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Bull Gator

Gun nutter sttrikes again

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What spooks me is the tazer. You can easily set off a potato cannon with a BBQ sparker, but Tom uses a personal tazer. That's whack.

 

 

If it makes you feel any better, it's my brother who is whack. A regular PVC pipe nutter.

 

All the tater cannons I have built have used grill lighters as triggers. Those cheap little piezo electric sparks are unreliable and the fuel/air mixture in a tater cannon combustion chamber only stays mixed for so long. My bro decided he wanted a SPARK, DAMMIT, not just a spark, so he built that one with a tazer ignition. It is a lot more reliable and also safer, since accidentally setting it off would be nearly impossible.

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What spooks me is the tazer. You can easily set off a potato cannon with a BBQ sparker, but Tom uses a personal tazer. That's whack.

 

 

If it makes you feel any better, it's my brother who is whack. A regular PVC pipe nutter.

 

All the tater cannons I have built have used grill lighters as triggers. Those cheap little piezo electric sparks are unreliable and the fuel/air mixture in a tater cannon combustion chamber only stays mixed for so long. My bro decided he wanted a SPARK, DAMMIT, not just a spark, so he built that one with a tazer ignition. It is a lot more reliable and also safer, since accidentally setting it off would be nearly impossible.

Tater cannons have been classified as mortars in my neck of the woods. Gets the sheriff all riled up if you toss a few spuds. Not worth jeopardizing my ability to apply for a CCW in the future.

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What spooks me is the tazer. You can easily set off a potato cannon with a BBQ sparker, but Tom uses a personal tazer. That's whack.

 

 

If it makes you feel any better, it's my brother who is whack. A regular PVC pipe nutter.

 

All the tater cannons I have built have used grill lighters as triggers. Those cheap little piezo electric sparks are unreliable and the fuel/air mixture in a tater cannon combustion chamber only stays mixed for so long. My bro decided he wanted a SPARK, DAMMIT, not just a spark, so he built that one with a tazer ignition. It is a lot more reliable and also safer, since accidentally setting it off would be nearly impossible.

Tater cannons have been classified as mortars in my neck of the woods. Gets the sheriff all riled up if you toss a few spuds. Not worth jeopardizing my ability to apply for a CCW in the future.

 

You gotta be kidding me?!?

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Guest One of Five

 

 

 

What spooks me is the tazer. You can easily set off a potato cannon with a BBQ sparker, but Tom uses a personal tazer. That's whack.

 

 

If it makes you feel any better, it's my brother who is whack. A regular PVC pipe nutter.

 

All the tater cannons I have built have used grill lighters as triggers. Those cheap little piezo electric sparks are unreliable and the fuel/air mixture in a tater cannon combustion chamber only stays mixed for so long. My bro decided he wanted a SPARK, DAMMIT, not just a spark, so he built that one with a tazer ignition. It is a lot more reliable and also safer, since accidentally setting it off would be nearly impossible.

Tater cannons have been classified as mortars in my neck of the woods. Gets the sheriff all riled up if you toss a few spuds. Not worth jeopardizing my ability to apply for a CCW in the future.

 

You gotta be kidding me?!?

 

 

We used to launch potatoes across the harbor in Rye. Great fun.

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What spooks me is the tazer. You can easily set off a potato cannon with a BBQ sparker, but Tom uses a personal tazer. That's whack.

 

 

If it makes you feel any better, it's my brother who is whack. A regular PVC pipe nutter.

 

All the tater cannons I have built have used grill lighters as triggers. Those cheap little piezo electric sparks are unreliable and the fuel/air mixture in a tater cannon combustion chamber only stays mixed for so long. My bro decided he wanted a SPARK, DAMMIT, not just a spark, so he built that one with a tazer ignition. It is a lot more reliable and also safer, since accidentally setting it off would be nearly impossible.

Tater cannons have been classified as mortars in my neck of the woods. Gets the sheriff all riled up if you toss a few spuds. Not worth jeopardizing my ability to apply for a CCW in the future.

 

You gotta be kidding me?!?

 

 

I have heard they are illegal in a lot of places. Anyone who is scared of a tater gun would probably piss themselves if they learned about the real pipe nutters: competitors in the air cannon division at Punkin Chunkin.

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911 changed everything. In my neck of the woods its considered a mortar because it uses explosive gas to propel a projectile greater than 1 inch diameter. At least that was what the sheriff told us when he confiscated ours. Your laws my vary.

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illegal in california, but you knew that.

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Brass knuckle nutter hired to attack gun nutter shot and killed. The story is light on details, but normal gun nutters do not usually have brass knuckle nutters hired to attack them. On a hunch, I'm leaving off the sarcasm font for that guy.

 

Wasted nutter breaks into home of octogenarian gun nutters, gets shot.

 

Gun nutter finds two intruders in his home, shoots and hits one, they leave and are soon caught by police

 

Baseball bat nutter breaks into ex-girlfriend gun nutter's house, beats and threatens to kill her, gets shot

 

Teenager breaks into 75 year old gun nutter's house and attacks him, gets shot

 

Gun nutter fires warning shot at thief nutter, who comes toward him and gets shot again. Like many others, he was later caught at a hospital. He responded to a warning shot by going toward the shooter? Hmm...

 

Those are all more or less ordinary tales of nutters and nutters engaged in self-defense, but this last one deserves some thought.

 

Gun nutter engaged in legal self-defense accidentally shoots bystander

 

That happened in S. Carolina and the nutter "successfully argued that he is not subject to criminal or civil liability under the state’s self-defense immunity law."

 

Their self-defense law is similar to Florida's but what the guy did was legal there and might not be here. I don't think it would be smart anywhere, so no sarcasm font for him.

 

The general rule is that if you commit a crime and someone gets hurt in the course of that crime, it's your fault, no matter who did the actual hurting nor who was hurt. It's a good rule and they applied it in this case, but it conflicts with another good rule: if you pull a trigger, you're responsible for each round that leaves the barrel.

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911 changed everything. In my neck of the woods its considered a mortar because it uses explosive gas to propel a projectile greater than 1 inch diameter. At least that was what the sheriff told us when he confiscated ours. Your laws my vary.

 

That stinks for you guys - isn't prohibition applied w/out exception great?

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911 changed everything. In my neck of the woods its considered a mortar because it uses explosive gas to propel a projectile greater than 1 inch diameter. At least that was what the sheriff told us when he confiscated ours. Your laws my vary.

 

That stinks for you guys - isn't prohibition applied w/out exception great?

Probably for the best. Its all fun and games until someone loses an eye.

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911 changed everything. In my neck of the woods its considered a mortar because it uses explosive gas to propel a projectile greater than 1 inch diameter. At least that was what the sheriff told us when he confiscated ours. Your laws my vary.

 

That stinks for you guys - isn't prohibition applied w/out exception great?

Probably for the best. Its all fun and games until someone loses an eye.

 

 

Yeah, you probably need a slingshot ban to go along with it.

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Here's some interesting background leading up to the (watered down) Manchin-Tooney bill, which failed in April.

 

 

Firestorm erupts over story about Gottlieb and background checks

February 20, 2013

Tempers went ballistic in the firearms community Wednesday morning when the Seattle Timesreported that gun rights advocate Alan Gottlieb was negotiating with state lawmakers on so-called “universal background checks.”

On one forum, he was branded a “traitor.” On another, it was alleged that a “sell-out” is “in the works.” Elsewhere, one might think that Gottlieb was the anti-Christ. Even the Seattle Times reader section contains some nasty remarks.

It all has to do with House Bill 1588, against which Gottlieb testified while sitting next to the National Rifle Association’s savvy veteran lobbyist Brian Judy last week. In Gottlieb’s opinion, the measure in its original form “stunk.” It was after the hearing that Gottlieb and Rep. Mike Hope (R-Lake Stevens) had a long conversation.

Gottlieb, founder of the Bellevue-based Second Amendment Foundation and chairman of the Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms, subsequently talked with Hope again, but that discussion is not as close to producing a done deal as the Seattle Times story intimated. One might compare it to the time that Samuel Clemens wrote, “The reports of my death are greatly exaggerated.”

Phones have been ringing non-stop at Gottlieb’s Liberty Park complex since early Wednesday morning, and a stream of e-mails – many apparently written by people who did not read the Times article but only picked up on conversations on gun rights forums – have been stinging.

Last month, people were calling him a hero for forcing the City of Oak Harbor to erase a long-standing city parks gun ban ordinance under threat of a lawsuit. He was cheered last year for beating the City of Seattle on its attempt to ban firearms from city park facilities, and undo the state’s model preemption law in the process. In 2010, he was virtually canonized for having filed the landmark lawsuit that led to the Second Amendment’s incorporation to the states by the U.S. Supreme Court in McDonald v. City of Chicago.

Now, because he has participated in a give-and-take discussion about background checks, he’s suddenly a pariah.

Then, again, maybe he isn’t.

Gottlieb may actually hold all the cards in the gun rights debate in Olympia, and he’s a pretty shrewd poker player. Before even considering supporting any kind of expansion of the current background check law, the state would have to make serious concessions, he told Examiner. The Seattle Times article portrayed the situation thusly: “To support it now, Gottlieb is requesting several tweaks, including asking state officials to conduct the checks, not the feds.”

Those “tweaks” include something monumental: Destruction of Washington state’s long-standing handgun registry, a database that has existed for years on every retail handgun purchase. For those gun owners who did not realize this, when a potential buyer fills out paperwork at a gun store, in addition to the federal Form 4473 which is done for the background check, there is a State of Washington Pistol Transfer Application.

One copy goes to local law enforcement and the other goes to the state Department of Licensing, where the record is kept. Under Gottlieb’s proposal, that would cease to exist.

Another concession would be an exemption from background checks for any state resident possessing a concealed pistol license (CPL). Also, no checks would be required for firearms transfers between family members.

In addition, according to Gottlieb, “If you are a member of an organization like the Washington Arms Collectors who does a background check for membership, you would be exempt from additional checks to buy a firearm at their gun shows.” His full statement is below.

Some political insiders have privately suggested that Gottlieb’s maneuver is nothing short of brilliant. On the outside chance this measure should become law, it would be the first time in memory that a state gun registry would be abolished. “That,” said Gottlieb, “would be huge.” Right now, he is waiting to see a substitute measure that includes all of his requirements, and a non-severability clause, meaning that if one section of the law goes down, it all goes down.

Gottlieb does not believe legislative anti-gunners will go along with his provisions, and will kill the bill. If so, the political blood will be on their hands, he says. Gun owners made a legitimate offer and anti-gunners slapped it away because they wanted something for nothing; all “take” and no “give.”

Historically, that has been the pattern with any gun control effort. The prohibition lobby has expected gun owners to roll over for every demand and expect nothing in return, and then insisted that they are being “reasonable” against an "extremist gun lobby." As this column noted, Evergreen State gun rights advocates are pushing back this session in Olympia. Gottlieb’s proposal just might reveal who the real extremists are.

Alan Gottlieb’s statement:

“First you should know that I do not support Washington House Bill 1588 as it is currently written.

“My support for a state universal background check bill must include a substantial victory for gun owners that includes, but is not limited to repealing, prohibiting and destroying the current state handgun registration system and the data base of several million records of gun owners and their firearms that include the type of handguns and the serial numbers.

“This would be a huge victory for our gun rights. We would be the first state to repeal a gun registration system. Think about that and what it means for your privacy as a gun owner and the fact that we all know historically that registration leads to confiscation.

“In addition, if you have a carry permit you will be exempt from additional background checks. No checks would be required for transfers between family members. If you are a member of an organization like the Washington Arms Collectors that does a background check for membership, you would be exempt from additional checks to buy a firearm at their gun shows.

“There are other inclusions that must be made as well that are good for our rights and freedom that need to be in a final bill to have my support.

“My guess is that the gun grabbers will not go along with these provisions and kill the bill. If they do the “blood” so to speak is on their hands, not ours.

“There are other smart, tactical, political and morally justified reasons why I have taken this position that I do not want to make public at this time. We do have enemies and I am not going to telegraph our strategy to them by spelling out our battle plans.

“I enjoy winning our freedoms more than the fight. I wish I can say that about some of my critics who have pre-judged without knowledge what it is that I am doing.

“Anyone who knows me knows that for the past forty years my efforts have expanded and protected our right to keep and bear arms from local city councils all the way to the United States Supreme Court.”

Alan Gottlieb

===========================================

Pasted from <http://www.examiner.com/article/firestorm-erupts-over-story-about-ccrkba-and-background-checks>

 

After a few months, it gets even more interesting...

 

Gun Rights Group: ‘Gun Grabbers Have Stepped Into Our Trap’

“If you read the bill, you can see all the advances for our cause that it contains like interstate sales of handguns,

veteran gun rights restoration,

travel with firearms protection,

civil and criminal immunity lawsuit protection if you sell a gun plus more,”

Gottlieb said in his statement. “It also exempts the sale or transfer of firearms between family members and friends as well as sales outside a commercial venue from a background check. If you have any kind of current state permit to own, use or carry, no check is done, just the Form 4473 to stay with a dealer.”

By Laura Matthews | April 14 2013 11:41 PM

A gun-rights group that had a hand in developing the recent bipartisan measure on background checks in the U.S. Senate said gun grabbers walked into its trap and that it would take pleasure in seeing President Barack Obama sign the bill.

The Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms on Sunday endorsed the agreement brokered last week by Sens. Joe Manchin, D-W.Va., and Pat Toomey, R-Pa.

In an email to the IB Times on Sunday, Alan Gottlieb, chairman of the committee, explained that he and the group’s attorney lobbyist not only influenced the bipartisan legislation but also wrote parts of it.

Pasted from <http://www.dailypaul.com/281823/alert-alan-gottlieb-of-2a-fdn-publicly-admits-to-crafting-the-toomey-manchin-univ-gun-registry-bill>

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Now here's a good look at Mr. Gottlieb, founder of the Second Amendment Foundation and other mischief.

I dedicate the posting to our guy Tom Ray.

 

 

 

'For us' said Mr. Gottlieb...'the environmental movement has become the perfect bogeyman.'

Pasted from <http://web.archive.org/web/20041020122541/http://www.clearproject.org/reports_cdfe.html>

 

Alan Gottlieb: The Merchant of Fear

by Jim Halpin and Paul de Armond

©1994, 1995 Jim Halpin, Paul de Armond

 

Pasted from <http://www.sweetliberty.org/mof.htm>

Despite appearances, Gottlieb is a buccaneering entrepreneur with a remarkable knack for cashing in big on right-wing causes. "I am," he says, "the premiere anti-communist, free-enterprise, laissez-faire capitalist," He is also:

  • President and founder of the Center for the Defense of Free Enterprise, which in 1988 launched the Wise Use Movement, today the most powerful anti-environmental force in the country. Wise Use Movement groups are now active in every state, indeed, in nearly every county, in America. Wise Use's clout in Congress has grown so much in the past year that it has been able to halt all pending environmental legislation in this session.
  • President of two non-profit corporations which form the most potent pro-gun force in the country, outside of the National Rifle Association. The two non profits are the Second Amendment Foundation and the Citizens's Committee For the Right to Keep and Bear arms.
  • A master fund raiser for conservative causes and candidates -- the most successful one outside Washington, D.C.
  • A member of the board of governors on the powerful and ultra-secretive Council for National Policy. Front Lines Research, a Planned Parenthood magazine called the CNP, "the central leadership network of the far right in the United States." Membership is secret but is known to include such familiar right wing stalwarts as CNP president, Former Attorney General Edwin Meese, Paul Weyrich, founding president of the Heritage Foundation, Jerry Falwell and Oliver North.
  • Sole proprietor of a profitable right wing publishing complex which writes, edits and distributes conservative books and magazines.
  • Owner of KBNP, a business radio station in Portland, and Chairman of the Board of the Talk America Radio Network which has 196 affiliated radio stations across the nation. In Seattle, the Talk America affiliate is King-AM.
  • A convicted felon. In 1984, Gottlieb pleaded guilty to underpaying income tax returns by $17,000 and served ten months in Federal prison.

In Trashing the Economy, the 1993 book he and his co-author, CDFE Vice President Ron Arnold write with startling frankness that:

"The message of the direct mail letter must appeal to three base emotions; Fear, Hate and Revenge…

"[The] fund raising mailer must present you with a crisis -- a problem won't do...That crisis must frighten you...If you are not frightened, you won't send money…

"Then the direct mail letter must present you with a bogeyman against whom to focus your anger…

"Once you've been frightened and made to hate the bogeyman, the successful direct mail appeal must offer you a way to get revenge against the bogeyman -- the payoff for your contribution. The more soul-satisfying the revenge, the better the letter pulls.

"All this must be dressed up in an appeal that appears to have a high moral tone, but which -- without you realizing it -- works on your lower emotions."

Gottlieb and Arnold are describing environmental direct-mail pitches but Arnold in an interview on Center for the Defense of Free Enterprise, also told us that "in direct mail, fear, hate and revenge go a long way."

 

Apparently deception also goes a long way. In June 1994, Gottlieb sent a mass mailing that appeared to come directly from Rep. Philip M. Crane ® of Illinois, though the postmark was Bellevue. The envelope bore a replica of the Congressional seal and in large, bold letters identified the sender as: The Honorable Philip M. Crane Rep. Crane, Member of Congress. The return address, however was Bellevue.

 

The letter inside bore Congressman Crane's signature.

"Dear Friends," the letter started off, "I recently asked Alan Gottlieb, Chairman of the Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms, for the names of a few selected Americans with whom I could communicate directly on a matter of great importance to our gun rights.

Yours was one of the names Alan gave me.

Will you join with me and U. S. Senators Bob Dole, Orrin Hatch, Trent Lott, Don Nickles and other distinguished Americans as a member of the National Advisory Council of the Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms?

After telling the reader that "over a 100 members of the United States Congress serve" on the advisory council, the letter warns in upper case that "ANTI-GUN FORCES NOW CONTROL THE WHITE HOUSE AND BOTH THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES AND THE UNITED STATES SENATE."

 

"I'm amazed," reads another paragraph, "that many gun owners I talk to don't seem to understand that handgun ban laws are the first steps toward stripping Americans of their right to own and use all firearms."

 

The Crane letter contains an intimidating questionnaire which, among other things, demands an "X" before one of two questions:

[] YES, I'll help you in this urgent battle by rushing you my most generous contribution today: [$20 to $500].

[] NO, even though the powerful "ban the gun" crowd is at this very moment mounting an attack on my gun rights, I can't join your National Advisory Council

Gottlieb's direct response letters often contain surveys with loaded questions like:

Would you use a gun to protect yourself, your family or your home from armed attack?

"Most anti-gun advocates claim that gun owners are primarily responsible for violent crime, do you agree?"

(snipped)

 

Gottlieb enrolled at the University of Tennessee in 1966 when the Vietnam War and student protests were heating up. His mother believes the anti-war movement's tactics shocked her son so much that it turned him into a conservative. "I think it was all the riots that were taking place on campus with the Vietnam War," said Sherry. "He disapproved of the manner in which they were rioting and carrying on."

 

Seymour says that the rioting was part of the reason for his son's conversion but that "mainly it was the SDS in school, the Students for a Democratic Society, the communists...You know they wanted to close the school at one time, and he didn't like that because here was his father working two jobs so he could go to college...So...Alan and a couple of other students...instituted a suit...and they had the school kept open. And that's when he turned, at that time, because he was a tremendous liberal before...Liberalism to him wasn't any good anymore because if they could do what they did by just opening their mouths, it was just a little too much. "

 

Although Alan disapproved of students protesting the Vietnam War, he was no more anxious than they were to get into it. "We kept him out of it," says Sherry. "Yeah, we got him into the National Guard. My husband did." Seymour says he, "didn't exactly get him into the Guard, but you know, I worked for the government and a lot of sites had openings."

 

(snipped)

 

In 1972, Young Americans for Freedom gave Gottlieb a bigger job, this time in Seattle. He was responsible for running the eleven-state region for YAF. He also directed the national office of an ad-hoc YAF group called the Students Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms.

 

Gottlieb recalled,"...I saw there was a vacuum and a void, in the gun movement, there was the NRA and at the time, it was 1971, early 72, at the time the NRA didn't have a registered lobbyist in Washington, D.C. The NRA considered that lobbying was that you write an article in your magazine and that ...would get... [the readers] all excited and [they would] write Congress. And congress never got such mail in their life and it was considered to be successful."

 

(snipped)

 

In February 1983, Gottlieb got an all expense paid trip to Jamaica to attend a conference put on by CAUSA. CAUSA is Spanish for "cause", but it stands for the Confederation of Associations for the Unification of the Societies of the Americas. Founded in Mexico City by Col. Bo Hi Pak (Rev. Sun Myong Moon's chief lieutenant) and Kim Sang In, the former Korean Central Intelligence Agency station chief in Mexico City, CAUSA was the Rev. Moon's multinational anti-communist and political organization. CAUSA served as the vehicle for Rev. Moon's funding of the New Right, as well as for supporting the Reagan administration's military build-up and its cause celebre, the Nicaraguan contras.

 

 

Gottlieb says, "The only thing I ever did with CAUSA was attend one of their conferences. I was invited to, all expenses paid, a conference in Jamaica [in February, 1983] that discussed the threat of communism in South and Latin America and had leaders from all political persuasions, all parties, all religions, all sorts of ministers.... About the only thing I remember was that my seat-mate next to me was Eldridge Cleaver."

 

Gregory McDonald, who was Executive Director of the Center for the Defense of Free Enterprise and Executive Director of the Second Amendment Foundation, says otherwise. In a lengthy telephone interview with Eastsideweek, McDonald said, "Bo Hi Pak was in our office several times. ...in '83." McDonald says that Pak was in the Liberty Park office "at least four times, that I can remember."

 

"I was introduced to him, briefly, once, just as I was walking down the hall," McDonald recalls, "But they would go into Alan's office and the door would be closed. He'd come in a limo and have with him, oh, three or four Korean people and they'd go into Alan's office." McDonald says that he did not know what CAUSA was until Gottlieb sent him to a conference: "He sent me down to San Francisco, in August, three weeks before I was fired [from SAF and CDFE] to attend it and I left in disgust. ...CAUSA or Causa, however it is pronounced, it is scary. It is an indoctrination session. And they had people staking out every table. ...I was offended. I thought it was manipulative and brainwashing. And I thought it was-- There was just too much money, too much stuff for it to be legitimate. I didn't want any part of it, so... [we] left the meetings."

 

(snipped)

 

Shortly after the February 1983 Causa conference, 1983, Gottlieb became involved in a watershed gun-control controversy. A proposed federal law would make armor-piercing pistol ammunition illegal. Gottlieb, as president of the Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms, opposed the legislation. The ammunition in question was dubbed "cop killer" ammunition because the Teflon-coated bullets could penetrate the equivalent of four Kevlar bullet-proof vests. The bullets were popular with some sports shooters because of the higher muzzle energy and velocity. These features give the ammunition a longer range and flatter trajectory. This made them very attractive for silhouette shooters, who aim at small metal targets over relatively long ranges. The lubrication provided by the Teflon was also supposed to cause less wear and tear on gun barrels.

 

Gottlieb, in his role as the national chairman of the Citizen's Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms, was quoted in the Seattle Times as saying, "Most people who propose gun control legislation know absolutely nothing about guns or ballistics." Gottlieb's position is very straightforward: he is against gun control. "It's not that we're against protection for cops," Gottlieb said, "but this is a backdoor approach to gun control."

 

Law enforcement authorities, which had been allies of the gun lobby, took a stand in favor of the new law. In the same Times article, Sgt. Fred Hill of the Seattle Police Department stated, "It's an emotional issue with policemen because they feel it's one more thing that can be used against them." The law banning the armor-piercing ammunition passed. With this debate, the separation of police groups and the gun lobby began.

 

Gottlieb sees his role in gun issues as having an influence on the NRA. "I'm kind of the gun lobby's lobby. I prod them a whole lot. What happens is that things get innovated here and the NRA is then forced to copy it. A good example is the whole woman [sic] and guns issue. Other examples could be making the gun movement more of a civil-rights type thing, than a politically sportsmen's, you know, sportsmen's use of guns. We've made it more of civil rights debate," he explains.

 

(snipped)

 

The following year, 1984, was not a good one for Gottlieb. For openers, a federal grand jury indicted him on two counts of filing false income tax returns and neglecting to pay $40,000 in taxes for 1977 and 1978. He eventually admitted to underpaying by $17,000. He was fined $5,000 and sentenced to 366 days in a minimum security jail in Spokane. As jails go, it wasn't a bad place and anyway he was released every morning to do work-release fund raising for the local YMCA.

 

The branch director of the Spokane YMCA, Mary Harnetiaux, told Eastsideweek in an telephone interview, that according to long-time employees: "History and legend has it, that as they recall, he was part of a work release program from Geiger Correctional. He was here to put together a [fundraising] campaign, but nothing came of it. He was here a very short time, less than three months and he didn't spend a lot of time in the building."

 

Meanwhile back at Liberty Park, things were happening that would make jail time seem like a paid vacation. In Gottlieb's absence, seven employees had been going through his books and had concluded that for some time he had been mismanaging the Second Amendment Foundation. Speaking in a telephone interview, Greg McDonald, former head of the SAF, told how he and all the SAF employees attempted "ask the court to appoint a court receiver to manage the foundation."

 

On Labor Day of 1984, the cops were called to Liberty Park after a scuffle broke out between McDonald's faction and Gottlieb family members. McDonald's group had filed a summons and complaint that day requesting that Gottlieb show why a receiver should not be appointed. Later, when more information came to light, they filed federal charges against Gottlieb for "racketeering and conspiracy to defraud" contributors.

 

Arnold minded the store at CDFE until Gottlieb was released from prison in the summer of 1985. That same year Gottlieb joined the Council for National Policy. He is proud enough of his membership to list it in Who's Who in America.

 

The Council for National Policy is one of the most powerful and secretive right wing organizations in the country. First coming to national attention in the Iran-Contra scandal, when Lt. Col. Oliver North's remarks to a CNP gathering in Nashville were leaked to the Washington Post. In the ensuing controversy over North's fundraising for the Contras, numerous members of the CNP were involved.

 

The secrecy that surrounds the group has only slowly been peeled away. The CNP was started in 1981 by former Rep. Larry McDonald (D-GA) and Californian William Cies, both leaders of the John Birch Society. They in turn recruited Dr. Tim LaHaye, a leader of the Moral Majority in California, to be the first president. The CNP sees itself as the conservative alternative to the establishment Council on Foreign Relations.

 

CNP members must be approved by a unanimous vote of the current executive committee. Some of the people that approved Gottlieb's membership included the three past presidents of the CNP: Thomas F. Ellis, a former director of the Pioneer Fund, which supports efforts to prove that blacks are genetically inferior to whites (Ellis later distanced himself from his racist past); Nelson Bunker Hunt, silver speculator and member of the John Birch Society's national council; and Dr. Tim LaHaye, the founding president.

 

Political researcher Fred Clarkson sees the CNP as being the "central leadership network of the far right in the United States." The CNP has a policy of keeping nearly everything about the organization secret. At a CNP gathering in St. Louis in October 1993, executive director Morton C. Blackwell distributed a memo to all attendees that cautioned them that "Council meetings are closed to the media and general public. The media should not know when or where we meet or who takes part in our programs, before or after a meeting." The memo concludes "We have these rules for your benefit and to allow open, uninhibited remarks from our speakers."

 

The current president of the CNP is Edwin Meese III. Oliver North is on the current Executive Committee that vets all proposed members, as are Holland "Holly" Coors, Edwind J. Feulner (head of the Heritage Foundation), Howard Phillips (of the US Taxpayers Party and the Conservative Caucus) and Richard DeVos (president of the Amway Corporation). Former presidents of CNP include Thomas Ellis, Nelson Bunker Hunt, Richard DeVos, and Pat Robertson.

 

(snipped)

 

Gottlieb's Second Amendment Foundation raised ($42000) by using the name of Bernard Goetz in a telephone campaign.

 

Goetz rose to national prominence in December 1984 for shooting four black youths in a New York subway. In May 1985, Gottlieb complied with a request from Goetz's attorneys to cease and desist using Goetz's name in fund raising efforts by the Second Amendment Foundation. The SAF had been soliciting donations by telephone for the "Citizens' Self-Defense Fund." Supposedly, the money would be earmarked for the defense of people like Goetz. Mike Kenyon of the SAF at first told the Seattle Times that "only $10,000 or $12,000" had been raised. When the paper contacted Joseph Kellner, Goetz's attorney, he said that the amount reported to him by Kenyon was actually $42,000. Kenyon later admitted that the larger amount was correct. Kellner said that he was not implying any wrongdoing on the part of the SAF. Noting that several unauthorized fundraising operations were underway nationwide, Kellner said, "We cannot have any part of it. We have no way of knowing whether the money that is collected will got to Mr. Goetz, and the only honorable thing to do is to have nothing to do with it."

 

(snipped)

 

Later that year, Gottlieb and Arnold had a visitor at Liberty Park, Dr. Robert Grant of Christian Voice. Grant came with a proposal to form a political group called the American Freedom Coalition.

 

The American Freedom Coalition was Rev. Sun Myong Moon's latest political venture. According to a March 27, 1989 article in U.S. News and World Report, on New Year's day, 1987, Rev Moon told his Unification Church followers that he wanted to expand the church's political influence. The AFC was the vehicle for that expansion.

 

(snipped)

1989 was not lacking in Gottlieb's favorite issue: guns. In this case, Seattle's Mayor Charles Royer balked at a recently enacted state law that required the police to auction off unclaimed guns. Royer told the Seattle Times that "We're sending a terrible message when the police do an admirable job of apprehending and disarming criminals. And then we watch those same firearms being sold by the police back to the community. No officer wants to be staring down the barrel of a gun he or she confiscated just a few months ago."

 

Gottlieb called Royer's comments "nice emotional rhetoric" and got blasted the following day in a Times' editorial which stated that "Predictably, the pro-gun forces weighed in with some naive responses."

 

The KTW Teflon bullet issue had started the breach between the gun lobby and the police. Now it was out in the open. When John Hinkley emptied his revolver at Ronald Reagan, the political damage to the gun lobby was immense, but very slow to happen. Sarah Brady's efforts at gun control, which came to fruition last spring in the passage of the Brady Bill, did not go unnoticed by Gottlieb.

 

In 1990, two years before Wise Use started to show a sizeable cash flow, Gottlieb ran a national ad campaign that demanded that "Sarah Brady Stop Lying." Mrs. Brady is the wife of former White House press secretary John Brady, who was permanently disabled in the 1981 assassination attempt on President Ronald Reagan. She has spearheaded gun control as a national issue for the last decade.

 

(snipped)

 

Gottlieb looks back on this episode as an example of his leadership of the gun lobby. He says, "We're totally independent [from the NRA]. We share intelligence information. We let them know what districts we think might, something might be able to happen or some congressman is doing what. ...our materials, a lot of our materials probably is what helped, and meetings, helped against [sic] Jolene Unsoeld. [it] is an example, that we were right on the issue. The NRA was spending money against Jolene Unsoeld, years ago, we had to pump the NRA, 'Stop spending your money there. It's not a good place to spend your money.' Jolene now agrees with us. She understands the issue."

 

(snipped)

 

A month later, on January 13, the Boston Globe quoted Arnold as saying "We are sick to death of environmentalism and so we shall destroy it. We will not allow our right to own property to be stripped from us by a bunch of eco-fascists."

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Hey jocal, please stop ignoring the question: DO YOU STILL OWN A GUN?

 

 

Yes, Jeff, I still have my .22 rifle. I had a modest gun collection at age 12.

I am a once-proud gun owner, and speak as such.

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Hey jocal, please stop ignoring the question: DO YOU STILL OWN A GUN?

 

 

Yes, Jeff, I still have my .22 rifle. I had a modest gun collection at age 12.

I am a once-proud gun owner, and speak as such.

I have a 12 gauge double barrel side by side. Jed Clampett style. Don't know the make or model, don't care. Its old. The stock is split so we don't shoot it.

Also have a 12 gauge pump. Winchester 1910 model I think. Nice gun. Great for skeet shoots.

Also have a 22 long rifle bolt action. Don't know the brand, don't care. But it shoots well and straight. Taken out a raccoon and one annoying tree rat with it.

Also have a Daisy air rifle pump action. Its great for chasing off wood peckers. I did kill a vole who was annoying my dog with it.

Got all the guns from my dad who got most of them from his dad. I'll give them to my son.

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Hey jocal, please stop ignoring the question: DO YOU STILL OWN A GUN?

 

 

Yes, Jeff, I still have my .22 rifle. I had a modest gun collection at age 12.

I am a once-proud gun owner, and speak as such.

I have a 12 gauge double barrel side by side. Jed Clampett style. Don't know the make or model, don't care. Its old. The stock is split so we don't shoot it.

Also have a 12 gauge pump. Winchester 1910 model I think. Nice gun. Great for skeet shoots.

Also have a 22 long rifle bolt action. Don't know the brand, don't care. But it shoots well and straight. Taken out a raccoon and one annoying tree rat with it.

Also have a Daisy air rifle pump action. Its great for chasing off wood peckers. I did kill a vole who was annoying my dog with it.

Got all the guns from my dad who got most of them from his dad. I'll give them transfer them to a dealer who will do a background check and then transfer them to my son.

 

Fixed. At least, I assume that's what you meant, since you believe that is the right thing to do.

 

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I was never proud of owning a gun. It's basically a useless possession.

with your knowledge and skill set, that's no surprise.

actually, i am glad you got rid of it. you could have shot yourself................

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Dumbass felon tries to get dealers to sell to him at gun show, gets 9 month sentence

 

He probably believed that there is some "gun show loophole" or something, or maybe believed that gun dealers will jump at the chance to make illegal sales.


According to a summary of evidence, Reaves, who now lives in Richmond, tried to persuade numerous federally licensed firearms dealers to sell him a gun privately and without a background check at the Showmasters gun show July 7 at the Richmond Raceway Complex.

 

The dealers refused and alerted state trooper D.M. Sottile, who eventually identified Reaves and arrested him after determining he had a felony record.

 

Cerullo, a former police officer who prosecutes many of Henrico’s gun crimes, said the case is indicative of the cooperation between firearms dealers at gun shows and state police to prevent guns from falling into the wrong hands.

 

Felons, and in many cases people with misdemeanor convictions, are prohibited by law from buying or possessing firearms. So are people who have been involuntarily committed for mental illness.

 

Sottile and other state troopers have developed a rapport with firearms dealers at Virginia gun shows, and those relationships have helped reduce illegal gun sales, authorities said.

 

“Licensed gun dealers play a major role in stopping illegal gun purchases, especially straw purchases,” Sottile said. “In my experience at gun shows and licensed firearms storefronts throughout the Richmond area, dealers have contacted me if they suspect someone — through his or her conversation with the customer or the customer’s odd behavior — is attempting to make an illegal purchase.”

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911 changed everything. In my neck of the woods its considered a mortar because it uses explosive gas to propel a projectile greater than 1 inch diameter. At least that was what the sheriff told us when he confiscated ours. Your laws my vary.

 

Which is perfect freakin example of a solution looking for a problem. And exactly why it is important to oppose knee jerk emotional reactions by people who feel they have to "do something" wrt to guns. Was there a spate of potato mortar terrorism in your town???

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911 changed everything. In my neck of the woods its considered a mortar because it uses explosive gas to propel a projectile greater than 1 inch diameter. At least that was what the sheriff told us when he confiscated ours. Your laws my vary.

 

Which is perfect freakin example of a solution looking for a problem. And exactly why it is important to oppose knee jerk emotional reactions by people who feel they have to "do something" wrt to guns. Was there a spate of potato mortar terrorism in your town???

 

 

You've never heard of the Telluride Tater Massacre?.....

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911 changed everything. In my neck of the woods its considered a mortar because it uses explosive gas to propel a projectile greater than 1 inch diameter. At least that was what the sheriff told us when he confiscated ours. Your laws my vary.

 

Which is perfect freakin example of a solution looking for a problem. And exactly why it is important to oppose knee jerk emotional reactions by people who feel they have to "do something" wrt to guns. Was there a spate of potato mortar terrorism in your town???

 

I urge you to re-think such statements. Because you are da man. You are unique, and could show constructive leadership.

Mmm, you show an inquisitive mind, overall, yet a certain blindness on this subject.

The guns may be inanimate, until they jump into action based on poisoned philosophies, many of which you actively promote.

My take, based on discourse with you and your pals here, is that you guys don't seem to know when to stop. so must be stopped by others. Sorry.

 

Jeff, two days ago you put quotation marks on the trend of our US gunplay. Let's review the "trend", without personal attacks if possible.

 

 

 

How is this deterioration of the norm disputable, given the post 1977 developments?

 

 

Surveys suggest America's guns may be concentrated in fewer hands today: Approximately 40 percent of households had them in the past decade, versus about 50 percent in the 1980s. But far more relevant is a recent barrage of laws that have rolled back gun restrictions throughout the country. In the past four years, across 37 states, the NRA and its political allies have pushed through 99 laws making guns easier to own, carry, and conceal from the government.

The NRA surge: 99 recent laws rolling back gun regulations in 37 states.

Among the more striking measures: Eight states now allow firearms in bars.

Law-abiding Missourians can carry a gun while intoxicated and even fire it if "acting in self-defense."

In Kansas, permit holders can carry concealed weapons inside K-12 schools, and Louisiana allows them in houses of worship.

Virginia not only repealed a law requiring handgun vendors to submit sales records, but the state also ordered the destruction of all such previous records.

More than two-thirds of these laws were passed by Republican-controlled statehouses, though often with bipartisan support.

The laws have caused dramatic changes, including in the two states hit with the recent carnage. Colorado passed its concealed-carry measure in 2003, issuing 9,522 permits that year; by the end of last year the state had handed out a total of just under 120,000, according to data we obtained from the County Sheriffs of Colorado. In March of this year, the Colorado Supreme Court ruled that concealed weapons are legal on the state's college campuses. (It is now the fifth state explicitly allowing them.)

If former neuroscience student James Holmes were still attending the University of Colorado today, the movie theater killer—who had no criminal history and obtained his weapons legally—could've gotten a permit to tote his pair of .40 caliber Glocks straight into the student union.

Wisconsin's concealed-carry law went into effect just nine months before the Sikh temple shooting in suburban Milwaukee this August. During that time, the state issued a whopping 122,506 permits, according to data from Wisconsin's Department of Justice. The new law authorizes guns on college campuses, as well as in bars, state parks, and some government buildings.

And we're on our way to a situation where the most lax state permitting rules—say, Virginia's, where an online course now qualifies for firearms safety training and has drawn a flood of out-of-state applicants—are in effect national law. Eighty percent of states now recognize handgun permits from at least some other states. And gun rights activists are pushing hard fora federal reciprocity bill—passed in the House late last year, with GOP vice presidential candidate Paul Ryan among its most ardent supporters—that would essentially make any state's permits valid nationwide.

Indeed, the country's vast arsenal of handguns—at least 118 million of them as of 2010—is increasingly mobile, with 69 of the 99 new state laws making them easier to carry. A decade ago, seven states and the District of Columbia still prohibited concealed handguns; today, it's down to just Illinois and DC. (And Illinois recently passed an exception cracking the door open to carrying). In the 62 mass shootings we analyzed, 54 of the killers had handguns—including in all 15 of the mass shootings since the surge of pro-gun laws began in 2009.

Some particularly noteworthy laws:

  • Bullets and booze: In Missouri, law-abiding citizens can carry a gun while intoxicated and even fire it if "acting in self-defense."
  • Child-safety lock off: In Kansas, permit holders can carry concealed weapons inside K-12 schools and at school-sponsored activities.
  • Short arm of the law: In Utah, a person under felony indictment can buy a gun, and a person charged with a violent crime may be able to retain a concealed weapon permit. Nebraskans who've pled guilty to a violent crime can get a permit to carry a gun.
  • Sweet Jesus! In Louisiana, permit holders can carry concealed weapons inside houses of worship.
  • Without a trace: Virginia not only repealed a law requiring handgun vendors to submit sales records, but the state also ordered the destruction of all such previous records.

Pasted from <http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/09/map-gun-laws-2009-2012>

The Gun Industry’s Immunity from Lawsuits

Tort liability plays an important role in injury prevention. In circumstances where legislators have been unwilling to enact regulations to improve safety, dangerous products and careless industry practices are normally held in check by the possibility of civil litigation that enables injured individuals to recover monetarily. As noted above, policies designed to hold gun sellers accountable can curtail the diversion of guns to criminals. Litigation can do the same thing.73 The firearms industry, however, has recently obtained unprecedented immunity from this long-standing system of accountability.

A series of lawsuits in the 1990s held certain members of the firearms industry liable for particularly reckless practices. As a result, the industry began to push legislation in statehouses that limited this avenue of relief. Then, in 2005, after intense lobbying from the gun industry, Congress enacted and President Bush signed a law that gives gun manufacturers and sellers unprecedented nationwide immunity from lawsuits. This law, known as the “Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act,” requires the dismissal of almost any lawsuit brought against a member of the gun industry for irresponsible or negligent behavior in the business of making or selling guns.74 This law enables gun makers and sellers to market their products in ways that are intended to appeal to criminals and other ineligible purchasers without facing any legal consequences. It also allows the industry to make available increasingly dangerous weapons and to fail to monitor inventory, even in the face of evidence that thousands of guns are being stolen from dealerships and end up in the hands of criminals.

In 2012, the gun industry made an estimated $11.7 billion in sales and $993 million in profits.75 There is no good reason for the firearms industry to receive special treatment in the hands of the law or to be immune from the same kind of civil lawsuits that are used to hold business practices accountable for the injuries they cause.

Pasted from <http://smartgunlaws.org/gun-safety-public-health-policy-recommendations-for-a-more-secure-america/#Immunity>

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Except for the ones where known violent people can possess a firearm, there is nothing else wrong with any of ^those^ 'facts & stats'.....

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Dumbass felon tries to get dealers to sell to him at gun show, gets 9 month sentence

 

He probably believed that there is some "gun show loophole" or something, or maybe believed that gun dealers will jump at the chance to make illegal sales.

 

 

According to a summary of evidence, Reaves, who now lives in Richmond, tried to persuade numerous federally licensed firearms dealers to sell him a gun privately and without a background check at the Showmasters gun show July 7 at the Richmond Raceway Complex.

 

The dealers refused and alerted state trooper D.M. Sottile, who eventually identified Reaves and arrested him after determining he had a felony record.

 

Cerullo, a former police officer who prosecutes many of Henrico’s gun crimes, said the case is indicative of the cooperation between firearms dealers at gun shows and state police to prevent guns from falling into the wrong hands.

 

Felons, and in many cases people with misdemeanor convictions, are prohibited by law from buying or possessing firearms. So are people who have been involuntarily committed for mental illness.

 

Sottile and other state troopers have developed a rapport with firearms dealers at Virginia gun shows, and those relationships have helped reduce illegal gun sales, authorities said.

 

“Licensed gun dealers play a major role in stopping illegal gun purchases, especially straw purchases,” Sottile said. “In my experience at gun shows and licensed firearms storefronts throughout the Richmond area, dealers have contacted me if they suspect someone — through his or her conversation with the customer or the customer’s odd behavior — is attempting to make an illegal purchase.”

 

Tom, are you repeating your former statement that there is no gun show loophole? Please explain.

 

The stats are that 40% of gun sales are unmonitored, as they fall outside of FFL's.

That 80% of criminal gun purchases come from private sales, and gun shows.

You could help with this problem. Think about it.

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Looks like about 40% of ^those^ are gang related (which no one gives a fuk about), another 35% were shot by criminal thugs whilst committing a crime (which I care VERY deeply about, but being criminals....they usually don't follow the same rules like us good guys do), another 10 or 15% are suicides (whatever, I don't lose sleep over people who wanna kill themselves....no matter how they do it) and the rest just seem like good old fashioned love triangles or little spats 'twixt friends that escalated to gun fire.

 

Oh well, got anything actually important you'd like to post, Jokey?....

 

Please read your words, Rick. Sweet Jeebus, how did you become so callous?

And from what platform can you dismiss such carnage?

 

I don't prefer ghetto street types either, but they are created equally, remember?

You show the same lack of enlightenment (IMO) about 10,000 gun suicides each year. Hint: this equates to hundreds of thousands of torn-up loved ones, per year.

 

Compassion and understanding are what separate us from the animal kingdom, no? Where is yours?

 

What did you learn from losing three friends and housemates to gunfire in your own dwelling (an '80's LA party house)?

Was that when your human spirit turned cold?

 

Mean, uncaring guys with guns, packing the US gun mentality, are a concern.

It's the SA Gun Club, playing to the SA Gun Club Choir.

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A gun is a gun like a knife is a knife like a rock is a rock like a marshmallow is a marshmallow. They're all inanimate objects, and are all perfectly safe. When not being held. Or used properly To think one is any more 'dangerous' than the others just shows what an emotional candy ass you truly are.. .....

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Yeah booth what did you learn from your gun nutter coke sniffing buddies getting gunned down?

 

And why weren't you there to help them

 

Troubling.

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The biggest lesson learned in that tragedy is that the Mariel Boat Lift let in waaaaaaaay too many criminals and parasitic scum.....

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The biggest lesson learned in that tragedy is that the Mariel Boat Lift let in waaaaaaaay too many criminals and parasitic scum.....

 

Oh, I suppose you have processed that triple gun homicide (at your own address) better than that, Senor. But that you are not strong enough to present the real Rick to us.

 

Regarding emotion: if you are as sexy as you say, you carry plenty of emotion yourself.

 

Cheers, Mariachi.

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Gawd damn, another fuking 'can't comprehend a fuking post' troll. That triple murder did NOT happen at my 'address', it happened at my friends own home. I was a hundred and twenty miles away in Palm Springs that day.

 

Jfc, quit making shit up like Gator and C-Poo....you're making yourself look more foolish than you did yesterday.....

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Dumbass felon tries to get dealers to sell to him at gun show, gets 9 month sentence

 

He probably believed that there is some "gun show loophole" or something, or maybe believed that gun dealers will jump at the chance to make illegal sales.

 

 

 

According to a summary of evidence, Reaves, who now lives in Richmond, tried to persuade numerous federally licensed firearms dealers to sell him a gun privately and without a background check at the Showmasters gun show July 7 at the Richmond Raceway Complex.

 

The dealers refused and alerted state trooper D.M. Sottile, who eventually identified Reaves and arrested him after determining he had a felony record.

 

Cerullo, a former police officer who prosecutes many of Henricos gun crimes, said the case is indicative of the cooperation between firearms dealers at gun shows and state police to prevent guns from falling into the wrong hands.

 

Felons, and in many cases people with misdemeanor convictions, are prohibited by law from buying or possessing firearms. So are people who have been involuntarily committed for mental illness.

 

Sottile and other state troopers have developed a rapport with firearms dealers at Virginia gun shows, and those relationships have helped reduce illegal gun sales, authorities said.

 

Licensed gun dealers play a major role in stopping illegal gun purchases, especially straw purchases, Sottile said. In my experience at gun shows and licensed firearms storefronts throughout the Richmond area, dealers have contacted me if they suspect someone through his or her conversation with the customer or the customers odd behavior is attempting to make an illegal purchase.

Tom, are you repeating your former statement that there is no gun show loophole? Please explain.

 

The stats are that 40% of gun sales are unmonitored, as they fall outside of FFL's.

That 80% of criminal gun purchases come from private sales, and gun shows.

You could help with this problem. Think about it.

If there is a loophole in any of our laws for gun shows, cite the law.

 

You can not because there is not one. Or you could be the very first to prove me wrong on that...

 

The stats are...

 

Sources of Criminals' Guns

 

crime-gun-sources.gif

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Jeebus H fackin keerist Jocal? Cantcha fathom that we both want the same thing? IF so - cantcha alos fathom the abysmal failure that prohibition, in ANY sense, has been in comparison to education, information and a positive campaign? Brudda - we're not so far apart, aside from the fact that you think "if there were no *** , there'd be less for everyone to feel sorry about".

 

I've been all around the world, and I know, from painful personal experience, that there are people who have NOTHING to gain from life other than the statement that they made as they leave it. I'm not willing to accept acquiescence as a path forward. You're smart enough to recognize that as much as we'd absolutely like it to be so, that disarming the public won't make it safer. The most effective deterrent to anti-social, violent behavior is and remains the fear in the mind of the prospective perpetuator, that "doing this" might end up badly for them. ANYTHING that we as a society can do to reinforce that discomfort oughta be lauded as a good thing.

 

 

You're up brudda - type something original, cut/paste BS is just that.

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I was never proud of owning a gun. It's basically a useless possession.

with your knowledge and skill set, that's no surprise.

actually, i am glad you got rid of it. you could have shot yourself................

 

I'm sad for the very same reason.......

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I urge you to re-think such statements. Because you are da man. You are unique, and could show constructive leadership.

Mmm, you show an inquisitive mind, overall, yet a certain blindness on this subject.

The guns may be inanimate, until they jump into action based on poisoned philosophies, many of which you actively promote.

My take, based on discourse with you and your pals here, is that you guys don't seem to know when to stop. so must be stopped by others. Sorry.

 

Jeff, two days ago you put quotation marks on the trend of our US gunplay. Let's review the "trend", without personal attacks if possible.

 

Jocal, no personal attacks here. But I'm sick and tired of you ignoring my posts directly to you and you ignoring them and then continue on as if I have never answered your questions. If you EVER FUCKING BOTHERED TO READ ANYTHING I'VE WRITTEN ABOUT THE SUBJECT, you wouldn't say what you say about "actively promoting" something. You are SO WRONG. So wrong, but you can't be bothered to actually listen for a change. You have your mind made up and you will not be swayed.

 

You talk at length about "gun culture", yet you don't even know what it really means. You talk about me and my elk actively promoting gun culture, yet you never bother to actually read what we say. You never have a discussion, you just talk AT us, drop some out of context article into a thread and then slink away for a while only to show up and do it again. Meanwhile NEVER bothering to read what's actually been posted as a LOGICAL counter to your BS.

 

So here, catch up on the conversation and get back to me when you actually know what I AM saying and promoting. Because right now, my friend - you don't have a fucking clue!

 

Gun promotion answered

 

Gun Culture Answered

 

More gun culture answers

 

More answers to your assertions

 

Please read these and respond. They were directly FOR YOU, Jocal. Yet you pointedly ignored me and continued on as if I hadn't typed a word. You can't have a one-way conversation.

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Hey jocal,

 

THIS is the "gun culture" that I and rest of us responsible gun owners (and the NRA) promote.

 

fs-5-26-20.gif

nrasportsmagazine-cover.jpg

AP050728017513.jpg

 

THIS is what Jocal's "Gun Culture" is:

 

1276725024-50cent.jpg

kill-your-brothers-because-it-is-cool.jp

 

Jocal, do you see a difference here? If you do, then explain to me in your own words how my competing in a match with a "sniper rifle" promotes what the later group of thugs does or behaves? I would REALLY REALLY like an answer to that question!!!!

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Tom, let it rest for a bit and see if Jocal responds. I'm betting he will continue to ignore me - but I'm hoping he will see my post to him and actually have something to say. If you keep bumping that with gun nutter stories, he will think he can ignore the question. He's kinda like the stray hiding under the porch..... you can't make any sudden movements or make loud noises or he'll never come out.

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Hey jocal,

 

THIS is the "gun culture" that I and rest of us responsible gun owners (and the NRA) promote.

 

fs-5-26-20.gif

nrasportsmagazine-cover.jpg

AP050728017513.jpg

 

THIS is what Jocal's "Gun Culture" is:

 

1276725024-50cent.jpg

kill-your-brothers-because-it-is-cool.jp

 

Jocal, do you see a difference here? If you do, then explain to me in your own words how my competing in a match with a "sniper rifle" promotes what the later group of thugs does or behaves? I would REALLY REALLY like an answer to that question!!!!

 

Bump.

 

Do we really think his reply will address the question that was posed?

 

 

 

http://youtu.be/j87KRL59H6Y

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Tom, let it rest for a bit and see if Jocal responds. I'm betting he will continue to ignore me - but I'm hoping he will see my post to him and actually have something to say. If you keep bumping that with gun nutter stories, he will think he can ignore the question. He's kinda like the stray hiding under the porch..... you can't make any sudden movements or make loud noises or he'll never come out.

 

But gun nutters keep striking again and again! Like this one:

 

18 yr old future Air Force gun nutter lures two men into his home, shoots one and the other departs

 

How could I not share that news with you? ;)

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Hey jocal,

 

THIS is the "gun culture" that I and rest of us responsible gun owners (and the NRA) promote.

 

THIS is what Jocal's "Gun Culture" is:

 

(photos snipped)

 

Jocal, do you see a difference here? If you do, then explain to me in your own words how my competing in a match with a "sniper rifle" promotes what the later group of thugs does or behaves? I would REALLY REALLY like an answer to that question!!!!

 

Jeff, I have studied your words for YEARS. Our best conversations have ended with your use of the word "cunt".

 

The gun culture I refer to is that of the SA Gun Club, as expressed (primarily by you, Boothy, and Tom Ray) on literally dozens of threads on PA. Pretty sketchy. I find that you are not honest with yourself. (One example: you deny the thrill of shooting, and your attachment to that thrill. WTF? Another example is that what you are selling is not contained to warm fuzzy pics of kids with guns on a firing range. A third example of your self-deciet is the first sentence of your post, above: the NRA is doing serious cultural damage on behalf of the gun lobby, Sir.)

 

The gun culture I refer to may be best exemplified by your suggestion that blowing away a creep who chucked used tires into someone else's dumpster (he was advancing with threatening fists) is "self defense". It's just not acceptable. Your mentality is scary, and uncivilized. In a thread (which you started) you offered that some new, devastating military ordnance is "cute". Not acceptable, Jeff, but I am glad to have met you.

 

Address the subject of the tire chucker directly, without being abusive, and I may continue the discourse.

Take it easy..............

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Hey jocal,

 

THIS is the "gun culture" that I and rest of us responsible gun owners (and the NRA) promote.

 

THIS is what Jocal's "Gun Culture" is:

 

(photos snipped)

 

Jocal, do you see a difference here? If you do, then explain to me in your own words how my competing in a match with a "sniper rifle" promotes what the later group of thugs does or behaves? I would REALLY REALLY like an answer to that question!!!!

 

Jeff, I have studied your words for YEARS. Our best conversations have ended with your use of the word "cunt".

 

The gun culture I refer to is that of the SA Gun Club, as expressed (primarily by you, Boothy, and Tom Ray) on literally dozens of threads on PA. Pretty sketchy. I find that you are not honest with yourself. (One example: you deny the thrill of shooting, and your attachment to that thrill. WTF? Another example is that what you are selling is not contained to warm fuzzy pics of kids with guns on a firing range. A third example of your self-deciet is the first sentence of your post, above: the NRA is doing serious cultural damage on behalf of the gun lobby, Sir.)

 

The gun culture I refer to may be best exemplified by your suggestion that blowing away a creep who chucked used tires into someone else's dumpster (he was advancing with threatening fists) is "self defense". It's just not acceptable. Your mentality is scary, and uncivilized. In a thread (which you started) you offered that some new, devastating military ordnance is "cute". Not acceptable, Jeff, but I am glad to have met you.

 

Address the subject of the tire chucker directly, without being abusive, and I may continue the discourse.

Take it easy..............

 

Fists can be life altering, it is foolish to treat physical attacks without a weapon as something that does not warrant self defense using whatever means are at one's disposal. I have seen enough TBI victims to know that I would rather be six feet under than to live that way. I am very glad that D'Ranger's situation was resolved with nobody in a hospital or worse, but there are also plenty of cases where a physical attack against an unarmed person ensues and that unarmed person ends up a hollowed out shell of their former self. I really, really wish that the pro gun control folks would stop with this bullshit that somehow it is wrong to defend yourself or your family against an aggressor who is not armed with a gun.

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Friday: A 16-year-old girl was shot in the leg while walking home from a football game in Tampa, Fla., Friday night.



A 16-year-old boy was killed in a drive-by shooting in northwest Lakeland, Fla., late Thursday.



Two teenagers were hit by gunfire at a homecoming parade in Clarksdale, Miss., Friday night, and a 17-year-old was arrested.



Josh Marks, 26, a “MasterChef” finalist, was found dead of a self-inflicted gunshot wound in the Longwood Manor neighborhood of Chicago, Ill., Friday night.



A man was shot multiple times and seriously wounded inside a barber shop on the north side of Cincinnati, Ohio, Friday afternoon.



Two people were wounded when someone opened fire on a group of people in front of a barber shop in Altadena, Calif., Friday night.



Two people are dead after a bar fight sparked a shooting in Ocala, Fla., early Friday.



One man shot another man after an argument in a store in Clarkston, Ga., Friday morning.



Two men were killed and a third man was wounded in a shooting outside a house party on the southeast side of Tucson, Ariz., Friday night.



A man walked into a police station with a gunshot wound on the north side of Pittsburgh, Pa., Friday evening.



A woman was accidentally shot in a home in Etna Township, Ohio, Friday night. A 19-year-old man was injured an apparent drive-by shooting in Newman, Calif., Thursday evening.



A 23-year-old man was wounded during a gang-related shooting in central Fresno, Calif., Friday night.



A 25-year-old man was shot and killed in the parking lot of a bank in Detroit, Mich., early Friday.



Two people were shot and wounded after a fight among a group of men at an apartment complex in northeast Charlotte, N.C., Friday night.



A 41-year-old man was shot in the back and wounded in Bordeaux, Tenn., Friday night.



Kimberly Kilgore, 21, was shot and killed during a road rage incident in the parking lot of an apartment complex in Kennesaw, Ga., early Friday.



Harry McCabe, 61, and his sister, Kathleen Verdecchio, 62, were found shot to death in a murder-suicide in an apartment in Upper Darby, Pa., Thursday afternoon.



A woman and a man were found shot to death in a murder-suicide in Henry, Ill., Friday morning. 44-year-old Jeffrey Lasher was shot in the head and wounded by a friend who attacked him without warning in Osterville, Mass., Friday morning.



Kristopher Hoyt, 36, was shot and killed in Acampo, Calif., early Friday.



A man was shot and killed at an apartment complex in northern Aurora, Colo., Thursday night.



25-year-old Lonnie Jermaine Hines was shot and killed in a home in Vass, N.C., late Thursday.



Carnell A. Ashford, 31, was killed and Domanque D. Hinkle, 26, and Darius Ashford, 23, were wounded in a shooting in the backyard of a home in Peoria, Ill., early Friday.



One person was shot in the leg outside a Panama City, Fla., strip club early Friday.


77-year-old Johnny Nile Condia was shot and killed during a carjacking in Raleigh County, W.Va., Friday evening.



Lonnie Cogdill, 42, was found shot to death in his home in Greenwood, S.C., late Friday. A shooting left a man injured in Schenectady, N.Y., Friday evening.



Lorenzo Puebla Hernandez, 47, was shot and killed while walking home in Durham, N.C., Friday night. Jose Manuel Ramos, 24, was shot and wounded south of Martinsville, Va., Friday night.



24-year-old Jamel Alexander Knight was shot and killed after being approached by two men who opened fire outside a home in Virginia Beach, Va., Friday night.



Two people were critically injured during a shooting at Holgate Transit Station in Portland, Ore., late Friday. Mallory Britt, 25, was shot in the leg during a home invasion in Fayetteville, Ark., late Friday.



23-year-old Brandon Wilborn was shot and killed during an argument with an acquaintance in Calumet City, Ind., Friday evening.



A 20-year-old man was shot in the back and wounded following a dispute in Kingston, N.Y., Thursday night, and a 15-year-old was arrested.



Two Jefferson County, Mo., deputies were shot and wounded during a confrontation with a suspect in a home in the Cedar Hill area early Friday.



Jerome King was shot twice and wounded by his brother during a property dispute in Evarts, Ky., Friday afternoon. A man and a woman were wounded in a shooting in the Frayser area of Memphis, Tenn., Friday evening.



One person was hospitalized in a shooting in Charlotte, N.C., Friday night.



A man was shot twice in the back and killed outside a home in Violet, La., Friday night.



Detective Michael Spencer of the FBI Safe Streets Task Force was shot in the leg and wounded while approaching a suspect in the Creekwood community of New Hanover County, N.C., Thursday, and the suspect, 30-year-old Brandon Davone Smith, was killed by police three days later.



Saturday: A 15-year-old boy was shot to death during a brawl in a shopping center parking lot in south Sacramento, Calif., Saturday afternoon.



A 49-year-old woman was found lying in the middle of the road, dying of a gunshot wound in Germantown, Md., Saturday morning.



A teenage boy was shot and critically wounded on the southeast side of Fort Wayne, Ind., Saturday evening.



Stephanie Terlisner, 28, who was pregnant, was shot and killed during a robbery at a home in the southeast Oak Cliff section of Dallas, Tex., Saturday night.



Michael Shepherd, 33, and John Bowers, 70, were shot and killed after a fight in Wintersville, Ohio, early Saturday.



38-year-old Lisa Roach was found shot and killed in a camper in Hopkinsville, Ky., early Saturday, and her husband, 49-year-old Dennis Sills, was charged with murder.



One person was shot and killed in Lebanon, Tenn., Saturday morning.



A man was hospitalized after a shooting in Longview, Tex., late Saturday.



A man was shot in the chest and wounded at a motel in Walterboro, S.C., Saturday night.



Marrico McGuire, 21, and an unidentified 23-year-old man were killed, and a 23-year-old man was critically injured, in a shooting outside a bar in Tulsa, Okla., early Saturday.



Later that night in Tulsa, five people between the ages of 30 and 60 were injured when a man opened fire at a Hmong New Year’s celebration.



Robbie L. Lee, 37, was found shot and killed inside a home in Kansas City, Mo., Saturday night.



Two people were hospitalized after a shooting in El Centro, Calif., early Saturday.



A 22-year-old was shot in the thigh while walking near an elementary school in Des Moines, Iowa, Saturday night.



Two people were killed and two people were wounded in three separate shootings in Milwaukee, Wis., early Saturday.



Christian Lamar Griggs, 23, was shot and killed at a home in Angier, N.C., Saturday morning, and the suspect, a local pastor and the victim’s father-in-law, was said to have acted in self-defense.



23-year-old Victor Rasheem Russell was killed and a 23-year-old man was injured in a shooting at a Newport News, Va., hotel early Saturday.



A 29-year-old man was shot and killed by his roommate at a home in Avon, Ohio, Saturday evening.



32-year-old Antoinette Finch was shot dead in front of her teenage son during a fight outside her home in Louisville, Ky., Saturday night.



A 24-year-old man was shot and killed by someone in a passing vehicle while standing in front of an apartment complex in Westmont, an unincorporated area of Los Angeles, Calif., early Saturday.



27-year-old Jessie Cavett was shot and killed in Gesham, Ore., Saturday, and her estranged husband, 36-year-old Joshua R. Cavett, was arrested.



A man is in critical condition following a shooting outside a nightclub in Arlington, Fla., early Saturday.



One man was killed and another man was hospitalized following a shooting in Flint, Mich., Saturday night, 18 hours after a man was shot and killed elsewhere in the city.



A man was shot in the arm during an argument in Panama City, Fla., Saturday afternoon.



A 35-year-old man was shot and wounded while trying to break up a fight inside the Tejano Knight’s Club in Corpus Christi, Tex., early Saturday.



A man in his early 20s was shot in the leg on the steps of an apartment complex in north Richmond, Va., Saturday morning.



Demarcus L. Robinson was shot and killed in a home in Lancaster County, S.C., early Saturday.



Two men, 19 and 23, were shot and wounded while sitting with friends in the driveway of a home in Cathedral City, Calif., early Saturday.



A 19-year old man suffering from two gunshot wounds was dropped off at a hospital emergency room in Grants Pass, Ore., Saturday morning.



A man was wounded and a woman was critically injured in a shooting in the parking lot of a Waffle House in Cocoa Beach, Fla., early Saturday.



A man was shot in the chest multiple times and killed during a card game in Cleveland, Ohio, early Saturday.



Minutes later, in a separate shooting at a Cleveland sports bar, two people were wounded during a fight.



Tyshawn Long, 34, was shot and wounded in Fulton, Mo., early Saturday.



A 53-year old-man is in critical condition after being shot multiple times in Wichita, Kan., early Saturday.



A man was killed in a shooting in northeast Oklahoma City, Okla., early Saturday.



A woman was shot to death in her boyfriend’s yard in Orlando, Fla., early Saturday.



A woman was shot in the leg and wounded at an apartment complex in Meridian, Miss., Saturday night.



A 23-year-old woman was shot and wounded by her 67-year-old ex-boyfriend, who then shot and killed himself, in north Las Vegas, Nev., Saturday afternoon.



A 29-year old was shot and wounded in Newark, N.J., Saturday night.



Timothy Bernard Roberts, 37, was found near his bicycle suffering from a gunshot wound in Savannah, Ga., Saturday night.



James Eddie Merkson, 30, was shot and killed in the courtyard of an apartment building in San Berardino, Calif., Saturday night.



Paula Michelle Murray, 44, was shot and killed at a home in west Greensboro, N.C., Saturday night. A man was shot four times and wounded during a home invasion in Vidalia, Miss., Saturday morning.



Sharon Contreras, 47, was shot and killed in Yonkers, N.Y., late Saturday, and her husband, 52-year-old Jose Contreras, was arrested. 29-year-old Joseph Deneil White was found an apartment complex dead of a gunshot wound in Pascagoula, Miss., late Saturday.



Sunday: 16-year-old DeAndre Rickettsia was shot and killed during a birthday party in a mobile home near Raeford, N.C., early Sunday.



An 18-year-old woman, a freshman at the University of South Carolina, was accidentally shot in the back and wounded during a firefight between two men in the midst of an argument in the Five Points neighborhood of Columbia, S.C., early Sunday.



Florantina Nelson, 26, was standing on the porch of a home in Rochester, N.Y., when a fight broke out and she was shot early Sunday.



A man was shot in the jaw and wounded outside a north Houston, Tex., nightclub early Sunday. A man was shot in the head and killed behind a bar in Wilkes-Barre, Pa., early Sunday.



Four people were injured in three shootings in Indianapolis, Ind., early Sunday, including a woman and a man who were critically injured.



A young woman was found dead of gunshot wounds in Riverton, N.J., early Sunday, marking the town’s first homicide in 30 years.



Two young men were injured, one critically, in a gang-related shooting in Salt Lake City, Utah, early Sunday.



A shooting in the Iberville neighborhood of New Orleans, La., left a man wounded Sunday night.



Reginald Antwine Hayes Sr., 31, was killed and another man was wounded in a shooting outside a bar in Minneappolis, Minn., early Sunday. David Carrender, 49, was taken into custody in connection with the shooting death of his son, whose name and age were not disclosed, in Martinsville, Ind., Sunday night.



A man was shot in the chest and killed in Jersey City, N.J., early Sunday.



Saeid Ghodaushim, 57, was shot and killed in South Gate, Calif., Sunday afternoon.



Two men were wounded when a fight broke out and someone pulled a gun outside a restaurant in Hollywood, Calif., early Sunday.



44-year-old Sherry Lynn Langley was shot and killed in Longville, La., Sunday afternoon, and her husband, 51-year-old Randal Langley, was arrested.



Sequon Starks, 20, was shot in the torso and killed in Weldon, N.C., early Sunday, and Dashawn Hendricks, 16, was arrested.



Michael Green, 26, and Danielle Bowe, 25, were found shot and killed in a car in Wilmington, Del., early Sunday.



Frank Kennedy, a training officer for the West Virginia Division of Homeland Security, shot and wounded himself in Rutledge, W.Va., Sunday.



A man was shot in the leg and wounded at an apartment complex on the south side of Des Moines, Iowa, Sunday.



A man in his late 20s was found shot to death on a sidewalk in Belle Glade, Fla., early Sunday.



Jamarcia Wade, 18, was shot and wounded after fighting with another teenager in Shreveport, La., Sunday afternoon.



Two people were wounded when a vehicle pulled up alongside theirs and began shooting in East Ridge, Tenn., early Sunday.



A man was shot three times and wounded during a drive-by shooting in Hartford, Conn., early Sunday.



24-year-old Darion Reese was killed and a woman was wounded in a shooting that stemmed from an argument in Brookhaven, Mo., Sunday afternoon.



A shooting left a man in critical condition in east Wichita, Kan., late Sunday.



A man was shot and wounded in Rio Grande City, Tex., Sunday evening.



24-year-old Lamont Adams was shot and killed in College Hill, Ohio, late Sunday.



Telvin Morgan was shot and critically wounded at an East Spencer, N.C., apartment complex Sunday evening.



A 19-year-old man was shot in the arm when someone fired several shots at him from an S.U.V. in Paterson, N.J., Sunday morning.



Two men, both 26, were wounded in two separate shootings in St. Louis, Mo., early Sunday.



Around the same time in St. Louis, Timothy Blair, 45, and Kemesa Newble, 32, were shot and killed when a fight at a sports bar spilled out into the street.



Catalina Ortiz, 21, was found shot to death in a home in Lorain, Ohio, early Sunday.



A 21-year-old man was shot and killed and four others were wounded in Philadelphia, Pa., early Sunday.



A man was killed and at least eight people were wounded in shootings across Chicago, Ill., since Friday afternoon; all the victims were in their 20s.



According to Slate’s gun-death tracker, an estimated 9,297 people have died as a result of gun violence in America since the Newtown massacre on December 14, 2012.


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In related news, the Internet is facing a bit shortage due to indiscriminate cutting and pasting of large amounts of irrelevant material which is never read. Wasteful.... very very wasteful. Authorities say that if the offenders are not reined in, people may be faced with the prospect of using pencils and paper or in the most extreme cases talking to live people occupying the same physical space as them.

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Hey jocal,

 

THIS is the "gun culture" that I and rest of us responsible gun owners (and the NRA) promote.

 

THIS is what Jocal's "Gun Culture" is:

 

(photos snipped)

 

Jocal, do you see a difference here? If you do, then explain to me in your own words how my competing in a match with a "sniper rifle" promotes what the later group of thugs does or behaves? I would REALLY REALLY like an answer to that question!!!!

 

Jeff, I have studied your words for YEARS. Our best conversations have ended with your use of the word "cunt".

 

The gun culture I refer to is that of the SA Gun Club, as expressed (primarily by you, Boothy, and Tom Ray) on literally dozens of threads on PA. Pretty sketchy. I find that you are not honest with yourself. (One example: you deny the thrill of shooting, and your attachment to that thrill. WTF? Another example is that what you are selling is not contained to warm fuzzy pics of kids with guns on a firing range. A third example of your self-deciet is the first sentence of your post, above: the NRA is doing serious cultural damage on behalf of the gun lobby, Sir.)

 

The gun culture I refer to may be best exemplified by your suggestion that blowing away a creep who chucked used tires into someone else's dumpster (he was advancing with threatening fists) is "self defense". It's just not acceptable. Your mentality is scary, and uncivilized. In a thread (which you started) you offered that some new, devastating military ordnance is "cute". Not acceptable, Jeff, but I am glad to have met you.

 

Address the subject of the tire chucker directly, without being abusive, and I may continue the discourse.

Take it easy..............

 

Fists can be life altering, it is foolish to treat physical attacks without a weapon as something that does not warrant self defense using whatever means are at one's disposal. I have seen enough TBI victims to know that I would rather be six feet under than to live that way. I am very glad that D'Ranger's situation was resolved with nobody in a hospital or worse, but there are also plenty of cases where a physical attack against an unarmed person ensues and that unarmed person ends up a hollowed out shell of their former self. I really, really wish that the pro gun control folks would stop with this bullshit that somehow it is wrong to defend yourself or your family against an aggressor who is not armed with a gun.

 

Len, allow me to begin by saying I gain from your posts (same to Atoyot and The Chesapeakster). Always thoughtful, always measured. But it's now a matter of taking the higher road and confronting the gun lobby, and gunslingers, when it comes to our guns.

 

Vigilantism is what it is, and a massively armed population, motivated by "self defense", is a population of vigilantes. The behavior, the by-product of a certain philosophy, is disgusting, IMO.

 

It is a clear degeneration of the United States which our parents left us, where it was assumed daily sidearms were unnecessary. The gun mindset is a poison.

 

Here's an example from law enforcement: 63 cops suspended, fired, and disciplined for a car chase in Ohio.

The unarmed perps, fleeing on foot, were possible lowlifes with criminal records and cocaine in their systems; they wound up with 23 and 24 bullet perforations, respectively. The police motivation at the time? Attempted vehicular homicide.

 

I am hoping that we just get a grip, and not have the guns do the thinking for us. My thanks to the Cleveland police commissioners for taking a stand.

Maybe such temperance will prevail upon the SA Gun Club someday.

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Len, allow me to begin by saying I gain from your posts (same to Atoyot and The Chesapeakster). Always thoughtful, always measured. But it's now a matter of taking the higher road and confronting the gun lobby, and gunslingers, when it comes to our guns.

 

Vigilantism is what it is, and a massively armed population, motivated by "self defense", is a population of vigilantes. The behavior, the by-product of a certain philosophy, is disgusting, IMO.

 

It is a clear degeneration of the United States which our parents left us, where it was assumed daily sidearms were unnecessary. The gun mindset is a poison.

 

Here's an example from law enforcement: 63 cops suspended, fired, and disciplined for a car chase in Ohio.

The unarmed perps, fleeing on foot, were possible lowlifes with criminal records and cocaine in their systems; they wound up with 23 and 24 bullet perforations, respectively. The police motivation at the time? Attempted vehicular homicide.

 

I am hoping that we just get a grip, and not have the guns do the thinking for us. My thanks to the Cleveland police commissioners for taking a stand.

Maybe such temperance will prevail upon the SA Gun Club someday.

 

There is no law which is going to make you happy, because no law can change what is in a man's heart and that is the thing you have a problem with. The biggest difference you can make is simply to be nice to people and hope that the ripple effect thaws a few hearts along the way. Do more good than harm as you walk through life. I think you have also been posting without reading here, as I am the most radical opponent of gun control on the board here. Jeff, Booth, Tom, all support one or more laws I oppose. So while I appreciate you find me reasonable, it can not possibly be because you agree with me more than Jeff or Booth or Tom.

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In related news, the Internet is facing a bit shortage due to indiscriminate cutting and pasting of large amounts of irrelevant material which is never read. Wasteful.... very very wasteful. Authorities say that if the offenders are not reined in, people may be faced with the prospect of using pencils and paper or in the most extreme cases talking to live people occupying the same physical space as them.

 

Irrelevant? Hardly. I count 109 documented gun shootings in one weekend there. It speaks to the enormity of the problem. Let's face it.

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It is a clear degeneration of the United States which our parents left us, where it was assumed daily sidearms were unnecessary. The gun mindset is a poison.

 

 

Are you fuking kidding us? Gun ownership and gun use has been woven into the fabric of America since Day One. There have been no 'down times' since the 1600's when they were deemed unnecessary, useless or otherwise verbotten to own and/or use. Appropriately. To think that our parents did NOT use and own firearms back in the 40's,50's or 60's is completely fuking incorrect. Especially given the fact that they were affordable, they were available everywhere (department stores, gas stations, sporting goods stores, many super markets and yes, even in 7-11's) and there was NO stigma associated with everyone in the family owning one. Just ask any ex-Boy Scout that's your folks age. Or their school teachers/principals.....who actually ALLOWED us to bring firearms on campus.

 

Jfc, you're really trying my patients this year......

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In related news, the Internet is facing a bit shortage due to indiscriminate cutting and pasting of large amounts of irrelevant material which is never read. Wasteful.... very very wasteful. Authorities say that if the offenders are not reined in, people may be faced with the prospect of using pencils and paper or in the most extreme cases talking to live people occupying the same physical space as them.

 

Irrelevant? Hardly. I count 109 documented gun shootings in one weekend there. It speaks to the enormity of the problem. Let's face it.

 

 

Indeed so - let's face it. The longer we wait, the worse it will be, and the harder it will get to make the necessary societal changes. When do we stop telling people that it's OK when their bad behavior negatively impacts those around them?

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In related news, the Internet is facing a bit shortage due to indiscriminate cutting and pasting of large amounts of irrelevant material which is never read. Wasteful.... very very wasteful. Authorities say that if the offenders are not reined in, people may be faced with the prospect of using pencils and paper or in the most extreme cases talking to live people occupying the same physical space as them.

 

Irrelevant? Hardly. I count 109 documented gun shootings in one weekend there. It speaks to the enormity of the problem. Let's face it.

 

 

Indeed so - let's face it. The longer we wait, the worse it will be, and the harder it will get to make the necessary societal changes. When do we stop telling people that it's OK when their bad behavior negatively impacts those around them?

 

You can't do it until they are at least 26 because there of the potential to damage their self esteem.

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It is a clear degeneration of the United States which our parents left us, where it was assumed daily sidearms were unnecessary. The gun mindset is a poison.

 

 

Are you fuking kidding us? Gun ownership and gun use has been woven into the fabric of America since Day One. There have been no 'down times' since the 1600's when they were deemed unnecessary, useless or otherwise verbotten to own and/or use. Appropriately. To think that our parents did NOT use and own firearms back in the 40's,50's or 60's is completely fuking incorrect. Especially given the fact that they were affordable, they were available everywhere (department stores, gas stations, sporting goods stores, many super markets and yes, even in 7-11's) and there was NO stigma associated with everyone in the family owning one. Just ask any ex-Boy Scout that's your folks age. Or their school teachers/principals.....who actually ALLOWED us to bring firearms on campus.

 

Jfc, you're really trying my patients this year......

they had recreational firearms. They didn't "pack heat"

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It is a clear degeneration of the United States which our parents left us, where it was assumed daily sidearms were unnecessary. The gun mindset is a poison.

 

 

Are you fuking kidding us? Gun ownership and gun use has been woven into the fabric of America since Day One. There have been no 'down times' since the 1600's when they were deemed unnecessary, useless or otherwise verbotten to own and/or use. Appropriately. To think that our parents did NOT use and own firearms back in the 40's,50's or 60's is completely fuking incorrect. Especially given the fact that they were affordable, they were available everywhere (department stores, gas stations, sporting goods stores, many super markets and yes, even in 7-11's) and there was NO stigma associated with everyone in the family owning one. Just ask any ex-Boy Scout that's your folks age. Or their school teachers/principals.....who actually ALLOWED us to bring firearms on campus.

 

Jfc, you're really trying my patients this year......

they had recreational firearms. They didn't "pack heat"

 

For the most part that is who owns guns today, the difference is that now there is a large contingent of people trying to make that illegal.

 

 

BTW. I forgot my revolver last time I was out bow hunting and had a close encounter with a 600lb bear and it's 300lb friend. Everyone asked me why I was not carrying a revolver as backup. I don't know if you have bears that size out there or whether they are just more polite, but that is the last time I go out without something that can go bang if I turn from predator to prey.

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Guest

 

Hey jocal,

 

THIS is the "gun culture" that I and rest of us responsible gun owners (and the NRA) promote.

 

THIS is what Jocal's "Gun Culture" is:

 

(photos snipped)

 

Jocal, do you see a difference here? If you do, then explain to me in your own words how my competing in a match with a "sniper rifle" promotes what the later group of thugs does or behaves? I would REALLY REALLY like an answer to that question!!!!

Jeff, I have studied your words for YEARS. Our best conversations have ended with your use of the word "cunt".

 

The gun culture I refer to is that of the SA Gun Club, as expressed (primarily by you, Boothy, and Tom Ray) on literally dozens of threads on PA. Pretty sketchy. I find that you are not honest with yourself. (One example: you deny the thrill of shooting, and your attachment to that thrill. WTF? Another example is that what you are selling is not contained to warm fuzzy pics of kids with guns on a firing range. A third example of your self-deciet is the first sentence of your post, above: the NRA is doing serious cultural damage on behalf of the gun lobby, Sir.)

 

The gun culture I refer to may be best exemplified by your suggestion that blowing away a creep who chucked used tires into someone else's dumpster (he was advancing with threatening fists) is "self defense". It's just not acceptable. Your mentality is scary, and uncivilized. In a thread (which you started) you offered that some new, devastating military ordnance is "cute". Not acceptable, Jeff, but I am glad to have met you.

 

Address the subject of the tire chucker directly, without being abusive, and I may continue the discourse.

Take it easy..............

I haven't called you a cunt in a long time and I've been very nice and respectful to you as of late.

 

Answer my DIRECT questions and ill answer yours. Nice diversion btw, but it ain't working. The subject is "gun culture" and you're ignoring the point and looking in the wrong places. The so called SA gun club isn't the problem. The differences in the pics I posted above ARE the problem. The latter set of pics are the "gun culture" that is the problem. The former is not. The former is the gun culture I subscribe to an promote. Please tell me where your problem with that is.

 

Btw - I'm headed to the US (boarding in about 5 min) on a business trip and will get in some shooting this weekend. Likely some long range rifle stuff, some AR blasting and some pistol work. I might even get in a day of coyote hunting (inshallah). I can 100% guarantee you that no humans will be harmed in any of these activities. How is what I'm doing contributing or in any way connected to your 109 cut n paste BS? Serious question. But I know you won't answer like usual.

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In related news, the Internet is facing a bit shortage due to indiscriminate cutting and pasting of large amounts of irrelevant material which is never read. Wasteful.... very very wasteful. Authorities say that if the offenders are not reined in, people may be faced with the prospect of using pencils and paper or in the most extreme cases talking to live people occupying the same physical space as them.

 

Irrelevant? Hardly. I count 109 documented gun shootings in one weekend there. It speaks to the enormity of the problem. Let's face it.

 

I notice you didn't paste them with the links this time, making it harder for me to identify the ones that are self-defense shootings so I can ask you questions you will not answer.

 

Your silence strongly suggests you think Ms. Mason should have just laid back and thought of England, you know...

 

I think mixing self-defense cases like hers and the others I have picked out of your long copy/pastes with violent crimes is dishonest.

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It is a clear degeneration of the United States which our parents left us, where it was assumed daily sidearms were unnecessary. The gun mindset is a poison.

 

Are you fuking kidding us? Gun ownership and gun use has been woven into the fabric of America since Day One. There have been no 'down times' since the 1600's when they were deemed unnecessary, useless or otherwise verbotten to own and/or use. Appropriately. To think that our parents did NOT use and own firearms back in the 40's,50's or 60's is completely fuking incorrect. Especially given the fact that they were affordable, they were available everywhere (department stores, gas stations, sporting goods stores, many super markets and yes, even in 7-11's) and there was NO stigma associated with everyone in the family owning one. Just ask any ex-Boy Scout that's your folks age. Or their school teachers/principals.....who actually ALLOWED us to bring firearms on campus.

 

Jfc, you're really trying my patients this year......

 

they had recreational firearms. They didn't "pack heat"

The pilgrims may or may not have had guns but if they did it was bot for self defense

 

You guys seem to have ingested some of that stuff produced by Bellesiles. They took away his tenure and Bancroft prize for good reasons. You should try a history book instead. Their guns were hardly recreational and were primarily for self-defense and hunting.

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In related news, the Internet is facing a bit shortage due to indiscriminate cutting and pasting of large amounts of irrelevant material which is never read. Wasteful.... very very wasteful. Authorities say that if the offenders are not reined in, people may be faced with the prospect of using pencils and paper or in the most extreme cases talking to live people occupying the same physical space as them.

 

Irrelevant? Hardly. I count 109 documented gun shootings in one weekend there. It speaks to the enormity of the problem. Let's face it.

 

I notice you didn't paste them with the links this time, making it harder for me to identify the ones that are self-defense shootings so I can ask you questions you will not answer.

 

Your silence strongly suggests you think Ms. Mason should have just laid back and thought of England, you know...

 

I think mixing self-defense cases like hers and the others I have picked out of your long copy/pastes with violent crimes is dishonest.

 

It's a package deal. Valid self defense uses occur, as verified by the recent CDC figures. Do they offset the senseless gun mahem? No. Show me the study that says they do.

 

When you allow proliferation of un-registered guns (I'm with Blackjenner on that one), then handcuff the background checks, what do you expect?

 

Hey, I hold no single, magic solution. But when you propose guns as a solution to the populace at large, a certain percentage of humans screw up.

In fact, several LE officers screwed up just last weekend, and you're the guy preaching NO BADGE REQUIRED, no?

 

My own strong take on it is that guns and their use need to be discouraged. That it's on the upwardly mobile to be something more than gunslingers.

With better studies we may know how to navigate this: the lack of viable study falls on the NRA. Few here have criticized that bit, for a shame.

 

Tom, you may need to get over what happened to your wonderful wife. Fear seems to be driving your behavior... But ginning up gunfire across the 50 states? Oh, please...

 

Thank you for openly examining, and re-considering, the SYG debacle, Tom.

That link can be found by Googling Joe Nocera, the Daily Gun Report. All the best.

 

Joe Calhoun

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In related news, the Internet is facing a bit shortage due to indiscriminate cutting and pasting of large amounts of irrelevant material which is never read. Wasteful.... very very wasteful. Authorities say that if the offenders are not reined in, people may be faced with the prospect of using pencils and paper or in the most extreme cases talking to live people occupying the same physical space as them.

 

Irrelevant? Hardly. I count 109 documented gun shootings in one weekend there. It speaks to the enormity of the problem. Let's face it.

 

I notice you didn't paste them with the links this time, making it harder for me to identify the ones that are self-defense shootings so I can ask you questions you will not answer.

 

Your silence strongly suggests you think Ms. Mason should have just laid back and thought of England, you know...

 

I think mixing self-defense cases like hers and the others I have picked out of your long copy/pastes with violent crimes is dishonest.

 

It's a package deal. Valid self defense uses occur, as verified by the recent CDC figures. Do they offset the senseless gun mahem? No. Show me the study that says they do.

 

When you allow proliferation of un-registered guns (I'm with Blackjenner on that one), then handcuff the background checks, what do you expect?

 

Hey, I hold no single, magic solution. But when you propose guns as a solution to the populace at large, a certain percentage of humans screw up.

In fact, several LE officers screwed up just last weekend, and you're the guy preaching NO BADGE REQUIRED, no?

 

My own strong take on it is that guns and their use need to be discouraged. That it's on the upwardly mobile to be something more than gunslingers.

With better studies we may know how to navigate this: the lack of viable study falls on the NRA. Few here have criticized that bit, for a shame.

 

Tom, you may need to get over what happened to your wonderful wife. Fear seems to be driving your behavior... But ginning up gunfire across the 50 states? Oh, please...

 

Thank you for openly examining, and re-considering, the SYG debacle, Tom.

 

Joe Calhoun

 

The bolded portion of your statement is something that noone here is advocating - more guns the solution? That's a bit of a stretch from the oft-repeated position that questions the inefficacy of hastily enacted prohibitions.

 

My own strong take on it is that the improper and illegal attacks on innocents guns and their use need to be discouraged - I think that reads a bit better, eh?

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Tell ya what----you figure out how to stop the river of single moms and kids with no dads, how to stop crime and get our fuking bleeding heart judges to start dropping the hammer on violent criminals and giving them REAL LONG prison sentences (instead of little mini vacations), then, and only then, can you come back here and try your hand at 'disarming' law abiding citizens. In the meantime, those of us here will continue to arm ourselves, to fight fire with fire, and to protect our own lives and the lives of our loved ones---the way we see fit...and within the legal confines of our existing gun laws.

 

You, on the other hand, Mr. Gun Owning Hipocrite, can do wetf you want. Just do NOT attempt to impede us responsible gun owners with your pablumatic cut & pastes, or your Berkleyesque views on how you think we should conduct ourselves. Because we are not the problem....just the solution.......

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Hey jocal,

 

THIS is the "gun culture" that I and rest of us responsible gun owners (and the NRA) promote.

 

THIS is what Jocal's "Gun Culture" is:

 

(photos snipped)

 

Jocal, do you see a difference here? If you do, then explain to me in your own words how my competing in a match with a "sniper rifle" promotes what the later group of thugs does or behaves? I would REALLY REALLY like an answer to that question!!!!

Jeff, I have studied your words for YEARS. Our best conversations have ended with your use of the word "cunt".

 

The gun culture I refer to is that of the SA Gun Club, as expressed (primarily by you, Boothy, and Tom Ray) on literally dozens of threads on PA. Pretty sketchy. I find that you are not honest with yourself. (One example: you deny the thrill of shooting, and your attachment to that thrill. WTF? Another example is that what you are selling is not contained to warm fuzzy pics of kids with guns on a firing range. A third example of your self-deciet is the first sentence of your post, above: the NRA is doing serious cultural damage on behalf of the gun lobby, Sir.)

 

The gun culture I refer to may be best exemplified by your suggestion that blowing away a creep who chucked used tires into someone else's dumpster (he was advancing with threatening fists) is "self defense". It's just not acceptable. Your mentality is scary, and uncivilized. In a thread (which you started) you offered that some new, devastating military ordnance is "cute". Not acceptable, Jeff, but I am glad to have met you.

 

Address the subject of the tire chucker directly, without being abusive, and I may continue the discourse.

Take it easy..............

I haven't called you a cunt in a long time and I've been very nice and respectful to you as of late.

 

Answer my DIRECT questions and ill answer yours. Nice diversion btw, but it ain't working. The subject is "gun culture" and you're ignoring the point and looking in the wrong places. The so called SA gun club isn't the problem. The differences in the pics I posted above ARE the problem. The latter set of pics are the "gun culture" that is the problem. The former is not. The former is the gun culture I subscribe to an promote. Please tell me where your problem with that is.

 

Btw - I'm headed to the US (boarding in about 5 min) on a business trip and will get in some shooting this weekend. Likely some long range rifle stuff, some AR blasting and some pistol work. I might even get in a day of coyote hunting (inshallah). I can 100% guarantee you that no humans will be harmed in any of these activities. How is what I'm doing contributing or in any way connected to your 109 cut n paste BS? Serious question. But I know you won't answer like usual.

 

 

Jeff. I offered you a deal, and I shall stand by it. When you explain the rationale for coaching others to blow away a shirtless tire-chucker and just call it "self-defense", I will dig into your four links. Not until then. Have fun on your trip, and welcome back; have fun with your guns, too. The thrill is gone for me, Bud; I wouldn't want a child to see me load my gun in my van.

 

Well, though you are not particularly balanced in your relationship with (and promulgation of) high muzzle velocity, military style weapons, I don't suppose you are a direct danger to society. With others who read your words and match your weaponry, the jury is out. We'll never know. But given the types who are attracted to such power, I doubt your enthusiasm for firearms, and your 24-7-365 promotion of them, is some big positive. Mother Teresa wouldn't have those damn things.

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Win a few, lose a few. My side loses a lot. And then, there's this...

 

 

 

 

Doonesbury-Starbucks-Anti-Gun_zpsddd087e

 

 

 

In the past few months, two separate ladies set their purses down in different Starbucks coffee shops, and the guns went off. (Glocks?)

 

Another clown, a church minister, showed up last month at a Huntsville Starbucks with an AW slung over his shoulder to express his gratitude for their open carry policy. He brought his son to film the encounter to bolster the 1st Amendment, then posted the video on You Tube.

 

In Newton, CT, some gun club showed up with their weapons wearing cammo to hold their club meeting. The manager promptly shut the place down.

 

Two other customers brought in their guns openly, as allowed, then robbed Starbucks.

 

Starbucks Seeks to Keep Guns Out of Its Coffee Shops

By STEPHANIE STROM

Published: September 18, 2013

Tired of being thrust onto the front lines of the nation’s debate over guns, Starbucks is asking customers to leave firearms behind when they are in its stores and its outdoor seating areas.

Related

The policy change came after a shooting rampage at the Washington Navy Yard on Monday that left 13 people, including the gunman, dead. But Starbucks said its decision was not in response to that or to the shooting spree that killed 26 children and adults at the Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Conn., just days before Christmas last year.

“I’ve spent a significant amount of personal time on this issue in the last several months and I’ve seen the emotionally charged nature of this issue and how polarizing it is on both sides,” Howard Schultz, the chief executive of Starbucks, said in a telephone interview. “Nevertheless, customers in many stores have been jarred and fairly uncomfortable to see guns in our stores, not understanding the issue and feeling that guns should not be part of the Starbucks experience, especially when small kids are around.”

Under the change, baristas and other store employees will not ask customers who come in with guns in holsters, say, to leave or confront them in any way, Mr. Schultz said. No signs explaining the policy will be posted in Starbucks stores, either.

“We are going to serve them as we would serve anyone else,” he said. “There are going to be people on both sides

who will be disappointed or angry, but we’re making a decision we think is in the best interests of our customers, employees and the company.” He said store officials would evaluate compliance over time and consider posting signs if necessary.

A majority of company-owned Starbucks stores are in states that allow people to openly carry guns, although restrictions and limitations vary from state to state. The company has had a handful of armed robberies in its stores over the years, as well as two recent incidents where guns carried in women’s purses have discharged accidentally, but little other gun violence in its stores.

Under its previous policy, however, Starbucks has been unwillingly co-opted by proponents of “open carry” policies and vilified by those seeking stricter laws on gun ownership. Garry Trudeau devoted six consecutive days of his Doonesbury comic strip in 2010 to mocking the company’s stance, which opened with a barista greeting a customer in a plaid flannel shirt and saying, “Welcome to Starbucks, sir. Would you be openly carrying a weapon today?”

“Pro-gun activists have used our stores as a political stage for media events misleadingly called ‘Starbucks Appreciation Days’ that disingenuously portray Starbucks as a champion of open carry,” Mr. Schultz wrote in an open letter to be published in ads in major newspapers.

Last month, Starbucks closed a store in Newtown early after gun rights supporters wearing camouflage and Connecticut Citizens Defense League T-shirts held one of their events there.

Similarly, opponents of military-style assault weapons in stores, like the group Moms Demand Action for Gun Sense in America, which advocated “Skip Starbucks Sundays,” have staged protests outside Starbucks stores and urged consumers to boycott the company.

In 2010, the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence teamed with Credo Action, an activist group that uses mobile technology and social media to push change, and attracted more than 40,000 signatures on a petition aimed at changing the company’s policy on guns in its stores that was delivered to Starbucks headquarters in Seattle.

“It sounds like Howard Schultz is making a very good business decision,” said Brian Malte, director of legislation and mobilization at the Brady Campaign. “Lots of families with children, college students and young people are Starbucks customers, and they want to feel safe.”

The company has long followed local laws regarding the ability to carry guns in plain sight. Customers in the 44 states that allow legal gun owners to carry weapons openly have been permitted in its stores there, while those in the six other states — New York, California, South Carolina, Illinois, Florida and Texas — have not, according to the Law Center to Prevent Gun Violence.

“I want to make it very clear that Starbucks is not a policy maker and as a company we are not pro- or anti-gun,” Mr. Schultz said. “However, there have been a number of episodes over the course of the last few months that have put us in a position to take a big step back and assess the issue of open carry.”

Most other restaurant chains and retailers follow policies similar to the one Starbucks is abandoning, although Peet’s Coffee and Tea and California Pizza Kitchen ban guns from their stores altogether. Disney also forbids guns in its theme parks, and Costco does not allow its members to carry them openly in its stores.

“While Peet’s Coffee and Tea respects and values all individuals’ rights under the law, like many other private retail establishments, our policy is not to allow customers carrying firearms in our stores or on our outdoor seating premises unless they are uniformed or identified law enforcement officers,” the company said in a statement forwarded by a spokeswoman.

A spokeswoman for the National Restaurant Association said the organization did not have a list of its members’ policies on guns but noted that some states that have open carry laws on the books still prohibit public display of firearms in restaurants.

Pasted from <http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/19/business/starbucks-seeks-to-keep-guns-out-of-its-cofee-shops.html?_r=0>

 

 

The behavior is amusing from a certain angle.

You gun guys, in general, don't seem to know when to stop, so must be stopped by others.

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Win a few, lose a few. My side loses a lot. And then, there's this...

 

 

 

 

Doonesbury-Starbucks-Anti-Gun_zpsddd087e

 

 

 

In the past few months, two separate ladies set their purses down in different Starbucks coffee shops, and the guns went off. (Glocks?)

 

Another clown, a church minister, showed up last month at a Huntsville Starbucks with an AW slung over his shoulder to express his gratitude for their open carry policy. He brought his son to film the encounter to bolster the 1st Amendment, then posted the video on You Tube.

 

In Newton, CT, some gun club showed up with their weapons wearing cammo to hold their club meeting. The manager promptly shut the place down.

 

Two other customers brought in their guns openly, as allowed, then robbed Starbucks.

 

Starbucks Seeks to Keep Guns Out of Its Coffee Shops

By STEPHANIE STROM

Published: September 18, 2013

Tired of being thrust onto the front lines of the nation’s debate over guns, Starbucks is asking customers to leave firearms behind when they are in its stores and its outdoor seating areas.

Related

The policy change came after a shooting rampage at the Washington Navy Yard on Monday that left 13 people, including the gunman, dead. But Starbucks said its decision was not in response to that or to the shooting spree that killed 26 children and adults at the Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Conn., just days before Christmas last year.

“I’ve spent a significant amount of personal time on this issue in the last several months and I’ve seen the emotionally charged nature of this issue and how polarizing it is on both sides,” Howard Schultz, the chief executive of Starbucks, said in a telephone interview. “Nevertheless, customers in many stores have been jarred and fairly uncomfortable to see guns in our stores, not understanding the issue and feeling that guns should not be part of the Starbucks experience, especially when small kids are around.”

Under the change, baristas and other store employees will not ask customers who come in with guns in holsters, say, to leave or confront them in any way, Mr. Schultz said. No signs explaining the policy will be posted in Starbucks stores, either.

“We are going to serve them as we would serve anyone else,” he said. “There are going to be people on both sides

who will be disappointed or angry, but we’re making a decision we think is in the best interests of our customers, employees and the company.” He said store officials would evaluate compliance over time and consider posting signs if necessary.

A majority of company-owned Starbucks stores are in states that allow people to openly carry guns, although restrictions and limitations vary from state to state. The company has had a handful of armed robberies in its stores over the years, as well as two recent incidents where guns carried in women’s purses have discharged accidentally, but little other gun violence in its stores.

Under its previous policy, however, Starbucks has been unwillingly co-opted by proponents of “open carry” policies and vilified by those seeking stricter laws on gun ownership. Garry Trudeau devoted six consecutive days of his Doonesbury comic strip in 2010 to mocking the company’s stance, which opened with a barista greeting a customer in a plaid flannel shirt and saying, “Welcome to Starbucks, sir. Would you be openly carrying a weapon today?”

“Pro-gun activists have used our stores as a political stage for media events misleadingly called ‘Starbucks Appreciation Days’ that disingenuously portray Starbucks as a champion of open carry,” Mr. Schultz wrote in an open letter to be published in ads in major newspapers.

Last month, Starbucks closed a store in Newtown early after gun rights supporters wearing camouflage and Connecticut Citizens Defense League T-shirts held one of their events there.

Similarly, opponents of military-style assault weapons in stores, like the group Moms Demand Action for Gun Sense in America, which advocated “Skip Starbucks Sundays,” have staged protests outside Starbucks stores and urged consumers to boycott the company.

In 2010, the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence teamed with Credo Action, an activist group that uses mobile technology and social media to push change, and attracted more than 40,000 signatures on a petition aimed at changing the company’s policy on guns in its stores that was delivered to Starbucks headquarters in Seattle.

“It sounds like Howard Schultz is making a very good business decision,” said Brian Malte, director of legislation and mobilization at the Brady Campaign. “Lots of families with children, college students and young people are Starbucks customers, and they want to feel safe.”

The company has long followed local laws regarding the ability to carry guns in plain sight. Customers in the 44 states that allow legal gun owners to carry weapons openly have been permitted in its stores there, while those in the six other states — New York, California, South Carolina, Illinois, Florida and Texas — have not, according to the Law Center to Prevent Gun Violence.

“I want to make it very clear that Starbucks is not a policy maker and as a company we are not pro- or anti-gun,” Mr. Schultz said. “However, there have been a number of episodes over the course of the last few months that have put us in a position to take a big step back and assess the issue of open carry.”

Most other restaurant chains and retailers follow policies similar to the one Starbucks is abandoning, although Peet’s Coffee and Tea and California Pizza Kitchen ban guns from their stores altogether. Disney also forbids guns in its theme parks, and Costco does not allow its members to carry them openly in its stores.

“While Peet’s Coffee and Tea respects and values all individuals’ rights under the law, like many other private retail establishments, our policy is not to allow customers carrying firearms in our stores or on our outdoor seating premises unless they are uniformed or identified law enforcement officers,” the company said in a statement forwarded by a spokeswoman.

A spokeswoman for the National Restaurant Association said the organization did not have a list of its members’ policies on guns but noted that some states that have open carry laws on the books still prohibit public display of firearms in restaurants.

Pasted from <http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/19/business/starbucks-seeks-to-keep-guns-out-of-its-cofee-shops.html?_r=0>

 

 

The behavior is amusing from a certain angle.

You gun guys, in general, don't seem to know when to stop, so must be stopped by others.

 

 

I'd like to see a source on the guns firing within purses stories, but in general I agree with you on this one. Not mentioned in the article: the "Starbucks Appreciation" started when gun control activists tried to pressure Starbucks into using their stores to promote their political agenda. Starbucks did not cave to the pressure, which was appreciated. I think it was wrong for the gun control groups to use Starbucks as a pawn in this.

 

Then the gun nutz went further, with open carry events that, as the article said, tried to use Starbucks as a pawn for the gun nut agenda. That was wrong too. Leave 'em alone! They're just trying to sell overpriced coffee and sugary items.

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Notice also that StarFux spoke's hole stated that they were neither pro, nor anti gun.

 

Sorry JokeOff, you fail. Yet again.....

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Notice also that StarFux spoke's hole stated that they were neither pro, nor anti gun.

 

Sorry JokeOff, you fail. Yet again.....

 

 

If you paid close attention, what happened was: the anti-gun nutters tried to get Starbucks to institute a "no guns" policy. Starbucks said their policy was to sell coffee and obey state and local laws. They added that disarming customers might make employees and customers less safe. Needless to say, that line was not well-received in some quarters, but was cheered in others.

 

Where allowed by state and local laws, gun nuts proceeded to flock to Starbucks wearing their guns. They were trying to make Starbucks into a hero of the movement. Starbucks just wants to sell coffee to people, no matter how they feel about guns. They don't want to be hero, villain, or even relevant in the gun debate. We should ALL respect their wishes. Goes for other companies too.

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Jeff. I offered you a deal, and I shall stand by it. When you explain the rationale for coaching others to blow away a shirtless tire-chucker and just call it "self-defense", I will dig into your four links. Not until then. Have fun on your trip, and welcome back; have fun with your guns, too. The thrill is gone for me, Bud; I wouldn't want a child to see me load my gun in my van.

 

Well, though you are not particularly balanced in your relationship with (and promulgation of) high muzzle velocity, military style weapons, I don't suppose you are a direct danger to society. With others who read your words and match your weaponry, the jury is out. We'll never know. But given the types who are attracted to such power, I doubt your enthusiasm for firearms, and your 24-7-365 promotion of them, is some big positive. Mother Teresa wouldn't have those damn things.

Joco,

 

Feel free to show me where I "coached" or "cheered" any such incident and we'll talk. I did no such thing. I do stand by my long standing principle that a firearm is a legitimate self-defense tool against even unarmed people. I wouldn't expect a smaller person to take a potentially lethal beating just because the assailant wasn't armed. A bigger person armed only fists and skittles can maim and kill, as GITC correctly said. So stating that fact is not "coaching", as much as you'd like it to be so.

 

Again, ALL of your words here are nothing but projection of your own insecurities and fears. First of all, this is the ONLY place I write these words about guns, guns rights, etc. so I'm not sure who you're afraid I'm influencing. Aside from you and gaytor, I know of no else here that might be remotely unstable enough to have this adult conversation. So what others who "read my words" are you worried about? I personally think it is YOU who are the danger. You have a love/hate fascination with guns. You own guns, yet you find people who own guns dangerous and unbalanced. Mmmmm, perhaps this is a cry out for help for someone to take your gun away? Having suicidal or homicidal thoughts?

 

Again, please address my gun culture question. Stop ignoring it because it doesn't suit your narrative.

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You coached what you coached, it is no fabrication of mine.

 

 

My sincere concern is volitional shootings by dunderheads, now called SYG, and the general proliferation of guns in our fine country. The problem involves both lowlifes and others like you, who should know better. You don't seem to have the sense to apply effective background checks, do ya?

 

 

 

Dude, I'm living with a huge bear on my property, which by the way was targeted by a methamphetamine crew for five years. They took the baby grand, the wiring, even the garbage disposal and shower heads, etc. etc. etc. They also trashed the place. Six arrests didn't stem the crew. My dog and workmate Charlie Freckles is DTS, he perished in pursuit of the bear a month ago, and it hurt pretty badly. But my sole gun, a little .22, is seventy paces away in a separate building. Yeah, tell me again what a sissy I am.

 

 

 

Jeff, I would not leave you alone in a room with George Zimmerman, out of concern for the way society is developing. I am bemused that you can't admit the legacy of the modern NRA. You think I don't have you pegged, eh? I'll repeat myself for you directly: these military style weapons simply have no place on our streets. You are not well if you defend and promote them, IMO. My observation: you are just another small man with a gun who could take a page from d'ranger's book.

 

Another gun nut, another practiced fibber, methinks.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Post210JBSF.jpg

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You got any 'stories' of people running around the streets of America with 'military style' style weapons? If so I'd love to hear them.....

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You coached what you coached, it is no fabrication of mine.

 

My sincere concern is volitional shootings by dunderheads, now called SYG, and the general proliferation of guns in our fine country. The problem involves both lowlifes and others like you, who should know better. You don't seem to have the sense to apply effective background checks, do ya?

 

 

 

Dude, I'm living with a huge bear on my property, which by the way was targeted by a methamphetamine crew for five years. They took the baby grand, the wiring, even the garbage disposal and shower heads, etc. etc. etc. They also trashed the place. Six arrests didn't stem the crew. My dog and workmate Charlie Freckles is DTS, he perished in pursuit of the bear a month ago, and it hurt pretty badly. But my sole gun, a little .22, is seventy paces away in a separate building. Yeah, tell me again what a sissy I am.

 

 

 

Jeff, I would not leave you alone in a room with George Zimmerman, out of concern for the way society is developing. I am bemused that you can't admit the legacy of the modern NRA. You think I don't have you pegged, eh? I'll repeat myself for you directly: these military style weapons simply have no place on our streets. You are not well if you defend and promote them, IMO. My observation: you are just another small man with a gun who could take a page from d'ranger's book.

 

Another gun nut, another practiced fibber, methinks.

Uhhh, yes it is if you can't be bothered to quote the relevant bit you're referring to. Another fibber??? Yes, you are.

 

Speaking of unadulterated liar...... You've been called on this many times. Show me where I oppose effective background checks. You keep saying this. You keep getting called on it by others besides me and you continue to ignore that and then come back and repeat it as if its never been said. Do you fucking think we are that stupid?

 

Address the gun culture thing, jocal. You can't hide from that that. Stop talking AT us and start talking TO us. A "forum" means its a two way discussion. I answered you and fulfilled my end of your "deal". Your turn.

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And I want to see Jokey comment on this story, and on what's been happening in Mexico lately. Are these 'gun nutters' too, Jokey? Or do you think they actually have a legitimate cause, where they should be free to protect themselves and theirs?.....

 

 

 

 

Mexico Self-Defense Squads Battle Violence Where Authorities Fail

By MARK STEVENSON 01/21/13 01:13 PM ET EST ap_wire.png

gplus-32.png
r-MEXICO-SELF-DEFENSE-SQUADS-large570.jp

AYUTLA, Mexico — The young man at the roadside checkpoint wept softly behind the red bandanna that masked his face. At his side was a relic revolver, and his feet were shod in the muddy, broken boots of a farmer.

Haltingly, he told how his cousin's body was found in a mass grave with about 40 other victims of a drug gang. Apparently, the cousin had caught a ride with an off-duty soldier and when gunmen stopped the vehicle, they killed everyone on the car.

"There isn't one of us who hasn't felt the pain ... of seeing them take a family member and not being able to ever get them back," said the young civilian self-defense patrol member, who identified himself as "just another representative of the people of the mountain."

Now he has joined hundreds of other men in the southern Mexico state of Guerrero who have taken up arms to defend their villages against drug gangs, a vigilante movement born of frustration at extortion, killings and kidnappings that local police are unable, or unwilling, to stop.

Vigilantes patrol a dozen or more towns in rural Mexico, the unauthorized but often tolerated edge of a growing movement toward armed citizen self-defense squads across the country.

"The situation Mexico is experiencing, the crime, is what has given the communities the legitimacy to say, `We will assume the tasks that the government has not been able to fulfill,'" said rights activist Roman Hernandez, whose group Tlachinollan has worked with the community forces.

The young man and his masked cohorts stop cars at a checkpoint along the two-lane highway that runs past mango and palm trees to Ayutla, a dusty, sun-struck town of concrete homes with red-tile roofs. Pigs, chickens and skinny dogs root in the dirt while the mountains of the Pacific Coast range loom above.

The men wear fading t-shirts, leather sandals and most are armed with old hunting rifles or ancient 20-gauge shotguns hanging from their shoulders on twine slings as they stop cars and check the IDs of passing drivers.

The reach of drug gangs based in Acapulco, about 45 miles (75 kilometers) away, had intensified to the point that they were demanding protection payments from almost anybody with any property: truck and bus drivers, cattle ranchers, store owners. In a region where farmworkers make less than $6 per day, the situation grew intolerable for everyone.

"When they extorted money from the rancher, he raised the price of beef, and the store owner raised the price of tortillas," said a short, stocky defense-patrol commander who wore a brown ski mask and a black leather jacket. Because the patrols are not formally recognized by the courts, the law or the government – and they fear drug cartel reprisals – most members wear masks and refuse to give their full names.

An example of the danger came in late July when the city's official police chief was found shot to death on the edge of town.

It was another attack by criminals that sparked the movement in Ayutla: In early January, gang members kidnapped a commander of an existing community police force in a nearby town.

"Maybe they wanted to intimidate us, but it backfired. They just awakened the people," said one of the older vigilantes, a straw-hatted man without a gun.

Since then, the upstart self-defense movement has spread to other towns and villages such as Las Mesas and El Pericon. On a recent day, Associated Press journalists saw 200 to 300 masked, armed men patrolling, manning checkpoints and moving around in squad-size contingents. Some had only machetes, but most had old single-shot, bolt-action rifles.

Waving guns, they stop each vehicle, and ask for driver's licenses or voter IDs, which they check against a handwritten list of "los malos," or "the bad guys." They sometimes search vehicles and frisk the drivers.

The commander of the Las Mesas vigilantes explains their motives. "We are not against those who are distributing drugs. That's a way for them to earn a living. Let anyone who wants to poison themselves with drugs do it. What we are against is them messing with the local people."

The movement so far seems to be well-accepted by local residents fed up with crime that plagued this stretch of mountain highway.

"In less than a month, they have done something that the army and state and federal police haven't been able to do in years," said local resident Lorena Morales Castro, who waited in a line of cars at a checkpoint Friday. "They are our anonymous heroes."

One vigilante passed sheepishly down the line of waiting cars with a jar asking for donations. Some people tossed in coins or small bills.

Housewife Audifa Miranda Arismendi showed up at the vigilante checkpoint in El Pericon with a vat of chilate, a local beverage made of rice, cocoa beans and cinnamon, for the masked men. "It's good to help out here, because this is for the good of all," she said.

Some officials, too, have cautiously approved of the do-it-yourself police. Guerrero Gov. Angel Aguirre offered to supply them with uniforms so they wouldn't be confused with masked gang members, but he also said he is trying to eliminate the need for vigilantes by beefing up official forces.

Community and indigenous rights activists often see citizen patrols as a good alternative or addition to standard rural police forces that are considered corrupt or repressive.

But clearly, the vigilante squads here present problems even in their first few weeks. The vigilantes in Guerrero are holding, by their own account, 44 people accused of crimes ranging from homicide to theft. Nobody outside the village of El Zapote, where they are being held in a makeshift jail, knows what conditions they are being held in, or what charges, if any, there are against them.

When the head of the Guerrero state Human Rights Commission, Juan Alarcon Hernandez, showed up to check on the prisoners' condition, he was met by about 100 angry villagers who said they didn't want anyone to visit the prisoners. "No, no, no. We want justice!" the crowd shouted.

"We wanted to see what condition these people are in, as a human rights issue and as a humanitarian issue," said Alarcon Hernandez. Eventually, he and his aides turned around and left, unsure how to proceed, because the self-defense squads exist in legal limbo.

Still, the idea of citizen patrols is spreading in Mexico.

In 2011, townsfolk in the pine-covered-hill town of Cheran in neighboring Michoacan state began armed patrols in the face of what they said were the killings of farmers by illegal loggers in league with drug traffickers. In the northern state of Chihuahua, a community of farmers and ranchers known as Colonia Lebaron – most of whom hold dual U.S. citizenship – set up self-defense squads following the 2009 killings of two of its members.

And in the drug-plagued northern state of Sinaloa, the mayor of Concordia, Jose Elijio Medina, responded to a massacre, which forced everyone in a remote hamlet to flee, by calling for the Mexican army to revive the Rural Self Defense Corps, units of armed farmers it once helped train and supervise. While the army did not respond to requests to say how many of the units remain, local media have reported the army has been trying to wind down the few remaining units.

Since 1995, about 80 villages in Guerrero state have organized legal "community police" forces in which poorly armed villagers detain and prosecute people.

With their own jails, "courts" – actually village assemblies that can hand down verdicts – and punishments that can include forced labor for the town or re-education talks, the community police are recognized by state law, though rights activist Hernandez said there is still friction when community rules intersect with the formal legal system.

He pointed to one incident in 2012 where a judge and a detective in the Guerrero town of San Luis Acatlan arrested a community police leader for exceeding his authority. Villagers responded by arresting the judge, the detective and an assistant.

Members of the vigilante squads in Guerrero say what they want from the government is some kind of salary, not modern weapons. What counts, they say, are their ties to the community and resistance to corruption.

"When the people are united, it doesn't matter if it's a .22, a 16-gauge shotgun or 20-gauge. It's that when we are united, not even bullets from an AK-47 can defeat us," said the self-defense commander in Las Mesas. "They can't kill us all."

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Rick, those people have "alternatives" (says jocal). The have no need to SYG. they could reason with the cartels, or they could just move. Guns have never solved anything.

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Florida woman shot at Starbucks by friend who forgot gun was in her purse


By Scott Kaufman


Monday, August 12, 2013 10:10 EDT



Police say a loaded handgun in a Florida woman’s purse accidentally discharged when she dropped it in a St. Petersberg’s Starbucks on Saturday. The bullet from 51-year-old Pamela Beck’s gun struck her friend, 38-year-old Amie Peterson, above the knee. The wound was not serious and Peterson was released from the hospital late Saturday night.



Beck, who does not have a concealed weapons permit, told police that the gold-plated .25 caliber semi-automatic pistol had been given to her by her father a year ago, for protection, and that she had forgotten that she placed the gun in a spare purse. Before leaving for the Tyrone Square Mall in which the Starbucks was located, she switched purses to the spare one.



St. Petersburg Police spokesman Mike Puetz said that her purse “hit the ground hard” and the gun fired.


Starbucks, which has been criticized in the past for its refusal to ban armed customers, released this statement:


“At Starbucks, the safety and security of our partners who are our employees and customers is our top priority. We are aware of the accident that took place and are thankful that nobody was seriously injured.”



Police consider the shooting accidental, but have referred the case to the Pinellas County State Attorney’s Office because Beck lacked a concealed carry permit. Prosecutors are still deciding whether to press charges.


This is just the latest in a string of accidental shootings. In June alone, a 13-year-old Nevada girl was accidentally shot by a friend and a Texas boy shot his 13-year-old stepsister while making his AK-47 “safe.”



Pasted from <http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/08/12/florida-woman-shot-at-starbucks-by-friend-who-forgot-gun-was-in-her-purse/>




Gun fires from girl's purse in Wyoming Starbucks


Updated 12/28/2011 12:22 PM


CHEYENNE, Wyo. (AP) – Police in Wyoming say nobody was hurt when a small gun that was inside a girl's purse fired while she was in a Cheyenne Starbucks.



The bullet went through a chair and into a wall and narrowly missed several customers.


Police say the mishap occurred while officers were at the coffee shop around 7 a.m. Monday. They found a gunshot hole in the purse and a small, Derringer-type, double-barrel .38 Special inside.



Authorities say the girl is under age 18 and didn't release her name. She was cited for underage possession of a firearm.



The Wyoming Tribune Eagle (http://bit.ly/uwHpuP ) reported that the girl's father had given her the gun and encouraged her to carry it for her protection. According to police records, she hasn't had any formal firearms training.



Pasted from <http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/story/2011-12-28/starbucks-gun-fires/52252886/1>


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