Sailbydate

Coolboats to admire

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2 hours ago, kdh said:

These new designs perform better, if "perform" means "sail faster." An issue for me is getting one side of the big modern asses out of the water while pointing--I don't like cruising on my ear. We could quibble about the sea-motion associated with heavy or light but that's it for me.

I quite like a decent bit of heel when beating.  Ever since I was a kid, it has been part of the fun.

I haven't sailed on a catamaran, but I think that going upwind completely flat would do my head in.

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I like fast and flat. It has to be pretty flat to go fast in a boat, since "fast" to me starts at 60 knots.

As for "fast" sailboats, I still like fast and flat but speeds above about ten knots do take their toll. It's noisy and bouncy and sometimes wet and the wind blows your chips all around. Of course, just because your cruising sailboat can go 20 knots doesn't mean you have to go that fast, just means it's an option.

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54 minutes ago, dogballs Tom said:

As for "fast" sailboats, I still like fast and flat but speeds above about ten knots do take their toll. It's noisy and bouncy and sometimes wet and the wind blows your chips all around. Of course, just because your cruising sailboat can go 20 knots doesn't mean you have to go that fast, just means it's an option.

Tom, there's a word of difference between 15 knots in a 25-foot sportboat weighing maybe tons, and 15 knots in a 73-footer weighing 28 tons.

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10 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

Tom, there's a word of difference between 15 knots in a 25-foot sportboat weighing maybe tons, and 15 knots in a 73-footer weighing 28 tons.

My experience doesn't extend to anything like that but I have been beaten to shit by a 40' sportsfishing boat. The experience wasn't all that different from being beaten to shit in a 20 footer. And we weren't going fast, only 22 knots or so.

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23 minutes ago, dogballs Tom said:

My experience doesn't extend to anything like that but I have been beaten to shit by a 40' sportsfishing boat. The experience wasn't all that different from being beaten to shit in a 20 footer. And we weren't going fast, only 22 knots or so.

In my experience, powerboats are a whole different game when it comes to ride, for 2 reasons:

  1. Sailboats with keels achieve that sort speed only when going downwind, whereas a powerboat can do such speeds upwind, against the waves. V bouncy.
  2. Sailboats are stabilised by the sails, which produces a much more steady motion

This isn't just theoretical.  In my early-80s days of J/24 cruising, we did several passages on a broad reach in force 5/6, where with only white sails we held a steady average of ~10 knots. The ride was way more comfortable than doing 6 knots in a  bigger displacement boat, wallowing around as the waves pass underneath.  If you look at the video below of Toroa, starting at 43 seconds, you see her blasting downwind at  great speed, with a v steady motion.  There's plenty of similar footage of Pogos on passage

 

 

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I looked at that video and at the screen capture showing the wind 90 degrees from the heading.

Umm... Is that really where the boom is when the actual wind is on the beam and the apparent therefore well above the beam?

You're right that the powerboat beat me up by charging into waves at that speed.

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Not that we ever went 20 knots, but on our old Hinckley 42, we sailed to and from Bermuda several times, and new crew were always astounded by how quiet and calm things seemed below when it was blowing 25-30 or more. You wake up to take your watch and think the wind has died, when you get on deck you realize quite the opposite. 

We were running along the coast of Nova Scotia on a friends 62' motorboat last summer, doing 21 kts, the flower vases on the counters in the salon and staterooms never moved. Doug Zurn design, built by Lyman-Morse, twin 1000 hp caterpillars, amazing boat. Loved everything about it, except the fuel bill.

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14 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

Tom, there's a word of difference between 15 knots in a 25-foot sportboat weighing maybe tons, and 15 knots in a 73-footer weighing 28 tons.

Or a 50 ton IOR 80 footer doing 17.   It feels and sounds like the rig is going to come right out of the boat.   The loads are... incredible.

- Stumbling

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8 minutes ago, stumblingthunder said:

Or a 50 ton IOR 80 footer doing 17.   It feels and sounds like the rig is going to come right out of the boat.   The loads are... incredible terrifying and deadly.

- Stumbling

FIFY

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5 hours ago, dogballs Tom said:
15 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

Tom, there's a word of difference between 15 knots in a 25-foot sportboat weighing maybe tons, and 15 knots in a 73-footer weighing 28 tons.

My experience doesn't extend to anything like that but I have been beaten to shit by a 40' sportsfishing boat. The experience wasn't all that different from being beaten to shit in a 20 footer. And we weren't going fast, only 22 knots or so.

800px-PHM-1.jpg

You just need the appropriate technology

FB- Doug

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3 hours ago, dogballs Tom said:

I looked at that video and at the screen capture showing the wind 90 degrees from the heading.

Umm... Is that really where the boom is when the actual wind is on the beam and the apparent therefore well above the beam?

Tom, once you break out of displacement mode, the difference between true and apparent wind angles starts to get big.  Esp when you are doing the sort of speeds Toroa is capable of.

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Just now, SloopJonB said:

FIFY

I have a propensity to downplay it or the wife would never let our kids on a sailboat, should she ever read my comments.

I still have all my fingers and no major scars from my IOR ocean racing days. (Just a number of small meat hook scars on my hands)   Youthful ignorance goes a long way to make it viewed as an adventure!   Having wire to line splices explosively let go in front of you (while trimming said guy) and then reset the spinnaker with a new guy and do it again 10 minutes later.   "Maybe we need to downshift to the smaller heavy spinnaker." As opposed to, that could have caught me and cut me deep or worse.

- Stumbling

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Just now, TwoLegged said:

Tom, once you break out of displacement mode, the difference between true and apparent wind angles starts to get big.  Esp when you are doing the sort of speeds Toroa is capable of.

I saw a vivid demonstration of that when watching the start of the Southern Straits race a couple of years ago. It was an off wind start and there was a big high performance cat mixed in with big mono's like TP52's. The cat was making so much apparent wind that it was beating and flying a hull alongside the monos that were on a deep spinnaker reach.

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8 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

800px-PHM-1.jpg

You just need the appropriate technology

FB- Doug

I miss seeing them go out on patrol in Key West.   Coming in, they would be cranking along on the foils, then when they slow down, the foils would just stall and they would splash down with spray into displacement mode.

 

- Stumbling

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5 minutes ago, stumblingthunder said:

I miss seeing them go out on patrol in Key West.   Coming in, they would be cranking along on the foils, then when they slow down, the foils would just stall and they would splash down with spray into displacement mode.

...   ...    ...

Yeah but the Navy eventually thought of them as expensive and maintenance-intensive. Aviation does the job better...... I respectfully disagree but I also don't have to pore over budget/availability numbers.

48 knots?  shuck's the fun meter is just starting to register at only 48! Fuck, carriers can go 48!    ooops I maybe shouldn't have said that

FB- Doug

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10 minutes ago, Kris Cringle said:

Columbia 50. Still pretty after 50 years. 

44807997525_3438be6daf_o.jpg

31850458968_395f1278e0_o.jpg

I'd pay good money to see the next frame from the lower photo, when they find they forgot to undo the stern line . . .

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Quote

I'd pay good money to see the next frame from the lower photo, when they find they forgot to undo the stern line . . 

 

Power cord for the electric auxiliary.

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I'm flying to RI this week to take a celestial course from one of the best sailor, navigator, and overall good guys ever who happens to own a Columbia 50, and just loves it. He's a stalwart of the celestial class in the Marion-Bermuda Race. 

My celestial navigator from the last race can't commit to this one so, just in case, I want to get up to speed. Haven't decided if I'm even doing the race yet (minor conflict with my daughter's wedding), but it never hurts to give the brain a quick wire brush treatment to get rid of some of the crap and dirt that accumulates in the surface fissures. Squeeze squeeze squeeze, scrub scrub scrub!

Oh, yeah, the C-50. Great boats. Big, strong, seaworthy, and uber comfy motion at sea. 

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9 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

Tom, once you break out of displacement mode, the difference between true and apparent wind angles starts to get big.  Esp when you are doing the sort of speeds Toroa is capable of.

Kind of my point.

On 11/1/2018 at 8:34 PM, ProaSailor said:

Her majesty is in a realm far removed from common sailing experience - by design.

TOROA_sailing_numbers.png.049f35b8ee5f56e3388f2bbebf7328ff.png

90 degrees between wind direction and heading and we agree that the angle between heading and apparent wind would be smaller. So WTF is the boom doing way out there?

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The C-50 has been one of my favourites since they were still being built. :o

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58 minutes ago, dogballs Tom said:

90 degrees between wind direction and heading and we agree that the angle between heading and apparent wind would be smaller. So WTF is the boom doing way out there?

Maybe spilling a bit of wind to keep everything comfy?

Or maybe the numbers are inaccurate

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1 hour ago, Cruisin Loser said:

Haven't decided if I'm even doing the race yet (minor conflict with my daughter's wedding),

Priorities, man!

Tell daughter to put on her oilies and be ready at the dock. The wedding can be done on the dock in 5 minutes before cast-off — Do you? Yes. Do you? Yes. Done — and the happy couple can homeymoon in Bermuda.

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2 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

Priorities, man!

Tell daughter to put on her oilies and be ready at the dock. The wedding can be done on the dock in 5 minutes before cast-off — Do you? Yes. Do you? Yes. Done — and the happy couple can homeymoon in Bermuda.

Drag them on board and you can marry them under way. That would be an epic kidnap, but none of your ladies would ever talk to you again. 

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I’m not sure about that. 

Just wondering about the future groom’s sailing acumen...

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14 hours ago, dogballs Tom said:
23 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

Tom, once you break out of displacement mode, the difference between true and apparent wind angles starts to get big.  Esp when you are doing the sort of speeds Toroa is capable of.

Kind of my point.

On 11/1/2018 at 5:34 PM, ProaSailor said:

Her majesty is in a realm far removed from common sailing experience - by design.

TOROA_sailing_numbers.png.049f35b8ee5f56e3388f2bbebf7328ff.png

90 degrees between wind direction and heading and we agree that the angle between heading and apparent wind would be smaller. So WTF is the boom doing way out there?

I wouldn't assume any bullshit from these guys.  They are not close hauled so easing the main is quite reasonable.
Apparent Wind Angle (AWA) will be 51.3 degrees when TWS = 25 knots and boat speed = 20 knots: https://www.hydesailsdirect.com/Articles.asp?ID=278

Computations

VMG to wind 0
True Wind Angle 90 °
Apparent Wind Angle 51.3 °
True Wind Speed 25
Apparent Wind Speed 32
Boat Speed 20
Boat speed as % of true wind speed  80
VMG as % of true wind speed 0

masthead_pic.png.9e130c11e80a89ce40c90ed2d827f7ab.png

Confirmed here: https://www.madinstro.net/sundry/navigation/windreal.html

P.S. AWA = 59 degrees when TWS = 30 knots and boat speed = 18 knots:

Computations

VMG to wind 0
True Wind Angle 90 °
Apparent Wind Angle 59 °
True Wind Speed 30
Apparent Wind Speed 35
Boat Speed 18
Boat speed as % of true wind speed  60
VMG as % of true wind speed 0

masthead_pic2.png.447a3b27bcf23d64938b983e341505fe.png

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4 hours ago, Sail4beer said:

I’m not sure about that. 

Just wondering about the future groom’s sailing acumen...

Beer, @Cruisin Loser is Texan.  So he will have guns to sort this out.

If his daughter is marrying a non-sailor, the guns need to be used.

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I don’t think you can pistol whip a son-in-law into shape as a crew too soon. His wife may have to teach him how to sail first!

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20 minutes ago, Sail4beer said:

I don’t think you can pistol whip a son-in-law into shape as a crew too soon. His wife may have to teach him how to sail first!

But but but ... you seem to contemplating the prospect of daughter actually marrying a man who is not already a skilled sailor.

This carries an unacceptable risk that he might lack the necessary aptitudes and willpower ... and the poor woman would be hitched to a man who would never know how to sail.  Surely you wouldn't encourage @Cruisin Loser to risk his daughter stumbling into a marriage where sailing was anything other than a shared passion and a mutual skill?

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On 11/3/2018 at 2:38 AM, TwoLegged said:

I doubt it.  Carriers are powerful offensive weapon, but they are also very vulnerable.  That's why they sail in a carrier battle group, with plentiful escorts.  They are the big hitters in a team, but useless alone.

A contemporary carrier battle group with contemporary planes would have course be a powerful weapon against WWII-era planes and ships.  But the same goes for most military technologies with a 75-year gap between them.

Against a foe with similar technology, it's hard to guess. One notable aspect of WWII was how  new technologies came and went.  U-boats were one of the critical weapons of the first few years of WWII, but well-neutralised by the end.   Battleships rapidly turned out to have had their day.  Strategic aerial bombing turned out to be much harder than envisaged.  The most powerful mechanised army yet seen could be defeated by weather and tenacity.

Since WWII, there have not been any significant conflicts in which both sides have had big quantities of major contemporary weapons.  Most of them have been asymmetric wars, or smaller scale clashes between countries which were users of weapons rather than makers of them.  Most brought surprise: American airpower did not prevail in Vietnam, Israel's use of drones and related technologies caused shock by rapidly taking out the relatively-advanced Syrian air force in 1982; and in 2003 Rumsfeld discovered that despite sophisticated weaponry and comms, successful military occupation still requires a lot of boots on them ground.

There hasn't been a full-on-clash of carrier battle groups since WWII.  Pitched against each other 75 years later they might even turn out to be as useless as battleships in WWII, or as Syria's sophisticated air defences in 1982.

 

Couple of comments in response:

1. The air campaign over N. Vietnam was severely hampered by civilian interference at the executive level (McNamara, Bundy et al). Examples being the proscription against bombing NVAF airfields and the restriction against mining the entrances of the major NV seaport at Haiphong. Once the dogs were let off leash in Linebacker I and II, the combined air effort very quickly ended a major NV Army buildup on the DMZ that was a prelude to an invasion and brought the NV negotiators running to the table in Paris demanding a cease fire. IOW, it could have been a similar outcome to the Iraqi experience if played differently. 

2. Without precision munitions I doubt the current US naval air force could do to enemy shipping what those aviators in WW II accomplished. I personally took part in a dress rehearsal exercise for overseas deployment in which our entire air wing tried to bomb a stationary shipwreck off San Clemente Island in California and I think we recorded two or three hits. Those old guys in SBDs, TBFs and Helldivers sure put us to shame. (If you're wondering, I didn't even come close.)

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On 11/3/2018 at 4:15 PM, TwoLegged said:

I quite like a decent bit of heel when beating.  Ever since I was a kid, it has been part of the fun.

I haven't sailed on a catamaran, but I think that going upwind completely flat would do my head in.

+ 1000 to  this. Something about a puff heeling the monohull as it starts to accelerate is part of the fun, plus being closer to the water rushing by. A trimaran is pretty close in this regard though. 

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1 hour ago, kinardly said:
On 11/3/2018 at 5:38 AM, TwoLegged said:

I doubt it.  Carriers are powerful offensive weapon, but they are also very vulnerable.  That's why they sail in a carrier battle group, with plentiful escorts.  They are the big hitters in a team, but useless alone.

A contemporary carrier battle group with contemporary planes would have course be a powerful weapon against WWII-era planes and ships.  But the same goes for most military technologies with a 75-year gap between them.

Against a foe with similar technology, it's hard to guess. One notable aspect of WWII was how  new technologies came and went.  U-boats were one of the critical weapons of the first few years of WWII, but well-neutralised by the end.   Battleships rapidly turned out to have had their day.  Strategic aerial bombing turned out to be much harder than envisaged.  The most powerful mechanised army yet seen could be defeated by weather and tenacity.

Since WWII, there have not been any significant conflicts in which both sides have had big quantities of major contemporary weapons.  Most of them have been asymmetric wars, or smaller scale clashes between countries which were users of weapons rather than makers of them.  Most brought surprise: American airpower did not prevail in Vietnam, Israel's use of drones and related technologies caused shock by rapidly taking out the relatively-advanced Syrian air force in 1982; and in 2003 Rumsfeld discovered that despite sophisticated weaponry and comms, successful military occupation still requires a lot of boots on them ground.

There hasn't been a full-on-clash of carrier battle groups since WWII.  Pitched against each other 75 years later they might even turn out to be as useless as battleships in WWII, or as Syria's sophisticated air defences in 1982.

 

Couple of comments in response:

1. The air campaign over N. Vietnam was severely hampered by civilian interference at the executive level (McNamara, Bundy et al). Examples being the proscription against bombing NVAF airfields and the restriction against mining the entrances of the major NV seaport at Haiphong. Once the dogs were let off leash in Linebacker I and II, the combined air effort very quickly ended a major NV Army buildup on the DMZ that was a prelude to an invasion and brought the NV negotiators running to the table in Paris demanding a cease fire. IOW, it could have been a similar outcome to the Iraqi experience if played differently. 

2. Without precision munitions I doubt the current US naval air force could do to enemy shipping what those aviators in WW II accomplished. I personally took part in a dress rehearsal exercise for overseas deployment in which our entire air wing tried to bomb a stationary shipwreck off San Clemente Island in California and I think we recorded two or three hits. Those old guys in SBDs, TBFs and Helldivers sure put us to shame. (If you're wondering, I didn't even come close.)

 

heh heh you all didn't get as much practice as those old-timers did, plus you're zooming along a LOT faster.

FWIW I disagree with 2L's opening statement that "carriers are very vulnerable." They are a high-reward target, yes. If the US loses a carrier, it loses a HUGE amount of ability to project power globally. OTOH they are defended with pretty much everything in the inventory from spy-sats to AWACs to helo anti-sub screens to PHALANX and then SEALs and dolphins (from what I've hear on the grapevine, you do NOT want to get intercepted by a "playful" military dolphin..... you'd rather just be drowned outright).

If an enemy force can take out a carrier, it's highly likely they've won that round. But it's more likely that they will lose a lot of their own assets trying, and fail. At least, in any current military face-off we envision. Most first-world national air forces and naval forces combined could not take on a single carrier..... which says something about US military spending in proportion to what we probably should be doing.......... and none (at the moment) could take on two.

I always laugh when I see the news about the Russian or Chinese developing carriers. Yeah they're where we were in about 1928. They could catch up fast if they really try hard though.

aircraft-carrier-tips-as-it-makes-sharp-

An oldy but a goody

FB- Doug

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3 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

But but but ... you seem to contemplating the prospect of daughter actually marrying a man who is not already a skilled sailor.

This carries an unacceptable risk that he might lack the necessary aptitudes and willpower ... and the poor woman would be hitched to a man who would never know how to sail.  Surely you wouldn't encourage @Cruisin Loser to risk his daughter stumbling into a marriage where sailing was anything other than a shared passion and a mutual skill?

He's a nice young man, he loves my daughter, I love him for that.

It takes someone special to take on a girl who's had severe rheumatoid arthritis her whole life, with no end in sight. An odd thing, she's had health issues her whole life, but is about as totally immune to seasickness as anyone I've ever seen. She's also whip smart and a talented artist.

My biological clock is ticking and I want Grandkids NOW GODDAMNIT!!! Whatever his flaws, I'm not waiting for her to find someone incrementally better. He took the "shallow unmarked grave" talk to heart and didn't blink at the pre-nup.

The grandkids will be skiers, fly fishers, canoeists, shooters (especially the girls, my daughter has had a concealed carry license for many years), musicians and sailors. Oh, yes, they will sail.

Would a great sailor have been ideal? Sure, but that's not the way it turned out. I'm OK with it. As I said, he loves her and knows what he's getting himself into.

 

 

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1 minute ago, Cruisin Loser said:

He's a nice young man, he loves my daughter, I love him for that.

It takes someone special to take on a girl who's had severe rheumatoid arthritis her whole life, with no end in sight. An odd thing, she's had health issues her whole life, but is about as totally immune to seasickness as anyone I've ever seen. She's also whip smart and a talented artist.

My biological clock is ticking and I want Grandkids NOW GODDAMNIT!!! Whatever his flaws, I'm not waiting for her to find someone incrementally better. He took the "shallow unmarked grave" talk to heart and didn't blink at the pre-nup.

The grandkids will be skiers, fly fishers, canoeists, shooters (especially the girls, my daughter has had a concealed carry license for many years), musicians and sailors. Oh, yes, they will sail.

Would a great sailor have been ideal? Sure, but that's not the way it turned out. I'm OK with it. As I said, he loves her and knows what he's getting himself into.

 

 

Sorry about the rheumatoid arthritis. Horrible. Interesting about the concealed carry. Do you live somewhere dangerous?

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4 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

aircraft-carrier-tips-as-it-makes-sharp-

An oldy but a goody

FB- Doug

 

I assume all the aircraft slid over the side?

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33 minutes ago, MauiPunter said:

I assume all the aircraft slid over the side?

Indeed.  And I dunno whether the front fell off, but there's a big hole in the back

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3 minutes ago, TwoLegged said:

Indeed.  And I dunno whether the front fell off, but there's a big hole in the back

That's the Margarita Deck.

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4 hours ago, Cruisin Loser said:

He's a nice young man, he loves my daughter, I love him for that.

It takes someone special to take on a girl who's had severe rheumatoid arthritis her whole life, with no end in sight. An odd thing, she's had health issues her whole life, but is about as totally immune to seasickness as anyone I've ever seen. She's also whip smart and a talented artist.

My biological clock is ticking and I want Grandkids NOW GODDAMNIT!!! Whatever his flaws, I'm not waiting for her to find someone incrementally better. He took the "shallow unmarked grave" talk to heart and didn't blink at the pre-nup.

The grandkids will be skiers, fly fishers, canoeists, shooters (especially the girls, my daughter has had a concealed carry license for many years), musicians and sailors. Oh, yes, they will sail.

Would a great sailor have been ideal? Sure, but that's not the way it turned out. I'm OK with it. As I said, he loves her and knows what he's getting himself into.

 

 

May they be fruitful and multiply. 

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6 minutes ago, Bull City said:

May they be fruitful and multiply. 

Thank you. 

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15 hours ago, Cruisin Loser said:

My biological clock is ticking and I want Grandkids NOW GODDAMNIT!!! Whatever his flaws, I'm not waiting for her to find someone incrementally better. He took the "shallow unmarked grave" talk to heart and didn't blink at the pre-nup. 

 

Grandkids are great. Not sailing, but a sailboat, well a Flying Scot, in the picture.

 

20180726145412.JPG

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On ‎11‎/‎4‎/‎2018 at 5:57 PM, Kris Cringle said:

Columbia 50. Still pretty after 50 years. 

44807997525_3438be6daf_o.jpg

31850458968_395f1278e0_o.jpg

Did you happen to get a name??  Pretty boat.

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2 hours ago, No Bargers said:

Grandkids are great.

20180726145412.JPG

If I'd known being a grandparent was this much fun I would have done it first. :D

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1 hour ago, SV Siren said:

Did you happen to get a name??  Pretty boat.

The Lumbo requires more maintenance than I want to do these days.  I like what I see of the daysailer in the foreground.  Grandma and Grandpa out for a sail on a sunny day.  Anyone know what it is?

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3 hours ago, SV Siren said:

Did you happen to get a name??  Pretty boat.

I did not but the boat is moored nearby (off North Haven Island village, Penobscot Bay). Nice condition. 

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17 hours ago, Ishmael said:

That's the Margarita Deck.

Actually, it's called the spud locker and you don't want to land there but it's happened. RIP.

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2 hours ago, Hawaiidart said:

The Lumbo requires more maintenance than I want to do these days.  I like what I see of the daysailer in the foreground.  Grandma and Grandpa out for a sail on a sunny day.  Anyone know what it is?

Locally where several race, this class is called the Foxeye. Recognizable as the H 12 1/2 when it has a gaff rig, the marconi rigged boats are referred to as Bullseyes in some areas, and the Foxeye here. It's a 1914 Nathaniel Herreshoff design. 

 

45754121291_16751d8b20_o.jpg

http://northhavencasino.org/fleet.php?5

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16 minutes ago, Hawaiidart said:

I'll take one, please.  Can someone start a GoFundMe account for me?

5aa22f99-4faf-4245-9df9-0e433d31f433.png

 

Four Herreshoff 12½'s For Sale!

 

The Herreshoff Marine Museum has four vintage H12s for sale.

 

From time to time, generous owners donate their small yachts to us for use in our summer and after-school Sailing & Seamanship Programs. The past couple of years have seen a shift from exclusively vintage H12s to a mix of these and fiberglass boats which require less maintenance and are a bit more durable.

 

While we still use some vintage H12s in our programs, we have more than we can use or maintain. These boats are not part of the HMM collection, so we are offering four of them for sale. They range from ready-to-race to ready-to-restore.

 

Make one of these fine examples of HMCo. craftsmanship yours today.

 

 

S.gif

 

SWALLOW

(HMCo. #1502 - 1939)

Very rare Marconi H12 with builder’s plate. She was built in 1939 for Mr. Arthur C. Dorrance of Fisher's Island, and she is in need of restoration.

 

SWALLOW is a very unique and rare boat. She is one of only 5 “Improved Model” boats built for customers in the Fishers Island fleet, of which only 3 are known to remain. The boats have a wider side deck and a raised afterdeck. 

 

This from the Herreshoff Catalogue Raisonne:

 

“A. Sidney DeW. Herreshoff incorporated a number of new features into the time honored 12 1/2 footer design at his father, N.G. Herreshoff’s, earlier suggestion. The new features included a raised afterdeck with the tiller coming over rather than through the transom, coamings moved inboard slightly, copper flotation tanks under the scats which eliminated the need for watertight bulkheads fore and aft, and a special, hollow spruce spar. Many of these features were designed to make this small boat safer for the youngsters that would be sailing them. This model would be less apt to swamp and sink in rough waters as the earlier boats occasionally did.”

 

SWALLOW is offered at $8,000

94e14ec2-70f5-4862-84e3-7a10d6d59e05.jpg

Swallow comes with:

·     Original spars

·     Sail covers

·     Sails

 

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CANOUAN

(HMCo. ca. 1938 - 1940)

A gaff-rigged H12 built by the Herreshoff Manufacturing Company sometime between 1938 and 1940.

 

CANOUAN comes with:

·     Original spars

·     Harding main, jib & spin

·     Teak cockpit grate

·     Cradle

ef121b78-0100-4e1f-867e-4f264e3ad26f.jpg

 

She was donated to the Herreshoff Marine Museum in 2014 by her owner from the Marion fleet, and at that time, she was surveyed and found to be in very good condition. She was valued at $22,500.

 

Since then, she has been used sparingly in the Herreshoff Seamanship Program. She was retired from the program in 2016 because she needs work. She is in fair condition and likely needs attention to her garboards, planking and possibly some floors. Her fittings are a mix of original HMCo. bronze and Reineck bronze.

 

A more detailed condition report will be available soon. 

 

CANOUAN is offered at $10,000.

 

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NINA

(HMCo. #986 - 1925)

NINA is one of a series of Buzzards Bay gaff-rigged 12s which were built over the winter of 1925-26. She was born with the interesting name MUMMY CHUG and built for Ms. Ruth Lionberger.

 

NINA comes with:

·     Original builder’s plate

·     Original spars

·     Cradle

bc16c724-4119-4de4-82ea-2a20999f5857.jpg

 

She was donated to the Herreshoff Marine Museum in 2014 by her owner from the Marion fleet, and at that time, she was appraised and found to be in fair condition. She was valued at $13,500. At that time, NINA was in need of a new transom which she has since been fitted with. She has not been used since.

 

She is in fair condition and likely needs attention to her garboards, planking and possibly some floors. A more detailed condition report will be available soon. 

 

NINA is offered at $12,000.

 

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HURRAH

(HMCo. ca. 1930)

Gaff-rigged H12 fully restored by IYRS in 2009.

 

HURRAH comes with:

·     Original spars

·     Sail covers

·     Sails – Tanbark ca. 2012

·     Cradle

 

HURRAH has been sailed each summer since acquired by the Herreshoff Marine Museum. She is in very good condition and ready to win races!

 

HURRAH is offered at $27,500

8de73808-b2cd-4a17-8ee0-1732b25e6533.jpg

 

S.gif

 

 

Herreshoff Marine Museum | (401)253-5000 | info@herreshoff.org | herreshoff.org

 

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1 hour ago, Kris Cringle said:

Locally where several race, this class is called the Foxeye. Recognizable as the H 12 1/2 when it has a gaff rig, the marconi rigged boats are referred to as Bullseyes in some areas, and the Foxeye here. It's a 1914 Nathaniel Herreshoff design. 

 

45754121291_16751d8b20_o.jpg

http://northhavencasino.org/fleet.php?5

Bullseyes were the fiberglass version...  Had an aluminum mast and marconi rig.

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3 hours ago, Cruisin Loser said:

HURRAH is offered at $27,500 

Yipes, that's Admirable as heck!

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18 hours ago, Cruisin Loser said:

5aa22f99-4faf-4245-9df9-0e433d31f433.png

 

Four Herreshoff 12½'s For Sale!

 

The Herreshoff Marine Museum has four vintage H12s for sale.

 

From time to time, generous owners donate their small yachts to us for use in our summer and after-school Sailing & Seamanship Programs. The past couple of years have seen a shift from exclusively vintage H12s to a mix of these and fiberglass boats which require less maintenance and are a bit more durable.

 

While we still use some vintage H12s in our programs, we have more than we can use or maintain. These boats are not part of the HMM collection, so we are offering four of them for sale. They range from ready-to-race to ready-to-restore.

 

Make one of these fine examples of HMCo. craftsmanship yours today.

 

 

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SWALLOW

(HMCo. #1502 - 1939)

Very rare Marconi H12 with builder’s plate. She was built in 1939 for Mr. Arthur C. Dorrance of Fisher's Island, and she is in need of restoration.

 

SWALLOW is a very unique and rare boat. She is one of only 5 “Improved Model” boats built for customers in the Fishers Island fleet, of which only 3 are known to remain. The boats have a wider side deck and a raised afterdeck. 

 

This from the Herreshoff Catalogue Raisonne:

 

“A. Sidney DeW. Herreshoff incorporated a number of new features into the time honored 12 1/2 footer design at his father, N.G. Herreshoff’s, earlier suggestion. The new features included a raised afterdeck with the tiller coming over rather than through the transom, coamings moved inboard slightly, copper flotation tanks under the scats which eliminated the need for watertight bulkheads fore and aft, and a special, hollow spruce spar. Many of these features were designed to make this small boat safer for the youngsters that would be sailing them. This model would be less apt to swamp and sink in rough waters as the earlier boats occasionally did.”

 

SWALLOW is offered at $8,000

94e14ec2-70f5-4862-84e3-7a10d6d59e05.jpg

Swallow comes with:

·     Original spars

·     Sail covers

·     Sails

 

S.gif

 

CANOUAN

(HMCo. ca. 1938 - 1940)

A gaff-rigged H12 built by the Herreshoff Manufacturing Company sometime between 1938 and 1940.

 

CANOUAN comes with:

·     Original spars

·     Harding main, jib & spin

·     Teak cockpit grate

·     Cradle

ef121b78-0100-4e1f-867e-4f264e3ad26f.jpg

 

She was donated to the Herreshoff Marine Museum in 2014 by her owner from the Marion fleet, and at that time, she was surveyed and found to be in very good condition. She was valued at $22,500.

 

Since then, she has been used sparingly in the Herreshoff Seamanship Program. She was retired from the program in 2016 because she needs work. She is in fair condition and likely needs attention to her garboards, planking and possibly some floors. Her fittings are a mix of original HMCo. bronze and Reineck bronze.

 

A more detailed condition report will be available soon. 

 

CANOUAN is offered at $10,000.

 

S.gif

 

NINA

(HMCo. #986 - 1925)

NINA is one of a series of Buzzards Bay gaff-rigged 12s which were built over the winter of 1925-26. She was born with the interesting name MUMMY CHUG and built for Ms. Ruth Lionberger.

 

NINA comes with:

·     Original builder’s plate

·     Original spars

·     Cradle

bc16c724-4119-4de4-82ea-2a20999f5857.jpg

 

She was donated to the Herreshoff Marine Museum in 2014 by her owner from the Marion fleet, and at that time, she was appraised and found to be in fair condition. She was valued at $13,500. At that time, NINA was in need of a new transom which she has since been fitted with. She has not been used since.

 

She is in fair condition and likely needs attention to her garboards, planking and possibly some floors. A more detailed condition report will be available soon. 

 

NINA is offered at $12,000.

 

S.gif

 

HURRAH

(HMCo. ca. 1930)

Gaff-rigged H12 fully restored by IYRS in 2009.

 

HURRAH comes with:

·     Original spars

·     Sail covers

·     Sails – Tanbark ca. 2012

·     Cradle

 

HURRAH has been sailed each summer since acquired by the Herreshoff Marine Museum. She is in very good condition and ready to win races!

 

HURRAH is offered at $27,500

8de73808-b2cd-4a17-8ee0-1732b25e6533.jpg

 

S.gif

 

 

Herreshoff Marine Museum | (401)253-5000 | info@herreshoff.org | herreshoff.org

 

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It's an awfully good thing that I don't need another boat, because HURRAH is calling my name. Loudly. We don't even have a local 12 1/2 fleet (though there are a few in the harbor,) but there is something about them - the real, gaff-rigged ones - that is nearly irresistible.

I shouldn't read this thread.

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On 11/6/2018 at 4:29 PM, Veeger said:

Bullseyes were the fiberglass version...  Had an aluminum mast and marconi rig.

Fiberglass 12 1/2s also called, usually derisively, "Doughdishes" after their maker. Also made by Cape Cod Shipbuilding, from molds based on the original Herreshoff jigs and patterns, which they own.

The Forbes family Herreshoff 12 1/2 fleet is the ultimate and some can still be seen in Hadley Harbor. W.C. Forbes bought the first group of 20 in 1914.

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A couple of those boats came from the Marion Fleet, those ladies are serious as hell about their 12-1/2 racing, and the cocktails afterwards.

There's a nice fleet across the bay in Red Brook, but nothing like Marion/BYC.

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4 hours ago, Cruisin Loser said:

A couple of those boats came from the Marion Fleet, those ladies are serious as hell about their 12-1/2 racing, and the cocktails afterwards.

There's a nice fleet across the bay in Red Brook, but nothing like Marion/BYC.

What sort of conditions can they race in? 

I am interested in starting a daysailer class down here for the more relaxed, or age impaired, sailors, and have always thought the 14 footer designed by LFH, which is a 17’ version of the old 12 1/2 would be a nice boat, if we could make them with self draining cockpits...

my other option was to pick up old glass folkboats and refurb them...

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5 hours ago, olaf hart said:

I am interested in starting a daysailer class down here for the more relaxed, or age impaired, sailors

Harbor 20's are filling that role in this area.

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They race on Buzzard's Bay, notorious for afternoon sou'westerlies with steep chop when the tide is going out. Seaworthy little buggers they are.

The guy I got Restive from still has a 12-1/2 for daysailing in front of his home in RI, West Passage  of Narragansett Bay, another place that gets wind. He also keeps a Center Harbor 31 in Blue Hill, Maine, for day sailing when there. 

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1 hour ago, Cruisin Loser said:

They race on Buzzard's Bay, notorious for afternoon sou'westerlies with steep chop when the tide is going out. Seaworthy little buggers they are.

The guy I got Restive from still has a 12-1/2 for daysailing in front of his home in RI, West Passage  of Narragansett Bay, another place that gets wind. He also keeps a Center Harbor 31 in Blue Hill, Maine, for day sailing when there. 

The ladies in Marion used to shun anything made of fiberglass. I wonder if that's changed.

A buddy used to sail his Cape Cod Shipbuilding 12 1/2 from Falmouth to Nantucket and back. Hardy sailer and sailor.

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15 minutes ago, kdh said:

The ladies in Marion used to shun anything made of fiberglass. I wonder if that's changed.

A buddy used to sail his Cape Cod Shipbuilding 12 1/2 from Falmouth to Nantucket and back. Hardy sailer and sailor.

I agree!

Having lived and sailed on the Cape, I can attest that Vineyard Sound can get every bit as nasty as Buzzard's Bay. Nantucket Sound can get even nastier. 

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I am amazed at how easily they sail through the washing machine that is the Cape and sound. 

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1 hour ago, Sail4beer said:

I am amazed at how easily they sail through the washing machine that is the Cape and sound. 

Displacement has it's uses.

And for it's waterline length, it's a sexy, slippery shape. The water loves to feel it go by........

:o

FB- Doug

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5 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

Displacement has it's uses.

And for it's waterline length, it's a sexy, slippery shape. The water loves to feel it go by........

:o

FB- Doug

Beetle Cats and other cat boats were designed to sail in Buzzard's Bay, Vineyard Sound and Nantucket Sound.

Beetle Cat.jpg

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Just now, QBF said:

Beetle Cats and other cat boats were designed to sail in Buzzard's Bay, Vineyard Sound and Nantucket Sound.

Beetle Cat.jpg

Nice color values in that pic..... how do you get the varnish to be a complimentary shade of your dog??

My dad had a 22' catboat for years, here in the NC estuaries & sounds. Perfect environment for it. Shallow draft for all the shallow water, huge sail area for the light wind days, heavy as a brickyard and bashed it's way thru the afternoon chop quite effectively.

The Beetle Cat is a great little boat too

FB- Doug

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43 minutes ago, QBF said:

Beetle Cats and other cat boats were designed to sail in Buzzard's Bay, Vineyard Sound and Nantucket Sound.

Beetle Cat.jpg

One of those was my first sailboat. 

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My parents just downsized to a 12 1/2 from an Alerion 28.  Initially I was skeptical that it would be easier for them, but when I saw the boat yard pack it on to the trailer and bundle it up for Winter I got it. 

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3 hours ago, kdh said:

The ladies in Marion used to shun anything made of fiberglass. I wonder if that's changed.

Not in my observation.  A pretty old school club, but very welcoming. Supposedly, Tabor Boy is doing next years Marion-Bermuda.

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1 hour ago, QBF said:

Beetle Cats and other cat boats were designed to sail in Buzzard's Bay, Vineyard Sound and Nantucket Sound.

Beetle Cat.jpg

Does anyone else see the irony in a dog enjoying a catboat?

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On 11/5/2018 at 4:26 PM, Steam Flyer said:

 

heh heh you all didn't get as much practice as those old-timers did, plus you're zooming along a LOT faster.

FWIW I disagree with 2L's opening statement that "carriers are very vulnerable." They are a high-reward target, yes. If the US loses a carrier, it loses a HUGE amount of ability to project power globally. OTOH they are defended with pretty much everything in the inventory from spy-sats to AWACs to helo anti-sub screens to PHALANX and then SEALs and dolphins (from what I've hear on the grapevine, you do NOT want to get intercepted by a "playful" military dolphin..... you'd rather just be drowned outright).

If an enemy force can take out a carrier, it's highly likely they've won that round. But it's more likely that they will lose a lot of their own assets trying, and fail. At least, in any current military face-off we envision. Most first-world national air forces and naval forces combined could not take on a single carrier..... which says something about US military spending in proportion to what we probably should be doing.......... and none (at the moment) could take on two.

I always laugh when I see the news about the Russian or Chinese developing carriers. Yeah they're where we were in about 1928. They could catch up fast if they really try hard though.

aircraft-carrier-tips-as-it-makes-sharp-

An oldy but a goody

FB- Doug

BTDT on that ship and a couple of others. Lost my favorite coffee cup when I got distracted in one of my spaces and didn’t get back to the office in time for the festivities. 

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6 hours ago, captain_crunch said:

Does anyone else see the irony in a dog enjoying a catboat?

He was chasing it..... and caught it.

FB- Doug

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13 hours ago, Innocent Bystander said:

BTDT on that ship and a couple of others. Lost my favorite coffee cup when I got distracted in one of my spaces and didn’t get back to the office in time for the festivities. 

I was amazed at the size and manpower of the carriers and nuclear submarines when I lived in the Norfolk/Va.Beach area. I went to Old Dominion University and they had a brand new sailing center on the Elizabeth River. I would take a laser or windsurfer and sail on over and check them out. Other times I would drive over to the the NAS Va.Beach and sit at the beginning of the landing strip and watch the A-10’s do their touch and goes. The pilots knew who I was and would wave to me as they did their passes at truly jaw dropping slow speeds. 

You can’t get near either base since 9/11...

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On 11/5/2018 at 3:59 PM, Cruisin Loser said:

He's a nice young man, he loves my daughter, I love him for that.

It takes someone special to take on a girl who's had severe rheumatoid arthritis her whole life, with no end in sight. An odd thing, she's had health issues her whole life, but is about as totally immune to seasickness as anyone I've ever seen. She's also whip smart and a talented artist.

My biological clock is ticking and I want Grandkids NOW GODDAMNIT!!! Whatever his flaws, I'm not waiting for her to find someone incrementally better. He took the "shallow unmarked grave" talk to heart and didn't blink at the pre-nup.

The grandkids will be skiers, fly fishers, canoeists, shooters (especially the girls, my daughter has had a concealed carry license for many years), musicians and sailors. Oh, yes, they will sail.

Would a great sailor have been ideal? Sure, but that's not the way it turned out. I'm OK with it. As I said, he loves her and knows what he's getting himself into.

 

 

Congratulations on the upcoming wedding.

Did the prenup have a grandkid clause?  

I can remember like it was yesterday when my son called and said "Dad, are you sitting down?" That was almost 14 years ago. A couple weeks ago the grandkid and I were packing out his first buck. Time marches on.

Side story about that son's wedding. They got married after the grandkid was about 1 or so. They planned a simple ceremony at a local park pavilion with the justice of the peace. The judge never showed. Bride was crying, groom is pissed, got kind of shitty. Then my ex had an idea, she was working at the state prison and knew an officer who was and ordained minister. She called him and he agreed to drop what he was doing and come out. He shows up, a big booming black guy dressed to the nines. He sat the bride and groom down and had a long talk, then proceeded to perform one hell of a ceremony. He had the lilly white audience full of joy, spirit and tons of hallelujahs. He saved the day. I've been to some pretty elaborate weddings but none as much fun as that was.

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1 hour ago, southerncross said:

Nota boat but some nice craftsmanship.

Edit:  Not sure I'd justify $329/night to sleep in a pod.  http://freespiritspheres.com

Really beautiful and worth watching the whole thing; he is skilled (bronze castings) and talented with many good ideas.  Love the doors!  But $300+ per night is ABSURD.

tree_sphere.thumb.jpg.d179fc30769cb02eda1fc609dcb41dae.jpg

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13 minutes ago, ProaSailor said:

Really beautiful and worth watching the whole thing; he is skilled (bronze castings) and talented with many good ideas.  Love the doors!  But $300+ per night is ABSURD.

tree_sphere.thumb.jpg.d179fc30769cb02eda1fc609dcb41dae.jpg

The cheapest sphere, sleeping 3, is $299 CAD per night, or $226 USD.

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