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Guest One of Five

Oh Looky - NY Sheriffs Association responds to Cuomo's gun laws.

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Guest One of Five

Do you have any idea how simple it is to make your own ammunition? Do you have any idea how slow the "Instant" check system would be if overwhelmed by a check for every ammo purchase?

 

of course not. Its a Do Something action for a Know Nothing respondant.

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Guest One of Five

We could keep a national no buy list. very simple to check your name against that list.

 

It is also not simple to make ammunition. Its simple to reload, but not manufacture from raw materials. Requires specialized and expensive equipment.

 

Yea, the national no fly list - that's worked out well.

 

Somehow you think by making it difficult for law-abiding people to get guns and ammunition with which they would defend themselves you're going to make it more difficult for ciminials? This mitigates your inability to govern?

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Do you have any idea how simple it is to make your own ammunition? Do you have any idea how slow the "Instant" check system would be if overwhelmed by a check for every ammo purchase?

We could keep a national no buy list. very simple to check your name against that list.

 

It is also not simple to make ammunition. Its simple to reload, but not manufacture from raw materials. Requires specialized and expensive equipment.

 

It is not difficult to melt lead and pour it into a mold. Primers can be improvised from cap gun caps. It is really not that difficult. The technology we are talking about is over a hundred years old.

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Guest One of Five

and making guns? making machine guns?

 

have a metal shop? have a 3-D modeling printer?

 

You can frikken print a an evil high capacity magazine.

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Do you have any idea how simple it is to make your own ammunition? Do you have any idea how slow the "Instant" check system would be if overwhelmed by a check for every ammo purchase?

We could keep a national no buy list. very simple to check your name against that list.

 

It is also not simple to make ammunition. Its simple to reload, but not manufacture from raw materials. Requires specialized and expensive equipment.

 

It is not difficult to melt lead and pour it into a mold. Primers can be improvised from cap gun caps. It is really not that difficult. The technology we are talking about is over a hundred years old.

I'm talking the brass. You have a press that can stamp out tight tolerance,calibrated brass from blanks? You have any idea how reliable hand stamped brass would be in your AR15?

 

and making guns? making machine guns?

 

have a metal shop? have a 3-D modeling printer?

 

You can frikken print a an evil high capacity magazine.

Only hobbyists would go through the effort. Criminals not so much.

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Do you have any idea how simple it is to make your own ammunition? Do you have any idea how slow the "Instant" check system would be if overwhelmed by a check for every ammo purchase?

We could keep a national no buy list. very simple to check your name against that list.

 

It is also not simple to make ammunition. Its simple to reload, but not manufacture from raw materials. Requires specialized and expensive equipment.

 

It is not difficult to melt lead and pour it into a mold. Primers can be improvised from cap gun caps. It is really not that difficult. The technology we are talking about is over a hundred years old.

I'm talking the brass. You have a press that can stamp out tight tolerance,calibrated brass from blanks? You have any idea how reliable hand stamped brass would be in your AR15?

 

Brass is all over the place. Go to any public range and you can pick up thousands of empty cases in the course of a day. Semi autos spit them out when you pull the trigger, of course you know that already. So what then? Require people to lock up their brass, micro stamp it and hold them liable if someone picks up an empty case of theirs reloads it and shoots someone? This is the problem with constantly solving the wrong problem. It does not work.

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Do you have any idea how simple it is to make your own ammunition? Do you have any idea how slow the "Instant" check system would be if overwhelmed by a check for every ammo purchase?

We could keep a national no buy list. very simple to check your name against that list.

 

It is also not simple to make ammunition. Its simple to reload, but not manufacture from raw materials. Requires specialized and expensive equipment.

 

 

 

 

You do understand, doncha, that there's probably a trillion empty brass casings laying around this country? And that you can cast your own lead bullets, as easy as making a fishing sinker?....

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Brass is all over the place. Go to any public range and you can pick up thousands of empty cases in the course of a day. Semi autos spit them out when you pull the trigger, of course you know that already. So what then? Require people to lock up their brass, micro stamp it and hold them liable if someone picks up an empty case of theirs reloads it and shoots someone? This is the problem with constantly solving the wrong problem. It does not work.

It would make the brass very valuable. I doubt you would see any laying around. Shooters will police their own ranges, those who don't reload would gladly sell their spent cartridges. We may need to plug that loop hole too, but lets see how it shakes out.

 

 

Its a market based solution.

 

Do you have any idea how simple it is to make your own ammunition? Do you have any idea how slow the "Instant" check system would be if overwhelmed by a check for every ammo purchase?

We could keep a national no buy list. very simple to check your name against that list.

 

It is also not simple to make ammunition. Its simple to reload, but not manufacture from raw materials. Requires specialized and expensive equipment.

 

 

 

 

You do understand, doncha, that there's probably a trillion empty brass casings laying around this country? And that you can cast your own lead bullets, as easy as making a fishing sinker?....

Gun nutterz are notorious litter bugs?

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Brass is all over the place. Go to any public range and you can pick up thousands of empty cases in the course of a day. Semi autos spit them out when you pull the trigger, of course you know that already. So what then? Require people to lock up their brass, micro stamp it and hold them liable if someone picks up an empty case of theirs reloads it and shoots someone? This is the problem with constantly solving the wrong problem. It does not work.

It would make the brass very valuable. I doubt you would see any laying around. Shooters will police their own ranges, those who don't reload would gladly sell their spent cartridges. We may need to plug that loop hole too, but lets see how it shakes out.

 

 

Its a market based solution.

 

Do you have any idea how simple it is to make your own ammunition? Do you have any idea how slow the "Instant" check system would be if overwhelmed by a check for every ammo purchase?

We could keep a national no buy list. very simple to check your name against that list.

 

It is also not simple to make ammunition. Its simple to reload, but not manufacture from raw materials. Requires specialized and expensive equipment.

 

 

 

 

You do understand, doncha, that there's probably a trillion empty brass casings laying around this country? And that you can cast your own lead bullets, as easy as making a fishing sinker?....

Gun nutterz are notorious litter bugs?

 

Why would the brass be valuable? I thought the whole instant check thing was supposed to be simple, easy, and cheap. The brass should not be any more valuable than it is now in that case.

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Why would the brass be valuable? I thought the whole instant check thing was supposed to be simple, easy, and cheap. The brass should not be any more valuable than it is now in that case.

The check is simple. But those like you who fear the unknown will do whatever it takes to avoid the system.

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Why would the brass be valuable? I thought the whole instant check thing was supposed to be simple, easy, and cheap. The brass should not be any more valuable than it is now in that case.

The check is simple. But those like you who fear the unknown will do whatever it takes to avoid the system.

 

That makes absolutely no sense. I have had my name run through PICS 30 or 40 times in the past year. The only thing I am afraid of is waiting in line 4 hours to get a box of .22 ammo, and then having to pay three times as much as I should for it to cover the costs of PICS.

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Guest One of Five

That makes absolutely no sense. I have had my name run through PICS 30 or 40 times in the past year. The only thing I am afraid of is waiting in line 4 hours to get a box of .22 ammo, and then having to pay three times as much as I should for it to cover the costs of PICS.

 

they're ok with that. This is the same crowd that doesn't mind doubling the price of gasoline to prevent people from using their cars.

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That makes absolutely no sense. I have had my name run through PICS 30 or 40 times in the past year. The only thing I am afraid of is waiting in line 4 hours to get a box of .22 ammo, and then having to pay three times as much as I should for it to cover the costs of PICS.

 

they're ok with that. This is the same crowd that doesn't mind doubling the price of gasoline to prevent people from using their cars.

 

Sounds like Agenda21 people. "Let's make everyone use light-rail transit."

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Guest One of Five

and I'm OK with Light Rail as a CHOICE but not the only game in town.

 

My ability to defend my family isn't a choice - its a right.

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Guest One of Five

You have no idea how many people in the Northeast think that way.

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In other news, did you guys know that Obama shoots skeet whenever he's at Camp David?.....

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poor old Skeet - never catches a break.

 

Rumor has it that the only clays he uses have pictures of elephants on them....

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poor old Skeet - never catches a break.

 

Rumor has it that the only clays he uses have pictures of elephants on them....

 

wouldn't that be hysterical?

 

Yea, I'd have a beer with him.

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poor old Skeet - never catches a break.

 

Rumor has it that the only clays he uses have pictures of elephants on them....

 

wouldn't that be hysterical?

 

Yea, I'd have a beer with him.

 

I wouldn't. The asshole is too divisive and is ruining this country. But since there's not a poli on this planet that I'd wanna meet anyways, he's nothing special....

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OK, lets pick back up where we left off before mikey got sidetracked on definitions of big city cop and a sheriff. As if we care......

 

 

It was a key point in the thread and if you didn't care perhaps you shouldn't have argued.

 

 

 

DING! And for those that say that cops want people to have a disadvantage in firepower if they had to face them, I agree. But the point is the cops are not routinely going up against normal people with EBRs and big mags. Normal people don't make it a habit to go around shooting at cops. The people already likely breaking the law and would face off against cops are the ones who are going to ignore the AWB in the 1st place.

 

Of course, it's generally illogical if you look for direct justification.

 

But if you look for justification in the emotional need for some people to control others and just ignorance then it makes sense. Unfortunately, that's also the reason for most of these shootings and improperly secured weapons... emotional illness and ignorance.

 

 

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In other news, did you guys know that Obama shoots skeet whenever he's at Camp David?.....

 

I didn't even know he had a lawyer named Skeet.

 

Wait a minute...that was the last administration. Nevermind.

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poor old Skeet - never catches a break.

 

Rumor has it that the only clays he uses have pictures of elephants on them....

 

I wonder what kind of "magazine clip" he uses to load his double barrel home defense shotgun. I actually kinda think he might be full of shit when he says he shoots skeet.

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poor old Skeet - never catches a break.

 

Rumor has it that the only clays he uses have pictures of elephants on them....

 

I wonder what kind of "magazine clip" he uses to load his double barrel home defense shotgun. I actually kinda think he might be full of shit when he says he shoots skeet.

 

I think he meant 'shoot the sheet'....

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poor old Skeet - never catches a break.

 

Rumor has it that the only clays he uses have pictures of elephants on them....

 

I wonder what kind of "magazine clip" he uses to load his double barrel home defense shotgun. I actually kinda think he might be full of shit when he says he shoots skeet.

 

I think he meant 'shoot the sheet'....

 

You should email that to Jay Carney, he might be able to use that one.

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I'm not in favor of micro stamping brass for center fire cartidges, but I am in favor of microstamping primers. The technology has long been available. This would create a trail that could help narrow down suspects and would cover both ammo sold on the shelf and reloaders. Is it failsafe? No. Is it worthwhile? I think so. Shell casings are often left behind in crimes of passion and drive bys, which account for huge numbers of homicides. I feel this would help lead to more arrests for these crimes.

 

I also would not object to a no buy list for ammo. Around here they can deny you on the spot for a hunting license by swiping your state id or drivers license if you are prohibited due to hunting violations. You can't get the hunting license without showing proof of ID. Swiping the id in a card reader gives the clerk a go/no go to issue the hunting license. Why can't they do the same for ammo sales to felons, domestic violence, habitual drug, etc? Seems like common sense to me.

 

I'm sure this won't be real popular with the hardcore pro gun folk, but I suspect I'm far more representative of the average gun owner than they are.

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I'm not in favor of micro stamping brass for center fire cartidges, but I am in favor of microstamping primers. The technology has long been available. This would create a trail that could help narrow down suspects and would cover both ammo sold on the shelf and reloaders. Is it failsafe? No. Is it worthwhile? I think so. Shell casings are often left behind in crimes of passion and drive bys, which account for huge numbers of homicides. I feel this would help lead to more arrests for these crimes.

 

You would have to do a bit more than stamp the primers. Cop goes to shooting scene, finds stamped ammo, then what? Where is the list of people who bought ammo from dealers? And the list of private ammo sales? Seems both would be needed to be of any help to the cop at the crime scene.

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I'm not in favor of micro stamping brass for center fire cartidges, but I am in favor of microstamping primers. The technology has long been available. This would create a trail that could help narrow down suspects and would cover both ammo sold on the shelf and reloaders. Is it failsafe? No. Is it worthwhile? I think so. Shell casings are often left behind in crimes of passion and drive bys, which account for huge numbers of homicides. I feel this would help lead to more arrests for these crimes.

 

You would have to do a bit more than stamp the primers. Cop goes to shooting scene, finds stamped ammo, then what? Where is the list of people who bought ammo from dealers? And the list of private ammo sales? Seems both would be needed to be of any help to the cop at the crime scene.

nearly every component in my cell phone is stamped and traceable from the manufacturer, to the seller, to the purchaser. You can stick your head in the sand all you want, but the technology is there already and the digital paper trail would take nothing to set up. Is it perfect? No. Is it viable? yes.

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I'm not in favor of micro stamping brass for center fire cartidges, but I am in favor of microstamping primers. The technology has long been available. This would create a trail that could help narrow down suspects and would cover both ammo sold on the shelf and reloaders. Is it failsafe? No. Is it worthwhile? I think so. Shell casings are often left behind in crimes of passion and drive bys, which account for huge numbers of homicides. I feel this would help lead to more arrests for these crimes.

 

I also would not object to a no buy list for ammo. Around here they can deny you on the spot for a hunting license by swiping your state id or drivers license if you are prohibited due to hunting violations. You can't get the hunting license without showing proof of ID. Swiping the id in a card reader gives the clerk a go/no go to issue the hunting license. Why can't they do the same for ammo sales to felons, domestic violence, habitual drug, etc? Seems like common sense to me.

 

I'm sure this won't be real popular with the hardcore pro gun folk, but I suspect I'm far more representative of the average gun owner than they are.

 

When you say microstamping, I am assuming you mean an etched firing pin which stamps an identifying mark onto the primer. If so, that is easily bypassed by filing the end of the pin or simply replacing it. Seems like an awfully expensive way to accomplish nothing.

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...

Constitutional? That's the Supreme Courts job.

 

Mag capacity? Most cops would prefer their opponents had as little of that as possible....

 

 

Seems to me that banning standard capacity magazines treats all gun owners as opponents of cops. We are not.

'Not an opponent'...up until the moment one of your 'pards' sells a weapon to a criminal at a gun show, and it escapes into the wild....(where DO all those guns come from anyway?)

 

So you would have no problem with standard capacity mags over 10 as long as we gun owners are OK with running ALL sales through a licensed dealer and background check?

 

I have no problem with any of it, just as soon as your hobby SOP's mitigate the primary public safety problem.

 

The main problem is **NONE** of you will deign to admit self-control is an endemic problem inherent with your hobby- LEGALLY OBTAINED guns MAGICALLY become ILLEGALLY OWNED GUNS and all the owners hide behind a sham of their own 'responsible' behavior.

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I'm not in favor of micro stamping brass for center fire cartidges, but I am in favor of microstamping primers. The technology has long been available. This would create a trail that could help narrow down suspects and would cover both ammo sold on the shelf and reloaders. Is it failsafe? No. Is it worthwhile? I think so. Shell casings are often left behind in crimes of passion and drive bys, which account for huge numbers of homicides. I feel this would help lead to more arrests for these crimes.

 

You would have to do a bit more than stamp the primers. Cop goes to shooting scene, finds stamped ammo, then what? Where is the list of people who bought ammo from dealers? And the list of private ammo sales? Seems both would be needed to be of any help to the cop at the crime scene.

nearly every component in my cell phone is stamped and traceable from the manufacturer, to the seller, to the purchaser. You can stick your head in the sand all you want, but the technology is there already and the digital paper trail would take nothing to set up. Is it perfect? No. Is it viable? yes.

 

I found a box of .50 cal in the closet recently. I assume my brother bought it when he had a gun that fired it. No telling whether he bought it at a dealership, nor whether he paid cash. He may have bought it from a friend. Now it's in my possession, and I don't have a gun for it. But I know someone who does, and I plan to give it to him. Trace that.

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The main problem is **NONE** of you will deign to admit self-control is an endemic problem inherent with your hobby- LEGALLY OBTAINED guns MAGICALLY become ILLEGALLY OWNED GUNS and all the owners hide behind a sham of their own 'responsible' behavior.

Is there some proof that most legal gun owners have any involvement in the illegal gun trade? A tiny percentage of guns are used in crimes, so it seems very unlikely.

 

Speaking of self control and being reasonable, can you name a gun law that you think goes too far?

 

I can suggest a couple of candidates:

 

DC's rules that make registering a gun a process that takes months and costs hundreds of dollars, which strike me as an effort to continue their unconstitutional gun ban closed registry.

 

Chicago's rules saying you can't take your handgun to your attached garage, since the second amendment only applies in the home, in their view.

 

Too far? Does any gun control ever go too far?

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Guest One of Five

...

Constitutional? That's the Supreme Courts job.

 

Mag capacity? Most cops would prefer their opponents had as little of that as possible....

 

 

Seems to me that banning standard capacity magazines treats all gun owners as opponents of cops. We are not.

'Not an opponent'...up until the moment one of your 'pards' sells a weapon to a criminal at a gun show, and it escapes into the wild....(where DO all those guns come from anyway?)

 

So you would have no problem with standard capacity mags over 10 as long as we gun owners are OK with running ALL sales through a licensed dealer and background check?

 

I have no problem with any of it, just as soon as your hobby SOP's mitigate the primary public safety problem.

 

The main problem is **NONE** of you will deign to admit self-control is an endemic problem inherent with your hobby- LEGALLY OBTAINED guns MAGICALLY become ILLEGALLY OWNED GUNS and all the owners hide behind a sham of their own 'responsible' behavior.

 

So my civil rights are subject to your approval. What I "choose" to do is subject to your standards of appropriate or inappropriate behavior buffeted by the whims of the press,,,,

 

that's why we have a Bill of Rights.

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...

 

The main problem is **NONE** of you will deign to admit self-control is an endemic problem inherent with your hobby- LEGALLY OBTAINED guns MAGICALLY become ILLEGALLY OWNED GUNS and all the owners hide behind a sham of their own 'responsible' behavior.

Is there some proof that most legal gun owners have any involvement in the illegal gun trade? A tiny percentage of guns are used in crimes, so it seems very unlikely.

 

Speaking of self control and being reasonable, can you name a gun law that you think goes too far?

 

I can suggest a couple of candidates:

 

DC's rules that make registering a gun a process that takes months and costs hundreds of dollars, which strike me as an effort to continue their unconstitutional gun ban closed registry.

 

Chicago's rules saying you can't take your handgun to your attached garage, since the second amendment only applies in the home, in their view.

 

Too far? Does any gun control ever go too far?

 

Guns are icky, Oprah tells him so.

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I'm not in favor of micro stamping brass for center fire cartidges, but I am in favor of microstamping primers. The technology has long been available. This would create a trail that could help narrow down suspects and would cover both ammo sold on the shelf and reloaders. Is it failsafe? No. Is it worthwhile? I think so. Shell casings are often left behind in crimes of passion and drive bys, which account for huge numbers of homicides. I feel this would help lead to more arrests for these crimes.

 

I also would not object to a no buy list for ammo. Around here they can deny you on the spot for a hunting license by swiping your state id or drivers license if you are prohibited due to hunting violations. You can't get the hunting license without showing proof of ID. Swiping the id in a card reader gives the clerk a go/no go to issue the hunting license. Why can't they do the same for ammo sales to felons, domestic violence, habitual drug, etc? Seems like common sense to me.

 

I'm sure this won't be real popular with the hardcore pro gun folk, but I suspect I'm far more representative of the average gun owner than they are.

 

When you say microstamping, I am assuming you mean an etched firing pin which stamps an identifying mark onto the primer. If so, that is easily bypassed by filing the end of the pin or simply replacing it. Seems like an awfully expensive way to accomplish nothing.

No. I mean laser engraving each primer case. We individually mark and identify everything from aluminum soda cans to packages of beef. In my line of work we have a large number of parts laser engraved. The cost is nil. The cost to do this on a primer cap production line would not appreciably increase cost, which is i'm sure where you're going next.

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I'm not in favor of micro stamping brass for center fire cartidges, but I am in favor of microstamping primers. The technology has long been available. This would create a trail that could help narrow down suspects and would cover both ammo sold on the shelf and reloaders. Is it failsafe? No. Is it worthwhile? I think so. Shell casings are often left behind in crimes of passion and drive bys, which account for huge numbers of homicides. I feel this would help lead to more arrests for these crimes.

 

You would have to do a bit more than stamp the primers. Cop goes to shooting scene, finds stamped ammo, then what? Where is the list of people who bought ammo from dealers? And the list of private ammo sales? Seems both would be needed to be of any help to the cop at the crime scene.

nearly every component in my cell phone is stamped and traceable from the manufacturer, to the seller, to the purchaser. You can stick your head in the sand all you want, but the technology is there already and the digital paper trail would take nothing to set up. Is it perfect? No. Is it viable? yes.

 

I found a box of .50 cal in the closet recently. I assume my brother bought it when he had a gun that fired it. No telling whether he bought it at a dealership, nor whether he paid cash. He may have bought it from a friend. Now it's in my possession, and I don't have a gun for it. But I know someone who does, and I plan to give it to him. Trace that.

Nothing will ever satisfy you, apart from the repeal of any and all laws regarding firearms. You've made that very clear. Guys like you are the reason gun owners are looked at in such a poor light. You refuse to even acknowledge that the industry should be, and could be, taking steps to reduce or fight crime. The industry can embrace it now and be in the driver's seat, or have it rammed down their throats in the future, because this kind of stuff IS on its way.

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I'm not in favor of micro stamping brass for center fire cartidges, but I am in favor of microstamping primers. The technology has long been available. This would create a trail that could help narrow down suspects and would cover both ammo sold on the shelf and reloaders. Is it failsafe? No. Is it worthwhile? I think so. Shell casings are often left behind in crimes of passion and drive bys, which account for huge numbers of homicides. I feel this would help lead to more arrests for these crimes.

 

You would have to do a bit more than stamp the primers. Cop goes to shooting scene, finds stamped ammo, then what? Where is the list of people who bought ammo from dealers? And the list of private ammo sales? Seems both would be needed to be of any help to the cop at the crime scene.

nearly every component in my cell phone is stamped and traceable from the manufacturer, to the seller, to the purchaser. You can stick your head in the sand all you want, but the technology is there already and the digital paper trail would take nothing to set up. Is it perfect? No. Is it viable? yes.

 

And would it do anything to prevent mass shootings? Have there been any mass shootings in the past 20 years where the perp was not caught?

 

Like a national gun registry, this would simply be doing "something" -- regardless of how ineffectual it might be.

 

Why don't we pass a law that requires gun manufacturers to include a combination apparatus on all trigger locks. If you want to use the gun, all you have to do is call an 800 number to get the combo that works for your gun that day (the codes will change daily, of course). You have to read off the serial number on the gun, verify your wife's mother's maiden name, and give the last 4 of your SSN. You'll have to take an automated, 3 minute suicide survey before the friendly ATF operator at the other end of the line cross checks the gun registry and mental health database, and confirms that you are allowed to have the weapon at the address you are calling from. If everything is kosher, you'll get the combo over the phone to unlock your gun.

 

Imagine how many suicides that would prevent. If we could only save one.....

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The main problem is **NONE** of you will deign to admit self-control is an endemic problem inherent with your hobby- LEGALLY OBTAINED guns MAGICALLY become ILLEGALLY OWNED GUNS and all the owners hide behind a sham of their own 'responsible' behavior.

Is there some proof that most legal gun owners have any involvement in the illegal gun trade? A tiny percentage of guns are used in crimes, so it seems very unlikely.

 

Speaking of self control and being reasonable, can you name a gun law that you think goes too far?

 

I can suggest a couple of candidates:

 

DC's rules that make registering a gun a process that takes months and costs hundreds of dollars, which strike me as an effort to continue their unconstitutional gun ban closed registry.

 

Chicago's rules saying you can't take your handgun to your attached garage, since the second amendment only applies in the home, in their view.

 

Too far? Does any gun control ever go too far?

 

DC's rules that make registering a gun a process that takes months and costs hundreds of dollars?

 

So in DC only rich people can defend themselves?

 

That's so regressive.

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...

 

The main problem is **NONE** of you will deign to admit self-control is an endemic problem inherent with your hobby- LEGALLY OBTAINED guns MAGICALLY become ILLEGALLY OWNED GUNS and all the owners hide behind a sham of their own 'responsible' behavior.

Is there some proof that most legal gun owners have any involvement in the illegal gun trade? A tiny percentage of guns are used in crimes, so it seems very unlikely.

 

Speaking of self control and being reasonable, can you name a gun law that you think goes too far?

 

I can suggest a couple of candidates:

 

DC's rules that make registering a gun a process that takes months and costs hundreds of dollars, which strike me as an effort to continue their unconstitutional gun ban closed registry.

 

Chicago's rules saying you can't take your handgun to your attached garage, since the second amendment only applies in the home, in their view.

 

Too far? Does any gun control ever go too far?

 

DC's rules that make registering a gun a process that takes months and costs hundreds of dollars?

 

So in DC only rich people can defend themselves?

 

That's so regressive.

 

Yea and BIAM told people who have a 'problem' to move to a better (read more expensive $$ neighborhood). So much for the 'little' people.

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I'm not in favor of micro stamping brass for center fire cartidges, but I am in favor of microstamping primers. The technology has long been available. This would create a trail that could help narrow down suspects and would cover both ammo sold on the shelf and reloaders. Is it failsafe? No. Is it worthwhile? I think so. Shell casings are often left behind in crimes of passion and drive bys, which account for huge numbers of homicides. I feel this would help lead to more arrests for these crimes.

 

You would have to do a bit more than stamp the primers. Cop goes to shooting scene, finds stamped ammo, then what? Where is the list of people who bought ammo from dealers? And the list of private ammo sales? Seems both would be needed to be of any help to the cop at the crime scene.

nearly every component in my cell phone is stamped and traceable from the manufacturer, to the seller, to the purchaser. You can stick your head in the sand all you want, but the technology is there already and the digital paper trail would take nothing to set up. Is it perfect? No. Is it viable? yes.

 

And would it do anything to prevent mass shootings? Have there been any mass shootings in the past 20 years where the perp was not caught?

 

Like a national gun registry, this would simply be doing "something" -- regardless of how ineffectual it might be.

 

Why don't we pass a law that requires gun manufacturers to include a combination apparatus on all trigger locks. If you want to use the gun, all you have to do is call an 800 number to get the combo that works for your gun that day (the codes will change daily, of course). You have to read off the serial number on the gun, verify your wife's mother's maiden name, and give the last 4 of your SSN. You'll have to take an automated, 3 minute suicide survey before the friendly ATF operator at the other end of the line cross checks the gun registry and mental health database, and confirms that you are allowed to have the weapon at the address you are calling from. If everything is kosher, you'll get the combo over the phone to unlock your gun.

 

Imagine how many suicides that would prevent. If we could only save one.....

Pretty sure I made it clear that this would go a long way towards increasing the chances of solving crimes of passion or drive bys. No law or regulation will ever prevent all crimes. That seems a rather stupid reason to immediatley dismiss any and all ideas that could benefit society. This idea infringes no right and is technologically capable of being impletmented today. Rather predictable of you to try and deflect using a made up fantasy though.

 

Shouldn't you be jerking off to a pic of sarah palin? You obviously aren't interested in a real discussion.

 

You guys are your own worst enemy and you're too blinded by your hatred of anything other than a hardcore pro gun opinion to know it.

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I'm not in favor of micro stamping brass for center fire cartidges, but I am in favor of microstamping primers. The technology has long been available. This would create a trail that could help narrow down suspects and would cover both ammo sold on the shelf and reloaders. Is it failsafe? No. Is it worthwhile? I think so. Shell casings are often left behind in crimes of passion and drive bys, which account for huge numbers of homicides. I feel this would help lead to more arrests for these crimes.

 

I also would not object to a no buy list for ammo. Around here they can deny you on the spot for a hunting license by swiping your state id or drivers license if you are prohibited due to hunting violations. You can't get the hunting license without showing proof of ID. Swiping the id in a card reader gives the clerk a go/no go to issue the hunting license. Why can't they do the same for ammo sales to felons, domestic violence, habitual drug, etc? Seems like common sense to me.

 

I'm sure this won't be real popular with the hardcore pro gun folk, but I suspect I'm far more representative of the average gun owner than they are.

 

When you say microstamping, I am assuming you mean an etched firing pin which stamps an identifying mark onto the primer. If so, that is easily bypassed by filing the end of the pin or simply replacing it. Seems like an awfully expensive way to accomplish nothing.

No. I mean laser engraving each primer case. We individually mark and identify everything from aluminum soda cans to packages of beef. In my line of work we have a large number of parts laser engraved. The cost is nil. The cost to do this on a primer cap production line would not appreciably increase cost, which is i'm sure where you're going next.

 

I had not heard that proposed before. What would the cost be? What would it cost to administer the database to track billions of rounds of ammo?

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I'm not in favor of micro stamping brass for center fire cartidges, but I am in favor of microstamping primers. The technology has long been available. This would create a trail that could help narrow down suspects and would cover both ammo sold on the shelf and reloaders. Is it failsafe? No. Is it worthwhile? I think so. Shell casings are often left behind in crimes of passion and drive bys, which account for huge numbers of homicides. I feel this would help lead to more arrests for these crimes.

 

I also would not object to a no buy list for ammo. Around here they can deny you on the spot for a hunting license by swiping your state id or drivers license if you are prohibited due to hunting violations. You can't get the hunting license without showing proof of ID. Swiping the id in a card reader gives the clerk a go/no go to issue the hunting license. Why can't they do the same for ammo sales to felons, domestic violence, habitual drug, etc? Seems like common sense to me.

 

I'm sure this won't be real popular with the hardcore pro gun folk, but I suspect I'm far more representative of the average gun owner than they are.

 

When you say microstamping, I am assuming you mean an etched firing pin which stamps an identifying mark onto the primer. If so, that is easily bypassed by filing the end of the pin or simply replacing it. Seems like an awfully expensive way to accomplish nothing.

 

 

No. I mean laser engraving each primer case. We individually mark and identify everything from aluminum soda cans to packages of beef. In my line of work we have a large number of parts laser engraved. The cost is nil. The cost to do this on a primer cap production line would not appreciably increase cost, which is i'm sure where you're going next.

 

What in the fuk would that do to prevent school shootings? Can you even name ONE killer of kids who got away from the scene of the crime, and had to be tracked down days later, miles & miles away?

 

Again, you pearlies are trying to solve a problem that ain't f'ng existing. So please, just kitfo.....

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I'm not in favor of micro stamping brass for center fire cartidges, but I am in favor of microstamping primers. The technology has long been available. This would create a trail that could help narrow down suspects and would cover both ammo sold on the shelf and reloaders. Is it failsafe? No. Is it worthwhile? I think so. Shell casings are often left behind in crimes of passion and drive bys, which account for huge numbers of homicides. I feel this would help lead to more arrests for these crimes.

 

I also would not object to a no buy list for ammo. Around here they can deny you on the spot for a hunting license by swiping your state id or drivers license if you are prohibited due to hunting violations. You can't get the hunting license without showing proof of ID. Swiping the id in a card reader gives the clerk a go/no go to issue the hunting license. Why can't they do the same for ammo sales to felons, domestic violence, habitual drug, etc? Seems like common sense to me.

 

I'm sure this won't be real popular with the hardcore pro gun folk, but I suspect I'm far more representative of the average gun owner than they are.

 

When you say microstamping, I am assuming you mean an etched firing pin which stamps an identifying mark onto the primer. If so, that is easily bypassed by filing the end of the pin or simply replacing it. Seems like an awfully expensive way to accomplish nothing.

No. I mean laser engraving each primer case. We individually mark and identify everything from aluminum soda cans to packages of beef. In my line of work we have a large number of parts laser engraved. The cost is nil. The cost to do this on a primer cap production line would not appreciably increase cost, which is i'm sure where you're going next.

 

I had not heard that proposed before. What would the cost be? What would it cost to administer the database to track billions of rounds of ammo?

 

Stunning that they're willing to spare no expense just to save one life but when grilled about the deaths of four we get a "There's four dead people - what difference does it make."

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I found a box of .50 cal in the closet recently. I assume my brother bought it when he had a gun that fired it. No telling whether he bought it at a dealership, nor whether he paid cash. He may have bought it from a friend. Now it's in my possession, and I don't have a gun for it. But I know someone who does, and I plan to give it to him. Trace that.

Nothing will ever satisfy you, apart from the repeal of any and all laws regarding firearms. You've made that very clear. Guys like you are the reason gun owners are looked at in such a poor light. You refuse to even acknowledge that the industry should be, and could be, taking steps to reduce or fight crime. The industry can embrace it now and be in the driver's seat, or have it rammed down their throats in the future, because this kind of stuff IS on its way.

 

I have advocated repeal of very few laws, not "any and all" as you say. Specifically, I think Chicago and DC have laws that go too far, as mentioned above. Do you agree that they go too far? Do you think the second amendment applies outside the home? Do you think we should have to demonstrate a need for second amendment rights before exercising them?

 

I think that the firearms dealers who questioned the illegal sales the ATF was urging them to make in Fast and Furious were right to do so, to name one example I support of the industry trying to stem illegal sales. There are others, but your caricature is not worth wasting any more time.

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I'm not in favor of micro stamping brass for center fire cartidges, but I am in favor of microstamping primers. The technology has long been available. This would create a trail that could help narrow down suspects and would cover both ammo sold on the shelf and reloaders. Is it failsafe? No. Is it worthwhile? I think so. Shell casings are often left behind in crimes of passion and drive bys, which account for huge numbers of homicides. I feel this would help lead to more arrests for these crimes.

 

I also would not object to a no buy list for ammo. Around here they can deny you on the spot for a hunting license by swiping your state id or drivers license if you are prohibited due to hunting violations. You can't get the hunting license without showing proof of ID. Swiping the id in a card reader gives the clerk a go/no go to issue the hunting license. Why can't they do the same for ammo sales to felons, domestic violence, habitual drug, etc? Seems like common sense to me.

 

I'm sure this won't be real popular with the hardcore pro gun folk, but I suspect I'm far more representative of the average gun owner than they are.

 

When you say microstamping, I am assuming you mean an etched firing pin which stamps an identifying mark onto the primer. If so, that is easily bypassed by filing the end of the pin or simply replacing it. Seems like an awfully expensive way to accomplish nothing.

No. I mean laser engraving each primer case. We individually mark and identify everything from aluminum soda cans to packages of beef. In my line of work we have a large number of parts laser engraved. The cost is nil. The cost to do this on a primer cap production line would not appreciably increase cost, which is i'm sure where you're going next.

 

I had not heard that proposed before. What would the cost be? What would it cost to administer the database to track billions of rounds of ammo?

Dunno. Whats it cost to mark and track a pack of beef? The cost and logistics argument ain't got legs. Those hurdles were long overcome by a large number of other industries.

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I found a box of .50 cal in the closet recently. I assume my brother bought it when he had a gun that fired it. No telling whether he bought it at a dealership, nor whether he paid cash. He may have bought it from a friend. Now it's in my possession, and I don't have a gun for it. But I know someone who does, and I plan to give it to him. Trace that.

Nothing will ever satisfy you, apart from the repeal of any and all laws regarding firearms. You've made that very clear. Guys like you are the reason gun owners are looked at in such a poor light. You refuse to even acknowledge that the industry should be, and could be, taking steps to reduce or fight crime. The industry can embrace it now and be in the driver's seat, or have it rammed down their throats in the future, because this kind of stuff IS on its way.

 

I have advocated repeal of very few laws, not "any and all" as you say. Specifically, I think Chicago and DC have laws that go too far, as mentioned above. Do you agree that they go too far? Do you think the second amendment applies outside the home? Do you think we should have to demonstrate a need for second amendment rights before exercising them?

 

I think that the firearms dealers who questioned the illegal sales the ATF was urging them to make in Fast and Furious were right to do so, to name one example I support of the industry trying to stem illegal sales. There are others, but your caricature is not worth wasting any more time.

 

you mean the program where the Obama Administration gave Assault Weapons to members of the Mexican Drug Cartel?

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I'm not in favor of micro stamping brass for center fire cartidges, but I am in favor of microstamping primers. The technology has long been available. This would create a trail that could help narrow down suspects and would cover both ammo sold on the shelf and reloaders. Is it failsafe? No. Is it worthwhile? I think so. Shell casings are often left behind in crimes of passion and drive bys, which account for huge numbers of homicides. I feel this would help lead to more arrests for these crimes.

 

I also would not object to a no buy list for ammo. Around here they can deny you on the spot for a hunting license by swiping your state id or drivers license if you are prohibited due to hunting violations. You can't get the hunting license without showing proof of ID. Swiping the id in a card reader gives the clerk a go/no go to issue the hunting license. Why can't they do the same for ammo sales to felons, domestic violence, habitual drug, etc? Seems like common sense to me.

 

I'm sure this won't be real popular with the hardcore pro gun folk, but I suspect I'm far more representative of the average gun owner than they are.

 

When you say microstamping, I am assuming you mean an etched firing pin which stamps an identifying mark onto the primer. If so, that is easily bypassed by filing the end of the pin or simply replacing it. Seems like an awfully expensive way to accomplish nothing.

 

 

No. I mean laser engraving each primer case. We individually mark and identify everything from aluminum soda cans to packages of beef. In my line of work we have a large number of parts laser engraved. The cost is nil. The cost to do this on a primer cap production line would not appreciably increase cost, which is i'm sure where you're going next.

 

What in the fuk would that do to prevent school shootings? Can you even name ONE killer of kids who got away from the scene of the crime, and had to be tracked down days later, miles & miles away?

 

Again, you pearlies are trying to solve a problem that ain't f'ng existing. So please, just kitfo.....

are you retarded? did you even read what i wrote, or did you just start foaming at the mouth the instant you saw something that might require you to concede that some laws might be welcome addition? Why in the hell would we focus efforts on solely trying to end something that rarely ever occurs? This wouldn't do a damn thing to end mass shootings. It would give much needed assistance in solving the thousands of other murders every year though. Instead of gun bans and mag caps, this is the kind of legislation that should be looked at.

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I'm not in favor of micro stamping brass for center fire cartidges, but I am in favor of microstamping primers. The technology has long been available. This would create a trail that could help narrow down suspects and would cover both ammo sold on the shelf and reloaders. Is it failsafe? No. Is it worthwhile? I think so. Shell casings are often left behind in crimes of passion and drive bys, which account for huge numbers of homicides. I feel this would help lead to more arrests for these crimes.

 

I also would not object to a no buy list for ammo. Around here they can deny you on the spot for a hunting license by swiping your state id or drivers license if you are prohibited due to hunting violations. You can't get the hunting license without showing proof of ID. Swiping the id in a card reader gives the clerk a go/no go to issue the hunting license. Why can't they do the same for ammo sales to felons, domestic violence, habitual drug, etc? Seems like common sense to me.

 

I'm sure this won't be real popular with the hardcore pro gun folk, but I suspect I'm far more representative of the average gun owner than they are.

 

When you say microstamping, I am assuming you mean an etched firing pin which stamps an identifying mark onto the primer. If so, that is easily bypassed by filing the end of the pin or simply replacing it. Seems like an awfully expensive way to accomplish nothing.

No. I mean laser engraving each primer case. We individually mark and identify everything from aluminum soda cans to packages of beef. In my line of work we have a large number of parts laser engraved. The cost is nil. The cost to do this on a primer cap production line would not appreciably increase cost, which is i'm sure where you're going next.

 

I had not heard that proposed before. What would the cost be? What would it cost to administer the database to track billions of rounds of ammo?

Dunno. Whats it cost to mark and track a pack of beef? The cost and logistics argument ain't got legs. Those hurdles were long overcome by a large number of other industries.

 

Nobody is tracking the beef into people's homes, only through a distribution channel. I suspect that this would be quite a bit more costly than you imagine, which is likely why I have not seen it proposed much. This would imply a ban on private sales of ammunition as well. And finally, as I pointed out elsewhere, it is quite possible to reload a primer. So now you have spent ammo from a range that belongs to person A, picked up by person B and reloaded, and then used to shoot person C. The police track the primers back to person A who is now suspect number one, how does that help anything?

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Nobody is tracking the beef into people's homes, only through a distribution channel. I suspect that this would be quite a bit more costly than you imagine, which is likely why I have not seen it proposed much. This would imply a ban on private sales of ammunition as well. And finally, as I pointed out elsewhere, it is quite possible to reload a primer. So now you have spent ammo from a range that belongs to person A, picked up by person B and reloaded, and then used to shoot person C. The police track the primers back to person A who is now suspect number one, how does that help anything?

 

oh please let the little boy have his temper tantrum because those affected by his stupidity don't like his ideas.

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Nobody is tracking the beef into people's homes, only through a distribution channel. I suspect that this would be quite a bit more costly than you imagine, which is likely why I have not seen it proposed much. This would imply a ban on private sales of ammunition as well. And finally, as I pointed out elsewhere, it is quite possible to reload a primer. So now you have spent ammo from a range that belongs to person A, picked up by person B and reloaded, and then used to shoot person C. The police track the primers back to person A who is now suspect number one, how does that help anything?

Yes. so lets do nothing. This is why the micro stamping idea never gets anywhere. The nra and every other gun group starts screaming bloody murder that it costs too much and then the fanciful hypotheticals start streaming out.

 

You guys are so predictable. This is why gun owners will lose their rights. The fringe on both sides has portrayed them all as unbending and paranoid, and the middle just doesn't give a shit anymore.

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I found a box of .50 cal in the closet recently. I assume my brother bought it when he had a gun that fired it. No telling whether he bought it at a dealership, nor whether he paid cash. He may have bought it from a friend. Now it's in my possession, and I don't have a gun for it. But I know someone who does, and I plan to give it to him. Trace that.

Nothing will ever satisfy you, apart from the repeal of any and all laws regarding firearms. You've made that very clear. Guys like you are the reason gun owners are looked at in such a poor light. You refuse to even acknowledge that the industry should be, and could be, taking steps to reduce or fight crime. The industry can embrace it now and be in the driver's seat, or have it rammed down their throats in the future, because this kind of stuff IS on its way.

 

I have advocated repeal of very few laws, not "any and all" as you say. Specifically, I think Chicago and DC have laws that go too far, as mentioned above. Do you agree that they go too far? Do you think the second amendment applies outside the home? Do you think we should have to demonstrate a need for second amendment rights before exercising them?

 

I think that the firearms dealers who questioned the illegal sales the ATF was urging them to make in Fast and Furious were right to do so, to name one example I support of the industry trying to stem illegal sales. There are others, but your caricature is not worth wasting any more time.

 

you mean the program where the Obama Administration gave Assault Weapons to members of the Mexican Drug Cartel?

 

Yes, similar to what the previous administration did as part of the same Project Gunrunner.

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Nobody is tracking the beef into people's homes, only through a distribution channel. I suspect that this would be quite a bit more costly than you imagine, which is likely why I have not seen it proposed much. This would imply a ban on private sales of ammunition as well. And finally, as I pointed out elsewhere, it is quite possible to reload a primer. So now you have spent ammo from a range that belongs to person A, picked up by person B and reloaded, and then used to shoot person C. The police track the primers back to person A who is now suspect number one, how does that help anything?

Yes. so lets do nothing. This is why the micro stamping idea never gets anywhere. The nra and every other gun group starts screaming bloody murder that it costs too much and then the fanciful hypotheticals start streaming out.

 

You guys are so predictable. This is why gun owners will lose their rights. The fringe on both sides has portrayed them all as unbending and paranoid, and the middle just doesn't give a shit anymore.

 

I did not think asking what it would cost or how effective it would be is considered paranoid behavior. You presented the idea. If you want to convince others to support it, knowing what it will cost might help. Likewise, it does seem that it could be bypassed fairly easily. So if it could be bypassed fairly easily and it's cost is not easily quantified, then I would have a difficult time supporting it.

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Nobody is tracking the beef into people's homes, only through a distribution channel. I suspect that this would be quite a bit more costly than you imagine, which is likely why I have not seen it proposed much. This would imply a ban on private sales of ammunition as well. And finally, as I pointed out elsewhere, it is quite possible to reload a primer. So now you have spent ammo from a range that belongs to person A, picked up by person B and reloaded, and then used to shoot person C. The police track the primers back to person A who is now suspect number one, how does that help anything?

Yes. so lets do nothing. This is why the micro stamping idea never gets anywhere. The nra and every other gun group starts screaming bloody murder that it costs too much and then the fanciful hypotheticals start streaming out.

 

You guys are so predictable. This is why gun owners will lose their rights. The fringe on both sides has portrayed them all as unbending and paranoid, and the middle just doesn't give a shit anymore.

 

I did not think asking what it would cost or how effective it would be is considered paranoid behavior. You presented the idea. If you want to convince others to support it, knowing what it will cost might help. Likewise, it does seem that it could be bypassed fairly easily. So if it could be bypassed fairly easily and it's cost is not easily quantified, then I would have a difficult time supporting it.

Every single can of coke is uniquely identifiable and traceable to point of sale. We should be doing the same with bullets. Yes, It can be bypassed. Anything can be bypassed. The gun industry's continued push back against anything that could increase the traceability of firearms is pathetic. There is no rational reason for it. Lot numbers, batch numbers, serial numbers, UPCs, etc are used to trace thousands of products in use every day.

 

I'm not going to bother arguing this. It is an idea. The kneejerk reactions to it are quite telling.

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Every single can of coke is uniquely identifiable and traceable to point of sale. We should be doing the same with bullets. Yes, It can be bypassed. ...

 

Thanks for playing.

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The kneejerk reactions to it are quite telling.

 

As is the failure to answer my questions about gun control laws that go too far... ;)

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Nobody is tracking the beef into people's homes, only through a distribution channel. I suspect that this would be quite a bit more costly than you imagine, which is likely why I have not seen it proposed much. This would imply a ban on private sales of ammunition as well. And finally, as I pointed out elsewhere, it is quite possible to reload a primer. So now you have spent ammo from a range that belongs to person A, picked up by person B and reloaded, and then used to shoot person C. The police track the primers back to person A who is now suspect number one, how does that help anything?

Yes. so lets do nothing. This is why the micro stamping idea never gets anywhere. The nra and every other gun group starts screaming bloody murder that it costs too much and then the fanciful hypotheticals start streaming out.

 

You guys are so predictable. This is why gun owners will lose their rights. The fringe on both sides has portrayed them all as unbending and paranoid, and the middle just doesn't give a shit anymore.

 

I did not think asking what it would cost or how effective it would be is considered paranoid behavior. You presented the idea. If you want to convince others to support it, knowing what it will cost might help. Likewise, it does seem that it could be bypassed fairly easily. So if it could be bypassed fairly easily and it's cost is not easily quantified, then I would have a difficult time supporting it.

Every single can of coke is uniquely identifiable and traceable to point of sale. We should be doing the same with bullets. Yes, It can be bypassed. Anything can be bypassed. The gun industry's continued push back against anything that could increase the traceability of firearms is pathetic. There is no rational reason for it. Lot numbers, batch numbers, serial numbers, UPCs, etc are used to trace thousands of products in use every day.

 

I'm not going to bother arguing this. It is an idea. The kneejerk reactions to it are quite telling.

 

I am willing to listen to the idea, but you are going to have to do a better job of explaining it, what it would cost, and how it would be implemented if you ever expect to get people to agree with it. So you are saying only to trace it to the store? How would that help? I did a bit more googling, and still only find proposals that involve the firing pin stamping an identifier on the primer and/or case. Is there some cite you can point to, something with details of how this idea of yours would work?

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Nobody is tracking the beef into people's homes, only through a distribution channel. I suspect that this would be quite a bit more costly than you imagine, which is likely why I have not seen it proposed much. This would imply a ban on private sales of ammunition as well. And finally, as I pointed out elsewhere, it is quite possible to reload a primer. So now you have spent ammo from a range that belongs to person A, picked up by person B and reloaded, and then used to shoot person C. The police track the primers back to person A who is now suspect number one, how does that help anything?

Yes. so lets do nothing. This is why the micro stamping idea never gets anywhere. The nra and every other gun group starts screaming bloody murder that it costs too much and then the fanciful hypotheticals start streaming out.

 

You guys are so predictable. This is why gun owners will lose their rights. The fringe on both sides has portrayed them all as unbending and paranoid, and the middle just doesn't give a shit anymore.

 

I did not think asking what it would cost or how effective it would be is considered paranoid behavior. You presented the idea. If you want to convince others to support it, knowing what it will cost might help. Likewise, it does seem that it could be bypassed fairly easily. So if it could be bypassed fairly easily and it's cost is not easily quantified, then I would have a difficult time supporting it.

Every single can of coke is uniquely identifiable and traceable to point of sale. We should be doing the same with bullets. Yes, It can be bypassed. Anything can be bypassed. The gun industry's continued push back against anything that could increase the traceability of firearms is pathetic. There is no rational reason for it. Lot numbers, batch numbers, serial numbers, UPCs, etc are used to trace thousands of products in use every day.

 

I'm not going to bother arguing this. It is an idea. The kneejerk reactions to it are quite telling.

 

I am willing to listen to the idea, but you are going to have to do a better job of explaining it, what it would cost, and how it would be implemented if you ever expect to get people to agree with it. So you are saying only to trace it to the store? How would that help? I did a bit more googling, and still only find proposals that involve the firing pin stamping an identifier on the primer and/or case. Is there some cite you can point to, something with details of how this idea of yours would work?

It is an idea. That is all. Apart from pointing to everyday examples where this is already done, such as the soda can, I don't have anything to offer. Either this idea or the currently proposed firing pin stamping is fine with me. I feel marking the primer caps themselves would be more effective. The gun industry has fought this tooth and nail for years. It is at the point now where I don't see how we are not doing it. Every cash register in america has a bar code scanner and a camera pointed at it, so point of sale could very well help investigators trace a bullet to a purchaser, which may lead to a perpetrator. It is not guaranteed, but i learned long ago there are no guarantees in life, and you do the best you can with what you've got.

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Nobody is tracking the beef into people's homes, only through a distribution channel. I suspect that this would be quite a bit more costly than you imagine, which is likely why I have not seen it proposed much. This would imply a ban on private sales of ammunition as well. And finally, as I pointed out elsewhere, it is quite possible to reload a primer. So now you have spent ammo from a range that belongs to person A, picked up by person B and reloaded, and then used to shoot person C. The police track the primers back to person A who is now suspect number one, how does that help anything?

Yes. so lets do nothing. This is why the micro stamping idea never gets anywhere. The nra and every other gun group starts screaming bloody murder that it costs too much and then the fanciful hypotheticals start streaming out.

 

You guys are so predictable. This is why gun owners will lose their rights. The fringe on both sides has portrayed them all as unbending and paranoid, and the middle just doesn't give a shit anymore.

 

I did not think asking what it would cost or how effective it would be is considered paranoid behavior. You presented the idea. If you want to convince others to support it, knowing what it will cost might help. Likewise, it does seem that it could be bypassed fairly easily. So if it could be bypassed fairly easily and it's cost is not easily quantified, then I would have a difficult time supporting it.

Every single can of coke is uniquely identifiable and traceable to point of sale. We should be doing the same with bullets. Yes, It can be bypassed. Anything can be bypassed. The gun industry's continued push back against anything that could increase the traceability of firearms is pathetic. There is no rational reason for it. Lot numbers, batch numbers, serial numbers, UPCs, etc are used to trace thousands of products in use every day.

 

I'm not going to bother arguing this. It is an idea. The kneejerk reactions to it are quite telling.

 

I am willing to listen to the idea, but you are going to have to do a better job of explaining it, what it would cost, and how it would be implemented if you ever expect to get people to agree with it. So you are saying only to trace it to the store? How would that help? I did a bit more googling, and still only find proposals that involve the firing pin stamping an identifier on the primer and/or case. Is there some cite you can point to, something with details of how this idea of yours would work?

 

 

Really easy way to get around it. Exchange boxes of ammo with anyone willing. And keep trading it. Over and over. I remember the same idea being floated in response to the threat of microchipped currency. If it became a cultural tradition to exchange a 20 or two every time you met with someone, it would become impossible to track a bill from the time it left a bank until it was spent. Same idea. Unless it became unlawful to trade ammo straight across with friends or acquaintances at the range or elsewhere.

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Guest One of Five

So update: 52 of the 58 Sheriffs of New York State met this week and endorsed the above - sending it off to Cuomo.

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They were ignored.

 

Nice. Smart LEO's vs Dumb Polis. This country is doomed....

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They were ignored.

 

Nice. Smart LEO's vs Dumb Polis. This country is doomed....

 

Sheriffs are elected.

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That makes absolutely no sense. I have had my name run through PICS 30 or 40 times in the past year. The only thing I am afraid of is waiting in line 4 hours to get a box of .22 ammo, and then having to pay three times as much as I should for it to cover the costs of PICS.

 

they're ok with that. This is the same crowd that doesn't mind doubling the price of gasoline to prevent people from using their cars.

 

But ask them to show an ID at the voting booth and they fucking lose a gasket!

 

Have all of you not yet figured out that special eddy is simply trolling. He knows all this stuff, he's just trying to tweak your feathers. enjoy, but I just don't have the paitence for huis trolls anymore.

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I found a box of .50 cal in the closet recently. I assume my brother bought it when he had a gun that fired it. No telling whether he bought it at a dealership, nor whether he paid cash. He may have bought it from a friend. Now it's in my possession, and I don't have a gun for it. But I know someone who does, and I plan to give it to him. Trace that.

 

Nothing will ever satisfy you, apart from the repeal of any and all laws regarding firearms. You've made that very clear. Guys like you are the reason gun owners are looked at in such a poor light. You refuse to even acknowledge that the industry should be, and could be, taking steps to reduce or fight crime. The industry can embrace it now and be in the driver's seat, or have it rammed down their throats in the future, because this kind of stuff IS on its way.

 

If you think Tom wants a repeal of any and all firearms laws, you haven't been paying attention.... at all. And should probably just stop talking now before you embarass yourself any further. I don't think you can find a single instance on this forum of a pro-gun person who advocates for NO gun laws. I dare you to try. What we HAVE said, if you would bother to keep up is that we endorse many of the provisions of these bills that strengthen enforcement and punishment for crimes using guns. What we DO NOT advocate for is useless, feel good measures that restrict our rights while having LITLLE or NO effect on the actual problem. You DO get the distinction, don't you?

 

The reason the original AWB was rammed through, was because of supposed "pro-gun" people like you, primarily hunters, who saw an AWB and thought - "fuck it, that doesn't affect me. Why do I care if they ban evil black rifles? I have a revolver or a bolt gun." But what you don't get is that the previous AWB had ZERO effect on crime, but made illegal an entire class of weapons that were and are used everyday for legal and legitimate purposes. Get on board for the big win, because you are part of the problem. Once you let some of these rights go, they are coming after your guns next.

 

But just stop saying that we want ALL guns laws repealed. It just ain't true and it makes you look like an idiot. I actually advocate for better funding for the ATF so they can enforce laws (as long as they get better leaders :P ) and I advocate for a repeal or modification of some of the silly legislation the NRA pushed through that limited data gathering and such. So its a fallacy that we want no gun laws or easy access to guns by everyone.

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Really easy way to get around it. Exchange boxes of ammo with anyone willing. And keep trading it. Over and over. I remember the same idea being floated in response to the threat of microchipped currency. If it became a cultural tradition to exchange a 20 or two every time you met with someone, it would become impossible to track a bill from the time it left a bank until it was spent. Same idea. Unless it became unlawful to trade ammo straight across with friends or acquaintances at the range or elsewhere.

 

Wait a second ... why would law-abiding ammo purchasers want to do that? And wouldn't the profit incentive for the the scofflaw ammo purchasers introduce a higher cost for ammo, thus leading to a default Bull Gator's ripoff of the Chris Rock sketch on $1000 bullets?

 

Ramwell's idea seems possible ... each engraved identifier could just be bar-coded to the box, when the ammo purchaser buys don't they have to show their license anyway? Licensed dealers have the scanners and computer connection, they would scan the driver's license, and scan the box of ammo.

 

Lessee the possible scenarios ...

 

a. Law-abiding person buys ammo, id goes into registry, law-abiding person avoids giving away, selling or abandoning the ammo to someone else possibly a scofflaw because they don't want to be connected even ancillarily to a crime. That ammo is not used in a crime. Plus one.

 

b. Law-abiding person buys ammo, id goes into registry, law-abiding person legally gives away, sells or abandons the ammo, it is used to commit a crime. Buyer cooperates with police and eventually the person who acquired the ammo and used it in a crime, is identified. Plus one.

 

c. Law-abiding person buys ammo, id goes into registry, law-abiding person legally gives away, sells or abandons the ammo, it is used to commit a crime. Buyer chooses not to cooperate with police even though he or she is innocent. Criminal is not identified, but legal buyer ends up wasting a lot of time defending him/herself. Minus one.

 

d. Law-abiding person buys ammo, id goes into registry, later, law-abiding person is faced with committing a crime with that ammo and chooses not to, knowing the high likelihood that he or she will be caught. Plus one.

 

e. Law-abiding person buys ammo, id goes into registry, later, law-abiding person is faced with committing a crime with that ammo but does it anyway, and is caught. Plus one.

 

f. Law-abiding person buys ammo, id goes into registry, later, law-abiding person is faced with committing a crime with that ammo but does it anyway, and is not caught because the engraving is unreadable for some reason. Minus one.

 

g. Law-disobeying person buys ammo, id goes into registry, engraving is defaced, ammo is used to commit crime. Perp is not caught. Minus one.

 

h. Law-disobeying person buys ammo, id goes into registry, engraving is defaced, ammo is used to commit crime. But enough of the engraving is still available in the stress signature of the metal to identify purchaser. Perp is caught. Plus one.

 

i. Law-disobeying person buys ammo, id goes into registry, ammo is sold at a markup (perhaps through several people) to another criminal who commits a crime, but the lack of cooperation makes it impossible to trace the criminal. The higher price of ammo discourages the use of gun related crime, in a variation of Chris Rock's "Thousand Dollar bullet" sketch. Crime is reduced in a certain percentage of cases. Plus one.

 

j. Law-disobeying person buys ammo, id goes into registry, ammo is sold at a markup (perhaps through several people) to another criminal who commits a crime, but the lack of cooperation makes it impossible to trace the criminal. The higher price of ammo does not discourage the use of gun related crime. Crime is not reduced somewhat in these cases. Minus one.

 

k. Law-disobeying person buys ammo, id goes into registry, ammo is sold at a markup (perhaps through several people) to another criminal who commits a crime, but in order to avoid prosecution on unrelated crimes, perpetrators cooperate with enforcement to help trace the user of the ammo. Perp is caught. Plus one.

 

k. Law-disobeying person buys ammo, id goes into registry, ammo is sold at a markup (perhaps through several people) to another criminal who commits a crime, but in order to avoid prosecution on unrelated crimes, perpetrators cooperate with enforcement to help trace the user of the ammo, however all trails turn up cold. Perp is not caught. Minus one.

 

l. Law-obeying person buys old "grandfathered" ammo through private sale, id does not go into registry, ammo is used in crime, no ability to trace. Minus one.

 

m. Law-obeying person buys old "grandfathered" ammo through private sale, id does not go into registry, ammo is not used in crime. Plus one.

 

n. Law-obeying person buys old "grandfathered" ammo through private sale, id does not go into registry, ammo is so old that it cannot effectively be used in crime. Plus one.

 

o. Law-obeying person legally loads own ammo using components that cannot be identified, ammo is not used in crime. Plus one.

 

p. Law-obeying person legally loads own ammo using components that cannot be identified, ammo is used in crime. Perpetrator cannot be traced. Minus one.

 

q. Law-disobeying person legally loads own ammo using components that cannot be identified or steals ammo that is used in crime. Perpetrator cannot be traced. Minus one.

 

r. Law-disobeying person acquires traceable ammo, commits crime but then either kills himself or escapes/eludes capture. Minus one.

 

 

That's all I can think of. What are we missing?

 

Now, this exercise gives equal weights to all scenarios, which obviously isn't reasonable, since there are so many more law-obeyers than law-disobeyers, BUT not all of these scenarios are equally as likely, as there are not too many people who would be willing to load their own ammo. So assuming the imbalances roughly balance out, we're so far at 9 pluses and 9 minuses. That doesn't necessarily indicate that it would work, but also it tends to suggest that it wouldn't necessarily be a failure either. If there was some way of weighting these possibilities with actual purchase and crime data we might have a better idea.

 

 

I think there may be something to this though ... recent computerized tracking of purchasers of components of methamphetamines in Tennessee has yielded arrests (i.e. http://www.johnsonci...le.php?id=99405,) and if they can do that with a $5 box of pseudoephedrine, then they can do it with a $20 box of ammo. The reality for which a plus-minus scenario doesn't necessarily account is that there are a lot of rather unintelligent criminals in the world.

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I don't think you can find a single instance on this forum of a pro-gun person who advocates for NO gun laws.

 

Gouvernail was interpreting "infringed" in pretty absolutist terms the other day.

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I don't think you can find a single instance on this forum of a pro-gun person who advocates for NO gun laws.

 

Gouvernail was interpreting "infringed" in pretty absolutist terms the other day.

 

Right up until I started asking about "abridged" and the FEC. ;)

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I found a box of .50 cal in the closet recently. I assume my brother bought it when he had a gun that fired it. No telling whether he bought it at a dealership, nor whether he paid cash. He may have bought it from a friend. Now it's in my possession, and I don't have a gun for it. But I know someone who does, and I plan to give it to him. Trace that.

 

Nothing will ever satisfy you, apart from the repeal of any and all laws regarding firearms. You've made that very clear. Guys like you are the reason gun owners are looked at in such a poor light. You refuse to even acknowledge that the industry should be, and could be, taking steps to reduce or fight crime. The industry can embrace it now and be in the driver's seat, or have it rammed down their throats in the future, because this kind of stuff IS on its way.

 

If you think Tom wants a repeal of any and all firearms laws, you haven't been paying attention.... at all. And should probably just stop talking now before you embarass yourself any further. I don't think you can find a single instance on this forum of a pro-gun person who advocates for NO gun laws. I dare you to try. What we HAVE said, if you would bother to keep up is that we endorse many of the provisions of these bills that strengthen enforcement and punishment for crimes using guns. What we DO NOT advocate for is useless, feel good measures that restrict our rights while having LITLLE or NO effect on the actual problem. You DO get the distinction, don't you?

 

The reason the original AWB was rammed through, was because of supposed "pro-gun" people like you, primarily hunters, who saw an AWB and thought - "fuck it, that doesn't affect me. Why do I care if they ban evil black rifles? I have a revolver or a bolt gun." But what you don't get is that the previous AWB had ZERO effect on crime, but made illegal an entire class of weapons that were and are used everyday for legal and legitimate purposes. Get on board for the big win, because you are part of the problem. Once you let some of these rights go, they are coming after your guns next.

 

But just stop saying that we want ALL guns laws repealed. It just ain't true and it makes you look like an idiot. I actually advocate for better funding for the ATF so they can enforce laws (as long as they get better leaders :P ) and I advocate for a repeal or modification of some of the silly legislation the NRA pushed through that limited data gathering and such. So its a fallacy that we want no gun laws or easy access to guns by everyone.

Calm the fuck down, flyboy. You NEED people like me on your side, because I represent a far larger number of gun owners than you do. With out support from people like me, you WILL lose your rights. You're right, I did support the first AWB. I don't support this one. Immediately dismissing any idea that you perceive to be gun control legislation and then tossing aside anyone who isn't 100% hardcore pro gun and 100% right wing, is why the rabid gun owners are looked at so poorly.

 

Try working on that image problem. It will probably pay a lot higher dividends than frothing at the mouth.

 

 

I often wonder if the caustic response to any kind of legislation that would make a gun crime easier to track is borne out of some kind of latent psychopathic fantasy that the individual may have to "off" someone and not want to get caught. Honestly. Even the simple idea to track ammo purchases like we do hunting licenses results in rabid attack from the pro gun lobby. Forget micro stamping, just track the damn sales and provide a do not sell registry. Nothing unconstitutional about that. But fuck no... You guys make it sound like the world would fucking end if that were to happen.

 

Think about why you are viewed the way you are. You have brought this shit on yourselves. The industry has failed to regulate itself and now regulation will be forced directly up all our asses.

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I found a box of .50 cal in the closet recently. I assume my brother bought it when he had a gun that fired it. No telling whether he bought it at a dealership, nor whether he paid cash. He may have bought it from a friend. Now it's in my possession, and I don't have a gun for it. But I know someone who does, and I plan to give it to him. Trace that.

 

Nothing will ever satisfy you, apart from the repeal of any and all laws regarding firearms. You've made that very clear. Guys like you are the reason gun owners are looked at in such a poor light. You refuse to even acknowledge that the industry should be, and could be, taking steps to reduce or fight crime. The industry can embrace it now and be in the driver's seat, or have it rammed down their throats in the future, because this kind of stuff IS on its way.

 

If you think Tom wants a repeal of any and all firearms laws, you haven't been paying attention.... at all. And should probably just stop talking now before you embarass yourself any further. I don't think you can find a single instance on this forum of a pro-gun person who advocates for NO gun laws. I dare you to try. What we HAVE said, if you would bother to keep up is that we endorse many of the provisions of these bills that strengthen enforcement and punishment for crimes using guns. What we DO NOT advocate for is useless, feel good measures that restrict our rights while having LITLLE or NO effect on the actual problem. You DO get the distinction, don't you?

 

The reason the original AWB was rammed through, was because of supposed "pro-gun" people like you, primarily hunters, who saw an AWB and thought - "fuck it, that doesn't affect me. Why do I care if they ban evil black rifles? I have a revolver or a bolt gun." But what you don't get is that the previous AWB had ZERO effect on crime, but made illegal an entire class of weapons that were and are used everyday for legal and legitimate purposes. Get on board for the big win, because you are part of the problem. Once you let some of these rights go, they are coming after your guns next.

 

But just stop saying that we want ALL guns laws repealed. It just ain't true and it makes you look like an idiot. I actually advocate for better funding for the ATF so they can enforce laws (as long as they get better leaders :P/> ) and I advocate for a repeal or modification of some of the silly legislation the NRA pushed through that limited data gathering and such. So its a fallacy that we want no gun laws or easy access to guns by everyone.

Calm the fuck down, flyboy. You NEED people like me on your side, because I represent a far larger number of gun owners than you do. With out support from people like me, you WILL lose your rights. You're right, I did support the first AWB. I don't support this one. Immediately dismissing any idea that you perceive to be gun control legislation and then tossing aside anyone who isn't 100% hardcore pro gun and 100% right wing, is why the rabid gun owners are looked at so poorly.

 

Try working on that image problem. It will probably pay a lot higher dividends than frothing at the mouth.

 

 

I often wonder if the caustic response to any kind of legislation that would make a gun crime easier to track is borne out of some kind of latent psychopathic fantasy that the individual may have to "off" someone and not want to get caught. Honestly. Even the simple idea to track ammo purchases like we do hunting licenses results in rabid attack from the pro gun lobby. Forget micro stamping, just track the damn sales and provide a do not sell registry. Nothing unconstitutional about that. But fuck no... You guys make it sound like the world would fucking end if that were to happen.

 

Think about why you are viewed the way you are. You have brought this shit on yourselves. The industry has failed to regulate itself and now regulation will be forced directly up all our asses.

 

+1

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Think about why you are viewed the way you are.

Illiteracy is my first guess, if you think I have ever written anything about repealing any and all gun laws.

 

I'm not going to waste a lot of time thinking about a completely inaccurate caricature.

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So far the only actual item that you seem to disagree with any gun owner on this thread with is tracking ammo purchases, and that is not an actual proposal but a vague concept. If there were a real proposal or details then people might be able to discuss it rationally, but there is not. Such a proposal could, I imagine be done in a way that is minimally invasive and relatively inexpensive, however I suspect it would also then be ineffective. At the same time, it is entirely possible that such a proposal could involve high fees and hour long waits to simply buy a box of .22 to shoot at cans or squirrels. When the idea is nothing but a vague concept, you are going to have some folks who imagine the fully baked proposal will look like the former while others will imagine it will look like the latter. Don't get mad at folks for imagining it could look like the latter when so many other proposals have turned out to be just like that.

 

Let me give you a for instance to help illustrate what I am talking about. I have a little .32 handgun that I bought for $100 a year ago. My brother, who also owns guns, wants to teach his wife how to shoot but his .40 is probably not the right gun for her to learn with. If I want to give him or loan him my .32, the only way to do that is to go to a gun store and pay $60 and wait an hour or more to transfer it with a PICS check. For him to give it back to me would require that process be reversed. So a loan to my brother who I know is legal and who already owns guns will cost, at a minimum, 3 or 4 hours and $120 or more than what I actually paid for the gun. When someone proposes tracking and instant checks for ammo it is very easy to picture it resulting in ammo costing 4x what it does today and also taking hours to complete a simple purchase. At the same time, my home reloading setup would soon be viewed as a loophole by many who want even tighter restrictions. If you don't want people to fear it turns into that, then be prepared to explain in sufficient detail why it would not when there is plenty of practical experience that says it will.

 

I make my living coding and working with large data sets, so I know that a system that is at least moderately effective and relatively inexpensive, is possible at least in theory. What I am unconvinced is that our current govt, police forces, and distribution networks are capable of implementing and operating it that way. If you want to convince me, then you are going to need to come to the table with some more detail and explanation of how it will work and what it will cost.

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<SNIP>

I often wonder if the caustic response to any kind of legislation that would make a gun crime easier to track is borne out of some kind of latent psychopathic fantasy that the individual may have to "off" someone and not want to get caught. Honestly. Even the simple idea to track ammo purchases like we do hunting licenses results in rabid attack from the pro gun lobby. Forget micro stamping, just track the damn sales and provide a do not sell registry. Nothing unconstitutional about that. But fuck no... You guys make it sound like the world would fucking end if that were to happen.

 

Think about why you are viewed the way you are. You have brought this shit on yourselves. The industry has failed to regulate itself and now regulation will be forced directly up all our asses.

 

I'll offer that the fervent opposition to gun registration/additional controls is because our government has repeatedly shown itself to apply legislation and interpret precedent in a manner that helps it to achieve the current politically expedient goal. In plain language - the slippery slope concern is quite real and valid, and many people feel that we're on the precipice of that slope.

 

With that understanding, the idea that "we have brought this shit upon ourselves" is a bit of an overstatement, given the constant attempts by certain political entities to indeed encroach on and if possible, eliminate our rights to own firearms give those who wish to preserve those rights a very good reason to maintain vigilance.

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So far the only actual item that you seem to disagree with any gun owner on this thread with is tracking ammo purchases, and that is not an actual proposal but a vague concept. If there were a real proposal or details then people might be able to discuss it rationally, but there is not. Such a proposal could, I imagine be done in a way that is minimally invasive and relatively inexpensive, however I suspect it would also then be ineffective. At the same time, it is entirely possible that such a proposal could involve high fees and hour long waits to simply buy a box of .22 to shoot at cans or squirrels. When the idea is nothing but a vague concept, you are going to have some folks who imagine the fully baked proposal will look like the former while others will imagine it will look like the latter. Don't get mad at folks for imagining it could look like the latter when so many other proposals have turned out to be just like that.

 

Let me give you a for instance to help illustrate what I am talking about. I have a little .32 handgun that I bought for $100 a year ago. My brother, who also owns guns, wants to teach his wife how to shoot but his .40 is probably not the right gun for her to learn with. If I want to give him or loan him my .32, the only way to do that is to go to a gun store and pay $60 and wait an hour or more to transfer it with a PICS check. For him to give it back to me would require that process be reversed. So a loan to my brother who I know is legal and who already owns guns will cost, at a minimum, 3 or 4 hours and $120 or more than what I actually paid for the gun. When someone proposes tracking and instant checks for ammo it is very easy to picture it resulting in ammo costing 4x what it does today and also taking hours to complete a simple purchase. At the same time, my home reloading setup would soon be viewed as a loophole by many who want even tighter restrictions. If you don't want people to fear it turns into that, then be prepared to explain in sufficient detail why it would not when there is plenty of practical experience that says it will.

 

Unless you transfer ownership to your sister-in-law, you will not have to go through any background checks to loan her your firearm. Where did you read that? Of course, you will should be fully responsible for anything she does with it unless you transfer ownership. But you already knew that.

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