• Announcements

    • Zapata

      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  
Sailbydate

Coolboats to admire

8,514 posts in this topic

Fugs:

Great find. Lovely boat. Very similar to the SLIVER project. Too bad the cabin trunk is so long. But it does buy headroom forward. My taste woud be for a flatter sheer to take some of the Banana look out of the boat. That photo from the starboard aft quarter shows how just a few degrees of heel can exagerate the sheer spring. But like the owner says, it may not be perfection buit it's close. I agree.

 

Does that one photo from the aft quarter distort the amount of sheer apparent?

 

It's interesting how she has less overhang like Sliver's lines. Her bow is quite different and without wanting to `piss in your pocket' I prefer Sliver's bow.

 

This boat is for high up on the cool board. You're about as tall and grumpy as Jeremy Clarkson, so can you put it there?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

BACCANT was the inspiration for Infidel, which became Ragtime, which inspired the West Coast sleds. So there's a link between these square meter boats and SC70s.

 

Maybe Fidelis came in there somewhere. I believe she came before Infidel, but I may have it backwards. Fidelis was in Hobart for the AWBF recently, looking pretty fast, especially for a 'leaner'. .http://www.asqma.com...es/Fidelis.html

She's a lovely boat. She used to be a gun boat on the Waitemata (Auckland, New Zealand) for many years. I sailed once on another A Class, the 'Ranger' as a kid in the Auckland Anniversary Regatta one year. Another great battle in the old A Class fleet. Great memories.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Shields. Olin Stephens design from the early 60s. The most beautiful boat on the planet, IMHO.

 

Stunning. The photos of the bows looks like the Soling took its bow straight off the Shield's lines.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well,,,not really. Not "apparent".

The sheer spring MUST be a fucntion of the distance the sheer travels. In other words (I sure as hell can't think of the right ones) imagine taking a very long tape measure, putting one end on the bow and then running the tape right alonf the top of the cap rail all the way to the stern. I call this the "distance the sheer travels".

 

Now do this measurement on the SLIVER project.

Then do it on another 62'er but one with normal beam say 17.5' of beam.

Your sheer "length" of SLIVER will be far less than that of the beamier boat.

The more distance the sher travels the more spring it needs.

Skinny boats do not need much sheer spring. They end up looking exagerated.

A beamy boat with minimal sheer will appear to have a flat sheer.

 

The same rule applies to a given sheerline and how the spring should be distributed. But I'll save that for later.

I'm hungry.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well,,,not really. Not "apparent".

The sheer spring MUST be a fucntion of the distance the sheer travels. In other words (I sure as hell can't think of the right ones) imagine taking a very long tape measure, putting one end on the bow and then running the tape right alonf the top of the cap rail all the way to the stern. I call this the "distance the sheer travels".

 

Now do this measurement on the SLIVER project.

Then do it on another 62'er but one with normal beam say 17.5' of beam.

Your sheer "length" of SLIVER will be far less than that of the beamier boat.

The more distance the sher travels the more spring it needs.

Skinny boats do not need much sheer spring. They end up looking exagerated.

A beamy boat with minimal sheer will appear to have a flat sheer.

 

The same rule applies to a given sheerline and how the spring should be distributed. But I'll save that for later.

I'm hungry.

 

Always learning from you Bob, thanks for that explanation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd been meaning to post pictures of this under the general cool boat thread, but the invasion of the thread by Scandinavian style boats has prompted me to go questing for photos from the owner's website.

 

She may be the coolest boat I know in my neck of the woods (or at least the coolest new build): she's a really outrageous 70 foot take on a Tumlare, designed and built by her owner, who seems to be one of those people who can do a million things before lunch - start a corporation, have a family, design and build a boat . . . Anyway, a boat that conforms to nothing at all, just wants to go faster and look better. Makes the Spirit boats (to whom she's a neighbour) look like conformist consumer items.

 

She's been for sale for a while, but you can just imagine the equation that the average boat buyer makes between berthing fees, accommodation etc. http://www.keme.net/...ine/WEB1/madam/

 

If I didn't have the second coolest new build wooden boat on the East Coast . . .

 

 

E

 

I tried to follow up on this vessel a couple of years ago. Saw her listed on an European Broker's website. She was very close to what I thought I wanted and one of the vessels I really wanted to check out. Never got an answer to my several inquiries.

 

So I gave up trying and instead went to Bob and started the Sliver project.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well,,,not really. Not "apparent".

The sheer spring MUST be a fucntion of the distance the sheer travels. In other words (I sure as hell can't think of the right ones) imagine taking a very long tape measure, putting one end on the bow and then running the tape right alonf the top of the cap rail all the way to the stern. I call this the "distance the sheer travels".

 

Now do this measurement on the SLIVER project.

Then do it on another 62'er but one with normal beam say 17.5' of beam.

Your sheer "length" of SLIVER will be far less than that of the beamier boat.

The more distance the sher travels the more spring it needs.

Skinny boats do not need much sheer spring. They end up looking exagerated.

A beamy boat with minimal sheer will appear to have a flat sheer.

 

The same rule applies to a given sheerline and how the spring should be distributed. But I'll save that for later.

I'm hungry.

 

Always learning from you Bob, thanks for that explanation.

 

+1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

BACCANT was the inspiration for Infidel, which became Ragtime, which inspired the West Coast sleds. So there's a link between these square meter boats and SC70s.

 

Maybe Fidelis came in there somewhere. I believe she came before Infidel, but I may have it backwards. Fidelis was in Hobart for the AWBF recently, looking pretty fast, especially for a 'leaner'. .http://www.asqma.com...es/Fidelis.html

 

The 1936 Reimers design Bacchante was written about by Uffa Fox and her lines were published in Yachting Monthly. Those Lines became the basis of the 1938 boat Ranger which dominated local racing in Auckland for the next 30 years. In 1962 Vic Speight (also of Auckland) visited Newport(for the Americas Cup) and saw Bacchante....He asked Reimers for her lines and was told the cost would be 10,000 pounds sterling.....the cost of three houses in Auckland at the time. So he had Fidelis built from those same Uffa Fox drawings published in Sail and Power. Infidel is completely different and bears no relation to the 75 sq metre except perhaps her length overall is close.....She's vee-bottomed, lighter, wider, deeper, carries more sail, and is a modern boat with separate spade rudder.....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

BACCANT was the inspiration for Infidel, which became Ragtime, which inspired the West Coast sleds. So there's a link between these square meter boats and SC70s.

 

Maybe Fidelis came in there somewhere. I believe she came before Infidel, but I may have it backwards. Fidelis was in Hobart for the AWBF recently, looking pretty fast, especially for a 'leaner'. .http://www.asqma.com...es/Fidelis.html

 

The 1936 Reimers design Bacchante was written about by Uffa Fox and her lines were published in Yachting Monthly. Those Lines became the basis of the 1938 boat Ranger which dominated local racing in Auckland for the next 30 years. In 1962 Vic Speight (also of Auckland) visited Newport(for the Americas Cup) and saw Bacchante....He asked Reimers for her lines and was told the cost would be 10,000 pounds sterling.....the cost of three houses in Auckland at the time. So he had Fidelis built from those same Uffa Fox drawings published in Sail and Power. Infidel is completely different and bears no relation to the 75 sq metre except perhaps her length overall is close.....She's vee-bottomed, lighter, wider, deeper, carries more sail, and is a modern boat with separate spade rudder.....

 

Thanks Tad, you saved me from having to say Infidel (Ragtime) is in no way a Square Metre boat design or a Reimers design (and I am sure Spencer would not be pleased with that error in identification.). Very cool boat none the less!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well,,,not really. Not "apparent".

The sheer spring MUST be a fucntion of the distance the sheer travels. In other words (I sure as hell can't think of the right ones) imagine taking a very long tape measure, putting one end on the bow and then running the tape right alonf the top of the cap rail all the way to the stern. I call this the "distance the sheer travels".

 

Now do this measurement on the SLIVER project.

Then do it on another 62'er but one with normal beam say 17.5' of beam.

Your sheer "length" of SLIVER will be far less than that of the beamier boat.

The more distance the sher travels the more spring it needs.

Skinny boats do not need much sheer spring. They end up looking exagerated.

A beamy boat with minimal sheer will appear to have a flat sheer.

 

The same rule applies to a given sheerline and how the spring should be distributed. But I'll save that for later.

I'm hungry.

 

Always learning from you Bob, thanks for that explanation.

 

+1

 

If he keeps it up, I may one day learn what these fancy designer terms mean.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

BACCANT was the inspiration for Infidel, which became Ragtime, which inspired the West Coast sleds. So there's a link between these square meter boats and SC70s.

 

Maybe Fidelis came in there somewhere. I believe she came before Infidel, but I may have it backwards. Fidelis was in Hobart for the AWBF recently, looking pretty fast, especially for a 'leaner'. .http://www.asqma.com...es/Fidelis.html

 

The 1936 Reimers design Bacchante was written about by Uffa Fox and her lines were published in Yachting Monthly. Those Lines became the basis of the 1938 boat Ranger which dominated local racing in Auckland for the next 30 years. In 1962 Vic Speight (also of Auckland) visited Newport(for the Americas Cup) and saw Bacchante....He asked Reimers for her lines and was told the cost would be 10,000 pounds sterling.....the cost of three houses in Auckland at the time. So he had Fidelis built from those same Uffa Fox drawings published in Sail and Power. Infidel is completely different and bears no relation to the 75 sq metre except perhaps her length overall is close.....She's vee-bottomed, lighter, wider, deeper, carries more sail, and is a modern boat with separate spade rudder.....

 

I stand corrected. I confused the story. It was Ranger that was derived from BACCANT. Sorry about the goof, and thanks for setting the record straight.

 

Charlie

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This yacht was a real design game changer. Newspaper Taxis was an IOR Half Tonner, designed by Paul Whiting in '76 I think. The first yacht I ever saw with a distorted hull shape to fit the IOR rule measuring points. A light displacement flyer, she was truly radical in her time - with a centre board and her fractional rig. This is a very Coolboat IMO.

post-76289-0-11580400-1363388084_thumb.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tom:

You mean terms like "skinny"?

 

I was thinking more of sheer spring, but that's not alone among common designer terms that you use and I don't understand. As I've said before, I'm a consumer of boats and know virtually nothing about design other than what I like to use. I really don't even know the simplest terms in the language of your trade. It makes some of the design discussions a bit hard to follow, but I am figuring out some of them from context. The more I learn, the more I realize I don't know, and the more glad I am that there are people out there to design boats for me to use.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tom:

Maybe some time we need to start a thread where people submit terms they need an explanation for and we can all muck in on the explanations. Probably get some good debates going.

 

Sheer spring is the term I use to describe just how much vertical "bend" there is in the sheer. A boat with a straight sheer has zero spring.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tom:

Maybe some time we need to start a thread where people submit terms they need an explanation for and we can all muck in on the explanations. Probably get some good debates going.

 

Sheer spring is the term I use to describe just how much vertical "bend" there is in the sheer. A boat with a straight sheer has zero spring.

Great idea, Bob. A sort of Boatpedia. I like it. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

She looks more like a quarter tonner in that pic.

 

Yes, she does. She was (is?) pretty much a bigger version of Paul's quarter tonner, Magic Bus.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tom:

Maybe some time we need to start a thread where people submit terms they need an explanation for and we can all muck in on the explanations. Probably get some good debates going.

 

Sheer spring is the term I use to describe just how much vertical "bend" there is in the sheer. A boat with a straight sheer has zero spring.

 

Maybe I'll start one when I get home. I'm on the boat in Pelican Bay right now and running out of battery.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here is a very cool boat: Walter Grene. She is a modern take on a Herreshoff desin called Arion. Arion herself was a very early fiberglass boat, Walter Greene is cold molded. Overall length: 42' Beam 8'1" Wooden Boat did an article on both boats a few years ago and I have not stopped drooling.

 

 

http://www.mattsmith...ltergreene.html

Looks to be for sale: http://www.boattrade...shoff-101817218

 

4021092_-1_20120724090633_6_0.jpg?w=640&h=480&1126953

 

Sail Plan: 1017-307.pdf

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tom:

Maybe some time we need to start a thread where people submit terms they need an explanation for and we can all muck in on the explanations. Probably get some good debates going.

 

Sheer spring is the term I use to describe just how much vertical "bend" there is in the sheer. A boat with a straight sheer has zero spring.

 

Maybe I'll start one when I get home. I'm on the boat in Pelican Bay right now and running out of battery.

Good one, Tom. It will probably take more computer skills than I can muster. I've been thinking about a simple format to get it started, over the weekend. Maybe a simple alpha index for the query, as in Sheer Spring (thanks for that one, Bob) and then - blogger contributions underneath?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Great idea, Bob. A sort of Boatpedia. I like it. :)

 

There was a time that most boat reviews (in Yachting) said the boat had a clean run. I never knew quite what that meant, and no boat was ever tagged as having a dirty run for comparison. I'm pretty sure, though, that the Ranger 26 has a clean run. If fact, I think Gary Mull was the king of clean run designers. But I still don't know what they were trying to say.

 

I also never understood when it was written that a boat had a powerful mid-section.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here is a very cool boat: Walter Grene. She is a modern take on a Herreshoff desin called Arion. Arion herself was a very early fiberglass boat, Walter Greene is cold molded. Overall length: 42' Beam 8'1" Wooden Boat did an article on both boats a few years ago and I have not stopped drooling.

 

 

http://www.mattsmith...ltergreene.html

Looks to be for sale: http://www.boattrade...shoff-101817218

 

4021092_-1_20120724090633_6_0.jpg?w=640&h=480&1126953

 

Sail Plan: 1017-307.pdf

 

She's a nice boat. Some additional drawings on the designer's web site I see. She's simple but elegant.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Semi:

"clean run" refers to straight buttocks aft. This requires a minimum of shape change in the final section of the boat to keep the buttocks raunning straight and almost parallel.

Maybe "lacvk of rocker aft" would be another way to put it.

 

"Powerful mid section" refers to a firm turn to the bilge for good initial stability as opposed to a boat with high deadrise and slack bilges.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Semi:

"clean run" refers to straight buttocks aft. This requires a minimum of shape change in the final section of the boat to keep the buttocks raunning straight and almost parallel. Flat and close to parallel to water line, as opposed to curved upwards.

Maybe "lacvk of rocker aft" would be another way to put it. Yes. Good.

 

"Powerful mid section" refers to a firm turn to the bilge for good initial stability as opposed to a boat with high deadrise and slack bilges.

 

A couple of pics to illustrate flat run vs rockered. Boats aren't of equal length but they illustrate the point, hopefully.

 

Some boat buttocks are so curved they incorporate a bustle, usually around a rudder skeg.

post-76289-0-24194000-1363560865_thumb.jpg

post-76289-0-85401700-1363560889_thumb.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"Powerful mid section" refers to a firm turn to the bilge for good initial stability as opposed to a boat with high deadrise and slack bilges.

 

That's what I would have thought, but....

 

Here's an example from Roger Taylor. You're not responsible for what he wrote, so you don't have to explain. Perhaps he was just flat wrong, but you can see why I get confused. (I get confused easily.)

 

Sensible Cruising Designs (LFH), page 341

post-5724-0-24992000-1363560748_thumb.jpg

 

The lines of the vessel in question: page 343

 

post-5724-0-64151100-1363560768_thumb.jpg

 

For those following the narrow boat question, note that this vessel has an L/B of about 4. I think the stern is a little unusual, coming to a narrow transom with an outboard rudder.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Semi:

Don't apoligize. He was right, in context. And if you read it again he says something like, "as powerful a midesction as LFH ever drew". It's all relative.

 

Sailby:

No, I don't think you can lump in a bustle with rocker. A bustle exists outside of the canoe body or "fairbody" line. To appreciate/evaluate rocker I think you have to visually, fair through the bustle.

Think of it like this, if you will: You could have a very flat run i.e. minimal rocker, and still put a bustle on the boat.

 

I am not trying to pontificate. I am just trying to accurately pass along what I have been trying to learn for the last 52 years. I have been trying very hard. All the time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"Powerful mid section" refers to a firm turn to the bilge for good initial stability as opposed to a boat with high deadrise and slack bilges.

 

That's what I would have thought, but....

 

Here's an example from Roger Taylor. You're not responsible for what he wrote, so you don't have to explain. Perhaps he was just flat wrong, but you can see why I get confused. (I get confused easily.)

 

Sensible Cruising Designs (LFH), page 341

post-5724-0-24992000-1363560748_thumb.jpg

 

The lines of the vessel in question: page 343

 

post-5724-0-64151100-1363560768_thumb.jpg

 

For those following the narrow boat question, note that this vessel has an L/B of about 4. I think the stern is a little unusual, coming to a narrow transom with an outboard rudder.

 

Looking at her lines, 'SemiSalt', I can't see anything at odds with Bob's description of 'powerful mid-sections'. Below is lines of a yacht with much slacker mid-sections, as a comparison.

post-76289-0-37913300-1363565163_thumb.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Semi:

Don't apoligize. He was right, in context. And if you read it again he says something like, "as powerful a midesction as LFH ever drew". It's all relative.

 

Sailby:

No, I don't think you can lump in a bustle with rocker. A bustle exists outside of the canoe body or "fairbody" line. To appreciate/evaluate rocker I think you have to visually, fair through the bustle.

Think of it like this, if you will: You could have a very flat run i.e. minimal rocker, and still put a bustle on the boat.

 

I am not trying to pontificate. I am just trying to accurately pass along what I have been trying to learn for the last 52 years. I have been trying very hard. All the time.

Thanks, Bob. No argument from me. You're a practitioner. I'm a casual observer. So why, I wonder, would you add a bustle to a flat run? I understood a flat run would help to maximise hull plane effect.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I guess I was looking at the deadrise rather than the turn of the bilge. I see the deep displaced volume along the centerline and think it could be redrawn to give a lot more form stability.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Semi:

Don't apoligize. He was right, in context. And if you read it again he says something like, "as powerful a midesction as LFH ever drew". It's all relative.

 

Sailby:

No, I don't think you can lump in a bustle with rocker. A bustle exists outside of the canoe body or "fairbody" line. To appreciate/evaluate rocker I think you have to visually, fair through the bustle.

Think of it like this, if you will: You could have a very flat run i.e. minimal rocker, and still put a bustle on the boat.

 

I am not trying to pontificate. I am just trying to accurately pass along what I have been trying to learn for the last 52 years. I have been trying very hard. All the time.

Thanks, Bob. No argument from me. You're a practitioner. I'm a casual observer. So why, I wonder, would you add a bustle to a flat run? I understood a flat run would help to maximise hull plane effect.

 

I think the bustle was to make the measurement points for IOR, and to really fuck up half-model builders. I look at this and wonder how the hell I'm going to carve that at 1/2"=1'.

 

bustle.jpg

 

It really is quite a contorted shape when you look at it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sailby:

I just finished dinner and I have had some wine so I may not be up to giving you a really concise desription of eactly what a bustle is.

But if you can read thru my awful typing I'll try.

 

The bustle was a rule artifact. Period.

 

If the rule was a girth based rule like the RORC and the IOR and the meter boat rume ( it wasn't called that. I think it was the International Rule or the Universal Rule but we know it now as the "meter boat rule, 5.5m, 6m. 8m, 10m and 12m's.)

But they were girth based rules and as such they tried to make you squeze the volume aft to minimize girth. One way around this, given the way girth was measured ( another whole chapter) was to bump out a bustle. The reason you wanted to do this was to INCREASE THE PRISMATIC COEFICIENT. The effort was to push or add volume aft. Adding volume aft theoreticaly increased the sailing length.

 

Working with the America's Cup 12m's the designers ahd to deal with a midsghips girth penalty that forced them to make the midsection really full. But that meade the ends really fine, for a given displacement. So the "secret" was to add a bustle that would force volume aft. But without a rule the bustle made absolutely no sense. But it took us years to figure this out.

 

Does that make sense?

I though not.

Oh well, that's the best you are going to get tonight.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Shields. Olin Stephens design from the early 60s. The most beautiful boat on the planet, IMHO.

 

I'm surprised no one else picked up on this nomination. Agreed! The Shields (like the IOD) is a great boat. I owned hull #54 which. like the #53 pictured, was built by Chris Craft and had a reputation for being 'light'. I loved the boat and wish I hadn't sold it.

 

Another boat I saw but was too late to return to the States to buy fast enough was called BIJOU, I believe, A modern 40' meter boat built in Scandina (might have been Germany, come to think of it) of fiberglass and mahagony that was listed in Annapolis in 1999. Ahhh, the ones tat get away!

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

BTW Bob, once again, I open a thread and find myself on the edge of my seat, learning from you. If I haven't thanked you for that generosity lately, kick me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks Mung. I muck in when I can.

For the record, I think the Shields is kind of a silly boat. No waterline. Pretty but not efficient at all. Why would anyone want the rudder there?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Shields. Olin Stephens design from the early 60s. The most beautiful boat on the planet, IMHO.

 

I'm surprised no one else picked up on this nomination. Agreed! The Shields (like the IOD) is a great boat. I owned hull #54 which. like the #53 pictured, was built by Chris Craft and had a reputation for being 'light'. I loved the boat and wish I hadn't sold it.

 

Another boat I saw but was too late to return to the States to buy fast enough was called BIJOU, I believe, A modern 40' meter boat built in Scandina (might have been Germany, come to think of it) of fiberglass and mahagony that was listed in Annapolis in 1999. Ahhh, the ones tat get away!

 

Bijou II ( the original design by Knud Reimers) is traditionally built wood and now located here on Bainbridge Island and belongs to our good friends Russ and Tina. She was built by Beck & Sohne in Germany in about 1972. The later Bijou's were also built by Beck & Sohne and they seem to have built 40+ of them to the same design over the years in several different configurations and in both cold molded wood and fiberglass versions.

 

Our's was a 1995 built "composite" version which to Beck & Sohne was fiberglass hull with teak deck. Some of the Germany 30 owners of more traditional boats claim the later boats were built too light (hence faster) and there was a split in the Germany 30 fleet with the newer boats dubbed "table B boats".

 

I don't know all of the details, but I understand our 30 was a "table B boat". The Swedish fleet measuring guy told me if I brought my 30 to Sweden I would be allowed to race with the standard 30 fleet. (It was easier to simply charter a local 30 when we raced in the 100 year anniversary races in 2008 in Sandhamn.)

 

Great boats, I would still have mine if the Sliver project didn't exist. But I only have so much room at my dock.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sailby:

I just finished dinner and I have had some wine so I may not be up to giving you a really concise desription of eactly what a bustle is.

But if you can read thru my awful typing I'll try.

 

The bustle was a rule artifact. Period.

 

If the rule was a girth based rule like the RORC and the IOR and the meter boat rume ( it wasn't called that. I think it was the International Rule or the Universal Rule but we know it now as the "meter boat rule, 5.5m, 6m. 8m, 10m and 12m's.)

But they were girth based rules and as such they tried to make you squeze the volume aft to minimize girth. One way around this, given the way girth was measured ( another whole chapter) was to bump out a bustle. The reason you wanted to do this was to INCREASE THE PRISMATIC COEFICIENT. The effort was to push or add volume aft. Adding volume aft theoreticaly increased the sailing length.

 

Working with the America's Cup 12m's the designers ahd to deal with a midsghips girth penalty that forced them to make the midsection really full. But that meade the ends really fine, for a given displacement. So the "secret" was to add a bustle that would force volume aft. But without a rule the bustle made absolutely no sense. But it took us years to figure this out.

 

Does that make sense?

I though not.

Oh well, that's the best you are going to get tonight.

Thanks, Bob. That's helpful.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Can we get back to cool boats? Here are a couple of the coolest kind of boats: ones the owners are out enjoying. One sails a bit better than the other. It also motors quite a bit better, but what can you do? ;)

 

cool-boats.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks Tom, the blue boat looks like my kinda day sailer. Dencho built a 20 odd footer recently which looked a bit like her, quite an appealing size, especially when Van Diemen is about to get her topsides done!!!!!!!!!!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks Tom, the blue boat looks like my kinda day sailer. Dencho built a 20 odd footer recently which looked a bit like her, quite an appealing size, especially when Van Diemen is about to get her topsides done!!!!!!!!!!!

 

That's our 17' Com-Pac Sun Cat. After several years of ownership, my wife finally agreed to an overnight onboard. She found it cramped and was annoyed by the need to move everything to get to anything. Back to daysailing for our boat! ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Global:

That was my little gaffer for the doctor in New Orleans.

 

I've seen that pic before but there really hasn't been much published about it either on the net or in print. I suppose there's lots of good boats that get designed, built and enjoyed that we never see or hear much about. All the same, it'd be nice to see more info about this one. Did it come out of what started in that 'Target Market" thread?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Veegs:

No, the 20' gaffer came from a consultation client who after looking at many boats that just didn't hit the mark, just asked me, "Could you design one for me?" And off we went.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Are designs that haven't been built kosher? Since there's been a bunch of long skinny boat, and double enders... I've been drooling over this un-built Garden design.

post-41417-0-43503500-1363621640_thumb.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

She's got about 15' too much overhang but I could dream about something like that.... (oh, wait, I have and I do)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bob, did 'Choater-the-boater" make a plug or was she a one off? I missed seeing her being built. Looks promising,,,,,,

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sailed by this beautiful driftwood yesterday - equal parts Stratovarius & salty cruiser. Very elegant boat. An ideal many would consider perfect.

 

DSC_5629.jpg

 

DSC_5628-1.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Can we get back to cool boats? Here are a couple of the coolest kind of boats: ones the owners are out enjoying. One sails a bit better than the other. It also motors quite a bit better, but what can you do? ;)

 

cool-boats.jpg

 

Bugger off, Tom. I'm not biting. Cool boat in the foreground.. that's all I'm saying.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Global:

That was my little gaffer for the doctor in New Orleans.

 

Ok Bob, I know ya going to dock me a glass or two of scotch but the builder shouldna done the coaming that way (I'd tell the builder myself) .

 

She is still very much on the cool board though.....

 

It'll be my boat in 20 years.

post-14496-0-13408500-1363638469_thumb.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sailed by this beautiful driftwood yesterday - equal parts Stratovarius & salty cruiser. Very elegant boat. An ideal many would consider perfect.

 

DSC_5629.jpg

 

DSC_5628-1.jpg

Very nearly perfect. Sweet.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Global:

That was my little gaffer for the doctor in New Orleans.

Pretty little boat, Bob. I like the cuddy and cockpit coaming (even if it wasn't drawn that way). Have you a sail plan image to share?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Can we get back to cool boats? Here are a couple of the coolest kind of boats: ones the owners are out enjoying. One sails a bit better than the other. It also motors quite a bit better, but what can you do? ;)

 

cool-boats.jpg

 

Bugger off, Tom. I'm not biting. Cool boat in the foreground.. that's all I'm saying.

 

I'm thinking the family of four staying on that other one thought it cooler for the purpose than a boat with only two bunks. ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Egret is another cool boat.

 

egret-pelican-bay-2013.jpg

 

Hey, I can't help it if yet another undesirable (or two, if you count the one on the far right) shows up in the background of my picture. People use their boats. I think that's cool too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In image form:

 

perry-20-gaffer.gif

 

I like everything about it except the draft. Really like the large cockpit. I'd make Bob design it with a centerboard or daggerboard, which would totally screw up that little cabin. But at least I could back it onto the beach like other cool boats. ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In image form:

 

perry-20-gaffer.gif

 

I like everything about it except the draft. Really like the large cockpit. I'd make Bob design it with a centerboard or daggerboard, which would totally screw up that little cabin. But at least I could back it onto the beach like other cool boats. ;)

She's cute, alright. Maybe leave out the lazarette (or is it a watertight compartment) too?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In image form:

 

perry-20-gaffer.gif

 

I like everything about it except the draft. Really like the large cockpit. I'd make Bob design it with a centerboard or daggerboard, which would totally screw up that little cabin. But at least I could back it onto the beach like other cool boats. ;)

She's cute, alright. Maybe leave out the lazarette (or is it a watertight compartment) too?

 

Thanks, Bob! She's got lots of good stuff going on, bet she's a blast to sail!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Egret is another cool boat.

 

egret-pelican-bay-2013.jpg

 

Hey, I can't help it if yet another undesirable (or two, if you count the one on the far right) shows up in the background of my picture. People use their boats. I think that's cool too.

 

Tom, I really like that little schooner! Thanks for sharing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Globs:

Here you go.

Maybe someone can make a pretty jpeg ouit of this. I'm off to Tai Chi so I can push old ladies around.

 

Old lady pushing skills are critical when they start swinging those iron tipped umbrellas at your cranium. Keep your tai chi balance and push'em just enough to unbalance them and grab the umbrella and them at the same time and teeter em back to center and then open the damn thing for em. They calm right down after that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In image form:

 

perry-20-gaffer.gif

 

I like everything about it except the draft. Really like the large cockpit. I'd make Bob design it with a centerboard or daggerboard, which would totally screw up that little cabin. But at least I could back it onto the beach like other cool boats. ;)

She's cute, alright. Maybe leave out the lazarette (or is it a watertight compartment) too?

 

How can you tell if there is a lazarette from that drawing?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In image form:

 

perry-20-gaffer.gif

 

I like everything about it except the draft. Really like the large cockpit. I'd make Bob design it with a centerboard or daggerboard, which would totally screw up that little cabin. But at least I could back it onto the beach like other cool boats. ;)

She's cute, alright. Maybe leave out the lazarette (or is it a watertight compartment) too?

 

How can you tell if there is a lazarette from that drawing?

I can't, 'Paps'. But there seemed to be one (or perhaps just a stern watertight bulkhead) in the photograph. Go back a couple of posts to check it out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The pic in post 252 by Tricky shows that the cockpit ends and then there's a couple of feet of white. Could be a locker, could be a watertight compartment, but I think it's where they hid an outboard. Who puts a diesel in a 20 footer? Besides Com-Pac, I mean.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The fixed keel is there for a reason and for the record I think this is a "cool" boat even if you can't park it on the beach. Not everyone wants to do that.

This keel and hull form were chosen because both the client and his wife have bad knees and they wanted a very stiff boat. I seldom choose a major designn feature arbitrarily.

 

Yes, there is a small laz aft.

 

Here is a rendering of the boat that Sons did a while back. I think this was the first project I worked on with Sons. He did a beautiful job.

You can see in this rendering how I intended the coamings to be. Builders!

post-2980-0-91087400-1363703103_thumb.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The fixed keel is there for a reason and for the record I think this is a "cool" boat even if you can't park it on the beach. Not everyone wants to do that.

...

Yes, there is a small laz aft.

...

 

I worded that poorly, but I think it's a cool boat even with the 4' draft, just not cool for me.

 

Is that boat diesel or outboard powered?

 

My earlier reference to Com-Pac putting a diesel in a 20 footer was a Horizon Cat reference. It's a cool boat, but I would want the outboard version.

 

I learned this morning that they have now put a diesel in their 20' sloop, the Eclipse, which is basically an old Com-Pac 19 that was cross-bred with a modern Hunter. I like them, but again would prefer the outboard one. I still like the Horizon Cat better.

 

Here's the prototype diesel Eclipse:

 

diesel-eclipse.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The fixed keel is there for a reason and for the record I think this is a "cool" boat even if you can't park it on the beach. Not everyone wants to do that.

This keel and hull form were chosen because both the client and his wife have bad knees and they wanted a very stiff boat. I seldom choose a major designn feature arbitrarily.

 

Yes, there is a small laz aft.

 

Here is a rendering of the boat that Sons did a while back. I think this was the first project I worked on with Sons. He did a beautiful job.

You can see in this rendering how I intended the coamings to be. Builders!

 

That is a beautiful boat Bob. I would love to play with that tiny topsail.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Who puts a diesel in a 20 footer? Besides Com-Pac, I mean.

 

I put one in my old Mystic 20.

post-22524-0-78268700-1363707053_thumb.jpg

post-22524-0-17829200-1363707076_thumb.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I loved my little 9.5hp Volvo diesel in the mighty PERRYWINKLE. I would not want to live with an outboard given the amount of motoring we have to do in Puget Sound. That said, I did spec an outboard in my "ultimate 21'er" I drew for myself.

 

I spent many a pleasant hour put, put, putting up the Sound on a glassy sea with the little diesel. I'm a Volvo small diesel fan.

 

In case you are wondering about the sail logo on my 20'er:

We called the boat the "Old Farts 20". The cloud coming off the "20" is supposed to be a fart.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The fixed keel is there for a reason and for the record I think this is a "cool" boat even if you can't park it on the beach. Not everyone wants to do that.

This keel and hull form were chosen because both the client and his wife have bad knees and they wanted a very stiff boat. I seldom choose a major designn feature arbitrarily.

 

Yes, there is a small laz aft.

 

Here is a rendering of the boat that Sons did a while back. I think this was the first project I worked on with Sons. He did a beautiful job.

You can see in this rendering how I intended the coamings to be. Builders!

 

Sons does good work, really makes a boat come alive before it is built in the flesh. The OF20 is pretty sweet! I'm almost tempted to replace my YOD picture with this rendering for my desktop wallpaper..... almost.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That said, I did spec an outboard in my "ultimate 21'er" I drew for myself.

 

 

Hi Bob,

 

I went everywhere looking for a drawing of this boat, forums, blogs etc but I couldn't find anything. You may have posted something before but would you mind if we had a `stickybeak' at a drawing of this boat?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tricky:

Here you go. Not sure which iteration this is but it was the first jpeg I came to.

post-2980-0-17505000-1363718789_thumb.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Herev is the layout. Note the guitar stowage space.

 

Cool. She has plenty of keel and rig; a sailor's boat.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I loved my little 9.5hp Volvo diesel in the mighty PERRYWINKLE. I would not want to live with an outboard given the amount of motoring we have to do in Puget Sound. That said, I did spec an outboard in my "ultimate 21'er" I drew for myself.

 

I spent many a pleasant hour put, put, putting up the Sound on a glassy sea with the little diesel. I'm a Volvo small diesel fan.

 

In case you are wondering about the sail logo on my 20'er:

We called the boat the "Old Farts 20". The cloud coming off the "20" is supposed to be a fart.

 

For some reason, it looks like a wet fart :(

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've never seen a fart before, thanks for sharing, Bob.

 

I like the way you put "[description of boat] for [lucky owner]" on your drawings.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I used to have an outboard on the back of one of my boats. It was OK. The sound in the cabin with the engine running was subdued, and in the cockpit it wasn't too terrible. Mounted way aft it tended to pop out of the water in a heavy chop untill you got going fast enough to pull up the stern wave, but in those conditions you are generally sailing anyway.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The fixed keel is there for a reason and for the record I think this is a "cool" boat even if you can't park it on the beach. Not everyone wants to do that.

...

Yes, there is a small laz aft.

...

 

I worded that poorly, but I think it's a cool boat even with the 4' draft, just not cool for me.

 

Is that boat diesel or outboard powered?

 

My earlier reference to Com-Pac putting a diesel in a 20 footer was a Horizon Cat reference. It's a cool boat, but I would want the outboard version.

 

I learned this morning that they have now put a diesel in their 20' sloop, the Eclipse, which is basically an old Com-Pac 19 that was cross-bred with a modern Hunter. I like them, but again would prefer the outboard one. I still like the Horizon Cat better.

 

Here's the prototype diesel Eclipse:

 

diesel-eclipse.jpg

Smart little boat.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I put one in my old Mystic 20.

 

Someday, I may go back to catboating, and I can hope there is Mystic 20 to be found.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Those are sweet, Ish. That blue one appears to me to have a big nose.

 

She does have a bit of a bob. (Not you, Bob).

 

r2.jpg

 

 

WHL will be along shortly to wax rhapsodic. ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Those are sweet, Ish. That blue one appears to me to have a big nose.

 

She does have a bit of a bob. (Not you, Bob).

 

r2.jpg

 

 

WHL will be along shortly to wax rhapsodic. ;)

Nice. Any idea where that anchorage is? Talk about the ideal set-up. Wow.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Those are sweet, Ish. That blue one appears to me to have a big nose.

 

She does have a bit of a bob. (Not you, Bob).

 

r2.jpg

 

 

WHL will be along shortly to wax rhapsodic. ;)

 

wow, that shot looks like a diarama !

 

long depth of field, modern digital camera enhancement of the lighting with that cabin, flat water... interesting photo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Those look like R boats. Lady Van and Pirate maybe? I love the hollow in the white one's forward overhang. Beautiful picture too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Those are sweet, Ish. That blue one appears to me to have a big nose.

 

She does have a bit of a bob. (Not you, Bob).

 

r2.jpg

 

 

WHL will be along shortly to wax rhapsodic. ;)

 

I didn't think wax on varnish was a good idea... varies by climate I suppose...

 

FB- Doug

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Milo:

I don't see any hollow at all in the white boats bow overhang. Where do you see it?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd been meaning to post pictures of this under the general cool boat thread, but the invasion of the thread by Scandinavian style boats has prompted me to go questing for photos from the owner's website.

 

She may be the coolest boat I know in my neck of the woods (or at least the coolest new build): she's a really outrageous 70 foot take on a Tumlare, designed and built by her owner, who seems to be one of those people who can do a million things before lunch - start a corporation, have a family, design and build a boat . . . Anyway, a boat that conforms to nothing at all, just wants to go faster and look better. Makes the Spirit boats (to whom she's a neighbour) look like conformist consumer items.

 

She's been for sale for a while, but you can just imagine the equation that the average boat buyer makes between berthing fees, accommodation etc. http://www.keme.net/...ine/WEB1/madam/

 

If I didn't have the second coolest new build wooden boat on the East Coast . . .

 

 

E

 

I've sailed past that boat on her mooring loads of times. She looks deceidedly weird. Flat sheer, an awful lot of boat aft of the mast, slabby topsides the canoe stern is all wrong. The perils of a custom design.

 

De gustibus non est disputandum.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Whinger:

"Flat sheer"? I think it has too much sheer spring. But I have not seen it in person.

"Canoe stern is all wrong"? Really. I'm a true expert on canoe sterns and I find this one just fine. It's not what I would draw but it's not bad.

" A lot of boat after the mast"? That's simply a function of LOA and displ and the rig size required to drive the boat.

Stop your whinging.

 

Obviosly I would have done everything different on that boat but that's my curse. I think the owner/designer did a pretty good job. I'd give him a solid B.

 

Agricolae in agro est.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The sheer on Madam is decieving... from some angles it's quite pronounced;

 

madam%202.JPG

 

And from other angles, it appears rather flat:

 

madam%201.JPG

 

 

Only a 'B' Bob? Man, you're a tough grader.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Kir:

Of course the sheer looks flat from the weather side with the boat heeled. They all do.

And if the photo were taken from the leeeward side the spring would be exagerated.

In fact, if the sheer is planar or even near planar, at some heel angle from the weather side the sheer, by the definition of planar, will look dead flat, straight.

I don't think you should ever photograph any boat from the weather side.

 

I try hard to not like this boat but I keep liking it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Those are sweet, Ish. That blue one appears to me to have a big nose.

 

She does have a bit of a bob. (Not you, Bob).

 

r2.jpg

 

 

WHL will be along shortly to wax rhapsodic. ;)

Nice. Any idea where that anchorage is? Talk about the ideal set-up. Wow.

 

That is on the way out of my marina in Tsehum Harbour, just north of Sidney, BC. South end of Vancouver Island. Those boats were on a borrowed dock. You're right, it's a beautiful location. I'll see if I can pull up a decent Google Earth image of it.

R boats is correct.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Milo:

I don't see any hollow at all in the white boats bow overhang. Where do you see it?

 

Sorry Bob, poor word choice. It's a very "fine" end, though. Longer and with a lot less volume than a CCA boat, for example.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Milo:

Exactly. "Fine" is the perfect word.

The CCA did not measure any girths so the ends became very full in an effort to pick up sailing length. CCA bows are not the prettiest of bows.

 

I love that R boat hull with so much equisite shape and then they contrast it with a very boxy cabin trunk. It really identifies the period.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here is a very cool boat: Walter Grene. She is a modern take on a Herreshoff desin called Arion. Arion herself was a very early fiberglass boat, Walter Greene is cold molded. Overall length: 42' Beam 8'1" Wooden Boat did an article on both boats a few years ago and I have not stopped drooling.

 

 

http://www.mattsmith...ltergreene.html

Looks to be for sale: http://www.boattrade...shoff-101817218

 

4021092_-1_20120724090633_6_0.jpg?w=640&h=480&1126953

 

Sail Plan: 1017-307.pdf

 

She's a nice boat. Some additional drawings on the designer's web site I see. She's simple but elegant.

Someone mentioned Arion....here's the original, pic from this past summer.

DSC04118.JPG

 

 

I worked on Arion's restoration and the building of Walter Greene 11 odd years ago, cool boats. Hustling out to the start line (late as usual) in the modified 110 last summer for the CYC around the island race, it was pretty sweet to see Arion heading out their start for the classic yacht race, and again as we headed back up to the finish . Long and skinny boats with double ends always look good to me!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Milo:

Exactly. "Fine" is the perfect word.

The CCA did not measure any girths so the ends became very full in an effort to pick up sailing length. CCA bows are not the prettiest of bows.

 

I love that R boat hull with so much equisite shape and then they contrast it with a very boxy cabin trunk. It really identifies the period.

 

Another type of boat that has really interesting overhangs are Sonder Boats which were quite popular in Germany and Scandinavian Countries for a brief period. The overhangs are quite long, but really low. You'd only have to drop the knuckle of the bow about 8-12 inches to immerse all that overhang. The transoms were also quite wide and close to the water. There was an article about the building of Bibelot II (A replica of a very successful Herreshoff Sonder boat Bibelot) which described planing through Camden Harbor. Hard to know if that's an exaggeration, but with that wide flat run, I imagine she'd be pretty fast off the wind. These boats were really scows with deep keels and big rigs. If I remember correctly, the class rules had a cost limit, which is certainly an unusual feature.

post-41417-0-07821400-1363888724_thumb.jpg

post-41417-0-48242100-1363888733_thumb.gif

post-41417-0-20270700-1363888751_thumb.jpg

post-41417-0-23736200-1363888763_thumb.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well,,,not really. Not "apparent".

The sheer spring MUST be a fucntion of the distance the sheer travels. In other words (I sure as hell can't think of the right ones) imagine taking a very long tape measure, putting one end on the bow and then running the tape right alonf the top of the cap rail all the way to the stern. I call this the "distance the sheer travels".

 

Now do this measurement on the SLIVER project.

Then do it on another 62'er but one with normal beam say 17.5' of beam.

Your sheer "length" of SLIVER will be far less than that of the beamier boat.

The more distance the sher travels the more spring it needs.

Skinny boats do not need much sheer spring. They end up looking exagerated.

A beamy boat with minimal sheer will appear to have a flat sheer.

 

The same rule applies to a given sheerline and how the spring should be distributed. But I'll save that for later.

I'm hungry.

 

I'm having a hard time with this, Bob. Please help me. Let's assume a planar sheer, for simplicity. Then both the skinny boat and the wide boat have a view angle at which the sheer lies in a plane. This viewpoint from abeam will be below the deck in both cases unless the boat has "reverse spring," which is weird. Move your eye up to deck level and the fat boat will show more spring than the skinny one.

 

As such it seems hard to make a skinny boat have spring, let alone an exaggerated one. Overhangs might give a similar aesthetic effect. Otherwise a canoe shape seems inevitable.

 

Edit: Maybe it's my definition of "spring" which is implicitly the angle under the deck at which the sheer is planar.

 

I notice this is the 300th in this thread, so no one will read it anyway.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok, so long as no one is reading this thread anymore I'll give your question a shot.

 

Planar sheers don't work with double enders. Period.

In order to keep a canoe stern sheer planar you need a lot of spring aft and you end up with a boat that looks like a mallard in heat.

I have said this many times but I always have a hard time saying it clearly:

The sheer spring in profile has to be proportionate to the distance the sheer is travelling in plan view.

So with a Perry type canoe stern for instance the plan view shows the sheer tucking in very dramatically in the last few statuions in order to maintain volume aft.

To keep that sheer planar I would have to really "swoop" or kink up the sheer in profile through that particular area. It just looks stupid.

 

Whereas, with a transom stern boat the sheer in plan view in both the bow and the stern is almost a straight line and sometimes is exactly a straight line.

This means the sheer spring can be evenely distributed down the hull flattening out slightly as it goes to the ends.

 

Or, think of a really fat 40' double ender. Really fat. If you measured the length of the actual sheer this 40'er sherline might be 48' ( I'm guessing). That's a lot of sheer length so this boat can use a lot of spring.

 

Now take a 40' very skinny, very transom sterned boat. This sheer length might be only 42' ( I'm guessing again). If you gave this skinny boat a lot of sheer spring it would look like a banana. The skinny boat gets far less sheer spring than does the fat double ender due to its shorter sheerline.

 

If you were in the Office kdh I'd pull down a coupe of models and you'd understand in seconds.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm still reading....

 

I understand the sheer length thing....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now