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      Moderation Team Change   06/16/2017

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invictus

International C Class Catamaran Championship Falmouth 2013

1,250 posts in this topic

We seem to be missing a thread on this event - how remiss!

 

Having been given the honour of hosting this cult event, we have been looking to see how we can make it the coolest event of 2013. SA is the place for C class wingnuts of both active and armchair variety, and we welcome all.

 

Following the ICCCC at NYYC and those other people copied and pressed the "scale" button, interest in things wing has never been higher. But this is the original and best - we dont have to constrain the design to keep costs down, we still have basically the same class rules as the IYRU derived over 60 years ago.

 

You never know who is going to turn up until the start line, but we are expecting that 10 teams and 16 boats will be descending into the little village of Mylor in September.

 

Italy

France

UK

Portugal

Switzerland

Canada

USA

Hungary

 

We have a facebook page (https://www.facebook.com/LittleAC2013?ref=hl)- but SA is great for getting discussions going.

 

We are looking to bring live webcasting similar to CLEAN;s coverage of the NYYC event, and we want to get even more camera coverage this time. We dont plan to mess with the match racing tradition, and this will be the best of 7 races as it always has been, but we could consider other ideas elsewhere? WHAT DO YOU WANT TO SEE!

 

Its a really beautiful part of England, - come and see the racing first hand - and we are trying to get the last British C class out of the Maritime Museums storage lot and get them to run a C class exhibition running up to the event.

 

So lets keep this as the central thread for ICCCC 2013 - and as for websites, the event website www.i-cccc.com will be updated with the Notice of Race as soon as the running schedule has been agreed.

 

I look forward to seeing the comments!

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I am sure that ClarkSail will be there to help with the coverage. How about clean himself? When you get the ICCCC site up and running maybe you can add links for places to stay for those traveling to see the event. As to the format, I hope you do some of what Steve did in Newport with fleet races at the begininng of the week then go to match race eliminations. Wish you the best of luck and hope to see you there.

 

ED: Any way to pin this thread until the event is over?

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2 good ideas. Willy - hopefully you can answer for Clarksail - can you do webcasting?

 

I have tried Clean a couple of times, but stuff keeps getting in the way for both sides, but we need to start getting stuff in place now. What would be really cool would be to have some camera UAVs to get some great aerial shots. Paul Larson has offered his services to commentate, and he is absolutely great at this, like the SA chaps, he oozes enthusiasm (some sailing commentary can be BOOOOOOORING!)

 

I am thinking probably 3 cameras on each boat, plus mics (Fred has said he was glad the mics didnt work last time, so perhaps we need bleepers as well!).

 

At the end it would be great to have enough footage to do a DVD to capture the event for a long term record of the event.

 

GPS is a must. The 2007 event had GPS on Alpha and Cogito, and it is great to see how Fred won, and what a bad tack costs in terms of time and distance. A fleet race set of GPS data would be interesting too. GPS at 2010 didnt happen, and this means that designers for the next series, particularly newcomers, have to make up a lot of figures.

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Hi Norman,

 

I know the guys at www.steadymotion.com. I don't think they can cover the whole race but it would be great to prepare some nice 10 minutes daily highlights. Their flights are 15 minutes and they have 2 or 3 helicopters. They feature a proprietary stabilizer system and videos are excellent as you can see:

 

 

If you want I can talk to them to get in touch with you.

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For aerial shots maybe a ballon at the weather and lee marks carrying the camera?

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Falmouth is pretty good for aeriel shots when stood on the ground if the race course is in the right place

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Something on or hovering over the windward mark could be good. Something on the cttee boat would be good too.

 

If anyone has links to people who might be able to do this, let me know.

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The ONLY crew decision we have made is that Tom Phipps will be at the helm. The second seat is still up for consideration. Tom will be great on the helm and with his race head on, will address that area of experience we lacked in 2010, but the second person is probably someone who knows how to make the wing work properly.

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Aerial photography is good, but helicopters are not.

Don't bring a 1000 hp fan to our party.

SHC

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Hi Steve

 

I am not quite in Freds domain in terms of the depth of my pockets! Be assured, no Helicopters! (didnt the Wingmill chaps blame a chopper for their demise?)

 

N

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Wingmill seemed to start flailing around as soon as the cat started moving through the steep chop, causing some hobby horsing.

 

Within (brief) minutes the pendulam effect looked quite bizzare and dangerous ... then the rogue helicopter wind blast flattened it :P

 

It was quite gusty with 8-20+ knots variable wind, also that day.

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The aerial shots of Sailrocket's record run were filmed with a rc plane, maybe that's the way to go.

I like the idea of an historical C class exhibition.

Maybe other obscure historic sailing vessels like Catenate or even Sailrocket can be invited to the exhibition.

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The Wingmill wing wasn't mass balanced, so unless the leeward tip was locked in, it would and could get ugly really very fast. That spot in the lee of Arthur's Seat can be very gusty as well. Edge 2 had already determined that it was too weird for them. They had conceded the race and returned to base.

Otip was photographed destroying herself from a helicopter.

Edge 4 capsized shortly after a copter passed upwind. More than a 90% chance that they were capsized by the down wash. They won't admit it, but the shoe fits.

The little quad copters can be very cool.

SHC

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Normann,

 

Are you going to Quiberon in May ?

one of the staff who will be on the rib, is engineer specialist in data acquisitions.

Among other he has developped system with camera on flying kite and/or helium balloon.

 

Cheers

 

W

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Well, back in the day when we anarchist/Peace Squadron protesters sailed out to protest those black ugly US nuke armed? subs coming into Auckland harbour, on one occasion some authority with fractional intelligence, ordered choppers to knock us down ... and dozens were so, capsized in front of the sub, which stopped, went into reverse and its arse with flailing prop tips lifted up out of the water, aerating a huge area ... and nearby the head of police on board a Coast Guard? power boat, lost all prop traction and was sliding, motors screaming towards certain death; the sub skipper was screaming orders ( I couldn't hear him above the bedlam but could see his mouth rapidly moving) and luckily the sub went into neutral, otherwise the powerboat with previously bristling authority, but now very pale faced, would have been minced.

All this chaos was caused by hovering helicopters, not to mention a steel 40 foot trimaran ramming the sub and climbing halfway up its side.

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These come from Christian Fevrier/bluegreen and shows the moment before disaster, then the moment of impact - but there is no smoking gun shot of the helicopter.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

windmill-photo-christian-fc3a9vrier.jpg

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Well, back in the day when we anarchist/Peace Squadron protesters sailed out to protest those black ugly US nuke armed? subs coming into Auckland harbour, on one occasion some authority with fractional intelligence, ordered choppers to knock us down ... and dozens were so, capsized in front of the sub, which stopped, went into reverse and its arse with flailing prop tips lifted up out of the water, aerating a huge area ... and nearby the head of police on board a Coast Guard? power boat, lost all prop traction and was sliding, motors screaming towards certain death; the sub skipper was screaming orders ( I couldn't hear him above the bedlam but could see his mouth rapidly moving) and luckily the sub went into neutral, otherwise the powerboat with previously bristling authority, but now very pale faced, would have been minced.

All this chaos was caused by hovering helicopters, not to mention a steel 40 foot trimaran ramming the sub and climbing halfway up its side.

 

Now thats anarchy!

Not quite related to helicopters, but the Nuke story reminded me of another story told to me by Duncan Maclane - he was sailing Stars and Stripes (the 1988 AC catamaran) around the waters inside San Diego, when a nuke submarine came in. Thinking it was rather risky to cut in front of it, they went behind, but hadnt realised that when these subs have some speed, their wakes are absolutely HUGE - he said they went down the roller coaster, and then up the other side, launching into mid-air and came crashing down with a huge bang. Nothing seemed to be damaged, and Duncan said - go and check all the strain gauges, THAT is the biggest load this boat will ever see - and the loads came out exactly at what the boat had been designed for.

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My son was capsized by the coastguard chopper in portland on his Dragoon!

 

Makes you wonder how they ever manage to helicopter rescue anyone!

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The aerial shots of Sailrocket's record run were filmed with a rc plane, maybe that's the way to go.

I like the idea of an historical C class exhibition.

Maybe other obscure historic sailing vessels like Catenate or even Sailrocket can be invited to the exhibition.

 

I shall be working hard to get Emma Hamilton back in the water for this summer, would be bad form to not sail down and buzz the tower :-)

 

Not sure what has happened to the rebuild of Ocelot but I shall be chasing up the owner to see if there is any chance of her putting in an appearance as well

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The aerial shots of Sailrocket's record run were filmed with a rc plane, maybe that's the way to go.

I like the idea of an historical C class exhibition.

Maybe other obscure historic sailing vessels like Catenate or even Sailrocket can be invited to the exhibition.

 

I shall be working hard to get Emma Hamilton back in the water for this summer, would be bad form to not sail down and buzz the tower :-)

 

Not sure what has happened to the rebuild of Ocelot but I shall be chasing up the owner to see if there is any chance of her putting in an appearance as well

 

That would be HUGE - yes, I would LOVE to see Ocelot (where is she based?) and L-Hamilton in Mylor. Let us know if you will need any facilities.

 

As I recall, Lady Hamilton is not a C anymore, you have a big rig on her, and was she lengthened? This doesnt matter in terms of visiting, I would say its still good to see her. We will have to think about whether there can be an opportunity to sail against the modern boats!

 

N

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Hi Norman,

 

Another option for helicopter drone filming was featured a while back on the Daily Sail...this is the link:

 

http://www.thedailysail.com/dinghy/11/60066/0/video-helidrone

 

They did a great video of the Eurosaf regatta last year.

 

Exciting times....it will be fantastic to see some history to put all this in context!

 

John

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Quick Question.

 

Did Otip get a chance to do many races against freedoms wing before the capsize? How did it compare to the more conventional wing?

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To my knowledge, no, but someone may correct me on this.

 

Their wing was unable to twist and its planform was far from ideal - a rectangular plank! In terms of 2D aerodynamics though it was hard to beat, having slats and double slotted flaps - so I can see why there is interest in looking for comparisons.

 

OTIPs foil arrangement was also interesting, with the daggerboards ahead of the main beam. This was no doubt driven by the fact that the base of the wing sat where the daggerboard should be, so this must have increased rudder loading significantly, but I presume that they balanced these to take the load off the tiller. Its a shame she crashed, it would have been an interesting test.

 

Freedoms wing was unable to twist the main wing, but their flap was deformable, and so gave a measure of twist which the Aussies didnt have except differential flap deflection on upper and lower portions.

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Otip finished race 1. They were ahead at the first mark by a whole lot, but this was mostly due to Freedom's Wing getting becalmed or something like that. They went from minutes ahead to minutes behind on the third leg. This was the old wide reach triangle. They finished way back.

In race 2 the blew up.

Race 3 they borrowed a Barry Marmion soft sail and finished an hour behind. They were protested for using non CIC equipment and resigned from the regatta.

Otip wasn't very fast. She was heavy. Upon return to France she was re rigged as a 3 man boat with a kite. This was probably what she was designed to do all along, the C Class challenge was a diversion.

SHC

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Hmmmmmmm, nice control for that little spurt there. Perhaps they'll just enter this thing as a C-cat?

 

Thoughts people?

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Cogito rises from the dead....

 

 

The wing to USA 104 “Cogito,” the spar famously destroyed at the 2010 International C-Class Catamaran Challenge Cup after the start of race one, has been reanimated. Over the past few months Steve Clark and the Cogito Project stitched the old spar back together and outfitted it with all new surfaces using materials from Swedish composite company Oxeon. The wing was detailed and finished at Guck Inc. of Bristol, Rhode Island, and on Tuesday went up for the first time in three years. The design is essentially the same as the one first conceived by Duncan MacLane in 1993, but the wing weighed in at 148 lbs, down from 178 at last weigh in before the 2010 crash. Clark attributes the weight loss primarily the stiffer and lighter TeXtreme composites provided by Oxeon, and a few changes to the geometry that this afforded.

“The wing went up with no real drama,” said Clark on Tuesday. “We will see how it behaves when it’s really loaded up, but most everything worked as expected. We need a little more clearance between the the number two and number three elements but that’s not a big deal. I’m really happy with the lighter weight.”

The Cogito Project plan to enter the Cogito with its remade wing in the 2013 International C-Class Catamaran Challenge Cup. The team has not revealed who will be at the helm.

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Paterson composites and Object 2 have plenty of carbon dust floating about the shop, things are happening there for sure.

 

Canaan will be back on the water soon.....Possibly looking a little out of fashion next to the french. Mon Dieu!

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Hope our next boat works better than this..

 

post-1634-0-63670000-1365343357_thumb.jpg

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Hmmmmmmm, nice control for that little spurt there. Perhaps they'll just enter this thing as a C-cat?

 

Thoughts people?

I'd just as soon be able to see the foils. Martin Fischer says there is a team working on the Flying Phantom(including him) but the foils in this video are not his-they are the work of the "other designer".

I seriously doubt they're working well enough to compete with a "C". And they're dead in light air. Would be a good demo in foiling conditions, though.

Blunted, are you guys going for full flying? Huh?!

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Blunted,

 

(Doug)-I am not sure how much dead air there will be in the I4C given it's venue. I understand you Canadians :ph34r: have another new boat and maybe more than one wing in the works. Do you have any comments that would confirm or deny this. Hope to be able to take time off to go see the event.

 

TTS

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well.. hopefully i will be chasing them in a newly finished foiling moth, and can get a bit of headcam footage for the video mixdown...

if not we will definitely be out on the water to watch and i will try to get some sort of camera together...

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Blunted,

 

(Doug)-I am not sure how much dead air there will be in the I4C given it's venue. I understand you Canadians :ph34r: have another new boat and maybe more than one wing in the works. Do you have any comments that would confirm or deny this. Hope to be able to take time off to go see the event.

 

TTS

 

Yes we are generally planning for hurricane type conditions, it's essentially the Irish sea during hurricane season soooooooo it will make the first half of Newport in 2010 look like a picnic in all likelihood.

 

New boat, new wing, why yes of course, we had her out last year for some period of time and yes we have a new wing with some new developments, perhaps we'll throw some video up soon of some of her exploits and her new bells and whistles or at least some titty shots to keep everyone interested. she certainly has a bunch more top end in her than Canaan, we just need to find the courage to use it!

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More please.

 

Conjecture, disinformation, falsehoods and even outright lies would be welcome vs. this horrible silence.

 

Need some buzz!

 

I'll start:

 

I hear the boys from Switzerland foiled straight upwind at 25 knots in 6 knots true wind speed with naked frauhlein carbon figureheads off the bows. Busty.

 

No lie. I swear it's true!

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I hear the boys from Switzerland foiled straight upwind at 25 knots in 6 knots true wind speed with naked frauhlein carbon figureheads off the bows. Busty.

I saw them last weekend. Steadily foiling at about 35 knots downwind. They can dynamically modify their foil shape from J (to I) to L to V. I think it's hydraulic, they have some kind of lever on each side. Impressive.

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I was sorry to read this. Reports at the beginning of the year led me to believe this would be the case. With that stated it would be nice to hear how all the different teams are progressing. Are the Italians still in the game. What is happening with Inviticus? How about Tony in Portugal as well as the French teams. When is the new Canadian boat hitting the water. How is Steve coming on Wing #3? Have the Swiss teams got a boat together? And all the other pieces that are leading up to what should be a great ICCCC.

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I was looking forward to that-too bad.

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Too bad, I planned to travel in France and already booked a room in St Pierre Quiberon at "Hotel de la Plage" to make some pics of the new boats.

 

By the way, Does anybody knows if there is any significant difference between the Thin Ply Technology used by the Swiss challenge and the TeXtreme/Oxeon stuff above-mentionned ?

 

Cheers Everybody

 

W

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TPT is essentially very light prepreg. It is unidierectional and has to be stacked up to make a laminate.

This is done by sprading the yarn bundles into thin tapes and then impregnating them with resin.

There are some pretty special tricks to doing this.

What TPT does beyond just make bvery light prepreg is to build "complexes" which are stacked laminates ready to be installed in the mold or wrapped around a manderl.

They use automated computer tape laying machines to do this, so the assemply can be pretty fussy with complex angles and ply adds and drops. Combined with the lighter material, this allows for a whole lot of engineered trickery and, ( according to them at least) vastly improved structures.

TeXtreme, uses the same "Spread Tow" stunt to reduce the weight per suare meter of the carbon yarns, but holds them in the flattened position with a very light heat melt. The then inter leave the tows, like a flat basket weave, to build balanced 0/90 fabric as light as 80 g/m^2. This can then be processed to taste.

 

I have been using the TeXtreme stuff because I don't want to spend the doish to build high temperature molds necessary to process prepreg. It would be simplistic to say "I can't afford to" because I probly could. I just couldn't do other things as well. I thing the latest generations of room temperature laminating resins, when combined with a frestanding post cure are more than adequate for wing skins and hulls. I spend 30 years learning how to do simple laminates that are very light and controlled, so I don't think I am giving away much if anything, and my tooling costs about 1/3 of what it would if i cooked everything.

SHC

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Thanks TornadoSail2016,

 

Thank you very much Mr Clark, very informative.

 

Just like for the arrow pultruted sections used to make ribs of your open wing,

 

I like your philosophy:

 

"Weighting thoroughly the marginal efficiency of the extra complexity"

 

My best wishes for your trip in UK

 

Cheers Everybody

 

W

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Thanks TornadoSail2016,

 

Thank you very much Mr Clark, very informative.

 

Just like for the arrow pultruted sections used to make ribs of your open wing,

 

I like your philosophy:

 

"Weighting thoroughly the marginal efficiency of the extra complexity"

 

My best wishes for your trip in UK

 

Cheers Everybody

 

W

Steve is the real expert here. I was just posting a couple of links.

Steve, I hope that your work on the Aethon Wing and Wing #3 are going well. I am trying to get time off from work to attend the ICCCC. If I do I would be happy to be a beach hand. Wish you the best.

 

TTS

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Thanks for the description Steve. Interesting trade offs.

 

You are amongst the best at reminding most of us how much we don't know.

 

Pls keep it up. I'm trying to get out from under a rock here...

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If you need lighter than 64g/m^2 (lightest Textreme currently available) and don't want to deal with the TPT pre-preg, this is very much the same as TPT just held together with a light binder for use in room temperature wet layups:

http://f3j.in.ua/en/spread-Tow-Carbon.html

 

I prefer the Carboline over the Textreme in specific applications, examples include wing d-box structures where I can save 30% weight over the Textreme with no loss in stiffness.

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Aerial photography is good, but helicopters are not.

Don't bring a 1000 hp fan to our party.

SHC

 

LOL, at the F-18 demo at the ACWS in Newport, we were almost knocked over on a jibe because of the wash of a low flying chopper shooting video of the F18 fleet!

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NOTICE OF RACE

 

the NOR and C class rules for Septembers ICCCC are available through Restronguet Sailing Club http://www.restronguetsc.org/index.php/events/88-c-class-cat-championship

 

There is also a link and an upload of 2010 pictures as well as updates from Hydros and other teams on the event Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/ICCCC.2013. Click LIKE to stay in touch

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I hear the Canucks have a plan to sail nekkid. Saves weight don't you know. Perhaps the French may be distracted ("We are French so it is not gay")

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I hear the Canucks have a plan to sail nekkid. Saves weight don't you know. Perhaps the French may be distracted ("We are French so it is not gay")

True. Mags and Fredo have a special training regiment to ensure there will be no shrinkage at the event.

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Well, as of tomorrow we are four months from the first races of the ICCCC. Can't wait for it to get here. But while we are waiting for it to arrive, how many teams have committed to the event to date? I see Tony finally has and am sure that Steve and Fred have as have the Swiss, but what about the other teams, French, Italian and other? Thanks, TTS

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French teams:

Mich' Desj' / Mer Forte / Mer Agitée = definitely out for this year.

 

Challenge France always training aboard Patient Lady VI who have a refit last winter.

 

Cammas / Groupama is training on Alpha and the F18 Flying Phantom (foils cat). A new C is planned. We think that the construction is in progress. No information leaks out.

 

Swiss work hard! Nacra F20 is foiling and first C cat is nearly ready to "plouf"!

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Well look what the Swiss trotted out, very nice indeed.

 

post-1634-0-40072700-1370923892_thumb.jpg

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Any more photos (maybe more side on to the wing)? Doesn't seem to be much twist in that wing.

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Any more photos (maybe more side on to the wing)? Doesn't seem to be much twist in that wing.

They clearly can twist it judging by these photos..

 

post-1634-0-55655100-1370964842_thumb.jpg

 

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Porn

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Photo credit Amory Ross

 

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I know it is kind of out there, but consider the following:

 

The French seem to be big time into sailing, but have previously not been a major force in either the C Class or into AC sailing.

 

Now that C Class can be viewed as a lower cost path into where the AC may end up (Slightly smaller but with 2 hulls and up on foils is my bet), it is interesting to see probably as many or more French teams putting a real effort into C Class than any other single country. I even seem some potential for French & Swiss working together to beat out the established crowd. Given French & Swiss experience in both the world of fast multis and in foiling, us English speaking types may find "those guys" getting real good and/or very innovative real fast.

 

I can't wait to see the fun on the water begin.

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i think Cammas with his inhouse engineering team including Fischer + Muyl and Verdier (involved in ETNZ foiling AC72) + the training platforms (alpha for the wing + flying phantom for the foils) I think they should be considered as a serious contender.

 

Remember Groupama pull out from the big budget for Volvo and were not ready for the AC but still pay a significant engineering team (close to 10 people)

 

I think the contruction of their cat is progressing somewhere. Cammas will be on the "tour de France a la voile" this summer on M34 so we could expect the cat to be delivered after that sometime in august.

 

The hydro team is really interesting and their first boat look slick, with the first C class hull with reverse bows.

 

So how many new boats in newport ?

hydros (2)

Groupama (1)

Canaan (1)

Italia (1)

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Portuguese C-Class Challenge / Team Cascais : 1 new boat

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It's Falmouth UK, not Newport ;)

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Canaan and Fill Your Hands, the other Canadian boat

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Chaps (and chapesses)

 

The list is

 

UK (Invictus) 1 boat

USA (Steve) 2 boats

Canada (Fred) 2 boats

Switzerland (Hydros) 2 boats

France (Franck Cammas) 2 boats

France (Ben Muyl) 1 boat

Portugal (Antonio Reis) 1 boat

Italy (Roberto Grippi) 2-3 boats

 

That makes 13-14 boats

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But not all new, from the "old" list there are Cogito, PL6, Invictus, Alpha and (its not right to call her "old" but) Canaan

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We just put a new mainsheet on Canaan, she's a totally different boat now, practically new.

 

B

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Who is sailing?

We have been out a few times with "mixed" results.

Went very fast Saturday and then had a line chafe break flap episode on Sunday.

SHC

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Who is sailing?

We have been out a few times with "mixed" results.

Went very fast Saturday and then had a line chafe break flap episode on Sunday.

SHC

We were sailing on Saturday in Canaan, Rob will get a flogging for three failed lashings in a day, luckily they were not super critical, just some wounded pride.

 

Today we try something new and improved, hopefully it's improved and not just new.

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How hung over to you have to be to fuck up three lashings?

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Just to let everyone know; the event website is now live at www.i-cccc.com

 

Thanks to Ken Docherty at Inspire Marine for building the site, and to the "patient lady", Claire for much of the content.

 

Any competitors that we have missed - please come forward (I think we have everyone) - and any comments, about the history, the event or whatever - get in touch!

 

We will also keep you update via the event facebook page www.facebook.com/icccc.2013

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Just to let everyone know; the event website is now live at www.i-cccc.com

 

Thanks to Ken Docherty at Inspire Marine for building the site, and to the "patient lady", Claire for much of the content.

I went on the site a couple days ago. Great looking site, some nice info about the different competitors.

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Efficient !

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That sounds great if it only blows 6 knots at Falmouth. I wonder how fast they will be in "real" conditions. Should be very interesting to see.

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Foggy weekend

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cool: one upwind daggerboard and one (curved) for downwind, correct? what about the additional weight?

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cool: one upwind daggerboard and one (curved) for downwind, correct? what about the additional weight?

We just add more power

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That's the new platform, "Fill your Hands"? It looks great from the shots. Do you use both boards at the same time? I do not have a picture of Canaan to compare to but does this have more rocker? Thanks, TTS

Foggy weekend

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attachicon.gifFYH-101.jpg

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