• Announcements

    • Zapata

      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  
Sailbydate

Coolboats to admire

Recommended Posts

4 minutes ago, MauiPunter said:

Rumor is he hid livestock below in the bow.

Yeah, but the criticism was claiming that she was over-ballasted and would necessarily float deep when trimmed.  Thus Bob had to add negative ballast.  It's kind of like those airplane design reviews, where the comment on the blueprint says "Add lightness here."

All stupidity aside, it's a beautiful boat.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Snaggletooth said:

I tende to halve a sweatey red face.

Now you've spoiled everything--I'd a been looking for the headphones!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Snaggletooth said:

I tende to halve a sweatey red face.

Are you saying you look like Proa?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, SloopJonB said:
15 hours ago, Snaggletooth said:

I tende to halve a sweatey red face.

Are you saying you look like Proa?

Snags is a Ninja Wordsmith .....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 hours ago, valis said:

Bob, there you go spoiling everybody's fun!  On her lines?  Riiiight.  I bet you stuffed the cabin with helium balloons.

No, the tides out and the boat's sitting in the mud. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, Rasputin22 said:

the 19th? That was International Talk Like a Pirate Day I think.

You arrrrgh right

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Snaggletooth said:

What parte our you caulleng 'the approche"

Full ahead.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 21.9.2017 at 0:26 PM, Whinging Pom said:

IIRC the 'domed' companionway was invented by Cees Van de Stadt.

1963 Excalibur

1.jpg

guess it was E.G. van de Stadt...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1941 John Alden cutter OWL. Call me crazy, but as this was probably designed in the late 30's, I think the design was ahead of it's time(at that time).

36580797853_c86f0998b3_h.jpg

The tiny ports date it but the lines are timeless. 

It's been kept pretty original by the looks of the cockpit. Edson wheel; those things last longer than they ought to! Look at the winches. 

36994809450_87e9eeed7b_h.jpg

A true cutter, she goes right along in a moderate breeze. Does it look 80 years old to you? 

36580797713_042c7de0a7_h.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lovely boat. The pram hood is a bit criminal though. Soon get rid of it. Hull needs fairing as well - that'll take a bit longer. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, RKoch said:

The removeable stanchions are interesting. 

Yes and did you notice how the life lines go through a turning block aft? The removable stanchions were pretty common through the 50 or 60's, I think. My boat has similar bronze bases with a dove-tail pocket that the stanchion bases slide into. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Kris Cringle said:

1941 John Alden cutter OWL. Call me crazy, but as this was probably designed in the late 30's, I think the design was ahead of it's time(at that time).

36580797853_c86f0998b3_h.jpg

The tiny ports date it but the lines are timeless. 

It's been kept pretty original by the looks of the cockpit. Edson wheel; those things last longer than they ought to! Look at the winches. 

36994809450_87e9eeed7b_h.jpg

A true cutter, she goes right along in a moderate breeze. Does it look 80 years old to you? 

36580797713_042c7de0a7_h.jpg

Chris, do you have a crank for the outhual?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Bryanjb said:

Chris, do you have a crank for the outhual?

The crank is on the end of the boom. Simple screw mechanism....bronze so it's easy to maintain. There will be a removeable handle forward for the roller reefing worm gear. This is all CCA era hardware...right up in to the 60s. 

Friend of mine bought an old boom to hang over the bar he owned. He didn't know what it was, except it came off a boat. I explained what it was, what all the hardware did, and estimated the boat size.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, RKoch said:

The crank is on the end of the boom. Simple screw mechanism....bronze so it's easy to maintain. There will be a removeable handle forward for the roller reefing worm gear. This is all CCA era hardware...right up in to the 60s. 

Friend of mine bought an old boom to hang over the bar he owned. He didn't know what it was, except it came off a boat. I explained what it was, what all the hardware did, and estimated the boat size.

Pretty standard 60's hardware. The bronze has been great in that it's easy to have material added in wear areas(had the bales built up). The outhaul made it an easy decision to go with a loose footed main. I left the sail track on for when the fiberglass hull goes all floppy, the spruce boom, which is likely to last forever, can go over a bar. :) 

37005906750_2d0c85d5c0_b.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Kris Cringle said:

Pretty standard 60's hardware. The bronze has been great in that it's easy to have material added in wear areas(had the bales built up). The outhaul made it an easy decision to go with a loose footed main. I left the sail track on for when the fiberglass hull goes all floppy, the spruce boom, which is likely to last forever, can go over a bar. :) 

37005906750_2d0c85d5c0_b.jpg

Very cool, thank you for sharing that detail.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My brother's Vanguard has that boom and it works pretty well. No need for a vang with that weight. Has a gear on either side of the mast so you don't have to tack to get the reef set.

That Alden is beautiful and does looks its age from the cockpit setup but in better shape than my 70 yo cutter for now.

I just installed a 24"bronze Edson spoke wheel on mine to replace the oversized 28" wheel that replaced the original tiller setup. I was going to go back to the tiller but couldn't find a good setup for the linkage controls and compass this year.

The tiller is ready to install anytime...my 5' emergency teak recurved tiller, that is

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

On mizzens from up the thread...

I'm a long time ketch and yawl type, having grown up on a Block Island 40 and inherited Red Herring.  Not to mention icons like Stormvogel, Ticonderoga, and Windward Passage! Who wouldn't want a ketch! Mizzens are really useful if you know how to use them. They are not very useful on boats that race windward leeward courses, but on races with reaches, they are pretty good, and for cruising and sailing off angles not featured on race courses.  I find them really useful for all sorts of boat handling. You don't learn this stuff in sloop school. 

For starters, they will keep you head the wind. Sheet the sucker in hard and pin the helm on center and Herring will back straight down wind while I get the main up or down.   If we are sailing off the mooring, I can determine which tack we will fall off on by backing the mizzen the other way. All cool sailor stuff.  Once you are reaching, that ability to hang up extra laundry is amusing and the extra low area can push you along and add onto the miles with very little extra stress.  I can get bored, so having lots to fiddle and fuss with is part of the fun. These sails are relatively small and light and managing them is not a a chore.

The  biggest advantage is maintaining weather helm when really shortened down. As sails are reefed their center of pressures move forward. The same is true of smaller jibs. So when it really gets ugly, you find that your boat wants to fall off to leeward in the gusts as you ease the main. This is deadly bad. You can sink if you are knocked over on you beam ends. You can solve this by having a mizzen. On Red Herring we never shorten the mizzen, I have a cascading mizzen sheet with what used to be called a vernier.  It is double ended. There is a two to one for coarse trimming, which has a three to one on the opposite tail. This gives me a six to one sheet that I can hand hold if I want. So I can play the mizzen sheet and steer at the same time.  Up wind in a breeze, the mizzen is flattened as much as I can with down haul and vang. If I think I have too much helm or need to bear away, I can quickly ease the mizzen without it getting full and twisted.  If we are dealing with big puffs and have to ease the main, I can trim the mizzen to keep her head up.  

And that is before you consider going  "Jib and Jigger" which may be one of the most salutary sailing arrangements for short handed sailing in heavy air. As the name implies, you set a slightly bigger jib than you might otherwise, and the mizzen. Leave the mainsail on the boom. A very nice low pressure sail can be had when others might have a long wet day.  It isn't unprecedented to leave the mizzen up when at anchor..... I have kept one set for a week at a time, so it just sort of gets the job done.

The biggest thing wrong with yawl and ketch rigs, other than the fact that mizzens are pretty useless for sausage racing, is the cost on the second mast and the rigging and sails that go with it.  I recall Olin Stephens saying that Dorade was happiest with something like 7 Degees of rudder. That makes sense to me as it makes her keel and underbody into an assymetrical (very low aspect ratio) wing. This is true of any boat with an attached rudder and one reason why some weather helm is faster than no weather helm. 

SHC

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/23/2017 at 0:09 PM, Steve Clark said:

On mizzens from up the thread...

I'm a long time ketch and yawl type, having grown up on a Block Island 40 and inherited Red Herring.  Not to mention icons like Stormvogel, Ticonderoga, and Windward Passage! Who wouldn't want a ketch! Mizzens are really useful if you know how to use them. They are not very useful on boats that race windward leeward courses, but on races with reaches, they are pretty good, and for cruising and sailing off angles not featured on race courses.  I find them really useful for all sorts of boat handling. You don't learn this stuff in sloop school. 

For starters, they will keep you head the wind. Sheet the sucker in hard and pin the helm on center and Herring will back straight down wind while I get the main up or down.   If we are sailing off the mooring, I can determine which tack we will fall off on by backing the mizzen the other way. All cool sailor stuff.  Once you are reaching, that ability to hang up extra laundry is amusing and the extra low area can push you along and add onto the miles with very little extra stress.  I can get bored, so having lots to fiddle and fuss with is part of the fun. These sails are relatively small and light and managing them is not a a chore.

The  biggest advantage is maintaining weather helm when really shortened down. As sails are reefed their center of pressures move forward. The same is true of smaller jibs. So when it really gets ugly, you find that your boat wants to fall off to leeward in the gusts as you ease the main. This is deadly bad. You can sink if you are knocked over on you beam ends. You can solve this by having a mizzen. On Red Herring we never shorten the mizzen, I have a cascading mizzen sheet with what used to be called a vernier.  It is double ended. There is a two to one for coarse trimming, which has a three to one on the opposite tail. This gives me a six to one sheet that I can hand hold if I want. So I can play the mizzen sheet and steer at the same time.  Up wind in a breeze, the mizzen is flattened as much as I can with down haul and vang. If I think I have too much helm or need to bear away, I can quickly ease the mizzen without it getting full and twisted.  If we are dealing with big puffs and have to ease the main, I can trim the mizzen to keep her head up.  

And that is before you consider going  "Jib and Jigger" which may be one of the most salutary sailing arrangements for short handed sailing in heavy air. As the name implies, you set a slightly bigger jib than you might otherwise, and the mizzen. Leave the mainsail on the boom. A very nice low pressure sail can be had when others might have a long wet day.  It isn't unprecedented to leave the mizzen up when at anchor..... I have kept one set for a week at a time, so it just sort of gets the job done.

The biggest thing wrong with yawl and ketch rigs, other than the fact that mizzens are pretty useless for sausage racing, is the cost on the second mast and the rigging and sails that go with it.  I recall Olin Stephens saying that Dorade was happiest with something like 7 Degees of rudder. That makes sense to me as it makes her keel and underbody into an assymetrical (very low aspect ratio) wing. This is true of any boat with an attached rudder and one reason why some weather helm is faster than no weather helm. 

SHC

 

 

You don't hear this stuff much anymore. Thanks! :) Using a yawl rig to best advantage has become a lost art. We know the rig is outdated in speed - as is pretty much everything else on a sailboat that was designed in the CCA era - but any decent sailor can trim a mizzen to advantage, even in some cases (reefed main for one), to windward.

Does this mizzen look back winded?

36624404693_c7f686688e_b.jpg

I'm having a blast with my new mizzen. I didn't expect much over the old one(I tended to think, 'it's a mizzen,...') but have been surprised. Having used it yesterday, jib and jigger, in light air, I was impressed. I was pointing a bit higher and going faster. Yeah, small sail area in light air is uber slow! But I could see the difference. 

They are fun to play with, heaving to and what not. 

37127731425_42c166d637_h.jpg

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, Kris Cringle said:

You don't hear this stuff much anymore. Thanks! :) Using a yawl rig to best advantage has become a lost art. We know the rig is outdated in speed - as is pretty much everything else on a sailboat that was designed in the CCA era - but any decent sailor can trim a mizzen to advantage, even in some cases (reefed main for one), to windward.

Does this mizzen look back winded?

36624404693_c7f686688e_b.jpg

I'm having a blast with my new mizzen. I didn't expect much over the old one(I tended to think, 'it's a mizzen,...') but have been surprised. Having used it yesterday, jib and jigger, in light air, I was impressed. I was pointing a bit higher and going faster. Yeah, small sail area in light air is uber slow! But I could see the difference. 

They are fun to play with, heaving to and what not. 

37127731425_42c166d637_h.jpg

 

 

KC, nice flat mizzen...sailmaker did a good job. Who made it?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
40 minutes ago, RKoch said:

KC, nice flat mizzen...sailmaker did a good job. Who made it?

Doug Pope of Pope Sails in Rockland Maine. He's a local guy and loft and has made all my boats sails over the years(and sail covers). He's very good. He had made 2 other mizzens for the same design and learned (from a previous mizzen), to make these mizzens flatter. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Back when I purchased TIOGA (IV) she was a masthead sloop.

I reinstalled her mizzenmast and returned her to being a yawl.

She looked much better as a yawl and we were able to use the mizzen for all sorts of useful tasks.

D9198BDD-5F2A-4D4C-AFD3-4F6CD01598EA.jpeg

7E419F28-BDA4-4663-830B-C94B8D2BC256.jpeg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, kimbottles said:

Back when I purchased TIOGA (IV) she was a masthead sloop.

I reinstalled her mizzenmast and returned her to being a yawl.

She looked much better as a yawl and we were able to use the mizzen for all sorts of useful tasks.

D9198BDD-5F2A-4D4C-AFD3-4F6CD01598EA.jpeg

7E419F28-BDA4-4663-830B-C94B8D2BC256.jpeg

That's gorgeous.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

K. Aage Nielsen 1954, built in Italy 50’x12’x 6’ board up, 9’ board down.

Double planked Mahogany over Cedar on oak frames, Bronze fastened and strapped.

She is a beauty for sure. Fun ownership for 8 years. Our two sons grew up sailing on her.

I sold her back to the two sons of the previous owner I bought her from. They bring her over for a visit once in a while.

(FL is much faster, easier to handle and easier to take care of......)

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was thinking you are a hard man to please Kim.

Not easily satisfied anyway. ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

I was thinking you are a hard man to please Kim.

Not easily satisfied anyway. ;)

What do you mean Jon?

I am an easy going laid back kind of guy.

(Well I have been easy going ever since I sold my company and retired.)

Fortunately FL has cured me of my serial sailboat ownership hobby. She is a keeper.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I simply can't imagine owning a boat like that Tioga and ever getting a "new boat" itch.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, olaf hart said:

Boats like Tioga own you ...

Yes, but it was a very pleasant servitude. I learned a lot from that gal, she was my first big boat.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Kirwan has been sold and is thus out of the shed for the first time in years. Keel is off (for transport) in these photos:

 

IMG_0086.JPG

IMG-0085.JPG

IMG-0087 (1).JPG

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On September 23, 2017 at 0:09 PM, Steve Clark said:

On mizzens from up the thread...

I'm a long time ketch and yawl type, having grown up on a Block Island 40 and inherited Red Herring.  Not to mention icons like Stormvogel, Ticonderoga, and Windward Passage! Who wouldn't want a ketch! Mizzens are really useful if you know how to use them. They are not very useful on boats that race windward leeward courses, but on races with reaches, they are pretty good, and for cruising and sailing off angles not featured on race courses.  I find them really useful for all sorts of boat handling. You don't learn this stuff in sloop school. 

For starters, they will keep you head the wind. Sheet the sucker in hard and pin the helm on center and Herring will back straight down wind while I get the main up or down.   If we are sailing off the mooring, I can determine which tack we will fall off on by backing the mizzen the other way. All cool sailor stuff.  Once you are reaching, that ability to hang up extra laundry is amusing and the extra low area can push you along and add onto the miles with very little extra stress.  I can get bored, so having lots to fiddle and fuss with is part of the fun. These sails are relatively small and light and managing them is not a a chore.

The  biggest advantage is maintaining weather helm when really shortened down. As sails are reefed their center of pressures move forward. The same is true of smaller jibs. So when it really gets ugly, you find that your boat wants to fall off to leeward in the gusts as you ease the main. This is deadly bad. You can sink if you are knocked over on you beam ends. You can solve this by having a mizzen. On Red Herring we never shorten the mizzen, I have a cascading mizzen sheet with what used to be called a vernier.  It is double ended. There is a two to one for coarse trimming, which has a three to one on the opposite tail. This gives me a six to one sheet that I can hand hold if I want. So I can play the mizzen sheet and steer at the same time.  Up wind in a breeze, the mizzen is flattened as much as I can with down haul and vang. If I think I have too much helm or need to bear away, I can quickly ease the mizzen without it getting full and twisted.  If we are dealing with big puffs and have to ease the main, I can trim the mizzen to keep her head up.  

And that is before you consider going  "Jib and Jigger" which may be one of the most salutary sailing arrangements for short handed sailing in heavy air. As the name implies, you set a slightly bigger jib than you might otherwise, and the mizzen. Leave the mainsail on the boom. A very nice low pressure sail can be had when others might have a long wet day.  It isn't unprecedented to leave the mizzen up when at anchor..... I have kept one set for a week at a time, so it just sort of gets the job done.

The biggest thing wrong with yawl and ketch rigs, other than the fact that mizzens are pretty useless for sausage racing, is the cost on the second mast and the rigging and sails that go with it.  I recall Olin Stephens saying that Dorade was happiest with something like 7 Degees of rudder. That makes sense to me as it makes her keel and underbody into an assymetrical (very low aspect ratio) wing. This is true of any boat with an attached rudder and one reason why some weather helm is faster than no weather helm. 

SHC

 

 

Yeah thanks as well this is a great summary. Definitely a lot of cool things you can do with a ketch!

image.thumb.jpeg.93fe094384bb187484596a8e93de6bce.jpeg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nice photo of Beowolf.

Funny you should put it up.

We were just visiting with Steve and Linda in Newport.

Steve took the attached photo of Red Herring's new sails, with very sexy square top mizzen.

I can't square head the main without doing something strange with the fixed back stay, like split it into two, which I am pretty much unwilling to do. The masthead mizzen assymetrical has to wait for a modification of the mizzen forestays. They need to be moved aft and I have to make it possible to slack the leeward stay so the sail can be sheeted. Chain plates are there, just not the cables and tackles.

There is also a Solent we can set inside the head stay.   So we have quite a lot of things to keep boredom at bay. 

red hering resizes.psd

SHC

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, Uncooperative Tom said:

Mast on a motorboat but I like Nereus anyway. From Tad Roberts' FB

22007603_1928202147503053_70107053136501

There's a lot of those around here. The mast is there to support the outriggers, the boom is for lifting stuff. Some interesting arrangements out there.

dH0hVrO.jpg

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Steve Clark said:

Nice photo of Beowolf.

Funny you should put it up.

We were just visiting with Steve and Linda in Newport.

Steve took the attached photo of Red Herring's new sails, with very sexy square top mizzen.

I can't square head the main without doing something strange with the fixed back stay, like split it into two, which I am pretty much unwilling to do. The masthead mizzen assymetrical has to wait for a modification of the mizzen forestays. They need to be moved aft and I have to make it possible to slack the leeward stay so the sail can be sheeted. Chain plates are there, just not the cables and tackles.

There is also a Solent we can set inside the head stay.   So we have quite a lot of things to keep boredom at bay. 

red hering resizes.psd

SHC

Playing with lots of sails can be fun.

Several decades ago, I was a member of the Great Lakes Naval Training Center Sailing Club. Rather a snobby bunch as most of them were draftees who had decided to stay in, not the same sort of snobbery as you generally find in yachtyer sailing clubs. Anyway they had an odd collection of boats including a 40-ish foot steel ketch. Absolutely bare inside, it was a sail & rope warehouse. It was actually a nicely shaped boat and sailed well, although you had to be careful aboard because not only did it not have lifelines, it had pad eyes welded to the deck almost everywhere (the Navy had then, probably still has nowadays, a large number of under-employed welders).

It has a wide selection of jibs and staysails and mizzen staysails, including some ballooners. Fun to drag out a sail, see where it might fit, hoist it and play with trim. Back in those days, it was perfectly normal to find relatively new miter-cut Egyptian cotton sails in the mix. I wish I had some photos.

I mostly remember that place for the all-night boiler training drills, and sailing a Finn on Lake Michigan (brrrr).

FB- Doug

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

On 9/24/2017 at 5:33 PM, Kris Cringle said:

You don't hear this stuff much anymore. Thanks! :) Using a yawl rig to best advantage has become a lost art. We know the rig is outdated in speed - as is pretty much everything else on a sailboat that was designed in the CCA era - but any decent sailor can trim a mizzen to advantage, even in some cases (reefed main for one), to windward.

Does this mizzen look back winded?

36624404693_c7f686688e_b.jpg

I'm having a blast with my new mizzen. I didn't expect much over the old one(I tended to think, 'it's a mizzen,...') but have been surprised. Having used it yesterday, jib and jigger, in light air, I was impressed. I was pointing a bit higher and going faster. Yeah, small sail area in light air is uber slow! But I could see the difference. 

They are fun to play with, heaving to and what not. 

37127731425_42c166d637_h.jpg

 

 

There's a slight wrinkle in your mainsail. Right near the lazy jack. If you could go ahead and fix that it would help my OCD a lot.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Uncooperative Tom said:

 

There's a slight wrinkle in your mainsail. Right near the lazy jack. If you could go ahead and fix that it would help my OCD a lot.

Ha! That main, 3 seasons ago new, nearly had me quit sailing. Full battens, loose footed, 18' foot, I could NOT tame it. And I had to. I had new sail covers made and, although the covers are full, the main would not fit inside unless it was flaked, well. That task, was freaking impossible! 

 

Part of it was the new dacron. But I think most of was due to my ineptness. I fought it and fought it. Even in the second season, I was at my wits end. I'd wrestle it like  a greased hog, cinching it down, only to get most of the aft fasteners on the cover. The Sunbrella was bar tight! 

This season, I decided to start from scratch and out-think it. I read and googled. There really isn't good info on taming a new mainsail like this one. Here's what worked for me: 

Loosen the lazy jacks a little so the sail has room to shuffle around. You have to get the flakes - at the mast - in order-period, either during the douse(best), or afterward. Then you work from the top and from the bottom, roughly lining the flakes up at the leech. The lazy jacks just form a cradle for roughly dividing the sail into slabs. Don't work it, just roughly. THEN you tie with long sail ties. Not tight! More like form equal hoops with the ties that contain the rough flakes. 

Then you retract the lazy jacks back to the mast. The main will slough off one side or the other but remains as a package in the sail tie 'hoops'. 

Then you shift it onto the boom, put your hands between the folds and make them sort of equal, which balances the weight, push the flakes down around the boom, as you pull the slip knots on the ties, and draw them around the flakes and boom, not tight. You're not fighting it anymore. 

It's surprising how much faster this process is, when you stop fighting the sail. Plus it has softened, a bit. 

36680131943_8fd1549ac2_h.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Mr. Irons… and able-bodied sea dog...

jdHR17n.jpg

Both on water and land.... restoration seems to be Jeremy’s thang…. Good on him!

(Featured in Vanity Fair Oct 2017)

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What a great photo! I wonder if we could convince Dylan to do a few vids with Jeremy. Can you imagine the banter as the two of them sail an inland drainage ditch in GB farm country? 

Irons would jump at the chance but I guess he'd have to leave his dog at home. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎9‎/‎24‎/‎2017 at 4:33 PM, Kris Cringle said:

You don't hear this stuff much anymore. Thanks! :) Using a yawl rig to best advantage has become a lost art. We know the rig is outdated in speed - as is pretty much everything else on a sailboat that was designed in the CCA era - but any decent sailor can trim a mizzen to advantage, even in some cases (reefed main for one), to windward.

Does this mizzen look back winded?

36624404693_c7f686688e_b.jpg

I'm having a blast with my new mizzen. I didn't expect much over the old one(I tended to think, 'it's a mizzen,...') but have been surprised. Having used it yesterday, jib and jigger, in light air, I was impressed. I was pointing a bit higher and going faster. Yeah, small sail area in light air is uber slow! But I could see the difference. 

They are fun to play with, heaving to and what not. 

 

 

 

Is that Katrinka?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/16/2017 at 4:05 PM, valis said:

No offense meant, but to my eye that hump just looks wrong.  On either boat.  Not my cup of tea, I suppose...

Besides not being all that "old geezer" friendly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, Cruisin Loser said:

Is that Katrinka?

I don't know. I shot that a few years ago. I just remember she was was very close hauled sailing out of Penobscot Bay, mizzen and all. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Uncooperative Tom said:

Hmm... Search for the name Katrinka with that sail number and you find this, among other things.

katrinka-1218.jpg

Yup, that's her. I did have another shot. What's the boat design? 

23536539448_a1b8fee620_b.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

She's a Bill Tripp custom, 48', I think. I used to race against her in the early 1970's.

She has an interesting swinging helm pedestal, it can be unpinned and swung to port or starboard, in the pic above it seems to be swung to leeward.

I think she had a major rebuild in Maine a couple of years ago.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think that either is X-TOUCHE or a near sistership. KATRINKA does ring a bell.  Bill Tripp design that was the boat to beat in the Great Lakes when I was a kid. I even drew my own version of it along with tacking wheel. It was one of those boats that really caught my attention. Beautiful boat.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Bob Perry said:

Rasper:

I think X-TOUCHE was an alu boat. Maybe Abeking/Rasmussen.

X-Touche was an AR but I think she was a composite bronze keel, floors and centerboard case with laminated frames. She showed up not long after I had sailed to the Islands and made St John my homeport. She did have the airplane style 'pendular pedestal' where the wheel can be handed off to either side like on old aircraft. Sort off a 'poor mans' dual controls. I got to sail on here a couple of times and could still win races in the Caribbean circuit. She went up on the rocks on the NW side of Great Cruz Bay in a near miss hurricane and it didn't take long for her hulk to get reduced to just the bronze backbone. I would often snorkel the wreck and was able to see just how she was built in a sort of 'cutaway' provided by the slow removal of her topsides and interior. I got a few nice examples of custom hardware a year of so after the wreck but one day was having a go at the fancy helm unit and the owner pulled up in a dinghy and gave me some shit about that. I told him to get in the water and help me get the last surviving piece of the boat off and he could have it. I was just upset to see the binnacle and helm sticking out of the water to remind me of the loss of the first ocean racer I ever fell in love with and to my surprise he did join me and I think the hardware ended up in a St John restaurant. 

William H. Tripp Jr.
1920-1971
 
A native of Long Island, New York, Bill Tripp began as designer in the office of Phillip Rhodes.
After service during World War II, he joined Sparkman & Stevens. In 1952 he started his own practice. In 1957, Tripp’s 'Touche', a 48-foot flush-deck sloop, built by Abeking and Rasmussen in Germany, compiled a good race record and gave its young designer a boost in stature. His boats were then built of wood, but the allure of fiberglass soon drew his attention. Tripp conducted his own experiments with the new material and ultimately became a pioneer designer of the era.
Among his many successful designs for production yachts are the Block Island 40, and the Hinckley Bermuda 40.

Bob, this may be the aluminum Tripp by A&R. Originally AVENIR, she was a sistership to ONDINE II.

4106699_2_20121016063754_1_0.jpg&w=924&h=693&t=1367242006000

4106699_2_20121016063754_0_0.jpg&w=924&h=693&t=1367242006000

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's Pittwater all right, probably hasn't changed as much in 60 years as the rest of the Sydney area....

Sailing a Tartan 30 has really turned me on to S&S boats, this one is much prettier than the Tartan though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, olaf hart said:

It's Pittwater all right, probably hasn't changed as much in 60 years as the rest of the Sydney area....

Sailing a Tartan 30 has really turned me on to S&S boats, this one is much prettier than the Tartan though.

Lovely boat. Who needs windows. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

PIERA, a lovely Italian name for a girl (https://forvo.com/word/piera/), and well fitting on a beautiful boat. I saw her from my mooring and took a row around this 1955 Rhodes design, yesterday afternoon. 

37426793261_6d37eed310_h.jpg

It's not easy for a classic boat to stick out in my harbor, but she caught my eye from afar. I usually find pre 60's sailboat design a little dated for my taste yet PIERA, is timeless. 

37426793321_e14d310d13_h.jpg

The most beautiful aspect of classic sailboats like this is that they are so small! 45' of 1955 LOA low freeboard and graceful sheer, looks like 35' of contemporary cruising sailboat. 

37396164822_613dbfc2a7_h.jpg

I had to row close and stand up in the dinghy to get a sense of the on deck feel, on PIERA. Nice, very nice. 

36717241124_4c1b6c5b9e_h.jpg

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Beautiful boat but a house of pain. I see vertical cockpit coaming boards that are attractively low. Meaning, wrong angle and height for any kind of back support. Also far too shallow to be of any use at all if I put a cushion under my scrawny ass, which I do if racers can tolerate the enormous weight of such a luxury. Nice toe rail. If some racer gets the idea that having my skinny legs hanging over the side is really going to make us go THAT much faster, that would do a good job of making my lower legs go numb. Even the standard catboat jib trimmer spot doesn't have enough angle to be a good backrest.

But this thread is about admiration and I admire that the cockpit is at least long enough for a nap.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, Kris Cringle said:

PIERA, a lovely Italian name for a girl (https://forvo.com/word/piera/), and well fitting on a beautiful boat. I saw her from my mooring and took a row around this 1955 Rhodes design, yesterday afternoon. 

37426793261_6d37eed310_h.jpg

It's not easy for a classic boat to stick out in my harbor, but she caught my eye from afar. I usually find pre 60's sailboat design a little dated for my taste yet PIERA, is timeless. 

37426793321_e14d310d13_h.jpg

The most beautiful aspect of classic sailboats like this is that they are so small! 45' of 1955 LOA low freeboard and graceful sheer, looks like 35' of contemporary cruising sailboat. 

37396164822_613dbfc2a7_h.jpg

I had to row close and stand up in the dinghy to get a sense of the on deck feel, on PIERA. Nice, very nice. 

36717241124_4c1b6c5b9e_h.jpg

 

A beauty for sure. You're right in that she is very very similar to the mass of 1940s ~ 1950s boat designs, but with slightly exaggerated proportions. Very elegant-looking.

Tom is right that it doesn't look like a comfortable boat to sail. At least the cockpit seats are a bit wider than some. The "rumble seat" back rest looks like an effort towards comfort. More ventilators than average too, a good thing

FB- Doug

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Honest critiques. There is some angle to the coamings, you can see the shadow created by the angle in the coaming to house connection in this crop. But agreed, the angle may be marginal. 

37397156732_4cb6be8fd8_h.jpg

I laughed out loud on the 'rumble seat'. I couldn't figure that out and at first thought it was a deck storage box (a much better idea). But I could see the emergency tiller deck plate just aft of the high coaming. I don't think Rhodes put that there, what's the sense? Many owners see themselves behind the wheel and maybe somebody thought they would lean on that?

I notice there are too many fasteners and plugs at the rumble seat/coaming connection, like it's an afterthought. Look closely, I think I see where the original cockpit coaming was mounted, aft.

The boom gallows are the only thing keeping it from splitting. I'd get rid of the 'rumble seat'. An aft deck is useful and I'd want to get to it and the storage hatch. Decks are nice on PIERA but maybe not as wide as most boats of the era. She's little more than 11' wide at 45' long. 

I loved the extra dorade boxes and cowl vents. They knew the value of those, despite the cost. The smaller aft one (3") is an addition. Then some dope blasted a shore power receptacle through it.  

My boat has what some might consider low coamings. But the angle is right and they're comfortable. We use cushions for back rests. I keep them near each sheet winch. I use the cushions for my knees when using the winches. 

36758385853_fc85aff7ee_h.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Uncooperative Tom said:

Beautiful boat but a house of pain. I see vertical cockpit coaming boards that are attractively low. Meaning, wrong angle and height for any kind of back support. Also far too shallow to be of any use at all if I put a cushion under my scrawny ass, which I do if racers can tolerate the enormous weight of such a luxury. Nice toe rail. If some racer gets the idea that having my skinny legs hanging over the side is really going to make us go THAT much faster, that would do a good job of making my lower legs go numb. Even the standard catboat jib trimmer spot doesn't have enough angle to be a good backrest.

But this thread is about admiration and I admire that the cockpit is at least long enough for a nap.

Uncooperative T makes some very good points.  I grew up in Maine, I love classic boats/yachts and the varnish and bronze and....   But EVERY time I've considered the remotest thought of "maybe I would like one..." , the ergonomics of the cockpits and the painful realities of bumped shins, sore back, hard seats just abruptly banishes the thought.  Too many of the latest designs do the same thing to me while also failing to inspire.  Who out there--designer, builder, manufacturer, is working on personal comfort as a priority, while sailing?  (I'm not talking about luxury or interiors)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Kris Cringle said:

PIERA, a lovely Italian name for a girl (https://forvo.com/word/piera/), and well fitting on a beautiful boat. I saw her from my mooring and took a row around this 1955 Rhodes design, yesterday afternoon. 

37426793261_6d37eed310_h.jpg

It's not easy for a classic boat to stick out in my harbor, but she caught my eye from afar. I usually find pre 60's sailboat design a little dated for my taste yet PIERA, is timeless. 

37426793321_e14d310d13_h.jpg

The most beautiful aspect of classic sailboats like this is that they are so small! 45' of 1955 LOA low freeboard and graceful sheer, looks like 35' of contemporary cruising sailboat. 

37396164822_613dbfc2a7_h.jpg

I had to row close and stand up in the dinghy to get a sense of the on deck feel, on PIERA. Nice, very nice. 

36717241124_4c1b6c5b9e_h.jpg

 

There is another lovely moored just ahead and to the port of PIERA. (From the first pic.) Wish you could check that out for us too if she is still there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Omer said:

There is another lovely moored just ahead and to the port of PIERA. (From the first pic.) Wish you could check that out for us too if she is still there.

 

4 hours ago, viktor said:

The white one looks like a Concordia.

It is a Concordia. I took my camera over after a sail today. 

36767514003_c4935603e7_h.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, Veeger said:

Who out there--designer, builder, manufacturer, is working on personal comfort as a priority, while sailing?  (I'm not talking about luxury or interiors)

Sadly, he just left the building.

RIP

See the backrest slightly ABOVE his shoulder?

It had sheepskin.

elderlycare.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Pierra fresh back from her second total rebuild in 18 years or so!  Was completely rebuilt by Hinckley in the late 90s.  Sold and then taken to St barths by the current owner.   Captain left her in one orientation forever so she dried out on side.  Eventually got worms and was shipped back to New England where she was rebuilt again. Boat is for sale if anyone is interested.   Price will take your breath away!   She has been a Nantucket boat for ever, so maybe someone will buy her for near what they're asking.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, eliboat said:

Pierra fresh back from her second total rebuild in 18 years or so!  Was completely rebuilt by Hinckley in the late 90s.  Sold and then taken to St barths by the current owner.   Captain left her in one orientation forever so she dried out on side.  Eventually got worms and was shipped back to New England where she was rebuilt again. Boat is for sale if anyone is interested.   Price will take your breath away!   She has been a Nantucket boat for ever, so maybe someone will buy her for near what they're asking.  

I saw that article on the Hinckley rebuild. http://ellsworthamerican.com/archive/news2002/01-24-02/ea_news4_01-24-02.html You explain why I got the feeling the boat hasn't seen as great care, since.

 

She looks good but I'm wondering if she is here for some work(I saw the auto bilge pump cycle once,...). You can't find better wooden boat builders than we have here. Plus there is an in house brokerage. We'll find out soon enough.

 

What's the price, I can't find a listing? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Bob Perry said:

Sort of seems like the concordia yawl embodies everything that to my eye defines beauty in yachts.

Whatever the appeal is for owners, Bob, there is a sustainable market for these Concordia's. I know a few of the owners and many of the boats. I think they are an acquired taste. Either you grew up with one (why so many seem to stay in a family), you have some fond memory of one, or you're just bit by that 'gotta have one' bug. 

Scuttlebutt from knowledgable wooden boat owners and builders is that the Concordia's were lightly built for racing and not expected to last this long. 

With 200 built and almost all still in service, there appears to be a pretty good balance of supply and demand. I see 11 for sale on Yachtworld right now. I know some of them: You can pay for perfect maintenance - average asking, $150k, or buy one needing a rebuild - average $50k + $150k. Then you need about $20k per year, to keep it right. The projects may not move too fast but I see the well maintained Concordia's move quickly. They tend to be owned long term(so unlike new boats), often beyond the shelf life we have as sailors. 

Some of your boats will have a similar following one day, when we're all gone. 

34615263363_8ac8adb15a_h.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, kdh said:

$20k/yr to keep it right? I would have guessed $40k. Just varnish is going to be $15k.

 

Believe it or not, yearly varnish maintenance doesn't cost that at all for these boats. I see these boats, brightwork flattened by surface sanding by one or two varnishers, waiting for weather to put an annual coat on. This process can go on for many years as the boats are inside stored and out in NE sun for 4 or 5 months. Some boats are more expensive because they insist on keeping failure prone horizontal surfaces(like cockpit seats!), bright. But most of the areas of brightwork can last more than a decade. I've had varnishers tell me some owners go much longer than that (as the varnishers roll their eyes). 

But that annual brightwork maintenance, 2 varnishers say,...16 hours(guess) + materials $15-1800? So average maybe 2000 for brightwork on a 40'er over a 10 year period? 

When it finally fails and the boat is 'wooded', you have a much bigger project. But that only happens every 10 or so years and in reality, they 'wood' different areas over time. These boats show various stages of decline in brightwork, if you look closely. I've seen some brightwork near 20 years old. 

And another surprisingly cheap item: Many of them get the topsides brush coated with enamel, every spring. Because that is an ongoing process like brightwork, it too is a quick process. The prep work (like maintained brightwork) is ongoing, year after year. I've seen 2 experienced painters roll and tip the topsides of a 40'er in half a day. Add a day for light sanding, spot prep, and you've got a boat that looks brand new. I'll guess another $2000 for one topsides coat, light prep. 

Both these tasks as mostly done inside which adds costs for the building, moving the boat, etc. And these boats are all stored inside(expensive). Add hauling and launching, all the misc repairs that are needed every year, and the one big project that's bound to crop up every 10 years, and I would bet an annual 20K isn't too far off. After all, that's 200k over 10 years. 

The big cost to wooden boats like this - that I see - is being the owner when the yard approaches you with the sad news, "She's gotten tired,..." Then all estimates are off! They can require a lot of work. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Kris Cringle said:

Whatever the appeal is for owners, Bob, there is a sustainable market for these Concordia's. I know a few of the owners and many of the boats. I think they are an acquired taste. Either you grew up with one (why so many seem to stay in a family), you have some fond memory of one, or you're just bit by that 'gotta have one' bug. 

Scuttlebutt from knowledgable wooden boat owners and builders is that the Concordia's were lightly built for racing and not expected to last this long. 

With 200 built and almost all still in service, there appears to be a pretty good balance of supply and demand. I see 11 for sale on Yachtworld right now. I know some of them: You can pay for perfect maintenance - average asking, $150k, or buy one needing a rebuild - average $50k + $150k. Then you need about $20k per year, to keep it right. The projects may not move too fast but I see the well maintained Concordia's move quickly. They tend to be owned long term(so unlike new boats), often beyond the shelf life we have as sailors. 

Some of your boats will have a similar following one day, when we're all gone. 

34615263363_8ac8adb15a_h.jpg

Hell, someone is asking $120K for a recently rebuilt Herreshoff "S" class daysailor. http://brooklinboatyard.com/mischief-2/

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Kris Cringle said:

I saw that article on the Hinckley rebuild. http://ellsworthamerican.com/archive/news2002/01-24-02/ea_news4_01-24-02.html You explain why I got the feeling the boat hasn't seen as great care, since.

 

She looks good but I'm wondering if she is here for some work(I saw the auto bilge pump cycle once,...). You can't find better wooden boat builders than we have here. Plus there is an in house brokerage. We'll find out soon enough.

 

What's the price, I can't find a listing? 

If I remember correctly, I think it's in the neighborhood of $825k...  I'm waiting on a text for confirmation, but whatever the price is at now, she is far more expensive than a Concordia.  As far as her care goes, I know the owner that had the Hinckley job done took good care of her before selling her.  I think the next owner made the mistake of leaving her in St Barths without the best supervision sadly.  This was compounded by the owner having a new 90' or so cold molded boat built, which I think he was more into focusing on.  

Not sure what the deal is with the boat being in Rockport, other than the fact that Nantucket really has no ability on the island to handle boats of any size much beyond 40'.   There are some exceptions, but even if you do manage to get the boat hauled, solid indoor storage and maintenance facilities are nonexistent.  I've delivered several boats to and from Nantucket to Rockport or Brooklin, and most cases that's just for storage, as it's easy enough to obtain up that way vs down south.  Some boats go to Newport and places on the Cape, but a surprising number of the wood boats make the trek downeast.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, eliboat said:

If I remember correctly, I think it's in the neighborhood of $825k...  I'm waiting on a text for confirmation, but whatever the price is at now, she is far more expensive than a Concordia.  As far as her care goes, I know the owner that had the Hinckley job done took good care of her before selling her.  I think the next owner made the mistake of leaving her in St Barths without the best supervision sadly.  This was compounded by the owner having a new 90' or so cold molded boat built, which I think he was more into focusing on.  

Not sure what the deal is with the boat being in Rockport, other than the fact that Nantucket really has no ability on the island to handle boats of any size much beyond 40'.   There are some exceptions, but even if you do manage to get the boat hauled, solid indoor storage and maintenance facilities are nonexistent.  I've delivered several boats to and from Nantucket to Rockport or Brooklin, and most cases that's just for storage, as it's easy enough to obtain up that way vs down south.  Some boats go to Newport and places on the Cape, but a surprising number of the wood boats make the trek downeast.

There's no place better for wooden boats than Ballentine's in Cataumet. I suspect they are more expensive than the places up north, though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites