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      A Few Simple Rules   05/22/2017

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      Moderation Team Change   06/16/2017

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ctutmark

Pogo 3

93 posts in this topic

That could be either a Pogo3 or an Mk3 of the C40? I'd wager that Structures might not really want to get back into building these small boats... but then again I might be wrong. A P3 would certainly draw a lot of interest!

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Part of what got me thinking it was a mini was who some of the comments came from, a certain past CM president included

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Part of what got me thinking it was a mini was who some of the comments came from, a certain past CM president included

 

But as they're all left guessing just the same we might have to wait until the Salon, I suppose. It would be the logical place to announce something of that sort.

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So Andreas Lindlahr just posted on Facebook that it's indeed about the Pogo 3. Let's trust that man, he knows what he's talking about.

 

Oh my. :ph34r:

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So Andreas Lindlahr just posted on Facebook that it's indeed about the Pogo 3. Let's trust that man, he knows what he's talking about.

 

Oh my. :ph34r:

 

Plus he takes some great pics/videos.

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So Andreas Lindlahr just posted on Facebook that it's indeed about the Pogo 3. Let's trust that man, he knows what he's talking about.

 

Oh my. :ph34r:

 

Plus he takes some great pics/videos.

 

Sure that.

 

And Structures decided to tease us more: http://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=10151243622552347&id=263630182346

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Scow version?

 

Very unlikely, after all they want to sell boats, and way too many people find the scow just dead ugly. There's good reasons why the scow never really made the jump across the Big Pond.

 

"This ain't no ship..."

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They just posted to Facebook that it is designed by guillaume verdier who designed Macif with VPLP. Could be a very advanced series design.

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They just posted to Facebook that it is designed by guillaume verdier who designed Macif with VPLP. Could Will be a very advanced series design.

 

There, fixed that for you.

 

Will be interesting to see how close it is to the Generic (One) proto(s), and how they're performing in relation to eachother, and the concurrents. Bring it on!

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Looks good. First non transom hung rudders I've see on a series boat. Should make outboard engines less awkward.

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Ryan, noticed that too. Might help the cavitation matter but would likely be heavier and more costly.

 

Some pics of the hull plug for those who haven't seen them on Facebook:

post-15809-0-35865400-1384792956_thumb.jpgpost-15809-0-43675900-1384792957_thumb.jpg

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Absolutely more expensive and more heavy.

And one thing I always disliked on a P2 was the autopilot always connected to the rudders-tiller. Think this one will have that too.

Curious who ordered this one.

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In a paper, le telegramme, economic section:

Le voile est levé avant même le départ de la Mini Transat, dimanche, de Douarnenez. Le chantier Structures s'apprête à lancer la construction du Pogo 3, nouveau mini de série signé Guillaume Verdier. Leader du marché, l'entreprise entend conserver son rang. Mais sans attendre les premières commandes de Pogo 3, Christian Bouroullec, le patron du chantier, se veut optimiste à la sortie du Grand pavois. Après une année de stabilisation de l'activité, 2014 annonce d'ores et déjà une nouvelle croissance. Elle va conduire Structures (50 salariés) à de nouvelles embauches.

 

So,

its a Pogo3,

its a Verdier,

Christian still the boss,

after one yr of stabilisation of orders they new see it growing again, so they will hire new people.

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Not liking the rudders. Makes things more difficult when things go wrong, and on such a small boat how much of a difference will less cavitation make?

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Cavitation is a problem, but Gutelle (French designer) had an answer. But then the blade gets thin near the surface. Just were you need a lot of strength.

I would suggest to permit carbon fiber etc for the rudders in the CM.

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They just posted to Facebook that it is designed by guillaume verdier who designed Macif with VPLP. Could be a very advanced series design.

What's the Facebook URL? I'd like to follow this

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I wonder how many rudder failures are from hitting things versus wipeouts and trying to recover? From 2009 it seemed most of those breakages were wipeouts. Less cavitation might mean fewer wipeouts and coupled with stronger rudders might not be a bad thing.

 

That said, the above image is just a rendering and could have zero bearing on what the finished product looks like, similar to what played out with the D2.

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Why do inboard rudders help with cavitation?

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They a better "sealed" at the top to reduce the likelihood of a bubble of air being sucked down the foil at high angles of attack. I am sure some of the more technically minded folks will jump in with a more correct description

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there's a whole discussion on this in the CClass multihull thread in Multihull Anarchy. Almost all of the C-Class have gone to underhung rudders (and the A Class as well) not only because of the cavitation issues but also because of less drag Since they are operating with an "endplate" they get less spanwise flow and thus are more effective and hence require less rudder movement for the same response and hence less drag

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That looks like a huge kite! Does anyone know the sail area figures of this boat?

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First, not cavitation, but ventilation. Cavitation is when the pressure on a submerged body is so low that the water turns to vapor. This happens on propellers and on highly loaded foils. Ventilation is when the low pressure side of the rudder, keel, or rudder pulls air down from the water surface. This causes the flow to break down, at first locally, and perhaps over the entire foil.

 

Secondly, I think this rendering is not enough to judge if that will in fact be the choice on the P3. The tiller extending aft of the transom is an indication that the boat may have conventional rudders. It can also be that the design will involve a set of kick up rudders. These have been used in Class 40, though they are not on the latest Verdier "Fantastica".

 

Class-40-Fantastica_TJV_2013_1-copy1.jpg

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Thanks Doug for the better explanation and the correct terms.

 

Completely agree that it is just a rendering and the finished boat could be very different. Also the pics I have seen of the hull plug do not include any obvious spots in the hull bottom where rudder posts would emerge.

 

First, not cavitation, but ventilation. Cavitation is when the pressure on a submerged body is so low that the water turns to vapor. This happens on propellers and on highly loaded foils. Ventilation is when the low pressure side of the rudder, keel, or rudder pulls air down from the water surface. This causes the flow to break down, at first locally, and perhaps over the entire foil.

 

Secondly, I think this rendering is not enough to judge if that will in fact be the choice on the P3. The tiller extending aft of the transom is an indication that the boat may have conventional rudders. It can also be that the design will involve a set of kick up rudders. These have been used in Class 40, though they are not on the latest Verdier "Fantastica".

 

Class-40-Fantastica_TJV_2013_1-copy1.jpg

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KickUp-Rudders are not allowed for series boats. So there is - apart from the possibility to "easily" change your rudder, less weight and smaller costs - no real benefit for using transom hang rudders. But the advantage of a better efficiency is there and will bring this to the P3.

 

 

First, not cavitation, but ventilation. Cavitation is when the pressure on a submerged body is so low that the water turns to vapor. This happens on propellers and on highly loaded foils. Ventilation is when the low pressure side of the rudder, keel, or rudder pulls air down from the water surface. This causes the flow to break down, at first locally, and perhaps over the entire foil.

 

Secondly, I think this rendering is not enough to judge if that will in fact be the choice on the P3. The tiller extending aft of the transom is an indication that the boat may have conventional rudders. It can also be that the design will involve a set of kick up rudders. These have been used in Class 40, though they are not on the latest Verdier "Fantastica".

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KickUp-Rudders are not allowed for series boats. So there is - apart from the possibility to "easily" change your rudder, less weight and smaller costs - no real benefit for using transom hang rudders. But the advantage of a better efficiency is there and will bring this to the P3.

 

 

First, not cavitation, but ventilation. Cavitation is when the pressure on a submerged body is so low that the water turns to vapor. This happens on propellers and on highly loaded foils. Ventilation is when the low pressure side of the rudder, keel, or rudder pulls air down from the water surface. This causes the flow to break down, at first locally, and perhaps over the entire foil.

 

Secondly, I think this rendering is not enough to judge if that will in fact be the choice on the P3. The tiller extending aft of the transom is an indication that the boat may have conventional rudders. It can also be that the design will involve a set of kick up rudders. These have been used in Class 40, though they are not on the latest Verdier "Fantastica".

Interesting. Rule S-5-b-2 was not there when I did our series design in 2007. Could be interesting to discuss what "lift up" means, or the original French for same.

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the original french text says "relevable" which is a general term that in my opinion includes all kinds of rudders: lift-up, kick-up etc.

 

maybe you could make a rudder system with a whole blade that can be easily dismountable from the transom and you could argue that your rudder is "démontable" not "relevable" but is it worth it ?

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Any news on the Pogo 3? Haven't seen or heard anything in a while and very curious as to where they are in the build process. Thanks!

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Seems like they want to be very sure everything's perfect before launching.

 

The Pogo 2 must have been a cash cow for so long, they will want to get those kind of sails for the 3- the Naciras and the like are coming on strong.

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115 Pogo 2's in 7 years of production. 2 per month as stated in the article, but in their last year of production in France they sold only 2 due in part to a saturated second hand market.They do mention that 30% of the minis built were for day sailing and coastal cruising.

 

Somewhat off topic here but did the Naciras preform well due to design or the skippers that sailed them? Seeing now that there is also the D2 and the Argo as third generation series boats and maybe a Bertrand-designed series boat too by the time the next MT comes around, competition should be stiff.

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For sure it's both - the Nacira skippers (Aymeric, Justine, Simon,...) are all much better skippers than the "average" mini skipper. But the Nacira got it's performance edge - or better say better controlability - by sacrificing low wind performance esp. in bigger waves compared to the P2. And so, there were always some P2 drivers like Renauld Mary and Ian Lipinski not far away or even in front of Justine and Simon during the last 2 years. When speaking early last year to Aymeric, he was quite "frustrated", that the performance edge he seemed to have in 2012 was gone in 2013 ... even compared to the P2 drivers ...

 

Regarding the competition - I suppose, that earliest in 2017 we'll see a P3 or the Bertrand competing for podium places in a MT. The 1st P3s will be available in summer and it's close to be impossible to get all 1000sm in races done until Paris boat show - even if Structures are flooding the market with 10 new boats in 2013. Maybe a foreigner could have a chance but I see a Nacira or RG on top if they have similar conditions like this year. For serious competitors (w/o big money behind) it's too dangerous to rely on a new and untested boat.

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And I wonder how many Nacira's are build in the past, as it seems from their blogpsot that they have problems with the yard stopping building this project.

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The new yard is currently building No 20 . And yes - with FR Nautisme stopped operations - it was unclear, whether Nacira production will be continued but ... No 20 is sold ...

 

BR

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So, a new yard is building them again I understand.

Good.

 

So now in production and in demand:

Nacira (France)

DIngo2 (France)

Pogo2 (US builder)
RG650 (Argentinia)
Argos (Spain)

 

To come

Bertrand (France)
Pogo3 (France)

 

Damn, its a crowded builders scene again.
Reminds me of the day Dingo, Pogo2, Mistral, Tiptop, Zero, Supercalin 2, Ginto, Twister were active.
Only 2 of them sold more then 30 :)

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On the rudder issue wouldn't underhangers more likely reduce the sort of problems Alex Thomson had with water generators hitting tiller crossbars? What kind of power systems are the the minis running today. What sort of power demands do they have? I know there's a lot less need for communications but AP, nav lights, computer, VHF/AIS, instruments + what else?

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Although there are some (1 or 2) using Hydrogens, the loss of speed is not that negligible like on IMOCAs or Class40s. Power needs do depend mostly on the consumption of the AP - no computers, Sat phones etc. allowed. So the demand is also not that high ...

 

BG, Frank

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i think I'm right in saying class mini require 2 sources of power, smart money seems to be on solar panel and fuel cell. Hydrogens would just add an additional complication, whereas fuel cells just get on with it - no moving parts, automated power management = 1 less thing to worry about, with no speed sacrifice.

 

Pogo 2 rudders are a bit of a weak spot (or at least the tiller attachment point) - I think most carried a spare for the MT. However, I can't see Pogo going away from the safety/simplicity of transom hung vs underslung, even more so when the current challengers to the throne (Nacira/Argos/RG) are still on transom hung. How much of a performance benefit is it on twin rudders....vs weight of 2 through boat stocks & tiller.

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What are the fuel cells powered by? I was under the impression they were hydrogen

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That is very interesting, the chemistry behind them is so simple.

 

 

What would the price be for one of them?

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Gas bottles used for hydrogen would be way heavier than the methanol cans and you wanna keep weight low on a mini

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Of couse he wanted the price of a hydrogenerator ... it's about the same than the fuelcell but on a 6.5m boat the drag is not negligible ...

 

Accoding to Charly (Pogo Structures) on Duesseldorf boat show, the 1st P3 will be launched end of March or beginning of April and they will produce appx. 6 boats until summer.

 

The P3 will have transom hung rudders

 

BR, Frank - 772 -

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That's the reasoning I wanted to hear. Does the whole fleet use them? It's a pretty substantial dent in the budget for a mini

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Most of the boats have fuelcells in combination with solar power. However, there are some (even Aymeric) who used gasoline generators during the normal season (when you are able to get around mostly with shore power and solar) ...

 

BR, Frank

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At least one tried solar only in last years transat - didn't go so well in the early (cloudy) stages. Not sure how that gets through two power source requirements - 2 separate panels maybe??

 

Fuel cell is certainly a more expensive option up front, however you could take into account extended life of the batteries as they are kept topped up, as opposed to deeper discharge cycles when having to plug a generator (petrol or water) in. You'll probably ruin a petrol generator in two years on a mini. I haven't done the sums, but reckon costs would probably come out roughly equal for any option over a two transat campaign. Fuel cell would certainly be the most hassle free setup. I'm not sure it's that big a dent in even an average mini budget.

 

Thanks for the info on P3's Frank, as Leo said a while ago, interesting times ahead for the series boats. I reckon Pogo will be lining up some good sailors for those early boats.

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this thread kinda died... what's up with the P3? Quote above says due out in March and 6 by summer. It's end of May... Who has pogo 3 knowledge?

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Just out of the mould. Pictures are from Olivier Taillard's Mini Transat 2015 facebook page.

post-33166-0-34407400-1401100876_thumb.jpg

post-33166-0-33442400-1401100883_thumb.jpg

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thanks Merde2, not to keep on beating a dead horse, but look at that bow! new P3 looks rad. can't wait to see them sailing in next year's MT against Nacira, RG, Argo, P2, etc.

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With so many quality competitors why not bang the corner and go scow? Seems like they're fiddling with bigger bows but I reckon a series builder at some point is going to sack up and go scow and be the big winner.

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Developing, building, marketing and classifying a series minis cost a lot, think in the hundreds of thousands Euro's. Hence little risk taking.

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No problem Ronnie.

Here's another update on the P3.

 

Looking at this new generation of series boats, they all seem deceptively similar.

post-33166-0-02218800-1402429403_thumb.jpg

post-33166-0-56040000-1402429418_thumb.jpg

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I have two questions :

- Is that still the Pogo2's coachroof ? It certainly looks that way !

- Why photoshop the bow in the last picture ?

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The bow doesn't seem to be shopped in that last shot, probably the light playing tricks...

 

Seems that the new Bertrand designed series boat has been out there since the beginning of the season skippered by Ian Lipinski.

Here are a few shots off of the http://lessables-lesacores.com/ website. It's a future series boat competing in the proto class at the moment.

Is this as close as we'll get to a series scow design?

post-33166-0-49191400-1405964609_thumb.jpg

post-33166-0-63395200-1405964617_thumb.jpg

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She is in the water :

 

first time I see a rudder fitting like this

 

10402447_10152630568182347_1712211875463

10687003_10152630569142347_4862520808062

10523283_10152630569237347_8406425296356

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Can't say she's pretty from that first picture.

Like the rudders though, especially the single tiller set up. Two tillers in a boat that small would just get in the way

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I like it. Does the sprit stow aft like that normally or was it just not rigged up yet? Fixed sprit or articulating?

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Sprit is probably meant to be like that, a lot of the minis do it.

 

Can articulate when in use, don’t let it drop into the drink to leeward or you won’t get it back. Don’t ask how I know that.

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Here are some pics with the sprit deployed and stowed. Boat includes outriggers which are a very good thing

post-15809-0-32285100-1410534129_thumb.jpg

post-15809-0-38845600-1410534277_thumb.jpg

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Now pogo single tiller due to curved mainsail track a bit more forward is my idea. The duo tillers were a very light solution on the P2.

But maybe now we get a autopilot you can disconnect easy from the tiller. Ugly tiller BTW.

 

Rudders, oh dear, rudders and minis, they hate each other. So many snapped. This looks sturdy, curious how they build them. The stock and gudgeons, very heavy duty looking in comparison with previous, but if its aluminium gudgeons, it could be light too.

 

The bulb and fin is very modern in comparison to Pogo 1 and 2.

 

The volume in the bow, now the bowsprit when brought in dips more :)

 

Offset handpump, only one..hmmm

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Very nice, nice spreaders.. clean deck with floating sheeting, and weird outboard bracket :)

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yachting world sail onboard pogo3

 

nice looking boat!

 

here it his :

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Noticed a purchase on the foredeck, yellow line, looks like a 6:1, anyone have any idea what it is? Maybe for reefing headsail from the cockpit? But that wouldn't necessarily require a 6:1...

 

HW

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Nice, purchase, its the bottom end of the babystay. Hard to judge from video but it looks a bit more forward then on the P2.

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Is that pivoting forestay deck attachment thingo for the sprit off the shelf or custom for the Pogo? Searched but can't find a closer look.

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Cool! Understand the amount of stroke in the system now, though didn't know they even had babystays...

 

HW

 

Nice, purchase, its the bottom end of the babystay. Hard to judge from video but it looks a bit more forward then on the P2.

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Bowsprit rotating, custom made fitting, this one looks like an upgrade too, again slight upgrade.

Imagen how many broke during R&D, I did one, took a few quid to get it right.

 

Good to see no interior paint, I can see part of the lam sched.

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Bowsprit rotating, custom made fitting, this one looks like an upgrade too, again slight upgrade.

Imagen how many broke during R&D, I did one, took a few quid to get it right.

 

Good to see no interior paint, I can see part of the lam sched.

 

I've only been on a mini when it was on the hard but on the interior, was it an optical illusion or is the hull deck joint so thin that we could see light shining through.

 

That's some sort of additional sealant that just happens to be light yellow, right?

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No foam at the hull/deck joint and laminate itself is not lightproof - it's no illusion - you have seen the light ;-)

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Does anyone know the price?

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No foam at the hull/deck joint and laminate itself is not lightproof - it's no illusion - you have seen the light ;-)

 

Damn do I love these crazy little boats

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yachting world sail onboard pogo3

 

nice looking boat!

 

here it his :

 

Very, very hot!!!

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