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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  
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1 hour ago, Omer said:

You guys amaze me with your estimates of upkeeping costs. O.K. am not a US citizen and i am not used to calculating everything on the basis of hiring someone who has to earn 150.000 dollars a year just doing brightwork.

If you own a boat as such (someone mentioned correctly that she probably owns you!) you probably spend more time messing about her than actually sailing. How much does it cost to spend 20 hours yourself with a gallon or too of varnish and a few brushes?

If you are incapable of doing it yoursef, or if you do not enjoy carressing her with your brush, perhaps you shoud not own her in the first place. 

I can almost hear some of you thinking if i spend 20 hours of my own time on it, that also translates to so many dollars i earn per hour.

My answer to it that you shoud not calculate it on that basis.  If you have to make a calculation, think how much good this provides to your physical and mental health which otherwise you would be spending on your shrink, medical care, insurance and all the boose and drugs to stay on top. 

In the US, generally a person who can afford such a boat doesn't have the the time for maintainence. Either they pay someone to do it, which costs a fair chuck of change, or the boat falls behind in upkeep until it's no longer usable, and just sits neglected at the dock.

also, the required maintainence varies widely by location. Here in Florida, upkeep on a wooden classic is nearly continuous due to high UV and salt air, plus year round in the water storage. It's much less in the NE, and on the Great Lakes, the fresh water makes upkeep pretty easy. 

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3 hours ago, Omer said:

You guys amaze me with your estimates of upkeeping costs. O.K. am not a US citizen and i am not used to calculating everything on the basis of hiring someone who has to earn 150.000 dollars a year just doing brightwork.

If you own a boat as such (someone mentioned correctly that she probably owns you!) you probably spend more time messing about her than actually sailing. How much does it cost to spend 20 hours yourself with a gallon or too of varnish and a few brushes?

If you are incapable of doing it yoursef, or if you do not enjoy carressing her with your brush, perhaps you shoud not own her in the first place. 

I can almost hear some of you thinking if i spend 20 hours of my own time on it, that also translates to so many dollars i earn per hour.

My answer to it that you shoud not calculate it on that basis.  If you have to make a calculation, think how much good this provides to your physical and mental health which otherwise you would be spending on your shrink, medical care, insurance and all the boose and drugs to stay on top. 

Well said.

People often say to us "oh, that's nice, but all that varnish, that's too much work", in an accusatory tone.  it's a very strange thing. I want to ask what they do with their time and where they get their consolation from. They probably spend more time watching shite TV than I do varnishing, and I end up with something beautiful that improves everyone's life who sees it, and, well, they know who won Celebrity Shitfight. 

Bah. Have I really turned into this?

But I like varnishing, I like sailing and just wish I had more time to do both. Because work was so busy this year I did in fact pay a lot of money to have a lot of very good varnishing done, which reminded me of how amateur my own work is. At about the equivalent of 50 usd per hour, (of which maybe a third went to the workers themselves). 

However I did find a very expert independent guy to paint the topsides, whose pay was about that third referenced above. 

 

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4 hours ago, Omer said:

You guys amaze me with your estimates of upkeeping costs. O.K. am not a US citizen and i am not used to calculating everything on the basis of hiring someone who has to earn 150.000 dollars a year just doing brightwork.

If you own a boat as such (someone mentioned correctly that she probably owns you!) you probably spend more time messing about her than actually sailing. How much does it cost to spend 20 hours yourself with a gallon or too of varnish and a few brushes?

If you are incapable of doing it yoursef, or if you do not enjoy carressing her with your brush, perhaps you shoud not own her in the first place. 

I can almost hear some of you thinking if i spend 20 hours of my own time on it, that also translates to so many dollars i earn per hour.

My answer to it that you shoud not calculate it on that basis.  If you have to make a calculation, think how much good this provides to your physical and mental health which otherwise you would be spending on your shrink, medical care, insurance and all the boose and drugs to stay on top. 

"I'd rather sail than varnish,...." I love that one. We've had a great season(30 some days and nights onboard), and still sailing, and will through October. I haven't touched a varnish brush since June. I never do. Why would you unless you don't know what you're doing?  

I don't count my time varnishing. Prep work for any coating is usually hard work but varnishing, lowers my blood pressure. It's a tricky craft, very rewarding when you get pleasing results(and mine are not up to the pro's). Plus it's a great coating system, if done right. 

This is the back of my old house. I won't go into the prep work, but, between work, I applied 2 coats of white paint to this, this week, myself. How long does it take to put a coat on, 3 gallons of house paint?

One 64 year old man, that is not a 'house painter' by trade, 6-7 hours. 

The trick? Roll and tip (I roll and tip everything, even clapboards with a bucket and long nap roller) and $5 or 6,000 brilliant staging I use for my business. Piece of cake. My boat is easy compared to my house. I enjoy doing stuff like this quickly and efficiently. 

37501060511_5cb98f98c9_h.jpg

Second coat, and done. 

37453734136_388ff2963a_h.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

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40 minutes ago, A horse, of course said:

But I like varnishing, I like sailing and just wish I had more time to do both. Because work was so busy this year I did in fact pay a lot of money to have a lot of very good varnishing done, which reminded me of how amateur my own work is. At about the equivalent of 50 usd per hour, (of which maybe a third went to the workers themselves). 

However I did find a very expert independent guy to paint the topsides, whose pay was about that third referenced above. 

 

I checked a few local rates and the going boat yard rate for varnishers/painters averages around $50/hour. That's not too bad considering that I pay about $40 per hour for house painters. All in all, we're a deal up here in Maine when it comes to boat building and work, and that has been historically the case. Many of the big design(Alden, S&S) firms sent their work to Maine in through the last century. 

 

I once watched a very capable guy (boatyard worker moonlighting), hand brush, without rolling, a 36' wooden boat in about 5 hours. He was a master of the conditions, timing his work to the day and sun, and I had to squint very hard at various angles, to see any brush marks at all. Probably cost the owner $200 bucks, including the paint. 

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10 hours ago, kdh said:

High freeboard = ugly.

Amen!

Kris, Omer, Ed, I agree that a simple "manual" job done well (or reasonably well) is very satisfying and good for the soul.

"if you do not enjoy caressing her with your brush, perhaps you should not own her in the first place" (very sensual and true)

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14 hours ago, A horse, of course said:

Well said.

People often say to us "oh, that's nice, but all that varnish, that's too much work", in an accusatory tone.  it's a very strange thing. I want to ask what they do with their time and where they get their consolation from. They probably spend more time watching shite TV than I do varnishing, and I end up with something beautiful that improves everyone's life who sees it, and, well, they know who won Celebrity Shitfight. 

Bah. Have I really turned into this?

But I like varnishing, I like sailing and just wish I had more time to do both. Because work was so busy this year I did in fact pay a lot of money to have a lot of very good varnishing done, which reminded me of how amateur my own work is. At about the equivalent of 50 usd per hour, (of which maybe a third went to the workers themselves). 

However I did find a very expert independent guy to paint the topsides, whose pay was about that third referenced above. 

 

What do I do with my time? Work and family. Otherwise sailing, which takes a fair bit of time away from family, but I l love being on the water more than they do. I go out a lot with friends. I'm watching Ken Burns's "Vietnam" series these days.

I spend a negligible amount of time working on my boat. Mostly odd jobs that are difficult to hire out. I have a good relationship with a local yard in Narragansett bay. They do great work, I pay them a fair price and on time. I get to sail more. I show up, put the provisions aboard, slip the lines and I'm on the water.

Here's my boat. Not a lot of brightwork. I just checked and the bill I got in June was $7,030 at $70/hr. I'm happy to pay it. I'm sure if I had the time I'd make a mess of it and frankly, I'm just not interested. At all. What does varnishing have to do with sailing?

Call me a loser if you want.

FjLQvz2.jpg

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1 minute ago, kdh said:

What do I do with my time? Work and family. Otherwise sailing, which takes a fair bit of time away from family, but I l love being on the water more than they do. I go out a lot with friends. I'm watching Ken Burns's "Vietnam" series these days.

I spend a negligible amount of time working on my boat. Mostly odd jobs that are difficult to hire out. I have a good relationship with a local yard in Narragansett bay. They do great work, I pay them a fair price and on time. I get to sail more. I show up, put the provisions aboard, slip the lines and I'm on the water.

Here's my boat. Not a lot of brightwork. I just checked and the bill I got in June was $7,030 at $70/hr. I'm happy to pay it. I'm sure if I had the time I'd make a mess of it and frankly, I'm just not interested. At all. What does varnishing have to do with sailing?

Call me a loser if you want.

FjLQvz2.jpg

Lovely yott. Congratulations. I might have added that boat prep is usually done at a time when the boat is laid up. When it eats into sailing time yes, that can be irksome.

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Thanks, horse.

By the way, here's my house. Yes, that's Epifanes varnish. Those bills are bigger.

TgpN83K.jpg

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1 minute ago, kdh said:

Thanks, horse.

By the way, here's my house. Yes, that Epifanes varnish. Those bills are bigger.

TgpN83K.jpg

Lovely gaff.

We've been using Awlwood for a few seasons now - three year old work still looks like new unless damaged by ropes or similar. As to price it comes in at the same price as a good second growth claret. 

For a slightly different interpretation of a wooden house, here's ours, with the boat in front. The house probably dates from about 1600. The whole is a very old school English maritime scene. Our lives are currently blighted by an attempt to replace the boatsheds (just out of view here) with cookie cutter housing. Our campaigning website - www.maritimeburnham.com has the story.  

 

59d61fca68cd1_wobblyhouse.thumb.jpg.f3b638c0ab0af9cc705ca54a8f2b2422.jpg

 

 

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Beautiful. 

You get less ultraviolet light than we I'm sure. Even southern vs northern New England there's a significant difference. I think my yard use Awlwood on my transom, which is not in direct sunlight.

Our house was built in 1960. "Mid-century modern" we call them now.

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1 hour ago, kdh said:

What do I do with my time? Work and family. Otherwise sailing, which takes a fair bit of time away from family, but I l love being on the water more than they do. I go out a lot with friends. I'm watching Ken Burns's "Vietnam" series these days.

I spend a negligible amount of time working on my boat. Mostly odd jobs that are difficult to hire out. I have a good relationship with a local yard in Narragansett bay. They do great work, I pay them a fair price and on time. I get to sail more. I show up, put the provisions aboard, slip the lines and I'm on the water.

Here's my boat. Not a lot of brightwork. I just checked and the bill I got in June was $7,030 at $70/hr. I'm happy to pay it. I'm sure if I had the time I'd make a mess of it and frankly, I'm just not interested. At all. What does varnishing have to do with sailing?

Call me a loser if you want.

FjLQvz2.jpg

Kdh.........what kind of dinghy is that ?   how heavy is it ?   How do you get it on and off the boat's bow ?    I need to get a dinghy but don't want to drag one.   thx.

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That is a classic, for these parts, Dyer Midget: 7'11", 90 lbs. Philip Rhodes design.

I use a 3-point bridle and the spinnaker halyard to get it on and off the boat.

j0xWKHp.jpg

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2 hours ago, kdh said:

That is a classic, for these parts, Dyer Midget: 7'11", 90 lbs. Philip Rhodes design.

I use a 3-point bridle and the spinnaker halyard to get it on and off the boat.

j0xWKHp.jpg

I've got a Dyer Midget project sitting on back porch. Needs new wood rails. Not sure if I'm going to replace seats or refurbish them. Sweet little dinghies. 

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5 hours ago, kdh said:

Beautiful. 

You get less ultraviolet light than we I'm sure. Even southern vs northern New England there's a significant difference. I think my yard use Awlwood on my transom, which is not in direct sunlight.

Our house was built in 1960. "Mid-century modern" we call them now.

Yes I forget how North we are. Something like 51 degrees in London. I don't know what we'd do without the loan of your Gulf Stream- keep sending it! 

I hope you're careful with your pictures and furniture and books with all that light. 

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8 hours ago, kdh said:

What do I do with my time? Work and family. Otherwise sailing, which takes a fair bit of time away from family, but I l love being on the water more than they do. I go out a lot with friends. I'm watching Ken Burns's "Vietnam" series these days.

I spend a negligible amount of time working on my boat. Mostly odd jobs that are difficult to hire out. I have a good relationship with a local yard in Narragansett bay. They do great work, I pay them a fair price and on time. I get to sail more. I show up, put the provisions aboard, slip the lines and I'm on the water.

Here's my boat. Not a lot of brightwork. I just checked and the bill I got in June was $7,030 at $70/hr. I'm happy to pay it. I'm sure if I had the time I'd make a mess of it and frankly, I'm just not interested. At all. What does varnishing have to do with sailing?

Call me a loser if you want.

FjLQvz2.jpg

Your boat looks fantastic KDH and having work done on the boat by professionals is often part of maintaining a boat.  Especially if the time, skill set or facilities are beyond our abilities or are unavailable. 

 

 

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5 hours ago, kdh said:

That is a classic, for these parts, Dyer Midget: 7'11", 90 lbs. Philip Rhodes design.

I use a 3-point bridle and the spinnaker halyard to get it on and off the boat.

j0xWKHp.jpg

Beautiful. Your daughter? Those little boats are worth more than many 20 to 26 or so foot fiberglass sailboats, of the same vintage! I can find free, big boats, but there are no free hard dinghy's in fact if you can find one, they command a big price. 

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28 minutes ago, Kris Cringle said:

Beautiful. Your daughter? Those little boats are worth more than many 20 to 26 or so foot fiberglass sailboats, of the same vintage! I can find free, big boats, but there are no free hard dinghy's in fact if you can find one, they command a big price. 

Yes, though she's 14 now and I'm a bit more grey.

I had mine built new at the Dyer shop in Warren, Rhode Island. I matched the gelcoat to the mother ship's deck, had all the wood done in teak rather than mahogany, even had them add a sculling notch.

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I liked my Dyer Midget, but boy did they make them heavy. I replaced it with a Gig Harbor Ultralite which has a hull that is about 25lbs lighter.  The Midget has a love of heavy bronze.

Used hard dinghies are around $200-$1200 in these parts. For some reason the Minto has a price premium.  Lesser known ones can be quite cheap: a good looking Clark row/sail dinghy for $500 was at my marina all summer before selling.  I bought and sold my Midget for around $750. 

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LONE FOX is 65' long, 60 years old, and for sale. 

36819967474_dfbfbae7b6_h.jpg

Pretty ketch, designed by Robert Clark and built in Scotland in 1957, she has history. http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listing/pl_boat_detail.jsp?checked_boats=2998025&hosturl=davidjones&slim=broker

37498625132_778732aee1_h.jpg

Checking her out from the docks, there is no hiding the fact, she needs new teak decks. When I found the listing online, I was glad to see right in the intro, the owner concedes she needs new decks. No nonsense, I love that. 

37271628290_249d23a204_h.jpg

Heres' the equation: $350,000 plus new decks. That's a big project. If these decks were built in the typical manner used on boats like BRILLIANT, LONE FOX's decks are original. Here's BRILLIANTS 70 year old decks shortly after removal. I was amazed at the structure after all those years of sun and salt and much more use than most boats will ever see. 

36819998004_09015eb983_h.jpg

I wouldn't be surprised if new decks would cost half the purchase price. You might have 500k in LONE FOX. The 'survey' will reveal the condition of the rest of the boat to support (or not) the investment. 

Here is BRILLIANT with her new decks, a few years ago. LONE FOX is in the right harbor for the new decks. 

32206833164_24615f4ea2_h.jpg

 

 

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1 hour ago, Kris Cringle said:

Here's BRILLIANTS 70 year old decks shortly after removal. I was amazed at the structure after all those years of sun and salt and much more use than most boats will ever see. 

36819998004_09015eb983_h.jpg

 

That's considered worn out? I know nothing about teak decks but it sure seems like you could get a lot more life out of those boards. What are the criteria for worn out?

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14 minutes ago, IStream said:

That's considered worn out? I know nothing about teak decks but it sure seems like you could get a lot more life out of those boards. What are the criteria for worn out?

As I recall (I observed Brilliants deck project), the deck thickness, after 70 years (much year round, time in Arctic I think,...), had been used up. Meaning the plugs were coming loose(the original plugs would have been 1/2 to 3/4" deep, perhaps), the caulking gain was running short to hold caulking and generally not able to be kept water tight throughout the deck.You can see the V match chamfer on the bottom which formed the finished ceilings below. 

 

This section may not have been as worn as other areas that would have seen more traffic. However like any large project like this, the timing may have saved $$ over waiting until years of leaking decks doubled to project? 

 

The amazing thing is (to me) is the deck stood up to 70 years of very hard use. Designed of wood to wear away, while supplying a water tight overhead. All the while having the characteristics of fine teak deck. These real teak decks which are structural as well as beautiful, are nothing like the teak veneer decks prevalent on 'modern' fiberglass boats. 

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KC, I'm sure you know that the Hinckley yard early on discouraged the use of veneer teak decks.

Even the glued-on veneers are impractical. Heavy, hot under foot, hard to keep clean.

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Makes sense that this wouldn't be a typically worn section. I gotta think it'd be easier/cheaper to re-mill the caulking grooves and re-set the fasteners for deeper plugs if it were all like what's shown.

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Keep in mind that Brilliant was built as a "best of everything" project and has extraordinary  care.  The run of the mill vessels from her time are mostly long gone.

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On 10/5/2017 at 10:49 AM, Rasputin22 said:

Did someone say varnish?

8738557386_8533f56808_b.jpg

That's an extremely awkward dodger. I don't think it can go to Ugly Dodgers just because it's rescued by the boat.

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4 hours ago, Kris Cringle said:

LONE FOX is 65' long, 60 years old, and for sale. 

36819967474_dfbfbae7b6_h.jpg

Pretty ketch, designed by Robert Clark and built in Scotland in 1957, she has history. http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listing/pl_boat_detail.jsp?checked_boats=2998025&hosturl=davidjones&slim=broker

37498625132_778732aee1_h.jpg

Checking her out from the docks, there is no hiding the fact, she needs new teak decks. When I found the listing online, I was glad to see right in the intro, the owner concedes she needs new decks. No nonsense, I love that. 

37271628290_249d23a204_h.jpg

Heres' the equation: $350,000 plus new decks. That's a big project. If these decks were built in the typical manner used on boats like BRILLIANT, LONE FOX's decks are original. Here's BRILLIANTS 70 year old decks shortly after removal. I was amazed at the structure after all those years of sun and salt and much more use than most boats will ever see. 

36819998004_09015eb983_h.jpg

I wouldn't be surprised if new decks would cost half the purchase price. You might have 500k in LONE FOX. The 'survey' will reveal the condition of the rest of the boat to support (or not) the investment. 

Here is BRILLIANT with her new decks, a few years ago. LONE FOX is in the right harbor for the new decks. 

32206833164_24615f4ea2_h.jpg

 

 

That's a lovely boat, but that gorgeous overhang aft will unfortunately possibly pound in a seaway. Bluewater boats should have moderate or minimal overhangs.

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Where would you even find teak that long & thick these days?

At any price.

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1 hour ago, SloopJonB said:

Where would you even find teak that long & thick these days?

At any price.

Just type "long, thick teak" into the Google, I'm sure something interesting will come up. 

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I understand teak is rapidly becoming "unobtainium". What will they get to replace it, Ipe? Brazilian Rosewood? I built a deck at my house of Rosewood and the planks were nearly perfect when I sold the house ten years later. But that wasn't in a marine environment and I have no idea if any substitute has been found short of that synthetic stuff. 

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5 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

Where would you even find teak that long & thick these days?

At any price.

 

1 hour ago, kinardly said:

I understand teak is rapidly becoming "unobtainium". What will they get to replace it, Ipe? Brazilian Rosewood? I built a deck at my house of Rosewood and the planks were nearly perfect when I sold the house ten years later. But that wasn't in a marine environment and I have no idea if any substitute has been found short of that synthetic stuff. 

When I was looking for tropical hardwood to build a new cockpit for my boat, I found alternatives. A local boat builder pointed out the decks on REBECCA, a schooner built at Benjamin and Gannon on MV(she just got a maintenance coat of varnish in this shot). They used a different hardwood for the decking(probably half the cost of teak), but I can't remember the name.

But the point is, there are alternatives to teak. I used Ipe for my cockpit, 1/3rd the cost and readily available. 

36830455634_302342a5e8_b.jpg

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Ipe is good stuff. I've built two decks out of it and used the scraps for all sorts of boat projects. As long as you're diligent about waxing the cut ends and piloting all the screw holes properly it won't crack and it wears incredibly well.

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Iroko and Angelique are both pretty well regarded as teak substitutes.

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21 hours ago, kdh said:

KC, I'm sure you know that the Hinckley yard early on discouraged the use of veneer teak decks.

Even the glued-on veneers are impractical. Heavy, hot under foot, hard to keep clean.

The better builders probably knew that putting the teak veneer over cored glass decks would haunt them(the screws alone). When we turned the corner from wood to glass, too much gratuitous wood was used on the new fiberglass boats. If you make a coaming out of a stout piece of wood on a new boat, that makes sense. It's attractive, it's functional. 

But if you build in the fiberglass coaming, then put a teak top on it just for looks, that's just marketing that adds maintenance(and no skills in building). Or a raised bulwark of fiberglass that they capped with an impossible to maintain wood cap. They did a lot of stuff like that in the 60's including the gratuitous teak decks. Prior to that, wood, brightwork was functional and cared for more easily, I think, because the coating systems were well known and used. Preservation was the primary goal. 

The only veneer decks that make sense to me are those used on new construction today. Mostly composite wood boats. They have thought the process and life span out.

I stumbled on this shocking example yesterday: a 91' deck, just completed, for a 91' hull built last year, launched and floated down east for finishing. I couldn't see the finished construction but I assume the finished veneered deck is on. You're looking at the strong back frame that the deck was built on, used as the shipping skid. 

37500072686_4e1242f182_b.jpg

This place fascinates me! I've been a builder - maker for most of my life(residential homes), and walking through here inspires me. The 91' hull leaves in the spring, the 91' deck goes out in the fall. This place ticks to a builders mind(all of them here). Incredible things are going on yet there is always an air on nonchalance at this yard.

Loaded on a 100 foot trailer the deck is delivered by now.

Talk about the moment of truth - when that deck meets the hull - there will be a few anxious eyes watching,...

37548218901_f0d11e7e34_b.jpg 

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On October 5, 2017 at 6:46 AM, kdh said:

What do I do with my time? Work and family. Otherwise sailing, which takes a fair bit of time away from family, but I l love being on the water more than they do. I go out a lot with friends. I'm watching Ken Burns's "Vietnam" series these days.

I spend a negligible amount of time working on my boat. Mostly odd jobs that are difficult to hire out. I have a good relationship with a local yard in Narragansett bay. They do great work, I pay them a fair price and on time. I get to sail more. I show up, put the provisions aboard, slip the lines and I'm on the water.

Here's my boat. Not a lot of brightwork. I just checked and the bill I got in June was $7,030 at $70/hr. I'm happy to pay it. I'm sure if I had the time I'd make a mess of it and frankly, I'm just not interested. At all. What does varnishing have to do with sailing?

Call me a loser if you want.

FjLQvz2.jpg

Watch it there feller, I'm the Loser here, don't be poaching my chickens.

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2 hours ago, Kris Cringle said:

Rockport Marine (red buildings) at the head of Rockport Harbor, Maine. 

26827382992_b1f7e48360_b.jpg

What my parent's called a "state'o'Maine" day.

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Seems likely that this is our new ride:

59d93040e1fcd_Restive2.jpg.6d18ec056ba9e6e56d87e2b8f751f826.jpg

 

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4 hours ago, viktor said:

Thanks. Didn't they do a major refit on Baruna a while back? Any idea where Baruna is now?

I don't recall that. Maybe you're thinking of BOLERO? They did a major rebuild of her a few years back. 

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Thanks Bob! That's nice from someone who knows delicious.

 Olaf, she is a 48' Alden, Niels Helleberg design, custom built by Brooklin Boat Yard and launched 2005. Behind all of the pretty is a tall carbon mast, deep fin keel with bulb, carbon spade rudder, and the most breathtaking raised panel Herreshoff interior I've seen. She sails like the wind. In Maine, and I guess everywhere else, she's considered Spirit of Tradition. Performance wise, she is a wolf in sheep's clothing.

Among the details, each successive oval cabin port going forward is slightly small than the last, to match the taper of the cabin top.

Her (original) owner is a dear friend who has sailed on Sparky, and I have sailed this boat with him, we've also cruised in company. His main concern was that the next owner appreciate her for the special boat she is, and have the means and willingness to maintain her in the style to which she has become accustomed. Otherwise, he would not be parting with her. What sealed the deal is Mrs. Loser, who has enthusiastically embraced this as our last cruising sailboat.

boat21.jpg.2a37b5644fc9c75e8124ebca7b9775b7.jpg

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Loser,

     That is a stunning boat! Congrats. 

     I have never been fond of the look of that particular roller furling boom (sorry KDH) but it has never looked so much like the telephone pole that it was modeled after than it does on the Hellenberg design. Other than that you got a keeper. 

    Lots of rake to those spreaders for such a traditional looking boat. Ask Bob has any spare Offshore booms like on the Carbon cutter laying around. I think that they can be fitted with in boom roller furling too but at a cost. 

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2 hours ago, Cruisin Loser said:

Seems likely that this is our new ride:

59d93040e1fcd_Restive2.jpg.6d18ec056ba9e6e56d87e2b8f751f826.jpg

 

You're going to have to change your handle.

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On September 29, 2017 at 10:57 AM, Rasputin22 said:

X-Touche was an AR but I think she was a composite bronze keel, floors and centerboard case with laminated frames. She showed up not long after I had sailed to the Islands and made St John my homeport. She did have the airplane style 'pendular pedestal' where the wheel can be handed off to either side like on old aircraft. Sort off a 'poor mans' dual controls. I got to sail on here a couple of times and could still win races in the Caribbean circuit. She went up on the rocks on the NW side of Great Cruz Bay in a near miss hurricane and it didn't take long for her hulk to get reduced to just the bronze backbone. I would often snorkel the wreck and was able to see just how she was built in a sort of 'cutaway' provided by the slow removal of her topsides and interior. I got a few nice examples of custom hardware a year of so after the wreck but one day was having a go at the fancy helm unit and the owner pulled up in a dinghy and gave me some shit about that. I told him to get in the water and help me get the last surviving piece of the boat off and he could have it. I was just upset to see the binnacle and helm sticking out of the water to remind me of the loss of the first ocean racer I ever fell in love with and to my surprise he did join me and I think the hardware ended up in a St John restaurant. 

William H. Tripp Jr.
1920-1971
 
A native of Long Island, New York, Bill Tripp began as designer in the office of Phillip Rhodes.
After service during World War II, he joined Sparkman & Stevens. In 1952 he started his own practice. In 1957, Tripp’s 'Touche', a 48-foot flush-deck sloop, built by Abeking and Rasmussen in Germany, compiled a good race record and gave its young designer a boost in stature. His boats were then built of wood, but the allure of fiberglass soon drew his attention. Tripp conducted his own experiments with the new material and ultimately became a pioneer designer of the era.
Among his many successful designs for production yachts are the Block Island 40, and the Hinckley Bermuda 40.

Bob, this may be the aluminum Tripp by A&R. Originally AVENIR, she was a sistership to ONDINE II.

4106699_2_20121016063754_1_0.jpg&w=924&h=693&t=1367242006000

4106699_2_20121016063754_0_0.jpg&w=924&h=693&t=1367242006000

Reminds me of this

http://sparkmanstephens.blogspot.com/2011/08/design-1706-challenge.html

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2 hours ago, Cruisin Loser said:

Thanks Bob! That's nice from someone who knows delicious.

 Olaf, she is a 48' Alden, Niels Helleberg design, custom built by Brooklin Boat Yard and launched 2005. Behind all of the pretty is a tall carbon mast, deep fin keel with bulb, carbon spade rudder, and the most breathtaking raised panel Herreshoff interior I've seen. She sails like the wind. In Maine, and I guess everywhere else, she's considered Spirit of Tradition. Performance wise, she is a wolf in sheep's clothing.

Among the details, each successive oval cabin port going forward is slightly small than the last, to match the taper of the cabin top.

Her (original) owner is a dear friend who has sailed on Sparky, and I have sailed this boat with him, we've also cruised in company. His main concern was that the next owner appreciate her for the special boat she is, and have the means and willingness to maintain her in the style to which she has become accustomed. Otherwise, he would not be parting with her. What sealed the deal is Mrs. Loser, who has enthusiastically embraced this as our last cruising sailboat.

boat21.jpg.2a37b5644fc9c75e8124ebca7b9775b7.jpg

Gorgeous boat.  IIRC you and Sparky's crew did a stellar job of rescuing this boats owner and crew after the Marion Bermuda race, no? 

What a way to meet!

I bought my boat from Brooklin BY a few years ago.

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12 hours ago, Rasputin22 said:

 I have never been fond of the look of that particular roller furling boom (sorry KDH) but it has never looked so much like the telephone pole that it was modeled after than it does on the Hellenberg design.

They tapered the windows but not that thing?

Nice boat, CL, but what's with that dodger up forward?

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RESTIVE, I've always loved that boat. The design is easy on the eyes. There is nothing lovelier than a sailboat that doesn't look stuffed into a too small skin.

 

Was it the last that Neils Hellerberg designed? I corresponded with him periodically during those years. He was a delightful gentleman, from a bygone era.  

 

What's with the name RESTIVE? I can't find a definition that makes sense for that boat. Is it borrowed from another boat? Are you a name changer? It would be a lot of fun for this group to work on a new one. :) 

 

And the photos! We need some new photos of her. I see Billy Black took the last one so there must be some good originals that aren't so washed out in color, light. 

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46 minutes ago, Kris Cringle said:

What's with the name RESTIVE? I can't find a definition that makes sense for that boat.

I think is a corker of a name. Really conjures the image of the boat tugging at her mooring lines, wanting to be at sea with a fair breeze and a clear horizon ahead.

adjective

  • 1(of a person) unable to remain still, silent, or submissive, especially because of boredom or dissatisfaction.

    ‘the crowd had been waiting for hours and many were becoming restive’
     
    ‘he reiterated his determination to hold the restive republics together’
     
 

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7 minutes ago, Presuming Ed said:

I think is a corker of a name. Really conjures the image of the boat tugging at her mooring lines, wanting to be at sea with a fair breeze and a clear horizon ahead.

adjective

  • 1(of a person) unable to remain still, silent, or submissive, especially because of boredom or dissatisfaction.

    ‘the crowd had been waiting for hours and many were becoming restive’
     
    ‘he reiterated his determination to hold the restive republics together’
     
 

Much better in your context. I saw word origins and it just seemed more to describe a stubborn donkey. 

 

Word Origin & History

restive c.1410, restyffe "not movingforward," from M.Fr. restif (fem. restive)"motionless," from rester "to remain" (seerest (2)). Sense of "unmanageable"(1687) evolved via notion of a horserefusing to go forward.

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I'll be keeping the name, but changing the hailing port to Midland, Texas.  I love the name. She will never be a dock queen, she's done 15 or more Bermuda's already, and been to the south coast of Newfie multiple times. 

Monsoon, her owner and I were already friends, I had repaired some things for him in Bermuda. I haven't much discussed that episode on these forums, and am always a little surprised when people know about it. There was a pretty long article about it in the last Marion-Bermuda race book. Mrs. Loser believes it is destiny that brought us to this point.

Tom, the for'ard dodger allows the hatch to remain open in the rain and in most inshore sailing conditions, aiding ventilation. 

I'm waiting for the cabin door to close, flying east to clean out Sparky. This is bittersweet, we have loved that boat, sailed her hard and she has always behaved flawlessly. She was our forever boat, but we didn't see this coming, and I just couldn't turn it down.

Someone will get a great SW-42.

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12 minutes ago, Cruisin Loser said:

I'll be keeping the name, but changing the hailing port to Midland, Texas.  I love the name. She will never be a dock queen, she's done 15 or more Bermuda's already, and been to the south coast of Newfie multiple times. 

Monsoon, her owner and I were already friends, I had repaired some things for him in Bermuda. I haven't much discussed that episode on these forums, and am always a little surprised when people know about it. There was a pretty long article about it in the last Marion-Bermuda race book. Mrs. Loser believes it is destiny that brought us to this point.

Tom, the for'ard dodger allows the hatch to remain open in the rain and in most inshore sailing conditions, aiding ventilation. 

I'm waiting for the cabin door to close, flying east to clean out Sparky. This is bittersweet, we have loved that boat, sailed her hard and she has always behaved flawlessly. She was our forever boat, but we didn't see this coming, and I just couldn't turn it down.

Someone will get a great SW-42.

Can you share with us the nature of the steering issues on Restive, and how they were later resolved?

 

E

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4 hours ago, Cruisin Loser said:

I'll be keeping the name, but changing the hailing port to Midland, Texas.  I love the name. She will never be a dock queen, she's done 15 or more Bermuda's already, and been to the south coast of Newfie multiple times. 

Monsoon, her owner and I were already friends, I had repaired some things for him in Bermuda. I haven't much discussed that episode on these forums, and am always a little surprised when people know about it. There was a pretty long article about it in the last Marion-Bermuda race book. Mrs. Loser believes it is destiny that brought us to this point.

Tom, the for'ard dodger allows the hatch to remain open in the rain and in most inshore sailing conditions, aiding ventilation. 

I'm waiting for the cabin door to close, flying east to clean out Sparky. This is bittersweet, we have loved that boat, sailed her hard and she has always behaved flawlessly. She was our forever boat, but we didn't see this coming, and I just couldn't turn it down.

Someone will get a great SW-42.

If I may ask, where will Restive's home port be?

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21 hours ago, Rasputin22 said:

     I have never been fond of the look of that particular roller furling boom (sorry KDH) but it has never looked so much like the telephone pole that it was modeled after than it does on the Hellenberg design. Other than that you got a keeper. 

    Lots of rake to those spreaders for such a traditional looking boat. Ask Bob has any spare Offshore booms like on the Carbon cutter laying around. I think that they can be fitted with in boom roller furling too but at a cost. 

I never have either, so I replaced it with a custom carbon shell from Offshore Spars.

4Yx199M.jpg

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On 10/6/2017 at 6:39 PM, Norm said:

 Nice boat KDH - i think i will use your model of ownership.. .. what is it ? 

Hinckley Sou'wester 42.

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9 hours ago, Mr. Ed said:

Can you share with us the nature of the steering issues on Restive, and how they were later resolved?

 

E

Restive lost the top rudder bearing due to dry rot. The boat was recovered without sinking and rebuilt and re-launched successfully.

The underwater profile is the BOMB!! 

Glad my dream boat went to a good home!!

IMG_5980.JPG

IMG_5981.JPG

IMG_5982.JPG

IMG_5983.JPG

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CL, congrats on your sweet new ride, she looks like a beautiful boat. I'm afraid it's going to be a long winter for you. 

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I also found one great boat to "admire". Hopefully nobody sunk with that one. On the other hand this one is as anarchy as it can get. :D

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^^Oooooh no Sam

You’ve committed some majorly sins by posting in here!!

First up no pics of titties of your loved one/ones… and even worse you’ve linked to a MoBo/MV manufacturing site.

WHAT WERE YOU THINKING?

It would seriously help if what you post in this thread has (a. sails…(b. is made of wood and looks very retro…and finally (c. is American nauti designer penned…

So f#ck off and ponder your mistakes

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16 hours ago, Sail4beer said:

Restive lost the top rudder bearing due to dry rot. The boat was recovered without sinking and rebuilt and re-launched successfully.

The underwater profile is the BOMB!! 

Glad my dream boat went to a good home!!

IMG_5980.JPG

IMG_5981.JPG

 

IMG_5983.JPG

CL, was there ever any indication that the failure was just use and time that resulted in water intrusion and rot? Or was it determined the design needed some changing? Or was the problem in the building process? 

Obviously with a spade rudder you need lots of area for bearing, either in one long shot(tube), or as in this case, a lower and upper bearing. Looks like the upper bearing was tied into the cockpit and cockpit sole?

It's a beautiful boat and I can see how that failure wouldn't show much (any) warning. 

  

5 hours ago, Bryanjb said:

Kris, congrats on your GOB article, well done!

Thanks, Bryan! 

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1 hour ago, Rasputin22 said:

KDH,

   Nice job with that boom facelift! Same guts as before?

Well, it was going to be. But Offshore are not far from Detroit where there is a thriving salvage industry. Best guess is my original boom was stolen off the truck as it was being shipped out there and was sold as scrap.

The guts we were going to use had to be replaced, obviously. No insurance. But all's well that ends well.

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If we're going MoBo...

1927 3-cyl Atlas diesel. IDK if it's supposed to run that rough. But it still runs...

 

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LOUISA, I couldn't figure out what she was. Big boat, pretty, contemporary - sort of, clean, slick. 

What confused me is that she has been on the hard on jack stands getting a brush applied coat of topsides paint. Nice finish! The underbody didn't look that old and I would have thought she was glass until I could see a piece of planking had been sanded down, below the water line. Plank on frame?

Finally at the docks last night, I got a look at her. A yawl. Is that a yawl?

37379781670_5b8b00bdf0_b.jpg

 I later found she was brushed with Alexseal. Amazing finish! 

 

37605961092_b6533dd674_h.jpg

There was a nagging feeling I knew what she was,... The cabin house (which is getting a maintenance coat of varnish) seemed familiar. The port shape,...seen that somewhere. Note the ports are sliders, and the trim is wooden, fine and shapely. 

Finally discovered today, that she's Italian! Of course! Built at the Sangermani yard about 50 years ago. I'm too used to classic boats, New England style.

50 year old NE style does NOT look like Italian style 50 years old. Expand,...

I love most anything Italian, especially their unique design style. You don't like it? There's an Italian hand gesture just for you. 

36967180693_40e1b62217_b.jpg

 

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That's a yawl. Gorgeous and that brushed paint is amazing - better than many, if not most spray jobs.

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The boom with 'ladder' extensions either side has the same function without the visual bulk of a 'v' boom

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"Gunner Working up to Fowl." 1887   Note right hand on oar and left hand near trigger. Boom! I can hear the quacking now.

59de9e9d54986_shootingskiff.thumb.jpg.b2a8aca61000991f0cb4cb177f65eade.jpg

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3 hours ago, Jaramaz said:

how do you see that without seeing the rudder stock?

Good Guesser? ;)

The mizzen is too small to likely be a ketch and it would have to have an outboard rudder or the next best thing to it to be aft of that mizzen.

No guarantees but I'd be very surprised if it was a ketch.

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Cool mobos....

here is a clip of Miss America X. Gar Wood  owned powerboat racing in the 20s and 30s, before turning the operation over to his son. He had become wealthy as an inventor...he invented the hydraulic dump bed for trucks, and the hydraulic compactor for garbage trucks. Same approach to his hobby, continually experimenting and testing new ideas. In Miss America IX he broke the 100 mph barrier. When the British brought Rolls Royce aboard for a new challange, Wood responded by building Miss America X and doubling the HP by adding two additional Packard V-12s. Each pair was coupled together to make a V-24 and drove a shaft. Wood custom designed the gearboxes to handle the power....well over 6000hp total. Boat exceeded 125 mph.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OcPYzUDrpUM

 

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These days 800hp rather than 6000hp of angry metal will get you into that speed club.

No one has nicked the Aussie's record in almost 40 years... not many speed records last like that.

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