

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I'd love to see that vessel with mast up under sail. I wonder if they shortened the mast? Stepped on top of the cabin? Where does the running rigging lead? Where is the rudder? I see gudgeons on the transom...tiller steering under sail or do they hook the tiller up to the wheel system?

So many questions to be answered......

 

It looks stepped on roof, so I guess the shrouds must be on the cabin top also.

 

It has winches, you would think you'd have to be pretty feeble to need them for the tiny bit of sail that is left until I think about where the sheets must run...

Hydraulic steering also, it appears to be a perfect example of the engineering solution to a problem that should never have been created !

 

I would love to know how long it took him to make all those modifications...

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The Salvador Dali school of yacht design.

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Sorry, don't know what to admire about this one. except for how truly ugly it is. The company did just go into bankruptcy (if that is what 'wound up' means). Sad for anyone's business.

 

I think the 5th grade class Bob taught for a couple of hours could do better than this.

 

Instead of Smarboat they should have called it 'boring triangle boat' How about some curves? think how may you could jam in for a rendezvous. something like this V^V^V^V^V^V^V^V^V^V^V^V^V^V^V^V^V^

 

They sold over 130 23' & 30' boats in the last five years.

 

attachicon.gifsmartboat-23.jpg

 

 

That does look like a low-rent Wally.

The outboard version with a set of downriggers would be the coolest looking salmon fishing boat on the Great Lakes. :D

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I'd love to see that vessel with mast up under sail. I wonder if they shortened the mast? Stepped on top of the cabin? Where does the running rigging lead? Where is the rudder? I see gudgeons on the transom...tiller steering under sail or do they hook the tiller up to the wheel system?

So many questions to be answered......

 

There's a hydraulic ram (presumably connected to the interior wheel and a stub tiller), another solid steering arm from the tiller to the kicker outboard wouldn't be hard and easy to disconnect with the OB tilted up.

And more like so many questions answered that went unasked for so long...

 

site1075.jpg

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Modern, Stylish, Distinctive Design……Spacious and comfortable decks, safe side decks with high bulwark are designed to truly experience the best life at sea.

 

http://www.unitedyacht.com/boatdetails.php?recordnumber=589

 

PDF Brochure

http://www.uyslist.com/yachts/589/brochure.pdf

This reminds me I need to take a dump.

At least it will be easy to dispose of.

Hell it might even be something to be proud of, unlike the HMS Turdo.

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Did they leave the deck moulding in the oven too long?

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I'd love to see that vessel with mast up under sail. I wonder if they shortened the mast? Stepped on top of the cabin? Where does the running rigging lead? Where is the rudder? I see gudgeons on the transom...tiller steering under sail or do they hook the tiller up to the wheel system?

So many questions to be answered......

 

There's a hydraulic ram (presumably connected to the interior wheel and a stub tiller), another solid steering arm from the tiller to the kicker outboard wouldn't be hard and easy to disconnect with the OB tilted up.

And more like so many questions answered that went unasked for so long...

 

site1075.jpg

 

 

That looks like an ordinary steering cable to me. Like the nice camper, it doesn't belong on the boat, but I don't think it's hydraulic.

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here are a couple for you lads

 

these are in Shoreham harbour

 

kent

 

2232509071_eb36ef34e6.jpg

Bilbo Baggins called- he wants his boat back. and he wants harry potter's ginger buddy to get his car out of the second storey flat.

The large window porthole left of the car....is that a bathtub?

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You want ugly?

 

272591d1349482685-worst-looking-boat-eve

Damn.

 

Looks a bit like some of the older NHL goalies that didn't wear face protection.

 

What the hell...?

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Which of those is not like the other three?

 

Only one of them does not have automobile tires involved.

 

Its a trick question. GM did not put . . . . . . .

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You want ugly?

 

272591d1349482685-worst-looking-boat-eve

Looks to me like a Tim Burton derived contraption, like the little dog Frankenweenie.

 

frankenweenie92020122.jpeg

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The boat in the sling lift looks great if you scroll down until you can only see bottom paint.

 

The little cat is very cool! Any info on it that I can share with the Cowmaran brain trust?

 

It appears to have too much house and not enough deck, but that might just be a tropical preference.

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The boat in the sling lift looks great if you scroll down until you can only see bottom paint.

 

The little cat is very cool! Any info on it that I can share with the Cowmaran brain trust?

 

It appears to have too much house and not enough deck, but that might just be a tropical preference.

 

Tom, you are far too kind, we used to call big power boats "penis boats", that one is a double from a seedy cartoon alien porno flick (my wife made me watch em, honestly).

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I delivered a powercat from the West Coast of Florida to the Islands and one of the Rasta ground keepers took one look at it as we pulled up to the resort dock and said, "Mon! Dat boat be so ugly, dat it should be called 'DOUBLE UGLY'!" The name stuck.

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The boat in the sling lift looks great if you scroll down until you can only see bottom paint.

The little cat is very cool! Any info on it that I can share with the Cowmaran brain trust?

It appears to have too much house and not enough deck, but that might just be a tropical preference.

Tom, you are far too kind, we used to call big power boats "penis boats", that one is a double from a seedy cartoon alien porno flick (my wife made me watch em, honestly).

I grew up in Miami and saw a few penis boats. That's not one. Tiny little hulls made to run efficiently, not fast.

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It took a lot of work to inflict that decorative piece underneath the bow sprit on that boat. Maybe it looks better in person?

 

Might not have been that much work. Looks like it came off an old chair, or maybe a piece of gingerbread from a porch.

 

And I would bet the Pelican does not look better in person. A friend built one, years back, the impressive thing about it is not the way it looks. Sails quite well though.

 

FB- Doug

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Yeah, I get tired of his wishy washy equivocating too.

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I admire the idea a lot more than the execution. He seems to have taken construction and materials tips from Hot Rod. Except Hot Rod built sturdier motor mounts.

 

The console, steering wheel and windshield are off a Bertram power boat.

 

That's just a sin. It came off a 28 or 31.

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this is a lemon

 

http://towndock.net/shippingnews/audacity

 

17341.jpgwher

 

-That- is a flaming hunk of excrement. Saw it up close, in person, the other day; more or less by accident since my friends boat was moored temporarily at the same marina. I cannot believe any sane person ("sane" even by today's lax standards) actually paid actual money for this ugly-ass abortion.

 

Pictures don't do it justice. It is laughably flimsy, all surfaces rough as a cob and blotchy, the best looking part of it is the duct tape covering the joints where the cross-arms are fastened (?) to the hull. It looks like the "designer" thinks the pictures of boats in Dr Seuss books are actually design plans. I am kind of surprised the marina owner lets it stay there.

 

FB- Doug

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this is a lemon

 

http://towndock.net/shippingnews/audacity

 

17341.jpgwher

 

-That- is a flaming hunk of excrement. Saw it up close, in person, the other day; more or less by accident since my friends boat was moored temporarily at the same marina. I cannot believe any sane person ("sane" even by today's lax standards) actually paid actual money for this ugly-ass abortion.

 

Pictures don't do it justice. It is laughably flimsy, all surfaces rough as a cob and blotchy, the best looking part of it is the duct tape covering the joints where the cross-arms are fastened (?) to the hull. It looks like the "designer" thinks the pictures of boats in Dr Seuss books are actually design plans. I am kind of surprised the marina owner lets it stay there.

 

FB- Doug

 

 

I noticed the stuff around the join and thought -"duct tape - surely not"

 

fek.... it is

 

genius

 

Bob Perry can learn a thing or two from this man

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Bob Perry can learn a thing or two from this man

 

I'm sure he could. We all could.

 

"Everyone should serve as an example to others." -- unknown

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On reading about this guys failure to be granted his PhD I noticed a snippet about how the committee viewed his low assessment of the voting publics intelligence as being too extreme.

 

Maybe he built and sold this POS to prove they were wrong.

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If he has actually sold it: the "Kiwi" buying it is going to Egypt to raise the money for two outboards?

 

You know when you advertise things you often get dodgy Africans (sorry for the ethnocentricity but it's how it goes) offering to buy it for delivery to somewhere exotic (like the Amazon?) and with lots of odd detail added to make it seem real.

 

The sting comes with either overpaying with a fake instrument and asking for the change, or in getting you somehow to pay something to release the funds from some bogus escrow account.

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this is a lemon

 

http://towndock.net/shippingnews/audacity

 

17341.jpgwher

 

-That- is a flaming hunk of excrement. Saw it up close, in person, the other day; more or less by accident since my friends boat was moored temporarily at the same marina. I cannot believe any sane person ("sane" even by today's lax standards) actually paid actual money for this ugly-ass abortion.

 

Pictures don't do it justice. It is laughably flimsy, all surfaces rough as a cob and blotchy, the best looking part of it is the duct tape covering the joints where the cross-arms are fastened (?) to the hull. It looks like the "designer" thinks the pictures of boats in Dr Seuss books are actually design plans. I am kind of surprised the marina owner lets it stay there.

 

FB- Doug

 

Is that outboard really going to wring the bracket right off when someone gives it some throttle, or did it just look that way in pix?

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this is a lemon

 

http://towndock.net/shippingnews/audacity

 

17341.jpgwher

 

-That- is a flaming hunk of excrement. Saw it up close, in person, the other day; more or less by accident since my friends boat was moored temporarily at the same marina. I cannot believe any sane person ("sane" even by today's lax standards) actually paid actual money for this ugly-ass abortion.

 

Pictures don't do it justice. It is laughably flimsy, all surfaces rough as a cob and blotchy, the best looking part of it is the duct tape covering the joints where the cross-arms are fastened (?) to the hull. It looks like the "designer" thinks the pictures of boats in Dr Seuss books are actually design plans. I am kind of surprised the marina owner lets it stay there.

 

FB- Doug

 

Is that outboard really going to wring the bracket right off when someone gives it some throttle, or did it just look that way in pix?

 

The outboard "brackets" were not in place when I saw it.

 

To be fair, I did not walk the 12~15 steps out of my way to take a closer look. What I saw from that distance and what my friend (knowledgeable sailor himself) said it looked like up REALLY close, it's worse than fuck-hideous.

 

But hey, at least it has curves; we've all seen several "original thinkers" lately designing and building boats when they can't figure out how to give a boat more shape than a milk carton.

 

FB- Doug

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Just thinking - the inverse of this discussion could be "Beautiful boats that are totally impractical"

 

These are the ones designed by real marine artists, but say - have 5'4" headroom, ( I'm 6'2" )

my favorite - a porta-potti under the forward berth ( nothing like the aroma of the 2am trip to waft up through the mattress

or a recently encountered 26ft racing yacht, with the huge daggerboard stuck up through the centre of the accommodation are, so you had to be Houdini to get to the forward berth. Why it pretended to have 'accommodation', I don't understand.

 

Was it Phil Bolger who said "The best type of boat is one you can sleep on overnight, or the one you can tow home with you"

 

I always preferred boats you could spend a bit of quality time on board.

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Just thinking - the inverse of this discussion could be "Beautiful boats that are totally impractical"

...

 

 

For that, I'd have to nominate the Ranger Tugs 21EC. It's a nice looking boat and they've done a lot with a little space in the cabin, but the entire cockpit (which is large due to fishing boat history of the hull) drains into the bilge. It's always one good thunderstorm plus a bilge pump failure from sinking.

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The guy with the Tri missed the best opportunity for his construction to be useful:

17366.jpg

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If he has actually sold it: the "Kiwi" buying it is going to Egypt to raise the money for two outboards?

....

 

It said the guy was doing business in Egypt and once he gets the money for a pair of 25's, he's off to do eco-tours of the Amazon or something.

 

Yeah, a bit dodgy.

 

At least he has in mind more adequate power for the boat. The builder envisioned a pair of 6 hp engines. There's no such thing as an electric start 6. I guess an orangutan might be able to swing out there and start that 6 hp hanging on the 2 x 4's, but I doubt I could. And I'm shaped more or less like an orangutan! No rudder. The maneuvering plan was to use the twin engines. And when one stalls in a tight space, get your pet monkey to swing down there really quick and fire it back up!

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If he has actually sold it: the "Kiwi" buying it is going to Egypt to raise the money for two outboards?

....

 

It said the guy was doing business in Egypt and once he gets the money for a pair of 25's, he's off to do eco-tours of the Amazon or something.

 

Yeah, a bit dodgy.

 

At least he has in mind more adequate power for the boat. The builder envisioned a pair of 6 hp engines. There's no such thing as an electric start 6. I guess an orangutan might be able to swing out there and start that 6 hp hanging on the 2 x 4's, but I doubt I could. And I'm shaped more or less like an orangutan! No rudder. The maneuvering plan was to use the twin engines. And when one stalls in a tight space, get your pet monkey to swing down there really quick and fire it back up!

 

Why not train the ape to swim in front of the boat with a towline as auxiliary power?

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Was that thing built in Anacortes? Certainly has the freeboard and the ugly to indicate it was.

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That could be the ugliest boat in the thread.

 

But since it's a work boat, it doesn't belong here. Boats with jobs compete in a different category with a whole different scale of ugly.

 

Bringing it here is like putting an NFL player in a high school game.

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This thread is about as much info as I could find:

 

http://www.trawlerphotos.co.uk/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=29716

From that thread:

 

Biggest , tonnage wise , under 10m registered length boat ever built I think. Terry Taylor ( had the Maureen June then Dorothy Gray and Glen Rose stern trawlers ) had her built as there was some loophole in the regulations up at Faroes that you could catch as much as you liked but had to be under 10m reg length. Not a success and had her wheelhouse stripped off and all the engines/gearboxes/props/rudders removed by MacDuff shipyard before the Good Design towed her to Shetland to be used as a feed barge

 

I bet the crew got caught in one good blow and refused to go to sea again.. <_<

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Didn't realize we were being so selective. Pardon my grit.

That's ok. It is truly ugly and it's fun to watch an NFL guy bust some high school heads. ;)

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