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Lasers - Applying a Blow Torch

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A Laser is not an ILCA legal Laser unless it is on an area where its builder has the rights to the insignia and the name Laser

 

Please can you provide me with some reference for this. I checked the class rules and cannot find anything. I know of boats bought and delivered in one country that are now in countries where the builder doesn't have rights.

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It is clear as a bell an the rules. The Laser must be built by a builder who has certain rights

 

Example:

The Australian builder does not have the rights to put Laser logos on or sell products as Laser in the USA.

 

In fact, it goes further. The rules do not say, " of used to have when the boat was manufactured. "

 

Strict interpretation of the ILCA rules says, " when a builder loses the rights, all boats msnufactured by that builder are no longer legal Lasers."

 

Has the rule ever been applied in that manner??

No

 

Should the rule be modified / edited to match the intent of the ILCA??

 

I don't know

 

Maybe some of the literal interpretation is the intent of the rule

 

Maybe ILCA does not want the top sailors to be forced to gather an Ausdie Hulk, English lower section, USA boom, etc

Maybe all we need is a simple edit to include the phrase "at the time of manufacture."

Of course currently such a phrase would be a problem.

 

All I'm waiting for is to see if the entire house of cards falls down for everybody. Maybe someday somehow someone will set up a business trying to build the most popular and inexpensive and fun one design single-handed boat in the world. Maybe that person will care about Sailboat racing and sponsor it and promote it and organize it and at the same time make sure the boats are available and will have racing again like the good old days when you went to Cork and there were 200 boat fleets . That would be wonderful

The rules do not say what you are trying to interpret them as saying.

 

The fundamental rule states The Laser shall be raced in accordance with these Rules, with only the hull, equipment, fittings, spars, sail and battens manufactured by an International Sailing Federation (ISAF) and International Laser Class

Association (ILCA) approved builder in strict adherence to the Laser design specification (known as the Construction Manual) which is registered with ISAF.

 

It further goes on to state under "Definition of a Builder"

 

A Builder is a manufacturer that has the rights to use a Laser trademark, is manufacturing the hull, equipment, fittings, spars, sails and battens in strict adherence to the Construction Manual, and has been approved as a Laser Builder by each of the International Sailing Federation and the International Laser Class Association
You will note that nowhere in the rules does it say anything about geography. That is because the geography issue is dealt with by trademark and other protections and not by the class rules. If I buy a boat in Australia and export it to England, it is still a valid Laser and back in 2007, I had this confirmed to me by both the association and by ISAF. I was just checking that nothing had changed and that the copy of the rules i have are up to date.
It is absolutely allowed to sail a boat bought in one jurisdiction in another jurisdiction. In fact, at most of the major championships this year, that is exactly what you have to do because so many don't have charter boats available. There is also nothing at all the class can do if you buy a part from one jurisdiction and use it in another. In fact, for most parts, it would be impossible to tell if that had happened.
Finally, your whole idea that if a builder loses his license, then all his boats are no longer legal is stupid. The rule clearly states that equipment must be manufactured by a licensed builder. All that matters is that the builder was licensed at the time. Once manufactured and having th required plaques and numbering attached, it is a Laser. The future status of the builder doesn't change it from being a Laser.
I know you have some gripes with the way the game is played and some I can sympathize with. However, some of what you post has no basis in fact and does you a total disservice. And if you try to come back, please quote rules from the current rules, not your interpretation.

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Why don't you break down the meaning of this? Who has won here? Is there more to come? And how does Kirby fair from this?

 

The things I posted? Fundamentally I think its all trivial stuff, but if I read things right then should Kirby win he will only win against Laser Performance, who no longer own the IP - trademarks etc. I don't think it gives us any clues at all who's likely to win the main case. But I really know stuff all about the strange US legal system. But for sure the main events are yet to come.

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Yeah, agree JimC. Big decisions ahead for Kirby, win or lose. I'll be surprised if Kirby loses - though this victory could very well be 'hollow'. Really it's about the right for Laser Performance to build a boat he designed, and asserting his ownership of his design.

Rastegar's retaining of the Laser Trademark is why the Torch name could become important - though nothing officially has been said, Kirby has implied that the Torch is on hold pending the outcome of the courts (his words). It will be interesting that in a couple of years time we'll still be sailing Lasers or sailing The Kirby Torch - but the racing will continue either way!

 

It's a huge shame (IMJ) that the ICLA did not honor it's agreement with Kirby and saw fit to side with Laser Performance - to allow it to continue manufacturing Lasers by issuing plaques while claiming to take the middle grounds. Perhaps when the dust settles, it may be good to have an open review of the way that the ILCA handled this - with a view to making improvements. (Though I can hear Gouv predicting the low likelihood of that happening!) That is, of course, if the ILCA isn't wholly replaced by a new ITCA, staffed by new officials, a suggestion that Kirby has made.

 

In the mean-time, Kirby has the support of Performance Sailcraft Australia, and a few Laser sailors like me have stated their support publically.

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Insert something like "or an entity that at the time of construction had those rights and approvals " and re read your quoted rules.

 

Then, take the phrase out and read it again.

You will realize,"exact wording grandfathering class legal Laser status for toys created by formerly approved builders is not included in the rules."

 

I am sticking with my position.

 

Again, you are trying to get a meaning out of the rules by adding and subtracting words that isn't there. All it says is that a Laser has to be manufactured by a licensed builder. Manufacturing is a one off process and once manufactured, it is a Laser. That status cannot change by events in the future because you cannot "unmanufacture" a boat!

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Again, you are trying to get a meaning out of the rules by adding and subtracting words that [aren't] there … you cannot "unmanufacture" a boat!

 

I do it all the time

 

Find hidden meanings or unmanufacture boats? B)

 

I've been sucessful at the latter, but not so frequently as to say "all the time".

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Gouv, you often have some interesting insights, but this one really is not only flogging a dead horse but also distracting from the main topic.

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Back when ISAF started their combined worlds for Olympic classes, the Star Class tried to hold out as the qualification system for entry was being turned completely upside down. If you recall, the class initially refused to award the GOLD STAR for the event. Paul Henderson slapped the class down pretty hard while waving the contracts under their noses. The boats were/are "used as equipment" and neither ISAF nor the Olympic committee is bound in any way by the contract to the class rules. In this case, some company will agree to supply boats for use at the regatta and then take them away. As an alternative, they could also require that competitors supply their own boats as they do in other classes.

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Find hidden meanings or unmanufacture boats? B)I've been sucessful at the latter, but not so frequently as to say "all the time".

15921, my first Laser in 1983 (?) - was very cheap and very old when I built it and very much in the process of being 'unmanufactured'.

 

Seems that every Laser I have ever owned was in some stage of being 'unmanufactured'.

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This isn't info, this is legal CRAP! :(

The Laser OD org. is too good to let this

Insidious bull shit take it down. Grow some balls and reorganize even under another name if necessary. To sit around and let the outcome of this crap dictate the future of the org. will be to get what you deserve. The org. dosen't need the Olympics to remain successful either as it was very successful before being an Olympic event. If the org. elders say "we have to wait for the legal outcome", tar and feather the bastards and throw'em out.

When it comes to "lead, follow or get out of the way" , just lead!

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The above link posted by Gouv is good, though personally I use http://www.plainsite.org/dockets/srr8dgkt/connecticut-district-court/bruce-kirby-inc-et-al-v-laserperformance-europe-limited-et-al/ where you can read the affidavits at no cost (or hassle). The one filed 27 May 2014 from PSA is revealing.

 

Agree with Blackjack2 in that a lot of the proceeding is legal crap - though necessary I'm sure to be procedurally correct... I think the one who is putting the legal outcome ahead of launching the Torch is Kirby himself, at least he has said as much personally. I think it's the right thing to do - to exhaust the legal processes - the hope is that the Laser name is retained and any disruption is minimal.

There are some points of interest in the affidavits, though mostly it's much ado about nothing...

 

For example, looking at the standard of 'proof' that Rastegar et al are presenting is disturbing - for example, Chris Caldecoat is alleged to be ramping up boat production, evidence that PSA are making Kirby Sailboats for the North American Markets. Dig a little deeper and you realise that Caldecoat's statement of ramping up production used by the defense was made in 2008 on sail-world.com and probably was related the world champs held that year in Australia. All part of the great defense that revolves around an alleged conspiracy. It's just that the conspiracy does not exist, though the parties named need to negate the allegations point by point. I wonder at what point the judges are going to stop this nonsense, or even if they can.

 

Can't wait until Kirby either wins through legal means, or failing that, wins back control by rebranding ...and we all move forward.

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The success of the motions to dismiss are quite significant.

 

Kirby's claim against ISAF has been dismissed.

 

Long term readers of this thread will recall that IPLore was very skeptical of Kirby's claim of tortious interference vs ISAF and ILCA. I explained that tortious interference had various pleading requirements, notably "intent to interfere" which I didn't think could be met by Kirby. The chronology of events did not meet the claim's pleading requirements. As ISAF's lawyers so eloquently put it in the final paragraph of its reply memorandum :

 

" In order to prevail on a claim of tortious interference with contractual relations, a plaintiff must show the defendants intent to interfere with the contractual relationships (Appleton v Bd of Education) . As all of Kirby's allegations concern actions by ISAF AFTER the builders had allegedly breached their contracts with Kirby, he has failed to allege that ISAF intended to interfere with Kirby's contractual relationship with the builder"

 

ISAF's lawyers also pointed out that Kirby acknowledged that ISAF stopped using the Kirby trademark after he requested them to stop, so any trademark infringement case fails.

 

And then to layer despair on sorrow, ISAF's lawyers tore into the whole jurisdiction claim where Kirby's lawyers had argued that ISAF is like an LLC (Its not, ISAF is a corporation) doing business in CT because it receives a fee for the plaques of boats sold in CT ( ISAF lawyers pointed out that ISAF receives the fee when the boat is built, not when it is sold).

 

This largely leaves the case where it always should have stood, as a simple contractual dispute between the builders ( and BK Inc).

 

The motion to default has been dismissed, but this doesn't get the Australians (Sailcraft Pty) off the hook, it merely gives them a chance to respond to the counterclaim. LP claimed in a motion of default that Sailcraft didn't respond in time , defaulted and lost their right to respond. The dismissal of this motion allows Sailcraft to respond.

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Tortious Interference must be intentional. It is not enough merely to interfere by accident or negligence.

 

BK/Global sailing's claim of Tortious Interference on the part of ILCA is that ILCA deliberately encouraged and induced LP to breach their contract with BK/GS. There is one obvious hurdle that they will have to overcome and that is chronology. The sequence of events suggests that LP stopped paying GS well before ILCA proposed the rule change. The second hurdle is that there seems to be a fairly cogent paper trail suggesting that ILCA had no intent of interfering with any contractual relationships, but their motive was trying to secure the supply of boats for their members. They even had a very public vote on the matter. You might not be happy with the result of the vote but it diminishes the claim of malicious intent.

 

IPLore, the ILCA was part of a greater tortious interference, not the diminished version you put forward:

 

85. On information and belief, Rastegar and/or Laser Performance paid and/or encouraged ILCA to
enact the ILCA Rule Change and paid and/or encouraged ISAF to approve it.
106. By continuing to issue ISAF Plaques and New ISAF Plaques to and permit use of
the LASER trademark by terminated builders Quarter Moon/QM Vanguard and PSE/LP Europe,
ISAF, ILCA, Karaya and Velum have tortiously interfered with Kirby's rights under the Builder
Agreements by encouraging and enabling the terminated builders to continue to manufacture and
sell unauthorized and counterfeit Kirby Sailboats, depriving Kirby of royalties in their territories.

 

It's the continuation of selling Lasers built to Kirby's design with the 'new' plaques and the sale of future Lasers that the tortious interference is in relation to. Remember that the rule change was only implemented 23 April 2013. New Plaques shortly after. Note that the tortious interference in relation to the ILCA was strengthened in Kirby's revised civil action, after the ISAF approved the rule change.

 

The judge didn't agree with Gannt with regard to ISAF.

ILCA didn't file a motion to dismiss but if this case is not settled before then, ILCA will file a motion for summary judgement.

 

I forecast that BKI's claim against ILCA now doesn't stand an ice cube's chance in hell of succeeding.

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IMO, the pfc request has correctly indicated the issues around the BK trademark claim and we should expect a reasonably strong motion for dismissing the trade mark claim vs ISAF. That is going to be an uphill struggle for BKI.

ISAF subsequently filed to dismiss the trade mark claim.....and the claim was dismissed.

Regarding tortious interference,the request mentions absence of "malice" and seems more generally relevant to a pleading for "business interference" but BKI are going to focus on knowing interference with a contract. I am mildly surprised that ISAF doesn't challenge that pleading more directly on knowledge and intent. IMO, there are slightly better odds of a pre filing conference with this request than LP's request....but the greater probability is that the judge will tell them to go ahead and file the motion.

The Judge told ISAF to file the motion. They did and they won the motion.

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The last time I indicated that there was a possibility that Kirby could lose the specific motion was actually my last post. Only an idiot would claim that the judge did not agree with me. I carefully put forward Kirby's motion, which was not represented in IPLore's posts which were heavily weighted in Rastegar's favor. My post was an attempt to restore some balance by stating what was in Kirby's motion. Note that I have previously declared not just my support for Kirby, but exactly who I am.



Why were IPLore's posts in Rastegar's favor? IPLore, is it true that you are hiding that you work for Rastegar? Really, it's time that IPLore indicated who he/she really is, instead of woolly statements advocating independence, which I'm sure will be repeated.



Also, exactly who is "Gannt"?? IPLore has attempted to repeat that same cheap trick again by misspelling my name. Either IPLore is trying yet again to inflame me or is stupid. Or both. Ultimately, it's not about me or IPLore, it's about the actions of Rastegar et al and the ILCA/ISAF supporting Rategar's (et al) manufacturing of Lasers with the knowledge that Kirby is being screwed. It's about the medium to long term welfare of our sport.


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. It's about the medium to long term welfare of our sport.

 

Well slight correction may be needed, It's about the medium to long term welfare of the Laser sailing dinghy. The rest of our sport will manage (shock, horror!) with or without the Laser.

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. It's about the medium to long term welfare of our sport.

 

Well slight correction may be needed, It's about the medium to long term welfare of the Laser sailing dinghy. The rest of our sport will manage (shock, horror!) with or without the Laser.

 

Many people may not like Lasers, but I don't think this is good for the sport. An inexpensive, widely sailed class like the Laser brings many new people in to not just sailing but racing. They may move on to other classes, but the Laser is a very common entry point.

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I agree with Jon711 that small boat, one design racing will continue with or without the Laser. In short, what I meant by welfare was that a diminished Laser diminishes our sport. The club where I have done most of my sailing is Pupuke Yacht Club, NZ. There, as a club sailer I have mixed with current world champions (masters), world ranked sailors (open), olympic reps and sailors that have gone onto to success in other classes. Laser is the only class that is sailed there every week. The Laser acts as a catalyst that takes club sailors and gives them an international context. In many clubs it is the last bastion of dinghy sailing, which is already diminished.

In some ways this issue has already diminished the Laser, energy spent on this could be better spent on growing the class, growing sailing in general. My perception is that is an issue in most countries with the exception of the UK where sailing seems to be in pretty good shape right now.

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. It's about the medium to long term welfare of our sport.

Well slight correction may be needed, It's about the medium to long term welfare of the Laser sailing dinghy. The rest of our sport will manage (shock, horror!) with or without the Laser.

Slight correction.

 

The sick and dying sport will continue to lie face down in its drool until any affordable well promoted " toy for everyone " is supported by a builder, local dealers, and a vibrant well organized promotionaly driven

class association.

 

Only if you believe that sailing can take part ONLY in SMODS. I enjoy sailing handicap races, knowing that some days the wind will favour me and some days it will not. Maybe you prefer to sail, an uncomfortable boat, which has sails that last a season only, but it is the same for all of you (If so then the Laser/Torch/Kirby Dinghy is for you). I also enjoy class racing in a boat that is comfortable, has a residual value, and has sails that are competitive after a seasons use, as is every one else in my class of boat. The sport is only "Sick and dying" (Your words not mine), because people are not prepared to get thier heads out of thier arse, and say that there are plenty of other better boats to sail than the Laser, and to give them a go. This is partly down to old farts in clubs not allowing handicap racing and also old farts who have been too involved in SMOD classes and who can not see the bigger picture. We do not seem to have this problem too often in the UK.

 

Jon

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. It's about the medium to long term welfare of our sport.

Well slight correction may be needed, It's about the medium to long term welfare of the Laser sailing dinghy. The rest of our sport will manage (shock, horror!) with or without the Laser.

Slight correction.

 

The sick and dying sport will continue to lie face down in its drool until any affordable well promoted " toy for everyone " is supported by a builder, local dealers, and a vibrant well organized promotionaly driven

class association.

 

Only if you believe that sailing can take part ONLY in SMODS. I enjoy sailing handicap races, knowing that some days the wind will favour me and some days it will not. Maybe you prefer to sail, an uncomfortable boat, which has sails that last a season only, but it is the same for all of you (If so then the Laser/Torch/Kirby Dinghy is for you). I also enjoy class racing in a boat that is comfortable, has a residual value, and has sails that are competitive after a seasons use, as is every one else in my class of boat. The sport is only "Sick and dying" (Your words not mine), because people are not prepared to get thier heads out of thier arse, and say that there are plenty of other better boats to sail than the Laser, and to give them a go. This is partly down to old farts in clubs not allowing handicap racing and also old farts who have been too involved in SMOD classes and who can not see the bigger picture. We do not seem to have this problem too often in the UK.

 

Jon

Agree that "sick and dying" may be a bit strong, but it's no less hyperbolic than suggesting if everybody that races a Laser gets into a different boat, dinghy racing popularity will soar to new heights, new people will flock to the sport in droves and all will be well.

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. It's about the medium to long term welfare of our sport.

Well slight correction may be needed, It's about the medium to long term welfare of the Laser sailing dinghy. The rest of our sport will manage (shock, horror!) with or without the Laser.

Slight correction.

 

The sick and dying sport will continue to lie face down in its drool until any affordable well promoted " toy for everyone " is supported by a builder, local dealers, and a vibrant well organized promotionaly driven

class association.

 

Only if you believe that sailing can take part ONLY in SMODS. I enjoy sailing handicap races, knowing that some days the wind will favour me and some days it will not. Maybe you prefer to sail, an uncomfortable boat, which has sails that last a season only, but it is the same for all of you (If so then the Laser/Torch/Kirby Dinghy is for you). I also enjoy class racing in a boat that is comfortable, has a residual value, and has sails that are competitive after a seasons use, as is every one else in my class of boat. The sport is only "Sick and dying" (Your words not mine), because people are not prepared to get thier heads out of thier arse, and say that there are plenty of other better boats to sail than the Laser, and to give them a go. This is partly down to old farts in clubs not allowing handicap racing and also old farts who have been too involved in SMOD classes and who can not see the bigger picture. We do not seem to have this problem too often in the UK.

 

Jon

 

Oh rubbish. There are many, many people who have sailed boats one hell of a lot quicker than your Blaze and then decided that they love Laser racing.

 

It's NOT the Laser that is the cause of sailing dying, if it is. What has actually happened is that many OTHER classes have dwindled while the Laser has pretty much maintained its strength, and in fact grown in some ways.

 

It's bloody arrogant to say that there are "people are not prepared to get thier heads out of thier arse, and say that there are plenty of other better boats to sail than the Laser". It's fine if there are better boats for YOU to sail, given your own tastes, situation and preferences. That does not mean that there are better boats for OTHER people to sail, given that we are have different tastes, situations and preferences.

 

 

PS- I come from background in development classes that would beat your SMOD Blaze senseless, but I don't abuse your boat because it obviously suits you. Why not give the same respect to Laser sailors?

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PS- I come from background in development classes that would beat your SMOD Blaze senseless, but I don't abuse your boat because it obviously suits you. Why not give the same respect to Laser sailors?

 

And so do I, I sail the Blaze for convenience, would much rather sail Merlins, N12's, Norfolk Punts..... (Too small for I14's, tried them!)

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Yep.

Sometimes its nice to have a race that isn't 90% decided in the first three minutes.

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Also lots of fun to sail with other club members.

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So the class associations are free and clear at least for time being? About time if so and as it should be. I was not following closely. Nice update IPLore. Thanks. Wess

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The sport is only "Sick and dying" (Your words not mine), because people are not prepared to get thier heads out of thier arse, and say that there are plenty of other better boats to sail than the Laser, and to give them a go. This is partly down to old farts in clubs not allowing handicap racing and also old farts who have been too involved in SMOD classes and who can not see the bigger picture. We do not seem to have this problem too often in the UK.

 

Jon

And so do I, I sail the Blaze for convenience, would much rather sail Merlins, N12's, Norfolk Punts..... (Too small for I14's, tried them!)

You clearly have never attempted to understand why people find Laser sailing so good or why the class is so popular. I have my head out of my arse and I am considering buying a Laser. It would be a second boat to my A Class cat. Over the years, I have seriously campaigned boats you clearly dream about, such as N12's and I14's. Add a few years of 49er campaigning, some foiling Moths, racing 18' skiffs on Sydney harbour and i think I can see the bigger picture better than most. So why am i thinking of a laser? Decent fleet size, very close competition, value for money, plus the desire to sharpen up on a lot of things you get a bit lazy with in fast boats. There is a reason why top Laser sailors transition into other boats pretty successfully and easily. And when i next see him, I will suggest that Robert Scheidt gets his head out of his arse..........

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So the class associations are free and clear at least for time being? About time if so and as it should be. I was not following closely. Nice update IPLore. Thanks. Wess

 

It is the ISAF which is free and clear, with the judge throwing out the case against it. I believe what IPLore is saying is that action weakens the case against the ILCA, and he expects it too will be thrown out soon.

 

What is happening now is after three years of lawyers dancing around with the builders, the class, Kirby, Rastegar, and all of Rastegar's shell corporations, the case it now boiled down to what it should have been all along - a contract dispute between Kirby and LP. I still have the same feelings about this whole mess, that lawyers will be the only people to get any money out of it.

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In all this has anyone found out under what legal status does the ICLA operate in the UK?

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In all this has anyone found out under what legal status does the ICLA operate in the UK?

 

Fairly sure that the ILCA is an unincorporated association, though I suspect SimonN would be better than me to advise. It has me wondering as there are legal limits to this form of entity in the UK, for example, an unincorporated association can't own property, borrow money or enter into contracts in its own name. As the ILCA has entered into contracts under its own name, then it may have some other form of legal status.

 

Or...

 

Just a thought. If the ILCA is an unincorporated association, and it has entered into contracts in breach of UK law, and if any person who was signatory to such a contract who still holds an official position at the ILCA - then it would be a really good idea to evaluate the continuation of such a person in any official role. Nothing personal, and for the good of the ILCA - it may make it easier to correct past mistakes and avoid that person being in the direct line of fire.

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Does anyone know more about this one?

 

US Patent Issued to International Laser Class Association on June 3 for "Radial Sail with Reinforced Luff Tube"

 

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P3-3326940321.html

 

 

I've seen this before. It was first filed in 2010, pre-dating the current mess. It may or may not be related to the proposed new sail design. Not sure how it would play into pricing, but I sure prefer the class owning the patent above other parties.

 

Looking through it, keep in mind this is a patent for a FEATURE of the sail (namely a reinforcing patch on the luff tube). It is not a patent on the sail design itself. If someone wanting to use a similar feature on sail for a different class of boat, they would have to negotiate rights to the patent from the Laser class. Also, they could go after anyone producing a knock-off sail that included the reinforcing patch.

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In all this has anyone found out under what legal status does the ICLA operate in the UK?

 

Fairly sure that the ILCA is an unincorporated association, though I suspect SimonN would be better than me to advise. It has me wondering as there are legal limits to this form of entity in the UK, for example, an unincorporated association can't own property, borrow money or enter into contracts in its own name. As the ILCA has entered into contracts under its own name, then it may have some other form of legal status.

 

Or...

 

Just a thought. If the ILCA is an unincorporated association, and it has entered into contracts in breach of UK law, and if any person who was signatory to such a contract who still holds an official position at the ILCA - then it would be a really good idea to evaluate the continuation of such a person in any official role. Nothing personal, and for the good of the ILCA - it may make it easier to correct past mistakes and avoid that person being in the direct line of fire.

doesnt charge VAT, so its a charity NO checked that so just what is it?

Always suspicious when none of its documents say what it is

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In all this has anyone found out under what legal status does the ICLA operate in the UK?

 

Fairly sure that the ILCA is an unincorporated association, though I suspect SimonN would be better than me to advise. It has me wondering as there are legal limits to this form of entity in the UK, for example, an unincorporated association can't own property, borrow money or enter into contracts in its own name. As the ILCA has entered into contracts under its own name, then it may have some other form of legal status.

 

Or...

 

Just a thought. If the ILCA is an unincorporated association, and it has entered into contracts in breach of UK law, and if any person who was signatory to such a contract who still holds an official position at the ILCA - then it would be a really good idea to evaluate the continuation of such a person in any official role. Nothing personal, and for the good of the ILCA - it may make it easier to correct past mistakes and avoid that person being in the direct line of fire.

doesnt charge VAT, so its a charity NO checked that so just what is it?

Always suspicious when none of its documents say what it is

Google says this (https://www.gov.uk/business-legal-structures/unincorporated-association):

 

6. Unincorporated association

An ‘unincorporated association’ is an organisation set up through an agreement between a group of people who come together for a reason other than to make a profit, eg a voluntary group or a sports club.

You don’t need to register an unincorporated association, and it doesn’t cost anything to set one up.

This isn’t a legal structure, so the association won’t be recognised by the law. Individual members are personally responsible for any debts and contractual obligations.

All the parties to the lawsuit had to submit a "corporate disclosure" disclosing information about their structure but the ILCA didn't submit one. They simply said in their Answer that they are a British organization.

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So the class associations are free and clear at least for time being? About time if so and as it should be. I was not following closely. Nice update IPLore. Thanks. Wess

 

It is the ISAF which is free and clear, with the judge throwing out the case against it. I believe what IPLore is saying is that action weakens the case against the ILCA, and he expects it too will be thrown out soon.

 

What is happening now is after three years of lawyers dancing around with the builders, the class, Kirby, Rastegar, and all of Rastegar's shell corporations, the case it now boiled down to what it should have been all along - a contract dispute between Kirby and LP. I still have the same feelings about this whole mess, that lawyers will be the only people to get any money out of it.

 

Torrid is correct.

 

ISAF has won its motion to dismiss. The success of the arguments in ISAF's motion strongly suggest the case vs ILCA is extremely weak.
ILCA has not filed any motions to dismiss, presumably to keep costs down and let the deeper pockets of ISAF engage with GS and BKI . However if the case is not settled by the conclusion of discovery then I would expect ILCA to file a simple motion for summary judgement.
There were two important components to ISAF's motion to dismiss that parallel ILCA's position:
1. ISAF correctly argued that tortuous interference requires "intent to disrupt" with contractual relationships. ISAF pointed out that the actions of the class and ISAF occurred after the builders had allegedly already breached their contract. Whatever caused the breach of contract....it was not the actions of ISAF or ILCA.
If anything the ILCA has a stronger position than ISAF on this matter because of the member vote. Just over a year ago I pointed out this critical weakness in the BKI case with this post in July 2013
Tortious Interference must be intentional. It is not enough merely to interfere by accident or negligence.

 

BK/Global sailing's claim of Tortious Interference on the part of ILCA is that ILCA deliberately encouraged and induced LP to breach their contract with BK/GS. There is one obvious hurdle that they will have to overcome and that is chronology. The sequence of events suggests that LP stopped paying GS well before ILCA proposed the rule change. The second hurdle is that there seems to be a fairly cogent paper trail suggesting that ILCA had no intent of interfering with any contractual relationships, but their motive was trying to secure the supply of boats for their members. They even had a very public vote on the matter. You might not be happy with the result of the vote but it diminishes the claim of malicious intent.

2. ISAF argued that CT does not have jurisdiction because ISAF is not doing business in CT. BKI/GS argued that ISAF received a fee when boats were sold in CT. ISAF quickly pointed out to the court that ISAF receives a fee when the boat is built (in Rhode Island or UK but not CT )irrespective of where it is delivered. The same applies to ILCA.
So yes......this boils down to a contractual dispute between the builders.
The parties seem to have agreed to a court appointed mediator. They will be busy preparing their presentations and testimony for mediation. This can be like a mini trial preparation. I have participated in my share of commercial mediation. We will see where this goes.

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ISAF was successful in motion 63, which I have just re-read. Here it is:

gov.uscourts.ctd.99988.63.0 01

gov.uscourts.ctd.99988.63.00 02

gov.uscourts.ctd.99988.63.0 03

 

There are four points made by the ISAF, any single ground or any combination would have won the motion. Here's the information online:

 

Minute Entry. Proceedings held before Judge Robert N. Chatigny: granting [38] Motion to Dismiss; granting [39] Motion to Dismiss; granting [63] Motion to Dismiss; denying [86] Motion for Default Judgment; withdrawing [94] Motion to Withdraw as Attorney. Telephone Conference held on 2/27/2014 re [39] MOTION to Dismiss filed by Farzad Rastegar, [63] MOTION to Dismiss filed by International Sailing Federation Limited, [94] Second MOTION for John C. Linderman to Withdraw as Attorney for Performance Sailcraft filed by Performance Sailcraft Pty. Ltd., [86] MOTION for Default Judgment as to Sailcraft Pty. Ltd. filed by LaserPerformance (Europe) Limited, Quarter Moon, Incorporated, [38] MOTION to Dismiss filed by Velum Limited ITM SA (Antigua and Barbuda), Karaya (Jersey) Limited. and 22 minutes(Court Reporter Warner, Darlene.) (Glynn, T.)

gov.uscourts.ctd.99988.117.0

If there is a statement stating the reasons why the motion 63 was successful, I have yet to see it. Has anyone else?

 

On what ground/s was motion 63 successful? Is only one ground needed or more? Was it Tortious Interference? Jurisdiction? Both?

 

Was the ISAF right to refuse issuing plaques as it originally did? Or right to reverse it's decision and approve a plaque that no longer had Kirby's name on it? Was the omission of his name why they approved it or was there another reason? So far, there has been very little said by the ISAF to it's membership (sailors).

 

Just because a legal action is successful or unsuccessful, does it make it ISAF's actions right?

 

More questions than answers, I'm afraid.

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Gantt, on 28 Jul 2014 - 18:02, said:

Fairly sure that the ILCA is an unincorporated association

Laser International Limited is a limited company registered on the Isle of Man. I think that's ILCA, might be wrong. I'd be surprised if ILCA trades as anything other than a limited company. It only costs a few £100 a year to run a limited company in the UK and there are major advantages in doing so.

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ILCA is an entity that collects money from sailors, equipment manufacturers, and advertisers. The fees are based upon the management's impression of maximum revenue from those wanting access to the events and the wallets of those who participate.

Its funds are mostly consumed as salaries and benefits for those who control the ILCA and those who publish and distribute the advertising they sell.

A very extremely tiny and minuscule scintilla of the funds collected by the ILCA go to arranging venues for major championships and managing those events but it is difficult to separate which of those funds are spent on employees and benefits as opposed to paying expenses for certain sailors who have learned to work the system for their own benefit

Gouv, are you saying that those at the steering wheel of the Class are acting contrary to the spirit of the Class and its By-Laws and Constitution?

 

ILCA By-Law 6:

 

1. The Association is a non-profit organisation. All profit and surpluses

shall be used to maintain or improve the Association's facilities and the

objects of the Constitution.

 

 

Constitution

 

3. The objects of the Association are

(1) to provide a medium of exchange of information among Laser sailors throughout the world and to

enhance the enjoyment of these sailboats;

(2) to promote and develop Laser class racing in all countries, under uniform rules; and

(3) to encourage and foster the enjoyment of the sporting and recreational aspects of sailing.

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Shall we say that there's always a trap waiting for administrators of an institution in which the continued efficient administration of the institution becomes a higher priority than the actual things the institution was formed to do. And as so if you're not very careful you can find that administration overheads that are not inherently corrupt or even unjustifiable have somehow come to dominate the budget in a way that eould have horrified the founders.

But I'm in no position to comment on whether ILCA are at risk of falling into that trap.

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Gantt, on 28 Jul 2014 - 18:02, said:
Fairly sure that the ILCA is an unincorporated association

Laser International Limited is a limited company registered on the Isle of Man. I think that's ILCA, might be wrong. I'd be surprised if ILCA trades as anything other than a limited company. It only costs a few £100 a year to run a limited company in the UK and there are major advantages in doing so.

 

I'm not sure that it's the same organisation:

 

Laser International - Isle of Man: https://opencorporates.com/companies/im/110297C (Incorporation Date: 1 March 2004)

 

Or for that matter this one:

 

Laser International Limited - Kent: https://opencorporates.com/companies/gb/01109276 (Incorporation Date: 18 April 1973)

 

I think they would have declared that they were a registered company in the legal process - which they did not - which is why I think that they are are unincorporated association. Further, the name "Laser International Limited" is not used in any of the contracts that they are signatories to, some of which I have seen copies of. They consistently use "International Laser Class Association".

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I'm not sure either. But if they aren't a limited company, they are silly people. Even dogwatch trades as a limited company to separate personal and business assets.

 

It's fairly common for international bodies to register as offshore limited companies e.g. ISAF (also in Isle of Man).

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You can search for registered UK companies at Companies House. ILCA isn't registered in the UK: http://wck2.companieshouse.gov.uk//wcframe?name=accessCompanyInfo

 

Further evidence that ILCA is an unregistered association is that an unregistered association can't hold property in its name. A search of the Land Registry for the ILCA's Cornwall office shows it to be leased to Jeffrey Charles Martin (not the ILCA). The lease was signed 3-23-04 and was for a 9 year term running from January 2004. Which means the lease has expired but the Land Registry hasn't yet been updated with the new Lessor. Wonder if Jeff signed another lease or if they are going month to month.

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Gouv, the head office is listed as: International Office ILCA, PO Box 26, Falmouth, Cornwall TR11 3TN, UK

 

Unincorporated Associations

From the UK government site: https://www.gov.uk/business-legal-structures/unincorporated-association :

 

 

6. Unincorporated association

An 'unincorporated association' is an organisation set up through an agreement between a group of people who come together for a reason other than to make a profit, eg a voluntary group or a sports club.
You don't need to register an unincorporated association, and it doesn't cost anything to set one up.
This isn't a legal structure, so the association won't be recognised by the law. Individual members are personally responsible for any debts and contractual obligations.

 

This from Net Lawman http://www.netlawman.co.uk/ia/unincorporated-associations :

 

 

Limitations of unincorporated associations

Because it has no legal identity of its own and in legal terms is only a collection of individuals, an unincorporated association cannot itself:
- start a legal action
- borrow money
- enter into contracts in its own name
- hold property
So if you need your association to hold property (for example, a club minibus) you must set up a trust or allow certain members to hold legal title to (ownership of) the property and assets for the benefit of all of the members.

 

If the ILCA is an unincorporated association, and contracts are in individuals names, is that the best way to run the ILCA? What would be an improvement?

How did a movement that started in North America end up having it's international organization run from the UK?

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I have a feeling they've recently moved everything away from the UK, Switzerland and Texas both ring bells.

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Does any one of you actually have a clue where the head office of the ILCA is currently located ??

 

As a long time dues paying class member, not really. Only random stuff online for, several years now.

 

And if you check the contact section of the ILCA website, it doesn't list a Texas address.

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I have a feeling they've recently moved everything away from the UK, Switzerland and Texas both ring bells.

 

Then surely it would have been minuted in a council meeting, and declared as part of the court proceedings. Pretty sure they declared that they were a UK based organization - but can't locate that after a quick look (perhaps someone could find it?)

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I have a feeling they've recently moved everything away from the UK, Switzerland and Texas both ring bells.

 

Then surely it would have been minuted in a council meeting, and declared as part of the court proceedings. Pretty sure they declared that they were a UK based organization - but can't locate that after a quick look (perhaps someone could find it?)

 

 

I am sure that every Laser class member in North America has been following the minutes of the North America Executive Committee that are posted on the North American Laser Class website and that, as a result, they have been reading the regular updates in those minutes about the transition of the ILCA office from the UK to Texas, the setting up of a US corporation, and the ILCA European Region administration being separated from the international office and moved to Switzerland.

 

None of this is exactly a secret. It's all at http://www.laser.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&id=21&Itemid=250.

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I have a feeling they've recently moved everything away from the UK, Switzerland and Texas both ring bells.

 

Then surely it would have been minuted in a council meeting, and declared as part of the court proceedings. Pretty sure they declared that they were a UK based organization - but can't locate that after a quick look (perhaps someone could find it?)

 

 

I am sure that every Laser class member in North America has been following the minutes of the North America Executive Committee that are posted on the North American Laser Class website and that, as a result, they have been reading the regular updates in those minutes about the transition of the ILCA office from the UK to Texas, the setting up of a US corporation, and the ILCA European Region administration being separated from the international office and moved to Switzerland.

 

None of this is exactly a secret. It's all at http://www.laser.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&id=21&Itemid=250.

 

Thank you Tiller man! (Of course it wasn't a secret, but it was difficult to find!)

 

ILCA-NA ExCom minutes - September 2013

b.Andy Roy gave a summary of a recent ILCA update. The legal issues with Bruce Kirby are now in the discovery phase with a trial currently scheduled for June 2014. The transition of the ILCA office from the UK to Texas is progressing with a US corporation now in place and the European Region administration now separated from the international office.

 

ILCA-NA ExCom minutes - February 2014

b. Update from from Andy from the ILCA World Council. Current legal action is pending with a court date still set for early summer. The European region has been split from ILCA and is now operating in Switzerland. A new championship online registration system is in the testing phase and should be live soon. The release of the new sail is on hold. 2014 Laser Handbook was shipped last week to regional offices for distribution.

 

The ILCA-NA looks well run, makes me want to move to the US and join!

 

So it's likely that at the time that the ILCA said that it was a UK based organisation, that it was true... Looks like there are changes afoot!

 

Here's the last World Council Minutes, Nov 2013 (Missed it the first time I read it):

Membership and Accounts: ILCA membership remains strong with over 15,000 paid members worldwide. With the transition of business operations and the incorporation of the ILCA in the U.S., the financial statements are now presented in U.S. Dollars. The audited accounts from 2011-12 were approved unanimously. In addition the 2012-13 unaudited accounts were reviewed, which showed the organization operated below budget for the most recent year due to greater than forecasted revenue along with cost savings. The 2014 budget was presented and approved, including the previously approved inflationary increase in membership dues and sail buttons. Although forecasts show continued expenditures for legal expenses, it is expected the association will show positive net income by 2016. The World Council remains dedicated to managing costs while providing high-quality service to all ILCA members.

 

The shift was not mentioned in the 2012 minutes. It there has been other mentions of it, then I have missed them!

 

This makes for an interesting twist to the legal case. Can the newly formed ICLA be held responsible for the actions of the old ILCA? (I realise that the members will hold them responsible - but I'm wondering about the legal consequences.)

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Can we hope for an armed confrontation of Lawyers for each side, large caliber handguns preferred, plenty of ammunition for each side, at close range?

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The ILCA-NA is so well run that they've forfeited their charter:

 

Entity Name: INTERNATIONAL LASER CLASS ASSOCIATION NORTH AMERICAN REGION, INC.

Entity Number: C2587492

Date Filed: 01/12/2005

Status: FTB FORFEITED

Jurisdiction: MARYLAND

Entity Address: 2812 CANON ST Entity City, State, Zip: SAN DIEGO CA 92106

Agent for Service of Process: SHERYL CAMPBELL

Agent Address: 2812 CANON ST Agent City, State, Zip: SAN DIEGO CA 92106

 

 

Which according to https://www.ftb.ca.gov/businesses/faq/728.shtml this means:

 

Suspension or forfeiture affects a business in many ways:

  • The business loses its rights, powers, and privileges to conduct business in California.
  • The business loses the right to use its business name in California. In turn, another business could register with the suspended or forfeited business' name, and the name would then belong to the other business.
  • The business cannot initiate lawsuits, defend itself against lawsuits, or enforce its legal contracts. But other parties can enforce their terms in these contracts.
  • If the business enters contracts while suspended or forfeited, it can never enforce those contracts unless it obtains relief of contract voidability.
  • Suspensions and forfeitures are public information.
  • The business loses the right to get an extension to file a tax return.

Too funny!

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That, Mr Gantt, was a hilariously sarcastic post.

The final statement was comedic overkill but your overall hilarity was barely diminished by it.

 

Actually Gouv, I didn't write that post to be 'hilariously sarcastic'; I genuinely believe that there are positive things about the ILCA-NA that at least on the surface seem to be well run. Regular minutes, published so the world can see them is a sign of openness - at least that's the way I see it. Me moving to the US and joining the ILCA-NA was more based on the possibility of that happening (I'm writing this from California). Aside from the complexity and logistics, an organisation of the scale completely run by volunteers. (I think they get travel expenses reimbursed only - which is fair enough). I'm sure that there are thousands of Laser sailors that have benefited from the efforts of the ILCA-NA volunteers over the years...

 

If the ILCA-NA charter has been forfeited then that's a shame - and I'm sure that the matter is being worked on in earnest to be put right.

 

With the ILCA there definitely are changes afoot, the formation of a new, US based registered association could be viewed as the ILCA in some small way rising to Kirby's challenge that has put it's existence under question?

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That, Mr Gantt, was a hilariously sarcastic post.

The final statement was comedic overkill but your overall hilarity was barely diminished by it.

 

Actually Gouv, I didn't write that post to be 'hilariously sarcastic'; I genuinely believe that there are positive things about the ILCA-NA that at least on the surface seem to be well run. Regular minutes, published so the world can see them is a sign of openness - at least that's the way I see it. Me moving to the US and joining the ILCA-NA was more based on the possibility of that happening (I'm writing this from California). Aside from the complexity and logistics, an organisation of the scale completely run by volunteers. (I think they get travel expenses reimbursed only - which is fair enough). I'm sure that there are thousands of Laser sailors that have benefited from the efforts of the ILCA-NA volunteers over the years...

 

If the ILCA-NA charter has been forfeited then that's a shame - and I'm sure that the matter is being worked on in earnest to be put right.

 

With the ILCA there definitely are changes afoot, the formation of a new, US based registered association could be viewed as the ILCA in some small way rising to Kirby's challenge that has put it's existence under question?

 

Gantt - it's not entirely true that ILCA-NA is run entirely by volunteers. The elected officers and district secretaries are all volunteers but there is also a contract with One Design Management for the administration of the NA office, publication of the newsletter, etc.

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Thanks Tiller Man... I stand corrected!

 

Given that the annual sub rates (for a regular member) is only $40 per member, I'm surprised to hear that the are professionals doing the job... though scratching the surface and I see it's Sherri Campbell and Jerelyn Biehl... honestly, I've helped run associations, have experience running publications and websites - and they must be doing it on a absolute shoe-string... I realise that the Laser Sailor carries advertising which must help, the website carries a little too...

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I don't want to get into it. You think what you think and its not going to change; we get it. But at some point after screaming the same message about a need for revolution, from the same moutain top, over and over for years and years, and finding nobody is following and helping to carry that flag, maybe its time to find a new hobby? Something that does not inspire such anger?

Sailing in a class should bring joy. If it does not why not find a boat and class that does and sail there. Sailing is way too much fun to inspire such anger.

 

Its good to see Gantt recognize the tons of good ILCA does. Sure there are some things I would change (no large organization is ever going to be 100% aligned with every member), but on the whole its a great organization and great class.

 

I'm kinda bummed, having blown out my second shoulder and tweaked the first (repaired) one. My Laser days may be behind me and that makes me sad. Can't imagine why anyone would stay involved with something that makes them so angry. The boat and the folks in the class brought me nothing but joy and the good folks that run it have done nothing more than try to protect the interests of the class members - in my opinion. Good on em!

 

It depends on your definition of a shoestring . When I ran the NA office as an entrepreneur, I lost money the first couple years while I bought equipment, but up a clientele, and learned the job but by year four or five I believe I would have had over 5000 paying members, revenue from the builders based upon a couple thousand new boats per year, revenue from sponsorships for the Grand Prix, revenue from book and clothing sales, revenue from a new Glossy yearbook, revenue from the newsprint newsletter, revenue from the website and
I probably would be making well over $100,000 per year plus benefits like transportation and housing for twenty five regattas a year.

This isn't about me. It is about my belief SOMEONE should be doing as described above so the sailing game would benefit and the builder would make a fortune supplying official toys.

Since 2002 I have been furious that the damned fools shut down everything I built rather than taking the machine I built and using it to continue and grow the game.

Realize. There are 1000 fewer. NA members than I had dragged into the association when I finished my term as secretary
1000 fewer members in a games where only about fifty percent of the local participants join the association.
That's 2000 fewer people sailing lasers than if they had simply preserved what I built

They chose not only to disassemble the machine and disperse the players, they have NEVER made ANY attempt to study what I did so they can do better.
The very least Usher and his team could have done in 2003 or 2 004 or 2005 or 2006 or 2007 or 2008or 2009 or 2010 or 2012 or 2013 or this year would have been to admit they screwed up and bust their asses to copy everything the guy they fired was doing

But egotistical selfish people don't admit their mistakes no matter how many thousands of people they hurt with their selfishness

They did more than kick me out. I am just .01% of those they kicked out. They kicked out thousands of sailors from Laser races all over the region

They destroyed boat sales for the builder
They destroyed boat sales for boats like the J-70 which could be selling to those thousands of sailors who honed their skills in Lasers

Even if you assume my thirty five consecutive months of membership growth would have for some reason suddenly stopped on July 31, 2002
( which is asinine ) ..

Every season since 2002 there have been no fewer than 1000 people who were not class members any more
That is enough to form ten fleets of 100 boats

That is enough to form 50 twenty boat local fleets

The selfish people still control the NA Class do not give a damn about Laser racing or they would have long since copied EVERYTHING I was doing that made the class work BETTER than it has worked since I was tossed aside by those sho simply did not care about anything other than being in charge themselves

Ok,,,, it has been 12 years

Is it time yet to pull the plug on the Usher Era??

The answer ??

Absolutely no one gives a shit !!!

Absolutely no one cares what the class does

Absolutely no one cares enough to even ask why the class has wallowed for a dozen years

Most of us who used to sail lasers have long since become old and quit giving a damn

The problem remains, some people who lack the enthusiasm to do a decent job are still running the show


There is no oversight because no one cares

Don't ask me or even suggest my participation is a possibility. I am WAY too old to do the job anymore
In fact NO ONE over fifty belongs in a position where enthusiasm matters

If you want to have a significant other or children or even a dog, YOU DO NOT HAVE TIME to run the NA class

We need a new enthusiastic fanatic sailor who is determined to make Laser sailing better than ever and the rest of us need to throw enough money at that fanatic to let the person accomplish that goal

I remain pissed because thousands of people never ever. Got a chance to play

And every day a few more are screwed by the current do nothing but still in charge selfish egotists who just will not get the hell out of the way

We don't need the folks who care about the association, we need somebody who only USES the association to make the game happen.

The resume of the current association management is 100 % described as, "we are people who have ridden associations and failed to adequately support the games as the numbers have dwindled "

The dying international Laser class hired the executive from the dying J-24 class and the NA laser class has allowed its inadequately performing staff to take on the management of the Sunfish class

12 years of failure has been reorganized to guarantee more


I apologize if readers of the above have difficulty figuring out what might be my opinion

Suffice it to say, I believe we were beginning a new boom in sailing back in 2002 and that boom was turned off for the next dozen years

If they started working tomorrow as hard as I worked for three years the fleet might be back to where I left it by 2017. Whoopsie shit!!! I will be 64.
That part of being pissed is about me. The game I love to play has been mismanaged since I was 49 and it looks like there is no way there will be a vibrant game again during my lifetime

Damn tootin

I am pissed for a damn good reason

I am even a little pissed generally at everybody who sails any kind of sailboat because every damned one of you has done nothing to provide me with the 100 boat fleets in which I enjoy playing.

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I'll just contribute what some local sailors think of the situation in a few pictures.

 

And before anyone gets excited about this, this is an unscored event that the SI's feature as 1 sail, 2 sail, and 3 sail boats competing in their respective sail quantity fleet. So no rights, regards, cares, concerns, or fucks are given, received, or violated.

 

post-3207-0-14788500-1407160301_thumb.jpg

post-3207-0-23369700-1407160311_thumb.jpg

 

 

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Gouv, where I cut my teeth sailing Lasers back in the mid 1980s, we'd get occasionally get 30+ Lasers turn out for the club champs. Checking the latest figures, the best turnout for the club champs for the same club in the most recent year's results is 8. The haven't posted the results for the last two years. I can name clubs that have closed. A can't name new ones that have opened. All in New Zealand, and mostly the decline had occurred in the last 20 years. In the UK, the Laser open fleet's national attendance is about half of what it was back in 2000. (I realise that your management of sailing may have been good - but did it impact other countries or is there something else going on here?) A quick check of the Easter Lake Travis event shows that the highest number attending (Lasers and Radials) was just over 70 and in 2002 - a figure that hasn't been reached since. So I'm not entirely sure that you can entirely lay the blame at the feet of the sailing management - nor am I saying that things couldn't have been done better - even great leaders make (and admit) mistakes - and it worries me when they don't.

 

Setting your personal issues aside, what interests me is what specific thing(s) you think Laser management could be doing better to increase the size fleets? (Perhaps this could/should be a different thread.)

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I'll ask the obvious. Why does a class sail cost $560 when a alternate maker provides them for $150-$180? The list of parts that cost 3x-5x of what another company is able to make a profit on includes everything except the hull. That alone dissuades me from too much activity outside my own club events so that I can fly a new Torch sail every year rather than beating around on a 3-4 year old class sail so that I can save my new'ish one for a travel event. I'm not attending several events in my own area so as to save my less than 1 year old class sail for the Masters event in Rochester. $250-280 for a class sail would feel like a bargain at this point.

 

Setting your personal issues aside, what interests me is what specific thing(s) you think Laser management could be doing better to increase the size fleets? (Perhaps this could/should be a different thread.)

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Hey FS. A picture can speak a 1000 words but are you sure its the words you want?

 

I think (?) you are a fan of BKI while I am not, but no matter. Your Torch pics are of non-class legal sails which is contrary to the BKI SMOD position, no?! :-)

 

If you want to support BKI you gotta shell out the big buck, pay the royalty and get class legal sails, LOL.

 

Anyway, all in good fun. Hope to see you tomorrow if my shoulder holds up.

 

Did you do Gov Cup and how did it go?

Cheers,

 

Wess

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I'll ask the obvious. Why does a class sail cost $560 when a alternate maker provides them for $150-$180? The list of parts that cost 3x-5x of what another company is able to make a profit on includes everything except the hull. That alone dissuades me from too much activity outside my own club events so that I can fly a new Torch sail every year rather than beating around on a 3-4 year old class sail so that I can save my new'ish one for a travel event. I'm not attending several events in my own area so as to save my less than 1 year old class sail for the Masters event in Rochester. $250-280 for a class sail would feel like a bargain at this point.

 

Setting your personal issues aside, what interests me is what specific thing(s) you think Laser management could be doing better to increase the size fleets? (Perhaps this could/should be a different thread.)

 

I'll answer as best I can a marketer - and as an outsider as I have no financial interest in the Laser (other than as a customer).

 

But first, my own negative experience. I bought a self bailer in NZ for NZ$95 (US$81). There were replica ones available for less ($65 from memory), though at that time I thought I was going to be sailing in the nationals so wanted a genuine part. (Turns out I didn't.) The official part came with a card that said it was made in Brazil, and was probably shipped to USA, shipped to Australia then on to NZ, with freight and margins each time it changed hands. Pretty sure that the total cost of manufacture can be achieved at less than US$10, and a less than US$20 could be achieved. The supplier of my self bailer (Dan Slater) agreed - we both shrugged, I paid the $95 and the deal was done.

 

I also replaced a Gooseneck for NZ$88 (US$75) - from West Coast Sailing it's US$53.

 

Sails at that time were listed as NZ$990 (US$843) from the local supplier (Takapuna Sailing Centre). A new Laser (basic, no turbo vang - again at Takapuna Sailing Centre) cost $10,500 (US $8,943) - these are all 2011/12 prices. Smaller, remote markets like New Zealand can expect to pay higher prices than larger markets closer to manufacture. The same three prices from West Coast Sailing are bailers US$75; Sails US$565; and entire boats US$6065.

 

I believe the single biggest reason for the high price is that there are too many hands in the pot. Another reason is likely to be small production runs which need to absorb larger overheads. For the Laser, there is also a culture of charging what the market can bear, this is a consequence of being a SMOD - a captive market - the most significant cost inhibitor is competition with other classes.

 

The world has changed since the Laser distribution model was set up, with the ability of more centralised manufacture to serve the entire world. This greater centralisation means less hands and more competitive pricing at all levels. In other words, Infinity Sails can purchase their materials direct from competing manufacturers, then sell direct to the consumer.

 

I see that there will be inevitably a change of manufacturer for the North American and European markets. Either Kirby will win the right to replace LP by winning the legal case, or will lose and proceed with the Torch. The best Rastegar can do is delay proceedings as long as he can - though it looks likely that he will retain the use of the Laser Trademark for the European and North American markets. When Rastegar is replaced as a manufacturer for Kirby's boat, there is the possibility to make improvements to the way Lasers are distributed, and possibly the way a lot of the parts are manufactured - and/or their distribution channels. Maybe the Laser has grown to the size where a not-for-profit association can run the manufacture in these two markets? There may be benefit in regular 5 year reviews of contractors for parts - where the prices are pitched for and quoted for a set price.

 

In any case, if radical changes were made, then I see no reason that the price of the Laser and it's parts can be reduced.

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It is completely unfair to single out a handful of people for what is going on in Laser sailing. The Laser class is simply collapsing under its own weight. Way too many interest groups, a completely unmanageable global footprint, plus the natural ambition/greed factor as entities jumped on the bandwagon when the going was good, then leapt off as things turned. There was never a class as successful on a global basis as the Laser (Opti's aside) and it will never be done again.

Overlaying this is the decline in the popularity of sailboat racing. I read an article in July's Money magazine on the decline of golf globally that cites 4 key factors as the reasons why:

- People are too damn busy, with leisure time for both sexes shrinking dramatically, noting the average male spends 2.5 hours of leisure time per week

- Elitest and expensive

- It's just not cool and kids are over-scheduled

- It's too difficult to compete once you get hooked

Sailboat racing shares all these factors. Recovery - or at least a halt in the decline - is going to be at the grassroots level with individual clubs getting people back out, regardless of the class. I am not sure measuring the numbers of boats at National Championships is a true barometer of sailboat racing activity. Boats on the line at week-night racing is a better measure.

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I'll ask the obvious. Why does a class sail cost $560 when a alternate maker provides them for $150-$180? The list of parts that cost 3x-5x of what another company is able to make a profit on includes everything except the hull. That alone dissuades me from too much activity outside my own club events so that I can fly a new Torch sail every year rather than beating around on a 3-4 year old class sail so that I can save my new'ish one for a travel event. I'm not attending several events in my own area so as to save my less than 1 year old class sail for the Masters event in Rochester. $250-280 for a class sail would feel like a bargain at this point.

 

Setting your personal issues aside, what interests me is what specific thing(s) you think Laser management could be doing better to increase the size fleets? (Perhaps this could/should be a different thread.)

 

I'll answer as best I can a marketer - and as an outsider as I have no financial interest in the Laser (other than as a customer).

 

But first, my own negative experience. I bought a self bailer in NZ for NZ$95 (US$81). There were replica ones available for less ($65 from memory), though at that time I thought I was going to be sailing in the nationals so wanted a genuine part. (Turns out I didn't.) The official part came with a card that said it was made in Brazil, and was probably shipped to USA, shipped to Australia then on to NZ, with freight and margins each time it changed hands. Pretty sure that the total cost of manufacture can be achieved at less than US$10, and a less than US$20 could be achieved. The supplier of my self bailer (Dan Slater) agreed - we both shrugged, I paid the $95 and the deal was done.

 

I also replaced a Gooseneck for NZ$88 (US$75) - from West Coast Sailing it's US$53.

 

Sails at that time were listed as NZ$990 (US$843) from the local supplier (Takapuna Sailing Centre). A new Laser (basic, no turbo vang - again at Takapuna Sailing Centre) cost $10,500 (US $8,943) - these are all 2011/12 prices. Smaller, remote markets like New Zealand can expect to pay higher prices than larger markets closer to manufacture. The same three prices from West Coast Sailing are bailers US$75; Sails US$565; and entire boats US$6065.

 

I believe the single biggest reason for the high price is that there are too many hands in the pot. Another reason is likely to be small production runs which need to absorb larger overheads. For the Laser, there is also a culture of charging what the market can bear, this is a consequence of being a SMOD - a captive market - the most significant cost inhibitor is competition with other classes.

 

The world has changed since the Laser distribution model was set up, with the ability of more centralised manufacture to serve the entire world. This greater centralisation means less hands and more competitive pricing at all levels. In other words, Infinity Sails can purchase their materials direct from competing manufacturers, then sell direct to the consumer.

 

I see that there will be inevitably a change of manufacturer for the North American and European markets. Either Kirby will win the right to replace LP by winning the legal case, or will lose and proceed with the Torch. The best Rastegar can do is delay proceedings as long as he can - though it looks likely that he will retain the use of the Laser Trademark for the European and North American markets. When Rastegar is replaced as a manufacturer for Kirby's boat, there is the possibility to make improvements to the way Lasers are distributed, and possibly the way a lot of the parts are manufactured - and/or their distribution channels. Maybe the Laser has grown to the size where a not-for-profit association can run the manufacture in these two markets? There may be benefit in regular 5 year reviews of contractors for parts - where the prices are pitched for and quoted for a set price.

 

In any case, if radical changes were made, then I see no reason that the price of the Laser and it's parts can be reduced.

 

I doubt the hull can drop much in price and I assume that the class gets a take, which is likely a very healthy thing for the class and I support that. I also support the idea of the class taking a cut from the sails, healthy classes take professional management to run and that takes money. The manufacture / distribution issues cannot be the problem for parts, you can buy the same parts for far less. APS has replacement bailers for $41 versus the $75 LP one. The repair kit is $14 and is not class legal, LP only offers O rings, otherwise it's a full replacement. These $'s don't really bother me, but the sail prices do.

 

The thought of paying $560 for a sail sold by 4 other vendors for between $150-180 is too much. Maybe if it were made of something other than an old style Dacron, I would feel different? I know from helping repair boats (thank you to all for the free beer and dark-n-stormies) at events and my own club that to many Laser sailors $50 that stays in their wallet means something so the practice of overcharging likely has an impact.

 

I like it when companies that make things or provide services I enjoy, make money. It means they will be around. But when it becomes obvious that the company is gouging...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Can't buy BK gear yet, they held up everything pending the lawsuit. I checked again looking at the sites nothing has changed. Other than writing checks and sending them to BK, you can't support him with anything other than words and pictures.

http://www.kirbytorch.com/builders

 

I do have the nice belt and pre-ordered to help support Kirby.

http://www.kirbytorch.com/store

 

Hey FS. A picture can speak a 1000 words but are you sure its the words you want?

 

I think (?) you are a fan of BKI while I am not, but no matter. Your Torch pics are of non-class legal sails which is contrary to the BKI SMOD position, no?! :-)

 

If you want to support BKI you gotta shell out the big buck, pay the royalty and get class legal sails, LOL.

 

Anyway, all in good fun. Hope to see you tomorrow if my shoulder holds up.

 

Did you do Gov Cup and how did it go?

 

Cheers,

 

Wess

 

Not enough crew, just 4 (J/35), so with the chance of the wind backing to require spin work and storms in the mix, I pulled the plug.

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I don't want to get into it. You think what you think and its not going to change; we get it. But at some point after screaming the same message about a need for revolution, from the same moutain top, over and over for years and years, and finding nobody is following and helping to carry that flag, maybe its time to find a new hobby? Something that does not inspire such anger?

 

Sailing in a class should bring joy. If it does not why not find a boat and class that does and sail there. Sailing is way too much fun to inspire such anger.

 

Its good to see Gantt recognize the tons of good ILCA does. Sure there are some things I would change (no large organization is ever going to be 100% aligned with every member), but on the whole its a great organization and great class.

 

I'm kinda bummed, having blown out my second shoulder and tweaked the first (repaired) one. My Laser days may be behind me and that makes me sad. Can't imagine why anyone would stay involved with something that makes them so angry. The boat and the folks in the class brought me nothing but joy and the good folks that run it have done nothing more than try to protect the interests of the class members - in my opinion. Good on em!

 

 

It depends on your definition of a shoestring . When I ran the NA office as an entrepreneur, I lost money the first couple years while I bought equipment, but up a clientele, and learned the job but by year four or five I believe I would have had over 5000 paying members, revenue from the builders based upon a couple thousand new boats per year, revenue from sponsorships for the Grand Prix, revenue from book and clothing sales, revenue from a new Glossy yearbook, revenue from the newsprint newsletter, revenue from the website and

I probably would be making well over $100,000 per year plus benefits like transportation and housing for twenty five regattas a year.

 

This isn't about me. It is about my belief SOMEONE should be doing as described above so the sailing game would benefit and the builder would make a fortune supplying official toys.

 

Since 2002 I have been furious that the damned fools shut down everything I built rather than taking the machine I built and using it to continue and grow the game.

 

Realize. There are 1000 fewer. NA members than I had dragged into the association when I finished my term as secretary

1000 fewer members in a games where only about fifty percent of the local participants join the association.

That's 2000 fewer people sailing lasers than if they had simply preserved what I built

 

They chose not only to disassemble the machine and disperse the players, they have NEVER made ANY attempt to study what I did so they can do better.

The very least Usher and his team could have done in 2003 or 2 004 or 2005 or 2006 or 2007 or 2008or 2009 or 2010 or 2012 or 2013 or this year would have been to admit they screwed up and bust their asses to copy everything the guy they fired was doing

 

But egotistical selfish people don't admit their mistakes no matter how many thousands of people they hurt with their selfishness

 

They did more than kick me out. I am just .01% of those they kicked out. They kicked out thousands of sailors from Laser races all over the region

 

They destroyed boat sales for the builder

They destroyed boat sales for boats like the J-70 which could be selling to those thousands of sailors who honed their skills in Lasers

 

Even if you assume my thirty five consecutive months of membership growth would have for some reason suddenly stopped on July 31, 2002

( which is asinine ) ..

 

Every season since 2002 there have been no fewer than 1000 people who were not class members any more

That is enough to form ten fleets of 100 boats

 

That is enough to form 50 twenty boat local fleets

 

The selfish people still control the NA Class do not give a damn about Laser racing or they would have long since copied EVERYTHING I was doing that made the class work BETTER than it has worked since I was tossed aside by those sho simply did not care about anything other than being in charge themselves

 

Ok,,,, it has been 12 years

 

Is it time yet to pull the plug on the Usher Era??

 

The answer ??

 

Absolutely no one gives a shit !!!

 

Absolutely no one cares what the class does

 

Absolutely no one cares enough to even ask why the class has wallowed for a dozen years

 

Most of us who used to sail lasers have long since become old and quit giving a damn

 

The problem remains, some people who lack the enthusiasm to do a decent job are still running the show

 

 

There is no oversight because no one cares

 

Don't ask me or even suggest my participation is a possibility. I am WAY too old to do the job anymore

In fact NO ONE over fifty belongs in a position where enthusiasm matters

 

If you want to have a significant other or children or even a dog, YOU DO NOT HAVE TIME to run the NA class

 

We need a new enthusiastic fanatic sailor who is determined to make Laser sailing better than ever and the rest of us need to throw enough money at that fanatic to let the person accomplish that goal

 

I remain pissed because thousands of people never ever. Got a chance to play

 

And every day a few more are screwed by the current do nothing but still in charge selfish egotists who just will not get the hell out of the way

 

We don't need the folks who care about the association, we need somebody who only USES the association to make the game happen.

 

The resume of the current association management is 100 % described as, "we are people who have ridden associations and failed to adequately support the games as the numbers have dwindled "

 

The dying international Laser class hired the executive from the dying J-24 class and the NA laser class has allowed its inadequately performing staff to take on the management of the Sunfish class

 

12 years of failure has been reorganized to guarantee more

 

 

I apologize if readers of the above have difficulty figuring out what might be my opinion

 

Suffice it to say, I believe we were beginning a new boom in sailing back in 2002 and that boom was turned off for the next dozen years

 

If they started working tomorrow as hard as I worked for three years the fleet might be back to where I left it by 2017. Whoopsie shit!!! I will be 64.

That part of being pissed is about me. The game I love to play has been mismanaged since I was 49 and it looks like there is no way there will be a vibrant game again during my lifetime

 

Damn tootin

 

I am pissed for a damn good reason

 

I am even a little pissed generally at everybody who sails any kind of sailboat because every damned one of you has done nothing to provide me with the 100 boat fleets in which I enjoy playing.

 

The Gouv used to show up everywhere Laser races happened. He hasn't made a national or international regatta in years and rumor has it he isn't even sailing in the Austin Wednesday night races he started and fostered for so many years.

He has been mostly absent since 2002 .

I count myself as one of the thousands who

NEVER would have enjoyed a single sailboat race without his encouragement. We rode our one speed bikes thirty miles round trip almost daily for an entire semester and even hitchhiked to Kent State while he was putting together our school's first ever sailing team.

Lord knows, I wouldn't be at a truck stop with a 48 foot sailboat on my LoBoy typing notes to Sailing Forums if he hadn't found me a summer job at Harry's dinghy factory.

Figuring or explaining how and why it was decided he is a dirtbag with no use to sailing is beyond my pay scale but I agree with him that the class organization quit promoting the game the day he was thrown out with the class trash.

 

Gouv's signature says it clearly. 3000 members.

He has made it clear he is too burned out to do it all again but I share his frustration about nobody even trying to replace him.

 

I think Gouv would finally shut up only when he realizes no one else is capable of replacing him.

 

Of course that would require he first realize he is a very special guy who has more talent and knowledge than the sum of the rest of those who now run the ILCA and he simply isn't that kind of guy.

 

He has said it over and over and over. "The class is supposed to be a tool to enhance the game. Currently the class spends all its money running the class."

 

Read a newsletter or look at the financial statements.

 

You may be sick of his constant ranting but STFU doesn't seem to be an appropriate response when the guy cares and is right.

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that to many Laser sailors $50 that stays in their wallet means something so the practice of overcharging likely has an impact.

 

Money and turnout..... I smell a rat...

 

Just had this debate with several laser fleet sailors at Corsica River on the chesapeake... Few pre registered... the on site registration penalty was cheap... only 5 bucks... hell the regatta was cheap... When asked... would a $20 motivate you to preregister by Thursday at 8.... the response was interesting..

 

Young guy... well...... yeah... I would have to make a decision by thursday... the cash is important.

Old guy... ... Laser sailors EXPECT to wake up Sat AM and decide to go racing.... If I don't like the weather... I blow it off... SO... they only do the pre reg for major events. (You are not the boss of me)

Semi old guy.... pre reg works against turnout... the good sailors look at who is coming and then decide ... not to go based on the competition... we loose boats with pre registration.

crazy guy.... well you know... Regatta networks is just Big Brother and many refuse to give them the information for privacy reasons.... so that hurts turnout..

Responsible guy...Well.... the only thing that works is for me to get on the phone and call up my buddies and convince them to come racing... .... I did not have time..... so.... (now that method is just so 1970s)

 

They all gave lip service to the point... Well you know... those of us running this party don't read minds...and can't order food on wild ass guesses... Having to type in your registration information... AND having to deal with the wrong sail numbers is not what a VOLUNTEER needs to be doing Sat AM..and running the scoring.. Lots of lip service from people who have never run an event AND has to make the numbers work out. BUT... the message was...

yes we understand your problem... but don't look at ME to help you out...

 

Seems to me... (also racing a single handed boat).... that a PUBLIC COMMITMENT by the key fleet leaders would go along way to supporting turnout. and MAX FUN FACTOR... coupled with a change in the fleet culture... the good ol days are gone... Now you have to work for turnout.

 

I don't think its about the money.

 

If the class doesn't want to attend... DON"T put it on the schedule.. and tell the club... you are not coming... OR... your few boats will race portsmouth

f cash is the issue... there are many clubs running very cheap events... and your class leadership should be able to pick them... over pricey events.

again... Max Fun Factor.

 

If cash is the issue.... the District could allow those cheap non class legal sails at most events and allow the class rules to apply at the couple of district championship events.. allowing you to save your sail.. if cash is the issue... this would save some bucks... while I suspect... nobody would protest you now...... Nobody want to deliberately violate the rules... so they pick and choose where to spend their time, money and now... using up their pricey good sail?

 

I really don't think the money is the key issue tho.... It just is part of the story from that old culture that doesn't work well for the sailing scene in 2014.. Now a days... "its about the money" is a weak excuse... Letting go of the bull shit story.. "its about the money" can happen... Hobie cats have given up the story that yacht clubs hate us and we LIKE running our own events... CHANGE can happen .... Oh... and Hobie and other cat sailors bow to no one... on the we are cheap scale...

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The Gouv used to show up everywhere Laser races happened. He hasn't made a national or international regatta in years and rumor has it he isn't even sailing in the Austin Wednesday night races he started and fostered for so many years.

He has been mostly absent since 2002 .

I count myself as one of the thousands who NEVER would have enjoyed a single sailboat race without his encouragement. We rode our one speed bikes thirty miles round trip almost daily for an entire semester and even hitchhiked to Kent State while he was putting together our school's first ever sailing team. Lord knows, I wouldn't be at a truck stop with a 48 foot sailboat on my LoBoy typing notes to Sailing Forums if he hadn't found me a summer job at Harry's dinghy factory.

Figuring or explaining how and why it was decided he is a dirtbag with no use to sailing is beyond my pay scale but I agree with him that the class organization quit promoting the game the day he was thrown out with the class trash.

 

Gouv's signature says it clearly. 3000 members. He has made it clear he is too burned out to do it all again but I share his frustration about nobody even trying to replace him.

 

I think Gouv would finally shut up only when he realizes no one else is capable of replacing him.

 

Of course that would require he first realize he is a very special guy who has more talent and knowledge than the sum of the rest of those who now run the ILCA and he simply isn't that kind of guy.

 

He has said it over and over and over. "The class is supposed to be a tool to enhance the game. Currently the class spends all its money running the class."

 

Read a newsletter or look at the financial statements.

 

You may be sick of his constant ranting but STFU doesn't seem to be an appropriate response when the guy cares and is right.

 

Particularly agree with that last sentence.

 

Most of us who remember what it was like would love great fleets to return. Seems to me like small boat sailing is under pressure from other directions as well. I just learnt the other day that there was nowhere in LA County (or so I was told) where you can launch a Laser for free. The source was a lifeguard who said was far too dangerous to launch a sailboat on the beach - I actually laughed out loud and asked if he was joking. He then said that it was against the law. Not having free access to sea seems alien to me - who in nearly 40 years sailing has never paid a fee for launching a boat - at times in far rougher conditions than I've seen to date on the West Coast of SoCal. Yacht club membership fees are obscenely expensive here - I have no want for a fancy building with a comfy lounge or for that matter professional club management - $1200 per year seems to be average. The guys at Lake Pupuke who operate out of a green shed staffed 100% by volunteers with an annual membership fee of NZ$60 have it more right than not. Some of those guys there have huge international experience - the cheap fees are there deliberately to attract sailors and it does. Cheaper sailing means its more accessible to more people. Maybe that's why New Zealand and Australian sailors have spent a disproportionate time in the top 20 in the Laser rankings - stronger grass roots. But I digress.

 

I agree with Gouv if he's saying that there is a need for big changes. From what I read there is a real need to both drive costs down and get real serious about injecting some fun.

 

That's something that we all seem to want - greater participation in Laser sailing - which benefits sailing in general - most of us get a kick out of being out on the water racing each other.

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You may be sick of his constant ranting but STFU doesn't seem to be an appropriate response when the guy cares and is right.

 

There is also a big difference between STFU and go do something that makes you happy but this thread has never been long on facts. :D

 

I am joking when I ask this but have you ever heard of Sancho Panza?

 

Using google or the like is cheating...

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Sorry.

Went off again

I don't know how to accept failure and give up

 

To Gouv (Fred). Completely disagree. Apology not accepted - nor needed. (Unless you are going to apologise about not spelling Gantt correctly!)

 

I think that your communication challenges are not so bad... (Particularly when compared to Rastegar's communications to Kirby's - who stopped paying royalties then in effect blew a raspberry at Kirby then says "so sue me"... I digress... again...) Yeah you've gone off the deep end occasionally (I don't think your last post was!) - and there is a history for sure - good and not so good! Perhaps one of your failures was to create lieutenants, to ensure that the good work continued? Maybe you didn't get/make the chance? Bottom line is that Tracy / Sherri / Eric are now running the show - there already has been some significant behind the scenes changes to the ILCA - I expect more to come. I think that Tracy is doing a fine job in a pretty tough time. (He has a far more diplomatic approach than I do - and diplomacy is needed in is position at this time!) We're all watching - I was a bit disappointed that the last election saw no challenges to official positions, let alone changes - meaning that nobody wants the jobs? Or everyone thinks the current people are doing OK? The Laser class is still in OK shape here in North America - there was a good turnout to the North American champs - 185 boats split into 3 sub classes - if not similar numbers to previous years then slightly more. My point is that that's not the sign of a dying class... but neither is it the sign of a thriving / growing class... My concern is that here in SoCal there seems to be very few clubs racing Lasers - or maybe they are just hard to find.

 

Maybe one day we'll see ILCA-NA membership exceed the 3100 again...

 

One of my favorite quotes is "Remember, no matter where you are or what you are doing, do the best you can with what you've got".

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10406546_701159636629558_191754826705355

 

137 Lasers rigging up at St. Francis Yacht Club...

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The Laser nationals turnout in the UK is weird. The masters event is far more popular.

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It's the same down here in Oz, in big rigs at least. No one wants to try to race against the full-time Olympic aspirants; even people who finished top 3 in the Open Worlds immediately before the class went Olympic walked away as soon as it was selected for the Games. Ironically, some of the Olympians don't turn up to the Nationals. That annoys those who feel that the Olympians think that the Nationals are not good enough for them, but on the other hand it could be that, as in some other classes, some Olympians know that they are at a different level and therefore stay away so they don't demoralise the amateurs.

 

The Radial doesn't seem to be so effected, probably because the numbers are bolstered by kids who still believe that they are on their way up to Olympic or Youth Worlds level.

 

The split could hurt the perception of the class because it makes it appear that numbers have dropped

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First, no one isn't sailing because of Laser stuff prices. But the folks I've repaired boats for typically are at the edges of sailing and the Laser is all they can afford and they make choices in their life to make it happen. It would be better if those sailors sitting in what really is the bottom of sailboat ownership, received real value for their money, every dollar of it.

 

I'm lucky and this isn't an issue for me. But with the number of events I have done in the past year, if I stuck to class only sail I would have to buy 2 a year at $560 a pop to stay competative. Just because you can afford a something, doesn't mean you don't care if you get value for your money. There are sails fom 5 other maufacturers that are the same shape but $400 less. This just doesn't make sense and I'm not willing to be ripped off.

 

I sailed a local event that was class sanctioned, not sure why though, we don't get travel Lasers for it and it doesn't count towards any series or yearly score., But I saved the class sails for another day. At the end of the event I notifed the RC that I was RAF'ing all of my races. I know how I did and I had a great time. I'm happy to cross the line having sailed hard, and RAF at the end of each day. I'll keep the good sails for travel events and pay to keep crispy practice sails at the ready the other 90% of the time. But, I will not be doing any regional events for another year or two when I've built up a stock of class sails, and even then I'll be unlikely to go to an event if I have to pull out a class sail and it's not an event such as the Maserts, East Coast, Mid-Winter, etc. It's a waste of money.

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> I saved the class sail for another day

 

Why did RRS 78.1 not apply to the event, or if it did apply, why did you not RAF for breaking It?

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I did, immediately after the last race of the day. Just checked, posted it when I wrote it above.

I will stop doing that after the next group purchase of sails. I'm waiting until then so that there are more people available for the purchase and guarantees that everyone gets the discount.

 

> I saved the class sail for another day

Why did RRS 78.1 not apply to the event, or if it did apply, why did you not RAF for breaking It?

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