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boatboy194

Pocket crusiers

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Hey guys,

 

Ive been looking around for a pocket crusier under 23 ft, just to go out for a weekend and cruise around in for a weekend or night trip, mainly sailing on lake ontario, with being able to trailer to other places, any ideas??

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How many crew, where on Lake Ontario (are we talking dinking around the Thousand Islands or crossing from Oswego to Toronto) , level of experience, familiarity with the area?

 

Priorities?

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If you are really serious about trailering, you want a boat less than 2500lbs to keep under the 3500 limit for Class II hitch. Most light sedans are not up to that. You want a CB or swing keel that retracts completely into the hull. If you go camp-cruising in a light centerboarder, you may be able to keep under 2000lbs for Class I hitch.

 

The granddaddy of all boats for this purpose is the Catalina 22, but there are lots of others.

 

I personally don't like the shoal keel option. The boat sits that much higher on the trailer.

 

If you are more serious about cruising than about trailering, you might look for a Paceship PY-23 or the somewhat similar O'Day 23. (I think the O'day is closer to 3000lbs).

 

If you want exciting sailing performance, you want a 600lbs cb-er, and a tent, a mattress, and camp stove.

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I sailed my Precision 23 to Duck Island from the American side a couple summers ago. Catalina 22s are a standard sort of trailer sailor-- and they are plenty of old ass ones around-- dirt cheap.

 

You'll find the crux is finding a trailer, rather than a trailer sailor.

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Here's a 21' er I drew for myself when I was bored and dreaming.

 

That is a really cool design.

Didn't one get built?

Or was that another small boat custom designed for a client?

I'm doing to go look for the thread that followed the design process....lots of great 3D renderings as I remember.

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Family:

No, it did not get built. Essentially it was my attempt to take all the features of my current boat at the time and reduce LOA while not giving up on any comfort and adding some extra performance. It was just a fun exersize in design done for fun. It was another WLYDO project.

post-2980-0-44153200-1353430948_thumb.jpg

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It helps to refine the criteria a bit... how many people? Where do you fit in the 'comfort vs camping' scale? Or on the 'comfort vs speed' scale? Will you ever race? What's your budget?

 

How about a Left Coast Dart? That's the fast but roughing it end of the scale, but it would trailer well.

(Then again, you could probably get Bob's design built for about the same price.)

 

A West Wright Potter? Comfort over speed. Not sure I'm recommending that, just trying to point out that there is a big range.

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Family:

No, it did not get built. Essentially it was my attempt to take all the features of my current boat at the time and reduce LOA while not giving up on any comfort and adding some extra performance. It was just a fun exersize in design done for fun. It was another WLYDO project.

 

I'm begining to remember some details now:

Cool guitar storage area

Issues on traveler at transom with tiller split mainsheet blocks at transom corners?

Bridgedeck traveler?

 

No outboard cuz the brackets are fugly

Gotta find that thread---

Looking now.

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Here is layout B without the guitar stowage. If you are interested I can post that layout later.

Obviously there no effort made to make the head private. This was a boart designed for me and I use the rail or a bucket as much as I can.

post-2980-0-85170100-1353438129_thumb.jpg

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Budget will be your main factor. Then performance vs say comfort etc.

 

What are you towing it with small car or midsized SUV/truck? That plays a role also.

 

I just read some micro cruising blogs not long ago solo guys having piles of fun sailing 17-23foot boats doing multi day adventures etc. Some of the popular boats for those guys seem to be the Compac Catboats - the small precision mini cruisers some home built rigs etc.

 

U20's have been used for micro cruising but it is far more on the performance side of things compared to the boats listed above. I raced and owned a U20 for a very long time Fantastic boat - however if my primary goal was comfy low stress micro cruising and exploring thin water the vertical lift keel wouldn't be ideal on the U20 and the cockpit not having coamings would be another downer. With some creative design and money the rest could be sorted out regarding sail cuts - reefing options and cockpit shade or canvas tossed over the boom etc.

 

For ultra cheap the Catalina 22 is a hard one to ignore I've seen solid clean hulls in decent shape sell for $1200 trailers might need to be replaced but it leaves plenty of room in the budget to fit it out and make it a nice comfy micro cruiser.

 

Wanting a fun rig to go exploring do overnights etc - a swing keel would be my preference. A cockpit with seat backs, awning of some type over the cockpit or ability to have one - cozy interior - a hull and rig set up that can be depowered to keep things calm and controlled if the weather goes to crap. From what I've seen the compac rigs with the hinged mast are an ideal package in many ways.

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Also a boat with a few storage spots built into it offers more practical micro cruiser use vs a hull like the U20 where you need to create stowage options given outside of the rear under cockpit locker it doesn't have built in lockers.

 

The ability to have ground tackle stowed in its own locker is a nice thing vs say a canvas bag tossed in the corner of the cabin some place.

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In this size range, consider a multihull.

 

Farrier F-22 (...when available)

Corsair Dash 750

Corsair 24 mk-II

Corsair 24 mk-1

 

Pluses:

-super easy to trailer

-no keel, so easily beachable (sp?)

-wing nets add significant extra deck space (a BIG plus in this size range)

-extra speed increases cruising range

 

Minuses:

-higher cost

-smaller interior space

 

Cheers!!!

 

-MH

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Here is layout B without the guitar stowage. If you are interested I can post that layout later.

Obviously there no effort made to make the head private. This was a boart designed for me and I use the rail or a bucket as much as I can.

 

And to think, he did this "for fun". Imagine what happens when he's serious.

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In this size range, consider a multihull.

 

Farrier F-22 (...when available)

Corsair Dash 750

Corsair 24 mk-II

Corsair 24 mk-1

 

Pluses:

-super easy to trailer

-no keel, so easily beachable (sp?)

-wing nets add significant extra deck space (a BIG plus in this size range)

-extra speed increases cruising range

 

Minuses:

-higher cost

-smaller interior space

 

Cheers!!!

 

-MH

 

Or buy a T-Gull 23. All the benefits of the above plus much lower price.

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If any of my really good friends came to me and said they wanted to get a trailer sailer I would say "Don't do it. You will end up hating the trailering part of it, it takes time to set up and break down, it probably won't sail that well, you'll have to maintain the trailer as well as the boat, pay registration and insurance on both as well as have to find a place to store the boat & trailer when it's not in the water which will be most of the time. Plus you'll end up with a boat that is smaller than what you really want. You are better off driving to somewhere & chartering a really nice boat. I mean you can get a small boat but can charter a much nicer boat for the same amount and have none of the maintenance costs or time consuming issues. Most trailer sailers end up on a mooring or unused and covered in leaves in a corner of the yard."

 

There is a guy in my marina with a really well maintained Ericson 29. He might take 1500 for it. Find a good boat & trailer for as much. Go ahead.

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Very long list of interesting pocket cruisers

http://www.sailhavas..._Attending.html

 

That is an interesting list... most of the ones that traveled were smaller. Both of the Santana 23D's were from there, I would not serioously recommend it to somebody wanting to trailer a boat -unless- they really wanted performance+cheap because getting the mast up & down is a major undertaking.

 

 

 

IMHO the early 1990s Hunter 19 and Hunter 23.5 (later the Hunter 240, same boat) are the best -trailerable- pocket cruisers, except that their build quality is (cough cough) not very good. We owned an H19 for almost ten years and trailered to almost every sailable body of water east of the Mississippi. It was very comfortable, astoundingly so for it's size, it was easy to rig & launch & recover, and the sailing performance matched much bigger boats. Truly a great design, a shame it hasn't been picked up or copied by somebody else.

 

Usually when somebody says "easy to trailer" they either mean something like a Sunfish, or they mean it takes a skilled engineering crew 1/2 day to get rigged. The Catalina 22 is a classic example... the mast weighs a ton and a rig that size does not need double lowers. I have seen people make serious claims that a 4+ft draft keelboat is "easy to trailer."

 

If any of my really good friends came to me and said they wanted to get a trailer sailer I would say "Don't do it. You will end up hating the trailering part of it, it takes time to set up and break down... ...."

 

Yep, exactly. That's because so so so many boats are "easy to trailer" in all but actual practice. Most are an outright PITA and this is excused because it's claimed to be necessary to do it that way... but it isn't.

 

This is why it's important to prioritize. For boats (as with much else in life) excellence in one area is compensated for by crappiness in another area. If it were possible to have a boat that was swift, comfortable, and cheap, then we'd only need one kind.

 

There is a guy in my marina with a really well maintained Ericson 29. He might take 1500 for it. Find a good boat & trailer for as much. Go ahead.

 

Well there's the "cheap" part of the equation...

B)

 

FB- Doug

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...the mast weighs a ton...

 

The Catalina 22 mast is a smaller extrusion that the Capri 22 mast, which illustrates a point. Mast size goes up with sail area, of course, but also with the stability of the boat. It's not just displacement. The Cat 22 and the Capri 22 weigh about the same. Multihulls with their very high initial stability have very sturdy masts.

 

It's possible to engineer systems that make stepping the mast not too hard. The Macgreagor has a system, I believe. But with most boats, you are on your own.

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Very long list of interesting pocket cruisers

http://www.sailhavas..._Attending.html

 

That is an interesting list... most of the ones that traveled were smaller. Both of the Santana 23D's were from there, I would not serioously recommend it to somebody wanting to trailer a boat -unless- they really wanted performance+cheap because getting the mast up & down is a major undertaking.

 

 

 

IMHO the early 1990s Hunter 19 and Hunter 23.5 (later the Hunter 240, same boat) are the best -trailerable- pocket cruisers, except that their build quality is (cough cough) not very good. We owned an H19 for almost ten years and trailered to almost every sailable body of water east of the Mississippi. It was very comfortable, astoundingly so for it's size, it was easy to rig & launch & recover, and the sailing performance matched much bigger boats. Truly a great design, a shame it hasn't been picked up or copied by somebody else.

 

Usually when somebody says "easy to trailer" they either mean something like a Sunfish, or they mean it takes a skilled engineering crew 1/2 day to get rigged. The Catalina 22 is a classic example... the mast weighs a ton and a rig that size does not need double lowers. I have seen people make serious claims that a 4+ft draft keelboat is "easy to trailer."

 

If any of my really good friends came to me and said they wanted to get a trailer sailer I would say "Don't do it. You will end up hating the trailering part of it, it takes time to set up and break down... ...."

 

Yep, exactly. That's because so so so many boats are "easy to trailer" in all but actual practice. Most are an outright PITA and this is excused because it's claimed to be necessary to do it that way... but it isn't.

 

This is why it's important to prioritize. For boats (as with much else in life) excellence in one area is compensated for by crappiness in another area. If it were possible to have a boat that was swift, comfortable, and cheap, then we'd only need one kind.

 

There is a guy in my marina with a really well maintained Ericson 29. He might take 1500 for it. Find a good boat & trailer for as much. Go ahead.

 

Well there's the "cheap" part of the equation...

B)

 

FB- Doug

 

U20 took me solo hustling it about 40 minutes to rig from road to water ready. If you have time and no kids to chase around etc then its not too bad. However the carbon mast I switched to was FAR FAR FAR easier on my back setting it up vs the Aluminum rig. The tip up rig the Suncat 17 and 20 has just seems so damn easy that would be my preference if I were looking for a easily trailered type boat I would take exploring all over the place on the road and in the water. Time from trailer to water would be pretty quick.

 

Also water depth needed to float the hull is kinda a big deal if your exploring vs going to known ramps. A rig that sits low and flat on the trailer both is FAR FAR easier to launch - and tow making for a very different experience and pattern of use over a boat that sits up high that both is more challenging to haul and takes more effort to launch.

 

I also think 20ft is the max size I would want from 20ft and up everything just gets larger, heavier and more complicated. The Beneteau 210 is very RARE in the US never really sold here but popular in Europe. Not light your tow rig would need to be a good size. A hull with basic gear tipping in around 1300lbs or so not packed for cruising you can easily tow with cars like the Subaru Outback etc. Or easily tow with midsized pickup sporting a small camper for your shore based stays etc.

 

If you plan on lots of towing consider tow vehicle comfort - size and fuel cost. I could see my self doing FAR FAR FAR more trips if the tow car posted decent mileage - is not a massive undertaking to park and is fairly comfy. This pretty much leaves out any full sized trucks due to mileage. Midsized fairly fuel efficient V6 vehicles being the primary tow vehicle target will have some impact on what you want hitched to the back of it.

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Consider Graham Byrnes' epoxy/plywood designs like the Belhaven 19, Core Sound 20, etc.

sail%20plan.jpg

 

 

They are designed for amateur build but some are being built by small shops. I've been noodling about tackling the Core Sound 17 and have sailed one a bit. Interesting idea. The masts are freestanding on tabernacles for easy raising. For a real vest pocket cruiser, Chesapeake Light Craft has an outrageously cool PocketShip that's 15 feet.

 

SeatedFiguresBIG2.jpg

These are all kit or plan boats, but there is a secondary market as well as builders doing them.

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If I were single - and looking to do lots of exploring and pocket cruising. This is probably the set up I would go with

 

Toyota or Nissan mid sized v6 6ft bed 4x4 probably Manual Transmission keep it basic. Very basic - 4x4 off road pop up cab over camper with heater!- AKA sleeping and basic crash pad for road trips which is light and fairly low impact on the truck.

 

The Suncat 17 - or even one of the home built pocket rigs if I found one used and well built with some cool features etc.

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Boatboy I am sure that you know most of this stuff but I thought I would share it with everyone else.

 

- DRAFT - The ideal boat for Lake Ontario needs to be capable of EXTREME shallow water draft. Too many bays are no longer dredged. Further there are places where you can tie the boat up and walk ashore but these are no longer dredged either.

- MAST - If you are able to lower the mast while underway this MIGHT be useful. There are some entrances that either now have a bridge or still have electrical cables at the entrance.

- UNDERWATER PROTECTION - You will hit somethiing at some point. In the Islands odds are that it will be a rock. You may go the wrong way, too close or drift from your mooring / anchor. Who knows! But it will happen. There are a lot of logs in the spring. So if you look at the multihulls ask what happens if you put a hole in the boat. Usually a trimaran will not sink because the other two hulls stay dry. BUT ask. I kinda flinch because the way to right many small trimarans is to flood one of the outside hulls if the boat turtles.

 

 

But if that is too expensive then see what else is out there. Cost plays a huge part here. How much do you want to spend. There is a lift keel Andrews 28 asking $108K in the SA classifieds. There are numerous Catalina 22's on the various Ontario craigslists. Those Ontario boats usually have run their engines in only fresh water.

 

A folding very reliable Farrier design is the absolutely best bet. My big issue with the monohull boats of this type is that they are so damn slow. So you really do not have much of a choice but to tow the boat to where you are going to sail.

 

Another problem about this type of boat is that because it is small the issue of a dinghy, Rib, inflatable is something to consider. A blow up inflatable with oars will work. Just figure on how you are going to blow it up and/or tow it (storage!!!)

 

Canada - Oh you need to check about the head and holding tank regulations. You can buy a Catalina 22 real cheap and then try to go to Canada and the fixes to make the boat legal could cost as much as the boat.

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- DRAFT - The ideal boat for Lake Ontario needs to be capable of EXTREME shallow water draft. Too many bays are no longer dredged. Further there are places where you can tie the boat up and walk ashore but these are no longer dredged either.

- MAST - If you are able to lower the mast while underway this MIGHT be useful. There are some entrances that either now have a bridge or still have electrical cables at the entrance.

- UNDERWATER PROTECTION - You will hit somethiing at some point. In the Islands odds are that it will be a rock. You may go the wrong way, too close or drift from your mooring / anchor. Who knows! But it will happen. There are a lot of logs in the spring. So if you look at the multihulls ask what happens if you put a hole in the boat. Usually a trimaran will not sink because the other two hulls stay dry. BUT ask. I kinda flinch because the way to right many small trimarans is to flood one of the outside hulls if the boat turtles.

 

 

But if that is too expensive then see what else is out there. Cost plays a huge part here. How much do you want to spend. There is a lift keel Andrews 28 asking $108K in the SA classifieds. There are numerous Catalina 22's on the various Ontario craigslists. Those Ontario boats usually have run their engines in only fresh water.

 

A folding very reliable Farrier design is the absolutely best bet. My big issue with the monohull boats of this type is that they are so damn slow. So you really do not have much of a choice but to tow the boat to where you are going to sail.

 

Even faster boats - towing at 55mph to roughly where you want to be is always quicker unless of course there are no roads. I'm sure if boats were made paper thin and hitting hard things sunk them on a regular basis your argument about that would make sense. It doesn't One thing nice about small light boats - they have less mass ie weight driving them into hard objects and unless your buying an ultra light racing machine they are all built pretty solid regarding hull strength.

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How handy are you?

 

I think the Catalina 22, Precison21 and Compac 19 or 23 are all good choices. If you have the time, space and minimal skills to homebuild, you might want to consider the Weekender. It will draw attention, and has the added benefit of not having a centerboard at all. I know a guy that was thinking about building them, but you know the old addage. "How do you make a small fortune in the boatbuilding industry? Start with a large one."

 

TrentsWeekender-5.jpg

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Consider a Beneteau 210. They come up on the used market quite a bit at around $8K - $15K

 

http://features.boat...ut-trailerable/

 

http://first210.org

 

Lots of room inside and easy to trailer.

 

+1 on the Catalina 22 too.

 

Also check out the Beneteau First 235. Lots of room and even a private head. Get the shoal draft if you want to trailer.

 

You have lots of choices in this thread to look into!

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Here is layout B without the guitar stowage. If you are interested I can post that layout later.

Obviously there no effort made to make the head private. This was a boart designed for me and I use the rail or a bucket as much as I can.

 

I found the old thread with help on CA and have bumped it.

I spent too much time today cruising the thread again and thoroughly enjoyed it!

If you could post the latest versions of the interior, rig and hull there it would be great.

Gotta figure out a way to build or have someone build this critter.

With the deep keel it's much more of a shorthanded vessel.

If you look at the Elan210 and other light Euro boats in this range they require too many bodies to make them go.

I can imagine sailing yours in a blow with an asym single handed.

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Can a U20 lift its keel and turn on the engine. Then a hundred yards latter drop the keel?

 

If so by god you may have a great pocket cruiser for Ontario. But their is still a shit load of rocks! Other than places like Maine I have never seen so many rocks.

 

 

But hitting a log at 14 knots in a Farrier design would concern me so I would ask someone. That is my advice....ask someone who knows about Farrier designs if you end up with a hole in it. Some guy name Farrier who hangs out on Multihull anarchy might have the answer.

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Can a U20 lift its keel and turn on the engine. Then a hundred yards latter drop the keel?

 

If so by god you may have a great pocket cruiser for Ontario. But their is still a shit load of rocks! Other than places like Maine I have never seen so many rocks.

 

 

But hitting a log at 14 knots in a Farrier design would concern me so I would ask someone. That is my advice....ask someone who knows about Farrier designs if you end up with a hole in it. Some guy name Farrier who hangs out on Multihull anarchy might have the answer.

 

U20's are flat bottomed and slick as all get out with keel up you can tow the hull behind the OB any minimal wind will have the hull swinging behind the OB as you motor backwards. The rookie U20 owners always try to motor forward with keel up will end up in trouble nearly every time.

 

Vertical lifting keels also do not fair well if they hit hard bottom objects like rocks. Vs swing keels can have a kick up safety and minimize damage to dings on the board vs - damaged keel bolts holding down a vertical keel like the U20.

Also vertical lifting keel takes some effort to lift even with the slick system the U20 has you need to set up the crane - knock the bolts loose and then crank it up - lowering is easier of course but the crane still needs to be taken down to sail etc. Vs centerboard rig you can raise the board quick - and drop it quick and even be rigged to sail with no real added stowage of lifting gear needed. All things that become apparent to you when you do solo cruises to strange ramps where you may find that these extra little steps make for a complicated and more stressful effort pending water conditions etc.

 

By the way hitting rocks and having heavy currents in the PNW is a big deal. Rocks aren't just in your neck of the woods.

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Beneteau 235

Best small cruiser and still modern looking

First producton boat bulilt with a plumb bow. ( Finot design)

check out the beneteau 235 website.

Seperate head and aft cabin. I owned one for yrs and still the best boat I have ever owned. I have a Figaro now and have had a G&S 3/4 ton andvarious othe sailboats over the past 30 yrs

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I'll say it again. Tremolino T -Gull. Trailer to water should be under an hour. Ive only luanched and retrieved once each so my time was very slow. Set up for trailer sailoring, no time.

 

Light weight. I tow it with all gear for a season with a Hyundai Azera. No problems at all.

 

Crash box for the dagger makes it very safe if you hit bottom. Kick up rudder for easy beaching.

 

High speed, see more in less time.

 

Coffin style forward and aft cabins. Forward large emought to sleep and use the head. Aft sleep only. If its nice out use the 17x7 foot tramps and cockpit.

 

With the right sail plan (which I don't presently have) easily singlehanded.

 

There a good size network online (mostly focused on the Tremolino).

 

Simple to own, designed well and the manufacturing albeit not a J Boat quality if very solid.

 

A very good example for under $15k.

 

 

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And to think, he did this "for fun". Imagine what happens when he's serious.

 

like this :

post-11311-0-85328400-1353458888_thumb.jpg

 

or this:

 

post-11311-0-42301600-1353458914_thumb.jpg

 

or this:

post-11311-0-17379200-1353458937_thumb.jpg

 

or this:

post-11311-0-44538700-1353458957_thumb.jpg

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...

 

Vertical lifting keels also do not fair well if they hit hard bottom objects like rocks. Vs swing keels can have a kick up safety and minimize damage to dings on the board vs - damaged keel bolts holding down a vertical keel like the U20.

...

 

Umm... what exactly does fare well hitting rocks at high speed? This is one of those trade-offs. Something designed & built to be run over by a bulldozer will obviously not be opimized for best comfort, performance, ease of use, etc etc.

 

I have sailed a number of lift or dagger-keelers including my current boat. Running aground or hitting stuff is not good but it's no more problem than with a fixed fin keel... much less if anything. I did some repairs to my Santana 23 daggerboard (link) but the boat got us home just fine, less of a PITA than many things I can think of. For boats that are designed for a higher degree of performance that is by far the most common configuration.

 

FB- Doug

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Doug - Having done repairs on the U20 related to grounding even a fairly soft one no lifting keels are not built to be pushed from the bottom up while locked down. The structural damage to the keel box is different than fixing dings to a center board which I have done also.

 

And if your sailing in thin water - you watch your speed of course plenty of people go full tilt boogie till they pile into the shallows but most people with half a brain will take it slow.

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I watch Japanese movies for fun.

 

Left on my own I think I can design some pretty perky boats.

But I have to put food on the table and mind you I have put some nice food on the table over the last 35 years. So I draw what the clients want. I'm a whore and a very good one and I enjoy my work.

 

But, just like in those western movies the saloon gal, call her Miss Kitty, has a special cowboy and she treats him very special. I have clients like that.

 

So there.

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If any of my really good friends came to me and said they wanted to get a trailer sailer I would say "Don't do it. You will end up hating the trailering part of it, it takes time to set up and break down, it probably won't sail that well, you'll have to maintain the trailer as well as the boat, pay registration and insurance on both as well as have to find a place to store the boat & trailer when it's not in the water which will be most of the time. Plus you'll end up with a boat that is smaller than what you really want. You are better off driving to somewhere & chartering a really nice boat. I mean you can get a small boat but can charter a much nicer boat for the same amount and have none of the maintenance costs or time consuming issues. Most trailer sailers end up on a mooring or unused and covered in leaves in a corner of the yard."

 

There is a guy in my marina with a really well maintained Ericson 29. He might take 1500 for it. Find a good boat & trailer for as much. Go ahead.

 

Many many thousands of people will disagree with you. That's probably why there are so many of them - more than any other 'class' of boat.

Small trailerable boats have provided more sailing pleasure than any other boats I've owned or sailed on - on a tight budget too which is a bonus for most people.

If it's a hassle to rig - you aren't doing it right.

If it's a hassle to tow - you may not be a good driver anyway?

If a trailer is set up properly - the boat goes on and off with ease.

 

Charter? If you can afford to charter, you probably won't even think of a small boat as an option. Even then, you could go so many more places with a trailerable boat than you can if you're limited to yacht charter venues. Like every weekend to a new lake for example. Try that with chartering, especially on a working man's budget.

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You'll find the crux is finding a trailer, rather than a trailer sailor.

I have never understood why so many people buy trailerable boats then sell the trailer... Seriously.

 

Come over to the dark side- try a little folding multihull.

 

BEST advice yet!

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How handy are you?

 

I think the Catalina 22, Precison21 and Compac 19 or 23 are all good choices. If you have the time, space and minimal skills to homebuild, you might want to consider the Weekender. It will draw attention, and has the added benefit of not having a centerboard at all. I know a guy that was thinking about building them, but you know the old addage. "How do you make a small fortune in the boatbuilding industry? Start with a large one."

 

TrentsWeekender-5.jpg

 

Do I know you?

I know that marina. And I've seen that boat...

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I'll say it again. Tremolino T -Gull. Trailer to water should be under an hour. Ive only luanched and retrieved once each so my time was very slow. Set up for trailer sailoring, no time.

 

Light weight. I tow it with all gear for a season with a Hyundai Azera. No problems at all.

 

Crash box for the dagger makes it very safe if you hit bottom. Kick up rudder for easy beaching.

 

High speed, see more in less time.

 

Coffin style forward and aft cabins. Forward large emought to sleep and use the head. Aft sleep only. If its nice out use the 17x7 foot tramps and cockpit.

 

With the right sail plan (which I don't presently have) easily singlehanded.

 

There a good size network online (mostly focused on the Tremolino).

 

Simple to own, designed well and the manufacturing albeit not a J Boat quality if very solid.

 

A very good example for under $15k.

 

Indeed. Except for the cruising part. Far too confining for me. I wouldn't even weekend on it. We call the cabins "coffins" and they are useful for stowing sails, pfds, foulies, and the food and beer coolers. Mostly the coolers...

 

To the OP - have a look at the Corsair 24.

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If any of my really good friends came to me and said they wanted to get a trailer sailer I would say "Don't do it. You will end up hating the trailering part of it, it takes time to set up and break down, it probably won't sail that well, you'll have to maintain the trailer as well as the boat, pay registration and insurance on both as well as have to find a place to store the boat & trailer when it's not in the water which will be most of the time. Plus you'll end up with a boat that is smaller than what you really want. You are better off driving to somewhere & chartering a really nice boat. I mean you can get a small boat but can charter a much nicer boat for the same amount and have none of the maintenance costs or time consuming issues. Most trailer sailers end up on a mooring or unused and covered in leaves in a corner of the yard."

 

There is a guy in my marina with a really well maintained Ericson 29. He might take 1500 for it. Find a good boat & trailer for as much. Go ahead.

 

Many many thousands of people will disagree with you. That's probably why there are so many of them - more than any other 'class' of boat.

 

 

There may be thousands of them but I rarely ever see even one of them when I'm out sailing.

 

I think this is because most of them are sitting on flat tires on a rusted trailer in a corner of the yard covered in leaves because they are a pain to tow, set up, launch, sail, break down, tow again & store.

 

I know. I used to have one.

 

If you're gonna trailer get a laser.

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If any of my really good friends came to me and said they wanted to get a trailer sailer I would say "Don't do it. You will end up hating the trailering part of it, it takes time to set up and break down, it probably won't sail that well, you'll have to maintain the trailer as well as the boat, pay registration and insurance on both as well as have to find a place to store the boat & trailer when it's not in the water which will be most of the time. Plus you'll end up with a boat that is smaller than what you really want. You are better off driving to somewhere & chartering a really nice boat. I mean you can get a small boat but can charter a much nicer boat for the same amount and have none of the maintenance costs or time consuming issues. Most trailer sailers end up on a mooring or unused and covered in leaves in a corner of the yard."

 

There is a guy in my marina with a really well maintained Ericson 29. He might take 1500 for it. Find a good boat & trailer for as much. Go ahead.

 

Many many thousands of people will disagree with you. That's probably why there are so many of them - more than any other 'class' of boat.

 

 

There may be thousands of them but I rarely ever see even one of them when I'm out sailing.

 

I think this is because most of them are sitting on flat tires on a rusted trailer in a corner of the yard covered in leaves because they are a pain to tow, set up, launch, sail, break down, tow again & store.

 

I know. I used to have one.

 

If you're gonna trailer get a laser.

 

Question wafer when do you sail? Reading blogs about these micro cruiser guys. They tend to spend far more time on the water than the weekend sailors. Also there tends to be far far more small boats built and sold to non sailors. Making ut even more affordable to find one parked on flat tires. These guys tend to sail in social groups and do it during the week. Hence why us big boat types rarely see them.

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scamp0.jpg

 

SCAMP, it puts the pocket cruiser back in a pocket.

 

This is simply the slowest, most absurd boat that i can not help but actually want. It is just so damn cute while remaining capable and honestly easy to trailer. Kinda an "Old Man and the Sea" meets midlife crisis on a budget kinda boat. If you are going to go slow, might as well have a boat with personality.

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Thank you! that's one of the small boats I was thinking of but the grey matter refused to help.

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IMHO the early 1990s Hunter 19 and Hunter 23.5 (later the Hunter 240, same boat) are the best -trailerable- pocket cruisers, except that their build quality is (cough cough) not very good. We owned an H19 for almost ten years and trailered to almost every sailable body of water east of the Mississippi. It was very comfortable, astoundingly so for it's size, it was easy to rig & launch & recover, and the sailing performance matched much bigger boats. Truly a great design, a shame it hasn't been picked up or copied by somebody else

 

FB- Doug

 

Had an H19 for a couple of years after owning a Flying Scot for a couple of years. The H19 was fun with the kids as swimming was their main interest. They would otherwise refer to it as the stinky boat (the water ballast tank would become fetid). But then I discovered racing and promptly got rid of it. Plenty of potential, though and if I did it again I'd def go for the 240 or even the 260.

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Consider a Beneteau 210. They come up on the used market quite a bit at around $8K - $15K

 

http://features.boat...ut-trailerable/

 

http://first210.org

 

Lots of room inside and easy to trailer.

 

+1 on the Catalina 22 too.

Consider a Beneteau 210. They come up on the used market quite a bit at around $8K - $15K

 

http://features.boat...ut-trailerable/

 

http://first210.org

 

Lots of room inside and easy to trailer.

 

 

Also check out the Beneteau First 235. Lots of room and even a private head. Get the shoal draft if you want to trailer.

 

You have lots of choices in this thread to look into!

 

I like both those boats! Never neen a Beneteau fan, but for a trailerable pocket cruiser, I think those have a lot going for them.

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Come over to the dark side- try a little folding multihull.

 

This is something that shouldn't be dismissed and definitely worth consideration.

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Hey guys,

 

Ive been looking around for a pocket crusier under 23 ft, just to go out for a weekend and cruise around in for a weekend or night trip, mainly sailing on lake ontario, with being able to trailer to other places, any ideas??

 

The boat for doing that on Lake Ontario is the Shark. You have the option to trailer, dry sail, cruise, daysail, and it has the largest racing fleet on the lake to boot.

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Hobie Dog and Jetfuel are right. Beneteau First 235 is an excellent boat, sturdy AND responsive. I go for a few hundred miles each summer on Lake Michigan, all sorts of conditions, mostly singlehand.

In all fairness it is on the heavier side for trailering but with gin pole or V-poles mast can be rigged in 30 minutes.

http://www.beneteau235.com

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Hobot how could you? After we showed you "the way".

 

-jim lee

 

Jim, have I ever told you what a great boat the Dart is?

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And the Beneteau is designed to withstand the abuse of the French sailor.

Have seen them placed on a slipway, low tide they were dry, hight tide, it floated, and nobody watched that boat. Seen it rise and fall for 2 days ...

 

Etap, very nice quirky boats.

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scamp0.jpg

 

SCAMP, it puts the pocket cruiser back in a pocket.

 

This is simply the slowest, most absurd boat that i can not help but actually want. It is just so damn cute while remaining capable and honestly easy to trailer. Kinda an "Old Man and the Sea" meets midlife crisis on a budget kinda boat. If you are going to go slow, might as well have a boat with personality.

+1, plus you could always turbo her if you so desire:

Boat8-wr.jpg

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IMHO the early 1990s Hunter 19 and Hunter 23.5 (later the Hunter 240, same boat) are the best -trailerable- pocket cruisers, except that their build quality is (cough cough) not very good. We owned an H19 for almost ten years and trailered to almost every sailable body of water east of the Mississippi. It was very comfortable, astoundingly so for it's size, it was easy to rig & launch & recover, and the sailing performance matched much bigger boats. Truly a great design, a shame it hasn't been picked up or copied by somebody else

 

FB- Doug

 

Had an H19 for a couple of years after owning a Flying Scot for a couple of years. The H19 was fun with the kids as swimming was their main interest. They would otherwise refer to it as the stinky boat (the water ballast tank would become fetid). But then I discovered racing and promptly got rid of it. Plenty of potential, though and if I did it again I'd def go for the 240 or even the 260

 

Never had a problem with the water ballast tank going rank. Wonder what happened there. The only problem we had was forgetting to fill it... once... boat went surprisingly fas downwind but when we turned the corner it just wanted to lay on it's side. Didn't get the sails wet though fortunately, just a bit startling and tumbled the luggage around the cabin.

 

Bigger trailerables are nice in theory but as soon as you have to back it in somewhere tight, or maneuver in a crowded gas station off a busy highway... or when you're putting the rig up & down...you'll want a smaller one. The Hunter 240 has the best rig/unrig system I've seen for a boat it's size, and it is quite roomy. For small boats the Com-Pacs are the schnizzle but they are also slow boats.

 

Most small cruisers are copies of big boats. They want to make it look yacht-y and making the proportions & dimensions 'work' for the human are secondary. Their lack of comfort reflects this. The Hunter 19 had a more comfortable cockpit than most 30-footers and rigging it was a 15-minute one-hand job... not kidding, my cousin who thought trailering a boat was a stupid idea timed us the first time he sailed with us, a little over 12 minutes from pulling to a stop in the parking lot to stepping aboard ready to sail. That was with my wife helping and putting down my beer for a couple of bits.

 

I would really like to check out the Etaps. They look like great little boats.

 

Also check on the Beneteau 210 and 235. The 235 is a bit bulky to trailer but it's quite a good sailer and very roomy. When we were shopping for a trailersailer (early 1990s) the Hunter water-ballast boats and the Beneteau F210 had just come out. I lobbied for the Benny but my wife did not like the overall layout as much... and in retrospect, while the B210 would outsail the H19 easily and be just as nice a couples weekender, I can't see spending a week on it with a dog or having dinner for 4 aboard, like we did with the Hunter.

 

post-30927-0-07707700-1353519558_thumb.jpg

 

I'm not kidding about any of this. Having owned a Hunter would be my secret shame if I had enough of a sense of shame to keep it a secret

;)

 

FB- Doug

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scamp0.jpg

 

SCAMP, it puts the pocket cruiser back in a pocket.

 

This is simply the slowest, most absurd boat that i can not help but actually want. It is just so damn cute while remaining capable and honestly easy to trailer. Kinda an "Old Man and the Sea" meets midlife crisis on a budget kinda boat. If you are going to go slow, might as well have a boat with personality.

 

I think nobody could say it's not actually pretty awesome:

 

SCAMP.jpg

 

 

And then of course there's still boats like Chesapeake Light Craft's PocketShip (video

) or Phil Bolger's Micro, or if you wanna go craaaaazy: Chat Noir or the Souriceau (yes, yes, I hear your esthetically inclined hearts cry!).

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IMHO the early 1990s Hunter 19 and Hunter 23.5 (later the Hunter 240, same boat) are the best -trailerable- pocket cruisers, except that their build quality is (cough cough) not very good. We owned an H19 for almost ten years and trailered to almost every sailable body of water east of the Mississippi. It was very comfortable, astoundingly so for it's size, it was easy to rig & launch & recover, and the sailing performance matched much bigger boats. Truly a great design, a shame it hasn't been picked up or copied by somebody else

 

FB- Doug

 

Had an H19 for a couple of years after owning a Flying Scot for a couple of years. The H19 was fun with the kids as swimming was their main interest. They would otherwise refer to it as the stinky boat (the water ballast tank would become fetid). But then I discovered racing and promptly got rid of it. Plenty of potential, though and if I did it again I'd def go for the 240 or even the 260

 

Never had a problem with the water ballast tank going rank. Wonder what happened there. The only problem we had was forgetting to fill it... once... boat went surprisingly fas downwind but when we turned the corner it just wanted to lay on it's side. Didn't get the sails wet though fortunately, just a bit startling and tumbled the luggage around the cabin.

 

Bigger trailerables are nice in theory but as soon as you have to back it in somewhere tight, or maneuver in a crowded gas station off a busy highway... or when you're putting the rig up & down...you'll want a smaller one. The Hunter 240 has the best rig/unrig system I've seen for a boat it's size, and it is quite roomy. For small boats the Com-Pacs are the schnizzle but they are also slow boats.

 

Most small cruisers are copies of big boats. They want to make it look yacht-y and making the proportions & dimensions 'work' for the human are secondary. Their lack of comfort reflects this. The Hunter 19 had a more comfortable cockpit than most 30-footers and rigging it was a 15-minute one-hand job... not kidding, my cousin who thought trailering a boat was a stupid idea timed us the first time he sailed with us, a little over 12 minutes from pulling to a stop in the parking lot to stepping aboard ready to sail. That was with my wife helping and putting down my beer for a couple of bits.

 

I would really like to check out the Etaps. They look like great little boats.

 

Also check on the Beneteau 210 and 235. The 235 is a bit bulky to trailer but it's quite a good sailer and very roomy. When we were shopping for a trailersailer (early 1990s) the Hunter water-ballast boats and the Beneteau F210 had just come out. I lobbied for the Benny but my wife did not like the overall layout as much... and in retrospect, while the B210 would outsail the H19 easily and be just as nice a couples weekender, I can't see spending a week on it with a dog or having dinner for 4 aboard, like we did with the Hunter.

 

post-30927-0-07707700-1353519558_thumb.jpg

 

I'm not kidding about any of this. Having owned a Hunter would be my secret shame if I had enough of a sense of shame to keep it a secret

;)/>

 

FB- Doug

I should clarify: the seawater in the tank would really stink if I didn't put bleach in it.

and reconsidering the last point, the only trailerable I think I'd get into next would also have be a racing boat...

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scamp0.jpg

 

SCAMP, it puts the pocket cruiser back in a pocket.

 

This is simply the slowest, most absurd boat that i can not help but actually want. It is just so damn cute while remaining capable and honestly easy to trailer. Kinda an "Old Man and the Sea" meets midlife crisis on a budget kinda boat. If you are going to go slow, might as well have a boat with personality.

+1, plus you could always turbo her if you so desire:

Boat8-wr.jpg

 

Gizmo is a Tread Lightly which is a different design from SCAMP, and about a foot longer. Gizmo was built with a shorter house than the TL plans call for.

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How handy are you?

 

I think the Catalina 22, Precison21 and Compac 19 or 23 are all good choices. If you have the time, space and minimal skills to homebuild, you might want to consider the Weekender. It will draw attention, and has the added benefit of not having a centerboard at all. I know a guy that was thinking about building them, but you know the old addage. "How do you make a small fortune in the boatbuilding industry? Start with a large one."

 

TrentsWeekender-5.jpg

 

Do I know you?

I know that marina. And I've seen that boat...

Nah, although it would be nice to make your acquaintence. This is just a picture I found on a web search. I met a guy several years ago in Louisiana that had one of these things, and it's been sort of stuck in my head ever since.

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Hey guys,

 

Ive been looking around for a pocket crusier under 23 ft, just to go out for a weekend and cruise around in for a weekend or night trip, mainly sailing on lake ontario, with being able to trailer to other places, any ideas??

 

Try these guys:

 

http://bbs.trailersailor.com/forums/trailersailor/index.cgi

 

A very nice bunch, some of them have been posting since the 90's and done some serous cruising in trailer boats.

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Some really fun pocket cruising blog stories to read -

http://smallcraftadvisor.com/our-blog/

Fetch is a small wood micro cruiser and the owner is a main writer for Small Craft Advisor and has posted several of his cruises from the west coast to the great lakes - really fun to read his adventures and about the other small micro cruiser folks he meets up with and the places they go exploring.

 

Check out this one sounds like its along the lines of what your thinking

Fetch faces the north Channel - http://smallcraftadvisor.com/our-blog/?p=3388

He has cruised large sections of the Great lakes sounds like a fantastic place to do micro cruising.

After reading this one I started researching the little 21ft diesel tug which sounds like a great little micro adventure rig also.

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I sailed my Precision 23 to Duck Island from the American side a couple summers ago. ...

 

You'll find the crux is finding a trailer, rather than a trailer sailor.

 

Speaking of trailers, a Precision 21 is a Precision 23 with two feet added to the middle of the boat. The cockpits are identical. Big difference: P-21 = 3000 lbs loaded on the trailer = 1 axle with no brakes. P-23 rides on a double axle trailer with brakes. A lot more trailer expense and maintenance for a bit larger cabin.

 

Both need a little help to be really trailerable.

 

 

Usually when somebody says "easy to trailer" they either mean something like a Sunfish, or they mean it takes a skilled engineering crew 1/2 day to get rigged. ...

 

FB- Doug

 

 

My record is 39 seconds, but I was unaware that I was being timed and am sure I could trim some time off of it. Plus, our fleet has a really cool national championship regatta. ;)

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My humble opinion is that it can be called "pocket cruiser" a yacht that has a weight of less than 800 - 1000 kg (real), which can be trailered with a car trailer with a total mass up to 1300 - 1500 kg, up to 20 - 21 feet.

Infact:

Boat: 800 kg

Trailer: 350 kg

Materials: 150 kg

Tolerance: 10%

Total: 1430 kg

 

Everything that comes after .... a big car, costs, time of equipping the boat, time of use ... have to think about the choice of a bigger boat mooring, charter or ownweship.

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... ...

Usually when somebody says "easy to trailer" they either mean something like a Sunfish, or they mean it takes a skilled engineering crew 1/2 day to get rigged. ...

 

 

 

My record is 39 seconds, but I was unaware that I was being timed and am sure I could trim some time off of it. Plus, our fleet has a really cool national championship regatta. ;)

 

There's a good data point for anyone who wants to plot the function of sailing performance /rig time. The Hunter 19 takes about 12 minutes and can (probably) outsil a Sun-Cat (at least to windward). A J-24 takes at least 3 skilled plus one or two unskilled for muscle, anywhere from 3 hours to 3 days to get rigged ready to sail; this is a good point for the upper end of the performance scale since very few monohull trailersailers will even be able to keep within sight of one. The Santana 23 takes 2 strong & skilled guys about 3 hours, a third set of muscles is useful for part of it. Then you have boats like the Sea Pearl 28 which has beautifully engineered & built carbon fiber tip-up masts in pivoting tabernacles, very similar to the Sun Cat but with a lot more horsepower... just costs a lot more and you have to like the rest of the boat (I personally do not).

 

But people are funny. I was very interested in a thing called a Goat Island Skiff for a while. Nice flatiron hull, good proportions for sailing, not bad for rowing either. Standing lug main should be pretty efficient and also quick to set up. However the guys I met who had them were rather fussbudget-y and not very good sailors, so it was impossible to get any useful data about rigging time & sailing performance.

 

I also used to know a man who had a nice little classic sloop, he loved the fact that it took several hours to get the gaff & the luff lacings & parrels rigged because that way he didn't feel hurried, and it gave him lots of time to chat with admirers in the parking lot.

 

Anyway, there are more different kinds of boats than most of us could dream up in a hundred years. Most of them have something exceptional, or at least pretty darn good, to recommend them. For many people, the choice boils down to what their next-door-neighbor is selling cheap.

 

FB- Doug

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