Sailbydate

Coolboats to admire

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5 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

But there are lots from the 50's  - that's as old as that schooner was when it got its first "new hull".

Now it's on its second "new hull" and I fully expect those glass boats will still be sailing when it's due for its third new hull.

That's a good point, but If you want to connect with an earlier age in a meaningful way you have no option but to have a wooden boat.

And if it's a question of a big restoration or a chainsaw and bonfire? Well, thank god for rich people! 

As an aside It's not that unusual for contemporary racing boats to keep the rig and deck with all the machinery while changing the hull and foils. 

As a further aside an architect had to explain to me that building is cheap - it's the stuff that makes it work that will kill you. 

 

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There is a great understanding here on CA about what boats are built of (and what that means),  that you don't find on other forums.

 

Wood or glass; it's either one or the other on most. Wooden boats are maligned with ignorant cliche's by glass owners that are tortured by a piece of teak on deck - and fiberglass boats are treated like a disease by wooden boat snobs who live by equally ignorant cliche's about 'frozen snot'. 

 

After living and sailing in a wooden boat mecca (Rockport Maine), I'm pretty ambivalent about what a boat is built out of. It's the design that makes a boat a classic, 100 years old and built of wood - or the first hull hot off the molds of the newest material. 

 

Then it takes decades - a century it looks like - before we get the full report on the materials used of a good design. Poor designs have either been composted or ground up and mixed with asphalt binder and turned into new roads. 

 

Wood is doing well!

As a material, it holds up, pieces are easily replaced, and it never goes out of style. Well designed wood, has proven to be immortal.

The weak point I 'hear' every spring when dozens and dozens of old wooden boats are launched, are the words, "Is she swellin' up?"

The docks of freshly launched wooden boats can sound like the Trevi Fountain in Rome. Pumps blasting left and right.

 I can tell you,...some don't, 'swell up' (I see it every spring). The owner gets the bad news, "We hit the seams three times, sorry...she's tired" Not the end of the world, write a check. This can, and does go on forever, with a loved design.

Wood isn't perfect, but it's a very, very good material to build a boat hull out of. 

wooden-boat-swellin-up-1-of-1-jpg.137642

I'm ribbed about that (swellin' up), at launch, when I look in the bilge. My boat looks like a wood boat (that was Alden's idea in 1961). After 57 years the hull is still strong. Fiberglass isn't perfect but it's a very, very good material to build a boat hull out of.

We're well into the second half of a century of glass boats, the second half should be interesting. Will well designed fiberglass hulls achieve immortality?

By the way, that Concordia above blew two pumps for a long time. The guys launching it - very experienced with wooden boats - started to get a little nervous. Finally, she took up.

They laughed about it, later, but I could see in their minds, the boat was serving early notice,....

 

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There's a really odd tick of boat-shaming that non-wooden boat owners sometimes employ, which is to make strangely aggressive observations about the amount of work necessary. "Oh, you wouldn't catch me doing that amount of work" and so on. It may be a self-justificatory attempt to exculpate their guilt for having a plain boat. By and large only other wooden boat people thank you for sharing your boat, and admire it honestly. 

Is it vanity to want to have a beautiful boat, or a selfless desire to make the world an even more beautiful place?

And no, I'm not using "beautiful" as a synonym for "wooden" here. 

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"After living and sailing in a wooden boat mecca (Rockport Maine), I'm pretty ambivalent about what a boat is built out of. It's the design that makes a boat a classic, 100 years old and built of wood - or the first hull hot off the molds of the newest material."

I agree, I have a 100 year old catboat getting ready to re-deck and it's as solid as my new "hot off the mold" sport boat. 

I see beauty in any well designed boat with lines that draw the eye and the heart

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18 minutes ago, Sail4beer said:

I see beauty in any well designed boat with lines that draw the eye and the heart

Nicely put beer. I would totally agree.

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hear, hear!

It's also what you do with it that matters.

Even a plain boat well sailed can be a thing of beauty. 

 

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Someone needs to offer a pedantic remark-I had the meaning of ambivalent driven in to me a while back, so I'll do it. Ambivalent does not mean "I don't really care about what material a boat is built of". It means "I care very much what material a boat is built of, and sometimes like wood and sometimes  . . . . . . ." i.e. closer to conflicted than easy going.

I'm with Sail4beer, and think there are great boats in almost any style. And I'm with you Kris, Alden Challengers and Caravelles are great fiberglass wooden boats:-)

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Otter was designed by Nathan Smith.  Beam is 7'2".  I gather the Sabb threatened to shake the boat to bits.....

Blakely1.thumb.jpg.9b74631309c1762bbc73956b8c116ae7.jpg

Blakely3.thumb.jpg.fc21cf90fd5db5aa1581891a5f5bf658.jpg

Blakely2.thumb.jpg.fb59bc09591f770fc09c2ed16f1e90ab.jpg

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1 hour ago, tad said:

Otter was designed by Nathan Smith.  Beam is 7'2".  I gather the Sabb threatened to shake the boat to bits.....

Blakely1.thumb.jpg.9b74631309c1762bbc73956b8c116ae7.jpg

Blakely3.thumb.jpg.fc21cf90fd5db5aa1581891a5f5bf658.jpg

Blakely2.thumb.jpg.fb59bc09591f770fc09c2ed16f1e90ab.jpg

Very cool, thanks for the clarification and added details.

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I like that boat. Unusual underbody...think I'd have gone with a long shallow  keel/skeg instead of the sailboat style keel and spade rudder. But I admire the out of the box thinking.

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I like the boat - reminds me a little (only a little) of Garden's Tlingit.

Curious that the house looks very Garden-esque in the photo but far less so in the drawings.

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Olaf, that link is extremely non-specific.

Can you narrow it down?

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Wow!

I'd like to tweak the bow profile a smidge but other than that it's close to perfection. Where is that boat? It has PNW written all over it.

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Herself is a version of Garden design #501, built by Don Mossman and launched in Sidney BC in 2002.   About 37' x 12', I took the picture above in Maple Bay a few years ago.

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We met them last week, live on Vancouver island.

Took him 11 years to build her.

Bill Garden designed her and advised during the build.

A total classic as far as we are concerned, looks like new.

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That's better - what a beaut. Really shows Gardens' artistry when such an essentially commonplace boat can be so special. I must have seen hundreds of those wooden west coat fishboats, both yacht versions and working boats but rarely one as good looking as that.

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In the case of Herself, the builder/owner makes the designer look pretty good.  Here's another version of the same design by a different builder.

15036160_10208992889793563_6066616410235376372_n.jpg.7f9cbc7aa43949343ee28d9ee992d0a5.jpg

 

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And a third (heavily modified) version of the same design.  Again making the designer look good.

serianna1.jpg.b795d1c6886520db482cfffa3d5dab17.jpg

 

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SemI:

Yes, that's the "stair case" we used on the CT54, 65 and 56. It was a hit so we used it on several models. I cannot take credit for the woodwork styles. Yard gets credit for that. I laid out the basic geometry. Details like that were in Taiwan at a time when labor cost was incidental. I was told over and over, "Don't worry about labor. Just draw what you want."

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007

This crabber went by my shack yesterday. I figure Garden design and LaClerq build. When not loaded like this it has a beautiful broad gold bootstripe.

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Here's one in the Friday Harbor Marina today:  Ginger, and her dinghy Rose.  Does anyone recognize this boat?  I like it a lot.  It has a woodstove.

 

Ginger 3.jpg

Ginger 2.jpg

Ginger 1.jpg

Rose 1.jpg

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1 hour ago, valis said:

Here's one in the Friday Harbor Marina today:  Ginger, and her dinghy Rose.  Does anyone recognize this boat?  I like it a lot.  It has a woodstove.

 

Rose 1.jpg

I like it too but they should have named the tender Mary Ann.  She's hot.

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Rose is cute but I like the classic fuel hog in the background better than Ginger, who seems a bit anorexic.

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I shared an anchorage with Ginger, last summer.

Inboard electric propulsion.  

The owner mentioned a sailing rig that he seldom uses as he gets around fine on batteries only.

The boat is tiny.

Steve

kJwQTJU.jpg

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SemiGinger is a Lake Union Dreamboat type but there are some odd details. It's certainly had some work done to it. I would prefer an unaltered version myself.

That is one sweet dink.

jeff 2005

 

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Mr. Perry, thank you for the lovely boats.  The name I was thinking of was Bill Gardener, who was the small craft curator of Mystic Seaport, and my mentor, similar to you and Bill Garden.  Anyway there can never be too many fine boats.  Mahalo.

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18 hours ago, By the lee said:

They should re-power that w/a saildrive.

The listing mentioned that it does have a saildrive. It was repowered from the Sabb to a Volvo, the saildrive is just in front of the rudder and engine in the cockpit.

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I wasn't sure what this Ocean Cruising 40 was, until I saw the OC logo on the cove stripe. Then I could see the Hinckley B40 resemblance. Subtle, resemblance. 

I was anchored just up Perry Creek from the boat.

 

Sitting in my cockpit, I could imagine Hank Hinckley 'fixing' his Dads (Henry) aging, no longer built(nearly?), B40, back in 1979.  "Lose the long keel with centerboard and attached rudder, punch the beam out a foot or so, lose the stupid mizzen and go cutter, punch the cabin up and out a bit, give her ample freeboard, voila!" 

 

He built 40 OC 40's, compared to 200 B40's. He shaved 9 seconds per mile off the best B40 PHRF.  It appears, the OC 40 sells for about 2/3rds of Dad,s older boats... :) 

 

35843817636_0599d26029_h.jpg

 

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Here is another nice looking powerboat, Bowler from Doug Hylan & Assoc. I have tucked it away for if and when I can't sail, but still want to be on the water.

26'6" X 8'2", trailerable, picnic, weekender for two, driven by a 60 hp OB in a well.

bowler1.thumb.png.f52d7dd38924a315320c99bbc4df4901.png

bowler_study_plans.pdf

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Isn't it funny we all seem to instantly like the same boats. You'd think if it were so universal, it'd be easy to quantify and everyone would be turning out lovely designs. Not so, though. What a mystery art is. 

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4 hours ago, Bull City said:

Here is another nice looking powerboat, Bowler from Doug Hylan & Assoc. I have tucked it away for if and when I can't sail, but still want to be on the water.

26'6" X 8'2", trailerable, picnic, weekender for two, driven by a 60 hp OB in a well.

bowler1.thumb.png.f52d7dd38924a315320c99bbc4df4901.png

bowler_study_plans.pdf

I'd like to see that with about a 4" top chop.

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5 hours ago, Bull City said:

Here is another nice looking powerboat, Bowler from Doug Hylan & Assoc. I have tucked it away for if and when I can't sail, but still want to be on the water.

26'6" X 8'2", trailerable, picnic, weekender for two, driven by a 60 hp OB in a well.

bowler1.thumb.png.f52d7dd38924a315320c99bbc4df4901.png

bowler_study_plans.pdf

Nice stink pot you got there. I like his work

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2 hours ago, kinardly said:

Isn't it funny we all seem to instantly like the same boats. You'd think if it were so universal, it'd be easy to quantify and everyone would be turning out lovely designs. Not so, though. What a mystery art is. 

But we are connoisseurs.

connoisseur.thumb.jpg.3069d4b1982a835c00fb079bddc51d22.jpg

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17 hours ago, Bull City said:

Here is another nice looking powerboat, Bowler from Doug Hylan & Assoc. I have tucked it away for if and when I can't sail, but still want to be on the water.

26'6" X 8'2", trailerable, picnic, weekender for two, driven by a 60 hp OB in a well.

bowler1.thumb.png.f52d7dd38924a315320c99bbc4df4901.png

bowler_study_plans.pdf

Nice - it's got lines similar to a Chesapeake Bay deadrise workboat - I like that! 

 

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A tiny bit of rake to the house sides and Jon's 4" chop to the top would have made a world of difference. But none the less, I like it.

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According to Doug Hylan, the "shelter" has 6'3" headroom, so perhaps some room for chopping.

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Easy to chop the top 3" but I'm 6'3" and I don't chop so easily. So often there is some silly pragmatic reason for a dimension. Reality sucks.

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17 hours ago, kinardly said:

Isn't it funny we all seem to instantly like the same boats. You'd think if it were so universal, it'd be easy to quantify and everyone would be turning out lovely designs. Not so, though. What a mystery art is. 

We don't all like the same boats. Most of us like most of the same boats, but even ones every likes, people say they would like it more if X or Y or Z were different. For example, that little motorboat; it's awfully cute... reminds me more of an old Elco than a Chesapeake Bay boat, but I'd like it more if the windshield were vertical, with a pronounced brow, and glassed around an octagonal instead of straight athwartship.

FB- Doug

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33 minutes ago, RKoch said:

Screw headroom...top chops look great.

 04e67b25c18d6dd512ca158d8ef94c12--mercur

So it's gonna go that way now?

about time!

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Along with what Doug said, there's also a big difference between "wow! I really like that" and "that's a boat I'd buy"

While I can certainly appreciate the beauty and grace of Hinkley B-40, a J/109 might meet more of my requirements...

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20 hours ago, Crash said:

Along with what Doug said, there's also a big difference between "wow! I really like that" and "that's a boat I'd buy"

While I can certainly appreciate the beauty and grace of Hinkley B-40, a J/109 might meet more of my requirements...

My point was why, when we all recognize a nice looking design, do we so often see boats on the water that fall well short in terms of looks. Somewhere between "I sure like the lines  of that boat" and "I'm going to draw up plans for a new boat" there seems to be a disconnect. 

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If interior volume is the prime consideration, buy a trawler. As a liveaboard role, sailboats make little sense. The purpose of a sailboat is the enjoyment of sailing, other roles are secondary.

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Yes, it should be about enjoying the sailing...but sailing a J/109 is quite as enjoyable as sailing a CCA style boat...yet has a multi cabin interior that meets the wife's requirements that a B40 can't.

Given enough available funds, I'd solve the problem by having Bob Design me a boat that does both well (looks and performance)...

Also, there are many looks I like...CCA, IOR, the Carbon Cutters, Frankie, Amati, even Will's 26 footer for Bob

 

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Hell, I never said I didn't find the J-109 good looking. Quite the contrary. Style isn't the determiner of beauty.

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2 hours ago, Presuming Ed said:

Because for many boats, how they look comes secondary to other requirements like internal volume.

That's not enough to explain some of what you see. Cheap construction is a factor. 

But for some things, bad design is the only thing to blame. 

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I've thoroughly enjoyed an ugly boat. It was just right for the time.

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love this Enderlein from 1947, found on Träbåtsakuten

DSC_0291.jpg

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On 7/13/2017 at 11:42 AM, Bob Perry said:

Easy to chop the top 3" but I'm 6'3" and I don't chop so easily. So often there is some silly pragmatic reason for a dimension. Reality sucks.

That top might have to be that tall, but does it really have to be that ugly?

Looks like it was built by a teenage carpenter's apprentice after his first week of work. Yes, he can now make a box.

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6 hours ago, Uncooperative Tom said:

That top might have to be that tall, but does it really have to be that ugly?

Looks like it was built by a teenage carpenter's apprentice after his first week of work. Yes, he can now make a box.

It's not a look that we're used to, but it really doesn't bother me. There are so many other nice things about the design. After all, it is a powerboat.

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On 7/13/2017 at 11:42 AM, Bob Perry said:

Easy to chop the top 3" but I'm 6'3" and I don't chop so easily. So often there is some silly pragmatic reason for a dimension. Reality sucks.

This discussion reminds me of this boat. The Matthew was designed by Colin Mudie as a reproduction of John Cabot's ship circa 1500. Mudie made it as authentic as he could, but...

We made an unscheduled visit to the site ... to find that the whole of the poop deck had been raised eight inches without reference and this was the end of any real effort towards authenticity. By the time she set off she had been fitted with completely non-authentic whipstaff steering, the ballast had been taken from inside the ship and added to the keel and the engine had been moved from or or less amidships (where the ship's hold would have carried the main loads) to right forward and a power windlass added to handle the mooring anchors. We were sympathetic to the reasons for these changes. The poop was lifted to accommodate the height of modern men and the ballast and machinery changes certainly improved the crew  accommodation and the steering was more direct than sailing by helm orders.Our sadness really lay in the dashing of hour hopes to find out more  about mediaeval sailing..  

Colin Mudie - Sailing Ships

 

The caption to this picture notes than on the original the poop deck would have been completely open, meaning I suppose, no fence.

 

Matthew.jpg

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8 minutes ago, SemiSalt said:

This discussion reminds me of this boat. The Matthew was designed by Colin Mudie as a reproduction of John Cabot's ship circa 1500. Mudie made it as authentic as he could, but...

We made an unscheduled visit to the site ... to find that the whole of the poop deck had been raised eight inches without reference and this was the end of any real effort towards authenticity. By the time she set off she had been fitted with completely non-authentic whipstaff steering, the ballast had been taken from inside the ship and added to the keel and the engine had been moved from or or less amidships (where the ship's hold would have carried the main loads) to right forward and a power windlass added to handle the mooring anchors. We were sympathetic to the reasons for these changes. The poop was lifted to accommodate the height of modern men and the ballast and machinery changes certainly improved the crew  accommodation and the steering was more direct than sailing by helm orders.Our sadness really lay in the dashing of hour hopes to find out more  about mediaeval sailing..  

Colin Mudie - Sailing Ships

 

The caption to this picture notes than on the original the poop deck would have been completely open, meaning I suppose, no fence.

 

Matthew.jpg

How close to the wind can this sail?  45deg?  60deg?

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9 minutes ago, MauiPunter said:

How close to the wind can this sail?  45deg?  60deg?

Pretty much not at all, I think. It was an era of "wait for the tide." Mudie is pretty interesting on old-time sailing ships. About this one, he noted that there were a few changes from 15th century practice that worked against windward sailing. This includes reduction of sail area and displacement. These ships had to be short and heavy because the hull was also the "foil" reducing leeway, and good forward speed was needed to make it work. 

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15 minutes ago, MauiPunter said:

How close to the wind can this sail?  45deg?  60deg?

I'd be amazed if it even made any distance to windward!

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2 hours ago, MauiPunter said:

How close to the wind can this sail?  45deg?  60deg?

On a good day?

89 degrees.

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A few days ago I was in Kotka, Finland, touring the vessels from the "Tall Ships Races 2017".  There were *lots* of cool boats to admire there.  

I like the contrast here, with the modern military runabout, the recent sailboat, and the older power boat, taken from the deck of the Finnish icebreaker "Tarmo" (built in 1907).  You may have seen a video posted in the Origami Boats thread of the Tarmo coming into Helsinki harbor, with the crowd on the ice greeting her (and running as the ice was breaking).  

kotka ships 1.jpg

 

The small wooden power boat in front of the tall ship "Kruzenshtern" is fairly typical here.  My cousin has a similar one that he has beautifully restored.

IMG_20170715_165555.jpg

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I like them all, but my favorite boats are from 50's and 60's. There is a enthusiastic following of K. Aage Nielsen boats in my harbor. Quite a few come through this boatyard.

Usually, when local fans talk Nielsen, they talk double enders. They don't like to hear this, but I'm not that big a fan of double enders. Sure they're fine and look good, they're just not my favorite design element. While they talk the virtues of their double enders, I'm imagining how their boat would look with a conventional stern,...

 

My favorite Nielsen boats are 'single enders'. Here's one: SAPHAEDRA. Nice boat. However, I find it heavy looking for a Nielsen boat. 

 

36042735065_d418818a93_h.jpg

 

This is more my style: SAYONARA. She's lower, sleeker, lighter looking. And this is an appealing stern to me. Nothing fancy, 50', fit just right.  

 

35871553222_17084be69d_h.jpg

 

My favorite part of this boat (and other Nielsen designs) is how the coach roof meets the cabin - low and shapely. I like his dog house details, wide decks. The nice simple elements that go unsung. SAYONARA is for sale for 200K. 

 

35871553272_8ea22b611b_h.jpg

 

 

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Kris,

No pics of Hound??

Headed your way the end of next week. Going to do the Eggemoggin Reach Regatta on a Brooklin custom, but bringing Sparky for cruising and accomodations.

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I like them myself even though I think mine looks like someone cut it a little short 

IMG_4884.JPG

IMG_4885.JPG

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18 minutes ago, Sail4beer said:

I like them myself even though I think mine looks like someone cut it a little short 

IMG_4884.JPG

IMG_4885.JPG

That might be a halfway decent looking boat if you lost the naff stern rail.

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23 minutes ago, monsoon said:

That might be a halfway decent looking boat if you lost the naff stern rail.

That crosses my mind frequently.

i have that sawzall around here somewhere

I already lost the stanchions and lifelines for now to let the original design breathe a little 

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3 hours ago, kdh said:

I miss the tight little asses on those old boats.

 

Not all little asses are cute.

5360759_20150824053610149_1_XLARGE.jpg&w

Brit Chance 29-er. The narrow stern really compromises the cockpit, especially by causing the helmsman to be inboard where he can't see as well. 

Even so, I'd love to sail this boat. She's a bit long-legged for our channel, though.

 

5360759_20150824055333846_1_XLARGE.jpg&w

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1972/Dedood-Boat-Yard-Chance-29-One-Tonner-2877490/Castine/ME/United-States#.WXEDyYgrKUk

 

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Your boat's ass looks a lot narrower at 45 degrees.

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1 hour ago, Rasputin22 said:

Image result for comanche sailboat

 

 

As an old friend said "It's not that deep, but it's wide"

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3 hours ago, SemiSalt said:

Not all little asses are cute.

5360759_20150824053610149_1_XLARGE.jpg&w

Brit Chance 29-er. The narrow stern really compromises the cockpit, especially by causing the helmsman to be inboard where he can't see as well. 

Even so, I'd love to sail this boat. She's a bit long-legged for our channel, though.

Chance will probably be remembered for asses that didn't quite do it. ;)

Skinny asses can look very zoomy even if they don't work all that well.

 

Carrot.jpg

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8 hours ago, Cruisin Loser said:

Kris,

No pics of Hound??

Headed your way the end of next week. Going to do the Eggemoggin Reach Regatta on a Brooklin custom, but bringing Sparky for cruising and accomodations.

I'll post the one I have, which was shot on my phone from too low an angle. Hound is a lovely boat, especially when shot in the Fox Island Thoroughfare, her summer home. For those that don't know her, she is  another beautiful K. Aage Nielson , built at Abetting & Rasmussen.

 

597145cf2ccf2_Hound2016.thumb.jpg.3bc46728c96bdc5b33b27f54ef9a6f5a.jpg.

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1 hour ago, SloopJonB said:

Chance will probably be remembered for asses that didn't quite do it. ;)

Skinny asses can look very zoomy even if they don't work all that well.

 

Carrot.jpg

 

I love pointy butts.

 

 

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On July 18, 2017 at 2:29 PM, MauiPunter said:

How close to the wind can this sail?  45deg?  60deg?

182 degrees.

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4 hours ago, MauiPunter said:
6 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

Carrot.jpg

 

I love pointy butts.

For some reason, the word "ass-carrot" comes to mind.

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