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Coolboats to admire

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They looks like oversized versions of the 15’ Delaware River Tuckup with underhung rudders. I passed on one last summer:(

442E7A91-38DE-4DB5-A82F-D9FC8C8EAAAF.jpeg

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5 hours ago, Presuming Ed said:

Back to cool boats. A Norman Dallimore 33' cutter. For sale , listed by Barney Sandeman.

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(Like the dog!)

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That is cool all over. Thanks

Norman Dallimore's grandson is involved in trying to restore one of his grandfather's odder boats, the oyster dredger Vanguard, which is the last surviving one of the three vessels from our town that went to Dunkirk. She's initially an odd looking thing, to my eye, but grows on you more and more. Built as a motor powered oyster dredger, the commissioning owner pointed to one of Dallimore's yacht designs and said he wanted a bow like that. 

We'll be coming after the SA community to throw a few shillings in the hat for her restoration shortly! She's in a very bad state now, but is safe.

A bit more here https://www.vanguardtrust.org/

vanguard.jpg.980aaef32f09814f2b1a64ce7c3d88e4.jpg 

 

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6 hours ago, Presuming Ed said:

Back to cool boats. A Norman Dallimore 33' cutter. For sale , listed by Barney Sandeman.

0x0_458_200731652859c3f2cdada9b.jpg

0x0_458_168620432059c3f2d108229.jpg

(Like the dog!)

0x0_458_16426394459c3f2bfa9514.jpg

 

 

 

That is a lovely, lovely boat. Tiller, narrowish beam. I love the slender Charlie Noble.

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4 hours ago, Bull City said:

That is a lovely, lovely boat. Tiller, narrowish beam. I love the slender Charlie Noble.

Lovely boat, and with a perfect boat dog. Hard kit to find. 

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On 4/14/2018 at 10:00 AM, Kris Cringle said:

Lovely boat, and with a perfect boat dog. Hard kit to find. 

23159348966_e8a2284288_h.jpg

The mate looks like an interesting, wiry character. 

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While going through my old backup DVD's, I came across some photo's of a schooner I came very close to buying many years ago.  For me, this boat certainly fits into the Cool Boats I admire category.

I don't remember most of the particulars, but it was built sometime in the very late 1800's.

Schooner.jpg.0b3d048b00ca3d2250680d3cc9e21d97.jpg

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On 4/13/2018 at 10:53 AM, Sail4beer said:

They looks like oversized versions of the 15’ Delaware River Tuckup with underhung rudders. I passed on one last summer:(

442E7A91-38DE-4DB5-A82F-D9FC8C8EAAAF.jpeg

And you didn't point any of us to it on the Craigslist Finds thread??!? Shame on you......

Although I shouldn't complain, I've managed to resist a fair bunch of sandbaggers that have been offered up the last few years. I would LOVE to have & sail a sandbagger, it would please my grandfather's ghost too.

FB- Doug

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I think someone else got to it before I did. My old boss John Brady built it and was a museum piece for years.

missed a flatiron skiff by a day as well..

When I see any goodies I’ll put them up for sure!

Heres a link for the Tuckup 

http://traditionalsmallcraft.com/Tuckups/index.html

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3 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

And you didn't point any of us to it on the Craigslist Finds thread??!? Shame on you......

Although I shouldn't complain, I've managed to resist a fair bunch of sandbaggers that have been offered up the last few years. I would LOVE to have & sail a sandbagger, it would please my grandfather's ghost too.

FB- Doug

Come to Naps where Bull and Bear reside!

 

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The Bull and Bear, 2 more John Brady boats.  The owner flew a bunch of his employees down from NYC while I was working at the Independence Seaport Museum in Philadelphia. They all dropped their briefcases in our coat room and headed out on the Delaware River in the Sandbaggers. Both flipped and returned later with soaked executives in business suits. I guess he didn’t tell them which boats they were going on and they had visions of New York 40’s and Grey Poupon. :lol: 

Looked at this little gem a couple of months ago. 1937 Rhodes Arrowhead class sloop-20’. It’s now abandoned and I dumpster dove and recovered the boom and spinnaker pole ( one end missing off of each to ensure I’m pissed off now) and seems it’s about $1500 cheaper now. 

Now do I pick it up for restoration or should I be smart and never look at it again. Keep in mind that I’m trying to get rid of boats and have 13 now with a few in varying stages of restoration/zombie mode.

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EA5A0BEA-1C1C-4696-A4D0-80DDA539831F.jpeg

6D5A1E14-F2A0-4798-B547-439CAC02DD74.jpeg

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7 minutes ago, Sail4beer said:

The Bull and Bear, 2 more John Brady boats.  The owner flew a bunch of his employees down from NYC while I was working at the Independence Seaport Museum in Philadelphia. They all dropped their briefcases in our coat room and headed out on the Delaware River in the Sandbaggers. Both flipped and returned later with soaked executives in business suits. I guess he didn’t tell them which boats they were going on and they had visions of New York 40’s and Grey Poupon. :lol: 

Looked at this little gem a couple of months ago. 1937 Rhodes Arrowhead class sloop-20’. It’s now abandoned and I dumpster dove and recovered the boom and spinnaker pole ( one end missing off of each to ensure I’m pissed off now) and seems it’s about $1500 cheaper now. 

Now do I pick it up for restoration or should I be smart and never look at it again. Keep in mind that I’m trying to get rid of boats and have 13 now with a few in varying stages of restoration/zombie mode.

00883433-81AC-4DF0-BF23-0C9507FEE686.jpeg

EA5A0BEA-1C1C-4696-A4D0-80DDA539831F.jpeg

6D5A1E14-F2A0-4798-B547-439CAC02DD74.jpeg

Nice, but....  Move along, don't stop, eyes forward....

 

That's better.  Good job.  You can do it....

 

NOPE!  I said DON"T look back!  Eyes forward.....

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14 minutes ago, Veeger said:

Nice, but....  Move along, don't stop, eyes forward....

 

That's better.  Good job.  You can do it....

 

NOPE!  I said DON"T look back!  Eyes forward.....

Too late.

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I saw that Alfred Loomis' HOTSPUR is for sale. A cool boat with quite a history.

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OK, so definitely a rich man's toy. But, IMHO, mostly (*) cool - if you're going to have a boat for singlehanded daysailing, 60' is doing it in style. Ciao Gianni, by German Frers.  A development of the earlier Saskia Too. Ciao is for sale:

http://www.yachtworld.co.uk/boats/2009/Multiplast-German-Frers-60-CIAO-GIANNI-2983567/Italy

* IMNSHO, I'm not 100% about the inverted bow. I'm a bit yes-but-no-but.

Multiplast_yacht_for_sale_Ciao-gianni_2365.jpg.9945ae8d1f8b8da0c73a45c417fcf532.jpg

Multiplast_yacht_for_sale_Ciao-gianni_2369.jpg.2e0bb1c20651409874913d4e4b782706.jpg

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large_1835466.jpg.758cc17482ffb252796a4fc49fc4fcef.jpg

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Definitely for sailing as the interior is decidedly, umm, basic....

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13 minutes ago, Veeger said:

Definitely for sailing as the interior is decidedly, umm, basic....

Functional, but not very inviting. I think that's the head hiding behind the bulkhead. A bit bleak for my taste.

5859784_20160804020033168_1_XLARGE.jpg&w

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A big not cool. Sorry.

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I kinda like it but I can think of better ways of spending a $Mil.

Needs more deck hardware. :D

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I think I’ll take the Fareast28R and R/C it with a little Ken Doll.

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11 hours ago, Veeger said:

Definitely for sailing as the interior is decidedly, umm, basic....

 

11 hours ago, Ishmael said:

Functional, but not very inviting. I think that's the head hiding behind the bulkhead. A bit bleak for my taste.

In the same way that the average Bugatti owner has 84 cars, 3 jets and a (motor super)yacht, if you want a boat with an interior, you take your Perini Navi. This is just a toy. 

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Two wheels? F**k you! :P

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19 hours ago, Presuming Ed said:

 

In the same way that the average Bugatti owner has 84 cars, 3 jets and a (motor super)yacht, if you want a boat with an interior, you take your Perini Navi. This is just a toy. 

I think Ed is exactly on the money about the ambivalence one feels about the size of toys. These uber day sailors have definitely got a bit weird, like this one:

yacht

Spirit of tradition? Really?

But back to Ciao Gianni, it sent me down a strange internet tunnel I'd done once before, stalking the owner, who seems to have escaped from a late 20thC version of The Great Gatsby. By the name of Jack, or Jacques Setton, he got through his Ferrari stage (built his own racetrack to run them on), to conventional superyachts and some real oddities. A recent one was very endearing - called PInk Shrimp, it was a Pacificy type fishing vessel that he converted into a modestly super yacht. I very much like the idea of taking it to the Eurotrash in Portofino and Elba with this:Image result for "jack setton" "pink shrimp"

 He also had Andre Mauric design him a very big ULDB sort of thing, which he saved money on by powering with a pair of outboards. 

 

0mhrrdaSF2lOWo1pPBhz_amaalta-sailing-yac

 

 

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2 hours ago, Mr. Ed said:

I think Ed is exactly on the money about the ambivalence one feels about the size of toys. These uber day sailors have definitely got a bit weird, like this one:

yacht

Spirit of tradition? Really?

Yeah, that boat never made much sense to me.

0x0_418_118522056759c3dea613a01.jpg

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On 19/4/2018 at 3:19 PM, Presuming Ed said:

OK, so definitely a rich man's toy. But, IMHO, mostly (*) cool - if you're going to have a boat for singlehanded daysailing, 60' is doing it in style. Ciao Gianni, by German Frers.  A development of the earlier Saskia Too. Ciao is for sale:

http://www.yachtworld.co.uk/boats/2009/Multiplast-German-Frers-60-CIAO-GIANNI-2983567/Italy

Ignore the money for a moment. What kind of soul needs a 60 singlehanded daysailer?

That is very sad.

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Kim and Francis would differ with you.

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1 hour ago, SloopJonB said:

Kim and Francis would differ with you.

Ouch.  I like Kim and I adore Francis.

I just hadn't thought of Francis as a singlehander.

I'll have to think about this ... but I guess my failure to connect the two is that while Francis  is evidently capable of solo use, Kim has never plugged Francis  as a singlehander ... and all the pics I have seen of her sailing have had several people enjoying her.

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The "NED 2" daysailer looks pretty nice to me, for the same reason Francis does: long, slender, low freeboard, and most important, a tiller. I don't see it as a singlehander. I don't think I would buy one if I had 295 Euros to spend on a boat.

 

 

 

 

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8 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

Ignore the money for a moment. What kind of soul needs a 60 singlehanded daysailer?

That is very sad.

The sort of guy who wants to be able to say “It’s a nice afternoon, I’m off for a sail”, and not worry about sorting out crew. 

Id be in that club in a second, if I could. 

 

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19 minutes ago, Presuming Ed said:

The sort of guy who wants to be able to say “It’s a nice afternoon, I’m off for a sail”, and not worry about sorting out crew. 

Id be in that club in a second, if I could. 

 

But do you need 60 feet?

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4 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

Ouch.  I like Kim and I adore Francis.

I just hadn't thought of Francis as a singlehander.

I'll have to think about this ... but I guess my failure to connect the two is that while Francis  is evidently capable of solo use, Kim has never plugged Francis  as a singlehander ... and all the pics I have seen of her sailing have had several people enjoying her.

The few times I've singlehanded our big girl is the greatest fun. Our insurance company must have seen me, for we've now got an interdiction, except for the specific purpose of bringing it off the swinging mooring to the pontoon!

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There’s a power and elegance to big boats that you don’t get with smaller LOA. Longer = less affected by waves.

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18 hours ago, Presuming Ed said:

There’s a power and elegance to big boats that you don’t get with smaller LOA. Longer = less affected by waves.

Good point, and usually more speed.

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I'm sorry. I was just making a vinaigrette, and thought of this. I won't do it again.

5ade48a759a53_greypoupon.jpg.0a55622d5e062da37c6bd73cde5d7437.jpg

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On 23.4.2018 at 12:57 AM, Presuming Ed said:

There’s a power and elegance to big boats that you don’t get with smaller LOA. Longer = less affected by waves.

Au contraire, regarding elegance at least.

BM23%20Anker%20von%20hinten.jpg

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On 4/22/2018 at 9:51 AM, TwoLegged said:

Ouch.  I like Kim and I adore Francis.

I just hadn't thought of Francis as a singlehander.

I'll have to think about this ... but I guess my failure to connect the two is that while Francis  is evidently capable of solo use, Kim has never plugged Francis  as a singlehander ... and all the pics I have seen of her sailing have had several people enjoying her.

It is difficult to take her out solo because I really like my wife of 50 years and I also really like her brother who loves to sail. Then there are our two sons who like to sail and we haven’t even gotten into the long list of volunteers who want to sail aboard.

For the record I have single handed her and I am comfortable doing so. But it is ever so much more fun sharing the experience of FRANCIS LEE with others.

I do not think of her as a solo boat, I think of her as a joy to sail.

Come visit us Twoer and we will let you drive.

I spent the today spring cleaning her, (FRANCIS not SWMBO.)

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39 minutes ago, Matagi said:

Au contraire, regarding elegance at least.

BM23%20Anker%20von%20hinten.jpg

I love that boat!

 

On 4/22/2018 at 2:20 PM, Bull City said:

But do you need 60 feet?

Yeah, I really do.......

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2 hours ago, kimbottles said:

For the record I have single handed her and I am comfortable doing so. But it is ever so much more fun sharing the experience of FRANCIS LEE with others.

I do not think of her as a solo boat, I think of her as a joy to sail.

That's kinda how I thought of her; solo-able, but not designed with that as the goal.  But all about the joy of sailing

2 hours ago, kimbottles said:

Come visit us Twoer and we will let you drive.

Thank you muchly!  That is  a v generous invite.

It would be a thrill to see Frankie in the flesh, and a pleasure to meet you and Susan ... and  a huge privilege to drive the coolest boat ever

 

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Wow, Matagi!

What is that beauty?   It looks near perfect.  I'm in love!

3 hours ago, Matagi said:
On 22/4/2018 at 11:57 PM, Presuming Ed said:

There’s a power and elegance to big boats that you don’t get with smaller LOA. Longer = less affected by waves.

Au contraire, regarding elegance at least.

BM23%20Anker%20von%20hinten.jpg

 

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3 hours ago, kimbottles said:

Yeah, I really do.......

Kim, you are an exception because you have a tiller, and I forgot the point anyway.

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On 21/04/2018 at 9:41 AM, Mr. Ed said:

 

 

0mhrrdaSF2lOWo1pPBhz_amaalta-sailing-yac

 

Sistership of Kriter 8 , she was named Pioneer

Kriter 8 won the Route du Rhum ( 1st monohull ) with Michel Malinovsky

 

 

On 21/04/2018 at 9:41 AM, Mr. Ed said:

 

 

K8.jpg

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Just now, Puntone said:

 

Sistership of Kriter 8 , she was named Pioneer

Kriter 8 won the Route du Rhum ( 1st monohull ) with Michel Malinovsky

 

 

 

K8.jpg

 

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2 hours ago, Puntone said:

Kriter 8 won the Route du Rhum ( 1st monohull ) with Michel Malinovsky

With the contemporary dominance of IMOCAs, plus Open 60s and other blunt-ended flying saucers, it feels like  several lifetime since a slim cigar of a boat could be a contender.

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On 09/03/2018 at 6:01 AM, kinardly said:

I'm wondering shouldn't there be knees or something to reinforce the hull at the point of the oarlocks? Is that thwart close enough to do the job?

Howdy,

Lots of them built over 20 odd years, so the structure seems fine. The gunwale and inwale despite looking quite light is quite wide providing a massive beam on top of the light ply sides.

MIK

Joost Rowing Caledonia RAID.jpg

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This is a cool boat. Recently - extensively, restored, 1938 Alden motorsailer. TRADE WINDS has room for a piano (I think I saw one in there), a bathtub, it's a very plush house on the sea. Gale force trade winds from behind, are where it sails very well. It's for sale for 2.8 mil. Just launched: 

tradewinds-jpg.149426

You get some great extra's with this old beauty. I remember the tenders. One was a small tiller steered launch with a diesel, the other a freshly built (at Rockport Marine) Lawley tender, that was beautiful. 

trade-winds-tenders-1-of-1-jpg.149427

I just imagined my wife and I owning this boat. Docking up with people around, we would both be in hysterics. It doesn't fit, we're just not tucked in for this. But it is nice and I hope it finds a good home. The selling price, when it finally settles, will be a deal compared to the extensive project cost. I think it took more than 2 years. 

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On 3/9/2018 at 11:11 AM, Bull City said:

I did. Thank you.

Awesome

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12 hours ago, Puntone said:

 

Sistership of Kriter 8 , she was named Pioneer

if memory serves me, pioneer was originally powered by a couple of outbards, instead of a diesel inboard.

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10 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

With the contemporary dominance of IMOCAs, plus Open 60s and other blunt-ended flying saucers, it feels like  several lifetime since a slim cigar of a boat could be a contender.

The saucers are only competitive because the racing rules limit aggressively length.

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1 hour ago, Trovão said:

if memory serves me, pioneer was originally powered by a couple of outbards, instead of a diesel inboard.

True

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14 hours ago, Panoramix said:

The saucers are only competitive because the racing rules limit aggressively length.

I'm not so sure, Pano.

Look at the Wikipedia list of Route du Rhum finishing times:

1978 Overall 2nd place: Kriter V     23d 7h 01'13"

2014 IMOCA 60 2nd place: Maitre Coq    12d 12h 11'18"

If long cigar monos were still in the game, could they really have halved their time?

Even in 2002 (well before the foils era), the 2nd-placed IMOCA 60 was Ecover:    13d 22h 49'35"

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1 hour ago, TwoLegged said:

I'm not so sure, Pano.

Look at the Wikipedia list of Route du Rhum finishing times:

1978 Overall 2nd place: Kriter V     23d 7h 01'13"

2014 IMOCA 60 2nd place: Maitre Coq    12d 12h 11'18"

If long cigar monos were still in the game, could they really have halved their time?

Even in 2002 (well before the foils era), the 2nd-placed IMOCA 60 was Ecover:    13d 22h 49'35"

Yes and no... Trouble with this approach is that the rules skew the kind of boats which participate. If you enter the route du rhum, you try to get a boat that plays well with the rules.

On the other hand, 36.15 met and Helvim were marginally slower than the wide boats of their era despite being the same length. When VDH failed to win the VG, everybody came to the conclusion that a wide boat was necessary to be a fast IMOCA. If you have a box rule like for minis or IMOCAs that allows a lot of sail area for the length, good designers (now) know that one needs as much power as possible (so as much beam as possible) even at the expense of extra drag to carry this sail area as long as possible especially when reaching. But if sail area was more constrained, going for the minimal drag option might well work. Imagine a class that limits sail area to what a mini carries with a maximum length of 40 feet for instance. I might be wrong but I think that different kind of boats would come out and if I had the opportunity to enter I think that I would go for a narrow boat as the wide boat would stay stuck in light winds.

 

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4 hours ago, Panoramix said:

Yes and no... Trouble with this approach is that the rules skew the kind of boats which participate. If you enter the route du rhum, you try to get a boat that plays well with the rules.

On the other hand, 36.15 met and Helvim were marginally slower than the wide boats of their era despite being the same length. When VDH failed to win the VG, everybody came to the conclusion that a wide boat was necessary to be a fast IMOCA. If you have a box rule like for minis or IMOCAs that allows a lot of sail area for the length, good designers (now) know that one needs as much power as possible (so as much beam as possible) even at the expense of extra drag to carry this sail area as long as possible especially when reaching. But if sail area was more constrained, going for the minimal drag option might well work. Imagine a class that limits sail area to what a mini carries with a maximum length of 40 feet for instance. I might be wrong but I think that different kind of boats would come out and if I had the opportunity to enter I think that I would go for a narrow boat as the wide boat would stay stuck in light winds.

Sure, any sort of box rule skews entries.  But imagine a race where the only limit was sail area, with any monohull beneath it.  Optimist, IMOCA-style fattie, or 100'-long cigar; you choose.

In an upwind race like OSTAR, the long-narrow boat would have the advantage of waterline and low drag.

But on a predominantly offwind race like Vendee Globe or Route du Rhum, the wide boat has the advantage in all but the light winds because it can plane at multiples of hull speed. A 90' LWL boat has a hull-speed limit of 12.5 knots, whereas a 40' saucer can plane away at over 20 knots.

Maitre Coq's 2014 time of 12d 12h 11'18" is an average of 11.8 knots VMG.  It's v hard to see the cigar sustaining such an average.

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32 minutes ago, TwoLegged said:

Sure, any sort of box rule skews entries.  But imagine a race where the only limit was sail area, with any monohull beneath it.  Optimist, IMOCA-style fattie, or 100'-long cigar; you choose.

In an upwind race like OSTAR, the long-narrow boat would have the advantage of waterline and low drag.

But on a predominantly offwind race like Vendee Globe or Route du Rhum, the wide boat has the advantage in all but the light winds because it can plane at multiples of hull speed. A 90' LWL boat has a hull-speed limit of 12.5 knots, whereas a 40' saucer can plane away at over 20 knots.

Maitre Coq's 2014 time of 12d 12h 11'18" is an average of 11.8 knots VMG.  It's v hard to see the cigar sustaining such an average.

You might be right but to be honest I would need to see to be entirely convinced. A light cigar can also plane. In the 90s I've raced in a fleet where there was a 11m OD, thank god they had a very bad TCC because in some downwind conditions they were just really fast. 

I have nothing against wide boats btw, I just think that it's just one configuration that works well, but not the only one. 

Can't remember where it was but there were talks that thanks to foils, next IMOCA generation would narrow. 

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On 4/25/2018 at 5:34 PM, Matagi said:

Au contraire, regarding elegance at least.

BM23%20Anker%20von%20hinten.jpg

Too pretty. I just want to put it in a dark room with a nitrogen atmosphere. Taking it out in the sun and salt is out of the question.

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Leggs:

Don't forget that "saucer" shaped boats, when heeled just a few degrees can reduce WS dramatically and present a very narrow BWL to the water giving them very good light air boat speed. Some people here get stick in 2D thinking. It's a 3D world.

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Sounds like the science behind the Lord Board That NA Lindsay Lloyd invented way back. Heeling the board dramatically increased the speed across the wave face, etc. I’m going to have to look up the equation now.

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5 hours ago, Bob Perry said:

Leggs:

Don't forget that "saucer" shaped boats, when heeled just a few degrees can reduce WS dramatically and present a very narrow BWL to the water giving them very good light air boat speed. Some people here get stick in 2D thinking. It's a 3D world.

good point, Bob.  Finot used to have a handy graphic illustrating that.

I guess with water ballast and/or canting keel, you can get useful heel even in ghosting conditions.

So what do you think? If the box rule was simply i) monohull; ii) fixed sail area limit ... would you design saucer or slim?  Or in-between?

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On 4/27/2018 at 8:37 AM, TwoLegged said:

..........................A 90' LWL boat has a hull-speed limit of 12.5 knots, whereas a 40' saucer can plane away at over 20 knots...............

How is it then that FRANCIS LEE with a LWL of 55’ easily exceeds 12.5 knots and does it often?

And this in Puget Sound where there are no real waves to Surf, often under just main and jib and under 20AWS.

I bet she would really scoot in the tradewinds.

(I guess Bob deserves his Maestro title, he sure got this design right.)

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Leggs:

Be careful with using that static "hull speed" formula. There are a few variables that can alter the result dramatically as Kim has just explained.

In a box rule with LOA and SA as the only limits I think I'd go wide and light and rely, as you point out, on canting ballast to get the right Rm, + or -, for the conditions. But if it were truly a wide open box rule you would have to consider foiling and that would require a boat that can easily get up to near planing speeds so moderate proportions would not cut it.

I wish some group would use a rule like that.

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13 hours ago, Uncooperative Tom said:

Too pretty. I just want to put it in a dark room with a nitrogen atmosphere. Taking it out in the sun and salt is out of the question.

Mark Patty built a Lightning (19' cb dinghy) using the West system, and coated it in mahogany veneer with bright epoxy finish.  It was gorgeous, like a piano. 

People would ask how he could take it out and bang around racing, risking that beauty?

And he replied:  "I can sit it in the living room and drink coffee off it, or I can go sailing"

 

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33 minutes ago, kimbottles said:

How is it then that FRANCIS LEE with a LWL of 55’ easily exceeds 12.5 knots and does it often?

And this in Puget Sound where there are no real waves to Surf, often under just main and jib and under 20AWS.

Kim, what sort of speeds are you able to peak and sustain?

If anyone had the time and inclination to do , it would be fascinating to see a plot of Frankie's polars vs those of an Open 60 and/or a Class 40

33 minutes ago, kimbottles said:

(I guess Bob deserves his Maestro title, he sure got this design right.)

Aye, he sure did.

Aesthetically, she's a knockout.  But even without seeing a knotmeter, those photos of almost no wake shout that there is something special going on with the water flow around that hull.

My crude notion of Froude's work on l/b ratios was that the LWL hull speed formula became redundant at a L/B ratio somewhere between 10 and 13, when wavemaking ceased to be a constraint which requires a high-energy transition to a planing mode.

Frankie's L/B is only 6, so she's well short of what I thought was the magic zone.  I may well have totally misunderstood the Froude-for-dummies guide I read ... but am I an eejit to guess that Frankie's speeds in the teens may be some sort of hybrid of climb-on-the bow-wave planing and don't need to climb there?

Bob gently points out to me that these constraints can vary dramatically.  I guess I'm even further away than I thought from a toehold on the foothills of hydrodynamics ... and Bob has sure cracked some magic with Frankie

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We averaged around 12.5 knots through the water in the 2010 PacCup in a 10.5’ wide 41 footer with a sailing weight of about 11,000 pounds.

I don’t think we went under hull speed once we got past Point Bonita.

Just a data point.

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Frank Kinney once noted that Tempest (Kialoa III sister) had done over 17 knots - way beyond hull speed and not surfing.

True 1.34 LWL hull speed would seem to be only really applicable to Tugs and their elk.

image.png.51190666ec947f0707df9ff14d570e1e.png

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On 4/25/2018 at 5:34 PM, Matagi said:

Au contraire, regarding elegance at least.

BM23%20Anker%20von%20hinten.jpg

That is a lovely boat! What is it? Tell us more.

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5 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

...Finot used to have a handy graphic illustrating that...

 

 

 

I still remember reading this in Voiles et Voiliers donkey years ago thinking wow!

arrierlargea2b2.JPG

 

Here is an article http://www.finot.com/ecrits/ecritgroupe/questionmois/arrierelarge.htm

He specifically says that a wide hull can be at a disadvantage if the sail area is restricted by the rule the boat is built to.

This understanding of wide boats made him successful in the Vendée Globe.

 

 

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On 25/4/2018 at 11:34 PM, Matagi said:

Au contraire, regarding elegance at least.

BM23%20Anker%20von%20hinten.jpg

Achingly beautiful.

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Another 15 degrees of slope on that transom and I would be happy...

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On 4/26/2018 at 2:48 PM, Puntone said:

 

Sistership of Kriter 8 , she was named Pioneer

Kriter 8 won the Route du Rhum ( 1st monohull ) with Michel Malinovsky

 

 

 

K8.jpg

Wow that mast is a loong way forward. Not much buoyancy forward to stop it tripping over.

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8 hours ago, Panoramix said:

I still remember reading this in Voiles et Voiliers donkey years ago thinking wow!

arrierlargea2b2.JPG

 

Here is an article http://www.finot.com/ecrits/ecritgroupe/questionmois/arrierelarge.htm

He specifically says that a wide hull can be at a disadvantage if the sail area is restricted by the rule the boat is built to.

This understanding of wide boats made him successful in the Vendée Globe.

 

 

Also, as you can see in the illustration, saucer shaped boats will also present less positive incidence of the keel to the direction of travel, resulting in poorer upwind ability.   That is usually mitigated by adding port and starboard daggerboards with incidence adjusted for heeled hull direction through the water. 

More of that 3d stuff getting in the way.

- Stumbling

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Stumble:

On some racing boats you can change angle of attack with fore and aft trim. You can't change angle of incidence but it's angle of attack that is important.

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I just want to grab that tarp from that other boat and cover it.

13 hours ago, Kirwan said:

Mark Patty built a Lightning (19' cb dinghy) using the West system, and coated it in mahogany veneer with bright epoxy finish.  It was gorgeous, like a piano. 

People would ask how he could take it out and bang around racing, risking that beauty?

And he replied:  "I can sit it in the living room and drink coffee off it, or I can go sailing"

 

Yeah, I know. I still want to grab that tarp and cover it.

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I love the simplicity of the deck lay-out, among many other things.

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3 hours ago, Bob Perry said:

Stumble:

On some racing boats you can change angle of attack with fore and aft trim. You can't change angle of incidence but it's angle of attack that is important.

Agreed.   My momentary vocabulary recall escaped me at the time, keel/lifting surface angle of attack was what I was trying to allude to.

By the way, I am a great fan of both your design work as well as the Sailing Magazine design evaluation article series you write.

- Stumbling

 

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Bull City said:

I was reminded of this one... 

http://www.biehlmarin.com/mediapool/3/35906/data/Daysailer/Biehl-88-ENG-20110113a.pdf

(okay, so my link methodology failed... I'll work on it)

Edited by Veeger

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Thanks Stumbling.

I use both terms but I use "angle of incidence" to describe the foils attitude to the main body, i.e. the hull. I use "angle of attack" to describe the foils attitude the flow.

In the end it's all about angle of attack. With a gybing board, like you find in many dinghies, I think angle of incidence can be varied.  But with a fixed keel not varied.

How does that sound?

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23 hours ago, stumblingthunder said:

Also, as you can see in the illustration, saucer shaped boats will also present less positive incidence of the keel to the direction of travel, resulting in poorer upwind ability.   That is usually mitigated by adding port and starboard daggerboards with incidence adjusted for heeled hull direction through the water. 

More of that 3d stuff getting in the way.

- Stumbling

Yes, very true. The heeled hull is not in the same axis as the keel which creates extra drag. AFAIK the boat travels in the same direction as a narrow one, it is just that the hull as heeled (longitudinal axis in blue on the drawing) travels at an angle. This drawing is very old and at the time the IMOCA were shaped like a wedge. Later the max beam started to move forward to reduce the angle between the heel hull axis and the keel longitudinal axis. As the IMOCAs hull shapes evolved there were more articles in Voiles et Voiliers explaining this, sadly I can't find sketches similar to the one above online explaining this point.

Ultimately the scows have more or less solved this issue as the angle becomes much smaller.

I find all this really interesting, it is fascinating to see how they manage to slowly get better hull shapes. TBHO that's the only part of sailing magazines which keep me interested.

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On 4/29/2018 at 6:12 AM, Bull City said:

I once saw a 6 Meter done just like that at Port Townsend. It was as perfect as any piano I've ever seen.

I couldn't understand how they could bear to get it wet.

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On 4/22/2018 at 9:39 PM, Bull City said:

The "NED 2" daysailer looks pretty nice to me, for the same reason Francis does: long, slender, low freeboard, and most important, a tiller. I don't see it as a singlehander. I don't think I would buy one if I had 295 Euros to spend on a boat.

 

 

 

 

If I keep buying your paintings, you might start shopping for something that does appeal to you.

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On 4/26/2018 at 3:03 AM, TwoLegged said:

That's kinda how I thought of her; solo-able, but not designed with that as the goal.  But all about the joy of sailing

Thank you muchly!  That is  a v generous invite.

It would be a thrill to see Frankie in the flesh, and a pleasure to meet you and Susan ... and  a huge privilege to drive the coolest boat ever

 

If there was ever a boat built expressly for the joy of sailing, I think Frankie is it.

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Got a picture of a picture of Mark's boat...

 

IMG_4441.JPG

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53 minutes ago, Baldur said:

Not the typical boat we post here. But she is very well done, not one of those BS fake pirate ships. I could see myself living aboard something like this.

 https://bellingham.craigslist.org/boa/6568074814.html

It would be great as long as you didn't want to go sailing.

Rosborough used to build stuff like that in Nova Scotia but he used crappy wood so I doubt many have survived.

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6 hours ago, Panoramix said:

Yes, very true. The heeled hull is not in the same axis as the keel which creates extra drag. AFAIK the boat travels in the same direction as a narrow one, it is just that the hull as heeled (longitudinal axis in blue on the drawing) travels at an angle. This drawing is very old and at the time the IMOCA were shaped like a wedge. Later the max beam started to move forward to reduce the angle between the heel hull axis and the keel longitudinal axis. As the IMOCAs hull shapes evolved there were more articles in Voiles et Voiliers explaining this, sadly I can't find sketches similar to the one above online explaining this point.

Ultimately the scows have more or less solved this issue as the angle becomes much smaller.

I find all this really interesting, it is fascinating to see how they manage to slowly get better hull shapes. TBHO that's the only part of sailing magazines which keep me interested.

This is also seen in the Mini Transat 6.50s, where the scow bow has appeared.   Again, tradeoffs.   Trading a more efficient underwater presence heeling for angles reaching to running as well as earlier planing, for a less sleek upwind presentation.

Fast but looks to be a rough ride planing.

I just read that the IMCOA 60 class has a measurement rule that effectively prevents scow like bow designs.  Class 40 has not moved that way, but I am not aware at this instant of a Class 40 scow bow boat.

- Stumbling

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@stumblingthunder, I think that the class 40 has also prevented scow bows. It is an owner class, they don't want all their boats superseded by a scow.

 

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